Author Topic: god lies, lucifer tells the truth  (Read 16898 times)

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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2011, 12:56:43 PM »
As I understand it, the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a trial of immortality.
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2011, 01:03:15 PM »
As I understand it, the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a trial of immortality.

This means nothing to me. Explain.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2011, 01:12:01 PM »
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2011, 01:21:36 PM »
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"

So, once again, the "perfect word of YHWH" requires a translator. Great. I've heard multiple translations before, can you provide evidence that yours is correct?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"

Flew, are you understandign this from a Christian point of view or one from the literal words?
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2011, 03:20:08 PM »
What would the difference be?
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2011, 03:32:33 PM »
What would the difference be?

as you might notice on the forum, Christians have various ways to determinen what God "really" meant beyond the words as they appear on the page.  We have those who find every word literally meant, some who find that some of the bible is from god and some is from man, and some who find that the bible has many different types of literary forms and pick and choose what they think each part is.  Some literary forms are fairly obvious, some are evidently not.
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2011, 02:12:08 PM »
How then would you approach it?  I guess its just best we're on the same page, everyone's going to do this differently...
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline screwtape

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2011, 02:17:22 PM »
I approach it in the same way I would approach any other mythology - as literature.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2011, 02:39:39 PM »
How then would you approach it?  I guess its just best we're on the same page, everyone's going to do this differently...
As Screwtape, I see it as one more set of myths.  Knowing the context in which they were written, Bronze and Iron age, I can then grasp what they are likely intended to mean. 

Flew, are you a theist?  An agnostic? An atheist?
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2011, 03:14:32 PM »
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2011, 03:25:46 PM »
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?
just a story.  The creation story was created to give reason why we're not with god right now and why bad things happen, for the Israelites/Jews.  Then the "original" and universal bits were added to for Christianity so we all are "sinners" no matter what we do, so we all "deserve" anything that happens until we accept one more myth, Jesus Christ to take those sins away.   

For a little background on me, I was a Presybyterian, looked into other religions and eventually became an atheist. 
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2011, 03:30:27 PM »
Thanks, and for the record, I think my statement can be understood from both perspectives, i.e. Christian or myth.

"...the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a loss of immortality."
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2011, 01:08:29 PM »
putting aside original sin,first of God says you shall not kill,but in the next breath telling you to kill non believers and heathens. This throws original sin out the window as dar as I am concerened.

 
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Offline mram

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2011, 02:46:42 PM »
I'm pretty sure I've broken all the commandments by now. I've committed multiple murders of insects and other creatures, but in order for it to be actual sin one has to actually believe it to be sin, but since we're all allegedly born with sin we're screwed.. Just because baptists thought it handy to get out of the deal would seem irrelevant now wouldn't it?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2011, 08:44:16 PM »
Thanks, and for the record, I think my statement can be understood from both perspectives, i.e. Christian or myth.

"...the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a loss of immortality."

so, do you think that the genesis story is literal or myth?  Same with the salvation story. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2011, 10:59:35 AM »
how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?

That is my interpretation.  That it is mythology that some people have and still do take completely literally.

If[1] it were to be looked at as literature, it does not seem to be presented in the story in a metaphorical or symbolic way.  If you look at the whole, disjointed, contradictory mess of a story right through jesus H, the characters and events that took place in Eden are taken as literal facts by the rest of the characters. 

From the perspective of the various authors of the various stories of this compillation, they also do not seem to be trying to make a veiled point by using the Eden story symbolically.  They seem to be trying to actually explain something and see their writings as "journalism" or "science" rather than a description of abstract ideas relating to the human condition. 

Contrast that with modern fiction writers.  For example, in Huckleberry Finn, when Huck and Jim hid out in the cave, it could be said the cave was a metaphor for a womb.  It was a dark, wet place that was safe for the duo where they could prepare themselves to face the world at large.  This can be said because Twain was trying to make broader points about people and life.  He never alleged that there actually was a Huck or Jim.  They are symbols themselves.  This was not the view of Eve and Adam until 200-300 years ago.  Up until the scientific revolution and the Age of Reason, they were considered to be literal, historical figures.   

In light of new knowledge, we have since tried to reinterpret these ancient stories, calling them allegory or metaphors.  But in my opinion, that is a giant failure to understand their context.  If E&A are symbolic and the story of the fall is just a metaphor, then that undermines, if not utterly destroys, the supposed literal truths espoused in the same literature.  Does that mean yhwh and the serpent are metaphors also?  What about the hebrew patriarchs who alleged to trace their lineage to Adam?  What about jesus H, whom is also alleged to have lineage traced to Adam?  If Abe, Isaac, Jake and Noah are all metaphors - ie fictional - then Luke 3:23b-24, 36-38 is shot to hell and the whole authority of jesus H is shot to hell.

As I see it, you cannot have it both ways.  The bible is either literal or literary.   

 1. notice, it is a "big if".  Ha.
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2011, 01:16:48 PM »
I take it as literal.
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline screwtape

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2011, 01:26:32 PM »
I take it as literal.

Are you sure?  That means none of those bits in the Eden story are metaphorical, none of the characters are representations of humanity at large, and everything they did actually happened factually.  Is that what you mean?
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2011, 01:41:26 PM »
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2011, 01:42:14 PM »
but I should say that I tbelieve everything in chapter 1 literally happened, just in what capacity I am not sure...
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2011, 01:50:20 PM »
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #80 on: July 05, 2011, 01:50:48 PM »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2011, 02:13:10 PM »
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.

so the snake was real?  The tree of knowledge and god being worried that if A&E eat of the tree of life they'll be just like him?  God making clothes for A&E?  Original sin?  The Flood? 

That last is my speciality, having my degree in geology.  There is no evidence for any worldwide flood.  Not one bit.
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Offline theFLEW

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2011, 02:27:58 PM »
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...
"...and how much naivety, venerable, childlike and boundlessly stupid naivety there is in the scholar's belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simply unsuspecting certainty with which his instinct treats the religious man as an inferior..." - F. Nietzsche

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2011, 02:35:30 PM »
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...

It does because Genesis 1 has already been disproven so much that it's not even funny anymore.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Historicity

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2011, 03:01:58 PM »
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?

Little Red Riding Hood is a myth about child molestation and how to warn girls that some men are wolves and how to stay out of trouble.

Goldilocks and the 3 Bears is about a girl reaching the age where she is expected not to trespass and she is no longer a toddler who will be tolerated when she does.

Rapunzel is a Liberation of the Anima[1] myth when a young man learns to distinguish between his mother and other women (who aren't good enough for her son!)

Adam & Eve are a coming of age story about taking adult powers and duties and the sorrows of adulthood.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2011, 03:09:08 PM »
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...

Would it be safe to conclude that you're a young-Earth creationist, then?  It follows fairly solidly from a literal belief in those stories.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2011, 03:48:27 PM »
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.

What happened to chapter 1?  Why are you throwing that out?

but I should say that I tbelieve everything in chapter 1 literally happened, just in what capacity I am not sure...

please explain
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