Would you risk family relationships just to be right?

[screwtape]

... or are you just taking sides for some unseen reason?

For the record, to my knowledge, I do not have any relationship with blue.  As far as I know, he is not my sister. 

[screwtape]

How To Participate In An Advice Thread On An Internet Forum With Your Sister. 
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=21129.0

In case anyone was wondering.

[Operator_A25]

What can I do to resolve the issues in this thread without putting anyone in the ER?

Please explain the problem in such a way that prevents my having to read through seven pages of discussion.

-A25

[screwtape]

Thank you for your help A25.

From my perspective, Star Stuff has failed to address points and done a lot of dodging.  Instead he just pleads innocent or engages in ad hominem/ strawman rebuttals.  His consistent use of hyperbole has been as big a problem as his consistent failure to recognize or acknowledge it when it has been pointed out.  Responses like this one[1] and this lazy, dismissive excuse for a reply[2] to my rather thorough treatment[3] of his points are examples.  Am I correct in thinking these types of problems are normally addressed in the ER? 

Az, do you have anything to add?


BTW, You really should  read the whole thread.  I think you would probably enjoy it.  It is a compelling read and should be a case study.

1.	"my evidence is the thread itself"?  On what planet does that pass as an argument or a valid response to an argument?  Why not just say "my evidence is the universe!"?
2.	"your references are tissue thin and nonsensical" Oh yeah?  Then explain how, Buster.
3.	Crisp. To the point. Laden with evidence for my points.  Scintillating.

[Azdgari]

I will have thoughts to add, at some point soon, but not yet.  I was up 'till 5:30am last night writing a report on the rock cycles of Titan, so I'm fairly brain-dead today, and will be until I get to sleep for more than 3 hours at a time.

[Not on the fence]

I know you were talking about your siblings.  And I realize that they may not be arrogant jerks.  But that's what you made them sound like, at the time, and it makes no sense to denounce someone for drawing that interpretation from what you had said.

As for shutting this thread down:  Indeed, its primary topic is no longer you asking advice.  But if the current discussion is "going nowhere", then shouldn't the mods then put Star Stuff in the ER for stonewalling and refusing to acknowledge points?

What I said "What I mean is because I am the baby of the family, they do not think that I am as smart as they are. Example whenever I bring anything up about how to feed your pets the proper way, not commercial pet food, they just laugh at me. It makes me angry because I have educated myself on this subject so much.  Also mentioning about the scientific findings that are being made is another one.
I am telling you that they are not jerks, just dillusional, and not very educated.  This does not mean they are "jerks".  Im sorry if I explained it in a way that made them sound that way, but I dont appreciate people calling me a spineless coward as one poster put it, or that any of my family are jerks.  I still love them even though yes they are dillusional.

Why should mods put my brother in ER (not sure what that is) but anyhow you guys are the ones that have blown this way out of proportion, and now my thread turned into a war.  Im sorry that you do not have time to watch the video, yet you have time to come here and write these posts?  Are you at work 24/7?
Study about what brethren are like, and the old country kind of upbringing I have had. It is like a cult, you really are brainwashed, but because of our day & age I think we were more open to educate ourselves than our siblings.

[screwtape]

Why should mods put my brother in ER (not sure what that is) but anyhow you guys are the ones that have blown this way out of proportion, and now my thread turned into a war. 

The ER is the Emergency Room.  It is a quarantine area for naughty forum members who cannot cope with some of the rules.  Forum members ask them to address and correct their obnoxious habits.  If they recognize their transgressions and give us cause to believe they have rectified them, we let them back into the forum.  The latest patient in the ER was there to learn how to quote properly.  What Stuff has done far exceeds that.  If he were a theist, he probably would have been in there by page 4.

I do not see this thread as a war.  Wars involve killing your enemies.  I do not see SS as an enemy and I am definitely not trying to kill him.  I see him as a community member gone off his rocker.  I am trying to help him.  I had hoped you would help, but you only seem to be enabling.

Are you at work 24/7?

No.  I just usually have more things to do at home that I would rather spend my time on.

[Not on the fence]

What can I do to resolve the issues in this thread without putting anyone in the ER?

Please explain the problem in such a way that prevents my having to read through seven pages of discussion.

-A25

  Since this is my thread I will ask again if it can be locked, it seems that no one can get along here, and I think that 2 people here are ganging up on SS, they have hurt him by their accusations.
Im not sure who the moderators or Admins are here, for all I know they could be AZ, or Screwtape :shrug
I will add I do find this kind of odd, since I have been reading alot of other posts on this site, for example Servant of Allah's threads, and people there are getting quite personal with bad remarks, now Im not sure why this would be allowed if there are certain rules.
Im hoping that you will consider locking this thread now, its too bad it got off onto a tangent.

[Inactive_1]

The most powerful method available to each member to stop a conversation is the simplest, but for some reason the least used -

Stop posting in the thread.

I don't see an all-out flame war (I've seen plenty in my day and this isn't close to being that). I see tough conversations, and I see parties responding. When I check my unread posts I see this thread popping up every day. So it means that members are still interested in it. If it gets to the point of requiring a lock, you can be sure I will do it, but so far in my opinion it doesn't need to be locked.

Again, if you aren't interested in it any longer, just stop posting in it and stop looking at it.

[Gnu Ordure]

Screwtape/Azd,

I remember that Pinkmilk and DisdainDavid were members of this forum for 6-8 weeks before they revealed that they're a cohabiting couple.

Nobody complained that they were liars for initially concealing this fact. There was no fuss about it whatsoever. And it's easy to imagine why they did it: a desire to establish their identities on the forum as individuals, not as part of a couple.  

Likewise when MrFriday eventually revealed that TimtheSkeptic is his son. And that Dragnet is his brother. People absorbed the information, and life went on.

The fact that StarStuff and NOTF chose to keep the sibling nature of their relationship secret is equally unremarkable. Accusations of dishonesty or lying by omission are unwarranted.

Gnu.

PS Perhaps I should have mentioned this before, but I'm the bastard love-child of Xphobe and Nogodsforme. I'm also Agga's psychiatrist. And Admin_1's secret gay lover. That probably explains a few things.

[Inactive_1]

And Admin_1's secret gay lover. That probably explains a few things.

Now that's a comment that merits locking the thread.[1]

1.	Reminder to myself: take your own advice and stop reading this thread

[Gimpy]

And Admin_1's secret gay lover. That probably explains a few things.

Now that's a comment that merits locking the thread.[1]

1.	Reminder to myself: take your own advice and stop reading this thread

Dad??? Is there something you've not told me?!?

[shnozzola]

Fence,
     At the risk of actually discussing the original post, which branch of the brethren are you from, if I may ask?

[Star Stuff]

I think she's at work tonight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren


http://www.brethrenonline.org/faqs/Brethren.htm

[Azdgari]

The fact that StarStuff and NOTF chose to keep the sibling nature of their relationship secret is equally unremarkable. Accusations of dishonesty or lying by omission are unwarranted.

Are you under the impression that the mere lack of mention of their relationship is the objectionable decision in question?  Context of an action (or decision not to act) matters, Gnu.  Don't you agree?

[Azdgari]

Az, do you have anything to add?

Not really.  I mainly took issue with Star Stuff's misrepresentation of others' points and positions (that sort of thing is a pet peeve of mine).  It is impossible to rationally discuss something with someone when he or she actively lies about your stated position.

[Azdgari]

I am telling you that they are not jerks, just dillusional, and not very educated.  This does not mean they are "jerks".  Im sorry if I explained it in a way that made them sound that way, but I dont appreciate people calling me a spineless coward as one poster put it, or that any of my family are jerks.  I still love them even though yes they are dillusional.

When you describe someone's general behaviour toward you as jerkish, then others can hardly be blamed for interpreting them to be jerks (toward you, anyway).  Also, them being delusional doesn't mean that they're not jerks - if they really do act the way you described, then that's jerkish behaviour, which by definition would make them "jerks".  What would excuse them - and I think what you're trying to say - is be the fact that their jerkish behaviour isn't their fault, but is merely the result of their delusion.  Is that fair?

Why should mods put my brother in ER (not sure what that is) but anyhow you guys are the ones that have blown this way out of proportion, and now my thread turned into a war.  Im sorry that you do not have time to watch the video, yet you have time to come here and write these posts?  Are you at work 24/7?

As Screwtape pointed out, this isn't a war.  It's a discussion, in which one of the participants is too emotionally wired-up about the topic to be able to rationally engage in the discussion.  As for the bolded text above:  What is "it", what were the prior proportions, and what are they now?  Are you able to justify your claim, or are you making an unjustified claim?

Study about what brethren are like, and the old country kind of upbringing I have had. It is like a cult, you really are brainwashed, but because of our day & age I think we were more open to educate ourselves than our siblings.

I know what they're like.  I am familiar with them from my time helping my mother with her kindergarten classes, in which she often had several Closed Brethren children.  Yes, they are cult-like.  Are you bringing this up as being relevant to the topic of the OP, or the topic of your siblings' behaviour?  Because it's certainly relevant to those topics.  Or are you bringing it up as being relevant to how we should conduct ourselves with Star Stuff?  If so, then how is it relevant?

[Azdgari]

Since this is my thread I will ask again if it can be locked, it seems that no one can get along here, and I think that 2 people here are ganging up on SS, they have hurt him by their accusations.

If he is hurt by accusations of intellectual dishonesty, then he should take more care not to engage in intellectually dishonest behaviour (such as intentionally misrepresenting the words of others).  It's a simple cause-effect scenario.

I will add I do find this kind of odd, since I have been reading alot of other posts on this site, for example Servant of Allah's threads, and people there are getting quite personal with bad remarks, now Im not sure why this would be allowed if there are certain rules.

Certainly there is a lot more offensive behaviour on this site than that which Star Stuff did.  But the Mods generally respond to reported posts before unreported posts, with the rationale (as I understand it) being that the reported posts are the ones that bugged someone enough to get reported, while the unreported posts - while possibly worse - don't need attention, because they never bugged anyone enough to get reported.  If people are breaking the forum rules in their conduct toward SoA, then SoA or someone else needs to report them to the Mods - if anyone cares enough.  If not even SoA cares enough to report such behaviour, then why should the Mods bother with it?

[screwtape]

Gnu, I think you are missing the bigger picture. Or at least focusing on a less important point.

Screwtape/Azd,

I remember that Pinkmilk and DisdainDavid were members of this forum for 6-8 weeks before they revealed that they're a cohabiting couple. Nobody complained that they were liars for initially concealing this fact. There was no fuss about it whatsoever. And it's easy to imagine why they did it: a desire to establish their identities on the forum as individuals, not as part of a couple.

They still lied.  It was not a big deal because, as you said, it was understandable.  As I have said numerous times in this thread, not all lies are bad.  But if they were involved in a discussion where that information was relevant, you'd probably have wondered what the deal was and at least wanted an explanation. 

That was what I have been looking for.  Rather than just admit he was not completely up front about it (not a crime) and briefly say why, SS has petulantly denied any deception, which at this point is ridiculous.  He came close when he said it was for "anonymity", but he just could not bring himself to call it what it was.

The fact that StarStuff and NOTF chose to keep the sibling nature of their relationship secret is equally unremarkable. Accusations of dishonesty or lying by omission are unwarranted.

They are warranted because he did in fact lie.  It may be a forgivable lie, but that does not turn a falsehood into truth.  This does not necessarily damn SS nor does it necessarily make him a terrible person.  I am not calling for the Banhammer.  I just asked for an accounting of his act of deception.  In the context of the discussion, this was pertinent information.  I am glad it eventually came out.  When it did, I questioned the motives.  I understand his motives now, despite his stonewalling, probably better than he does.  But he still refuses to own up to it.

The argument surrounding it at this point is about him denying that it even was deception.  That is a problem for someone who considers himself a "rationalist".  At this point he is just clinging to an emotional position and that is causing all manner of intellectual dishonesty and that is the real grievance.

Gnu, there are several problems here.  SS's deception is only one part of it and it is not the largest though it has lead to others.  He has been intellectually dishonest throughout this conversation and that is the bigger offense.  And I do not mean just his denial about not being forthcoming.  I include all the of strawman arguments he stuffed against me.  He has to see that. 

[Gnu Ordure]

Screwtape, StarStuff, Azd,

It pains me to see three people, all of whom I like and respect, get so bogged down in such a heated argument.

So I'd like to help. I've reread the thread, I can see where it goes wrong.  

To start with the conclusion: my considered opinion is that all of you have something to apologize for.

As does L6, who initiated the temperature increase on page 1 by describing all the people he disagreed with as "spineless cowards". That kind of language isn't conducive to reasoned discussion.

StarStuff, I think this where you should have done things differently. I'm speculating that when L6 called your little sister a spineless coward you reacted emotionally to that, because you know it's not true and you understandably went to her defence. We all also need to factor in that L6 had also unknowingly called you a spineless coward.

So that was the moment you should have revealed, because with hindsight, the more you got involved in the discussion while maintaining the pretence, the more it would become inevitable that you reveal it.

Screwtape, Azd. I've already made my position clear regarding the general principle of StarStuff and NOTF concealing their siblinghood. It's normal behaviour, other people do it, it does not reflect badly on them or impugn their integrity.

But that's what you did, Screwtape. You immediately questioned StarStuff's character in the strongest terms. You spoke of him 'betraying the community'. Not in my opinion. If you personally felt hurt and betrayed, that ratchets up the temperature a few more degrees.

So StarStuff reads your accusations, and now he's feeling hurt. He's a proud man, you're insulting him to the core, unfairly, so he replies angrily. The temperature rises again.

You suggest SS should be put in the ER. Another insult.

No need to analyze the rest of it. It just gets hotter. You played a large part in it, Screwtape, by exaggerrating StarStuff's crime in the first place. As NOTF said, you blew it out of proportion, and the thread went rapidly downhill from there.




Azd, I'm not sure to what extent you condemn StarStuff and NOTF for concealing their relationship. Your main accusation of intellectual dishonesty on StarStuff's part seems to rest on what was said after the temperature went through the roof. If this is so, perhaps we could look at the wider picture, the fact that StarStuff is a widely respected longtime member of this forum, and his honesty and integrity are not seriously in question. If you could find a way to acknowledge that, he may acknowledge that he said things in the heat of the moment which might have been better phrased - because he was hurt, and angry.

Screwtape, Azd, one final observation - correct me if I'm wrong, but all the blame for StarStuff and NOTF concealing their relationship fell on to StarStuff.  NOTF didn't get criticized for it at all, even though it was obviously a shared decision. What does that signify to you?  



This whole thing is a storm in a teacup.

If we turn off the heat, and say sorry for our parts in it, we could be friends again.

For my part, I apologize if any of you are offended by this post. Nobody likes being advised to say sorry and shake hands. So ignore me if you want to.

Gnu.

PS Screwtape, just seen your post. It doesn't really change my thoughts about this, so I'll let this post stand as it is.

[Sister Chromatid]

You've offended me, gnu, because you never mentioned our relationship.  *sniff*

[Gnu Ordure]

Hey. Come on, Sister, don't cry.

We'll always have the JREF forum. We didn't have, we... we lost it until you came to WWGHA. We got it back last night. I know you said you'd never leave me, and you never will.

But I've got a job to do, too. Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

Sis, I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people on an internet forum don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.

Someday you'll understand that.

Now, now... Here's looking at you kid.

[Gnu Ordure]

Hi Azd, StarStuff, Screwtape.

Here's another unsolicited observation, free of charge.

This thread is an interesting example of what psychotherapists call 'parallel process'. The primary purpose of the thread was to discuss whether NOTF should reveal her atheism to her parents in the real world. Within the thread, the actual focus became StarStuff revealing his relationship with NOTF to the Forum. The same issue, in other words, but being enacted here and now, on a different level.

So StarStuff, observing what actually happened in this thread supports one of Screwtape's points. He's advised you and your sister to at least make detailed preparations for telling your parents, so that if the news comes out, the damage is minimized. On this thread, you weren't fully prepared for telling us your secret, and the s**t hit the fan.  

On the other hand, Screwtape, what happened here supports one of StarStuff's points. This thread became focused on the relatively trivial issue of StarStuff coming out about his siblinghood, but it's generating genuine distress and hurt, and still threatens to destroy your friendships. The destruction of a family would be far more painful.

I anticipate your response that StarStuff's reveal on this thread was badly handled, and that a reveal to his parents could be handled better. Agreed. But it appears to be the opinion of StarStuff and NOTF that no matter how well they presented it, the results would not be positive. It simply wouldn't be worth the pain it would cause. And it's their call.

Screwtape, we've discussed this whole issue before, and if I remember correctly, we're basically agreed on it: generally speaking, honesty is the best policy, but each case must be judged on its merits. And the best judge of each case is the person concerned.

If you still agree with that, then let this go. I understand you don't like some of what StarStuff said, but it was hot in there. Forgive and forget.

And then leave StarStuff and NOTF to absorb the advice and feedback they're received on this thread. They may come round to your way of thinking, Screwtape, or they may not. But it's up to them to decide what to do.

Gnu.

[Not on the fence]

Gnu...thank you for your observations, and for trying to help us all out here, your understanding is very much appreciated.
I will edit though that it was my no intention to tell my parents about my "lack of belief", but it was rather about my older siblings, just so that is clarified. That thought never came to my mind about telling my parents.
Anyhow I think that this thread is tired now, but if anyone still wants to post about the opening thread, feel free, but I will not be partcicipating in arguements with people.
Thanks

[Azdgari]

Azd, I'm not sure to what extent you condemn StarStuff and NOTF for concealing their relationship.

Concealing a relationship is fine, in itself.  Concealing that relationship when its bias is relevant to what one is saying is not.  That's why Star Stuff got flak for that, and NotF didn't.  This has already been explained in the thread, most recently in Screwtape's last post.  Are you reading those posts?

Your main accusation of intellectual dishonesty on StarStuff's part seems to rest on what was said after the temperature went through the roof.

That is correct.

If this is so, perhaps we could look at the wider picture, the fact that StarStuff is a widely respected longtime member of this forum, and his honesty and integrity are not seriously in question. If you could find a way to acknowledge that, he may acknowledge that he said things in the heat of the moment which might have been better phrased - because he was hurt, and angry.

Of course I acknowledge that he is a longtime, respected member of the forum.  And if Star Stuff had merely engaged in misrepresentations and hyperbole, then I would not be calling into question his broader intellectual honesty.  But he has refused so far to admit any fault whatsoever - continued dishonesty, even after it has been brought up.  If he has to be coddled in order to be able to conduct himself honestly, then that reveals a significant problem that should not be simply hand-waved away in the spirit of universal harmony.

[Azdgari]

Concealing a relationship is fine, in itself.  Concealing that relationship when its bias is relevant to what one is saying is not.

Sigh. This will be the final time I will try to have you understand this.  I would have said ALL of the things I said in the earlier parts of this thread (about coming out to frail, uneducated, elderly parents) even if I didn't know NOTF. Her relationship to me had absolutely no bearing on my replies. I was not defending her in any way. I cannot change the fact that she is my sister, and I made my comments from my own viewpoint and situation.

The issue as I saw it, was that your relationship to her is part of what made you blow up in the thread.  Not having known about it at the time, your blow-up seemed sort of inexplicable.  That's the bias I'm talking about here.  That said, I havn't really focused on this part since I find it to be trivial compared to the misrepresentations and hyperbole, and the lies told about them.

Of course I acknowledge that he is a longtime, respected member of the forum.  And if Star Stuff had merely engaged in misrepresentations and hyperbole, then I would not be calling into question his broader intellectual honesty.  But he has refused so far to admit any fault whatsoever - continued dishonesty, even after it has been brought up.

Yes, it has been brought up and asserted, but not established. You cannot do that, for I know that was not intellectually dishonest or guilty of anything, (except getting angry from the later false accusations).

Except, of course, for the direct examples of misrepresentation brought up by Screwtape repeatedly in the thread, which you have still not addressed.  That's a big issue.

[DisdainDavid]

I remember that Pinkmilk and DisdainDavid were members of this forum for 6-8 weeks before they revealed that they're a cohabiting couple.

Nobody complained that they were liars for initially concealing this fact. There was no fuss about it whatsoever. And it's easy to imagine why they did it: a desire to establish their identities on the forum as individuals, not as part of a couple.  

Just wanted to point out that we made no attempt to 'conceal' our relationship, it was just simply never relevant to any conversations we had (at least ones that I had), and when it became relevant I pointed it out.  Also, hello everyone.

[Star Stuff]

Just wanted to point out that we made no attempt to 'conceal' our relationship, it was just simply never relevant to any conversations we had (at least ones that I had), and when it became relevant I pointed it out.

Precisely. And were you crucified like me?  Did you have any damning posts instantly deleted like I've had done this morning without notification?

[One Above All]

Azdgari, are you Moderator 25?