Author Topic: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?  (Read 6285 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2010, 03:01:39 PM »
Quote from: fran
An completely selfish process is not going to give rise to unselfishness.

With what scientific or intellectual authority do you make that ridiculous statement?

Retract and apologize. Put your money where your mouth is, this is absolute and it is vacuous. Clearly, you need to apologize for such arrogance in ignorance.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 03:19:51 PM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Vynn

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • 1st an infidel, then a heretic, now an atheist!
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2010, 05:50:06 PM »
"Clearly." The word that makes correct every statement in which it exists, clearly.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2010, 05:36:28 AM »
The whole idea of God lowering himself to the level of his creation - sort of - temporarily but sort of permanently for the purpose of demonstrating love and salvation through suffering and sacrifice...it's so obviously metaphorical. You really have to invoke some tortured reasoning to imagine that the execution of Yeshua Ben Yosef, if he even existed (more likely a composite of several charismatic spiritual teachers who were popular at the time) is somehow a uniquely meaningful one.

I can see how it would be useful for a god....but only one that is not already all-knowing.  The experience of living as a human might give a goid insight into what it is like to think and live and feel as a human.  Trouble is, that only works if the god in question does not already know what it is like to be human.  For Jesus earthly life to be relevant in that way admits that before him, Yahweh had no real understanding of his creation....which might account for a lot.  Could even be said to be a god that KNOWS he's screwed up, and is trying to learn to do better.

However, it would ALSO require that his manifestation on Earth be just like any other person - and so no super powers, no "message", no meaning other than just living....otherwise he wouldn't "get" the whole human deal.  If a god ever took human form to know what it was to be human, he would have to live just like any other of us, and only find out after "dying". 

Which feeds back into the sacrifice part.  Its a sacrifice ONLY if Jesus had no idea who he was, and what would happen to him after death.  And if we assume all his miracles were real, then we can see that he must have had a pretty good idea that he was someone special, right up to "why have you forsaken me"?  That he was sure he led a "charmed life" right to the end - when it was already tto late to matter.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2010, 10:42:52 AM »
Hello Woland...
First of all, it is difficult to take you or your question seriously when we can see from your own words that there is good reason to doubt that you are sincerely interested in your own question or in having a serious and rational discourse.

why, Fran is back!  And psychic evidently too!  So, Fran, has your buddy WLC ever answered your questions so you aren't just spewing his nonsense?  Back after the usual couple of months assuming we don't remember what you've said and promised? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2010, 10:46:41 AM »
'Sacrifice' is a word used by man to describe what Jesus did.
Most words used to describe Jesus/God will not be totally appropriate.  They are a best attempt by man to describe something outside of his common understanding.
So yes, it can be argued that God's experience would not actually be a sacrifice in the same way that word is used for human experience.
That aspect of the OP is acknowledged as more or less correct by this Christian.
so considering this inability to actually make sense by God, a suposedly omnipotent being who evidently can't make itself understood, why believe any of it?  It all comes down to everyone claiming that they somehow "know" what God "really meant". 
To answer 'why believe?', I have started a new topic 'God necessarily exists - by definition' -

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13936.msg308829#msg308829
yes, please, dom, run away, don't answer my question and then try to redefine god to excuse your impotent and likely imaginary deity. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Immediacracy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 677
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?
« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2010, 08:25:49 AM »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgPFUwnp1oo[/youtube]

I think they pretty much covered it here. NSFW.
"That which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes–no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and that this is a participatory universe."
- John Archibald Wheeler