Would you risk family relationships just to be right?

[Star Stuff]

screwtape;  here's a good example of you twisting things to suit your needs:

You said:

I am all for using tact and making the announcement quietly and without confrontation.  She doesn't have to stick her thumb in their eye.  But whatever the approach, we have to be honest with ourselves and our families.

to which you then said that I replied:

- Your one-size-fits-all, carpet bombing approach lacks wisdom, sensitivity and compassion.


- It is insensitive to throw a gernade into an elderly person's world...  Would you also drub your non-belief into a cancer victim on their death-bed?


- You just seem to want to throw your gernades in a pell-mell fashion.



Here now, your twisting will be revealed.




To your comment above, I did not even reply!!   I replied to this comment of yours:

"If nobody puts a face on the lable, they will never see us as people."

to which I said:

But you are failing to put a face on the elderly parents in "Not on the Fence's" parents.  They are people with feelings, and are in the last few years of their life.  Your one-size-fits-all, carpet bombing approach lacks wisdom, sensitivity and compassion.



...an answer I stand by.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Next:

My reply:  It is insensitive to throw a gernade into an elderly person's world...  Would you also drub your non-belief into a cancer victim on their death-bed?

Was a reply to this completely different statement you made:    "Why is being honest about who she is insensitive?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Next:  My reply:  "You just seem to want to throw your gernades in a pell-mell fashion"

was in reply to this other dialogue:


Me: But you are failing to put a face on the elderly parents in "Not on the Fence's" parents.  

You:  "They are not my problem."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for the opportunity to display to everyone reading this just how good you are at twisting things and taking them out of context.


added:  I stand by everything I've said in this thread.  I would have said them exactly as stated even if I didn't know NOTF.

[screwtape]

but maybe they want to be anonymous?

In what way does acknowledging (not necessarily reporting) your relationship divulge their identity? 

Yes I did respond to the "mischaracterizations" and I told you I do not see
 it, I do see however some harsh, and to the point words from both parties, which I am not accustomed too on forums.

I'm starting to see things from your siblings' point of view.

[Not on the fence]

Right now, I cannot.  That site is blocked.  Is it the Star Stuff family picnic?  Is he wearing a "Kiss the Closet Atheist" apron?

Not sure why this site would be blocked to you? unless of course its because you are underage, or in jail?
Please explain??  Nice comeback

[Not on the fence]

but maybe they want to be anonymous?

In what way does acknowledging (not necessarily reporting) your relationship divulge their identity? 

  Ya never know one of my theists relatives, or friends could visit this site and put two and two together? who knows? but maybe some people want to write what they want in complete privacy. Hope this makes sense, my cat is meowing very loudly so it is distracting me.

[Not on the fence]

I'm starting to see things from your siblings' point of view.

  Not sure what you mean by that?

[screwtape]

okay, stuff, let's go your way.

"If nobody puts a face on the lable, they will never see us as people."

to which I said:

But you are failing to put a face on the elderly parents in "Not on the Fence's" parents.  They are people with feelings, and are in the last few years of their life.  Your one-size-fits-all, carpet bombing approach lacks wisdom, sensitivity and compassion.

Where is that carpet bombing approach I advocate?  It's still not there.  That point in blue you responded to came right after the part where I pretty clearly stated my position as having tact and compassion.  My statement in blue does not in any way contradict that position and it does not prescribe an approach other than honesty.  So you want to claim "Context!" for yourself, but you have no qualms taking me out of context? 


Here is the link to that post of mine.


I even corrected you.  Here is the quote:

Your one-size-fits-all, carpet bombing approach lacks wisdom, sensitivity and compassion.

malarkey.  It is not a carpet bombing strategy. See:

I am all for using tact and making the announcement quietly and without confrontation.  She doesn't have to stick her thumb in their eye. 

but you continued with the bullshit rhetoric.

My reply:  It is insensitive to throw a gernade into an elderly person's world...  Would you also drub your non-belief into a cancer victim on their death-bed?

Was a reply to this completely different statement you made:    "Why is being honest about who she is insensitive?"

This does not justify your response.  You still do not get to "drubbings" and "grenades" from "being honest about who she is".  At no point did I mention any specific tactic.  At no point did I advocate a harsh approach. Your responses were not to anything I had said.  That has been the point all along.  Grenades and drubbings were interpretations you made in light of your emotional state - fear for your parents.

Next:  My reply:  "You just seem to want to throw your gernades in a pell-mell fashion"

was in reply to this other dialogue:


Me: But you are failing to put a face on the elderly parents in "Not on the Fence's" parents.  

You:  "They are not my problem."

Again, you took the blue part out of context.  Lets replay the tape...

But you are failing to put a face on the elderly parents in "Not on the Fence's" parents. 

They are not my problem.  They did not come here because they were in a predicament.  NotF did.  I am giving her the best advice I can give to her.  I am not disregarding her parents, but she is the focus.   She comes first.  And they, as xians, as the overwhelming majority in this country, already have a face.

bold mine now.
I don't know how you get from there to grenades and pell-mell.  You've still not shown that.  As for the pell-mell, my post immediately before that:

My advice is to prepare yourself.  Don't wait for them to come to you.  It is better that it be done in a controlled way at a time of your chosing.  The alternative is to continue this bizarre denial.  Then, one day when you least expect it, like thanksgiving or at cousin Jenny's baby's christening, all hell will break loose.  There will be hurt feelings, shouting, red faces and crying.  It will be epic.  I have been right about this before. 

bold mine now.

Thank you for the opportunity to display to everyone reading this just how good you are at twisting things and taking them out of context.

I'm sorry this didn't work out the way you planned. All you've shown here is that your replies were even more disconnected from my posts and more connected to your emotions.
 

added:  I stand by everything I've said in this thread.  

to your shame.

[Star Stuff]

Just go read the thread folks.  It's all there.

Put the shovel down screwtape; just walk away from the shovel.

[screwtape]

Right now, I cannot.  That site is blocked.  Is it the Star Stuff family picnic?  Is he wearing a "Kiss the Closet Atheist" apron?

Not sure why this site would be blocked to you? unless of course its because you are underage, or in jail?
Please explain?? 

My work firewall blocks it.  They don't want people wasting time on the internet.

Nice comeback &)

Yes.  I am quite hilarious.

Ya never know one of my theists relatives, or friends could visit this site and put two and two together? who knows? but maybe some people want to write what they want in complete privacy.

There is not complete privacy.  That aside, as I said before, I did not accuse your brother of having malicious intent or causing harm.  I said I wanted it addressed.  To date he has only obliquely admitted it.  

Not all deception is bad.  A woman comes running past you with a terrified look on her face.  A minute later a man with a bloody ax comes from the same direction and asks if you'd seen a woman run by, because he is going to kill her.  You tell him "yes" and point him in the wrong direction.  You lied, but that did not make it wrong to do.  It would have been immoral for you to tell him the truth.

I think that is what the two of you are having a difficult time with.  You emotionally read "dishonesty" as always bad. If he thought about what I asked, it would be easy.  Instead he has been very defensive.

Not sure what you mean by that?

Nothing good.  Forget I said it.  I was frustrated. I am sorry.

[blue]

Just go read the thread folks.  It's all there.

Put the shovel down screwtape; just walk away from the shovel.

Sorry Star Stuff I've been reading the thread and you are completely in the wrong here. You are now concocting out whole cloth things Screwtape is supposedly doing or saying. It seems like you are so committed to proving your point in the face of complete refutation of your point that you can't even think straight. I'd advise walking away from this thread and letting it go.

Blue

*edit for spelling

[Star Stuff]

Sorry Star Stuff I've been reading the thread and you are completely in the wrong here. You are now concocting out whole cloth things Screwtape is supposedly doing or saying. It seems like you are so committed to proving your point in the face of complete refutation of your point that you can't even think straight. I'd advise walking away from this thread and letting it go.

Can you kindly point to where I am "in the wrong", or are you just taking sides for some unseen reason?

[blue]

Can you kindly point to where I am "in the wrong", or are you just taking sides for some unseen reason?

I'd be delighted to, and Screwtape has already gone through and done the majority of the work in post #180, Azdgari pointed it out starting in post #75. Your response in post #71 was dead wrong in understanding Screwtape and you didn't even fully quote the relevant information from his post #69.

Your ego seems to be committed at this point to this spat. I enjoy your posts and am rather surprised at the way you've been going on here. Again I advise you to just let it go. Is winning a post on the internet that important really?  That's my .02. Take what you want from it.

Best,

Blue

[Star Stuff]

Blue:  I'd love to "let this go", but when one is being wrongly accused, one is inclined to defend ones self.  Wouldn't you?

I have asked you to go through the thread and point out to me where I've gone "completely wrong" as you've claimed, and you have failed to do that. Just read it from the start.

It should be plain to see that there was absolutely no intent to deceive, or lie or anything remotely like that; not in the slightest.  That's just not me.  Sure some may have had a surprise when I revealed that NOTF is my sister, but to transfer that into some blame of deception is just patently rediculous and a knee-jerk reaction.

As I have said already numerous times, I would have said the exact same things I did say even if I didn't know NOTF, so what's the big deal?  I'm very glad that L6 made a recent post refering us to a thread from the old forum from 3 YEARS AGO. Check out my reply (#8) and you will see that it is basically the same as what I've stated here.  So was I "completely in the wrong" there too?

[Azdgari]

I have asked you to go through the thread and point out to me where I've gone "completely wrong" as you've claimed, and you have failed to do that. Just read it from the start.

He cited specifics, and gave a brief reason for citing each.  Seems you're more interested in emotionally defending your ego than in rational introspection.

[Star Stuff]

Those other specifics are horse shit, as already hashed out. Kinda neat though how you ignored the rest of my last post. How convenient.

[Azdgari]

The post wasn't even to me, and you're complaining that I did not respond to it in its entirety?   

Most of the post was just you proclaiming your innocence.  The only substantial part was the final paragraph, the part about your previous post in L6's old thread.  Here is the post in question:

Good going L6.  I'd suggest sending a copy of "The Reason Driven Life" by Robert M. Price to those who gave you "A Purpose driven life".

You can hear an interview with Robert M Price where he talks about these books on:    www.pointofinquiry.org
(it may be a few web-pages deep, and the actual interview begins after about 9 minutes)

I am quite up-front with anyone from my 25 year christian past............except my parents.  Presently, they are 78, and I know for sure (100%) that if I were to communicate to them what I really think about the christian belief system, they, especially my mom, would be so incredibly upset that they wouldn't sleep at night. So out of love, I feel it's best not to cause all that grief.  They are very simple people and cannot debate/discuss at any kind of intellectual level.  They see the world through bible verses and child-like ideas;  a "do as you're told" non-questioning mentality.

So sensitivity is sometimes good to employ.  My folks are not about to change their minds in the winter of their lives.

Notice how calm you are, how non-strident and non-defensive?  And you stayed that way all thread.  Quite different from your demeanor in this thread, that.  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that your sister wasn't posting in that thread, and wasn't getting advice with which you disagreed.  This thread has emotional issues for you that the other one does not, since it is centered around suggestions for what your sister should do within your family, rather than what L6 had already done within his family.

[Star Stuff]

Notice how calm you are, how non-strident and non-defensive?  And you stayed that way all thread.  Quite different from your demeanor in this thread, that.  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that your sister wasn't posting in that thread...

Or, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I wasn't jumped on by two rabid pit bulls.  Again, if you look through the beginning of this thread ( before it went sideways), my comments were pretty calm & reasoned, and what I would have said in any event.

[Azdgari]

I am not a rabid pit bull, Star Stuff.  I am not even a canine.  If you have something to say about me, then please state it without hyperbole, so that it can be assessed rationally.

And you started getting defensive of NotF at the top of page 2, in response to L6.  Justifiably so, in light of your relation to the OP.  And then you got uber-defensive on page 3, which is (coincidentally?) when NotF started actually conversing with Screwtape and myself (notice that we weren't attacking either of you, much less like pit bulls, but merely expressing ideas that you disliked).

[Star Stuff]

And you started getting defensive of NotF at the top of page 2, in response to L6.  Justifiably so, in light of your relation to the OP.  And then you got uber-defensive on page 3, which is (coincidentally?) when NotF started actually conversing with Screwtape and myself

This is just my entire point!  You are seeing my replies through your own glasses which have guilt filters on them, just like what is explained in that book I refered to earlier. You really should find a copy and read it.  It's really something to watch play out once one is aware of it.  What you are failing to acknowledge and appreciate, is what I've said over & over, that I would have said those very same things had I not known NOTF. And I still maintain the stance that it would be a better idea not to deliver such a blow to frail, eldery parents!  I have that opinion because I have frail, elderly parents.  Please get that, for once you do, you will lose this seemingly passioned desire to hang me.

[Azdgari]

I just noticed, while perusing the thread, that I never responded to this:

Have you ever met Glenn Beck?

Wow, that fails.  Have NotF's parents regularly been on television expressing their views?

My point was not that NotF's parents are public figures.  My point was that there are other ways of knowing that someone is an arrogant jerk than meeting them.  Since it was your implication here that one needed to meet them in order to correctly assess someone, one needed to meet them:

Except for the fact that the assessment is not neccessarily correct, as they have never met said people.

...the point was a reasonable one to make.  There are other ways to assess whether someone is an arrogant jerk.  One such way is through the testimony of others who have met them, such as NotF:

What I mean is because I am the baby of the family, they do not think that I am as smart as they are. Example whenever I bring anything up about how to feed your pets the proper way, not commercial pet food, they just laugh at me. It makes me angry because I have educated myself on this subject so much.  Also mentioning about the scientific findings that are being made is another one.

That works in lieu of watching them on TV.

[Azdgari]

This is just my entire point!  You are seeing my replies through your own glasses which have guilt filters on them, just like what is explained in that book I refered to earlier. You really should find a copy and read it.  It's really something to watch play out once one is aware of it.

How would you react if an ardent Christian - say, Fran - used this line on you?  Would you take it at face-value, or would you look over the posts in question?  The latter, right?

And if you did, and still reached the same conclusion, would you then assume that your ability to rationally judge the matter is compromised, based on Fran's testimony?  Probably not, right?  So why do you want/expect a different standard to be applied here?

What you are failing to acknowledge and appreciate, is what I've said over & over, that I would have said those very same things had I not known NOTF.

You would have been just as defensive and strident had she not been there?  Or did you mean something else?  The bolded text is so vague that it is not useful in understanding what you mean.

And I still maintain the stance that it would be a better idea not to deliver such a blow to frail, eldery parents!  I have that opinion because I have frail, elderly parents.  Please get that, for once you do, you will lose this seemingly passioned desire to hang me.

I have no passioned desire to hang you, only for you to conduct yourself with intellectual honesty.  That includes toning down the hyperbole:

I am not a rabid pit bull, Star Stuff.  I am not even a canine.  If you have something to say about me, then please state it without hyperbole, so that it can be assessed rationally.

As for the rest, I know what your opinion is on the outing yourself to the kinds of parents you describe, and I know why you have that opinion.  That doesn't give you an excuse to conduct yourself dishonestly on the forum.

[Star Stuff]

How would you react if an ardent Christian - say, Fran - used this line on you?  Would you take it at face-value, or would you look over the posts in question?  The latter, right?

Yes, and this is what I keep on saying. Read the thread without your guilt glasses on.  It appears that you can't do that.

And if you did, and still reached the same conclusion, would you then assume that your ability to rationally judge the matter is compromised, based on Fran's testimony?  Probably not, right?  So why do you want/expect a different standard to be applied here?

I don't get that?  You seem to be off on a tangent.

You would have been just as defensive and strident had she not been there?

There's those glasses talking again!  They make what is normal debate about an issue seem "defensive" and strident" and "uber".  I can't help that. You need to take off your glasses that you have put on. If I could reach through the screen I would.

Or did you mean something else?  The bolded text is so vague that it is not useful in understanding what you mean.

If NOTF was a total stranger, I would have said the very same things. So your desire to make this emotional connection just because I know her is false.

As for the rest, I know what your opinion is on the outing yourself to the kinds of parents you describe, and I know why you have that opinion.  That doesn't give you an excuse to conduct yourself dishonestly on the forum.

This is the sort of thing makes me angry. Being falsely accused. I am an incredibly honest person - to a fault, and your accusation is so offensive because you seem to have it in your mind that I intentionally was dishonest.  I wasn't.  I was not even unintentionally dishonest.

[Azdgari]

I called your posts defensive at that point because you began to mischaracterize the posts to which you were replying, to defend your own.  That is also dishonest.  That you cannot see this is not my fault.

[Star Stuff]

I called your posts defensive at that point because you began to mischaracterize the posts to which you were replying, to defend your own.  That is also dishonest.  That you cannot see this is not my fault.

I just read them again, and cannot concur. They are straight up, honest replies. If you are correct in a mischaracterization on my part (which I'm not granting you) then that would be either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization, not dishonesty.

Glasses!

[Azdgari]

Yes, perhaps your ego-glasses do need to come off.

EDIT:  To be clear, and as Screwtape has explained already at length, you mischaracterized what he was suggesting that NotF do with your family.  Let's start with that limited and clear-cut issue.

[shnozzola]

shnozzola,
Could one or more of your family members do something that would make you consider that maybe they no longer deserve your respect?

That’s a good question, Jetson.  My parents kept foster kids that were tough cookies, we put up with a lot.  Let’s go for as heinous as possible.  Let’s say my atheist brother in law were to murder my theist sister.  I can not say what I would do.  I would like to think I could visit him in prison.  I don’t know if I could forgive him.  I don’t know if I could respect him.  I would like to think I could.  I would probably look at it as a mental problem, and he needs support, especially in prison. 

Maybe a family like mine is spineless cowards, afraid of conflict, as L6 said earlier- we talk and laugh about our view of “not wanting to make waves.”   It may be we think love is more important than life.  Maybe a pacifist thing.  At least pacifists are banned from rapture-ready.com

[Not on the fence]

I just noticed, while perusing the thread, that I never responded to this:

Have you ever met Glenn Beck?

Wow, that fails.  Have NotF's parents regularly been on television expressing their views?

My point was not that NotF's parents are public figures.  My point was that there are other ways of knowing that someone is an arrogant jerk than meeting them.  Since it was your implication here that one needed to meet them in order to correctly assess someone, one needed to meet them:

Except for the fact that the assessment is not neccessarily correct, as they have never met said people.

...the point was a reasonable one to make.  There are other ways to assess whether someone is an arrogant jerk.  One such way is through the testimony of others who have met them, such as NotF:

What I mean is because I am the baby of the family, they do not think that I am as smart as they are. Example whenever I bring anything up about how to feed your pets the proper way, not commercial pet food, they just laugh at me. It makes me angry because I have educated myself on this subject so much.  Also mentioning about the scientific findings that are being made is another one.

That works in lieu of watching them on TV.

 Um.... actually Adzgari I was talking about my siblings here, not my parents, and neither of them are jerks, they are just dilusional, and if people took the time to watch the video I posted then maybe they may understand where Im coming from.

Also Im sorry to still find this thread still open.  I requested it to be shut down this  afternoon, but I get home from work and its still here, sorry about that.
Would someone please shut this thread down!!!
I now declare it shut down until an Admin to get around to it.  So please no more, its getting us nowhere.

Edit** just read my email, Admin will not shut it down, we just have to be grown up enough to just walk away. So that is what we have to do.

[Azdgari]

I know you were talking about your siblings.  And I realize that they may not be arrogant jerks.  But that's what you made them sound like, at the time, and it makes no sense to denounce someone for drawing that interpretation from what you had said.

As for shutting this thread down:  Indeed, its primary topic is no longer you asking advice.  But if the current discussion is "going nowhere", then shouldn't the mods then put Star Stuff in the ER for stonewalling and refusing to acknowledge points?

[screwtape]

^^ I second that.

[screwtape]

... if people took the time to watch the video I posted then maybe they may understand where Im coming from.

Or, another way to look at it is, if you took the time to articulate what you mean, people would understand you without having to go watch a video.  If you want a point to be understood, it is incumbent on you to communicate that point.  Don't foist the responsibility off onto others.  It may be a good video, and it may say everything you mean, but it is not immediately accessable to me.  If I expressed my point in Punjabi and insist you have it translated, that would not be communication.

Also Im sorry to still find this thread still open.

I'm not.  One way or the other, it is a demonstration of how we can all fall into a trap of irrationality. How, despite our atheism and professed reason, we are still using 250,000 year old brains that are driven by emotions.  This is important for us to know and hopefully helps us be aware of it in ourselves.

And for the record, I still do not dislike Star Stuff nor do I have any hard feelings.