Author Topic: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters  (Read 26476 times)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2012, 10:30:13 AM »
truthseekertwo, are you the same truthseeker we’ve had here before? 

The genesis stories contradict each other, the events differing and in different orders.  It makes absolutely no sense to claim that the author would tell the same story and tell it wrong once. 

There’s no reason to think the bible story authors were particularly smart.

I’m assuming you are a Christian.  Your god is shown to be quite an idiot in Genesis, with thinking that Adam would be able to have an aardvark as a “helpmeet”.  It’s not Adam who is having trouble understanding, its your god.  As for your claism about how the tensense screw things up, well, it does and funny how a god couldn’t take that into consideration.  As always this god is limited by the humans who created it.   
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2012, 11:35:11 AM »
First of all the bible, as best we know, was written without chapters and verses.

True.

So originally there was no division between Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 2:1.

I think probably true.

Genesis 1 and 2 was simply the authors account of creation and not two separate accounts.

Not true.  Furthermore, this view is only taken seriously by fundamentalists and literalists.  People who know better understand the bible - specifically the Pentateuch - was written by several people and edited by a couple others. Style, language, genre, topics, theology all point to different authors in different periods. 

For example. It is known that the northern kingdom of Israel worshipped a god called El (or elohim)while the southern kindgom of Judea worshipped a god called yhwh.  We also know both these gods were present in a Canaanite pantheon of gods that included Baal and Asherah.  Not coincidentally, that pantheon was called elohim - literally "the lords".  Yeah, plural.  The people of israel got their hinies whooped by some other middle eastern power (Assyrians perhaps?) and fled to Judea.  The two nations were similar enough that they could become one.  To do that they needed to combine their traditions and myths into one.  So they did. But it wasn't easy and they did not do a very good job of it.

The book of Job has a narrative interrupted by poetry right in the middle of it, for chrissakes. 

   
Here is how I think we should understand Genesis 1 and 2.

You are free to interpret how ever you like.  Unfortunately, the facts are not on your side.

Although the animals were cute and cuddly, the closest thing to Adam was a chimpanzee...

Only if you do not even believe in "micro-evolution". Otherwise, it would have been an ape like basis which evolved into various apes at lighting fast speed after The Flood.

Lastly, it would seem unlikely for the author to contradict himself so soon after generalizing the creation account.

Yes, it would be unlikely.  Which is why only people with emotional investment in it believe it was written by one author. However, it would be possible and likely for two different, but similar stories from neighboring peoples to have contradictions.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2012, 01:36:57 PM »
truthseekertwo, are you the same truthseeker we’ve had here before? 

Nope. Different person.

EDIT: Since he said he'd be out doing, "errands over the next couple of days," I took the liberty to answer to stop any confusion asap. I hope neither of you mind since the question would only be considered directed towards me, if TS2 and I were the same.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:44:23 PM by TruthSeeker »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2012, 09:12:54 AM »
sorry TS, I was mistaking your screen name with that one nitwit in one of the mailbag threads.  my apologies.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2012, 09:13:58 AM »
that one nitwit in one of the mailbag threads

Your specificity is impressive. &)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2012, 09:27:08 AM »
that one nitwit in one of the mailbag threads

Your specificity is impressive. &)

yeah, right after writing that, I thought "velkyn, you are one dumb woman".  ;D 

can't remember the screen name but it did start with "truth".  and I recall some folks, including probably me, who did get TS confused with them. 

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2012, 09:27:56 AM »
can't remember the screen name but it did start with "truth".  and I recall some folks, including probably me, who did get TS confused with them. 

truthsearcher?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2012, 09:28:59 AM »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2012, 12:37:38 PM »
Very funny Grogs.  :)  However, you did hit the nail on the head.  Understanding how to apply A, B and C in this instance was problematic at best.  Following is an explanation of why this verse is so confusing even to scholars.  By the way, it’s not because I want it to be so.   I try to follow this advice…”Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  I think this is good advise whether you believe the bible to be factual or not.  It does no one any good to believe in something that has been proven false.  The key word, here, is proven. 
 
The Revised Standard Version of the bible is considered to be a literal translation of the scriptures.  This means that the translation is a word for word translation as much as the two languages will allow and still be understandable.  Here is what the version records in Gen. 2:19: “So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.”  In the English we would consider this sentence to be present perfect tense.  This is where the problem is.  We read it and understand it in English.  Therefore we conclude that Adam was created before the animals which is in direct conflict with the Gen. 1 account.  Although Hebrew and English have much in common there are other aspects of the two languages that are not in common.  How the tense is communicated is one of them.  English is a tense language meaning that the tense is conveyed in the sentence.  Hebrew is an aspectual language meaning that the same form of the verb can be seen as either past, present, or future depending on the context.

Context can refer to how a word is used in a sentence as well as how a sentence is used in relation to the subject matter which in this case is the creation.  In Gen. 2:19 not only can the context in this case be seen to occur in this sentence alone but it also can be seen in the broader context of the creation account in general.  Some translators seeing this did one of two things to convey the tense of this passage.  If the translation was a literal translation they would most often insert a reference referring back to Gen. 1:24 in the margin.  Or if the translation was liberal (like the NIV) they would add the word “had” to the passage in question as well as a marginal reference to 1:24.  They didn’t do this because they wanted it to be so but because they honestly believed that the Hebrew demanded it and to convey the correct meaning to an English speaking audience. 

The normal Hebrew word order is  verb (V) first, subject (S) second and object (O) last.
In English it is S, V, O.  However, Hebrew also uses the SVO order but when it does it is signifying a change in tense that must be understood by the context.  This is usually done with what is called a qatal verb which also helps to signify a change in meaning.  The placing of the subject ahead of the verb instead of the reverse, is a device used for the purpose of  changing a verb from the perfect into a pluperfect verb.  When a pluperfect is used in a narrative sentence it often signifies an interruption or break in continuity of the narrative.  In other words, the first part of this sentence, “So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air…, is not connected directly to the second part in order of occurrence , …and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.”
Rather it refers the first part of this sentence back to an early occurrence. In this case, Genesis 1:24, which is the second use of context, the context of the creation account as a whole.  But that is not all. 

As I have stated, placing the subject before the verb suggests the pluperfect (or prior occurrence) instead of the perfect (present occurrence).  In Hebrew it is not the verb that changes but the word order that changes the verb and this in turn conveys a disconnection or discontinuity from the narrative.  When this happens the “waw” conjunctive (the word “and”) in the sentence becomes the “waw” disjunctive (but, so, now, etc.).  The NIV translates this perfectly.  “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field…”  Here you have not only the “waw” disjunctive (now) but you have the past tense “had formed” as suggested by the reverse word order (SVO).

To be fair, however, I will have to say that the qatal verb is not present in this verse.  The general consensus has been that to have a SVO word order it must be accompanied by a qatal verb.  In this passage a vayyiqtol verb is used.  A vayyiqtol verb generally marks chronological succession.  In the case of 2:19 that would mean that the first part of the sentence is connected to the second part.  However, the consensus about the vayyiqtol verb has been that it must have a VSO word order.  Neither of these two conditions exist in 2:19.  Studies that have been done over the past several years have looked for and found examples of vayyiqtol verbs connected to reversed word orders (SVO) that speak of past events.  (See:http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_1995_46_1_08_Collins_WAYYIQTOL_Pluperfect.PDF)

That’s their opinion and it may hold water in time.  However, I have my own opinion.
This is the way I see how the problem may be worked out.  The word order (SVO) suggests an event that already happened (which is supported by the context of the whole creation account) but the vayyiqtol verb tells us that the past event is connected to naming of the animals.  The reason the vayyiqtol verb was used with the reverse word order may be because it all happened on the same day.  In other words, the two events of forming the animals and naming them were too close together to warrant a qatal verb.  The only thing missing in this verse is the creation of man between the forming of the animals and Adam naming them.  The author didn’t feel the need to do that because he already established that fact in chapter 1 (only 22 verses ago). 
 :)

Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2012, 01:35:43 PM »
I try to follow this advice…”Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  I think this is good advise whether you believe the bible to be factual or not.  It does no one any good to believe in something that has been proven false.
No evidence of your god or any of the essential events of the bible.  Also, what is good, ts2?  Your god says that genocide is good, that slavery is good, that killign children is good, as long as they forward its plans. 

As far as I understand, all bibles claim that they are the most literal.  The RSV, the KJV or NKJV, NAB, etc each has its promoters as the most accurate version of what their god "really meant". 

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Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2012, 05:04:27 PM »
Hello velkyn,

Thank you for responding.

I wasn’t trying to provide evidence for God or for events of the bible beyond Genesis 1 and 2.  My posts where in response to Joe who started this thread.  He said he had yet to get an intelligent reply from Christians to the contradictions in Gen. 1&2 .   I was giving him and others (yourself included) my opinion on this subject.  As to whether or not it’s an intelligent reply is a matter of perspective.

Your sole question to me was, “what is good?”  My answer is very little.  But that is not God’s fault, as I understand you imply.  Although God allows genocide, slavery and the killing of children and on special occasions sanctions it, it’s all for the good of mankind.
When I say for the good of mankind, I mean all of mankind.  I can explain if you would like.

There are three types of bible translations: word-for-word (or literal), thought-for-thought (or liberal) and paraphrase.  A word-for-word translation attempts to translate the Hebrew and Greek into a word of similar meaning in English.  Three of the translations you mentioned, the RSV, KJV and NKJV are of  this type.   

The thought-for-thought translation expresses the meaning of a sentence into a similar meaning in English.  This type of translation is not as useful as the word-for-word in
doctrinal study but can be used as an aid.  The NAB, NIV and NRSV are translations of this type.

Lastly, the paraphrased translation presents the bible in simple everyday language that is easy to read and doesn’t worry about word-for-word or thought-for-thought expressions of the original language.  Examples of this type are the TLB and the NLT.   All translations are just that, translations.  They all contain some errors in translation. 

I know of some religions that claim that the KJV is an inspired version.  As far as I am concerned, no versions are inspired.  The scriptures in the original languages are thought by most to be inspired. 

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2012, 05:29:04 PM »
As to whether or not it’s an intelligent reply is a matter of perspective. <snip>
perspective from some fairly intelligent intellectuals, mind you..
Your sole question to me was, “what is good?”  My answer is very little.  But that is not God’s fault, as I understand you imply.  Although God allows genocide, slavery and the killing of children and on special occasions sanctions it, it’s all for the good of mankind.
Bullshit; liar; fool.  you're an idiot for even saying this...
When I say for the good of mankind, I mean all of mankind.  I can explain if you would like.
Yes, please explain to me how the genocide of the Jews back in ww1&2 was 'good for all mankind'.  Or any genocide for that matter.  Greater kill?  We're not lions or chimpanzees with rabies or zombies eating brains.  (However I would like to much on your brain - might be tasty..)
There are three types of bible translations: word-for-word (or literal), thought-for-thought (or liberal) and paraphrase.  A word-for-word translation attempts to translate the Hebrew and Greek into a word of similar meaning in English.  Three of the translations you mentioned, the RSV, KJV and NKJV are of  this type.   

The thought-for-thought translation expresses the meaning of a sentence into a similar meaning in English.  This type of translation is not as useful as the word-for-word in
doctrinal study but can be used as an aid.  The NAB, NIV and NRSV are translations of this type.

Lastly, the paraphrased translation presents the bible in simple everyday language that is easy to read and doesn’t worry about word-for-word or thought-for-thought expressions of the original language.  Examples of this type are the TLB and the NLT.   All translations are just that, translations.  They all contain some errors in translation.  They contain errors in logic and defy all scientific knowledge..
I corrected that for you..
I know of some religions that claim that the KJV is an inspired version.  As far as I am concerned, no versions are inspired.  The scriptures in the original languages are thought by most to be inspired.
Inspired by people that wanted power in this place, or forced control.  Not meant to be translated into english by idiots that would rather believe in fallacies and magical tales instead of reality and science..
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Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2012, 07:40:12 PM »
Hello jeremy0

I apology profusely for my poorly chosen words and for any offence that I may of caused you or anyone else on this forum.  I didn’t mean that genocide was good or any other atrocity for that matter.  What I meant is that God is going to work for our good, all the ills that befall us.  For the most part, God has nothing to do with the calamity that befalls the world but it does not make him happy to see people suffer.  He does allow it, however, but for a good reason.  The times that God intervenes in human affairs is few and far between.  I am speaking of  the world as a whole and not those who trust in him.  At times God does intervene and wipes out entire cities like Sodom and Gomorrah.  It pains him to do so but in this case it was for their own good and not God’s.  If after reading this post you still want my explanation for the sufferings of the world please let me know and I will be glad to provide one.   Just give me a few days to prepare.  If I don’t hear from you I will not write one.  Again, my sincere apologies.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2012, 10:02:15 PM »
I apology profusely for my poorly chosen words and for any offence that I may of caused you or anyone else on this forum.
Apology accepted.  Now we can discuss this..
Quote
I didn’t mean that genocide was good or any other atrocity for that matter.  What I meant is that God is going to work for our good, all the ills that befall us.  For the most part, God has nothing to do with the calamity that befalls the world but it does not make him happy to see people suffer.  He does allow it, however, but for a good reason.  The times that God intervenes in human affairs is few and far between.  I am speaking of  the world as a whole and not those who trust in him.
At least we agree on the matter of genocide now... (however)
Quote
At times God does intervene and wipes out entire cities like Sodom and Gomorrah. 
God can commit genocide and that makes it ok?
Quote
<snip>  If after reading this post you still want my explanation for the sufferings of the world please let me know and I will be glad to provide one.
I would like to hear this debate further..

Also, it is unnecessary to apologize to a person like myself.  I'm fairly humble for my part.  I tend to view everyone as equals.  Just as I called you an idiot for your statements, I keep in mind that I am also one at times as well.  Perhaps I was wrong at lashing out at you.  If I were your god, I would save everyone since I would already know how, and there would be no need for any suffering whatsoever.  I have better ways already for you to learn what I want people to learn..

I was defending the intelligence of this forum community, nothing further, and your apology was basically to these people.  Most people in my life owe me some sort of apology, and I never get it.  At least you have a decent heart, and know when to retract or show positive emotion.  So from now on I will treat you with some dignity..  Thanks, and please share your point of view - I wouldn't mind arguing or agreeing if it makes sense to me, but I will defend my point of view on the subject. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2012, 07:25:33 AM »
What I meant is that God is going to work for our good, all the ills that befall us.  For the most part, God has nothing to do with the calamity that befalls the world but it does not make him happy to see people suffer.  He does allow it, however, but for a good reason.  The times that God intervenes in human affairs is few and far between.  I am speaking of  the world as a whole and not those who trust in him.  At times God does intervene and wipes out entire cities like Sodom and Gomorrah.  It pains him to do so but in this case it was for their own good and not God’s

Bold mine.  How could you possibly know those things?  It seems to me you assume god to be good and working for our benefit.  Then, you carry that assumption with you into your reading of the OT. 

And how was the destruction of S&G "for their own good"?  You are saying it was for their own good that they were killed and ostensibly sent to hell.  There was no lesson learned, no "teaching moment", no opportunity to reform or repent.  How is that for their good?  It seems to me it was only for punishment.  Which is to say, to satisfy yhwh.  So it was for yhwh's good, not the Sodomites.

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2012, 07:50:29 AM »
sorry TS, I was mistaking your screen name with that one nitwit in one of the mailbag threads.  my apologies.

Nothing to apologize for, in my opinion. You asked for clarification, then not wanting to potentially wait days for a response, you proceded to respond to the post. Forum and phone tag both suck. Best to nip it in the bud.  ;D


Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2012, 11:16:30 AM »
Hello jeremy0

I apology profusely for my poorly chosen words and for any offence that I may of caused you or anyone else on this forum.  I didn’t mean that genocide was good or any other atrocity for that matter.  What I meant is that God is going to work for our good, all the ills that befall us.  For the most part, God has nothing to do with the calamity that befalls the world but it does not make him happy to see people suffer.  He does allow it, however, but for a good reason.  The times that God intervenes in human affairs is few and far between.  I am speaking of  the world as a whole and not those who trust in him.  At times God does intervene and wipes out entire cities like Sodom and Gomorrah.  It pains him to do so but in this case it was for their own good and not God’s.  If after reading this post you still want my explanation for the sufferings of the world please let me know and I will be glad to provide one.   Just give me a few days to prepare.  If I don’t hear from you I will not write one.  Again, my sincere apologies.

Here we go again !

Cart before horse. You believe these things to be true--its an article of faith for you. But you most certainly do not know these things to be true, so please knock it off with the language indicating that you think you do. Can you first prove conclusively that a god exists ? No.

So, if and only when, you can direct us to the evidence of a god's existence to back up your claims, will we then take a serious look at this deity and consider what we will do next. I truly wish this supposed god would reveal itself and shut you faithheads up--and make you all redundant. A smart god would have done that long ago anyways--with all ineptitude you people constantly display.

By the way, and if you were to be correct, isn't it marvelous--and aren't you just so special--that you are privy to this vital information on the nature of a god and yet billions have not been so far ? 

But, if you choose to try and explain the relentless suffering and anguish in our world, then we can all see it coming with your explanation: garden--temptation of rib woman by talking snake--free will--fall--curse--worldwide suffering, anguish, and hardship. In other words--our own damn fault.

But knock yourself out man.

Quote
I apology profusely for my poorly chosen words and for any offence that I may of caused you or anyone else on this forum

May have ? You did offend us all, and did so by insulting our intelligence with trying to get us to think true such baseless and immoral nonsense. Your ideas of a god are only your opinions and done so with a mix of your own version of morality and drenched then with your emotions. That's it and only it. The god-idea is a primitive idea that was birthed by credulity, ignorance, and the fears of the ancients and our earliest ancestors.

The christian religion is a harmful and distorted knock off of earlier pagan religions of the east and so you better just get used to it TST. Civilizations, spirit and ritual worship, flood stories, virgin births, and moral philosophy long predate your Hebrews/Israelites and their rib story, so you better open up your eyes and mind to those facts and start reading what has historical truth without fictional embellishments, and value !.

Your religion is nothing but a nasty plagiarism. You should be embarrassed to call it your own.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2012, 03:00:04 PM »
Thanks jeremy0,

Hello screwtape.  You and jeremy0 have similar questions so I will try to answer both of
you at once on this one point.  As to how I could possibly know these things, it is written
in God’s revealed word.  However, although the truth is in plain sight, it is also somewhat hidden.  It is like a bunch of letter O’s arranged in rows and columns with a letter C imbedded in them. (See illustration below)  The O’s are God’s word in general and therefore truth as well but the C is God’s truth on a particular point, say God’s love for mankind.  If we are looking for another point of truth, say about hell, the letter that was a C turns back into an O (or God’s word in general) and one of the other O’s on this page will turn into the letter C (the truth about hell) and so on.  Of course the page of O’s would be much larger and more C’s would be scatter among them as in reading the bible.  This is how God reveals his truth yet hides it.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The scripture that reveals this truth is a double edge sword.  It tells us how God reveals truth and hides it the same way. (Isa. 28:9-13 NKJV)

I don’t assume God to be good or that he is working for our benefit. (Isa. 25:7-9; Jer. 29:11)

How was it good for the people of S&G to be destroyed?  God is like a father who loves his children.  I am a father and you may be too.  As fathers we punish our children for wrong doing by grounding, spanking and loss of privileges.  Afterwards, we try to make them understand why they were punished.  God is no different only better except he has one option we don’t.  He can kill them.  It sounds cruel, I know.  But to God it may be more like grounding (no pun intended).  Sexual immorality has been in the world since near the beginning of creation.  However, Sodom and all the cities of the plain had reached the pinnacle of sexual sin.  Disease was probably rampant with no cures and relationships destroyed.  With no cure for diseases their babies were increasingly being
born with the same diseases.  They were a nest of sin and disease that not only harmed themselves but others as well, as in the case of Lot and his family.  And because their sexual immorality was an addiction, they couldn’t stop.  Just look at the AID’s epidemic in South African.  So God in his love and mercy decided to end theirs lives.  But they are not lost.  They are just dead awaiting a resurrection to be judged. They will be found wanting for sure but Christ had not yet died for the sins of mankind.  Here is the thing; God has said that all sins (repented of) will be forgiven man except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  Sin could not be forgiven until the death of Christ.  The Sodomites cannot be judged until they are resurrected.  Their eyes will be opened to the truth and most will repent and accept the sacrifice of Christ.  Those who don’t will be cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed and not suffer.  God does not do this lightly for he desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).







Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2012, 05:05:59 PM »
It is like a bunch of letter O’s arranged in rows and columns with a letter C imbedded in them. (See illustration below)
I recognized the 'C' in your nice little puzzle almost immediately.  I can tell you this - I vastly studied the preachings of Jesus..  I will say this - if you, yourself, wants to know what is 'hidden from you', first you need to see that thee correct way to translate Jesus is to look at what he says from his own supposed perspective (remember - doing only what is good, saying only good, etc.)  Then your 'hidden C's' will be revealed to you, as his message starts to make sense instead of sounding like insanity...

However, there are pieces of his message that don't fit in this manner, which is the only correct way to translate jesus' message - Anyone that does not hate mother/father/neighbor/brother/sister cannot be my desciple.  When people think I came to save them, they are mistaken - I came to spread bloodshed, fire, and war.  I want it to be brother against brother, father against son, a divided house...
These are also (approximately) things that Jesus said.  It shows that he was just a man, preaching for a better tomorrow, if people were to 'wake up' to his message as he wanted..  If that happens, indeed you seem 'enlightened'.  However, it doesn't make him a God, for obvious fallacies in the story..

Quote
The scripture that reveals this truth is a double edge sword.  It tells us how God reveals truth and hides it the same way. (Isa. 28:9-13 NKJV)

I don’t assume God to be good or that he is working for our benefit. (Isa. 25:7-9; Jer. 29:11)
Now you retract from previous arguments due to the 'evidence' presented here by other members..

Let's look at S&G: it was said God turned a lady into salt.  The two cities were destroyed during a storm.  Nothing was ever able to live in that location again.  The location was historically, approximately, documented.  According to these puzzle pieces, the only two places I can think of that have too much salt in it for anything to survive is the Dead Sea and also the Great Salt Lake.  Since Salt Lake is out of the question as a geographic location for S&G, that leaves the Dead Sea as its currently resting-in-peices place..
If you want further discussion on S&G, start here - http://www.sfbsc.com/about-the-dead-sea[2]  Multiple stories in this one article, even relating to the Dead Sea and religious history...  S&G may not have actually been destroyed, but in reality a made-up story in order to scare people into thinking God can kill you if he wants..

Case in point - when, in modern recorded history, has god killed or destroyed anything?  Also, when was the last time somebody saw an 'Angel'?  Latter case with Joseph Smith I don't count - he was insane..

Quote
<snip>Just look at the AID’s epidemic in South African.  So God in his love and mercy decided to end theirs lives. 
So you are saying that God should 'kill off most Africans due to an AIDs epedemic?  I am waiting for a response to this as well..
Quote
But they are not lost.  They are just dead awaiting a resurrection to be judged.
I reject the theory of judgement due to obvious issues - if God intends to forgive all men sins, but yet he still has to 'judge man based on their actions in life', or 'judged based on what is done', then he most certainly does not intend to save anyone.  If I were an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful God and Creator, I have a better way to save everyone than have them live short (or stillborn) lives and then 'judge them based on whatever they due regardless of cruelty, invalid punishment, or any other harm that was done to the person that would be causal in that person taking future actions..'

If all it takes is for rampant humping to cause God to hate you, kill you, love you and then judge you to hell (If God decided to kill them, I doubt they have much of a chance), then I would consider the majority of all human life damned.  As that is not the case, and I could further argue to the contrary, and was keeping God mostly out of it since Jesus was the main topic of this particular post by me, but I will wait for further rebuttal that God kills and punishes and then condemns and that is somehow a 'righteous thing'... :D


[1] No righteous or relatively good man would want to kill anyone, let alone send them to their enemies or a pit of hellfire for eternal suffering, or even a day of suffering.  That is called torture, and torture is in no means righteous in any way or form.

[2] It is also possible, albeit far-fetched, that earth crust displacement caused the 'sinking' of these cities of Lot, as described in the link that I posted here later down describing history and the Hebrew Bible, and their way of explaining the 'phenomina' was that 'God did it due to our sins'...

[3] God causing/intending/performing acts of violence such as killing/torturing/causing suffering strikes a nerve with me, hence my heated emotion during this discussion.  I'm respecting my statement of treating you with dignity, however.  If not, I'd be very picky..
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 05:59:41 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2012, 06:24:09 PM »
Hello gonegolfing,

You are right.  I can not prove conclusively that God exists.  But you can.  No one can prove the existence of God to others.  He must be experienced on an individual level.  No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44).  Do I believe in the existence of God?  Yes!  How do I know that he exists?  Through personal experience.  God is a personal God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  God is no respecter of persons but loves all of mankind equally.  Has God called you?  If you are reading these posts then he is calling.  It is up to you to answer the call and have your own personal experience that will prove God to you.  “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:6).

As I have said, God is no respecter of persons but loves all equally.  If I possess knowledge that you lack, God holds me responsible for the truth he has given me.  If I sit on it, I make myself  irresponsible.   The billions you speak of will have their time at God’s choosing.   Satan is ultimately responsible for sin but we have our responsible for sin as well.  Sin (our sin) is the reason for all the ills of the world.

I don’t claim to know everything.  For as long as I have set myself to know the truth, I am still learning.   It is true that I hold a lot of opinions but my position on that has been to  “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  If I am wrong on something and it can be proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I will change my view.  There is no value in believing in something that is false.

Your are right about Christianity being harmful especially when used by evil men to further their own aims.  You are also right that Christianity has incorporated pagan practices into religion.  Both are wrong.  But that is not God’s fault. Here is what God instructed Israel to do:  "When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'  You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it (Deut. 12:29-32)

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2012, 06:47:46 PM »
No one can prove the existence of God to others.  He must be experienced on an individual level.  No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44).  Do I believe in the existence of God?  Yes!  How do I know that he exists?  Through personal experience.  God is a personal God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  God is no respecter of persons but loves all of mankind equally.  Has God called you?  If you are reading these posts then he is calling.  It is up to you to answer the call and have your own personal experience that will prove God to you. 

Can you tell me what the fundamental difference would be for someone who said this about your God and someone who said this about any other of the thousands of gods that have come before yours? 

Also, if you believe personal experiences to be valid ways to determine the truth, then what do you say to the fact that personal experiences can be modified drastically simply with chemical input? 

As I have said, God is no respecter of persons but loves all equally.

What real world evidence do you have to back this up?  I'm not talking about the bible; I'm talking real world evidence.  And if you find you can not provide that, and that I could provide you with ample evidence that good and bad things happen all the time in the world, then why would anyone form the opinion that there is this powerful being out there that loves all of us?  It doesn't make any sense at all. 

I don’t claim to know everything.  For as long as I have set myself to know the truth, I am still learning.   It is true that I hold a lot of opinions but my position on that has been to  “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  If I am wrong on something and it can be proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I will change my view.  There is no value in believing in something that is false.

Alright then.  Let's talk about the most important tenant of your religion... the resurrection of Jesus.  Now, given that the bible actually says that if Jesus is not risen, then your faith is in vain, what solid evidence do you have that the events of the resurrection actually took place?  Keep in mind, you said you are looking for the truth here, right?  The bible is the ONLY contemporary source that claims Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later.  There are no outside sources, no extra eyewitness testimonies, no tomb to examine, no cross to look at, no body to dissect.  We do not know who wrote the gospel stories, nor do we know who wrote a good many of the other books in the bible as well.  We also know that people do not (not ever) rise from the dead after 3 days.

Given that information, if one is looking for the truth, is it more likely that the events took place as described in the gospel accounts, or that they simply never happened and they were made up?  Again, I am going with the notion that you are looking for truth here.  Do people rise from the dead after 3 days?  No.  Do people make up stories?  Yes.  Which is more likely true?  Please be honest with yourself here. 

If I wrote a book that said my great great grandfather rose from the dead after 3 days, would you think I was making it up or that it actually happened if all I could give you was my personal testimony on it?  If you answer that one differently, please explain why you did so. 

Your are right about Christianity being harmful especially when used by evil men to further their own aims.  You are also right that Christianity has incorporated pagan practices into religion.  Both are wrong.  But that is not God’s fault.

If God has the power to stop it with a single thought, but doesn't, what does that mean to you?  Could that not be a good reason to think maybe God really isn't there? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2012, 07:29:10 PM »
I'll add my input to this as well...
He must be experienced on an individual level.  No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). 
I used to think this - that God 'draws you in'.  What is actually happening is you are searching for what you are looking for, you may find something that confirms your beliefs, and this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that God had something to do with it.  The fact that you experience God invisibly confirms what these people are saying - you have still no evidence.  Again, I used to say similar things.  Now I see my flaws in statements such as these..
Quote
God is a personal God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  God is no respecter of persons but loves all of mankind equally
See bolded.  These two things cannot be in co-existence, especially when dealing with a higher-intellect or 'deity'...
Quote
Has God called you?  If you are reading these posts then he is calling.  It is up to you to answer the call and have your own personal experience that will prove God to you.  “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:6).
I will retract on my previous restrictments - you are an idiot.  The fact that people are reading this is because they have interest in the discussion.  It is no evidence that you are having a personal experience with God.  If you pray to god, you are christian.  If god answers you, you are insane...
The fact is, nobody has ever had a personal experience with God that 'proved Him to me'.  Again, I'll point to the fact that I once thought these things - does that mean I have 'tasted the fruit and am now turning away?'  No.  It means I see the flaws in statements such as these - again - no factual evidence except a self-fulfilling prophecy to believe in something you already wanted to believe in..
Quote
<snip for repetitiveness> If I possess knowledge that you lack, God holds me responsible for the truth he has given me.  If I sit on it, I make myself  irresponsible.   
This is actually the correct way to 'save people' - through understanding and reasoning - giving them something you lack.  Something I am trying to do right now.  I find it particularly interesting that these atheists on this forum understand your religion better than you do..  That being said, I'll point to your earlier argument that an all-powerful god with which everything is possible, still relies on mercilessly killing and betraying people to extend his 'salvation strategy'.  I ought to be your god in this case, since I am better than your god, and more people would be saved with me.[1]
Quote
The billions you speak of will have their time at God’s choosing.   Satan is ultimately responsible for sin but we have our responsible for sin as well.  Sin (our sin) is the reason for all the ills of the world.
If satan is the cause of all sin, there again is no reason for judgement or damnation or destruction or killing.  You don't understand what you are saying.  Also, Satan is no more real than the idea of God.  In fact, at least through multiple dimensions or realities there exists the possibility for higher forces than we know in our own existence.  But again, there is nothing that says a free thinker and a free mind is condemned for not believing that this is possible with our current knowledge.  Additionally, we are now claiming belief in things we cannot experience, see, understand, or study..  no evidence.

Also, if I were to kill this imaginary Satan with my powers, would you then agree that you will no longer 'sin'?  Also, please explain your definition of 'sin'..[2]

Quote
For as long as I have set myself to know the truth, I am still learning.   It is true that I hold a lot of opinions but my position on that has been to  “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  If I am wrong on something and it can be proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I will change my view.  There is no value in believing in something that is false.
I love it how Christians always put 'For' in front of what they say to make it sound more religious..   ;D
Yes, there is no value in believing something that is false.  Since you have not made any case for your argument that is valid in any way except with 'words from the Bible', and there is no evidence supporting your claim as I have offered, (see my previous response to Hebrews and Lot, and what you stated), then I would say I have already proven to you that you should change your view.  I see nothing wrong, however, in you believing in a pixie-spreader after this discussion, because apparently you believe what you want because you want to, and not because it has valid supporting logical reason..
 :o

Quote
<snip>You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it (Deut. 12:29-32)
Here, you are falling for the old, scare tactic.  This statement is intended to scare people into believing, and doing what the author tells you to do.  Additionally, I would like to point out that an all-loving God as you stated, would not 'hate abominations' for any logical reason.  There are no abominations, there are just variations.  You could say I am an abomination for having an injury to my face - and then I would call you an asshole, retard, and biggot for putting me down.

Additionally, regarding this discussion, I would like to bring your God to justice for the 'damnation, suffering, torture, hatred, wickedness, and biggotry of all the people I gave a shit about'.  That would be an interesting court case..

I would like to further my explanation to include the story of santa claus..
Santa Loved all the children equally, and gives all the good children gifts, and gives the hated, naughty children lumps of coal.  Now, how is this story any different from your story of God and Satan?

I'll also add this: we have proven, through physics, that traveling backwards in time is impossible - it is a paradox.  We have shown and verified that you can travel forward in time.  But, this is pointless, as you cannot then go back...

That being said - how does satan or god accomplish the art of causality in people 'sinning' and 'doing good or having a personal experience with god', when there are, what, 6bln people on earth today, and according to the bible every one of them sins multiple times a day, every day, and has God's influence on them all day, every day?  Do you see that this is impossible?  Time would have to not exist then, for just god and satan.  It defies physics.  What more proof can I give you?  The fact that God or Satan influences our lives is a paradox of science and reasoning..

[1] I say this because with the claims you make, you refer to the bible, we have proven you wrong through reasoning and history so far, and you still accept it with undeniable fallacies.  The fact of this makes you blind.  I will quote Einstein: 'peace can only be brought about through common understanding'.  It does not take genocide or mass-murder to bring about something I want.  Einstein also said 'religion without science is blind'.  You would do well to listen to reason before making bold statements about your 'unrespectful God'...

[2] I hope you can see the pun in this statement - I keep laughing at the people that say 'protect yourself against satan at these end of times', and look to people as if they were satan himself just because they seem like 'good people that are actually wolves in sheep-skin clothing'.  You kind of people are so blind it is ridiculous.  Also, I was claiming to have supernatural powers.  This is obviously false.  Also, you would still sin even if I got rid of your 'cause of sin'.  An invisible, non-existent red dude with horns doesn't magically cause everybody all around the world to sin every day.  It is your own actions.  This is akin to saying Santa Claus delivers presents to all the little boys and girls across the globe in a flying cart in one single night..  This is putting the blame of your own wrongdoings on something that doesn't exist to make you feel better about having done it.  That said, even some 'sin' is a completely natural thing to do, and its suppression is a dangerous thing to enforce on people...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 08:54:10 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2012, 07:48:08 AM »
As to how I could possibly know these things, it is written in God’s revealed word. 

I don't think it is.  I mean, some of the things you have said about god are directly contradicted by scripture.  For example, you said "God has nothing to do with the calamity that befalls the world".  But in Isaiah 45:7 yhwh says "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things".  Now, it depends on what bible you use, but that can also be translated as "I created Good and Evil".  Either way you choose, though, it contradicts what you said.

In addition, I do not see how an omnipotent being cannot have everything to do with events, either good or bad. If you are omnipotent and omniscient, the buck stops with you. 

Other things you have said, you just have no way of knowing.  Like, how god feels or when god is intervening.  For all you know, I am moved by god to intervene with you right now, trying to set your misguided beliefs aright.  You might object, but you have no basis for it.


However, although the truth is in plain sight, it is also somewhat hidden.

Why?  You use the father analogy in your post.  Let's stick with that.  Are the rules you give to your kids cryptic, hidden and inscrutable?  Or are they clear, in plain language and understandable to them?  If the former, for what purpose?  How does it serve them for the rules to be in secret code?

 
I don’t assume God to be good or that he is working for our benefit. (Isa. 25:7-9; Jer. 29:11)

I have not idea what idea you are trying to communicate.  The Isaiah verses are cryptic and out of context.  Jeremiah seems to indicate yhwh is responsible for everything because there is a "plan".  To me that means fate, which means no free will, which means we are just a puppet show being played out.  Which means it is monstrously unjust for anyone to be sent to eternal torture because their choices were never their own.

How was it good for the people of S&G to be destroyed?  God is like a father who loves his children.  I am a father and you may be too.  As fathers we punish our children for wrong doing by grounding, spanking and loss of privileges.

I understand what you are saying.  This is a common xian meme.  However, I think you have not thought this through.  After you have punished your children, they learned a lesson.  They live on to apply that lesson.  If you simply killed them, as yhwh did, they may have learned a lesson, but it would have been pointless since they would not have been able to apply the lesson.  What good is a lesson if you are dead moments after you learn it?

He can kill them.  It sounds cruel, I know. 

It sounds cruel because it is cruel.  And unjust.

However, Sodom and all the cities of the plain had reached the pinnacle of sexual sin.

That is not scriptual, strictly speaking.  That is the interpretation of your perverted mind.  Think about sexual sin a lot, do you?

Disease was probably rampant with no cures and relationships destroyed. 

Neither is this scriptural.  You have an active imagination.

So God in his love and mercy decided to end theirs lives.

In his love and mercy, he killed them?  ZOMG! Hilarious!  Straight out of Monty Python! 

You are one warped individual. 

But they are not lost.  They are just dead awaiting a resurrection to be judged. They will be found wanting for sure...

So in what way have they learned anything?  How are they able to apply their lesson? 


 
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2012, 09:46:23 AM »
Nice.

To teach them a lesson as loving father, he kills them. Then they sleep for thousands of years. They may know that god punished them, but really, would they know why?

List the last 5 major Earthquakes. Tell us what sins the people commited to get that loving punishment. If you don't know, how would the dead?
 Then fast foward to judgement. Since they were dead, the never had a chance to learn from thier mistakes or sins. They also never had a chance to repent. Then they get to stand before god:

God: Hey Sinner!
Sinner: Yes.
God: It says here you looked lustfully at your bro's wife right before the Earthquake, I made to punish you for your sins. Since you never repented of that sin, you must burn in Hell for ALL eternity!
Sinner: Wait! I didn't have a chance...
God: BURN! BURN! BURN!
Sinner: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

A way of describing this scenario is Double jeopardy. Another words, you pay punishment for the same crime(s) twice. Only a unethincal immoral evil bastard would do such a thing.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 09:49:15 AM by TruthSeeker »

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2012, 10:59:02 AM »
TST:

Quote
Hello gonegolfing,

You are right.  I can not prove conclusively that God exists.  But you can.  No one can prove the existence of God to others.  He must be experienced on an individual level.  No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44).  Do I believe in the existence of God?  Yes!  How do I know that he exists?  Through personal experience.  Has God called you?  If you are reading these posts then he is calling.  It is up to you to answer the call and have your own personal experience that will prove God to you.

Your admission that you cannot prove a god exists pretty much shows us that your here to preach to us. I'm not sure if your aware or not, but most atheists here were former long times theists and some with, or the equivalent of, seminary training. Your going to be "preaching to the choir" so to speak. It's against forum rules as well. ;)

We can believe anything we can perceive of, through the personal experience claim. However, personal and anecdotal experiences are irrelevant when you're trying to prove something such as the supernatural objectively. Such claims demand evidence--clear, current, reliable, unambiguous, and definitive proof for the human senses to experience and observe. I don't for one second buy into the claim that an all powerful spirit god couldn't make itself temporally perceivable to us--all powerfulness would enable it to do so quite easily in my estimation. And--you must remember--that your god of the bible supposedly made multiple visible appearances to people.

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The billions you speak of will have their time at God’s choosing.   Satan is ultimately responsible for sin but we have our responsible for sin as well.  Sin (our sin) is the reason for all the ills of the world.

You've exonerated the creator of sin. You cannot do that. If such an entity were to exist, God--not satan--is responsible for all sin in our world. An omniscient god knows in advance what will occur at all times and places. Who created satan ? god. Who knew in advance that satan would "fall" ? god. Who knew in advance that satan would deceive the rib woman ? god. Who could have aborted this disastrous plan then ? god......but it did not. God knowingly create sin and rebellion as a part of its plan and that billions of his creation would suffer eternal torture as a result of this foreknowledge. In my mind that malevolent, utterly irresponsible, selfish, and unjust.

And don't forget as well that bible god itself claims in its book to be a jealous god and does in fact create evil.

It's estimated that since our earliest ancestors there have been more than 100 Billion humans that have existed on the planet. According to the scriptures--and you know they are there--the majority of humanity will live in eternal torture..... Is this a good plan ? Is this the best plan that an infinitely intelligent and loving and merciful god can come up with. Would you kill or torture your own children for lack of love and disobedience. Could you allow your mind to be so callous as to damn your children forever for such finite and harmless to you infractions ? No you could not TST.

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I don't claim to know everything.  For as long as I have set myself to know the truth, I am still learning.   It is true that I hold a lot of opinions but my position on that has been to  “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:21).  If I am wrong on something and it can be proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I will change my view.  There is no value in believing in something that is false.

Yes, and isn't that the crux of your problem ? You want to prove the truth of the god-idea, but confess that you cannot do so. Do you want that which is only good for you ? Or do you want that which is right and honest ? I know you want the latter, and so in doing the opposite you not only contradict yourself, but you waste your life and harm your integrity by being in such a position.

This isn't about you being wrong--But about accepting the facts. The fact is, that there is zero current evidence for the existence of the supernatural. You don't have to change your view, it's already been changed for you and has been done so by refutation and lack of evidence. "The view" has been defeated as having meaningful value and solid empirical ground to stand on, so all you are is a fearful holdout of an unproved idea that has acted for the most part throughout history as nothing but pernicious and manipulative meme.


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Your are right about Christianity being harmful especially when used by evil men to further their own aims.  You are also right that Christianity has incorporated pagan practices into religion.  Both are wrong.  But that is not God’s fault.

Of course such behaviour is not a god's fault--as a god is yet to be proved to exist, and so how could blame be placed on something for which there is zero evidence ?

You've allowed the structure of the god-idea to disable your ability to understand just how important evidence is to truth. Faith does not, and could never prove truth. I have "faith" or reasonable expectations that the sun will rise tomorrow and do so because of my observation of the hard evidence and the experience that I have had with the sun itself. Not only do I think in my mind there is a sun, but the fact that it has burned the shit out of human skin and blinded many is some of the hard evidence that I need to know that my thinking and perceptions of the sun are objectively true.

Some of your statements are not only unfounded, but quite disturbing as well, and you people wonder why we get strident and deem the most of you with at least mental abnormalities and at most all out mental illness ?

You may not like those labels, but tough luck there Skippy. You bring it all upon yourself.   
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 11:06:17 AM by gonegolfing »
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2012, 11:44:29 AM »
Has God called you?  If you are reading these posts then he is calling.

I do not understand this^.  What do you mean?  please explain.


“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:6).

This^ too.  I do not understand how to have faith in god before I believe god exists. 

I understand having faith.   I have faith.  Lots of it.  I have faith in my wife, my parents, my siblings.  I have faith I will have a job tomorrow.  I have faith the sun will rise in approximately 17 hours.  I have faith in Derek Jeter. 

But my faith is in things that I can see obviously exist.  And my faith is based on observed facts and history.  None of that is the case with god. 

So, tell me, how is faith even applicable to god, unless you are talking about blind faith?  And even that is an enigma to me.  I cannot "just do it".  I have no idea how to try to have faith.  The best way I can explain it to you would be to ask you to try to believe in the tooth faerie. 

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2012, 12:18:15 PM »
I see I’m a bit late to the party. 

Your sole question to me was, “what is good?”  My answer is very little.  But that is not God’s fault, as I understand you imply.  Although God allows genocide, slavery and the killing of children and on special occasions sanctions it, it’s all for the good of mankind.
When I say for the good of mankind, I mean all of mankind.  I can explain if you would like.
Stop right there.  Your god encourages and approves of genocide, slavery, the killing of children, etc.  I’ve read the bible too, was a Christian and this god does not simply “allow” these horrible things.  Now, if your god was the omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent being that Christians claim,  there would be no need to have to use horrible events for “good”.  Your god could do anything it wants without harming anyone. That’s a limitation on humans in a world where there is no absolute good or evil.  This world.  So you fail there right off.   

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There are three types of bible translations: word-for-word (or literal), thought-for-thought (or liberal) and paraphrase.  A word-for-word translation attempts to translate the Hebrew and Greek into a word of similar meaning in English.  Three of the translations you mentioned, the RSV, KJV and NKJV are of  this type. The thought-for-thought translation expresses the meaning of a sentence into a similar meaning in English.  This type of translation is not as useful as the word-for-word in doctrinal study but can be used as an aid.  The NAB, NIV and NRSV are translations of this type. Lastly, the paraphrased translation presents the bible in simple everyday language that is easy to read and doesn’t worry about word-for-word or thought-for-thought expressions of the original language.  Examples of this type are the TLB and the NLT.   All translations are just that, translations.  They all contain some errors in translation. 
  AKA the usual Christian magic decoder rings.  You all pick and choose what you want to be literal or metaphor.  Generally it goes “anything that is icky, that’s metaphor.  Anything I like is literal”.  and of course no evidence to support that anything in the bible actually happened.  I always love a god that cant’ get its message through and allows death and destruction to be caused by this.

You make your god impotent with your excuses.  Pretty typical for a Christian.  Wants to have a god but doesn't wnat this omnimax being to be responsible for anything.   Also, your god does not exist much less "call".  I was a Christian and then lost my faith.  I prayed and prayed to this god to help me and got nothing.  So much for your magical claims about how one should "really" contact god.
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Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2012, 01:43:28 PM »
Hello JeffPT

No.  There would be no fundamental difference as to what one claimed about their god as opposed  to my God as long as we said the same thing.  It would be you said and I said, the same thing.  Net result…no difference.  However, I can only know what I know about my own experiences with God and cannot speak to what others say about their experiences.  As to how God communicates with us it is through his spirit.  Since he created our brains he would know how to communicate with us whether it be through electrical impulses, chemical input or some other way we have never thought of.

The bible is a real world record and was written by real world people.  It would have to be or we wouldn’t have the bible in the real world.  You need not provide evidence that good and bad things happen all the time in the world.  I watch CNN. (:  You wouldn’t think that most people would believe that there is a loving God.  But they do, even if they don’t understand him.  Once God reveals himself to you, you begin to see that God is an all powerful loving God who cares deeply about his creation.

Since the bible is a real world record written by real world people it serves as a credible source of  evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  It is no surprise to me that there are no other contemporary records for the events surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of  Christ.  Jesus only preached for three and half years and was well received by most.  It was only the last few months that the Jewish priests at the time got the people all stirred up which forced a trial that was illegal in the first place and had him crucified.  Then they paid off the guards that guarded the tomb to lie about how the disciples came in the night and stole the body.  I don’t think I would be writing a record about that either.  As for the Roman’s, they didn’t care about it one way or the other.  To them he was just another Jew to crucify. 

Just because we know that people don’t rise from the dead after 3 days is no proof that one didn’t especially in the light of the only contemporary record of the time that said he did.  Besides, we are not talking about “people” rising from the dead after 3 days.  We are talking about one man who rose from the dead after 3 day and 3 nights for the purpose of conquering death for all people.

If your book was the bible and your great-great grandfather was Jesus Christ I would believe it.  If not why would I?  My explanation would be that your book is not the bible and your great-great grandfather is not Jesus Christ.

God does have the power to stop all wrongs but chooses not to for a reason.  God’s way of life is to love others as you love yourself.  Since Satan rebelled against God he was rejecting that way.  There are only two basic ways of life.  The giving of yourself to others for their good with no thought of reward (God‘s way). Or the getting for yourself without regard for others (Satan‘s way).  Although God could of stopped Satan in his tracks, he couldn’t eradicate the idea that Satan injected into the minds of God’s creation.  Oh, he could of but then all he would have was obedient robots with no free will choice.  Since God wanted free will choice for his creation just like he has, he had to allow Satan’s challenge to play out.  In the end it will be seen that God’s way leads to peace, happiness and prosperity.  While Satan’s way leads only to misery, death and destruction.  We are experiencing Satan’s way now but he has deceived us into thinking that we can somehow fix it.  As long as we think we can fix it, God will allow us the opportunity until we make our final decision to push the button and eradicate all life on this planet.  Before that happens, God will intervene to save us.  We no longer have the argument, we can fix it.
There are no more options to try, we are at the end of our rope.  God can now make thing right and no one will doubt that God exists.
 

 





Offline truthseekertoo

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Re: Contradiction begins in the first two chapters
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2012, 01:44:28 PM »
To jemery0:

However, there are pieces of his message that don't fit in this manner, which is the only correct way to translate jesus' message - Anyone that does not hate mother/father/neighbor/brother/sister cannot be my desciple. When people think I came to save them, they are mistaken - I came to spread bloodshed, fire, and war. I want it to be brother against brother, father against son, a divided house...
These are also (approximately) things that Jesus said. It shows that he was just a man, preaching for a better tomorrow, if people were to 'wake up' to his message as he wanted.. If that happens, indeed you seem 'enlightened'. However, it doesn't make him a God, for obvious fallacies in the story..
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Luke 14:26;  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

In this sentence, Jesus was employing the use of a hyperbole and overstatement for emphasis.

Hyperbole (? /ha??p?rb?li?/ hy-PUR-b?-lee;[1] Greek: ????????, 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.[2]
Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect. As a literary device, hyperbole is often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech. An example of hyperbole is: "The bag weighed a ton."[3] Hyperbole helps to make the point that the bag was very heavy, although it is not probable that it would actually weigh a ton. (Wikipedia: Article: Hyperbole)

I have notice that you tend to take everything literally.  That works for a science textbook but just about everything else man has written employs every writing technique known to man.  The statement is meant to imply that we are to love God more than our family or even ourselves.  Notice Matt. 10:37;  “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”

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I don’t assume God to be good or that he is working for our benefit. (Isa. 25:7-9; Jer. 29:11)
Now you retract from previous arguments due to the 'evidence' presented here by other members..
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You missed my intended meaning.  Admittedly I have worded it poorly.  I should of worded it: I don’t “just” assume God to be good or that he is working for our benefit,  I know it. Isa. 25:7-9;  “And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.  He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.  And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation." (NKJV)

Jer. 29:11;  “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.” (NKJV) 

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Multiple stories in this one article, even relating to the Dead Sea and religious history... S&G may not have actually been destroyed, but in reality a made-up story in order to scare people into thinking God can kill you if he wants..

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This is just an opinion and an assumption.

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  So you are saying that God should 'kill off most Africans due to an AIDs epidemic? I am waiting for a response to this as well..

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No.  I can not judge them.  That is God’s responsibility

This is my last post.  I want to thank all of you for your replies.  It has been an experience and I have learned a lot. 


« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 01:46:06 PM by truthseekertoo »