Would you risk family relationships just to be right?

[Star Stuff]

Have you ever met Glenn Beck?

Wow, that fails.  Have NotF's parents regularly been on television expressing their views?

[Not on the fence]

I am living my life, I do not lie to my parents, I just choose not to tell them my beliefs now.  Trust me if you knew my parents then you may understand.  They do not have the ability to understand whatsoever.
They are not "jerks" as you put it, just simple uneducated, and old.  They have had alot of grief in their lives they dont need me to put another nail in their coffins right now.

*Peace

[Not on the fence]

On-topic, and lost in the depths of the thread:

NOTF:  What, in total, do you want out of your relationship with your family?

  Sorry missed this one......
I want peace and harmony, no fighting ( probably because Im a Libra lol!)
though I also want respect from some of my siblings.
After thinking about this for a while Im sure that I would not gain anymore respect if I did tell them, but I still love them.

[GotMooo]

I see a conflict between the individual and the other party.  What is good for the individual may not always be best for the other party and vice versa.  I think that it is disrespectful to lie or mislead people.  However I also think that sometimes, particularly under serious circumstances, being truthful isn't the best course of action, sad to say.  But under most circumstances, I think the most respectful thing to do is to be honest with others and tell them how you really feel, even if it brings some negative responses.  I respect people more who tell me what they really think and how they really feel rather than trying to please me by being dishonest with themselves[1].  But respect means different things for different people so I'm not saying this applies to everyone.

For old or terminally ill people, I would most likely avoid religious topics and discussing my views.  I feel sometimes the individual has to sacrifice some of their own qualities (honesty) for the interest of people who are more vulnerable and need some stability and emotional support.

For me, respect is earned through experience, not from a biological basis.  I don't think two people having sex and reproducing means one should respect them.  However, two people who are responsible and raise the child I think have earned respect.  Courtesy is granted, respect is earned.

1.	Hmm, this sounds familiar.

[L6]

Well put, L6.  Do I have your permission to copy this and use it elsewhere?  My university's atheist club could use something this well-worded.

By all means, everything I say is public domain, always.

[L6]

You and L6 think that it's for the best if a relationship bursts when one guy's parents are shattered because they can't accept their child is not what they thought. 

Show me where I said that. You and Star Stuff are just emotionally riled up because I've reminded you of your own cowardice and dishonest rationalizations. I said "initiate this conflict", but I didn't give instructions. It is up to each individual to decide how and when to do that, once they've made that decision. I don't know anyone else or their family well enough to ever give them any specific advice. "Strife" is probably a better word than "conflict", but a conflict it will be, however minor. If not between individuals, then within them.

[Star Stuff]

You and Star Stuff are just emotionally riled up because I've reminded you of your own cowardice and dishonest rationalizations.

Alright. Here we go:

I am not emotionally riled up. I just happened to be more in tune with the reality of the situation.  How is that so?  Well, it just so happens that Not on the Fence is my younger sister.  Yes, that's right, her parents are my parents, so I am intimate with her concerns, the makeup of her parents, and the ramifications to these two 84 year-old people.

But even if I didn't know her, I would not be doling out the arrogant arm-chair "expert" advice that you so easily and callously dish out, knowing diddly squat about the people involved.  What does it cost you to suggest dropping a bomb in people's lives?  Nothing.

Again, it would indeed be different if her parents were younger and/or educated and well-rounded enough to converse about their life-long held certainties, but as explained, they do not possess these attributes.  They came from the U.K. in the late 50's with not a high-school education between them. But they worked very hard, and provided us a home.  It is sad that they raised us with a false map of the world (christianity), but that can only be seen in retrospect, and I don't harbour any anger towards them in that regard, as they did the best with the tools they had.

As I've expressed in this forum numerous times, I abandoned the religious beliefs that I was raised with about 23 years ago, and it has only been recently that my younger sister (6yrs my junior) has begun to really think about these things, and I think that that is due to me really telling her what I think & feel, about a year ago, and introducing her to this site, and other material.  I'll let her speak for herself as she has had her own journey, but she seems to have escaped the tyranny that we were raised with as well - which is a whole other set of videos!  You have no idea.  I personally feel like an escapee from Auschwitz, as not many get out of the mental straight-jacket that we were donned with.

So please, lose your self-inflated and egotistical idea that you have "reminded me of my cowardice and dishonest rationalizations", and give us a pat on the back for our own "great escape".  It wasn't easy.






Thanks for listening.

[Tykster]

bm

[Noman Peopled]

On "the living a lie" thing:

If you know that your parents would want to know something about you, and you don't tell them, it's lying by omission. It's a question of relevance. If you withheld information about your dietary habits from me, who cares. If you withheld them from a doctor trying to figure out what's wrong with your digestive system, you're lying by omission.

That's not to say it's the wrong thing to do. As stated, It's Not All That Simple (TM).
Personally, I would feel that withholding information from my parents that they would find relevant is disrespectful. It's just as patronizing as them ignoring my opinions on politics or pet food because hey, what does the young whippersnapper know.
Of course, this is not any kind of absolute either. Perhaps my patronizing them is deserved. (Say, they do need that protection.)



On the "they gave birth to me and raised me" thing:
My parents gave birth to me and raised me for reasons of their own. I had no choice but to build a relationship with them. Of course, this relationship is nothing to throw away lightly, no matter if I had a say in it's beginning or not. This relationships is, if anything, the factor that makes me owe something to my parents. (Although I'd insist that a relationship be built on strictly voluntary contributions.)
But the fact that I like my parents or that they paid for a whole bunch of stuff for me over the years should not oblige me to be anything, and neither should I need to pretend. I don't even require respect from my parents, just tolerance, and if I don't get that, I'll draw a line. Perhaps I'll just avoid meaningful discussions, perhaps I'll avoid my parents altogether.

But birth? Birth has nothing to do with anything imo. They took a chance. I could have become a mass murderer or a priest. My mother could've died in childbirth, or suffered from postnatal depression. Their adopted kid could've been hit with a baseball at age three, making him a vegetable.
It's not my obligation to be how my parents pictured me (including behavior, such as stating a dissenting opinion), just as I should be neither angry nor suprised when my kids want to be football players rather than the scientists I envisioned them as.

[Star Stuff]

If you know that your parents would want to know something about you, and you don't tell them, it's lying by omission.

I can assure you that they wouldn't really want to know where I/we stand.  They might be curious as to why we don't go to church, sure, and because of that might even inquire occasionally in order to get me/us back into church attendance (to them, that is paramount) but they really don't want to hear that I/we think their entire belief system about reality and eternal life or hell after death is completely delusional.  Trust me.

[screwtape]

They are not "jerks" as you put it, just simple uneducated, and old. 

I thought we were talking about your sibs at that point:

What I mean is because I am the baby of the family, they do not think that I am as smart as they are. Example whenever I bring anything up about how to feed your pets the proper way, not commercial pet food, they just laugh at me. It makes me angry because I have educated myself on this subject so much.  Also mentioning about the scientific findings that are being made is another one.

So I was referring to the sibs, not your parental units.  And if they sound like arrogant jerks to me, it is because you have made them sound that way. 

[Star Stuff]

Our siblings (one bro & one sis) are about 10 years older than I (16 yrs older than NotF).  They too were raised with what to think, not how to think, but are so far gone it's hard to explain. Only a ten year difference, but it put them growing up in a different era (50s~60s) and were even more sheltered from the real world than me & NotF.  They just don't seem to have the capacity for critical thought when it comes to their religious beliefs/faith.  When our parents pass on, I won't have any reservations voicing my thoughts on christianity to them.  Until then, consideration for our parents is more important.

Cheers.

[Not on the fence]

So I was referring to the sibs, not your parental units.  And if they sound like arrogant jerks to me, it is because you have made them sound that way. 

  Did not mean to make it sound like they are jerks, but they are in the same boat as my parents, just uneducated, and have the same dillusions. :shrug

[screwtape]

Alright. Here we go:

I am not emotionally riled up. I just happened to be more in tune with the reality of the situation.  How is that so?  Well, it just so happens that Not on the Fence is my younger sister.  Yes, that's right, her parents are my parents, so I am intimate with her concerns, the makeup of her parents, and the ramifications to these two 84 year-old people.

Oh, the drama.   

I am not enchanted by this omission.  It reflects poorly on you.  It calls into question your whole purpose in this conversation.  Would it be a safe assumption that NotF already knows your postion on the matter?  If so, why bother arguing with me (or L6 or anyone else)?  She asked for advice and got it.  Why are you spending so much energy trying to prove us wrong? 

And while you might not think you are riled up, you are certainly emotionally invested.  You might be too close to accurately judge.  I am not saying you are wrong.  Just maybe you should argue less and reflect a little bit more?

But even if I didn't know her, I would not be doling out the arrogant arm-chair "expert" advice that you so easily and callously dish out, knowing diddly squat about the people involved.  What does it cost you to suggest dropping a bomb in people's lives?  Nothing.

Are you sure you aren't riled up? 

It's a crapshoot when you ask people what they think.  Some ideas will be useful, some will not.  Some ideas you will like, others, not so much.  It is not as if we sought her out and forced our opinions down her throat.  She came here and asked us.  But according to you, the only advice anyone is allowed to give is the advice you deem acceptable, the advice you want to hear?  Sorry.  That is not how it works.

If you don't want "arrogant arm-chair expert" advice, then don't ask the question of amateurs in the first place.  If you want professional advice, spend the money and go to a shrink.  You have no grounds for complaint. 

[Star Stuff]

I am not enchanted by this omission.

Rats!  I am always trying to enchant you.  Sorry about that.

It reflects poorly on you.

Ha-ha-ha-ha. You kill me. How does this reflect poorly on me oh mighty one?  Were you a dictator in another life?

It calls into question your whole purpose in this conversation.

Calls into question?!?  Who the heck do you think you are?  My purpose was clear from the get-go.

Would it be a safe assumption that NotF already knows your postion on the matter?

Whether safe or dangerous, it's an assumption, and we all know where that leads.  Even if she did "know my position", it matters not; it's a public forum and an open conversation which others may benefit from (it's not all about you).

If so, why bother arguing with me (or L6 or anyone else)?  She asked for advice and got it.

Why should I be excluded from the thread?  You're not making any sense.

Why are you spending so much energy trying to prove us wrong?

Geesh, you sound like a creationist.  It's a discussion, and I have my opinions.  It's a forum.

And while you might not think you are riled up, you are certainly emotionally invested.  You might be too close to accurately judge.

Or, I might be close enough to know better.

I am not saying you are wrong.  Just maybe you should argue less and reflect a little bit more?

Why do you call it arguing?  It's a discussion on a forum. What do you expect?  How do you know how much I reflected?

Are you sure you aren't riled up?  

Yes; thanks for asking.

It's a crapshoot when you ask people what they think.  Some ideas will be useful, some will not.  Some ideas you will like, others, not so much.  It is not as if we sought her out and forced our opinions down her throat.  She came here and asked us.

Right. But are you suggesting that your comments are off limits?  If so, just let me know and I'll happily leave 'em alone.

But according to you, the only advice anyone is allowed to give is the advice you deem acceptable

No, that's according to you.  Your words.

If you don't want "arrogant arm-chair expert" advice, then don't ask the question of amateurs in the first place.

I never said I didn't want to hear it, it's a free exchange of ideas & opinions, and I have mine.

If you want professional advice, spend the money and go to a shrink.  You have no grounds for complaint.  

And you think I'm riled up?  Mirror!

[Azdgari]

Star Stuff, do you think that NOTF should have made this thread?  After all, she already has - according to you - the best source of advice she could get on the topic[1].  Wouldn't other, conflicting sources of advice only endanger that ideal source of advice?

1.	Ie. you, according to you.  In evidence of this position I refer to your assertions that your closeness to the situation gives you insight that is available to nobody else in this thread

[Star Stuff]

Nothing wrong with fleshing things out and hearing others' opinions.  Sounding boards are a good thing, but I think you'd agree that threads on this forum invite discussion between posters, no?

[screwtape]

Rats!  I am always trying to enchant you.  Sorry about that.

You should stop trying to be clever.  It does not come off well.  It betrays a prejudice going into the conversation. It tells me you are not open minded and makes me think my efforts to talk to you are going to be a waste of my time.  It suggests you have no respect.  It is like when some fundie comes in and starts ridiculing science for constantly changing.  You just know the conversation is hopeless. I hope that is not the case now.

Let me make my original point another way.  You lying about your relationship makes me question your integrity.  It is not that we simply have a difference of opinion.  You have been deceptive.  What was the point of your deception?  You should be able to understand and address my point and my apprehensions as a member of the community.

It reflects poorly on you.

Ha-ha-ha-ha. You kill me. How does this reflect poorly on me oh mighty one?  Were you a dictator in another life?

If you are saying you don't care what the people in this internet community think of you, then you miss the point of what a community means.  You have not dealt openly and honestly.  That is a betrayal of sorts, within the community.  But for what reason?  You have not answered that.  If you think that it is a requirement that I have some "mighty" status to expect this simple respect, then you have a problem.

Calls into question?!?  Who the heck do you think you are?  My purpose was clear from the get-go.

Who do you think you are?  You think you can deal dishonestly and not be called on it?  You think that the anonymity of the internet means there are no standards of interpersonal conduct?

You purpose was not clear and it still is not.  You little sister solicited opinions.  Presumably if she wanted yours, she could have called, emailed or talked face to face, whatever your situation may be.  Your input was redundant, unnecessary.  So what was the point of broadcasting it?   

Whether safe or dangerous, it's an assumption, and we all know where that leads.  

Cutesy answers get us nowhere. That was a question to you, and phrased as such.  You did not answer, but instead gave a dodge. 

Even if she did "know my position", it matters not; it's a public forum and an open conversation which others may benefit from (it's not all about you).

Who benefit from your responses?  They were directly related to your sister's situation and were hardly universally applicable.  And that is a bit presumptuous to think your input was beneficial.  Characterizing my position as advocating drubbing the elderly benefited no one.

If so, why bother arguing with me (or L6 or anyone else)?  She asked for advice and got it.

Why should I be excluded from the thread?  You're not making any sense.

Dodge.  Asserting I make no sense is just a distraction.  I did not say you should be excluded.  Answer the question.  Why argue with me or L6 or anyone else? 

Why are you spending so much energy trying to prove us wrong?

Geesh, you sound like a creationist.

Dodge.

Or, I might be close enough to know better.

You might.  Or you might be so riled up that you cannot see things clearly.

Why do you call it arguing?  It's a discussion on a forum. What do you expect?  

I call it arguing because that is what it is. In a normal "discussion" people do not use such hyperbole as to mischaracterize the other person as you have done.  You normally see that type of dirty pool in arguments, particularly arguments that are highly emotionally charged.  The kind where people lose perspective.

In your case, arguing in the forum is completely unnecessary, since you have an inside track. So, I ask again, why spend the effort and energy on showing how I am wrong?

Are you sure you aren't riled up?  

Yes; thanks for asking.

That was rhetorical.  I think it is pretty clear you are bothered by my position.

Right. But are you suggesting that your comments are off limits?  If so, just let me know and I'll happily leave 'em alone.

No.  I am saying given your position your responses are completely unnecessary.  Your participation in this thread is completely unnecessary.  So why are you participating?

But according to you, the only advice anyone is allowed to give is the advice you deem acceptable

No, that's according to you.  Your words.

Kindly, quote my words.  You are making a habit of attributing positions to me that I do not actually hold. Then, when I ask for references, you produce none.  That is disrespectful and fallacious.

If you don't want "arrogant arm-chair expert" advice, then don't ask the question of amateurs in the first place.

I never said I didn't want to hear it, it's a free exchange of ideas & opinions, and I have mine.

But to characterize it as you have is to be dismissive of it, which is to say you don't want to hear it.  What is the point of hearing other opinions if you are so derisive toward them?  And if we know "diddly squat" - a condition for which you and your sister are entirely responsible - why would you even bother asking the question without giving enough information?   Why would you be so surprised by the low quality[1] responses?

1.	in your opinion

[Not on the fence]

Ok  lets all calm down a bit here.  I want to thank everyone for all your input here in this thread. I will say that all have had some help, and yes my brothers comments have helped me aswell.  I was not sure exactly if he would respond in the thread I made, I also was not sure on how he felt about me sharing how I believe now with my other siblings.    I just wanted to get opinions from a vast amount of people as I know that there are alot of former theists in  this forum that may have some good input.

[Star Stuff]

So as to not to derail this thread any further, I will reply to screwtape by PM when I get a chance.

In a nutshell, though, I find the accusation of "deception" to be completely false and highly offensive.  I maintained anonimity with my sister for the short time she's been on here for no other reason than anonimity sake. There was absolutely no such intent (or evidence) of deception, that is not my style, I merely eventually felt forced to really spell out my reasoning for why I felt that one should not "come out" to elderly, simple minded parents, and I would have said all the things I did say even if I did not know NOTF, because it still would have been based on my experience.

I like this place too much and respect too many of you all to even entertain the idea of a deceptive act.  Wouldn't dream of it.

Cheers.

[Azdgari]

Star Stuff and Not On The Fence, I am curious about something:  How many non-parental Christians know who you are and that you are atheists?

If you are unwilling to let your parents know that you are atheists, and if your parents engage in any kind of social life, then there is a risk if you out yourselves to anyone, that word might get back to them.  So, does that keep you both closeted in the other non-anonymous parts of your lives?

[Jim]

You and L6 think that it's for the best if a relationship bursts when one guy's parents are shattered because they can't accept their child is not what they thought. 

Show me where I said that. ... I said "initiate this conflict", but I didn't give instructions. It is up to each individual to decide how and when to do that, once they've made that decision. I don't know anyone else or their family well enough to ever give them any specific advice. "Strife" is probably a better word than "conflict", but a conflict it will be, however minor. If not between individuals, then within them.

Why the need for conflict and strife?  Why the assumption that it will be minor?  This is not in my experience that I can expect such things to be minor.

When people realize that their views can hurt their family members, particularly their children, their behavior is more likely to change.

Not necessarily.  Big assumption.

You don't need to fight or debate your family; it's as simple as saying you don't believe. Most people avoid conflict and will probably leave it alone after that. It's their knowing at all--and that you are a good person, to boot--that is important.

You say this, apparently with the assumption that open discussion always leads to enlightened decisions and reactions.  Not always so.  Sometimes a relationship with family hinges on more than just religion, but the strife or conflict that you urge, above, is enough to fuck things up for good.  The conflict that starts with one thing can set other aspects of the relationship on fire.

Like I've said in posts in this forum and at ATT: I told my loved ones what I think about religion and God.  With some, it has been beneficial, with others, not so.  It is very, very unfortunate that some relationships hit the rocks.  Despite what you say -- there were other values to those relationships beyond religion, and I do not feel that it was for the better because they could not reconcile with what I felt.

As for atheism gaining ground, politically -- you and everyone else here can help with that, with or without family's help or knowledge.  To imply or state in a coercive manner that you must tell your family, "come hell or high water", in order to be a good atheist is rather indoctrinating of you, L6.  First, you must submit.  slm

I will continue to keep my own counsel about this kind of matter.  I do not "live a lie."  But, then again, I have no need to discuss or denounce religion.  Most people I meet in life just don't rank getting into that personal space.  I know far better about what is required in my life than you ever will. 

The shame you attempt to invoke by slinging around "cowardice", and similar remarks, merely exposes your need to bully others into feeling the same way you do.  My advice to others is to use extreme judgement, do not rush, and certainly do not listen to those, like you, who would demean them with cries of "spinelessness" -- you may as well be telling them to not think through what they should do.

You and Star Stuff are just emotionally riled up because I've reminded you of your own cowardice and dishonest rationalizations.

I won't speak for Star Stuff.  For my part, I have noticed your feather primping and strutting.  Very nice: pretty plumage.

[Star Stuff]

Star Stuff and Not On The Fence, I am curious about something:  How many non-parental Christians know who you are and that you are atheists?

If you are unwilling to let your parents know that you are atheists, and if your parents engage in any kind of social life, then there is a risk if you out yourselves to anyone, that word might get back to them.  So, does that keep you both closeted in the other non-anonymous parts of your lives?

Good, thoughtful question.  As you can imagine, ones social group can be quite diverse.  Of those people that I know who would be in contact with my parents (there aren't many)  that really know my thoughts on this, have been advised to kindly keep it to themselves for the consideration reasons I've already mentioned.  Most of my peer group don't have contact with my parents.

My parents are obviously aware of the fact that I haven't attended church in 23 years, and they'd love nothing better than to see me there, as in their minds, attendance is very important.  I remember my parents bringing it up a few years ago but I didn't allow the conversation to get off the ground.  I think I said something to the effect that I'd prefer to just not talk about it, and changed the subject.

There is a part of me that would LOVE (in conversation with them) to dismantle all of the false beliefs which they hold; heck, I have visions of giving a 45 minute fully prepared, devastating sermon at my old church! - heh heh; but again, it is purley and solely out of consideration for them that I don't get into this with them.  There would be tears, loss of sleep, and enormous termoil on their part if I did, and I suggest that nobody at that age deserves that from their kids.

[Not on the fence]

Star Stuff and Not On The Fence, I am curious about something:  How many non-parental Christians know who you are and that you are atheists?

If you are unwilling to let your parents know that you are atheists, and if your parents engage in any kind of social life, then there is a risk if you out yourselves to anyone, that word might get back to them.  So, does that keep you both closeted in the other non-anonymous parts of your lives?

My parents do not have too much of a social life now, and they do not really know any of my friends that know my beliefs.

[jetson]

I would love to have a relationshop with my father, but he doesn't respect me.  It hurts sometimes when I think about it, but I can no longer pretend that the relationship is good.  I have occasional conversations, but overall, there's nothing substantial between us.  I'm his only son.

All because of religion? That's really sad, Jetson.

No - my atheism is a small and recent thing to him.  He is just so wrapped up in himself and self-righteous.  He has alienated all of his four children.

I have to agree with kindred to some degree.  We naturally tend to love our family members, but is there a reason why that love must be dogmatic?  Even to the point where we can be treated like shit and we still are required to love them?  No thanks!

Which brings up a point regarding siblings.  We are literally stuck with each other for usually around 15 to 18 years!  As children, we have no way of getting away from our siblings.  This can be very unhealthy sometimes!

[screwtape]

So as to not to derail this thread any further, I will reply to screwtape by PM when I get a chance.

PMs are not welcome. That is not a specific grudge against you.  It is my general policy.  If we have a misunderstanding/ problem/ whatever, I would much prefer to iron it out in the light of day.  I have found PMs can exacerbate any problems there are.  And if things really go south and someone takes the private conversation public[1], it becomes a he said/ he said deal that is a mess.  It was a pain in the ass when Poseidon/ Nihilnath PM'd me and then lied in the public forum about what was said.

In a nutshell, though, I find the accusation of "deception" to be completely false and highly offensive. 

My intention is not to offend you.  My intention is to find out why you entered this conversation at least omitting the very relevant fact that you two are siblings.  I feel that you were arguing from behind a curtain with ulterior motives and I did not like that.  I also did not like the straw man arguments, the hyperbole and the mischaracterizations.  All these go toward the greater point of respect, which you seem to lack for no better reason than we disagree.

I maintained anonimity with my sister for the short time she's been on here for no other reason than anonimity sake.

If you feel there was some personal information you were guarding, I can respect that.  I try to guard my personal details carefully.  But to be anonymous just for the sake of it does not make sense to me. Omitting that you and NotF are siblings does not make sense to me, unless there is some ulterior motive.

There was absolutely no such intent (or evidence) of deception, .

Of course there is evidence and intent.  You just said it above.  You did not elaborate on your relationship for "anonymity sake".  In other words, you kept it secret and it was not an accident.  Deception and intent.  I think what you mean to say is you did not do it with malicious intent. 

1.	as angry people are wont to do

[Star Stuff]

I'm sorry screwtape, I'm spending any more energy on the assumptions and conclusions that you have created in your mind and refuse to let go of.  I'll say it one more time:

I would have said all the things I did say even if I did not know NOTF, because it still would have been based on my experience.

[Not on the fence]

If you don't want "arrogant arm-chair expert" advice, then don't ask the question of amateurs in the first place.  If you want professional advice, spend the money and go to a shrink.  You have no grounds for complaint. 

  This is a forum to ask questions, discuss, and debate, is it not?

[Sister Chromatid]

I think it's fine to make beliefs (and non-belief) off topic for discussion.  

If people keep their beliefs to themselves and don't expect my deference, I'm glad to treat them as rationalists unless or until it becomes obvious they are not.

I wouldn't express my lack of belief to a parent who would worry that their beloved child was going to hell so long as that parent didn't make statements with the assumption that I agreed with their beliefs.  Some believers (including my siblings) have a weird tendency to state their beliefs as facts that everyone agrees with.  In those cases, I speak up.