Author Topic: "Wake up!"  (Read 6766 times)

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Offline Emily

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2010, 08:38:12 PM »
^^ That about sums it up, William.

FWIW: RealityCheck, have you seen this thread about secular charities;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3781.0

Are you aware that there are secular charities out there, doing the same thing that those "religious charities" are doing, except that aren't doing it in the name of God or Jesus? Get off your self-righteous high horse.

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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Gimpy

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »
By the way, again, this is "stealing":

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35507224/ns/world_news-haiti_earthquake/

ALL Haitian 'orphans' had relatives

"A reporter's visit Saturday to the rubble-strewn Citron slum, where 13 of the children lived, led to their parents, all of whom said they turned their youngsters over to the missionary group voluntarily in hopes of getting them to safety.

Similar explanations were given by parents in the mountain town of Callabas, outside Port-au-Prince, who told the AP on Feb. 3 that desperation and blind faith led them to hand over 20 children to the Baptist group."

And this excerpt:

"Since the arrest of the missionaries at the border on Jan. 30, the parents in Citron have been worrying they may never see their children again. One mother who gave up her four children, including a 3-month-old, is in a trancelike depression, occasionally erupting into fits of hysteria.

Her husband and other parents in Citron said they relinquished their children to the U.S. missionaries because they were promised safekeeping across the border in a newly established orphanage in the Dominican Republic.

Their stories contradict the missionaries' still-jailed leader, Laura Silsby, who told the AP the day after her arrest that the children were either orphans or came from distant relatives."


So what these human trafficking thieves did was to lie and take advantage of scared and uneducated, yet loving, parents in order to steal the kids away and keep them -- despicable.

The human thieves rationalize it much like you did (surprise surprise) in that "Hey, we're just trying to get them to safety." Even though they lied to both the parents and the authorities about what they were doing.

If they wanted to help, why not take the whole freaking family?! Huh?! WHY!?

Turns. My. Stomach.
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Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2010, 11:45:40 PM »
Hi Reality Check,

The bank called, your check bounced, again...
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline RealityCheck

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2010, 12:38:20 AM »
Hahahahaha

Hi Reality Check,

The bank called, your check bounced, again...

Offline RealityCheck

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2010, 12:42:18 AM »
Women and children first?

There are too many people on that island for a private group to take off.

Though unrealistic, I wish all of them would move to a different place on the map. Their geographical location is terrible.

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Offline RealityCheck

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2010, 12:46:35 AM »
Yes, please grasp meaning over typos.

c-h-a-r-i-t-a-b-l-e charitable.

Quote
I am also sorry for implying (mindlessly) that Christians were more cheritable than atheists

Cheers :)

...should I make fun of the typo...?
...
...I'm not gonna make fun of the typo...


Offline Aspie

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2010, 02:34:46 AM »
Sounds a bit paranoid to me!

Well I confess it was mostly hyperbole, but it is pretty scary when you have a powerful political party pandering to the fundamentalists, complete with nuts who publicize the need to scrap the Constitution in favor of Christian dogma, claim to speak for God and justify wars with "God's will!", and call the separation of church and state a lie perpetuated by the sneaky secularists who deny the nation's true Christian roots.

The sad part is such politicians in the US will garner support just for invoking God, whereas admitting to being an atheist is usually political suicide.

Quote
Oh, I know it. I try to think out of the box. I know what you mean, though. Typically it is the same set of canned responses, though. But, the same thing comes for your side of things.

Well yeah, any heated issue is typically going to fall into sets of the same arguments in short order. It's the unique ways in which the arguments are presented though that can make them so damn hilarious, from Ray Comfort's argument from bananas to Robert Byers' creationist drivel about how polar bears turned white with fear. Plus fundamentalists seem to have a talent for blowing anything out of proportion.

Quote
Like, the whole universe being contained in a "." before the big bang. I have references for science books that actually said that! I mean, seriously?

First of all, according to the actual theory the Universe was not in the singularity, it was the initial state of the singularity. Second, without space-time from the Big Bang there would be no mechanism by which the energy would be expected to expand.

Quote
Wait wait wait - don't lose me here! I apologize for this one. The Bible doesn't even say that works should be something that should be boasted about - that wasn't something that I was trying to get across.

The thing is that we're not denying the ability of believers to do good things, it's mainly the believers who will claim to be the pinnacles of morality and condemn non-believers as the harbingers of degeneracy.

Quote
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
(works meaning doing good things).

The Catholics would like a word with you.  ;D

Works here could also mean works of the law, implying that it's through Christ alone and not just following the laws that you're saved. But whatever, I'll leave scripture wars for the Christians to settle - or, more accurately, to not settle and instead continue to divide the Church of God into over 30,000 sects and claim they are the "One True Path" to God.

Quote
However, it has been my impression based upon the many conversations I have with atheists that religion is all bad and no good. Surely you don't believe that, do you? I mean, surely there is a difference (in your eyes) between the "religious" culture of the west and the "religious" culture of the middle east today or the culture thousands of years ago?

Well it depends whether you look at it as its followers or the practice itself. The anti-theist mindset is pretty much this in a nut shell:

Quote from: Steven Weinburg
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.

You'll find no shortage of anti-theists here who see religion as a mind virus, considering the site itself advocates anti-theism, but not every atheist is automatically an anti-theist. It's no surprise that you'll run into more anti-theists considering that you're probably not going to be very vocal about your atheism if you don't care about religion. There are also atheists who do believe in the supernatural.

I personally don't see religion as a good or bad thing, but I do find it interesting. Of course, I'm probably not going to keep silent when there are believers who try to force doctrine into my nation's legislation, subvert valid science, and consistently demonize me.  ;)

Quote
Let's assume there is a God for this point. (I am close to a math-minor so I know that science and math does this ALL the time - that is how they get theories!).

Well if your science books are telling you that the Universe was inside a dot I guess I shouldn't be surprised at your thinking this is anywhere close to how the scientific method actually works. Science certainly does not make scientific theories by positing superfluous, supernatural entities in order to give non-answers to hard questions - that's the domain of theology.

LOL! Well, just remember.. that is your opinion. No eyes have seen no ears have heard everything that brought about this life. We haven't even seen the entire universe let alone what happened 2000 years ago or 2 million years ago... or infinite years ago? Crazy. The big bang is a myth in Atheists heads IMO. How can a seemingly infinite universe fit into a dot that is smaller than a period on this post "." ? I mean, seriously? And you have a problem with people who believe in an intelligent designer. wow.

Argument from personal incredulity.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 02:47:04 AM by Aspie »

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2010, 04:50:33 AM »
LOL! Well, just remember.. that is your opinion. No eyes have seen no ears have heard everything that brought about this life. We haven't even seen the entire universe let alone what happened 2000 years ago or 2 million years ago... or infinite years ago? Crazy. The big bang is a myth in Atheists heads IMO. How can a seemingly infinite universe fit into a dot that is smaller than a period on this post "." ? I mean, seriously? And you have a problem with people who believe in an intelligent designer. wow.

Funny how you make an assumption that since I cannot believe in the 1000's of gods out there that I would believe in the big bang theory yet I have held off from such an idea on the bases of I just don't know if this happened.  I know a lot of people here might give me information on this and then maybe I will decide.

Theists do this all the time they think because some believe how something happened that they believe it.

I'm willing to bet that science will come up with a theory on this more than you would know if there is intelegent design.
I am sure they already have and I have also read so much against intelegent disign
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
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Offline DaBungalow

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2010, 06:08:36 AM »
Quote
Yes, please grasp meaning over typos.

c-h-a-r-i-t-a-b-l-e charitable.
 

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Are you implying I made the typo? I was just highlighting yours, hopefully not in a malicious way.

Offline plethora

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2010, 07:00:25 AM »
Hi Reality Check... I've only just read this thread as I do have a job, wife, kid, hobbies, etc...

Like xphobe, I too work in IT and check out this site mostly at work in between server upgrades, implementations and other tasks...

Let me tell you why I come here... (do take the time to read this please):

I was raised as a catholic... in fact, most of us here are ex-theists, particularly ex-christians. I gradually stopped believing as I grew up. Not because something bad happened to me that made me "lose my faith" ... I simply found the stories about god and jesus more and more unbelievable as I grew up.

For a while I thought I was the only one around me with this lack of belief (which I was really in my circle of family and friends). I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. It took a long time to come out to my parents.

You don't know how difficult it is to look into your mother's teary eyes while she is preaching at you literally afraid that you are going to burn in hell for eternity. I'm a parent so I know the fear of my child being in any kind of danger is the worst feeling there is.

My mom is afraid for me and it's not because I'm a bad person, it's just because I don't believe in her god. Plain and simple. Once she said something like "You're a good person... you work hard, you take care of your family, why won't you open your heart to god and let your family do the same? Why put them at risk like that?" ... she's afraid my 7-year old daughter, her grand daughter, is at risk from salvation because she is not baptized and doesn't believe in god.

Years go by, I am very comfortable with my lack of belief in a god and the relationship with my family gradually improved. The only rule is that we don't talk about religion. My mom says she prays for me and my family. Fine...

The internet booms and suddenly you can seek out like-minded people and share ideas. I find this site and these forums... finally! I have found a place where there are others who share my stance on religion! A place where people exchange ideas and thoughts in an intellectually honest way. A place where reality is embraced.

Then a theist comes in and implies that, as an atheist, I am morally inferior and I am wasting my time on this site. He says this without knowing me, my history or anything about what I do in my life. Then he wonders why people are angry at him and assumes it's just because they are a bunch of "angry atheists".

I appreciate you have apoligized for this after the mod called you on it... I just wanted you to know how theists tend to make snap judgements based on the simple fact that I do not believe in god. Excuuuuuse me if I have a big ol' chip on my shoulder...


Now, about your god... speaking about the Haitians you said:

Though unrealistic, I wish all of them would move to a different place on the map. Their geographical location is terrible.

How does god fit this scenario. You believe your god created this earth and everything in it. He created life and created people. How the you explain that your deity has allowed these people's ancestors to be brought over to this island as slaves, only for their childrens' children to live in a poor disaster stricken country in a bad geographical location.

Can you explain to me what's so great about "god's plan" that innocent people ... children ... have had to suffer this way?

The fact is, there is no plan, there is no god... there is only reality and the reality is that a long, huge, complex series of events have lead up to this tragedy. There is no one to blame and the best we can do is deal with it. I have donated towards the cause for the Haitians... what has your fictional god given them?


* goes for a walk to shake off the frustration a bit *
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Gimpy

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2010, 08:17:29 AM »
Women and children first?

There are too many people on that island for a private group to take off.

Though unrealistic, I wish all of them would move to a different place on the map. Their geographical location is terrible.


FAIL!! TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE POSSIBLE!

The "christians" LIED to both the parents AND the officials about their intents for the children.

They took advantage of frightened and desperate people.

And you CONTINUE to rationalize their abhorrent behavior. I notice that not only did they leave the WOMEN behind, they tried to convince the authorities that the WOMEN (the children's MOTHERS) were DEAD!

How does it feel to be a liar for your god?
Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline xphobe

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2010, 09:04:20 AM »
Though unrealistic, I wish all of them would move to a different place on the map. Their geographical location is terrible.

And yet the Dominican Republic, in the exact same geographical location, is doing fine.

Missionaries have a poor track record of doing the wrong thing for what they perceive as the right reasons.   Even assuming that they didn't knowingly lie about the children being orphans, it was incredibly stupid for them to just take children without getting permission and assume everything would be ok.  I hope a few weeks in a Haiti jail will teach them a valuable lesson.
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2010, 10:10:43 AM »
^^^If I was the judge they would get the maximum sentence the evidence allows for.
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline Positiveaob

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2010, 11:24:53 AM »
RealityCheck, for someone who so condescendingly pointed out how much time we atheists waste on this site, you sure are spending a lot of time here.  Why aren’t you out living life to the fullest?

And I am still waiting for your response to my question from before, about how could you possibly justify contributing to Haitian relief from a christian perspective.  Before you jump in with some nonsense about a woman eating a fruit leading to all this, let me walk through what I think is your logic and you can correct me specifically where I am wrong:

1.  There is an invisible but all-powerful, all-knowing deity that created everything and everyone.

2. For some reason, he gets pissed every now and then and massacres large numbers of his creations without telling any of us why, leaving it to all of us creations to just speculate and figure it out for ourselves.

3.  He then expects other creations of his, or rather “calls” other creations of his, to go help those left surviving.  He calls them to go help those who have lost their parents, their children, their homes, their limbs.  He sends them to go help comfort those who were doing nothing but leading normal lives when 37 seconds took away everything they ever loved.  All when he could have just NOT CAUSED THE EARTHQUAKE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!  What POSSIBLE sense does that make?

Please don’t respond with some nonsense about how I think your god is evil.  I don’t hate your god anymore than I hate Darth Vader for destroying Alderaan.  He’s a fictional character.  I’m just pointing out the nonsense in this belief system.

We atheists have no such contradictions in our thinking when we contribute to Haitian relief.  We don’t do it under fear of a big brother in the sky or in the hopes of gaining favor of an invisible friend.  We do it because we want to live in a world where people help each other out in a time of need, and by contributing to the efforts we are making the world we live in better.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 11:26:32 AM by Positiveaob »
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Offline Positiveaob

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2010, 11:29:05 AM »

Their geographical location is terrible.

What’s so “terrible” about it?  Haiti is a beautiful country with a wonderful tropical climate.  What is so terrible about living in Haiti?  I’m curious.

 Do you feel the same about those crazy enough to have been living along the coastlines of India, Indonesia, Sri Lanka when the Tsunami took out 200,000 innocent people in 2004?  Was that disaster due to a deal with the devil also?
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

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Offline Gimpy

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2010, 11:56:36 AM »

We atheists have no such contradictions in our thinking when we contribute to Haitian relief.  We don’t do it under fear of a big brother in the sky or in the hopes of gaining favor of an invisible friend.  We do it because we want to live in a world where people help each other out in a time of need, and by contributing to the efforts we are making the world we live in better.


I've been thinking about this after responding in a similar fashion to another poster elsewhere on the board and it has slowly dawned on me that theists apparently actually think and believe that non-theists completely ignore other human beings and have no ability or desire to involve themselves in volunteering of their time, talent, energy or materials to better the lives of other human beings, either on an on-going basis or in times of disaster, emergency or trauma.

There are very few people I've met in my life, regardless of their philosophical belief in a supreme being or not, who have not, on some level, answered a personal call to reach out and assist another human being in need.



Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline Agga

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2010, 03:08:38 PM »
Have you learned anything new about athiests yet, RealityCheck?

A man with any form of real character would acknowledge what, without sarcasm. and maybe retract some earlier snipes.


At least, that's what I'd do if I'd been pwned on a christian forum after a few posts.


Edit: oops.  Poor spelling.  &)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 04:19:43 PM by Agga »
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Gaston

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2010, 04:18:11 PM »
I've been thinking about this after responding in a similar fashion to another poster elsewhere on the board and it has slowly dawned on me that theists apparently actually think and believe that non-theists completely ignore other human beings and have no ability or desire to involve themselves in volunteering of their time, talent, energy or materials to better the lives of other human beings, either on an on-going basis or in times of disaster, emergency or trauma.

Am I getting this completely wrong, or are you actually using a generalization where you show discontempt with other people generalizing?
Agnostics are not fence sitters, as true believers on either side think, loyal to no one. We just don't believe in fences. ~ fivegalaxies, imdb

Offline Grogan

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2010, 04:22:15 PM »
The big bang is a myth in Atheists heads IMO. How can a seemingly infinite universe fit into a dot that is smaller than a period on this post "." ? I mean, seriously? And you have a problem with people who believe in an intelligent designer. wow.

Many theists, including christians, believe in the big bang theory. Just because you are ignorant about science AND delusional about gods doesn't mean all of you are both.
Quote from: kenn
You want to understand God and the world around you through science and logic alone and, because you cannot come up with a "reasonable" explanation for what they ate when leaving the ark, you dismiss it.

Offline Gimpy

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2010, 05:16:37 PM »
I've been thinking about this after responding in a similar fashion to another poster elsewhere on the board and it has slowly dawned on me that theists apparently actually think and believe that non-theists completely ignore other human beings and have no ability or desire to involve themselves in volunteering of their time, talent, energy or materials to better the lives of other human beings, either on an on-going basis or in times of disaster, emergency or trauma.

Am I getting this completely wrong, or are you actually using a generalization where you show discontempt with other people generalizing?

No, I'm recognizing a pattern based on first-person encounters.


Edited to add:

You knucklehead, you!




« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 05:18:37 PM by Gimpy »
Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline Azdgari

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2010, 07:54:50 PM »
I've been thinking about this after responding in a similar fashion to another poster elsewhere on the board and it has slowly dawned on me that theists apparently actually think and believe that non-theists completely ignore other human beings and have no ability or desire to involve themselves in volunteering of their time, talent, energy or materials to better the lives of other human beings, either on an on-going basis or in times of disaster, emergency or trauma.
Am I getting this completely wrong, or are you actually using a generalization where you show discontempt with other people generalizing?

If the generalizations to which Gimpy was showing contempt (not "discontempt) were based on personal experience, like Gimpy's generalization is, then they wouldn't deserve such disrespect.

Do you believe that this is the case?
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline lectricpharaoh

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2010, 08:32:17 PM »
'Discontempt', haha.  I just learned a new word.  I'll put that in the list with 'irregardless' and 'unpossible'.  :)
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Offline xphobe

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2010, 08:36:07 PM »
Why it's a perfectly cromulent word!    :D
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline blahsphemer

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2010, 08:49:25 PM »
Quote
How many atheists are serving in Haiti right now?
And how many Haitians has jesus helped?
ExactlyZERO
Considering who it is he claims to be that's pretty pathetic.
  <<the kind of christian woman i like.

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2010, 10:16:51 PM »
Why it's a perfectly cromulent word!    :D

Doh!
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline Gaston

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2010, 06:31:37 AM »
'Discontempt', haha.  I just learned a new word.  I'll put that in the list with 'irregardless' and 'unpossible'.  :)

Mmm, not sure where that came from. I meant to write "Discontent". Not sure if it's cromulent or not though...
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Offline elpucko

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2010, 09:34:47 AM »
If the purpose of this site is to make it so that "believers" wake up and smell the coffee and live their life to the fullest - what are you all doing in here, wasting time, some of you posting thousands of posts. I mean, seriously, "believers" don't need you. Get out of this forum, delete your account, go hang with friends and family because you believe this life is all that you have and so you better start living it right now!

1st: I just love it when people troll website for the sole purpose of telling other people who frequent those same site that they "do not have a life". Only a religious person could perfect that kind of hypocrisy.

2nd: Personally, I think that the greatest contribution that I can make to this world is by (a) being informed about how the universe actually works and (b) helping others to understand how it actually works as well (<-read "helping others to overcome delusions). Our lives are filled with a greater purpose than just "hang[ing] with friends and family because [we] believe this life is all that [we] have". This purpose is not a divine one, but it is as close to that as is humanly possible.

Contributing to the destruction of the many systems of unfounded belief that hold our species back is one of the greatest contribution we as humans can give. It is a very worthwhile use of what little time the natural world allows us to have.

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How many atheists are serving in Haiti right now?

How many Christian churches are telling their people not to give to Haiti? How many are preaching Pat Robertsons doctrine of "God's Punishment"?
As ab earlier poster said: "How many Haitians has Jesus helped? Answer: Exactly ZERO"

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How many atheists hang with the homeless and give them food and warm drinks and clothes when it is cold outside?
I would wager that the ratio of Atheists who donate their time and money to those in need greatly outweights the ratio of "Christians" who do the same. Obviously there are many more Theists who donate to various causes, but there are also MANY more Theists who do not. When we want to help people we actually get off our duff in larger numbers (percentage wise) because we do not believe in the power of doing nothing...err....praying.
"Not all good things should be mandated. Not all bad things should be illegal."

Offline Gimpy

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2010, 10:13:56 AM »

How many Christian churches are telling their people not to give to Haiti? How many are preaching Pat Robertsons doctrine of "God's Punishment"?

I can answer at least 3 here in my city.

I reported on an earlier post elsewhere in these forums that when I sent out a call for help for donations to Haiti to various volunteers in a charitable organization that I operate here in my city, one of the groups from a local church declined assistance stating that providing the materials I wanted for Haiti did not "fit in with their mission." Not long after that, two other groups with two other religious organizations did the same.

Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline Azdgari

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Re: "Wake up!"
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2010, 08:31:46 PM »
I notice you responded, Gaston, but not to the yes-or-no question I put forth:

I've been thinking about this after responding in a similar fashion to another poster elsewhere on the board and it has slowly dawned on me that theists apparently actually think and believe that non-theists completely ignore other human beings and have no ability or desire to involve themselves in volunteering of their time, talent, energy or materials to better the lives of other human beings, either on an on-going basis or in times of disaster, emergency or trauma.
Am I getting this completely wrong, or are you actually using a generalization where you show discontempt with other people generalizing?

If the generalizations to which Gimpy was showing contempt (not "discontempt) were based on personal experience, like Gimpy's generalization is, then they wouldn't deserve such disrespect.

Do you believe that this is the case?

To be clear, "the case" in question is "the generalizations to which Gimpy was showing contempt being based on personal experience".
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.