Author Topic: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...  (Read 869 times)

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Offline Gordon Freeman

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Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« on: April 16, 2010, 11:21:07 AM »
I am writing something for my site and I need to clear one thing out.
When did Hebrew start using names for god? I know in the book of Genesis there is El(ohim), and there is Yahweh. But, I have a book and a documentary "History of God" which brings the claim that names for god started to be used in Exodus 3:14 when god said: "I am that I am"! We see that here god at least gave an answer when was asked about the name, contrary to Genesis 32:29 when god said that Jacob is not to know his name (or something like that).

When I look in the bible I see that in Genesis 2:7 a Hebrew word  ???????? (Yahweh) is used. Seems paradoxical, but my interpretation is that at the time when bible was written it was after all this "happened" so it was a time when Yahweh name was commonly used (despite the fact that it was not used in the past time when stories of Genesis occurred).

I hope I was clear enough.

What I want is to get someone explain how to "prove" that it happened that way, if it was really that way. I would like to get a source, (beside the book and the documentary I have) which states that god's name was used after the happenings in the book of Genesis, despite the fact that god's name was used in the books of Genesis. (When I read what I wrote, it sound so confusing)  :D


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 11:50:52 AM »
Armstrong's book?  I think there is another book of the same name by an archaelolgist.

If you have not already read them, these books will help:
The Evolution of God terrific book, even if it panders to the religious a little.
The Bible Unearthed  Very academic.

As I understand it, two different "kingdoms" in judea worshipped different gods.  One worshipped El, (North, i think) the other yhwh (south, I think).  They did not become the same god until around the time of Josaiah when he used this religion for nationalistic purposes.  It became yhwh because he was in the south. But to keep the people in the north happy, they did not abolish the name of El.  

also, wiki has a good article on Ugarit and elohim. I hope that is what you are looking for.


edit - Early History of God by Mark Smith.  also very academic.  I think EoG used it and Bible Unearthed as sources
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 11:54:26 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 02:09:51 PM »
^^Thank you very much! I'll check the books you recommended.
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 04:31:22 AM »
If you truly believe or understand for lack of a much better word that Moses was the author / writer of the first five books of the Torah, then logically these truths / facts are self evident by these books in and of themselves.  Exocus 6:2 states: And I appeared to Abraham, unto Isaac, and Jacob, by the name of God Almighty (El Shaddai) {Allah Shadyah} but by my name YHWH was I not known to them. Two of them Abraham and Issac lived their lives in the time of Genesis. While Jacob's life begins in Genesis yet ends in the begining of the book of Exodus. The conclusion drawn is that before Moses everyone that YHWH approached knew HIM by the name of EL / Elohim mind you this is the Canaanite [Phoenician] language of use; in Hebrew EL is ALLAH and Elohim is ALAHAYAM. Both languages use the same Letters yet pronounced the words they developed with those letters quite differently. If you search Paleo-Hebrew this is self evident as well. This is the reason for the Arabs use of the word ALLAH in their religion Islam. For they (The Arabs) are the children of Ishmael and that is what Abraham his father taught him before he was sent away. The true meaning is Great One / Mighty One and later on down the line it came to mean God and Gods / Power and Powers. Never the less it was not and never was YHWH's name. Exodus 3:13-15 is where HIS name YHWH was revealed to Moses.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2011, 07:04:11 AM »
If you truly believe or understand for lack of a much better word that Moses was the author / writer of the first five books of the Torah,

He wasn't.  Richard Elliot Friedman explains who probably wrote them in Who Wrote the Bible.  Whomever it was, it was defintitely not Moses.   

 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 11:44:13 AM »
Or people just made up this nonsense and it went from language to language and culture to culture as they tried to convince themselves they were some "chosen" people adn those "others" deserved to die.   
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 01:05:22 AM »
I Am quite sure Richard Elliot Friedman was not around during that time for me to even ponder that thought. Opinions will always evolve from one generation to the next. The further away you get from History at the time of its occurrence the more obscure it becomes. "Probably" is the key word in the statement that you made. If you believe Richard Elliot Freidman's hypothesis then believe on. The statement was to illustrate The Scriptures themselves answers the question that was before asked. There was no need for any outside source to answer that question. What you choose to believe is an entire different subject all together. If Moses did not write the Scriptures it still does not change the statement that was made before no matter who Richard Elliot Freidman or yourself thinks who wrote it. If Moses did not write it then who did? Are you prepared to deal with this accusation if it is not true? Don't be quick to cosign everything that you read unless you, yourself can prove other wise without a shadow of a doubt. Make sure you get paid for endorsing others works and beliefs as well. Pay very close attention to the questions as well as the answers given.

Offline C

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 01:16:25 AM »
YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) is God's name in Hebrew. Elohim, Avinu, Alpha & Omega, I Am That I Am, Father, Lord, The Beginning and End, and so forth are just fancy titles for YHWH, not names :D
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 01:20:51 AM »
YHWH is The Name of The Strength of The House of The Hebrews. All else are of pagan (strange) origin and are not affiliated with YHWH whatsoever. Reaseach each name or title individually and maybe this may be realed to you? There is no other name for YHWH. None are fancy they are foolish.

Offline C

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 01:26:34 AM »
YHWH is The Name of The Strength of The House of The Hebrews. All else are of pagan (strange) origin and are not affiliated with YHWH whatsoever. Reaseach each name or title individually and maybe this may be realed to you? There is no other name for YHWH. None are fancy they are foolish.

Name of the Strength of the House of the Hebrews? Uh, yeah sure. YHWH is the Hebrew God's name, is what I think you're trying to say? If so, then I agree with you. And also, I did do my research, all those names listed up there (Judaism & Christianity) are fancy titles for YHWH and are certainly not of "pagan" origin, though yes, they are strange :P
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 01:46:54 AM »
If The Hebrew Scripture remained in the rightful hands of the rightful owners which are The Hebrews then you would not have none of this nonsense going on that you have today. You would not have all of these obscure opinions, different religions / denominations (based on The Hebrew Scripture), ideologies, philosophies, etc. etc. You would not have all of these books attempting to explain what was clearly understood by The Hebrews themselves. You would not have all of these bizarre names believed to be YHWH's. You would not have the mass confusion that you have today based on something that clearly does not belong to you. There is a reason why there is a book called the Hebrew Scriptures (The Tanakh) and the Christion Bible known as the Old and New Testament aka the Greek Septuagint aka The Catholic Bible better said the Universal (World) Bible. These things would have never taken place if the Hebrew Scripture which consist of some not all of the books embedded in the Tanakh would have remained with its rightful owners. These things are not understood by the masses of people who read the universal bible and do not study the history around it. The disputes are based on something that is clearly not properly understood. The bibles today are a replica of a political crime. If you choose to be an accessory to that crime then do so, if not learn all that you can while you can. Learn to think outside the box. Seek to truly validate all that you have been taught and I guarantee you will see something different. To walk by faith and not by sight is for the blind and foolish. Open your eyes and see truth.

Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 01:50:23 AM »
Prove it. Talk is talk. What research? I said exactly what I meant to say I do not have need of an interpreter. Weither you agree with me or not matters none.

Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 01:56:38 AM »
(Judaism & Christianity)? Please they are both of Pagan Origin you probably did not get that far in you research and just stopped with what sounds good to you. Do you even know where both of these religions originated? Its hard to see because it shapes the world that you know. They are both strange to the Hebrews. The Hebrews followed neither Judaism not Christianity. You need to reconsider where you are deriving your information.

Offline C

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 02:06:35 AM »
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If The Hebrew Scripture remained in the rightful hands of the rightful owners which are The Hebrews then you would not have none of this nonsense going on that you have today.

Oh good.  &)

Quote
You would not have all of these obscure opinions, different religions / denominations (based on The Hebrew Scripture), ideologies, philosophies, etc. etc.

Even better!

Quote
You would not have all of these books attempting to explain what was clearly understood by The Hebrews themselves. You would not have all of these bizarre names believed to be YHWH's.

You seem to not know the difference between "name" and "title".


Quote
You would not have the mass confusion that you have today based on something that clearly does not belong to you. There is a reason why there is a book called the Hebrew Scriptures (The Tanakh) and the Christion Bible known as the Old and New Testament aka the Greek Septuagint aka The Catholic Bible better said the Universal (World) Bible. These things would have never taken place if the Hebrew Scripture which consist of some not all of the books embedded in the Tanakh would have remained with its rightful owners. These things are not understood by the masses of people who read the universal bible and do not study the history around it. The disputes are based on something that is clearly not properly understood. The bibles today are a replica of a political crime. If you choose to be an accessory to that crime then do so, if not learn all that you can while you can. Learn to think outside the box.

I really don't care at the moment whether or not your sand nomads made their own religion. What I only care about at the moment is the present when the world is being plagued by religious fanatics and religions that don't give a shit about humans in reality and the good deeds done by humans regardless of what their religion or position in life is. I have no idea what "crime" you're talking about unless it's the crime of indoctrinating children into believing ridiculous myths about "YHWH", "Allah" or whatever you'd like to name your imaginary friend.

Quote
Seek to truly validate all that you have been taught and I guarantee you will see something different. To walk by faith and not by sight is for the blind and foolish. Open your eyes and see truth.

Are you Jewish? Christian? Israel-supporting Christian? Regardless, you're sounding a whole lot like a crazy bastard called Herman Cummings  &)

Quote
Prove it. Talk is talk. What research? I said exactly what I meant to say I do not have need of an interpreter. Weither you agree with me or not matters none.

I don't understand, do you want me to shove everything I've ever read and learned down your throat?

Quote
(Judaism & Christianity)? Please they are both of Pagan Origin you probably did not get that far in you research and just stopped with what sounds good to you. Do you even know where both of these religions originated? Its hard to see because it shapes the world that you know. They are both strange to the Hebrews. The Hebrews followed neither Judaism not Christianity. You need to reconsider where you are deriving your information.

Uh, what? The more words you type, the more obscure your position in all of this is. And Judaism, I'm pretty damn sure, is the oldest monotheistic religion of Jewish people, in other words, the religion of the people who speak/write/read Hebrew.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 02:10:58 AM by C »
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 02:44:02 AM »
The word  (El) was the name of the Chief Canaanite god (deity), whose name became the common word for god  in general (El in Canaanite ~ ALLAH in Hebrew). Every where in The Hebrew Scriptures you see the word AL pronounced El as (God). You also see Elohim / Elohiym (gods) which is not YHWH at all. These are not titles a you would like to think, they are actual names. Names of the Chief Teutonic deity of the Canaanites. Is this YHWH? NO! The Lord / BA'AL samething. Look it up you get the very same definition except BA'Al is the son of EL (God) the Canaanite deity. Look up the word Rabbi you will find the exact same definition for the word Lord to the letter. Is this YHWH? NO! I AM THAT I AM, I AM is not a title it is YHWH's way of explaining HIMSELF to Moses. Something that is clearly unexplainable. Look up The Most High (ILYON) this is how the Canaanites referred to EL. Is YHWH to be referred to that way? NO! ILYON is not a title it is a name. Now my question to you is YHWH EL? I doubt it very seriously. I said what I meant and I mean what I say. The biggest mystery in history and religion YHWH is not God (EL / ALLAH) or a GOD / Deity. He just is. Y= He HWH= Is / Exist. All of this nonsense that you have in today's bibles is due to Canaanite influence when The Hebrews entered into the promise land after the Egyptian  [Mitzryam] exodus and did not do what YHWH told them not to do; which is make no covenant with the Canaanites for they will surely turn you against me. YHWH IS YHWH that's all there is to it. Might be hard to comprehend at first; give it some time and it will.

Jer 23:26   How long shall [this] be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, [they are] prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 
Jer 23:27   Which think to cause my people [The Hebrews] to forget my name [YHWH] by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as "their Fathers" have forgotten my name [YHWH] for Baal [the Lord]. 

Learn all that you can while you can and Think outside the box!






Offline C

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 02:46:02 AM »
Conclusion: YHWH is imaginary.

Thanks for your time Just.  &)
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 03:17:44 AM »
Jeremiah 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the teachings of YHWH is with us? Lo, certainly he (He Who?) made it falsely; the pen of "the scribes" made it a lie.

The Scribes where the people who actually made hand written copies of The Hebrew Scriptures for The Kings, Prophets and Cohan / Priest & Levites. That's all that they did was make copies of The Hebrew Scriptures. Don't be a fool and think that they weren't corrupted. Big mistake!

The reason you have and see all of the things that most choose to believe in is for this very reason. God ( El / ALLAH) (Elohim / ALAHAYAM), The Lord (BA'AL) Rabbi, The Most High (ILYON), etc. etc. Please do not be a fool and think that The Hebrews Scriptures were not and can not and have not been tampered with / corrupted. If The House of YHWH was able to be defiled / corrupted. The Hebrews were able to be defiled / corrupted. Adam and Eve were able to be defiled / corrupted, what makes you think that a book / scrolls can not be defiled / corrupted? Is it your belief? Is it your religion? or is it your irrational thinking? All things have been corrupted; accept it. Its a very hard pill to swallow yet you will never get the proper medication until you do. You will never see truth accepting that which is not true. Never!!!

Offline C

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 03:26:35 AM »
Quote
Jeremiah 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the teachings of YHWH is with us? Lo, certainly he (He Who?) made it falsely; the pen of "the scribes" made it a lie.

Jeremiah 6:15 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when I punish them," says the LORD.

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Psalms 137:8-9 - 8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Hosea 13:16 -  "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

Look at me look at me! I can quote the Bible!

Quote
The Scribes where the people who actually made hand written copies of The Hebrew Scriptures for The Kings, Prophets and Cohan / Priest & Levites. That's all that they did was make copies of The Hebrew Scriptures. Don't be a fool and think that they weren't corrupted. Big mistake! The reason you have and see all of the things that most choose to believe in is for this very reason. God ( El / ALLAH) (Elohim / ALAHAYAM), The Lord (BA'AL) Rabbi, The Most High (ILYON), etc. etc. Please do not be a fool and think that The Hebrews Scriptures were not and can not and have not been tampered with / corrupted. If The House of YHWH was able to be defiled / corrupted. The Hebrews were able to be defiled / corrupted. Adam and Eve were able to be defiled / corrupted, what makes you think that a book / scrolls can not be defiled / corrupted? Is it your belief? Is it your religion? or is it your irrational thinking? All things have been corrupted; accept it. Its a very hard pill to swallow yet you will never get the proper medication until you do. You will never see truth accepting that which is not true. Never!!!

I am now just going to ignore you and your ramblings. Good bye.
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Offline Just

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 03:37:43 AM »
A person who is properly educated need not to divulge in name calling and judgment. I have not and will not get into that level of thinking with you. Who ever else reads will probably look up all the information that I shared and might see exactly what I AM illustrating. As far as you think what you like. Share your emotions with someone who can actually help you with them. What you think of me is none of my business. It just clearly shows you what is truly inside of you. A fanatic did not write Websters or any dictionary. A fanatic did not write any bible dictionary. All that I stated can be found in any of these books that anybody can read and find. I AM of none of these religions that you mentioned because as I stated before they are all false and started for political reasons. Every book that you read only strengthens and validates all that you believe and think. Its no wonder you think the way that you do. Pick up a book that questions what you believe in and you would be surprised at what you see. I stated this before Christianity and Judaism shapes your world whether you want to believe it or not it still does not change the fact even if you are not a follower of either religion. If you do not understand anything that I stated that's alright no big deal. Lack of understanding still does not change facts. If you do not know it just means you are not interested. I follow no ones religion so that you know. And if you were so concerned about humanity then you should practice being a good human yourself first.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 07:56:24 AM »
I Am quite sure Richard Elliot Friedman was not around during that time for me to even ponder that thought.

so...because Friedman is not 2600 years old his input is not even worthy of your consideration?  And you would not even bother to read Friedman to see if what he was saying made any sense?   And the only thing that would make you reconsider your position is first hand accounts from 600 bce? 

That is kind of a narrow approach to the question.

"Probably" is the key word in the statement that you made.

Of course it is.  Probably is the best we can say about anything.  Your children?  Probably yours.  They might not be.  You cannot say for sure.  You could do genetic testing, but there is still a possibility of the tests being wrong.  So, probably is the best you can do.  Germ theory?  Probably true. Ohms law?  Probably true.  The Pentateuch written by Moses?  Probably not.

If you believe Richard Elliot Freidman's hypothesis then believe on.

Typical religious confusion.  It is not about belief like you are making it out to be.  He presented a plausible idea with evidence to support it.  Do I believe it?   It depends what you mean by believe.  I find it to be sufficiently well supported to say "that is probably the case".  However, I'm not married to the idea, like you seem to be with moses. 

The statement was to illustrate The Scriptures themselves answers the question that was before asked. There was no need for any outside source to answer that question.

I have not idea what you are trying to say.

If Moses did not write the Scriptures it still does not change the statement that was made before no matter who Richard Elliot Freidman or yourself thinks who wrote it.

?  I have no idea what you are trying to say. 

If Moses did not write it then who did?

Several people, including Jeremiah, and Ezra.  And in any case, it is not necessary to have an alternative if it is completely obvious that Moses didn't do it.  It is okay to say "I do not know".

Are you prepared to deal with this accusation if it is not true?

?  Am I prepared to deal with accusation?  what is that supposed to mean?  Can I admit I am wrong?  Sure.  I am not invested in the idea.  I do not have my ego tied to it.  That is the key to learning new things. It is an idea, not my idea, so I can let it go if I find a better one.

Don't be quick to cosign everything that you read unless you, yourself can prove other wise without a shadow of a doubt.

I don't have to prove something wrong to adopt a better idea.  Look at atomic models.
The old greek model is not wrong, per se, but it was abandoned in favor of a better model that had more explanatory power. 

And who set the standard of "beyond a shadow of a doubt"?  If you are the one saying Moses wrote it, then why do you not have to prove that is so "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? 




The word  (El) was the name of the Chief Canaanite god (deity), ... The biggest mystery in history and religion YHWH is not God (EL / ALLAH) or a GOD / Deity.

Actually, I agree with everything you said up to that point.

All of this nonsense that you have in today's bibles is due to Canaanite influence when The Hebrews entered into the promise land after the Egyptian  [Mitzryam] exodus...

And there you lost me.  The Hebrews were Canaanites.  The Canaanites were Hebrews.  They were never a nation enslaved in Egypt.  There had been some canaanites living in Sinai who were run out of town by they Egyptians because the Egyptians thought they were too successful.  But Exodus did not happen. 

The canaanite pantheon included el, baal, asherah and yhwh as well as several other gods.  It evolved into proto-judaism. and later, when the Assyrians and Babylonians took turns crushing the hebrews, it became monotheistic judaism. 

some sources for you:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2010/0111/Egypt-says-Jewish-slaves-didn-t-build-pyramids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed <-- excellent scholarly book. 
 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Source of god's names Yahweh, El, Elohim...
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 04:56:44 PM »
Just,
pretty amusing with your protestations of following no one's religion and then busily quoting from one of the big ones.  Just, you seem to be one more Christian who doesn't like to be called a Christian since others like you have made that word less than flattering.  You have created your own religion, no matter how much you'd like to redefine words. 
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