Nothing can be used to prove Islam wrong, Commentary Thread

[Inactive_1]

All comments by members other than the two primary debaters will be in this thread.

[Emily]

ON the contrary Islam is all consistent and no such errors exist
Maybe there are some vague words in Quran, but God talked about it and said, there will be time when you know the meaning of those vague things
and for the time being, accept it as it is

I am a bit curious. Where are these vague word that might be in the Quran that you speak of.

It's a bit unfair to simply pick out some contradictions in the bible, and not quote the vagueness of the Quran. It seems like you left us hanging.

Also, where did "God talkd about it, and said, there will be time when you and for the time being, accept it as it is".

So far SoA's opening statement is not impressive. There should be more meat to it. Expand on the vagueness of the Quran.

(Also, Narrow is an atheist, so I doubt he's arguing for the Bible)

EDIT: Also, SoA, here's a site that might interest you;

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

It points out many flaws in the Bible.

However, for those debating against Islam there is also, there's a Skeptic Annotated Quran;

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/

[Gimpy]

ON the contrary Islam is all consistent and no such errors exist
Maybe there are some vague words in Quran, but God talked about it and said, there will be time when you know the meaning of those vague things
and for the time being, accept it as it is

Well, isn't that a cozy "get out of jail free card"!

Which is ridiculous because ALL religions have that SAME card, including christianity.

So far I agree with Emily.

No support whatsoever on that first post, he totally blew it.

[Ada-B]

I feel uncomfortable debating atheism with Muslims. I worry that if I convince them, they might be considered apostates, and we know what happens to apostates, especially those living in Islamic countries.

[Emily]

Maybe there are some vague words in Quran, but God talked about it and said, there will be time when you know the meaning of those vague things
and for the time being, accept it as it is

They are future predictions and scientific facts that human discover by time

That seems like a convenient way to cover up any contradictions that are presented to you. As well, it sounds like an excuse to make up something scientific from a book full of gibberish.

It is. To rephase: Whatever contradictions and vague things said NOW real science will reveal the real truths in the future, then I will change  myself and my holy book's quotes to include those scientific discoveries, so it seems like my holy book predicted those discoveries.

One question to SoV? Why does god (Allah) seem so willing to be so vague?

[CutePuppy]

It is. To rephase: Whatever contradictions and vague things said NOW real science will reveal the real truths in the future, then I will change  myself and my holy book's quotes to include those scientific discoveries, so it seems like my holy book predicted those discoveries.

One question to SoV? Why does god (Allah) seem so willing to be so vague?

You know the quran actually has a verse to say just that?

http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran2.html

002.106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?

Let's ignore the obvious implications concerning imperfection for a second. If you're substituting something with something that is better, how are you not abrogating the former something? And if they're both still valid/used, how is it a substitution?

Maybe it's a translation thing. There are, apparently, more possible translations (for this verse): http://islamawakened.org/quran/2/106/default.htm

See also:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qi019.html

And for whatever verse we abrogate and cast into oblivion
We bring a better or the like of it;
knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?
-- Sura 2:106

Makes more sense.

http://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/chapter2part1/ (I like this blog, but it seems she's gotten the verse number for this particular topic wrong?)

[lectricpharaoh]

My point is that you can prove Islam wrong

I know this was probably a typo, but yes, that is our point.  We can.

Nothing means almost nothing

Wrong.  Nothing means nothing.  Quit redefining words to mean what you think they should mean.

Fluid is very similar to water, the fluid is mostly water

Again, wrong.  Gases and liquids are fluids, and water (at least in non-solid states) is just one example.  Cooking oil is a common example of a fluid that is not water.

Dust with water makes mud

This would depend on what the dust was (dry dirt particles or something else), as well as whether the fluid in question was water.  However, let's say that dust and water make mud.  In what way is mud still dust, or water?  Saying it is partly dust or partly water might be correct, but saying it is dust or water is completely wrong.

If you doubt me, drink mud instead of water whenever you're thirsty.  After all, by your logic, it's the same as water.

Clot is a stage in the womb

Made of dust, mud, water, nothing, or...?  Your Quran can't seem to decide.

Modern science found that Dust elements is very similar to human
and human when he dies turn into dust

What is a 'dust element', how is it similar to a human, and what scientists demonstrated this?

I feel uncomfortable debating atheism with Muslims. I worry that if I convince them, they might be considered apostates, and we know what happens to apostates, especially those living in Islamic countries.

Yes, but if they reject Islam because they see it's irrational, then presumably that is because they have become rational, and would know that they should keep their apostasy to themselves, at least as long as they live in a country under Sharia law.

[Gimpy]

Hey!

SoA really IS Muslim Girl, isn't he?

[lectricpharaoh]

^^ Yeah, I think so.  I'm just waiting for the banhammer to fall again.

[ReasonIsOutToLunch]

Is there anything in the debate rules about changing the meaning of words? I just don't see how you can debate someone with words if they just get to redefine what those words mean. "Um chair well it means a place where you can sit or it also means a place where you sleep. Really a chair is the same as a bed."" God, well god that means something that says I am right and you are wrong, that's all. So anytime I say god says this I am automatically right."

Seems the way theists want to argue anyway. I just can't see the point of debateing Mr. and/or Mrs. Iamrightyouarewrong. I also don't see the point of debating if it just disintergrates into a debate over the use of every fricken word.

SoA, a clot is not a fetus. You won't find that definition in any medical dictionary. If at any point your doctor describes a fetus as a clot, you should find another doctor or you may find yourself being "cured" of kidney stones with leeches.

[Azdgari]

Modern science found that Dust elements is very similar to human

Except for, I dunno, the whole "silica" thing.

[Gimpy]

SoA, a clot is not a fetus. You won't find that definition in any medical dictionary. If at any point your doctor describes a fetus as a clot, you should find another doctor or you may find yourself being "cured" of kidney stones with leeches.

Well, sometimes a "clot" is a "fetus," when the "fetus" was actually a only a collection of uterine tissue and you were never pregnant to begin with. In other words, NOT a "fetus."

Actually, vaginal clots are nothing more than old clumps of gelatinous uterine tissue (from the endometrium lining shedding) mixed with congealed blood. Sounds yummy. But it is virtually impossible for vaginal clots, or any clots for that matter, ever to be confused with a "fetus" or ever to BECOME a "fetus."

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Allah lied to you.

[Servant of Allah]

Also, where did "God talkd about it, and said, there will be time when you and for the time being, accept it as it is".

3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur’ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Fara’id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).

So far SoA's opening statement is not impressive. There should be more meat to it. Expand on the vagueness of the Quran.

this for the debate, I'll explain what he sees as vague

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/

I read some of those called contradictions, and most of them are trials to generalize what is not or apply rules where it does not

but you are welcome to specify interesting points for you, and I'll try to answer them

[none]

how many muslim men wear burkas and dresses in public?

[Gimpy]

O my gawd!

Now he's saying it wasn't a "clot" it was supposed to be "leech"

mwhahahahahahahahaha. Well I will agree and have often said that babies are parasites sucking the life out of their mothers, but that doesn't end with birth. It continues for decades! mwahahahahahaha

Sorry I think this is a wrong translation of Quran, it is a leech not a clot



But even so an embryo, or fetus is not a "leech" in the literal sense. So either way, the koran and allah are both wrong!

[screwtape]

If the point of the debate is "Nothing can be used to prove islam wrong", then debate over. 

Yes, this just a comparison
My point is that you can prove Islam wrong

Slave of allah conceded.

[SpineOfSteel]

I gotta say, I've worked with numerous embryos[1] and leeches, and they really don't look a thing alike.

1.	By embryos I am refering to frog, chicken and pig embryos, which are damn near impossible to tell apart from human embryos at certain stages.

[blue]

Well this has turned into Servant of Allah sticking his fingers into his ear's and going "La, La, La. I can't hear you" to reality or even to what he's said himself. Sad really.

To sum it up. The koran means what I want it to mean unless its proven otherwise in which case it still does, just not in the way the words actually mean. He's right then, nothing can prove Islam right because there's no way to prove anything with Islam using his logic. He can't prove anything for or against.

[JesusYourLord]

there are many statements that conforms 100% to scientific discoveries
and more there is no one statement that contradicts science

Salaam, Servant of Allah. Have you by chance ever read what the Quran says about the stars?


Quran. Surah 37, verses 6 to 8.

Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars
And as protection against every rebellious devil
[So] they may not listen to the exalted assembly [of angels] and are pelted from every side,

Quran. Surah 67, verses 3 to 5.

[And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks?
Then return [your] vision twice again. [Your] vision will return to you humbled while it is fatigued.
And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.

Quran. Surah 71, verses 15 to 16.

Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers
And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?

If we ignore the fact that the stars are supposed to be some sort of shield for Allah and his host of angels to prevent devils from "listening", these verses state that the stars are in the lowest of 7 heavens. The moon is only said to be "therein" in the Heavens, which usually means somewhere inside. Just to convince you of this, here are several translations of Surah 71 verse 16.

Sahih International
And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?
Muhsin Khan
And has made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
Pickthall
And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
Yusuf Ali
"'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
Shakir
And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?
Dr. Ghali
And He has made the moon therein for a light, and He has made the sun for a luminary?

So according to your Quran the star is in the lowest of seven heavens and the moon somewhere therein. Now it seems to me that the Quran says the moon is farther away from earth than the stars are. But as we all know today, this is just wrong. How do you explain this?

[Servant of Allah]

So according to your Quran the star is in the lowest of seven heavens and the moon somewhere therein. Now it seems to me that the Quran says the moon is farther away from earth than the stars are. But as we all know today, this is just wrong. How do you explain this?

Yes the physical stars are in heaven1 but does not mean that heaven 2 is totally outside heaven 1 or surrounding it
A commit can be used to hit daemons in heaven 2, we don't know how but this is what Islam says, so they interacts

Nothing specifically say that the moon is higher than the stars, on the contrary it tells a scientific fact that the Sun is burning and the Moon is just lighting

[stilldeciding]

I love how "servent of Allah" is real similar to people in my family.

There are flaws in the Quran. It's not perfect.

You can NOT say "it means this. It means that. It was for mohammeds time." It is suppose to be the perfect word of god. My dad boasts about how it is unchanged. I know Arabic (I had to learn it) and have read the Quran.

Seriously speaking, there is NO god. We will only live once, enjoy the time you have on this world.

[JesusYourLord]

So according to your Quran the star is in the lowest of seven heavens and the moon somewhere therein. Now it seems to me that the Quran says the moon is farther away from earth than the stars are. But as we all know today, this is just wrong. How do you explain this?

Yes the physical stars are in heaven1 but does not mean that heaven 2 is totally outside heaven 1 or surrounding it
A commit can be used to hit daemons in heaven 2, we don't know how but this is what Islam says, so they interacts

As the creator of the universe and the inventor of mathematics and logic, I would expect a more precise explanation than this, especially since the verses in the Quran are supposed to prove a divine author. Why so ambigous? Why talk of concepts of heavens that are completely unknown to humans?

Nothing specifically say that the moon is higher than the stars, on the contrary it tells a scientific fact that the Sun is burning and the Moon is just lighting

Ah yes, I have heard this many times. First of all, I don't think we needed God's infallible wisdom to work this out. The sun is always shining, and just by looking at it and feeling the heat you can deduce that it is fire (as many ancient religions and myths tell) or a lamp as you would say. Does the Quran say that the sun is a star by the way?

The moon on the other hand may look like a source of light, but only on the full moon. Most of the time there are shades on it. This is well known and easily seen from earth. This does not look like a source of light to me.


There is also this, Quran surah 25 verse 61.
Sahih International
Blessed is He who has placed in the sky great stars and placed therein a [burning] lamp and luminous moon.
Muhsin Khan
Blessed be He Who has placed in the heaven big stars, and has placed therein a great lamp (sun), and a moon giving light.
Pickthall
Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!
Yusuf Ali
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;
Shakir
Blessed is He Who made the constellations in the heavens and made therein a lamp and a shining moon.
Dr. Ghali
Supremely Blessed is He Who has made in the heaven constellations, and He has made therein a luminary and an enlightening moon.

No one is talking about a reflected light in this verse. Some talk about a moon giving light. How strange.

[Servant of Allah]

I love how "servent of Allah" is real similar to people in my family.

There are flaws in the Quran. It's not perfect.

surely the flaws are in your brain 

You can NOT say "it means this. It means that. It was for mohammeds time." It is suppose to be the perfect word of god. My dad boasts about how it is unchanged. I know Arabic (I had to learn it) and have read the Quran.

It seems that you don't know your own language, read Wikipedia under "Nothing" then you will find that nothing means "Nothing important" or nothing relevant

[SpineOfSteel]

...

You can NOT say "it means this. It means that. It was for mohammeds time." It is suppose to be the perfect word of god. My dad boasts about how it is unchanged. I know Arabic (I had to learn it) and have read the Quran.

It seems that you don't know your own language, read Wikipedia under "Nothing" then you will find that nothing means "Nothing important" or nothing relevant

Wikipedia isn't a valid source as it can be edited by anyone, even those who have no qualifications in the entry they edit.

[Jake]

Islam is one of the premier murderous religions going that makes incredulous claims, dehumanizing demands and farcical self-justifications for all of it's completely batshit behavior.

And no, I do not separate the 'moderate' muslims from the 'extremists'.   They're all bowing at the direction of the same psychoses-demanding book, and insofar as I'm concerned, even the most benign pious muslim is, at best, a privately deranged lunatic that's just not obeying the Qur'an and its appendices as much as myriad imams would like them to.

There is nothing acceptable or reasonable about this religion in moral terms, and in humanitarian regards?   It's on the top five most dangerous and bad-for-humanity manifestations of mental illness going.

 

[Operator_A25]

I love how "servent of Allah" is real similar to people in my family.

There are flaws in the Quran. It's not perfect.

surely the flaws are in your brain 

You can NOT say "it means this. It means that. It was for mohammeds time." It is suppose to be the perfect word of god. My dad boasts about how it is unchanged. I know Arabic (I had to learn it) and have read the Quran.

It seems that you don't know your own language, read Wikipedia under "Nothing" then you will find that nothing means "Nothing important" or nothing relevant

Servant of Allah,

You are equivocating.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nothing

1. Not any thing; no thing.

2. An absence of anything, including empty space, brightness, darkness, matter, or a vacuum.

3. (slang, in double negatives) Anything
I didn't see nothing. [= I didn't see anything]).

4. Something trifling, or of no consequence.
What happened to your face? — It's nothing.

You are using the 4th definition incorrectly.

[Narrow Mullen]

Oh my, it seems the debate has moved to the commentary thread. Should I leave it be, or continue the previous debate?

[Operator_A25]

Continue in the regular debate thread. I didn't want to interrupt the debate, but I wanted to point that out in case Deus is unavailable.

[Servant of Allah]

Wikipedia isn't a valid source as it can be edited by anyone, even those who have no qualifications in the entry they edit.

Even if it is not, it is common sense

When somebody ask you, what is in your pocket? you can say nothing
While you have air, germs, particles, dust in your pocket
but it is silly to say that