Author Topic: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters  (Read 21542 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #116 on: May 03, 2012, 01:42:27 AM »
That is absurd.  Anyone else care to try?

It's not absurd. Why don't you try to define what a christian is?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #117 on: May 03, 2012, 01:44:44 AM »
Yes it is absurd.  If someone claims they are a democrat then for a fact are they a democrat?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #118 on: May 03, 2012, 01:47:01 AM »
Yes it is absurd.  If someone claims they are a democrat then for a fact are they a democrat?

False analogy. As I have explained, "christian" is not well defined. "Democrat" is. So is "atheist", BTW.
Since you apparently missed my request (and Astreja's definition), I'll ask you again: Define it yourself.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:04:58 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #119 on: May 03, 2012, 02:02:45 AM »
A Christian is defined as someone who is "like christ" or "christlike".

Quote
If you cannot understand that simple rule of logic, you're an idiot.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2012, 02:04:24 AM »
A Christian is defined as someone who is "like christ" or "christlike".

Now, what does it mean to be "christlike"? And while you're at it, who is this "christ"?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #121 on: May 03, 2012, 02:07:41 AM »
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Now, what does it mean to be "christlike"?

Someone that lives their life like Christ did, at least as far as humanly possible.

Quote
And while you're at it, who is this "christ"?

The life of Jesus Christ is recorded in the Christian scriptures.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #122 on: May 03, 2012, 02:08:46 AM »
The life of Jesus Christ is recorded in the Christian scriptures.

What are those?
Also, note that you haven't actually defined anything yet. You're just hinging one definition on another.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:10:46 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #123 on: May 03, 2012, 02:10:53 AM »
Those that are in the latter part of the Bible beginning with Mathew and ending with Revelation.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #124 on: May 03, 2012, 02:11:45 AM »
Those that are in the latter part of the Bible beginning with Mathew and ending with John.

Which version?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #125 on: May 03, 2012, 02:14:30 AM »
I require an english version.  I prefer the New World Translation but I often compare several versions.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2012, 02:17:22 AM »
I require an english version.  I prefer the New World Translation but I often compare several versions.

Alright.
Quote from: Matthew 10:34
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Quote from: Luke 12:51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

I think "Luke" is between those two books you mentioned, right?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2012, 02:21:04 AM »
Quote
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Yes this is true.  What do you think it means?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2012, 02:24:43 AM »
Yes this is true.  What do you think it means?

So it's also a matter of interpretation. As you can see, the definition (and I mean the FULL definition) is up to personal interpretation which, for all purposes and effects, makes it meaningless. Only you interpret the Bible in the exact way that you do, so only you are a "real" christian.
Or maybe not. I haven't seen you start any wars recently. Hitler was probably a better christian than you'll ever be.

By the way, if atheists act like the Bible says Jesus did, does that mean that they're actually christians? What about muslims and mormons?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2012, 02:40:39 AM »
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So it's also a matter of interpretation

No it's a matter of finding the truth.  The Bible clearly shows there is only one truth. 

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one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ephesians 4:5

This does not allow for thousands of denominations and interpretations.

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  Also, note that you haven't actually defined anything yet. You're just hinging one definition on another.

Yes I have but only in the broadest sense.

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False analogy. As I have explained, "christian" is not well defined. "Democrat" is. So is "atheist", BTW

No it is not.

Christians are Christlike as democrats democratlike.  But I will make it simpler.

Is someone a U.S. citizen because they claim to be one?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2012, 02:47:25 AM »
No it's a matter of finding the truth.  The Bible clearly shows there is only one truth. 

Quote
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ephesians 4:5

This does not allow for thousands of denominations and interpretations.

Strangely enough, that "one truth" is claimed by every denomination of christianity there is. All 38,000+ of them. Jesus says he came to bring war and division. You did none of those, as far as I know.
By your own logic, Hitler was a better christian than you will ever be. Unless, of course, you wish to add yet another interpretation to the Bible.
So much for YHWH's "inerrant" and "perfect" book.

Yes I have but only in the broadest sense.

No, you haven't. Case in point:
Christians are Christlike
You've yet to define what "christlike" means without hinging on your personal interpretation of the Bible.

Is someone a U.S. citizen because they claim to be one?

The definition of "USA citizen" is clear, so no. They need to either have been born in the USA or have obtained citizenship through passing whatever trials were set forth to get it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2012, 02:52:19 AM »
Quote
Strangely enough, that "one truth" is claimed by every denomination of christianity there is. All 38,000+

So 37,999+ must be lying.  According to the Bible the truth is there.  Will one ever find it?  That remains to be seen.  The Bible says that it is possible.

Hitler and Christ have nothing in common.  You have stated another absurdity.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:53:52 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2012, 02:54:56 AM »
So 37,999+ must be lying.  According to the Bible the truth is there.  Will one ever find it?  That's up for debate.

So odds are you're lying as well. Why should anyone take you more seriously than the other 37,999+?

Hitler and Christ have nothing in common.  You have stated another absurdity.

Jesus came to bring a sword. Hitler caused WWII. Jesus came to bring division. Hitler made people take sides. Jesus said to kill homosexuals, among others. Hitler did so. Jesus said to pray in private. Hitler did.

It's amazing how many similarities there are between them, isn't it?q

EDIT: I have to get ready to school now, and tomorrow I'm spending most of the day away from home, so I'll only reply in a few hours and then I won't reply for a long time.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:57:12 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #133 on: May 03, 2012, 03:02:10 AM »
Quote
So odds are you're lying as well. Why should anyone take you more seriously than the other 37,999+?

Just as every man must face death alone every man must face this question alone.  What is the truth of Jesus' teachings? 

I don't advise you to listen to me.  I advise you to pray for wisdom and discernment and study the Bible and never give up until you find the truth.  I will help you as much as I am able.

However the fact that you would even compare the Life of Christ with the life of Hitler shows the amount of your unreasonableness.  As long as this is so I see no need for me to do so.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »
Just as every man must face death alone every man must face this question alone.  What is the truth of Jesus' teachings? 

Begging the question. You assume there's a historical Jesus, that he taught something nobody else did, and that there's actually some truth to it.

I don't advise you to listen to me.

Good. I don't advise anyone to listen to you either.

However the fact that you would even compare the Life life of Christ with the life of Hitler shows the amount of your unreasonableness.

I showed you how they are similar. You simply regurgitated this statement every time I did. Show me how they're not the same.

Also, I fixed your typo. Life, like most words, isn't capitalized in the middle of a sentence.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2012, 09:12:15 AM »
Where did God ever promise to protect us from the harm our fellow humans can do to us? Exactly how would he bring that off while still respecting our free will?

My post was obviously nonsense, but only because I often make the mistake of assuming that a god who thought free will was important to me would also, by definition, sort of want to let me live long enough to exercise it.

If I'm dead a birth I can't. If I'm killed by someone else exercising their own free will, my ability to do so ends immediately.

Its like giving a kid the batteries to a new toy and telling him that's all he gets. That the toy is something he'll never have, but that he should appreciate the batteries anyway.

Seems like a silly way to run a universe.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2012, 09:17:32 AM »
Where did God ever promise to protect us from the harm our fellow humans can do to us?

I think that is the point.  Theodicy.  What is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient deity doing letting people hurt each other?  When you are an omnimax god, all the bucks stop with you.

Also, I disagree with your free will definition.  Why is it only "moral" choices?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2012, 10:37:45 AM »
Hilarious to watch Jane ignore the evidence that her god has nothing to do with free will.  Please Jane, then explain how free will works with a constantly interfering god?  Tell me how the pharoah, the egyptians, etc had free will when your god controlled them?  It's so cute to watch someone play pretend that a written medium doesn't exist if it has questions and points she doesn't like.   ;D

and jst, the same claims that if one just prays hard enough, his god will respond.  Sorry, jst, I've prayed sincerely for your god to hele me retain my faith when I was losing it and got nothing.  No wisdom or discernment.  Yuo know, this god in evidently hiding itself, is also screwing with my "free will" in that it is intentionally preventing me from making an informed decision.  Again, so much for the baseless claims of theists. 

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2012, 11:15:31 AM »
Just as every man must face death alone every man must face this question alone.  What is the truth of Jesus' teachings? 

I don't advise you to listen to me.  I advise you to pray for wisdom and discernment and study the Bible and never give up until you find the truth.  I will help you as much as I am able.

However "truth" requires evidence. Which you don't have. That's why there are over 38000 different versions of Christianity. If there were actual truth, there would be evidence that one could point to that would clearly show who is right and who is wrong. So if the bible contains truth and the truth is yours, where is your evidence that you're right?

Why can you only fall back on mindless preaching to prove anything you say? Shouldn't reall truth be stronger than that?

However the fact that you would even compare the Life of Christ with the life of Hitler shows the amount of your unreasonableness.  As long as this is so I see no need for me to do so.

Why not? Jesus proclaimed death on anyone who wouldn't hear his message. Sounds pretty close to Hitler to me. Again why are you so instantly dismissive of the point, and of Lucifer for making it. Shouldn't your truth be able to stand up its detractors? If it really were true of course.
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2012, 12:06:28 PM »
Quote
Strangely enough, that "one truth" is claimed by every denomination of christianity there is. All 38,000+

So 37,999+ must be lying.  According to the Bible the truth is there.  Will one ever find it?  That remains to be seen.  The Bible says that it is possible.

Hitler and Christ have nothing in common.  You have stated another absurdity.
..and you are also lying..  If after 2,000 years the only thing you can agree on collectively as a group of people all studying similar books, and there is 38,000+ of you saying you still haven't 'found the truth in it', then obviously you are lying stating that you have. 
The thing Hitler and Christ have in common is that they both caused massive genocide...
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2012, 02:23:06 PM »
Where did God ever promise to protect us from the harm our fellow humans can do to us? Exactly how would he bring that off while still respecting our free will?

My post was obviously nonsense, but only because I often make the mistake of assuming that a god who thought free will was important to me would also, by definition, sort of want to let me live long enough to exercise it.

This baffles me. Where do you find any support for this position in scripture or in your own experience? Doesn't the daily newspaper alone adequately acquaint you with the horrors humans inflict on other humans? Why would the ability to make moral choices have anything to do with how long you live? The ability to choose to do good rather than evil is a necessary precondition of salvation and only available to mankind. Jesus wasn't sent to the lions and tigers for a reason. They do not exercise free will. They are killers but not murderers. Only man can sink that low and it is only man who can rise far above it.

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Seems like a silly way to run a universe.
If you say so.

Where did God ever promise to protect us from the harm our fellow humans can do to us?

I think that is the point.  Theodicy.  What is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient deity doing letting people hurt each other?  When you are an omnimax god, all the bucks stop with you.
That is the price of giving us freedom and letting us make moral choices. If we do not have free will, then we cannot be free. God could have created us robots who could only do what is right but we would not be free moral agents as we are now. This is an awesome responsibility and the reason not a single one of us will escape judgment.

I will say that the problem of suffering, particularly innocent suffering, is the only argument that I can take seriously that is offered against the existence of God. There is a profound mystery there.

Quote
Why is it only "moral" choices?
What other kinds matter? I am quite certain that God does not care if we prefer vanilla ice cream to chocolate.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2012, 02:36:37 PM »
Quote
I've prayed sincerely for your god to hele me retain my faith when I was losing it and got nothing.

I am very sorry to hear this.  Such a prayer is certainly within the realm of a prayer that God would answer.  I would ask however, if you did anything in addition to praying?  I would also ask if there was something in particular that was damaging your faith?

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However "truth" requires evidence.

I would put forth the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, of which I am not a member, as evidence.  I'm not really sure what evidence would be convincing to you.

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Shouldn't reall truth be stronger than that?

You mean even in the face of so many trying to obscure the truth?  The truth must be strong but not always as plain as the nose on one's face.

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The thing Hitler and Christ have in common is that they both caused massive genocide....

No Jesus didn't.  Jesus never instructed his followers to carry out genocide.  Hitler did.

Quote
If after 2,000 years the only thing you can agree on collectively as a group of people all studying similar books, and there is 38,000+ of you saying you still haven't 'found the truth in it', then obviously you are lying stating that you have.

The Bible shows that the truth is like a light that gets brighter and brighter until the full dawn of day. 

"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day" -- Proverbs 4:18

I propose that the truth was obscured with darkness with the death of Jesus and his apostles. In time, it will be uncovered again.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2012, 02:43:30 PM »
Quote
I will say that the problem of suffering, particularly innocent suffering, is the only argument that I can take seriously that is offered against the existence of God. There is a profound mystery there.

It is my understanding that God is not currently ruling this world but rather he is allowing man a chance to do it himself apart from God.  If God did not allow this suffering then this would support the claim that the world does not need God.  The Bible calls Satan the "ruler of this world" and states that the "whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

Once Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, mankind "struck out on it's own."  At least this is my understanding.  God even told them that they would suffer.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:47:55 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2012, 02:52:44 PM »
jst, Jane, NATHAN:

I just want to make myself clear to you:  All it took for me to repent my religion was reading through this site.  It was the last barrier - Jesus - for my rationalization for religion to be broken.  Science broke everything else.  This site gives clear reasoning as to why these religions are myths..  prayer doesn't work.  Jesus distinctly, on multiple occasions, said it would.  It's just that simple.  When NOTHING HAPPENS, it's pretty clear that we are being DELUSIONAL ABOUT IT...

All I've seen you all do is rationalize with yourselves why things don't happen, why this or that, and it all sounds insane.  Quoting biblical scripture as if it could show these people something is nonsense, especially when they have all studied it astoundingly.  These people know the historical features of these religions, they know all about religions that I never studied to any extent..

What I am saying is, you are reasoning yourselves into things that support your claims.  When I saw this site - I immediately looked for more refutation about god/jesus, and more evidence to the contrary.  I also looked for evidence for god/jesus, and my conclusion was that the evidence for god/jesus was all based on scripture passages that weren't actually evidence for anything, false claims, superstition, or the outright denial of any evidence against what they were preaching.  I have found no factual evidence supporting the god theory.  None.  I have, however, found a multitude of evidence supporting the idea that god is imaginary.  Clearly you all have not done your own research on these matters..

Also, I find it not amusing to point your fingers at these people saying they are not saved, or that you feel you need to save them from anything whatsoever.  According to my previous beliefs, if Jesus was actually saying what was the truth, all these people are already saved..[1]
 1. See my first quote below.  Just as the light would have already reached your finger, Jesus would have already saved everyone, if the afterlife held any sort of truth or Jesus was any sort of truth, etc...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2012, 03:03:18 PM »
I am very sorry to hear this.  Such a prayer is certainly within the realm of a prayer that God would answer.  I would ask however, if you did anything in addition to praying?  I would also ask if there was something in particular that was damaging your faith?
  Oh, the magic spell routine.  What else do I have to do, jst?  Stand on my head?  Recite Jabberwocky backwards?  And golly, jst knows just what God will answer!  The bible and lack of any evidence whatsoever for this god is what destroyed my faith. I know I’ve disappointed you with not giving you a reason to tell me that I’m just “angry” at God.
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I would put forth the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, of which I am not a member, as evidence.  I'm not really sure what evidence would be convincing to you.
Oooh, does this mean that Scientologists are as valid and a “true” as your religion then? 
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No Jesus didn't.  Jesus never instructed his followers to carry out genocide.
Read Luke 19 dear.  And then if you believe the nonsense in Revelation, tell me what happens in there.
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The Bible shows that the truth is like a light that gets brighter and brighter until the full dawn of day.
The bible has been shown to be full of lies and contradictions. So much for any truth in it.  You’ve claimed that some how yoru god isnt’ in charge of the world.  Well, do demonstrate that.  Show me that your claim is true and the claim of a Christian who says that miracles are happening and that everything is God’s will is wrong.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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