Author Topic: Nothing can be used to prove Islam wrong, other religions can be proved wrong  (Read 3838 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Inactive_1

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 2242
  • Darwins +10/-2
  • Gender: Male
This is a debate between Servant of Allah and Narrow Mullen. All comments need to be posted in the Commentary Thread.

Servant of Allah will go first.

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
Even that we are not debating Christianity, I'd like just to put an example

this site talks about errors and contradictions in the Bible
Just taking two examples of them

2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem"
Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"

Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."

there is no way that both statements can be correct, either one of them or both are wrong

also many people can bring illogical and unfair statements in the bible or most other religions

ON the contrary Islam is all consistent and no such errors exist
Maybe there are some vague words in Quran, but God talked about it and said, there will be time when you know the meaning of those vague things
and for the time being, accept it as it is

They are future predictions and scientific facts that human discover by time

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
Insert Quote
Even that we are not debating Christianity, I'd like just to put an example

this site talks about errors and contradictions in the Bible
Just taking two examples of them

2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem"
Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"

Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."

there is no way that both statements can be correct, either one of them or both are wrong

also many people can bring illogical and unfair statements in the bible or most other religions
I don't see the point in the example, even if Christianity is flawed, its flaws do not make Islam correct.

Quote
ON the contrary Islam is all consistent and no such errors exist

Contradiction on what was man created from, thanks to Skeptics Annotated Bible.

What was man created from?

Quote
Water
And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54
Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45

A Clot
In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2

Clay or Mud
He it is Who hath created you from clay. 6:2
We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26
He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7
When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71
He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14

Dust
He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59
And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20
Allah created you from dust.... 35:11

A drop of fluid
He hath created man from a drop of fluid. 16:4

Nothing
Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? 19:67

Quote
Maybe there are some vague words in Quran, but God talked about it and said, there will be time when you know the meaning of those vague things
and for the time being, accept it as it is

They are future predictions and scientific facts that human discover by time
That seems like a convenient way to cover up any contradictions that are presented to you. As well, it sounds like an excuse to make up something scientific from a book full of gibberish.

Islam has nothing new to offer in the way of religions. It is a primitive religion, full of violence and discrimination. There is no evidence for its validity. No godly knowledge, no proven miracles, nothing.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
I don't see the point in the example, even if Christianity is flawed, its flaws do not make Islam correct.
Yes, this just a comparison
My point is that you can prove Islam wrong

Quote
Water
And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54
Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45

A Clot
In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2

Clay or Mud
He it is Who hath created you from clay. 6:2
We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26
He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7
When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71
He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14

Dust
He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59
And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20
Allah created you from dust.... 35:11

A drop of fluid
He hath created man from a drop of fluid. 16:4

Nothing
Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? 19:67
Many words can be used to describe the same thing and all of them are true

Nothing means almost nothing
Fluid is very similar to water, the fluid is mostly water
Dust with water makes mud
Clot is a stage in the womb

Modern science found that Dust elements is very similar to human
and human when he dies turn into dust

Where is the contradiction? (Do you have something similar to the ones in the Bible)?

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
Many words can be used to describe the same thing and all of them are true
Can you provide any dictionary that has "water" and "mud" listed as synonyms?

Quote
Nothing means almost nothing
No, I'm pretty sure nothing means nothing.

Quote
Fluid is very similar to water, the fluid is mostly water
Water is a fluid, but fluids are not always water. Fluids are gases or liquids that can flow, they do not need to involve water.

Quote
Dust with water makes mud
Agreed, it can, but why would the Quran use multiple terms for the same thing?

Quote
Clot is a stage in the womb
I could find no information regarding pregnancy when a fetus is referred to as a clot, could you provide a link to a medical website saying so?

Quote
Modern science found that Dust elements is very similar to human
and human when he dies turn into dust
What is a dust element?

Quote
Where is the contradiction? (Do you have something similar to the ones in the Bible)?
I have shown you the contradiction, but would be more than happy to provide another.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
why would the Quran use multiple terms for the same thing?
It depends on the context, for example if a person is proud, God can say to him, don't be proud you were nothing
this is a figure of speech, and it is used a lot in Arabic

In another context, God will say, human is created from dust and into dust he will return
It is not in harmony to say he was created from mud then he will return to dust

In English I saw in cowboy movies before a person can say to another "You are a dead man" was he lying?
?Also in poetry I think that those things are used a lot, a man can say to his beloved girl, "You are the sunshine of my life"
You call celebrities stars!

Quote
Quote
Clot is a stage in the womb
I could find no information regarding pregnancy when a fetus is referred to as a clot, could you provide a link to a medical website saying so?
Sorry I think this is a wrong translation of Quran, it is a leech not a clot


Quote
What is a dust element?
I mean elements, minerals and materials that compose dust

http://www.islamhouse.com/

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
It depends on the context, for example if a person is proud, God can say to him, don't be proud you were nothing
this is a figure of speech, and it is used a lot in Arabic

In another context, God will say, human is created from dust and into dust he will return
It is not in harmony to say he was created from mud then he will return to dust

In English I saw in cowboy movies before a person can say to another "You are a dead man" was he lying?
?Also in poetry I think that those things are used a lot, a man can say to his beloved girl, "You are the sunshine of my life"
You call celebrities stars!
But water, mud, dust, fluids, and clots/leeches are not interchangable like that. Words can have different meanings, but in no dictionary will you find that any of these words have the same meaning.

Quote
Sorry I think this is a wrong translation of Quran, it is a leech not a clot
Why didn't you correct clot off the start, why did you agree to it being a clot earlier, but now change it?
Could you provide me a medical website that describes a stage in fetal development to resemble a leech? To me, it looks like a blob, and could be compared to many things.

Quote
I mean elements, minerals and materials that compose dust
Much dust, especially in human residences, is made up of skin and hair cells. We are not made up of dust, dust is made up of us.
Now, if the Quran listed all of the elements in the human body, then I would be impressed.

Are there any "scientific" messages in the Quran that are not encrypted, mistranslated, or misunderstood? Has studying the Quran ever provided any scientific knowledge that was applied before mainstream science found out about it? Has studying the Quran helped develop any scientific theories? Can you give me one scientific theory that was discovered by reading the Quran?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
But water, mud, dust, fluids, and clots/leeches are not interchangable like that. Words can have different meanings, but in no dictionary will you find that any of these words have the same meaning.
They don't have the same meaning, both in Quran or the dictionary
A celebrity, icon, star, godess are also not equal
Note also that in ancient Arabic they use the word water=liquid, air=gas
and the human stages are different as well


Quote
Why didn't you correct clot off the start, why did you agree to it being a clot earlier, but now change it
There are more than one translation of Quran, some they have mistakes
and the two words in Arabic are very close, beside that people at the time of prophet did not know much about science


Quote
Are there any "scientific" messages in the Quran that are not encrypted, mistranslated, or misunderstood?
there are many statements that conforms 100% to scientific discoveries
and more there is no one statement that contradicts science

Quote
Has studying the Quran ever provided any scientific knowledge that was applied before mainstream science found out about it?
Has studying the Quran helped develop any scientific theories? Can you give me one scientific theory that was discovered by reading the Quran?
Quran is not a science book, and even if it has something like that, how it will impress people, they will say that Mohamed or another person discovered it
The real wonder will come when a non Muslim in the 20th century discover something then find it in Quran


Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
They don't have the same meaning, both in Quran or the dictionary
A celebrity, icon, star, godess are also not equal
Note also that in ancient Arabic they use the word water=liquid, air=gas
and the human stages are different as well
I think you lost me. If they don't have the same meaning, then why are they used seperately to say how humans are made? If they're not similar, then it is contradictory to say in one place that we were created from water, and in another, say were are created from dust.

Quote
There are more than one translation of Quran, some they have mistakes
and the two words in Arabic are very close, beside that people at the time of prophet did not know much about science
And which translation has no mistakes? The one that you use? How do you decide which translation is any more correct than another?

Quote
there are many statements that conforms 100% to scientific discoveries
and more there is no one statement that contradicts science
Yes, exactly, your statements conform to science.
I, along with many other scientists, would think that the being created from mud statement contradicts science.

Quote
Quran is not a science book, and even if it has something like that, how it will impress people, they will say that Mohamed or another person discovered it
The real wonder will come when a non Muslim in the 20th century discover something then find it in Quran
Of course it's not a science book, that's what makes it so unbelieveable. If the Quran had clear, unambiguous statements about scientific discoveries, centuries before they were discovered, then it might be believeable.
No, that wouldn't be a wonder. A wonder would be actually using the Quran to discover something, not looking for a hidden meaning afterwards.

Now, you said that nothing can prove Islam wrong, there are no contradictions, etc. You requested it to be the title of the debate. I have given you passages that are clearly contradictory regarding how people were created. Please explain, using the Quran, what we were created from. Dust? Mud? Water? Fluid? A clot/leech? These things are clearly not similar in any way, therefore, four out of five of the statements must be false.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
If they're not similar, then it is contradictory to say in one place that we were created from water, and in another, say were are created from dust.
because human is created on stages, dust with water become mud, mud after a while become clay, and this is only for Adam
the leech is a stage for the fetus, the other reason will be the context like "nothing"

Quote
And which translation has no mistakes? The one that you use? How do you decide which translation is any more correct than another?
i don't think there is one without mistakes, that is cleared when we know more as science discoveries

Quote
I, along with many other scientists, would think that the being created from mud statement contradicts science.
that is my point there can be different opinions, but not clear errors

Quote
A wonder would be actually using the Quran to discover something, not looking for a hidden meaning afterwards.
Then you will say, this was long time ago and maybe they knew it before

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
because human is created on stages, dust with water become mud, mud after a while become clay, and this is only for Adam
the leech is a stage for the fetus, the other reason will be the context like "nothing"
Mud does not become clay. You can keep a pile of mud for as long as you want, but it will never become clay.
Show me one medical site that refers to a stage of the fetus as a "leech".

Quote
i don't think there is one without mistakes, that is cleared when we know more as science discoveries
So all copies of the Quran are flawed?

Quote
that is my point there can be different opinions, but not clear errors
Yes, it is a pretty clear error. You cannot make people out of mud, nor water, nor dust. It just doesn't happen.

Quote
Then you will say, this was long time ago and maybe they knew it before
What? If Muslim society had technology, medicine, and other scientific discoveries, that were hundreds of years superior to ours, then a divine being might be an acceptable answer. Knowledge that would have been impossible to discover hundreds of years ago might be a good example of having divine knowledge.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
Quote
Mud does not become clay. You can keep a pile of mud for as long as you want, but it will never become clay.
This was the creation of Adam not every human!

Quote
Show me one medical site that refers to a stage of the fetus as a "leech".
(In Arabic) Leech means something that clings or attach (It does not have to be the insect itself with the same name)

they both hand or attach to flesh, and suck blood or food


Quote
So all copies of the Quran are flawed?
Quran itself is in Arabic, Translations are not Quran, they are just what some human try to understand in another language

Quote
Knowledge that would have been impossible to discover hundreds of years ago might be a good example of having divine knowledge.
there is a lot of this in Quran
Try to figure how Mohamed knew about it
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQVEZlr9fRQ&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Quote
This was the creation of Adam not every human!
So there is no scientific explanation for his creation, only "magic"?

Quote
(In Arabic) Leech means something that clings or attach (It does not have to be the insect itself with the same name)
Question dodging. Show me one medical site that claims there is a leech stage in fetal development.

Quote
Quran itself is in Arabic, Translations are not Quran, they are just what some human try to understand in another language
So all translations are flawed? How is it you know the correct information? Do you translate everything by yourself?

Quote
there is a lot of this in Quran
Try to figure how Mohamed knew about it
There is none of this, it is all ambiguous statements that you are trying to twist into your own meaning. Are there any clear messages, or is it all up to interpretation?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Now, I would like to end this here, unless my opponent has anything else to add.

During the debate, we mainly discussed the creation of people, and what we were created from. I gave Quran passages that show contradictions, and my opponent gave his reasoning for them. This debate does not seem to be going any further, so, now it is up to our audience to decide who they felt won this debate.

Thank you to SoA for debating me, it was my first debate with a Muslim, and certainly gave me much understanding and experience.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
So there is no scientific explanation for his creation, only "magic"?
Even more than magic, this is beyond science as science can not conceive its creator ( God)

Quote
Show me one medical site that claims there is a leech stage in fetal development.
Many people can see the resemblance!

Quote
So all translations are flawed? How is it you know the correct information? Do you translate everything by yourself?
translations are not Quran, it is what human try to understand from it, by time and science vague things are cleared

Quote
There is none of this, it is all ambiguous statements that you are trying to twist into your own meaning. Are there any clear messages, or is it all up to interpretation?
Just answer one topic
Mohamed foretold that Islam will grow and will concur 1.Arabia, 1.Egypt, 2.Persia, 3.Cyprus, 4.Bizenta, 5.Rome the 6.all world
1,2,3,4 happened in the same exact order, how did this happen when Mohamed had less than 100 people
Not only that he named specific people who will participate in some of those events and it happened exactly with no error

Offline Servant of Allah

  • Emergency Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Darwins +0/-0
we mainly discussed the creation of people, and what we were created from. I gave Quran passages that show contradictions, and my opponent gave his reasoning for them. This debate does not seem to be going any further, so, now it is up to our audience to decide who they felt won this debate.
You just stated that words can be only used literally
Here is the meaning of the word nothing; they stated 'to describe a particularly unimportant thing' which is exactly what I said and you refused

Offline Narrow Mullen

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • but not Narrow Minded
Alright, I've decided to unquit the debate.

Quote
Even more than magic, this is beyond science as science can not conceive its creator ( God)
Magic is not evidence for anything.

Quote
Many people can see the resemblance!
Appeal to popularity.

Quote
translations are not Quran, it is what human try to understand from it, by time and science vague things are cleared
You could claim the same thing for any holy text. Please give one example of the Quran actually discovering something.

Quote
Mohamed foretold that Islam will grow and will concur 1.Arabia, 1.Egypt, 2.Persia, 3.Cyprus, 4.Bizenta, 5.Rome the 6.all world
1,2,3,4 happened in the same exact order, how did this happen when Mohamed had less than 100 people
Not only that he named specific people who will participate in some of those events and it happened exactly with no error
Can you back this up with Quran statements, as well as the growth of Islam in the countries?

Quote
You just stated that words can be only used literally
Here is the meaning of the word nothing; they stated 'to describe a particularly unimportant thing' which is exactly what I said and you refused
So, we seem to draw two different things from the definition. If something is not clear or understandable, is it not flawed?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"