Author Topic: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS  (Read 3811 times)

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Offline WONDER

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QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« on: April 09, 2010, 01:12:50 PM »
this thread is directed to all preachers, reverends, pastors, priests, bishops, etc. NOT THE 'LAY' PEOPLE, but the person who gives the sermons.

c'mon pastors, i know youre out there reading these threads. let me ask you this. will all sinners burn in hell forever and ever. what does your church teach? i heard one preacher say sinners will be burned up completely and that will be the end of them. they wont exist no more after they are burned up. what do you teach. others say sinners will burn forever. which is it.

also, do you believe god punishes people for not going to church by making or letting bad things happen to them. what do you teach.

do you believe that all christians are supposed to tithe and if they dont something bad will happen to them. what do you teach.

i am an agnostic atheist and ive come to realize that church is entertaiment for people. they are paying for entertainment week after week. but it is fear behind it all. fear of god letting something bad happen to them if they dont go. also there's reward behind it all too. the reward is going to heaven.

but heaven is a 'make it up as you go place.'  nobody can seem to answer questions i have about heaven like, will there be sex in heaven. the bible doesnt mention it. if a christian dies at age 110, will they be 110 for eternity? is that paradise or is that a curse. see you gotta make things up as you go. and nobody has ever came back and told me what its like. i got other questions too, that i want preachers to answer.

do people go straight to heaven or hell when they die or do they just go to the grave and will be raised later at judgment day.









Offline Divon

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 01:37:40 PM »
I'm a preacher and I just read your post. Let me think about it for a bit and I'll make up something that will sort of seem like an answer. BTW, are you real guilible, so I can use the same mumbo-jumbo that my flock swallows every week?
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While macroevolution theory makes absolutely no scientific sense whatsoever, ever noticed how hard it is to persuade a nonbeliever using the finest of logic? IMO, that's because surrounding the nonbeliever are spiritual "forces and principalities" that warp his ability to think

Offline WONDER

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 01:59:43 PM »
just come back with your answers mister preacher. i can tell i touched a nerve already. LOL. you know its all a fairytale.

Offline Petey

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 02:12:21 PM »
This doesn't happen to me very often, but I'm having a premonition:

This thread will show that trolls on this board are not limited to theists.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 02:13:44 PM »

but heaven is a 'make it up as you go place.'  nobody can seem to answer questions i have about heaven like, will there be sex in heaven. the bible doesnt mention it. if a christian dies at age 110, will they be 110 for eternity? is that paradise or is that a curse. see you gotta make things up as you go. and nobody has ever came back and told me what its like.


Here's one who says he did (go there and come back) - 

http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html

And there are many others with similar claims and stories.



Offline wheels5894

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 02:19:33 PM »
Don't want to de-rail the thread but http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8607660.stm shows what is wrong with the link in the last post.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline RegalSin

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 05:24:53 PM »

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will all sinners burn in hell forever and ever.


Hell is a place created in the minds of men. The true hell is lost forever. Like a Ipod, that was tossed in a washer.

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what does your church teach?

All churches pretty much teaches the same thing. What about Judism? what do they teach? What about the Rabbi??

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sinners will be burned up completely and that will be the end of them.

They who do not accept god, into there hearts. Those who avoids the ten commandments, or repeatively breaks them without cause. However being pushed into mass is not something to cry over. Just not having any relationship with god. The churches do help people, especially those with no where to go.

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do you believe god punishes people for not going to church

Chuch is a state of mind. You can have church anywhere at anytime. It can end, or be for hours. Keep in mind, we need churches to be in the area to remind us about god, wishes. If there was no churches, some people would forget when they need to remember.


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church is entertaiment for people.


There is nothing entertaining about church. It is like a court room. People lives is on the line. It is just nice to go every once in awhile. The feeling of church itself, makes you feel at ease. It is like giving false directions but you know it is the wrong way. Then again, you don't know but you still try.


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paying for entertainment week after week

We live in a capitalist world. We are not Israel. Church and State is a seperate thing. The Church has taxes to pay like any land owner. There is also the living fees of the people who run the church. Then there is charities. Alot of people who go to the churchs, use them to get by. That is why those JW is allways trying to get you to come to church. Why no Jewish people knocking at the door, I wonder? I have seen Catolics.

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fear behind it all. fear of god letting something bad happen to them if they dont go. also there's reward behind it all too. the reward is going to heaven.

It starts with a lie. Somebody says my word is as good as gold. They try and come. Then they go. The see it is not a bad thing, then they get them again. Most people who do go again, have the money and time. While others do not.


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'make it up as you go place.'
 
Heavan is Space......

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will there be sex in heaven
Sex is of the fleshy world.

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will they be 110 for eternity?

Your asking will I look old in heavan?? There is no logic in that sense. Go and watch some Bill and Ted, then think about it.

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paradise or is that a curse

Paradise or curse is what you make it.

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do people go straight to heaven or hell when they die or do they just go to the grave and will be raised later at judgment day.

Think about it. Death is the final frontier for all. Imagine your body shutting down, to the point where you do not even understand or know what you is. Imagine the feild of white. Imagine going to sleep and think/dreaming and not even knowning what is think/dreaming. Imagine the ripples of energy flowing into you. Yes you have thought about that. The military calls it water bording.


Offline anthony_retford

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 05:54:20 PM »

but heaven is a 'make it up as you go place.'  nobody can seem to answer questions i have about heaven like, will there be sex in heaven. the bible doesnt mention it. if a christian dies at age 110, will they be 110 for eternity? is that paradise or is that a curse. see you gotta make things up as you go. and nobody has ever came back and told me what its like.

Here's one who says he did (go there and come back) -  

http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html

That was some hallucination. Where can I get some of the stuff that caused that one?

« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 05:56:09 PM by anthony_retford »
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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 11:29:12 PM »
Don't want to de-rail the thread but http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8607660.stm shows what is wrong with the link in the last post.

Wheels,

Carbon dioxide is raised therefore poeple experience a detailed tour of heaven ???

And suddenly atheists are ready to make the huge leap of faith involved in that wild speculation ?    If atheists dismiss NDEs so unthinkingly then this simply demonstrates a strong anti-theist prejudice rather than a desire to study and test evidence.

[It's not a complete de-rail because the OP wanted some evidence of heaven among other things.]



Offline Aspie

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 12:01:26 AM »
Wheels,

Carbon dioxide is raised therefore poeple experience a detailed tour of heaven ???

And suddenly atheists are ready to make the huge leap of faith involved in that wild speculation ?    If atheists dismiss NDEs so unthinkingly then this simply demonstrates a strong anti-theist prejudice rather than a desire to study and test evidence.

Well apparently I'm reading a different article; nowhere in Wheels' does it state this is the direct cause, it says there is a significant difference in blood carbon dioxide levels that is definitely worth further study.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 12:22:18 AM »

This thread will show that trolls on this board are not limited to theists.

Seconded. But then again, aren't I a troll?

Offline Sashka

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 02:56:32 AM »
Bullshit
Now I am naked with a towel over my lap typing on the computer.

Enough with your bullshit.

Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 03:05:07 AM »
Wheels,

Carbon dioxide is raised therefore poeple experience a detailed tour of heaven ???

And suddenly atheists are ready to make the huge leap of faith involved in that wild speculation ?    If atheists dismiss NDEs so unthinkingly then this simply demonstrates a strong anti-theist prejudice rather than a desire to study and test evidence.

Well apparently I'm reading a different article; nowhere in Wheels' does it state this is the direct cause, it says there is a significant difference in blood carbon dioxide levels that is definitely worth further study.


Agree that it's worth further study.  Disagree that it shows that all NDEs are hallucination as implied by Wheels and others.

Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 04:04:22 AM »
Agree that it's worth further study.  Disagree that it shows that all NDEs are hallucination as implied by Wheels and others.

Two questions, Dominic:

Do you attribute the effects of hallucinogenic drugs to anything else but the changes in neuro-chemistry the uptake of these drugs causes, i.e. do you suggest that there is something "real" about the resulting hallucination-experiences?

By what mechanism(s) do hallucinogenic drugs gain their hallucinogenic effects, i.e. how and why do they work?

Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 06:37:33 AM »
Yes, the article I posted was only showing the interesting fact of CO2 and NDEs. Other studies have shown that NDes can be generated by using certain anaesthetic drugs too. The fact is that: -

  • These are 'Near Death' experiences and not death itself. Thus one would hardly expect the two to be the same.
  • All we know about the body would indicate that the effects are generated in the brain as the brain chemistry is disturbed by lack or oxygen or maybe raised levels of CO2. No one has been able to detect the presence of a soul (although some have tried) so we are dealing with the physical brain here. 

Now if anyone things this is too materialist for them, fine, show where the ideas are wrong and bring the evidence. To date I have not seen anything that would indicate anything other that a physical explanation but I am very open to be shown if this is wrong.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jetson

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 06:59:03 AM »

Agree that it's worth further study.  Disagree that it shows that all NDEs are hallucination as implied by Wheels and others.

Disagreement is fine.  Not showing another possible mechanism while disagreeing is worthless.  Same thing happens with evolution deniers; they say that evolution does not happen, yet they don't have an explainable mechanism for the changes that we have witnessed in nature, and in labs, and that is supported by tons of evidence.

Bring forth a plausible mechanism for the phenomenon, or consider your disagreement quite pointless.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2010, 01:16:53 AM »
Okay, there's a scientist at NASA who tosses people into Gmachines. Under the intense G forces many of them have Near Death experiences. He himself under went this experiment, despite being in perfect health.

It would seem that the relatives in the hereafter do not know when your really dead, or it's a response of an oxygen starved/stressed brain.

Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2010, 01:21:30 AM »
Okay, there's a scientist at NASA who tosses people into Gmachines. Under the intense G forces many of them have Near Death experiences. He himself under went this experiment, despite being in perfect health.

It would seem that the relatives in the hereafter do not know when your really dead, or it's a response of an oxygen starved/stressed brain.

Oxygen starved brain (NASA) = "near death".  I don't see the need to distinguish between the two.


Offline bahramthered

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2010, 01:47:33 AM »
Oh but you do. People near death often exhibit that trait.

You need to both prove that oxygen lacking the brain is not the source of these incredible stories and that your particular myths is. If you fail or refuse to you have to challenge anyone else's competing story under similar circumstance.

Offline ksm

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 05:29:19 AM »
Okay, there's a scientist at NASA who tosses people into Gmachines. Under the intense G forces many of them have Near Death experiences. He himself under went this experiment, despite being in perfect health.

It would seem that the relatives in the hereafter do not know when your really dead, or it's a response of an oxygen starved/stressed brain.

Oxygen starved brain (NASA) = "near death".  I don't see the need to distinguish between the two.

The starving the brain of oxygen induces the same effects as a NDE, then we can conclude that NDEs are merely a symptom of oxygen starvation in the brain and have no supernatural cause or component.

Offline Truth Junkie

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 06:56:57 AM »
Logistically,a "soul" can't burn,but a body can.It's called cremation.

I'd really love to hear where they think "Heaven or Hell" are besides in thier own minds and
used to control the masses who don't have the courage to question thier alleged "authority".


Offline Agga

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 07:26:39 AM »
Two questions, Dominic:
I'd also like to hear what Dominic has to say in response to those two questions.
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 08:02:13 AM »
Agree that it's worth further study.  Disagree that it shows that all NDEs are hallucination as implied by Wheels and others.

Two questions, Dominic:

Do you attribute the effects of hallucinogenic drugs to anything else but the changes in neuro-chemistry the uptake of these drugs causes, i.e. do you suggest that there is something "real" about the resulting hallucination-experiences?

By what mechanism(s) do hallucinogenic drugs gain their hallucinogenic effects, i.e. how and why do they work?


Emergence / Agga,

I don't know enough to answer either question.  I have not read hardly any drug trip experiences, nor do I know much about the chemistry of how these drugs impact the brain. 

I have heard that the experiences are often profound and can be very enjoyable (obviously not always).

Is there a web site that I can consult concerning DTEs (drug trip experiences) ?

For example - Do the subjects experience a sensation of leaving their bodies,  floating above and looking down at their bodies ?   Do they claim to meet and speak to deceased relatives or friends ?





Offline Jake

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 11:23:46 AM »
Agree that it's worth further study.  Disagree that it shows that all NDEs are hallucination as implied by Wheels and others.

Two questions, Dominic:

Do you attribute the effects of hallucinogenic drugs to anything else but the changes in neuro-chemistry the uptake of these drugs causes, i.e. do you suggest that there is something "real" about the resulting hallucination-experiences?

By what mechanism(s) do hallucinogenic drugs gain their hallucinogenic effects, i.e. how and why do they work?


Emergence / Agga,

I don't know enough to answer either question.  I have not read hardly any drug trip experiences, nor do I know much about the chemistry of how these drugs impact the brain.  

I have heard that the experiences are often profound and can be very enjoyable (obviously not always).

Is there a web site that I can consult concerning DTEs (drug trip experiences) ?

For example - Do the subjects experience a sensation of leaving their bodies,  floating above and looking down at their bodies ?   Do they claim to meet and speak to deceased relatives or friends ?


It's not a field I'm an expert in, though I did work in a semi-professional Addiction Counselor Assistant (Closest I could come to being a counselor proper without having been a recovering addict or, at that time, having a four year relevant degree myself) position for the state of Minnesota for several years during my undergrad days, and had plenty of firsthand contact with drug-favoring peers as well.     Anecdotes are all I'd be particularly qualified to give on the subject.

A lot of people I've had contact with in both of those frames that took psychotropic drugs seemed convinced that they'd had NDE's during 'good' or 'bad' trips, overdoses or bad contraindicated drug mixes.    

Most of them seemed to me to be nothing but the product of suggestion; it was what they were talking about in group sessions that week and so they all 'had a story', whether completely fabricated or not, or that they were trying to merge the 12 step programs' various degrees of religiosity with their experience, perhaps as a means of more clearly associating the two on equal terms.    

Frequently, I've been left with the personal impression that a lot of NDE claimants in those firsthand accounts were flat-out lying just to have something to talk about; some 'unique' experience that others could go 'Ooh' and 'aah' at for a few minutes and let them feel like they'd won a bit of social affirmation, acceptance or even special status, even if only briefly.

Which is to say, a lot of it seemed to me to follow the same observable pattern of myth origination.    Attempting to explain something that can't be explained and/or that inspires fear (such as death, near-death, extreme helplessness or an overwhelmingly vivid hallucination?) will frequently lead to sensations of cognitive dissonance if -some- sort of explanation cannot be tendered.   Which is to say, the rationalization process is clearly at work.

Those who were religious tended to have much more vivid, detailed and elaborate 'recounting stories' that invariably hinged upon their religious beliefs.   As the stories would change and gain complexity through their own retelling (and their own, witting or unwitting, refinement of the rationalization), come to be perfectly in line with whatever they had faith in in religious terms.   Every time I saw this happen, it happened just like that.    When they would come up and get into central focus, conflicting religiously-wrought NDE's led to almost as many of the most colorful screaming and assault confrontations in group sessions as racism, which held an undisputed spot as the primary cause for having to boot people out of the room or end the session prematurely altogether.

Fence-riders, atheists and agnostics didn't tend to have nearly so many stories as such (or didn't feel so eager/encouraged to share them), though those that did seemed to have vague stories with vivid personal elements, and their stories didn't tend to change through the typically fewer retellings.    

All in all though, the subject of NDE's proved to be a recurring fad that just about every single group would go through for a week or two, and longer-employed colleagues of mine assured me that stories like those were not only commonplace, but part of how some people were best able to work through accepting and internalizing their own experiences.    These were typically colleagues who, having been addicts themselves and gone thereafter into professional addiction counselling, remembered stories of their own.    Some of them that I worked with most every day flat-out admitted that they'd made similar stories up when they were in rehab, whether to fit in or to take a step towards owning their addiction and its consequences.    Certain others usually wouldn't talk about such things at all, of course.

Almost assuredly, just about every NDE story I heard in both that field and from drug-using peers followed the same pattern of occurrence;   topics of the supernatural would come up, thoughts and 'True Stories™' would cautiously get shared and, if nobody started laughing or ridiculing the storytellers, the stories would get increasingly far-fetched and frequently include NDE stories from the psychotropic users, if any were present, as well as or adjunct to those frequently told by people who'd had bad accidents and/or near-fatal medical problems.

I realize that absolutely none of this whole post is anything but anecdotal in nature, so I must insist that none of it be taken as anything but.   These are simply my own experiences put forth in answering comment to part of the above-quoted post from Dominic.


As to the mechanisms via which psychotropics work...here's some links google provide me that are far from anecdotal in nature--

http://www.mhri.edu.au/pdf/A%20GUIDE%20TO%20PSYCHOTROPIC%20DRUGS.pdf

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hallucinogens-and-related-disorders.html

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v11n2/11208hal.html

http://medis.hst.aau.dk/fileadmin/files/MedIS/MedIS_3_semester/psychotropic_drug_action.pdf

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/pr900128c


And a little bit about hallucinations themselves --

http://www.sleepeval.com/hallucinations.htm



Cheers!

"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline skepticlogician

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2010, 08:20:10 PM »
just come back with your answers mister preacher. i can tell i touched a nerve already. LOL. you know its all a fairytale.

Wonder, you DO know that Divon was being sarcastic, right?
"Evolutionists have proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

Offline joshnick

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 12:42:06 AM »
Gottes Wort und Luthers Lehr, die vergehen nimmermehr.

Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2010, 01:42:56 AM »
For example - Do the subjects experience a sensation of leaving their bodies,  floating above and looking down at their bodies ?

Ketamine is known to cause OBEs frequently. But so are some other drugs. See the following experience reports for example:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_OBE.shtml

Or take a look at the full list of accounts:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp_list.shtml

And these guys study OBEs: http://lnco.epfl.ch/

Quote
Do they claim to meet and speak to deceased relatives or friends ?

Some of them do. In some shamanic/religious rituals drugs (or other ritual-methods of inducing a trance) are specifically used to enable the participants to "meet their ancestors" in order to gain guidance and advice.

Or as another example read about Larry Hagman's LSD experience from the site you linked to:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers04.html


But the actual content of drug-experience is not the focus of my questions. I only want to know whether you put any stock into accounts of drug experiences and if you are aware why psychoactive drugs are suited to do this to the human brain.
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
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Offline Dominic

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2010, 07:46:11 AM »


But the actual content of drug-experience is not the focus of my questions. I only want to know whether you put any stock into accounts of drug experiences and if you are aware why psychoactive drugs are suited to do this to the human brain.

I suspect (but don't know) that certain drug experiences and NDEs are related.

I have researched NDEs a bit but I haven't researched drug experiences much at all.  It's on my to-do list.


Offline Emergence

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR PREACHERS
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 08:44:57 AM »
I suspect (but don't know) that certain drug experiences and NDEs are related.

In what way "related"? Supernaturally?
Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.
Arthur Schopenhauer