Author Topic: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS  (Read 1471 times)

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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 09:20:45 AM »
I suspect (but don't know) that certain drug experiences and NDEs are related.

In what way "related"? Supernaturally?

I'd like to question the word 'supernaturally' before answering.  Do we know what is natural and what is supernatural ?  eg Is consciousness natural ?  Is the emergence/existence of life natural ?  Neither has been explained by science.

[I don't expect answers but feel free if you want to have a go.]

Having said that, I believe that the consciousness experience of an NDE is as real as our ordinary day to day consciousness experience.  NDE experiencers almost exclusively state this to be the case - in fact they often report experiencing reality more sharply and accurately than normal.

I suspect (but have less evidence) that certain drug related experiences are of a similar type to those NDEs.

By evidence I am referring to the reports of the experiencers.  I'm not at the moment prepared to use the word 'supernatural' because that word has too much 'baggage' attached to it.


Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 09:39:37 AM »
You know exactly what i mean with "supernatural" but call it what you want.

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Having said that, I believe that the consciousness experience of an NDE is as real as our ordinary day to day consciousness experience.  NDE experiencers almost exclusively state this to be the case - in fact they often report experiencing reality more sharply and accurately than normal.

Same is true for some types of drug experience, and can even be the results of experienced, long practiced meditation..

Now stop squirming and simply answer the question as you doubtlessly knew it was intended: You see NDEs as a glimpse into the "continuity of the soul beyond physical death", do you think drug experiences are related to that?

My guess is: this is a discussion dead end.
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 09:50:51 AM »
You know exactly what i mean with "supernatural" but call it what you want.

Quote
Having said that, I believe that the consciousness experience of an NDE is as real as our ordinary day to day consciousness experience.  NDE experiencers almost exclusively state this to be the case - in fact they often report experiencing reality more sharply and accurately than normal.

Same is true for some types of drug experience, and can even be the results of experienced, long practiced meditation..

Now stop squirming and simply answer the question as you doubtlessly knew it was intended: You see NDEs as a glimpse into the "continuity of the soul beyond physical death", do you think drug experiences are related to that?


Yes, that is what I suspect.

'Soul' by the way is another word for 'consciousness' (in my view).

Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2010, 07:56:49 AM »
And now: Why do you suppose psychoactive drugs are psychoactive?
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2010, 09:00:00 AM »
And now: Why do you suppose psychoactive drugs are psychoactive?

That sounds like a big question.

Definition of psychoactive: "affecting the mind or mood or other mental processes"

I would guess that psychoactive drugs temporarily switch off certain brain/mind functions and those brain functions particularly deal with logical structures (among many other things).  When the brain/mind loses awareness of those logical structures, the person (consciousness) experiences reality in a more connected (unified) way than through our normal mental filter which separates the world into various distinct parts.

But I am no expert in this field.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:07:21 AM by Dominic »

Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2010, 10:16:42 AM »
Well, actually it i no big question. Your answer isn't entirely correct, because it is not a simple "switching off" it is also a matter of "switching on" or overexciting. But that is not what i am looking for. I realize that you are no expert on this, therefore i am looking for a simpler answer.

Let me try to ask differently: What do you think is the reason for substances that are not naturally produced in the body to have such an (profound) effect on the body?

(Please abstain from discussing the meaning of the word "naturally", if you can help it. I know you know what i am talking about.)
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2010, 12:07:05 PM »
Well, actually it i no big question. Your answer isn't entirely correct, because it is not a simple "switching off" it is also a matter of "switching on" or overexciting. But that is not what i am looking for. I realize that you are no expert on this, therefore i am looking for a simpler answer.

Let me try to ask differently: What do you think is the reason for substances that are not naturally produced in the body to have such an (profound) effect on the body?

(Please abstain from discussing the meaning of the word "naturally", if you can help it. I know you know what i am talking about.)

I don't think I know an answer.  All I can think of quickly (and I don't think it's a good answer at all) is that life is like one of those video games where you have to find magic trinkets that give you special powers and/or allow you to advance to the next level.  But don't ingest too much of the magic poppies or you'll go nuts and fail your mission.  We are not told the rules before the mission.  We have to discover them for ourselves.  Perhaps by trial and error.

I doubt this is what you are after since you are hoping for a simple 'answer'.  You will probably think that I'm pretending to not understand you but I promise you that I am trying to understand your question.

Wait.  I may have thought of something better while I've been typing.  A human partner is found outside the body and can have a profound effect.  So can a sunset.  A painting.  A panoramic view.  A book.  A movie.  Chocolate.   So lots of things from outside the body can have a profound effect.  Now why do they have a profound effect ?

Here's my theory - I think that the human self is severely lacking and is forever looking for something to complement/supplement himself.  He will try anything and everything with varying degrees of success - marriage, kids, sex, drugs, food, music, thrills, knowledge, money, power, sport, talking, thinking, religion, prayer, meditation...

And all these things can give enjoyment and fulfilment to varying degrees.

Many of these things are outside and the individual hopes that he can somehow make himself 'whole' through them.  Sometimes he may also start to look inside for 'answers' eg meditation.

The NDE and the drug experience can both also give a sense of wholeness albeit temporarily.  Other items on the list above can also.

This does seem to be forming in my head into a fairly cohesive theory because it links back to the sense of unity which is occasionally experienced (usually rare) as opposed to our normal life made up of lots of discrete things ie separateness.

This separateness then links to the sense of lack within the self - which is the reason why so many people are searching for something which will make them whole again.  Some Eastern philosophies might describe the solution as the Nirvana or Unity experience whereby the separate self can actually realise that it is already united with the whole and that realisation can be immensely joyful.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 12:28:30 PM by Dominic »

Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2010, 12:57:04 PM »
Uhm....interesting.

I won't comment at length on all of your post, since it has nothing to do with what i want to get at. Just this much: If your explanations had any credence, why would there profound effects observable in non human animals, too, though these animals are not able to get all philosophical about it?(No need to answer this one, just think about it...)

But no, it's certainly no simple answer, and no, it is not what i was looking for. What i was looking for is, psychoactive drugs are psychoactive because they resemble substances or molecular properties of substances that are naturally present in the in the body and therefore can interact with the receptors present in the body on a molecular level. Simple as that.

Can you guess why i think it is important in relation to NDEs? (Can be answered in four or five lines, max.)
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2010, 09:30:26 AM »
Uhm....interesting.

I won't comment at length on all of your post, since it has nothing to do with what i want to get at. Just this much: If your explanations had any credence, why would there profound effects observable in non human animals, too, though these animals are not able to get all philosophical about it?(No need to answer this one, just think about it...)

But no, it's certainly no simple answer, and no, it is not what i was looking for. What i was looking for is, psychoactive drugs are psychoactive because they resemble substances or molecular properties of substances that are naturally present in the in the body and therefore can interact with the receptors present in the body on a molecular level. Simple as that.

Can you guess why i think it is important in relation to NDEs? (Can be answered in four or five lines, max.)


Why not put us both out of our misery and just say what it is that you want (me) to say.  I'd love to hear it.  Trying to get me to say it could take months even when I'm trying my hardest to get on your wavelength.


Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2010, 02:13:12 AM »
Ah well, i am of the conviction that thoughts one has arrived at of oneself, or with little guidance, have a more positive effect than anything one is simply told. I don't want you to say anything specific, I want you to think in other directions than you have already done.

Thus i would not see it as productive, if i just would tell you what i think. It is probably the best if i "put us out of our misery" by simply saying "Lets stop here". 
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offline NHB

Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2010, 09:05:02 PM »
Quote
what does your church teach?
All churches pretty much teaches the same thing.


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