Author Topic: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters  (Read 22564 times)

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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #232 on: June 08, 2012, 02:42:10 PM »
Quote
euroclydon, I'm going to give you a piece of advice: stop trying to make yourself look smart by using "P" and "Q" and whatever. It's not working. All it does is make your posts confusing and impossible to understand, which, IMO, amounts to little more than preaching.

This time I labeled my variables.

Therefore, I am not buying your wares.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #233 on: June 08, 2012, 02:44:39 PM »
This time I labeled my variables.

This is not a computer program. We are not computers. Labeling doesn't do jack shit to help your posts. If you don't believe me, wait until someone else sees your post and says the exact same thing.
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #234 on: June 08, 2012, 02:48:55 PM »
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #235 on: June 08, 2012, 02:51:32 PM »
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I can take the heat[1], and I'd much rather cook than listen to you. Unfortunately, I'm not hungry, so you're all I've got[2]. That said, your failed attempt to look smart is pretty revealing. You probably can't tell what I mean, but I'm sure other people can.
 1. One of the many perks my genes have given me.
 2. Hyperbole. It'll be a sad day when all I've got is you.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:53:45 PM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #236 on: June 08, 2012, 02:57:06 PM »
The "P" and "Q" are superfluous, as the terms to which they are being applied are terms, using English words.  Those words can be used in place of P and Q, thus simplifying reading and removing the need to look back at what the variables mean.

If you cannot compose your post without using the "P" and "Q" to keep yourself from getting confused, then the option is always available to take them out after you've finished the post but before the post is submitted.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #237 on: June 08, 2012, 03:01:02 PM »
I am not confused.

Offline Emily

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #238 on: June 08, 2012, 03:08:21 PM »
I believe I learned from Historicity that when trying to use variables in the case euroclydon is using it, it's easier to follow by using meaningful letters. Like, foragers would be F, etc
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #239 on: June 08, 2012, 03:09:11 PM »
I am not confused.

Then I'm sure you can do without them.
That's a sarcastic challenge, by the way. I do not believe you can make your point without trying to make people confused as to what it is.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #240 on: June 08, 2012, 03:16:14 PM »
I am not confused.

Well, of course not, and I never implied that you were.  If I'm right, then you're avoiding confusion for yourself by using those variables.  I'm just saying that you can take them out afterward and your reasoning will be clearer to your audience.  That way, you still aren't confused, and neither is anyone else.
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #241 on: June 08, 2012, 05:02:00 PM »
Foraging precedes Agriculture in human history

No time is articulated between the 7th day and the formation of "eth ha Adam" - we don't know how long that was.

To "keep the garden" and to eat "of the garden". (Gen 2:15-16) When you eat what you tend and grow, that's Agriculture, not Foraging. This was not said of the sixth day.

The Sixth Day creation were foragers.

Eve is called the mother of all "living".

Eve is NOT called the mother of all "mankind".

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #242 on: June 08, 2012, 05:32:12 PM »
...to whom is that a response?
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #243 on: June 08, 2012, 05:37:12 PM »
...to whom is that a response?

To anybody that was confused by P -> Q

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #244 on: June 08, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »
So in other words, to nobody?

Because P -> Q is not confusing.  Your occasional incoherence while using it, is.
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #245 on: June 08, 2012, 05:43:30 PM »
^^ you still haven't shown anything to me.  Taking the bible and translating it in your own ways won't help your case, either.  You're applying symbolic meaning to things that weren't supposed to have symbolic meaning in the first place.  You imply that Eve wasn't the first woman created, but rather the first of the 'chosen ones'.  I don't see how you have any reasonable argument, so I'll just leave it at that...
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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #246 on: June 08, 2012, 05:51:23 PM »
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I second the opinion that euroclydon's posts use far too much of this p and q crap, apparantly some attempt to use formal logic on a belief system that depends on faith (and has zero to do with logic).

Basically, I read his posts the same as others who insist on dragging out the meaning of the word 'meaning', without saying anything useful - just a bunch of nonsense dressed up to go out for the evening.

Dressed up or not - it's all still nonsense (and I agree, very close to preaching if not exactly so).



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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #247 on: June 08, 2012, 06:09:07 PM »
Foraging precedes Agriculture in human history

No time is articulated between the 7th day and the formation of "eth ha Adam" - we don't know how long that was.

To "keep the garden" and to eat "of the garden". (Gen 2:15-16) When you eat what you tend and grow, that's Agriculture, not Foraging. This was not said of the sixth day.

The Sixth Day creation were foragers.

Eve is called the mother of all "living".

Eve is NOT called the mother of all "mankind".
I'm sure that there is something in what you say but, unfortunately, I suspect others are in the same position as I and do not know why you have posted this.

Could I ask you give some introduction to the above and any other new ideas. If the ideas are unrelated to the thread, then a new thread will be in order.

As it is, it would be all too easy to conclude that you are being somewhat eccentric.

Thanks
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #248 on: June 08, 2012, 08:30:25 PM »
I am not confused.

Maybe.  But it's not all about you.  The point of communication is to have other people understand what you are saying.  If they don't, you are not communicating. 
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #249 on: June 08, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »
Quote
As it is, it would be all too easy to conclude that you are being somewhat eccentric.

Please accept my humorous interlude.

Inspector Dreyfus was called "mad" several times.

"And you are redundant, Professor! Madness does not preclude achievement!"

My eccentricity is not a negation of fact.

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #250 on: June 08, 2012, 09:29:51 PM »
I am not confused.

Maybe.  But it's not all about you.  The point of communication is to have other people understand what you are saying.  If they don't, you are not communicating.

You're right.

Not all atheists are like this, but in my experience their ridicule of the Bible is accompanied by the words "logic" or "logical".

How many times have Christians been told to read their own Bible? Rightfully so, for they say "Christ" and don't know a thing about Him.

HYPOCRITES!

If an atheist ridicules the Bible with a consistent bombardment of "the Bible is illogical" "that's illogical" "Be logical"...

...AND THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT LOGICAL METHOD OR ITS SYMBOLS!!!! USELESS! HYPOCRITES!

As a man, my anger takes cntrol in situations when it should not
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:32:49 PM by euroclydon »

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #251 on: June 09, 2012, 08:05:16 AM »
I was once told by a Christian that the OT simply points to Jesus and the old laws, excluding the 10 commandments, is no longer relevant. But if they were to read Lev 18 (the Law of Moses), they would say Lev 18 IS relevent.

Something cannot be irrelevent and relevent at the same time. I suppose you think that this is entirely logical though, do you not?

Edit: I like the whole 25 "Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for it's sin, and the land vomited out it's inhabitants."

How does land sin? How does it vomit?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 08:12:18 AM by Ivellios »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #252 on: June 09, 2012, 08:50:07 AM »
If an atheist ridicules the Bible with a consistent bombardment of "the Bible is illogical" "that's illogical" "Be logical"...

...AND THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT LOGICAL METHOD OR ITS SYMBOLS!!!! USELESS! HYPOCRITES!

As a man, my anger takes cntrol in situations when it should not

Well, if you are trying to convince anyone here of anything, you'll have better fortune keeping that in check.


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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #253 on: June 09, 2012, 05:36:32 PM »
If an atheist ridicules the Bible with a consistent bombardment of "the Bible is illogical" "that's illogical" "Be logical"...

...AND THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT LOGICAL METHOD OR ITS SYMBOLS!!!! USELESS! HYPOCRITES!
Your capitals are simply untrue. What you suggest is that prior to the use of symbols in logic, logical thought/opinion of the contents of the Bible was the domain of useless hypocrites. I cannot agree with that.

We have no more intelligence, simple better tools and reference works.

Furthermore, it is not at all unreasonable to say that a talking snake with legs, a talking donkey, or walking on water is at all a logical thing to accept.

Then there is a famous cartoon


that explains the logic of miracles.

Basically, if you start with a false assumption, everything that follows is worthless. It certainly is not logic. or, as I would say, "the Bible is illogical" ; )
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #254 on: June 13, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Playing labeling and pseudo logic word games no more prove your case than any other purveyor of woo.

What what you accept as good evidence that someone was a wizard, a real spell casting can effect reality wizard? I can be reasonably certain it wouldn't be the same thing you are asking for us to accept for your claims.



 
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #255 on: June 13, 2012, 03:47:55 PM »
Logic 101, euroclydon:

When you begin with an assumption, your entire argument predicates on that assumption being true.

Allow me to use an example to explain why your arguments fail despite their structure, based on your foundational issue:

Harry Potter is a literary series consisting of several books.  Over the span of its authorship, it has a remarkable degree of internal consistency; events that happen within the book are, generally, straightforward and comprehensible.  The books are internally logical - accepting the core premise of 'magic', they make sense, both in how the world is constructed and how the story fits together around that construct.

However internally consistent the books may be, however, they are not evidence for the existence of magic, only that the supposition that if magic exited, the world would have a certain shape that strongly resembles the world we have now.  In Harry's world, London exists. King's Cross Station exists.  Little cottages exist.  The geography makes sense, and matches up to reality; the characters could be part of our world, except for the magical bits. 

Unfortunately, they cannot be considered histories - magic doesn't exist. 

If you picked up these books without context, or- even better - with a dust jacket that proclaimed them to be absolutely true in every word, with events that took place in the late 50's - would you, after reading them, consider them histories.. or would it make more sense to point out that magic itself is illogical based on our current understanding of the world, and dismiss them as fantasy?

If the core assumption of 'truth' is illogical - that's the illogic you hear us talk about the most.  Donkeys don't talk.  People don't rise from the  dead.  Nobody heals with a touch.  Tyre is still standing.  Bald men don't send bears out to kill children that ridicule them.  These things just ... don't happen.  The world doesn't, and as best we can tell, never has worked that way.

You begin from the assumption and viewpoint that the bible is true and is internally consistent.  You build all of your logical proofs from these assumptions, and use these assumptions to prove themselves (like you did with the 'who was at the tomb' question).  I don't care if the bible had the same level of consistency as Rowling's work - it doesn't make the events true, or make the argument of the faith valid.

The entire flood event (for example) is illogical on its face, given what we know about genetics, migrations, the age of the world, and more (not to mention the thriving societies of c.a. 4000BCE that just didn't notice it happening).  That it is internally consistent doesn't help it in the slightest.

Get the point?  All of your logic doesn't save you if your core assumptions are insupportable.
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