Author Topic: god lies, lucifer tells the truth  (Read 14919 times)

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Offline One Above All

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god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« on: April 02, 2010, 07:09:33 AM »
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Gaston

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 08:40:09 AM »
I don't think you can claim that was "lucifer". As far as I know it was just a "serpent". But that's aside from the point.

Adam and Eve didn't die, they just got kicked out of the garden, but they also lost their immortality. If that answers your question.
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Offline GodIsDead

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 09:29:22 AM »
Loss of immortality = death

So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Nick

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »
Yes, he killed them with old age.  The horror of it all. ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 12:45:21 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 09:34:17 AM »
Kcrady rocked this topic hard some time ago here
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Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 09:44:38 AM »
Loss of immortality = death
So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.


but according to my mom's version of the bible, he said they would die THE VERY DAY they ate from the tree
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline GodIsDead

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2010, 09:50:41 AM »
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

imo: its a bunch of bullshit. But im bored at work so coming up with random discussions is what i'm doing.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 09:55:04 AM »
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2010, 10:02:19 AM »
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.
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Offline GodIsDead

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2010, 10:03:34 AM »
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 10:05:40 AM »
That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.

exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2010, 10:08:44 AM »
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2010, 11:38:25 AM »
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of s**t and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock

Ha, ha, this one is great. Your comments (from both of you) could be used in many occasions (-:
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
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When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 05:36:29 AM »
just like i thought, xtians can't stand lucifer telling the truth while their supposedly perfect god lies through his teeth/ass/whatever is on his face
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Dominic

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 06:57:11 AM »

The Bible is not meant to be read literally.  It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.
 
When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.


Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 07:14:03 AM »
The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc


Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.

all religions are based on the same so it's not that hard to make a connection
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Dominic

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2010, 11:07:42 AM »
The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well


The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

Quote

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc


Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

Quote

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

Quote

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

Quote

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists


I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

Quote

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?


I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]


Offline One Above All

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2010, 11:32:12 AM »
The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

so first the bible is a metaphor, now it's literal. cherry picking doesnt work unless you can prove that specific parts of the bible are X or Y or Z and that they mean EXACTLY what you think they mean

Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

which church exactly? tell me, which of the ~40000 christian denominations is the real one and how do you know that it's the real one?

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

so adam and eve lived for THOUSANDS of years and yet after they were kicked out of eden, eve still was able to make two kids?
amazing. if you're gonna ask "do you know what an analogy is?" then first prove to me that it IS an analogy and that it means EXACTLY what you think it means

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved.

so god didnt care that they didnt know that what they were doing was wrong because since they didnt know good or evil, they couldnt know that not following what god says was bad

I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

consciousness is one thing, soul is another. supposedly the soul sticks around forever after the person's brain stops working. consciousness does not

I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

"best I have found" means you didnt think for yourself, you just went with someone else's ideas
also, here's a more satisfactory explanation which seems to be the explanation for everything in the theist world: godditit

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]

even IF that is true, how can you distinguish between all the different parts? and how can you be sure that the allegories/metaphors/analogies etc mean EXACTLY what you think it does?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2010, 12:10:54 PM »

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 12:24:53 PM by Gordon Freeman »
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Offline Gimpy

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2010, 12:21:57 PM »

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.


Humans existed for thousands upon thousands of years without the 10 commandments and figured out just fine how to live with each other.

It had nothing to do with a godbeing, and everything to do with humans being social animals and finding ways, culturally and socially, to advance the species.

In fact, the truth is that the core "be good" message from the bible -- treat others as you would want others to treat you -- was a main belief long before biblegod ever existed in the superstitious collection of writings that you call the bible.

But for the sake of argument, do you really think that, left to their own devices, groups of people would demand that a single god be worshiped, that no other gods be allowed to exist, that people not be allowed to make "idols" (representations of their god), or that they not take their god's name in vain, and that they must keep one day of the week devoted only to their god?

That's almost half of the Big Ten there.

ALL the others fall under the "golden rule" (with the exception of honor your parents), which, again, existed for eons before biblegod ever was dreamt of.

And I have issues with the honor you parents one as a COMMANDMENT anyway.

As we can see, in many cases, lots more than we like to believe is possible, honoring your parents when they are abusers or worse is just plain sick. The commandment doesn't make exceptions, apparently, so where is the sense in that?

Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline velkyn

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2010, 02:30:28 PM »
The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.
No, they are rules for one society that believed in one certain jealous god.  You make claims based on your desire but not on any facts.  How do you know that people would rediscover your particular god?  You don't. I am always amused that the first 10 are always spec'ed out by Christians when they ignore the rest, also all supposedly by their god and all meant for the same people.
Quote
Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.
Hmmm, how is the bible subject to the Church when the Church depends on the bible for its existence and meaning? 
Quote
I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).
which ends at the death of the body.  So your attempt to claim that a "soul" exists past this makes no sense. 
Quote
I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.
and no Christian can agree on what the "right" way to divide it is.
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Offline Nam

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2010, 04:23:28 PM »
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?

To most (or all) Christians the snake in Genesis is either the Devil or Lucifer. However, they also believe that the Devil and Lucifer are the same being; and that's never made clear either.

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2010, 10:46:56 AM »


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?


Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.


Offline Goldielocks

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2010, 05:53:35 PM »

Quote:
"exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one"


I'm not sure if anyone responded to the original question. Too much babbling by everyone...

Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2010, 12:31:28 AM »


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?


Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.



OK...

First, how can you say that The Fall of Eve and Adam is allegorical? Is The Talking Snake allegorical? Is the Creation Story allegorical? Is the flood allegorical? Is Jonah's story allegorical? Is Job's story allegorical? Is the divine birth allegorical? Resurrection? The Book of Revelation? If all these are allegorical, than what your faith is based on? A fairy tale? Isn't that what atheists are saying all the time? If not, how do you distinguish those which are allegorical and which are not?

Second, Allegorical or not, how come Eve and Adam were forgiven?! Weren't they thrown out of Eden because they couldn't be in the presence of god for they have sinned? It's been said: "You will die on the very same day you taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil." (Some verse in the bible). They died, so to me it looks like a punishment. And "they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later"?? WTF?! They didn't ask Jesus to fill their heart, so how in the world they could be forgiven by the blood of Jesus? Could I be forgiven the very same way? Why then Israelites needed the blood of pure animals to please god?

And third, "Sin led to greater potential for human kind? For the sake of the story, their sin brought murderers into world (Cain, by the way), so this is the greater potential? So, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? So, fall leads to a greater rise? Oh, now I get it... That's why god mixed human's languages in the story of Tower Of Babel, so they could make a greater rise? So, if sin was a necessity, why Eve and Adam were outcasts?

From what you're saying, the only thing rising here is a new christian denomination. The things you're saying I hear for the first time, and trust me, I met a lot of christians during certain time, and I visited camps and places... Never heard of what you are sayin'. Interesting... I need to save your post for future references... I think this would be great for my site? It got to make people laugh!
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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2010, 07:51:18 AM »
Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

What do you mean they died spiritually?  What does that mean?  Their spirits died?  Where is that written in the bible?  Is this a figure of speech?  If so, where else was this used?  Why should we not take this story in a straight forward reading[1]

If you are correct, then are we all spiritually dead?  Since no one on earth is in god's presence...


and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

If the world is 13 million years old, then 600 years is the blink of an eye.  If the world is 6000 years old, as many fundies claim, it is 10% of the age of the universe.  That would be a very long time.  Not soon after at all.
 1. you know, besides the fact that if we did that, it does not add up the way you want.
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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2010, 08:45:47 AM »
Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.
so we can rely on God to screw around for 100s of years to get around to something?   Doesnt' bode well for when he might get around to sending himself back?  I am also curious, if there was some "original sin" this should mean that no human at all should ever have had the chance to see God again.  But the bible says this isn't true.  We have Moses doing it all the time and he was a murderer on top of the "original sin". 
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Offline SOIAM

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2011, 07:13:10 PM »
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

Hello everyone,
Peace to you all,  I will post my first post on this forum here, I am Catholic and will answer your question as I understand it.  The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies, God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons. Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming  the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years. So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)
I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.
The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer, if you go to God, He looks after you here and in heaven and if you choose the tree of knowledge/Lucifer/sin you die, twice, once in the human form and a second time when you get cast into hell. So having the tree of knowledge/Lucifer in the garden wasn't what made Eve sin it was the fact that she chose to eat the fruit/disobey/sin despite the fact that she knew she had been commanded not to do so. Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did. The problem is that most of the people today are sitting in the tree all day and night eating the fruit one after the other while ignoring God and blaspheming and laughing at Him, which is not a good thing since your eternal resting place depends on His mercy and forgiveness. That explains why Gods spirit leaves as it does not like sin since it leads to certain death. So sin is death and it killed Adam and Eve. On the flip side, if we were to climb down the tree and move away from it/stop sinning, intending to never return to it we could then approach God/ ask for forgiveness and mercy and because God is so merciful if done correctly (sacrament of confession) we can obtain forgiveness and God can come closer and send His spirit back into us/live/eat of the tree of life. God Himself said that so it is true as He never lies. Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

well that is a condensed summary of what occurred. Hope it helped I can explain in more detail if you don't fully understand. Here are some of  the relevant verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Genesis 3. 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.

8 *And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise. 9 And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? 10 And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. 11 And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? 12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

*notice how God was able to walk with Adam and Eve since they were sinless, God was able to approach and walk among them.

14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and the beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

This is a prophecy relating to the Jesus' Mother Virgin Mary, she is often depicted in statues crushing the head of the serpent with her heel, that won't happen until Lucifer and all his followers get defeated and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.

20 And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living. 21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.

22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying, and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct, thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth. Shame really.
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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2011, 08:27:13 PM »
Hello everyone,
Peace to you all,  I will post my first post on this forum here, I am Catholic and will answer your question as I understand it.

Hello, SOIAM. As they say, "Peace be with you," I say, "And also with you."

Let's get started.

The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies, God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

The snake never revealed itself to be Satan. However, the snake signifies deceit. God did lie. Dying is not an issue to take lightly. He didn't say he'd exile them from the Garden of Eden. He could have said that, yet instead, he told them they would die.

Adam and Eve had nothing taken away, other than being exiled from the Garden [I imagine it to be a pretty place]. He did not take away "His Spirit", nor "His Graces", nor "His Virtues". After he exiled them, Adam and Eve decided to settle down and have children. Their children had children [through incest]. God gave them His blessing and thought all this to be good, as said in the Bible. He indeed did exile them from the Garden and thus, denied them access to the Tree of Knowledge. But he took nothing more away from Adam and Eve. They both went off on their journey to expand. That's it.

The archangel with its fiery sword guarded the gate to the Garden. Did God also take away their protection? No. You know why, SOAMI? He's God! He can definitely protect them, whether they be in that Garden, which nobody else could enter, or on the other side of the world. Adam and Eve were never under attack from demons, nor Satan himself. The beginning of the Book of Genesis showed Adam and Eve to be prospering.

Again, I say, as I have read: Nothing was taken away from them. Instead, they gained from eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge [and the tree implies what it gave them]. They realized they were naked, first thing. Is being naked "beautiful"? I guess so! What God was depriving them from was corruption of any kind. When they ate that fruit, they were no longer "innocent like children" [Jesus asks this of all his followers]. God was disobeyed. The snake deceived them by telling them that it's OK to eat the fruit. However, them being "innocent", they knew no better. God only wants the utmost obedience from his followers. No more, no less. His word is law.

For them to be "corrupted" with the most basic of knowledge, it gave God the danger of not being followed as the puny humans are supposed to. From the beginning, all he wants is humans to fear him, nor disobey him. The more "innocent" and naive they are, the better it is for Him. Why? I do not know. It is not explained in the Bible.

As a side-note: Isn't it funny that the more people know, the more likely they are to be free of any religion or anything that is meant to "woo" people? To me, this is as much as much mythology as the Greek's, the Egyptian's, the early Semitic people's [etc] pantheon.

I digress though. It's interesting to talk about this. Now that we got this all clarified, let's move on.

Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming  the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years.

Nothing to clarify here. The Tree of Life was keeping them alive more than they should be alive. They were to be forever alive, because they were both His only creations, and innocent like children, naive, and more than willing to worship Him. Did they ever think beyond anything? No. The whole point of them not eating it was, in a way, to see how far their obedience would go, even as naive and obeying as they were. God made a mistake, which is surprising since God is supposed to be a perfect being free of error: Omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-seeing.

So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin.

Yes, they had sinned by simply disobeying God. It's too bad that according to this one story, every single human will go to hell and no one is able to reach heaven, according to the mythological phenomenon that is presented in the Bible, even with after the story of Jesus and God saying he can forgive mankind for their sins. It's just not possible to get to heaven with modern Christianity where it's at.

And again, Lucifer was not there. He did not attack Adam and Eve. They were not harmed, other than not consuming the Tree of Life made them immortal no more. Personally, I don't see why I would want to be immortal; boring, boring, boring. I guess back then, immortality seemed cool.

Regarding their deaths, according to how Christianity works, yes. They would go to hell, unless God relieved them from their sins and took them to heaven. I don't think it ever says anything regarding where they ended up in the afterlife. As the Book of Genesis shifts focus into their children, their fate ended up being irrelevant. It is not clear in the Bible as to what happened to them after their deaths.

Anyway, it seems that there's infinite transgression. It only took one time to sin, and it can only be assumed that they were destined to hell. Just like all other humans would be under modern Christianity today. I'll tell you now, SOAMI, and only once, and that is that no human is in heaven. Of course, people say the weirdest things in name of the Christian God, despite the fact he's not present, nor saying anything. They say that everyone that believes go to heaven, or that God just randomly picks and chooses. That's not how it works when the Bible is finally read and understood, however.

Moving on.

(Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride)

Nowhere does it say that in the Bible. That is up to personal interpretation, which is not proper practice of hermeneutics. What happened to Lucifer was simply an act of rebellion gone, well, exactly like it should have gone; God is all-knowing and omnipotent. Lucifer wasn't going to win, and SOIAM: Satan can never win to begin with. The only way the being could win is if God gets lazy and decides, "Nah. I'm not going to save this person. Simply because. I don't care if I get more followers that way." Under the assumption this being exists.

that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

Adam and Eve never lost God, SOAMI. They simply got kicked out of a nice garden and were denied immortality. And again, Satan is not supposed to win to begin with. It goes against the very mythological phenomenon that God is omnipotent, like He says he is. Yet, there are instances in which God "loses", or nothing is done about the situation.

It just leads to the conclusion that this deity doesn't exist, nor any other deity/supernatural being.

I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.
The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer, if you go to God, He looks after you here and in heaven and if you choose the tree of knowledge/Lucifer/sin you die, twice, once in the human form and a second time when you get cast into hell. So having the tree of knowledge/Lucifer in the garden wasn't what made Eve sin it was the fact that she chose to eat the fruit/disobey/sin despite the fact that she knew she had been commanded not to do so.

...Or it could be, like many Christians believe today, that this all happened. That none of it is metaphorical. That it is not up to personal interpretation. Because according to Christian mythology, the Bible IS the Word of God. There's nothing more to this, other than what was already clarified and said.

The Tree of Knowledge was... just there. Why did God place it there? Bible doesn't clarify. Because we both know that God is in control of evil, as said in the Bible, it can be assumed that He placed the snake there to see the range of His creations' obedience. And since he is all-knowing, this all was supposed to happen. However, that's too perfect, and God made one too many mistakes throughout the Bible [this being is supposed to be perfect, and also an angry and jealous one] that contradicts this deity's nature. The mythology as described in the Bible is very flawed. It's terribly obvious different authors wrote it, and that they really had no clue how to make up the story further in order to make it clearer.

Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did.

And that everyone's going to hell, including all "good" and "true" Christians.

The problem is that most of the people today are sitting in the tree all day and night eating the fruit one after the other while ignoring God and blaspheming and laughing at Him, which is not a good thing since your eternal resting place depends on His mercy and forgiveness.

Most people? You are describing the other side of your religion, which is Satanism. "Most people" are not Satanists, SOAMI. Neither is anyone on WWGHA. I think, if my memory's right, when this one Satanist came up recently upon WWGHA, he was ridiculed well-enough to see that people that are free of deities and the supernatural are not the equivalent to the "evil" side of mythology.

What I am is appalled. Appalled because the Bible is very poorly written. The battle between "Good and Evil" is very flawed; it's like reading a bad book, and it's not making any sense. Practicing hermeneutics doesn't make it any better, unless they drop hermenetics, and go with pure personal interpretation according to emotion. Which is not scholarly. Which is incorrect.

Now that we are onto Satanists, they are deluded and even bigger idiots. I don't understand them, just like I don't understand Christians believing in a flawed deity who is not supposed to be flawed. Ultimately, the ones worshiping/going with the supposed evil side, is no more better.

Like you see, I am neutral [because I don't believe in your deity nor any other, so I have no emotional attachment, except my husband, of course] and discussing about the Bible. Anyway.

That explains why Gods spirit leaves as it does not like sin since it leads to certain death. So sin is death and it killed Adam and Eve.

Again, personal interpretation = Is a no-no

Sin is not death. Nowhere is it stated in the Bible. Adam and Eve died like they were supposed to, since they no longer ate the Tree of Life. God denied them immortality.

On the flip side, if we were to climb down the tree and move away from it/stop sinning, intending to never return to it we could then approach God/ ask for forgiveness and mercy and because God is so merciful if done correctly (sacrament of confession) we can obtain forgiveness and God can come closer and send His spirit back into us/live/eat of the tree of life.

Only to end up in hell? Again, the Bible mythology is just incredibly flawed...

It's Catch 22: No Christian is going to heaven, even if they believe with the very bottom of their hearts, or whatever emotional appeal there is to the religion. But, if they'd rather believe that they are going to heaven, even though technically, everyone is going to hell, just for the emotional comfort, then err... Go right ahead?

God Himself said that so it is true as He never lies.

We already went over this. God did lie, also, about his followers going to heaven. Again, infinite transgression. Whatever sin you commit first will be the destiny to your fate, according to the Bible. Even with some priest telling you that you are forgiven. Even with Jesus "dying for mankind's sins".

Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

Asleep? Everyone's fully awake and living, as this planet goes 'round and 'round. Life always moves on. And this "major disaster" you speak of, which I assume is the Rapture, still has yet to come, after millennia. There is no "and this time it will happen!" It's just mythology.

And as I already mentioned, every Christian is going to hell, simply according to all of the content in the Bible. Which means you would be going to hell, too, and even those who do "good deeds" are not saved. Fortunately, since this religion is just as real as Jaidaism and Animism, that won't happen.

well that is a condensed summary of what occurred. Hope it helped I can explain in more detail if you don't fully understand.

Don't worry. Vast majority, if not, all people here at WWGHA, have read the majority, or all, of the Bible. We also have knowledge of other religions and anything "wooing". You do not need to display Bible verses unless absolutely necessary. Everyone should have at the least read the whole Book of Genesis, so no need for the relevant Bible verses.

God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying, and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct, thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth. Shame really.

Err. Keep the personal interpretation to yourself, SOAMI. You lost everyone here.

Despite that, nice discussing with you.