What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice?

[plethora]

Don Quixote...

From a human perspective... it seems like Jesus made a great sacrifice by allowing himself to be crucified.

Humans have empathy for other humans. When you see a human being tortured like that, you imagine how bad that must feel. It's easy to think that he is sacrificing a lot when you see it from a human point of view.

What many atheists in this thread is trying to explain... is that from Jesus' perspective (son of god ruling the heavens for all eternity), this is not a sacrifice at all.

Jesus knows there is a god and that god is his father. Jesus knows what's going to happen and he knows that after 3 days he will be alive again, he will be fine and then he will go on to rule in heaven for all eternity after a few hours of pain. Several examples have been given to explain why this is not a sacrifice.

There was the example of the King who spends a few hours with the poor people only to go back to his palace. A few hours is exaggerting because, compared to eternity in heaven... 33 years on earth is practically zero.

The other example where the father saves his son knowing that he will be perfectly fine after the train passes explains why this is no sacrifice.

If you told me jesus had gone to hell for all eternity... then that would have been a sacrifice.

[Anfauglir]

If you told me jesus had gone to hell for all eternity... then that would have been a sacrifice.

I was having this argument with a Christian, who also mentioned that Jesus DID go to hell (albeit only for 3 days) in order to bring the word to the souls there who had not had the opportunity to believe in him and be saved.

To which I pointed out that in that case, (a) hell was no bother for Jesus, if he could roam around freely and preach without being hassled, and (b) hell was no real bother for ANYONE, if they could manage to pay attention to some guy talking at them - clearly hell is not a place of constant torment after all.....

[plethora]

^^ Imagine a guy who has been suffering in hell for a thousand years and suddenly jesus comes by and brings him the word of salvation.

"So that's why I've been tortured for 1000 years!?! ... and where the fuck have you been all this time?!?!?"

[Wootah]

No, no, no! You simply don't get it, you silly atheist!

"Jesus died for our sins" just means that humans are sinful by nature and, since Jesus died for our sins, God (who is also Jesus) can forgive us for being as sinful as he knew we'd be when he decided to create us. Despite this, most humans will suffer eternally after they die - even after Jesus "paid the price" for OUR sins! Humans are very lucky that Jesus took the blow instead of them, aren't they?

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Woland

Thank you, I can't believe I never got that before!

Come on Woland. I won't expect you to surrender every point but you can surrender this one.

Consider it like a tab at a bar. You can either drink up and put in on Jesus's tab or pay your own bill but you can't expect it to go on the tab unless you ask.

[Dominic]

Christ's sacrifice was to show the way from misery to joy; a transformation from suffering and despair to an experience of Heaven.

God knew that we were 'lost' in this physical existence with many people thinking that the physical world (and bodies) is all that exists.  With this way of thinking there is no solution to the sufferings of life and there can only be despair about the end point which is physical annihilation (death).

So Christ came and showed us that -

1.  Death is not the end
2.  Suffering accepted (sacrifice) = unconditional love


He also said "take up your cross and follow me" (no-one escapes suffering in their life so why not try acceptance and surrender rather than resistance and resentment) and you will not only see the true meaning of unconditional love, you will transcend suffering, and you will transcend death.

That is a message worth giving and definitely well worth receiving.

[Don_Quixote]

Christ's sacrifice was to show the way from misery to joy; a transformation from suffering and despair to an experinec of Heaven.

God knew that we were 'lost' in this physical existence with many people thinking that the physical world (and bodies) is all that exists.  With this way of thinking there is no solution to the sufferings of life and there can only be despair about the end point which is physical annihilation (death).

So Christ came and showed us that -

1.  Death is not the end
2.  Suffering accepted (sacrifice) = unconditional love


He also said "take up your cross and follow me" (no-one escapes suffering in their life so why not try acceptance and surrender rather than resistance and resentment) and you will not only see the true meaning of unconditional love, you will transcend suffering, and you will transcend death.

That is a message worth giving and definitely well worth receiving.

Hm I hardly agree with christians but I definately second what you just said.

[velkyn]

Christ's sacrifice was to show the way from misery to joy; a transformation from suffering and despair to an experience of Heaven.

Assuming that one thinks that any possibly life without your particular religon is "misery".  Let me assure you, it isn't.

God knew that we were 'lost' in this physical existence with many people thinking that the physical world (and bodies) is all that exists.  With this way of thinking there is no solution to the sufferings of life and there can only be despair about the end point which is physical annihilation (death).

The solution to the sufferings of life is hard work to counter them.   And I find little to "despair" about death. It is part of life.

So Christ came and showed us that -
1.  Death is not the end
2.  Suffering accepted (sacrifice) = unconditional love

There is no "unconditional love" in the Bible.  There are plenty of conditions.  I always find this claim simply ridiculous, as if the Christian making the claim either has never read their bible or simply thinks they can lie about what it says.

He also said "take up your cross and follow me" (no-one escapes suffering in their life so why not try acceptance and surrender rather than resistance and resentment) and you will not only see the true meaning of unconditional love, you will transcend suffering, and you will transcend death.

and he said "give up all you have" and follow me too.  We see vanishingly few Chrisitans doing this at all.  I do wonder why then Christians fought the Muslims over the "holy" land if acceptance and surrender was so great? Or why Christians bothered with resisting the Soviet Union, the Nazis (at least some of them), etc?  I have yet to see a Christian "receive" any such message at all and as for "giving it" which version?

[SpineOfSteel]

Well said Velkyn.

Dom and DonQ, you guys are failing to address the point of how it was an actual sacrifice. We all (I think) know why Jesus supposedly "sacrificed" himself. Save sinners, eternal life, blah, blah, blah. But the question that the original poster posed was how was it actually a sacrifice? What did Jesus actually lose by doing this? A few moments of pain that are like drops in the ocean? A few days in hell (where according to Anfauglir's debate opponent he spent preaching and not being tortured)? And after that, eternal life ruling in heaven, a place of supposed bliss. I'm not seeing the sacrifice here, and I assure you that others are not either.

I could potentially equate this to: I will end world hunger by falling down and scraping my knee, after a few hours of which will be completely healed with not even a scar. Sure I spent a few minutes bleeding, and a few more minutes in discomfort, but afterward it was as though I was never wounded and I ended world hunger. In the context of my entire life, this small patch of time is nothing.

[Don_Quixote]

Well said Velkyn.

Dom and DonQ, you guys are failing to address the point of how it was an actual sacrifice. We all (I think) know why Jesus supposedly "sacrificed" himself. Save sinners, eternal life, blah, blah, blah. But the question that the original poster posed was how was it actually a sacrifice? What did Jesus actually lose by doing this? A few moments of pain that are like drops in the ocean? A few days in hell (where according to Anfauglir's debate opponent he spent preaching and not being tortured)? And after that, eternal life ruling in heaven, a place of supposed bliss. I'm not seeing the sacrifice here, and I assure you that others are not either.

I could potentially equate this to: I will end world hunger by falling down and scraping my knee, after a few hours of which will be completely healed with not even a scar. Sure I spent a few minutes bleeding, and a few more minutes in discomfort, but afterward it was as though I was never wounded and I ended world hunger. In the context of my entire life, this small patch of time is nothing.

EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

[velkyn]

EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

Being that we have NO evidence of any existence after death, your post is nonsense.  A sacrifice is not temporary. It's not part of the defintion.  Therefore, no sacrifice, and no analogy. 

[SpineOfSteel]

...
EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

I'm not sure I understood the last part of your post, but the beginning I do. IF we concede that his sacrifice was temporal, as you put it, now the question becomes, what makes this so special? Why should a short lived sacrifice be, as we seem to see it, so blown out of proportion? It supposedly brought on good things for the other people, so I can understand seeing it as being great because of the results, but why is the sacrifice itself revered as being so great? As I see it, it's more along the lines of a puny sacrifice and, were I a believer, a great result.

What I fail to understand is how believers can say things like "Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice," or, "He gave his life for us!" I know you never mentioned these things, these are just examples. People seem to think that he gave up so much to give them everything he gave, but as I see it he didn't really give up anything at all.

[Don_Quixote]

EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

Being that we have NO evidence of any existence after death, your post is nonsense.  A sacrifice is not temporary. It's not part of the defintion.  Therefore, no sacrifice, and no analogy. 

evidences?
EVPs, ouija, demonic possessions, exorcising houses, recorded ghosts in video camera, sounds. Special tv programs of investigators of the paranormal and spiritual world, including Discovery Channel. If that isn´t evidence, I don´t know what it is. Many people investigate this spiritual realm by contacting them. What else is that if not evidence? Delusion? 10000000 peoples delusion and you don´t? You are far more believer than I am.

[Tealeaf]

Wow, the lengths people will go to to defend their baseless delusions.

Like I said earlier, I started a thread going in depth on this over a year ago. It still hasn't seen a single rational defense of the "sacrifice" even when massive amounts of bullshit are pulled out of no where (I'm even leaving the bible out of the bullshit category for the sake of this context).

What a laughable display of dishonesty on all parts; especially intellectual dishonesty. It can be demonstrated with all the material given that this "sacrifice" is not actually that, and makes no sense. Yet the Christian continues to go on playing a game of barriers trying to make everything fit.... It's like trying to put together a 20 floor high-rise just demolished by explosives. Except....19.5 of those floors weren't even there in the first place.

[Don_Quixote]

...
EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

I'm not sure I understood the last part of your post, but the beginning I do. IF we concede that his sacrifice was temporal, as you put it, now the question becomes, what makes this so special? Why should a short lived sacrifice be, as we seem to see it, so blown out of proportion? It supposedly brought on good things for the other people, so I can understand seeing it as being great because of the results, but why is the sacrifice itself revered as being so great? As I see it, it's more along the lines of a puny sacrifice and, were I a believer, a great result.

What I fail to understand is how believers can say things like "Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice," or, "He gave his life for us!" I know you never mentioned these things, these are just examples. People seem to think that he gave up so much to give them everything he gave, but as I see it he didn't really give up anything at all.

Dying and reviving was just part of the process. He died to show us he was talking serious when he said he would die and be betrayed. He resurrected to show us He is God and nothing is impossible, and that everything he taught it´s true. Take it the way it fits you best. Call it a delusion if you want, as long as it makes you a better person. Jesus never said or taught that we should interpret things the way it was established. He also said in one of the Gospels "Here touch me, I´m not a ghost". What does he want to say? That he is real again, and resurrection was a fact.

[Noman Peopled]

evidences?
EVPs, ouija, demonic possessions, exorcising houses, recorded ghosts in video camera, sounds. Special tv programs of investigators of the paranormal and spiritual world, including Discovery Channel. If that isn´t evidence, I don´t know what it is. Many people investigate this spiritual realm by contacting them. What else is that if not evidence? Delusion? 10000000 peoples delusion and you don´t? You are far more believer than I am.

It might prove helpful to look up "scientific evidence" in a lexikon or on wikipedia so next time you actually know what you're responding to when asked for evidence.

[Tealeaf]

The 'process' he created himself....

Oh, oh no, he was talking serious when he killed himself to appease himself then revived himself! Shit, I'll remember that next time.

Nothing is impossible eh? Why can't I die and revive myself right here and now then??

Better person? How does bending your mind into some fucked up backwards nonsensical universe to accept a nonsensical "sacrifice" make anyone a better person? I have respect for the real people right here and now, or who died not long ago in real wars that people could see.... Not imaginary beings killing themselves for themselves to please themselves according to their own plans.

You quoted the bible to support a claim made by the bible. Epic failure.

DQ, are you like 5? Seriously, you people never sound older than the single digits in terms of age.

[SpineOfSteel]

...
Dying and reviving was just part of the process. He died to show us he was talking serious when he said he would die and be betrayed. He resurrected to show us He is God and nothing is impossible, and that everything he taught it´s true. Take it the way it fits you best. Call it a delusion if you want, as long as it makes you a better person. Jesus never said or taught that we should interpret things the way it was established. He also said in one of the Gospels "Here touch me, I´m not a ghost". What does he want to say? That he is real again, and resurrection was a fact.

First, I don't really care what Jesus supposedly said. I'm not even entirely convinced he actually existed, and had he he was just a man. Second, the way I take that doesn't affect my life one way or another, for good or for bad. No effect. None.

Third, your reason that this sacrifice was truly great was because the person "sacrificed" said so? Really?

[Don_Quixote]

The 'process' he created himself....

Oh, oh no, he was talking serious when he killed himself to appease himself then revived himself! s**t, I'll remember that next time.

Nothing is impossible eh? Why can't I die and revive myself right here and now then??

Better person? How does bending your mind into some fucked up backwards nonsensical universe to accept a nonsensical "sacrifice" make anyone a better person? I have respect for the real people right here and now, or who died not long ago in real wars that people could see.... Not imaginary beings killing themselves for themselves to please themselves according to their own plans.

You quoted the bible to support a claim made by the bible. Epic failure.

DQ, are you like 5? Seriously, you people never sound older than the single digits in terms of age.

Not impossible to him. We don´t know if we will be able to do so in the future, who knows? Not me. I quoted just a thing Jesus said in the Bible, to justify that what he did on earth was true and real. I´m not offended by the age thing. It´d have to be something better than that to even tickle my nose. I´m not the one who tries to look smarter than others and losing my humble feeling.

[RaymondKHessel]

EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

Being that we have NO evidence of any existence after death, your post is nonsense.  A sacrifice is not temporary. It's not part of the defintion.  Therefore, no sacrifice, and no analogy. 

evidences?
EVPs, ouija, demonic possessions, exorcising houses, recorded ghosts in video camera, sounds. Special tv programs of investigators of the paranormal and spiritual world, including Discovery Channel. If that isn´t evidence, I don´t know what it is. Many people investigate this spiritual realm by contacting them. What else is that if not evidence? Delusion? 10000000 peoples delusion and you don´t? You are far more believer than I am.

Woooow. You're one of those mouth breathers who sits glued to your T.V. watching "Ghost Hunters", jumping out of your seat every time one of the actors goes "What was THAT?", aren't you?

What a SUCKER. Dude, it's *ENTERTAINMENT*. It's *NOT REAL*. Do you believe everything you see on T.V., as long as the camera is shakey and the cast acts like they're not operating from a script?

EVPS? Ouija? DEMONIC POSSESSION? Are you 12? You should be embarassed. Gah... Please show me ONE solid image of a ghost caught on camera. Not a spot of light, not a blur, not a smudge, a ghost. You can't, because it's imaginary.

With billions of people on the planet, almost all of which have access to a camera for the past 100 years or so, you don't find it a little weird that to this day, the best "evidence' we have are personal testimonials and grainy, blury photographs?

Bigfeet? Chupacabra? The boogie man? The Jersey Devil? I've seen T.V. programs about the Loch Ness Monster. If that's not evidence, I don't know what is. 

I don't mean to be rude or hurt feelings here, but you're a chump man. For real. You need to stop being so gullible and do a little legwork before you buy into whatever magical mumbo jumbo your people are spoon feeding you. Because when you run around talking about fucking OUIJA boards (a TOY made by Parker Brothers or whatever), you immediately mark yourself as a sucker. I'm willing to be you've been duped out of ALOT of money in your life. Am I wrong?

[Anfauglir]

Dom, DQ, simple question.

What did Jesus sacrifice?

[Noman Peopled]

I quoted just a thing Jesus said in the Bible, to justify that what he did on earth was true and real.

Except it's not a justification. It's a mere descriptive statement.

So yes, if you wanted to argue that within the context of the story Jesus rises from the dead - the text strongly supports that interpretation. In no way except by assertion does it suggest that this really happened outside the context of the story.

In fact, it's actually a passage that can be used to support the notion that Jesus sacrificed nothing in the long run.

[Dominic]

Dom, DQ, simple question.

What did Jesus sacrifice?

Making a sacrifice = doing something you'd rather not do for the sake of a greater good (especially for others).

eg

- getting up to feed the baby at 3 in the morning.

- going to the dentist

- getting nailed to a cross (to assist mankind)

[bgb]

If Jebus was just a man who died and then came back to life the fable makes more sense.  Being god/man he can't die so its not a sacrifice.

[Asmoday]

- getting nailed to a cross (to assist mankind)

How is that a sacrifice for a divine avatar? At best this is a temporary inconvenience for such a being, but definitely not a sacrifice (an argument can even be made, that it's completely insignificant for a being of such magnitude).

Nice try at redefining the meaning of words. Going to the dentist a sacrifice...yeah, right... 

How is getting nailed to a cross a sacrifice for a being that is immortal, omnipotent, all-knowing? If you get a papercut, do you define that as a sacrifice too?

[Don_Quixote]

EXACTLY  happens with life and death. One may have happy moments and bad moments. Death is inevitable but it isn´t the end, no matter how injured you are, in the end you live. That´s exactly what he is teaching us about it. It may contradict, but the sacrifice is temporal. Few moments of pain against a day of resurrection = a lifetime of pain, suffering and joy against an eternal happiness in heaven.

Being that we have NO evidence of any existence after death, your post is nonsense.  A sacrifice is not temporary. It's not part of the defintion.  Therefore, no sacrifice, and no analogy. 

evidences?
EVPs, ouija, demonic possessions, exorcising houses, recorded ghosts in video camera, sounds. Special tv programs of investigators of the paranormal and spiritual world, including Discovery Channel. If that isn´t evidence, I don´t know what it is. Many people investigate this spiritual realm by contacting them. What else is that if not evidence? Delusion? 10000000 peoples delusion and you don´t? You are far more believer than I am.

Woooow. You're one of those mouth breathers who sits glued to your T.V. watching "Ghost Hunters", jumping out of your seat every time one of the actors goes "What was THAT?", aren't you?

What a SUCKER. Dude, it's *ENTERTAINMENT*. It's *NOT REAL*. Do you believe everything you see on T.V., as long as the camera is shakey and the cast acts like they're not operating from a script?

EVPS? Ouija? DEMONIC POSSESSION? Are you 12? You should be embarassed. Gah... Please show me ONE solid image of a ghost caught on camera. Not a spot of light, not a blur, not a smudge, a ghost. You can't, because it's imaginary.

With billions of people on the planet, almost all of which have access to a camera for the past 100 years or so, you don't find it a little weird that to this day, the best "evidence' we have are personal testimonials and grainy, blury photographs?

Bigfeet? Chupacabra? The boogie man? The Jersey Devil? I've seen T.V. programs about the Loch Ness Monster. If that's not evidence, I don't know what is. 

I don't mean to be rude or hurt feelings here, but you're a chump man. For real. You need to stop being so gullible and do a little legwork before you buy into whatever magical mumbo jumbo your people are spoon feeding you. Because when you run around talking about fucking OUIJA boards (a TOY made by Parker Brothers or whatever), you immediately mark yourself as a sucker. I'm willing to be you've been duped out of ALOT of money in your life. Am I wrong?

Hehe nice, so now Discovery Channel lies too about this subject. You believe it is all act? :S Besides not all cases have paranormal explanations. Only very specific cases can be shown to have no possible scientific explanation to what happens. You can´t deny that a lot of the registered sounds coming from this ents are quite spooky. What I don´t understand is that these cases have existed for hundreds of years, and up to this time there is no one who can exlpain how to recreate the apparition of a ghost or a sound they make.
I mean I have seen one too, but it´s so sudden that you don´t have time to think "oh my, I so wish I had a camera". Most of these things happen the less you expect it.

[Woland]

Honestly Don Qixote, when you mentioned Ouija (and the other nonsense including Christian nonsense), I felt I had a duty to make a special reply just to tell you to get informed about how logic, reason and evidence work and to stop being so very, very gullible.

I hope you take this seriously or you'll spend a lifetime believing whatever someone else wants you to believe.

You're doing it already.

That is all.

Woland

[mommykicksbutt]

Jesus just had a really bad weekend, besides he went home to daddy and is the spoiled little rich kid in heaven now.  So what did he supposedly 'sacrifice" again?

[dloubet]

Basically, to call what Jesus did a sacrifice is to spit in the face of all those who have actually sacrificed their lives for others. They lost their lives with no guarantee that they would be up and about, ruling the universe, three days later. They gave their lives staring into the abyss.

The Jesus character lost nothing. To call what he did a sacrifice is an insult.

[Noman Peopled]

Hehe nice, so now Discovery Channel lies too about this subject. You believe it is all act?

No. Some people really believe. And so what? Discovery Channel documentaries are not scientific in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't matter if they are believed and by whom, what matters is whether they're well-documented if not scientific.
Look, I'm not trying to be an asshole when I recommend you read up on what scientific evidence and the scientific method is. It's just that what you consider evidence wouldn't fly in scientific circles, and it can't but help if you know why, no matter if you agree or not.

Only very specific cases can be shown to have no possible scientific explanation to what happens. You can´t deny that a lot of the registered sounds coming from this ents are quite spooky. What I don´t understand is that these cases have existed for hundreds of years, and up to this time there is no one who can exlpain how to recreate the apparition of a ghost or a sound they make.

Specific cases can be shown to have no possible known scientific explanation. Yet. (Which is god-of-the-gaps at its best.)
There's nobody who knows how ball lightning works or how to recreate it either. And that's exactly what that means: we don't know. Nothing else can be gleaned from it. Note that while we don't know much about ball lightning exactly because it's so rare it can't be readily observed, we still can know some things about it.



Unexplained phenomena are unexplained, not supernatural.
"I don't know" means "I don't know" not "can't be known".
Shall I make a list of things that were once thought to be supernatural but have been proven to be quite mundane?