Author Topic: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice? (Read 16975 times)

Woland · « **on:** April 20, 2010, 09:05:57 AM »

There's a few (thousand) things in Christianity that make it irredeemably laughable in my eyes. Here's a question for anyone.

What is so special about Jesus' supposed sacrifice?

Frankly, I can hardly believe that I need to say this because Christianity is nonsensical from the ground up and it's unlikely that this will change any religionist mind, but I'd like to see if Christians come up with different answers than I've heard before. Who knows? Maybe there's a perfectly rational explanation for all of this. I will apologize to the first Christian who can make sense of Jesus' "sacrifice".

Here's the long short of it.

Before Jesus was crucified:

-Didn't he know with absolute certainty that Heaven existed?

-Didn't he know that, by "fake dying", he would somehow save mankind after a bit of physical pain and go straight to Heaven for eternal enjoyment of his mindless followers shouting praise at him?

So… based on the likely affirmative religionist answer to those two questions alone (nevermind all the other stupidities involved in this aspect of "theology" like trying to answer why, in the first place, God would need to sacrifice himself to forgive his flawed creation's sins - a creation he designed EXACTLY as it is, with his omnipotence and omniscience - when he set the rules for how everything works to begin with), what's so special about this "sacrifice" again? What exactly is Jesus' merit?

I'm not Jesus, and I would very probably give my life to save humanity even if there WASN'T any Heaven. What gives?

I'll be waiting for the inevitably perfectly rational Christian replies to this.

And sign me up for the "bit of pain, fake dying, saving humanity and eternal life afterwards" ride please. I'll be waiting. I even bought the nails already! We could use some bamboo to make it an eco-friendly crucifixion.

Woland

plethora · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:17:26 AM »

Precisely. Putting aside the rediculous 'need' for a human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for it's 'sins' ... there is no sacrifice.

People, real people, have suffered much longer and harder than Jesus.

naemhni · « **Reply #2 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:25:04 AM »

Quote from: plethora on April 20, 2010, 09:17:26 AM

Precisely. Putting aside the rediculous 'need' for a human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for it's 'sins' ... there is no sacrifice.

People, real people, have suffered much longer and harder than Jesus.

True. And for that matter, there isn't even any reason to believe that Jesus suffered at all, is there? I mean, the doctrine doesn't say that he had to suffer, only that he had to die. That being the case... well, if I'm omnipotent, and someone is getting ready to nail me to a tree, and for whatever reason I'm not going to stop them from doing it, I'm definitely going to use my infinite will to stop my body from feeling any pain.

plethora · « **Reply #3 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:53:44 AM »

^^^ Yep. Jesus could have been acting as if he felt pain without actually feeling it and no one would ever know.

Xero-Kill · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2010, 10:09:30 AM »

Even if he did feel the pain, I seriously doubt it compares to the months and years that a cancer patient spends in agony. I doubt it compares to having to watch as your illness erodes all the love and goodwill you have spent your whole life acquiring as your degrading body takes its toll on your loved ones as well as yourself. I am sure the people that have been bought and sold into all manners of servitude throughout the ages would find his pittance of a sacrifice to be laughable next to their experiences with suffering.

Then again, if he really was the son of God, or even God himself, then he knew that it was a temporary sacrifice and he knew that the pain would ebb eventually. I suppose one could say that of the dying cancer patient, but they don't get to live with the certainty of their salvation, so I am sure that plagues their thoughts throughout the process as well.

I just want to know why we still have all this sin if that is what his death was supposed to cure. You hear it all the time: "Jesus died for our sins!" and yet, evil still prevails. So, did it fail?

Woland · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2010, 10:44:49 AM »

Quote from: Xero-Kill on April 20, 2010, 10:09:30 AM

Even if he did feel the pain, I seriously doubt it compares to the months and years that a cancer patient spends in agony. I doubt it compares to having to watch as your illness erodes all the love and goodwill you have spent your whole life acquiring as your degrading body takes its toll on your loved ones as well as yourself. I am sure the people that have been bought and sold into all manners of servitude throughout the ages would find his pittance of a sacrifice to be laughable next to their experiences with suffering.

Then again, if he really was the son of God, or even God himself, then he knew that it was a temporary sacrifice and he knew that the pain would ebb eventually. I suppose one could say that of the dying cancer patient, but they don't get to live with the certainty of their salvation, so I am sure that plagues their thoughts throughout the process as well.

I just want to know why we still have all this sin if that is what his death was supposed to cure. You hear it all the time: "Jesus died for our sins!" and yet, evil still prevails. So, did it fail?

No, no, no! You simply don't get it, you silly atheist!

"Jesus died for our sins" just means that humans are sinful by nature and, since Jesus died for our sins, God (who is also Jesus) can forgive us for being as sinful as he knew we'd be when he decided to create us. Despite this, most humans will suffer eternally after they die - even after Jesus "paid the price" for OUR sins! Humans are very lucky that Jesus took the blow instead of them, aren't they?

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Woland

Tealeaf · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2010, 01:14:24 PM »

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5488.0

Buddy, I feel your pain. ^^ That thread is like a year old now.... And I've still yet to even get a Christian to wrap their head around it. That thread actually resulted in one Christian, one by the name of "Logical Christian" PM'ing me and conceding that he could not answer the question and that he was 'too busy' to spend time on this site and he'd be leaving. He had been back after he said that (typical, lying snake) but it doesn't seem like he did anything much.

Notice the thread goes on for 5 pages with nothing but the finest batshit insanity people can make up to hopelessly defend this fatal flaw in this religion.

And it is indeed the biggest smoking hole for me. The is no sacrifice! It makes absolutley no sense. And you cannot, absolutley any way possible, use any scripture or anything short of just making up more stuff out of no where, reconcile it with anything sensible.

But they'd rather persist in the delusion. It really shows the lengths of non-thought happily employed by Christians.

Jessie · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2010, 01:45:18 PM »

Yep, it's not a sacrifice. When you sacrifice something, it means you know you are giving it up...FOREVER, but when you allow yourself to be killed, knowing in advance you'd rise from the dead three days later, it's not a real sacrifice. And plus, he's God, so what exactly did he sacrifice? And plus there's the fact that God knew in advance people weren't going to live up to his standards. So...he's sacrificing himself to himself to appease himself from something that he created....WUT?

And also never mind the fact that we're still doomed to burn for eternity if we don't kiss God's ass, so what was the real point of the sacrifice anyway?

Nam · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2010, 02:19:19 PM »

There's nothing special about it; it was done before in other religions.

-Nam

Noman Peopled · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2010, 02:26:09 PM »

Quote from: Woland on April 20, 2010, 10:44:49 AM

No, no, no! You simply don't get it, you silly atheist!

"Jesus died for our sins" just means that humans are sinful by nature and, since Jesus died for our sins, God (who is also Jesus) can forgive us for being as sinful as he knew we'd be when he decided to create us. Despite this, most humans will suffer eternally after they die - even after Jesus "paid the price" for OUR sins! Humans are very lucky that Jesus took the blow instead of them, aren't they?

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Woland

Thank you, I can't believe I never got that before!

Wait a minute ...

nogodsforme · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2010, 03:16:02 PM »

Agreed-- people undergo worse stuff than Jesus did all the time, without any promise of ruling forever in heaven. I think childbirth hurts worse and for longer-- and no woman knows for sure that she is going to survive it!

People voluntarily get nailed to crosses in Catholic Easter rituals every year. I wonder if anyone ever thinks, "What sacrifice? How can this crucifixion thing be that big a deal if my loser brother-in-law can do it....?"

Tealeaf · « **Reply #11 on:** April 20, 2010, 05:31:57 PM »

I recall watching this one documentary some time ago that displayed how the crucifixion (hehe FICTION) story as displayed is not even possible. Something about the position making it impossible to breath and thus death occurs within minutes....not the drawn out 'suffering' that is depicted most popularly.

Either way, while it would suck so doubt to be nailed to a cross, there's plenty of worse ways to go.... On the cross you'd be looking at bleeding to death or passing out then dying. Not exactly comparable to suffering for 4 years with cancer and then dying, etc. etc. etc. etc.

bgb · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2010, 06:26:57 PM »

God sacrificed himself to himself because of his rules. Yea makes perfect. sense.

jetson · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2010, 07:07:29 PM »

Jesus was a common criminal, killed in a common way, along with other common criminals. End of story. Hell, he may have been completely innocent, but that's never stopped anyone from killing an alleged criminal before.

Noman Peopled · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2010, 04:25:11 AM »

Quote from: jetson on April 20, 2010, 07:07:29 PM

Jesus was a common criminal, killed in a common way, along with other common criminals. End of story. Hell, he may have been completely innocent, but that's never stopped anyone from killing an alleged criminal before.

I've read someplace that once after a slave uprising in the Roman empire, 3000 slaves were crucified as an example to other slaves. If I only could remember where so I could cite an actual source ...
So yeah, the most revered symbol of the christian faith is a torture/execution instrument. I'd have gone with the fish, but what do I know.

plethora · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2010, 04:39:30 AM »

Quote from: Tealeaf on April 20, 2010, 05:31:57 PM

I recall watching this one documentary some time ago that displayed how the crucifixion (hehe FICTION) story as displayed is not even possible. Something about the position making it impossible to breath and thus death occurs within minutes....not the drawn out 'suffering' that is depicted most popularly.

Yeah... I read somewhere that apparently they would have had to drive the nails through the wrists rather than the palms of the hands and a foot rest and/or saddle of some kind would be necessary to avoid putting all the weight on the wrists, thus allowing the prisoner to be able to inhale and draw out the process.

Any who... I don't care if he had been tortured non-stop for 100 years... it's still no sacrifice.

Anfauglir · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2010, 06:43:23 AM »

God, presumably, is eternal. Never ending. Eternity is a reeeeeely long time - but let's give it a number. The Earth is - according to the Bible - some 6,000 years old. Let's add a few hundred before that, and lets also assume that eternity is going to go on long after the Earth ends as per the Revelation. Call "eternity" some 20,000 years - no way is that eternity, but it'll do.

God spent 30 years of his 20,000 year existence on earth, with no status and living as a commoner. 0.15% of his span of existence. To a 3-score-and-ten human, that's the equivalent of about 38 days. So what they are calling a sacrifice is the equivalent of a king choosing to live amongst the common people for just over a month, enduring hardship and pain....but then returning to his castle and all his power and status and priviledge at the end of those few weeks.

Yes. It's a sacrifice, I grant you that. But as a period of total life, it's the equivalent of observing Lent ONCE during an earthly life. Nothing gets given up permanently. And, let's not forget, this is assuming a VERY small eternity of 20,000 years. Make eternity something more realistic - say, 2,000,000 years (which is still a mighty small eternity) and that 38 day equivalent becomes 9 hours - a longish working day. Make eternity something close to the age of the universe so far - some 13,000,000,000 years - and that "sacrifice" drops to the equivalent of something akin to 5 seconds.

The point I'm trying to make is that as a fraction of a being's total existence, the time "sacrificed" on earth was next to nothing. And at the end of that teeny-tiny period, ALL Christ's power and status and wonder was resumed.

I'm not saying that it was a pleasant experience for him. I wouldn't be thrilled at the prospect of spending 6 weeks in a famine-struck village in central Africa where they spent the last week beating me up. But if at the end of that week I went home with all my injuries healed, and with the knowledge that I'd helped a lot of people of my own volition, then I'd count it time well spent as I returned to the next 30 years of soft pillows, clean water, and good living.

Sacrifice? Yes. Sure. Just not a particularly big or meaningful one. For god, the equivalent of (for one single occasion in eternity) foregoing having sugar in his coffee.

Joseph · « **Reply #17 on:** April 21, 2010, 08:16:59 AM »

Quote from: plethora on April 20, 2010, 09:17:26 AM

Precisely. Putting aside the rediculous 'need' for a human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for it's 'sins' ... there is no sacrifice.

People, real people, have suffered much longer and harder than Jesus.

This is a passage from http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/2seth.html

'For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. '

If this is true then, Jebus did not feel the pain of His sacrifice.

velkyn · « **Reply #18 on:** April 21, 2010, 10:53:05 AM »

Quote from: Tealeaf on April 20, 2010, 05:31:57 PM

I recall watching this one documentary some time ago that displayed how the crucifixion (hehe FICTION) story as displayed is not even possible. Something about the position making it impossible to breath and thus death occurs within minutes....not the drawn out 'suffering' that is depicted most popularly.

I believe that is complete nonsense. What about being suspended by your arms would kill you? And as it seems from wht the gospels actually say, it wasn't long at all between nailing and the last words, whatever version is claimed.

Nam · « **Reply #19 on:** April 21, 2010, 04:13:06 PM »

Quote from: Noman Peopled on April 21, 2010, 04:25:11 AM

So yeah, the most revered symbol of the christian faith is a torture/execution instrument. I'd have gone with the fish, but what do I know.

And they wear it around their necks proudly. Nail it to walls proudly (no pun attended). etc., It's a torture device that probably, in some places in Africa and Asia, is still in use today (usually against Christians but not always).

-Nam

Don_Quixote · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2010, 04:31:09 PM »

Quote from: Woland on April 20, 2010, 09:05:57 AM

There's a few (thousand) things in Christianity that make it irredeemably laughable in my eyes. Here's a question for anyone.

What is so special about Jesus' supposed sacrifice?

Frankly, I can hardly believe that I need to say this because Christianity is nonsensical from the ground up and it's unlikely that this will change any religionist mind, but I'd like to see if Christians come up with different answers than I've heard before. Who knows? Maybe there's a perfectly rational explanation for all of this. I will apologize to the first Christian who can make sense of Jesus' "sacrifice".

Here's the long short of it.

Before Jesus was crucified:

-Didn't he know with absolute certainty that Heaven existed?

-Didn't he know that, by "fake dying", he would somehow save mankind after a bit of physical pain and go straight to Heaven for eternal enjoyment of his mindless followers shouting praise at him?

So… based on the likely affirmative religionist answer to those two questions alone (nevermind all the other stupidities involved in this aspect of "theology" like trying to answer why, in the first place, God would need to sacrifice himself to forgive his flawed creation's sins - a creation he designed EXACTLY as it is, with his omnipotence and omniscience - when he set the rules for how everything works to begin with), what's so special about this "sacrifice" again? What exactly is Jesus' merit?

I'm not Jesus, and I would very probably give my life to save humanity even if there WASN'T any Heaven. What gives?

I'll be waiting for the inevitably perfectly rational Christian replies to this.

And sign me up for the "bit of pain, fake dying, saving humanity and eternal life afterwards" ride please. I'll be waiting. I even bought the nails already! We could use some bamboo to make it an eco-friendly crucifixion.

Woland

There has been long time since I haven't responded.
Just a little bit of logic and this all event might make sense to you. Imagine if by any chance Jesus never sacrificed himself? What would be the teaching to the students if the master doesn't apply what he is teaching? How would he asks us for sacrifices when he never did? Seeing it at a more objective way, he had the so called "power" to not face his destiny, yet he let it happen. Even when he was about to regret about it, he kept going with his mission. (Father, take away this cup for I don't want its taste) Don't really know how is this verse in english as I talk in spanish, but you get my point. It's not about who suffered more, of course there are people who suffer in worse ways. We have to look at it at its unfairness. It's not fair that people suffer, specially the most innocent. If Jesus had been guilty, there wouldn't be a reason to remember how he was.

SpineOfSteel · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:10:34 PM »

Quote from: Don_Quixote on April 21, 2010, 04:31:09 PM

...

There has been long time since I haven't responded.
Just a little bit of logic and this all event might make sense to you. Imagine if by any chance Jesus never sacrificed himself? What would be the teaching to the students if the master doesn't apply what he is teaching? How would he asks us for sacrifices when he never did? Seeing it at a more objective way, he had the so called "power" to not face his destiny, yet he let it happen. Even when he was about to regret about it, he kept going with his mission. (Father, take away this cup for I don't want its taste) Don't really know how is this verse in english as I talk in spanish, but you get my point. It's not about who suffered more, of course there are people who suffer in worse ways. We have to look at it at its unfairness. It's not fair that people suffer, specially the most innocent. If Jesus had been guilty, there wouldn't be a reason to remember how he was.

I think you misunderstood his post, which could either be choice or just the language barrier. He isn't asking why Jesus sacrificed himself, but rather why it is special. Jesus got a whole lot of perks for being dead for less than 72 hours. Can it really be considered a sacrifice if you gain from it?

Don_Quixote · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »

Quote from: SpineOfSteel on April 21, 2010, 05:10:34 PM

Quote from: Don_Quixote on April 21, 2010, 04:31:09 PM
...

There has been long time since I haven't responded.
Just a little bit of logic and this all event might make sense to you. Imagine if by any chance Jesus never sacrificed himself? What would be the teaching to the students if the master doesn't apply what he is teaching? How would he asks us for sacrifices when he never did? Seeing it at a more objective way, he had the so called "power" to not face his destiny, yet he let it happen. Even when he was about to regret about it, he kept going with his mission. (Father, take away this cup for I don't want its taste) Don't really know how is this verse in english as I talk in spanish, but you get my point. It's not about who suffered more, of course there are people who suffer in worse ways. We have to look at it at its unfairness. It's not fair that people suffer, specially the most innocent. If Jesus had been guilty, there wouldn't be a reason to remember how he was.

I think you misunderstood his post, which could either be choice or just the language barrier. He isn't asking why Jesus sacrificed himself, but rather why it is special. Jesus got a whole lot of perks for being dead for less than 72 hours. Can it really be considered a sacrifice if you gain from it?

What? Of course it is when you gain something good about it? Wouldn't you give yourself to save the life of a son of yours?

Azdgari · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:25:47 PM »

Don_Quixote, that does not coherently address the contents of SpineOfSteel's post. Is English your first language?

Asmoday · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:34:06 PM »

Quote from: Don_Quixote on April 21, 2010, 05:13:25 PM

What? Of course it is when you gain something good about it? Wouldn't you give yourself to save the life of a son of yours?

I think you misunderstood again.

Of course sacrifices are brought to gain something. But the point is, that bringing a sacrifice means to give up something important in exchange or in the hope of an exchange for something else. In your example the parent gives up his/ her life in hope of saving his/her child.

The core of the question is: Can it really be considered a sacrifice, if the thing, that you give up, is completely negliable compared to the gain? How about if the thing you give up does not even have value to you, so there actually is no "giving up"? Can it be considered a sacrifice, if you know the outcome (or better yet you yourself made sure there is only one outcome) beforehand?

SpineOfSteel · « **Reply #25 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:44:11 PM »

Quote from: Azdgari on April 21, 2010, 05:25:47 PM

Don_Quixote, that does not coherently address the contents of SpineOfSteel's post. Is English your first language?

It isn't. I believe he said Spanish is his native language.

Quote from: Asmoday on April 21, 2010, 05:34:06 PM

...I think you misunderstood again.

Of course sacrifices are brought to gain something. But the point is, that bringing a sacrifice means to give up something important in exchange or in the hope of an exchange for something else. In your example the parent gives up his/ her life in hope of saving his/her child.

The core of the question is: Can it really be considered a sacrifice, if the thing, that you give up, is completely negliable compared to the gain? How about if the thing you give up does not even have value to you, so there actually is no "giving up"? Can it be considered a sacrifice, if you know the outcome (or better yet you yourself made sure there is only one outcome) beforehand?

Excellent way of putting it. I'd also like to mention, and perhaps clarify on my before post, that sacrifice generally means you lose something, whether it be your life, your job, etc. for the sake of someone else. In the case of Jesus, supposedly other people did gain, but did he really lose? As stated in the original post, he came out on top of the deal.

And to DonQ. If I had a son I assume that in order to preserve my genetics I would being willing to sacrifice my life for him. I've also often heard of this thing humans call love that might play a hand as well.

The thing is, say this son of mine was about to be hit by a train and the only way to save him would be to push him out of the way and take the hit for him, it would be a sacrifice for me to do so. But if I went into the situation, knowing that if I pushed him out of the way, the train would barrel me over and I would miraculously stand up as though nothing had happened, it wouldn't be a sacrifice. Yes I would have saved his life, however I wouldn't have sacrificed anything to do so.

jetson · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2010, 09:31:14 PM »

Spine - you took the words out of my keyboard!

I was going to say something similar to help illustrate. If a person jumped on top of a live bomb and stopped the explosion from injuring other people in the vicinity, that person would be dead, permanently sacrificing his/her life for others. That person would never return to life. That person gave up everything for others.

The story of Jesus' sacrifice is the exact opposite. He did not really give up anything at all. His death, while considered symbolic, was not a sacrifice at all, since he was restored to full life and health - and in heaven to boot!

kevyrat69 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2010, 12:08:19 AM »

Mormons believe it was just a pole. I picture that as a quicker death.

bahramthered · « **Reply #28 on:** April 22, 2010, 12:40:11 AM »

hugh guys, crucifixion in the old romans day was done different than most commonly depicted on crucifixes, and a historian told me that the biggest thing is that the nails are driven in through the wrist instead of the hand. The weight of your body pulls down. As long as you have the strength and will to lift yourself up you can breathe. You desperately need your legs to do this. If someone decided to break the victim's legs that transforms a highly probably death sentence into death very quickly. That was why the romans decided to do it. (which in turn got jebus stabbed with the spear and gave the spear wielder free Lasik)

If you last three days on the cross you where pardoned.

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Author Topic: What's so special about Jesus' sacrifice? (Read 16975 times)