Author Topic: Another attempt to answer.  (Read 13621 times)

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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2010, 06:12:19 PM »
DVZ3 - please don't lower the standards set by your boardmates.


Omen - You are right on most of those: The problem with an idea of an all-powerful and all-knowing eternal being is that it has no reason to do anything, no needs it couldn't fullfill as soon as they arise. And if it is perfect, it can't be bored or lonely. This leads to the conclusion that if it existed it must have created the universe for no reason at all, making the whole concept ridiculous.

But you are also late - the thread got derailed many posts ago.


Azdgari - Atheist and not happy about it. And yes, if I hadn't lied, there would be no point in us discussing religion. Which is why I did.

ReasonIsOutToLunch - I am not going in any particular direction at this moment, instead allowing your posts to give direction to the thread.
As for opinions, The ones presented on the first page were lies. The rest should be coherent enough but if something is unclear, ask and I will restate it.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 06:15:14 PM by Braininthejar »

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2010, 06:14:05 PM »
^^^ No thanks.
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2010, 06:19:19 PM »
Yea... I see Apostle Shorty is hogging all the attention.  8)

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2010, 06:20:44 PM »
Yea... I see Apostle Shorty is hogging all the attention.  8)

he will be running away in about a minute, though I could be wrong.   &)
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2010, 06:32:21 PM »
Which is good in what way exactly? There is a saying ( I don't know if it originated in the net or not )

"Never argue with a fool - he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience"

And by what I can read, you guys did go down to his level. Those posts are nothing like what I got from you. Now he can go home happy that he proved you to be whatever he believed you are.

Even ReasonIsOutToLunch who gave a very sensible answer ( and managed to answer some of my own questions in the process ) spiced it with so much sarcasm that Shorty will only feel how it stings and completely miss the arguments within.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2010, 06:43:44 PM »
well Braininthejar, who knows what some people truly think when they wonder into a site like this.
some will say we are devil worshipers, or taking away someones hope. I perfer to think that we open up the big questions, attempt to answer them to the best of our ability's.

you cant help but to poke fun at the absurd. spend some time here, you will see that.

no one is putting a gun to ones head. if your looking for the meaning of life, no one can help you with that, except you.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2010, 06:44:47 PM »
Azdgari - Atheist and not happy about it. And yes, if I hadn't lied, there would be no point in us discussing religion. Which is why I did.

Given that you've apparently lied for the majority of the thread, what assurance does anyone here have that you'll conduct yourself honestly from here on in?  I for one value honesty; that you do not, makes you supposed situation (hating being an atheist) much less sympathetic.

Regardless of that, though:  Why does being an atheist make you unhappy?  I mean, there are valid reasons why it might be so:  If I had been raised in my father's household, rather than my mothers, then I would have likely been very unhappy in my atheism.  In such a case, however, it would be more accurate to point to the culture of the household as the source of my unhappiness, rather than to my atheism.

So - and I apologize if you've already said this and I missed it - why does atheism itself make you unhappy, if indeed it is atheism itself that is making you unhappy?
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2010, 06:46:17 PM »
Brain, does your non belief in Ra also make you unhappy?
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2010, 07:05:54 PM »
Odd -- atheist and unhappy about it?

Damn, I just found out Zeus if fake and I'm pretty unhappy about it! No Elysian fields? Don't that beat all!

Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2010, 07:54:03 PM »
I don't think its a matter of household. My family isn't very religious. They only really remember to go to church around christmas and easter and visit graves on all saint's day.

But I myself used to be very religious. Perhaps I was compensating for my poor social relations as a kid. I have a high IQ, a bit below mensa standard. But for children it only meant "speaking funny words nobody understands" and children can be quite cruel to weirdos.

Anyway, I lost faith in my late teens - a footnote in a fantasy book I was reading (ironic, isn't it) contained some historical info about the probable origins of Judaism. This made me think and doubt - there was scientific knowledge that directly contradicted my religion. I asked a priest about it and, perhaps out of inexperience, he gave me an answer that insulted my intelligence. This pretty much sealed my change of beliefs.

It was really traumatic at first. While before I could fear that my sins might result in an eternity of suffering, now I was sure that I would cease to exist, gone as if never born, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Its no longer that painful thankfully but I still haven't found a satisfying answer to it - rather, time has dulled the experience.

While reading this forum I have seen several people accusing you of taking away hope and I think this is a part of this problem: no god or afterlife means we will cease to exist no matter what and while oblivion iteself isn't painful in any way, its inevitability can be crushing

After all, being powerless to do anything is what brings despair.

The other thing is ego I think. People want to matter.

Thats why being a part of some great plan is welcomed by so many, despite all the implications. To quote a movie that nobody would expect to be relevant to this matter:

"You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying"

Being screwed over by an earthquake send by a supposedly benevolent god sucks big time. But at least you have someone to blame for it. And at the very least that means that the creator of the Universe has noticed you - since you are included in the scheme.

The alternative with no god means that its all an accident. Your life was wrecked for no reason at all. And there is no greater purpose for you. You can have  some delusions about being important but the truth is, the only reason you are even sentient is that the Universe is so mindboglingly huge that even such an improbable coincidence had to happen sooner or later. And anyone who can tell you otherwise will turn to dust within 90 years tops.

Now, it would be impossible to cope with everyday life with such a view point. So people who aren't theists dilute it in a way. The most common answers seem to be "At least I will die knowing I lived a good life" (but you can't die "knowing" anything.) or "my legacy will live on in my family/ people I helped" (which are just as ephemeral as you are) or "I don't care" (which I wish I could do.)

Ok, some points have been exaggerated for the sake of clarity but I think I have explained what bugs me.



Offline Gimpy

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2010, 09:09:53 PM »
Being screwed over by an earthquake send by a supposedly benevolent god sucks big time. But at least you have someone to blame for it. And at the very least that means that the creator of the Universe has noticed you - since you are included in the scheme.

The alternative with no god means that its all an accident. Your life was wrecked for no reason at all. And there is no greater purpose for you. You can have  some delusions about being important but the truth is, the only reason you are even sentient is that the Universe is so mindboglingly huge that even such an improbable coincidence had to happen sooner or later. And anyone who can tell you otherwise will turn to dust within 90 years tops.

Now, it would be impossible to cope with everyday life with such a view point. So people who aren't theists dilute it in a way. The most common answers seem to be "At least I will die knowing I lived a good life" (but you can't die "knowing" anything.) or "my legacy will live on in my family/ people I helped" (which are just as ephemeral as you are) or "I don't care" (which I wish I could do.)

Ok, some points have been exaggerated for the sake of clarity but I think I have explained what bugs me.



This is absurd. "At least you have someone to blame"?!

Wow. I prefer to have NO ONE to blame. I was just recently diagnosed with breast cancer. It was a jolt, to be sure. It does help one focus on the idea of our own mortality. But to use some lame excuse that if I at least believed in a god, "I WOULD HAVE SOMEONE TO BLAME" is ludicrous!

How does that help anything? It doesn't. It keeps one tied to a baseless fear that had I just been good enough, or  some noble martyr status, I'm being tested (what if I FAIL?! OMG!?). I mean the IDEA that a god would either ALLOW breast cancer to strike someone, or actually STRIKE someone with it as part of some bizarre grand "plan" is just illogical and creates all sorts of panic and self-doubt and other sorts of mini-psychoses that I can't even begin to address them all!

The moment I realized that a god did not exist, that there was no "life" after death, and that there is no paradise where we live on forever was a very freeing and hope-full moment for me.

I no longer had to live in doubt of my decisions. I very much respected the life I do have because it IS precious, it IS the only one we get!

Sorry, but you have totally lost me with this loose cannon comment. Not that you care. But it is such a mucked up approach. "At least there is someone to blame. . . . "
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 11:00:18 PM by Gimpy »
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Offline blahsphemer

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2010, 10:43:29 PM »
So, you are a homeless 50yr. old with access to the net? It turns out very ironic once you read the whole thread.
there is free internet access if you know where to find it.


Quote
Well, I'll play along for a second so I cana nswer your question. What I mean is not magic. With the current level of technology, nearly every country could easily produce more food then they need. Countries that suffer from constant famine are usually screwed over by politics and economy much harder than by any nature/climate- related issues.
Since you didn't mean magic it wasn't from some imaginary god, it was from hard working people who were willing to take time to understand the way the reality works, that makes this technology possable.
Don't try to steal credit from someone else so you can give it to some imaginary god,because this god you speak of had nothing to do with mankinds scientific accomplishments.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:45:03 PM by blahsphemer »
  <<the kind of christian woman i like.

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2010, 05:02:51 AM »
Quote
This is absurd. "At least you have someone to blame"?!

Wow. I prefer to have NO ONE to blame. I was just recently diagnosed with breast cancer. It was a jolt, to be sure. It does help one focus on the idea of our own mortality. But to use some lame excuse that if I at least believed in a god, "I WOULD HAVE SOMEONE TO BLAME" is ludicrous!

How does that help anything? It doesn't. It keeps one tied to a baseless fear that had I just been good enough, or  some noble martyr status, I'm being tested (what if I FAIL?! OMG!?). I mean the IDEA that a god would either ALLOW breast cancer to strike someone, or actually STRIKE someone with it as part of some bizarre grand "plan" is just illogical and creates all sorts of panic and self-doubt and other sorts of mini-psychoses that I can't even begin to address them all!

The moment I realized that a god did not exist, that there was no "life" after death, and that there is no paradise where we live on forever was a very freeing and hope-full moment for me.

I no longer had to live in doubt of my decisions. I very much respected the life I do have because it IS precious, it IS the only one we get!

Sorry, but you have totally lost me with this loose cannon comment. Not that you care. But it is such a mucked up approach. "At least there is someone to blame. . . . "

So for you random disasters are better than planned ones? I am not sure why it is not so for me. Perhaps it has something to do with the human tendency to look for patterns..

Just like you don't understand me, I can't really understand you here. Perhaps it is better if we leave it at that. I do care about your opinion since you have been nice to me so far. But further attempts to make you understand my wiev point... well, they could make you see things my way. And since you managed to find a view of life you are apparently happy with, that would be pointless and cruel.

Offline ksm

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2010, 05:34:02 AM »
Quote
This is absurd. "At least you have someone to blame"?!

Wow. I prefer to have NO ONE to blame. I was just recently diagnosed with breast cancer. It was a jolt, to be sure. It does help one focus on the idea of our own mortality. But to use some lame excuse that if I at least believed in a god, "I WOULD HAVE SOMEONE TO BLAME" is ludicrous!

How does that help anything? It doesn't. It keeps one tied to a baseless fear that had I just been good enough, or  some noble martyr status, I'm being tested (what if I FAIL?! OMG!?). I mean the IDEA that a god would either ALLOW breast cancer to strike someone, or actually STRIKE someone with it as part of some bizarre grand "plan" is just illogical and creates all sorts of panic and self-doubt and other sorts of mini-psychoses that I can't even begin to address them all!

The moment I realized that a god did not exist, that there was no "life" after death, and that there is no paradise where we live on forever was a very freeing and hope-full moment for me.

I no longer had to live in doubt of my decisions. I very much respected the life I do have because it IS precious, it IS the only one we get!

Sorry, but you have totally lost me with this loose cannon comment. Not that you care. But it is such a mucked up approach. "At least there is someone to blame. . . . "

So for you random disasters are better than planned ones? I am not sure why it is not so for me. Perhaps it has something to do with the human tendency to look for patterns..

I can't answer for Gimpy, but the alternative to "random" is "God wants me to have cancer."

"God hates me and my family so much that he has inflicted cancer on me."

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2010, 05:55:24 AM »
Oh, for a believer its pretty easy to rationalize this one.

Something like "God wants to test me. If I am strong in my faith, he will make up for it to me in heaven" or some such.

Atheism leaves no margin for such things.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2010, 05:56:36 AM »
Now, it would be impossible to cope with everyday life with such a view point. So people who aren't theists dilute it in a way. The most common answers seem to be "At least I will die knowing I lived a good life" (but you can't die "knowing" anything.) or "my legacy will live on in my family/ people I helped" (which are just as ephemeral as you are) or "I don't care" (which I wish I could do.)

Ok, some points have been exaggerated for the sake of clarity but I think I have explained what bugs me.

Yeah, you're quite right.  There is no point in going to a movie - it will only end after a couple hours, so it is pointless to go see it.  No point watching a game of baseball - it will end after a couple hours, so what's the point?  Why buy a car, a toy, a house, a meal, a book?  They will all disappear one day, what's the point?

Wht bother helping anyone?  So what if it makes people happier now and in the future?  We'll all be dead one day, so what's the point?

The point is that we ARE here - we all have this one shining, glittering spark of existence.  Yes, it will end - and that is what makes it precious, gives me a reason to enjoy it and to make it a great place for everyone else whose brief sparks have come at the same time, or later than, mine.

I don't want to be dead.  I enjoy living a lot, I want to go on doing it for a looooong time.  But just because one day I will stop does not make anything I do pointless.  The meaning of life, of the universe, is what we give it.  Us.  By existing, we create and give meaning.  It is the finite nature of life that makes it so precious and important.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2010, 06:07:36 AM »
We get what seems to be the same data input and get to quite the opposite conclusions.

I think there is a flaw in your reasoning but its a desired flaw, required for a person to live a happy, fulfilling life despite the absurd of existence. The closest I can get to that is go enjoy the movie and not think about it too much.

For those of you who read Terry Pratchett, I could say I am a bit knurd. And since I don't drink, I can't make up for it.

Offline ksm

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2010, 07:15:52 AM »
Oh, for a believer its pretty easy to rationalize this one.

Something like "God wants to test me. If I am strong in my faith, he will make up for it to me in heaven" or some such.

Atheism leaves no margin for such things.

Or Gods wants to punish me. God wants me in pain. God wants my family in grief.

It all depends on the believer.

As opposed to "I got cancer because I was unlucky" or "because I had a genetic predisposition" or "because I was exposed to chemicals/radiation"

Making up answers, what does that achieve?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2010, 01:33:22 PM »
You all seem to hate this one part. Does that mean the rest of what I said makes sense to you?

I am not sure why it is so. Perhaps it has to do with human tendency to look for patterns, one of the things that led to creating religions in the first place. Not everything in human nature has to be visibly logical. Otherwise, why would there be so many theists?

(not a very good post but I have overdue posts elsewhere, sorry)

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2010, 01:50:43 AM »
^^ I still think it's odd that the disbelief in the abrahamic god causes you some kind of grief and the disbelief in all the other gods means nothing to you. Perhaps, I am completely weird in that losing my faith was a positive experience all around. It was just like I woke up from a bad dream and found out everything was ok.

As for what happens when we die the idea of my conscienceness ceasing to exist bugs me. I would hope no one things yay éverything I loved, hated, and everything that made me happy is going to be gone, just like that, cool. But, I can't reconcile the thought that some people go to a place of torment and some go to a place of infinite joy. It makes no sense whatsoever. Gravity works whether you believe in it or not. Electricity works even if you don't understand it. The earth revolves around the sun even if you think that the sun goes around the earth. So, how could belief or lack of belief stop you from going to a place of infinite joy?

So, I am left with death being the great equalizer. We all share the same ulitimate fate whether we were decent people or if we were a mass murdering dictator. I want a place where people I loved(whether I knew them personally or not) go and continue being who they were. I would love to chat with hundreds of historical figures and people I have read about that have done some really cool things. I can think of hundreds of things that would keep me busy for an eternity. But, I don't really believe that place exists or that hell exists. But, I fully believe we all share the same ultimate fate. So, I try to behave in a way that allows me to have a the best life I can have now and lets me enjoy the people and my dog that I love now. Oh snap, that reminds me I got some ice cream.
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2010, 04:54:03 AM »
We get what seems to be the same data input and get to quite the opposite conclusions.

And what is the data?

We have life.  One day we will not have life.  Life is full of experience and enjoyment and fun.

Your focus is on the second piece of data, mine is on the first and the last.  It doesn't bother me that things are ephemeral - though I do not like it when my favourite sit-com ends, that doesn't detract from the enjoyment I gained from it.

And I presume that you DO enjoy things - you make love, you watch movies, you play sports, you talk to friends....and you do so because, here and now, it makes you happy.  If you really, honestly believed that everything was so pointless, you would simply lie down and never move again.

But you don't.  You do experience life.  And so at least part of you admits that there IS a point to it, no matter how ephemeral it may be.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2010, 10:28:51 AM »
Quote
^^ I still think it's odd that the disbelief in the abrahamic god causes you some kind of grief and the disbelief in all the other gods means nothing to you.

Its not a matter of one particular god not existing (after all, all monoteist religions are mutually exclusive in their claims) but of no god at all existing.

And yes, an afterlife dictated by something like gravity, where you get attracted to 'kindred souls' that share the same way of thinking would be quite just.

Sadly, it almost certainly doesn't exist.

The closest thing to oblivion that I have experienced was being sedated for a surgery. That was... nothing. Just as you expect. I don't even remember falling asleep. The piece of my life between being put on the table and waking up in the post-op room is simply missing. No fear, no pain no darkness. Its the concept itself, ceasing to exist forever, that is scary.

Quote
And I presume that you DO enjoy things - you make love, you watch movies, you play sports, you talk to friends....and you do so because, here and now, it makes you happy.  If you really, honestly believed that everything was so pointless, you would simply lie down and never move again.

Yes, but I don't have a full control over that. You can't really decide to be optimist - imperare sibi and all that. (That's why the research testing if being optimistic increases your chances of beating cancer showed no measurable difference. People worked on the researchers' advice and tried to be optimistic but how can you measure if it really changed their attitude?)

I can enjoy myself as long as I don't think about those things. When I watch a movie I experience the plot and focus on that. When I eat icecream I enjoy the taste and don't think about anything else. When I achieve something, I am proud of my work. But each time I go to work and put a new date on the papers I am sending, I feel a tug of unease. That's why 'preaching' atheists unsettle me so.


Speaking of which, I have ran myself into a corner here. While browsing your forum I found a link to a christian forum that is your polar opposite.

And I am very curious of seeing the other side and getting the full picture. But that would require discussing with those people, pointing at the logical gaps in their beliefs. And with all I have said here, that would be hipocrisy

Offline Rod428

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2010, 10:59:09 AM »
Quote
   

And I am very curious of seeing the other side and getting the full picture. But that would require discussing with those people, pointing at the logical gaps in their beliefs. And with all I have said here, that would be hipocrisy

i'm not sure of that. maybe a better way to put that and what happens here is pointing out logical gaps in the difference between one person's perspective compared to the next..?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2010, 11:31:40 AM »

Yes, brain, I think you are a theist who pretends to be an atheist when they are caught flatfooted. Let’s apply Occam’s razor here shall we, the “simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one”?  You started by answering the 10 questions as a theist.  You refered to yourself as a Christian.  You have claimed bible events as true and did not acknowledge the facts that showed that they are not.  You have attempted to argue free will and have not acknowledge the parts from the bible that show this not to be true. You argue that human perception is “subjective” which has also been shown to be in error to excuse your God’s actions which supposedly we can’t understand.  You have made the usual strawman atheist arguments as if they were what all atheists think with no evidence of such.  You have made claims that people never thought to improve themselves which is patently untrue. 

You refer to atheists as “you”, “I had seen some flaming by atheists on youtube. I know the comments on youtube often contain flame but it kind of made a bad impression so I wanted to see how you really are.”  Which makes no sense if you consider yourself an atheist.  You claim that one can’t have a discussion if “both sides agree” and you had to take the opposite side.  Why bother with the charade? If you are as you say, a rather nihilist atheist, why not debate that with other atheists?  You may be telling the truth but your self-description is such a charicature that I just have to laugh at it.  Christians have accused of me of being *exactly* what you claim you are.  At best, you seem like a very ill-informed atheist, that believes what Christians say about them.  That can be helped. 

Claims of personal incredulity about how other theists act don’t help much.  I have yet to see it the “other way around” that a atheist would claim to be a theist once trounced.  And I’m a phrase that means “Remember you must die"” to you?  I suspect you mean that I, as an atheist, make you uncomfortable with my not believing as you do. 

If humansn were creatures of no greed, democracy would work. Logic has little to do with that.  The claim that mean ol’ atheist are robbing people of “comfort” is a old one.  Unfortunately, this comfort causes more pain that it seems to salve.  What has belief in the supernatural done for humanity?  Some momentary comfort dashed when the prayer is not answered?  Endless efforts to excuse God for why it doesn’t act?  People waiting for God to act and nothing being done like in the Dark Ages when people were on their knees waiting for the return of their savior, “God save us from the Northmen”?  The practical application of research that ends up showing that supernatural exists is medicine, computers, etc.  All created to address that which so many pious theists claimed that God was behind, that God’s Will should not be prevented lest God’s wrath be against us.  You use it every day.  Some one asked “Why should children die of disease?  Why should mothers die in childbirth?  Why?  Why? Why?”  And they did something about it.  This is the science that questioned the universe and pushed God into the gaps.

And how many “famous scientists started as clergy”?  I don’t vague claims like that, attempts to validate religion with no actual evidence. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2010, 12:31:37 PM »
Velkyn -- I'm glad you're on our side.
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2010, 03:25:14 PM »
Hmm, I was about to say that neither of us can prove it one way or another, making the discussion moot. (My nickname comes from a discussion I once had on the net on how we can't really tell who the other person on the net is as all we know about them is the info they themselves provide)

But it seems you do have some arguments and I think I can accept the challenge.

First of all, "a theist who pretends to be an atheists when caught flatfooted." Could you provide some links to events like that? Because I find it logically impossible. I mean, a person who claims to be a theist but decides to bash his religion out of fear of being ridiculed by people he considers misguided/evil and who will likely never see his face? I don't think one can do that while still matching the definition of a theist.

Of course, as I had said, humans aren't creatures of logic so I am ready to accept the fact of such people existing if you provide me with a link.

(The alternative is that there are no such people and you are pulling my leg, in an attempt to teach me a lesson about telling lies on the forum)

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You refer to atheists as “you”

I refer to "preaching atheists" as "you". As I said, while I understand the reasons for your behaviour, I don't consider myself a part of your community, for reasons I have stated. Also, what else was I supposed to use? "We?" That would lead to sentences like "We creep me out".

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You claim that one can’t have a discussion if “both sides agree” and you had to take the opposite side.  Why bother with the charade? If you are as you say, a rather nihilist atheist, why not debate that with other atheists?  You may be telling the truth but your self-description is such a charicature that I just have to laugh at it.  Christians have accused of me of being *exactly* what you claim you are.  At best, you seem like a very ill-informed atheist, that believes what Christians say about them.  That can be helped.

Well then, wasn't that the best way to find out the truth about what christians say about you? To pretend to be one and see how you will treat me?

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You have made the usual strawman atheist arguments as if they were what all atheists think with no evidence of such

The bible is only really read by people who intend to argue about it. I was a christian until my teens and pretty much avoided the subject since then. Why should I know any more about the topic?

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Claims of personal incredulity about how other theists act don’t help much.  I have yet to see it the “other way around” that a atheist would claim to be a theist once trounced.

You seeing that would require a very unlikely occurance - an atheist losing an argument. You can lose in various forms of conflict but not in a logical discussion. or am I uninformed again? Are there any theist logical arguments you guys have no answer to?  
Also for someone to make such a claim, it would have to be at least marginally believable. Is there any believable reason why a theist would deny his faith to troll other theists?

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And I’m a phrase that means “Remember you must die"” to you?  I suspect you mean that I, as an atheist, make you uncomfortable with my not believing as you do.  

More like you are a phrase "any illusions you might have about not dying are being scientifically proven wrong as we speak." And you simply remind me of the whole subject, which I usually avoid. (or have been avoiding until now. Seems I can't resist posting here when directly adressed.)

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Unfortunately, this comfort causes more pain that it seems to salve.

This is very subjective. I am fully aware many of you feel happier about dropping faith. I am not and I can do little about my feelings.

As for democracy, it works like this: every vote is worth the same. So two bums outweight a professor. To get power one needs the most voices. That means to get power, one must appeal to the ones that get him the most voices - those that are the easiest to sway. That means appealing to smart people is a waste of energy. Governing well takes a long time to give visible effects - usually you spend your term enjoying/suffering the effects of what your predecessor did.  Putting the same effort into gaining influence/allies that can help you stay in power is much more cost-effective when your goal is staying in power. Its a system of evolution that favours manipulative bastards.

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And how many “famous scientists started as clergy”?  I don’t vague claims like that, attempts to validate religion with no actual evidence.

Copernicus? I think Darwin too, though my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one. You are right on the evidence part though. I will try to avoid too general statements in the future.

You also seem to have a very black-and-white perception of the world. There are scientists today who are theists. And while some of them are creationists, you can't just put a = between them.

On the same note, do you think George Bush really though he heard God telling him to invade Iraq? Or that the crusaders who plundered Constantinople did it "for God"? Religion was an excuse but not the cause any more than atheism was the reason behind the Soviets plundering churches. Where there is an evil man a justification for evil will present itself.

And yes, there have been and stil are atrocities comitted by really religious people. There are none comitted "in the name of atheism" because as you keep saying "atheism is not a religion". When an atheist commits atrocities, it is because he doesn't believe in any eternal punishment and reasons he can do anything as long as he can get away with it.

No,I am not saying that being an atheist makes you a heartless nihilist, despite what some christians say. It made ME a nihilist but I am not heartless.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 03:33:25 PM by Braininthejar »

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2010, 04:40:32 PM »
Re:^^^^^"When an atheist commits atrocities, it is because he doesn't believe in any eternal punishment and reasons he can do anything as long as he can get away with it."

That is the definiton of a sociopath, not an atheist. This implies that fear of eternal punishment is the main thing that prevents people from committing atrocities. Cultural and societal constraints, family background, psychology, and human evolution prevent people from committing atrocities. Not fear of eternal damnation. 

Are the prisons of the world full of atheists? Are the places that are voluntarily atheistic (Scandinavia, Japan) full of violent, unhappy people committing atrocities against each other? Are the places in the world with the most religious belief better places to live?

The reality is just the opposite. Japan has practically no crime compared to the US. Denmark was recently rated one of the happiest places in the world. And, how does knowing that "eternal punishment awaits" make people happy?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2010, 05:05:55 PM »
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That is the definiton of a sociopath, not an atheist. This implies that fear of eternal punishment is the main thing that prevents people from committing atrocities. Cultural and societal constraints, family background, psychology, and human evolution prevent people from committing atrocities. Not fear of eternal damnation.

Lack of empathy is a prerequisite for crime, is it not? But I think you are missing the point here. What I meant was not that faith is the only thing that prevents crime. I just argued that no faith or lack of it defines one as a villain. A 'sociopath' can be a theist or an atheist and will behave the same - he will just be motivated differently. And on a smaller scale, one can be an atheist and a bigot.

Your response makes me sound like this:

EDIT: Internet ate my picture...duh


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Are the prisons of the world full of atheists?

Well, not the 'philosophical' kind. But they contain plenty of people who don't give a s*** about gods or afterlife.

Are they full of 'faithful' christians?

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Are the places that are voluntarily atheistic (Scandinavia, Japan) full of violent, unhappy people committing atrocities against each other?

No, but this is an overgeneralization, ignoring the rest of their cultural background. Its like saying atheism prevents heart diseases, since they are very effectively prevented in both Scandinavia and Japan.



« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 11:22:19 AM by Braininthejar »

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2010, 05:17:15 PM »
Braininajar, I believe you are an atheist pretending to be a theist. I think you really do understand there is no god. But, you are really confused, you are going through the motions at church. The whole time you have doubts, no not doubts, you know there is no god. So, you wonder why you keep up the act around all your theist friends. It must be hard leading a double life. But, you hold on to that little tiny shred of hope that if you pretend hard enough you will believe again and it will be enough to keep the imaginary sky daddy happy and you out of hell.
God, doesn't know pi.