Author Topic: Another attempt to answer.  (Read 13394 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 02:46:29 PM »
"Yes, that means that all evil happens because God made it so."--Braininthejar

I just participated in a panel session and fundraiser for Haiti. From what Braininthejar says, the earthquake (and every other bad thing that has ever happened to anyone anywhere) was caused by god. For no reason that anyone will ever be able to figure out.

Untold suffering and death affecting millions of innocent people. Children orphaned, elderly people maimed, hospitals and schools destroyed. Dead bodies piling up in the streets. Parents driven insane with the loss of their kids.
 
Don't give me any bs about the people "not being innocent because of original sin" or something. No country deserves what happened to Haiti, even if every person there was guilty of some serious crime. We are talking about a quarter of a million men, women and kids dead. Old and young, naughty and nice, religious and atheist. Crushed to death. Including the effing archbishop.

But no biggie. You can't please everyone. Somebody will find something to complain about whatever you do. So you might as well send 7.0 earthquakes to impoverished 3rd world countries. Right? If you can't have perfection, you might as well have extreme horribleness.

Now tell me again why we should love, respect or value this god guy? He sounds like a Mr Diety parody.

(Of course, since there is no god, we can just grieve with the people and help them all we can, knowing that earthquakes happen because that's the way the earth is made. We don't need to waste time blaming god or trying to understand his mysterious ways.)
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 08:55:52 PM »
Ok, I think that's enough.

I entered this site for several reasons.

1 I had seen some flaming by atheists on youtube. I know the comments on youtube often contain flame but it kind of made a bad impression so I wanted to see how you really are. Doesn't look bad as far as I can see. Nearly all of you have manners.

2 I wanted to participate in a serious discussion, which I hadn't done in some time. But there is no discussion if both sides agree. So, I needed to take the opposite view, even if I knew it was the losing side and in the end I couldn't answer to all the arguments. (I think I did quite well on the philosophical side, though I might have committed some heresies in the process. Its that pesky slavery that left me completely stuck)

3 I wanted to find out if I could be one of you. And the answer is no. You still creep me out.

I was planning to give a small lecture here about how delusions of various sorts are a part of human nature, some of them pretty much hardwired into our brain and a side effect of our ability of abstract thinking. But I will now skip it and get to the point.

I am an atheist and I hate it.

Living with the knowledge that you will inevitably cease to exist is worse than any fear of hell I might have experienced as a christian. Totally not worth the few benefits that being an atheist gives. I still harbour some delusions about afterlife, quite delibarately so. They keep me from going quite emo. (helps that I have a friend who has had a near-death experience, complete with white light and a "non-blatant miracle" recovery - though I have heard there are some neuro-biologists trying to take it away from people too)

Preventing religions from doing evil is a just cause and it is true that no atrocities are commited in the name of atheism (well, not since the Soviet Union anyway, and there it was just a part of a larger ideology) But besides that I find you no different. You preach (if life is so prescious, don't you have more fulfilling things to do than argue with theists who only get angry at your arguments?) , you take something from people giving little in return (science isn't a product of atheism even if some great inventors were atheists) and looking down on people with different beliefs is a part of your belief system.

Ok, I am ranting. Time to sign off. 


Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 09:21:11 PM »
To be one of me, you would need to be curious, intelligent, honest, speak a few languages, have two university degrees, a rewarding and profitable career, and a track record of helping the less fortunate in your area through community leadership and mentoring.

I guess that might seem creepy to a sniveling self-centered infant.

Best of luck reaching maturity, kid.

 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Gimpy

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 09:31:19 PM »
braininthejar, I'm sorry that acknowledging your lack of belief is so emotionally wrenching for you. It's hard giving up the wishful/magical thinking. I guess there is some "comfort" in certain myths and legends, but it is true that it is a sad day when we realize our myths and legends just aren't true.

It's also unfortunate you continue to call the lack of believe in magical thinking and imaginary beings a "belief system," because it's really the antithesis of a belief system.

And once you are comfortable with reality, instead of made up stories, it's a very freeing position to be in.

But my view or perspective of life and death is not a belief "system." That phrasing always confuses me.

Also, I can understand the fear of letting go of immortality. It's a tough one to overcome. Nobody wants to be insignificant. Nobody wants life/consciousness to end. Which is why once one realizes this is the only shot we get, one lives a much fuller and rewarding life, in my opinion. Every minute counts. Every second counts. There are no do-overs. There is no second chance. Make it count.

Now this is said by someone who has on more than one occasion looked into the stark reality of her own mortality.

I hate that when it's over, it's over. But that's what it is. When my body fails me, when my consciousness goes out, that is the end of the line.

What I hope for is that I have made a strong enough impression on the lives of others that the thought of me, that the memory of who I was, what made me laugh, what made me cry, what excited me, all the people I've helped, all the lives I've touched, and will continue to touch, lives on through them.

I want my grandson to tell his grandsons what his Nana was all about. I want my stories to be told to them and I want a legacy that will sustain at a minimum several generations. That's what one can do, and should do, is build a legacy in this life. I have a decent one started, but I'm not done yet.

But in the end, as is true even as the memories of my own grandmother are fading, the lives of those left behind  goes on. But that doesn't scare me. It just is what it is.
Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2010, 06:38:06 AM »
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To be one of me, you would need to be curious, intelligent, honest, speak a few languages, have two university degrees, a rewarding and profitable career, and a track record of helping the less fortunate in your area through community leadership and mentoring.

I guess that might seem creepy to a sniveling self-centered infant.

Best of luck reaching maturity, kid. 

Wow, it must be hard for you, with so few people around living up to your standard. I only have a master degree. Sadly, seeing that I am almost thirty now, this is probably as mature as I am going to get. For the last couple of years I only grew more cynical.

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But my view or perspective of life and death is not a belief "system." That phrasing always confuses me.

It is what you believe and it defines your behaviour patters. Looks like a system to me but in the end that's arguing about semantics.

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I want my grandson to tell his grandsons what his Nana was all about. I want my stories to be told to them and I want a legacy that will sustain at a minimum several generations. That's what one can do, and should do, is build a legacy in this life. I have a decent one started, but I'm not done yet.

This reminds me of a book I once read. During a discussion over an unmarked grave in the wilderness, one of the characters said that "You live as long as you are remembered." To which the other character asked him "What was the name of your great-grandfather?"

I mostly cope with it by not thinking about it too much. I think that's what most people do. This way we can be happy with our lives and achievements even if logic indicates that ultimately nothing of it will last. Well, if humands were creatures of logic, democracy would work.  ;)

Thank you for your kind words.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2010, 07:26:44 AM »
Quote
To be one of me, you would need to be curious, intelligent, honest, speak a few languages, have two university degrees, a rewarding and profitable career, and a track record of helping the less fortunate in your area through community leadership and mentoring.

I guess that might seem creepy to a sniveling self-centered infant.

Best of luck reaching maturity, kid. 

Wow, it must be hard for you, with so few people around living up to your standard. I only have a master degree. Sadly, seeing that I am almost thirty now, this is probably as mature as I am going to get. For the last couple of years I only grew more cynical.

No, it's not my standard, it's what you say you cannot attain, big boy.

Too bad. There's always playing pretend on an internet forum, to illicit an ego-sating pity party, though.   
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2010, 08:30:11 AM »
You preach (if life is so prescious, don't you have more fulfilling things to do than argue with theists who only get angry at your arguments?) , you take something from people giving little in return (science isn't a product of atheism even if some great inventors were atheists) and looking down on people with different beliefs is a part of your belief system.


So...you are saying that you would prefer to live happily in a delusion, than unhappily with the knowledge of reality?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline GetMeThere

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2010, 09:26:09 AM »
Ok, I think that's enough. I am an atheist and I hate it.

If you are unhappy I suggest it may in some way be connected to your easy willingness to lie (or at least intentionally mislead) and manipulate others.

You might consider that finding within yourself a desire to treat others better--and following through on that--will make you feel better about yourself...

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2010, 11:04:22 AM »
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No, it's not my standard, it's what you say you cannot attain, big boy. Too bad. There's always playing pretend on an internet forum, to illicit an ego-sating pity party, though.

So much venom... Happy people with fulfilling lives rarely grow that snarky. Don't make me doubt all those wonderful things you have written about yourself...

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So...you are saying that you would prefer to live happily in a delusion, than unhappily with the knowledge of reality?

Hmm, it seems I actually am... If we only have one life, we only have one chance to be happy... There is a picture on this page that relates to humanity's general attitude towards it.



Now, who is more delusional? the people in the queue or the guy in the first booth?

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If you are unhappy I suggest it may in some way be connected to your easy willingness to lie (or at least intentionally mislead) and manipulate others.You might consider that finding within yourself a desire to treat others better--and following through on that--will make you feel better about yourself...

I must say this one amazes me. At first glance this sounds like something Ambassador Pony would say. But somehow you managed to make it sound friendly. Thank you. It seems the internet brings out the worst in me. Perhaps its because I lack the ability to lie in RL. Or just that social interaction IRL has a quite different dimension - it is much easier to experience the joy of sharing for example.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2010, 11:30:38 AM »
So much venom... Happy people with fulfilling lives rarely grow that snarky.

*Looks around for a snake, pauses and shrugs* Just because one uses a rhetorical tool called sarcasm, which Pony uses quite well, doesn't mean one's life isn't fulfilled. Dealing with people that irrationally hold on to fixed beliefs due to a biased upbringing on a daily basis can and will slowly wear one's fuse down. That's why the advice "Take all things in moderation" applies to religious debate as well.

Hmm, it seems I actually am... If we only have one life, we only have one chance to be happy...

You say that as if your theism is your only chance to be happy. You don't have to believe in the supernatural in order to be happy.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2010, 12:34:16 PM »
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*Looks around for a snake, pauses and shrugs* Just because one uses a rhetorical tool called sarcasm, which Pony uses quite well, doesn't mean one's life isn't fulfilled. Dealing with people that irrationally hold on to fixed beliefs due to a biased upbringing on a daily basis can and will slowly wear one's fuse down. That's why the advice "Take all things in moderation" applies to religious debate as well.

Oh, definitely. Also, I don't deny his skill. I just notice the joy it seems to give him. Basically I am responding to his accusations with "it takes one to recognize one".

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You say that as if your theism is your only chance to be happy. You don't have to believe in the supernatural in order to be happy.

Nah, I wouldn't go that far. I don't need any specific religion. But the belief in supernatural is a different thing. I have a lot of imagination but it has its drawdacks - books give me great joy and I even write some short stories occassionally but imagination can work against me too. Like each time I am waiting for the results of my annual health test ( When I was 16 it turned out Tzernobyl had busted my thyroid gland. I had a close brush with cancer) I don't want to find myself in the situation where all the 'negative' examples have some rational basis while all the positive ones can be proven false.

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2010, 04:47:15 PM »
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It is what you believe and it defines your behaviour patters. Looks like a system to me but in the end that's arguing about semantics.

Braininthejar, you present yourself as a theist then an unhappy atheist. It seems to me you are the one true believer in nothing. I don't understand why you try to decieve people, but just so you know, no one here is fooled, well except for you.
God, doesn't know pi.

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2010, 05:25:19 PM »
How can one be a believer in nothing? And no. This second me is the real one. I'd be really pitiful if I had nothing better to do than trolling you for four days straight

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2010, 05:26:36 PM »
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No, it's not my standard, it's what you say you cannot attain, big boy. Too bad. There's always playing pretend on an internet forum, to illicit an ego-sating pity party, though.

So much venom... Happy people with fulfilling lives rarely grow that snarky. Don't make me doubt all those wonderful things you have written about yourself...

Indignation. Of course. What other option do you have, other than to have it set in that you have comported yourself like a child. As I have often stated, intellectual honesty, it's not easy, as is bearing the fruit of your own poor behaviour.

You want to be coddled? You picked the wrong forum. How does this work out in your ego-fantasy anyway? You lie and make hasty assumptions, generalizations and negative comments about strangers, then they gather around you for a group hug, because they realize your true genius?

LOL &)

 

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Odin

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2010, 05:27:42 PM »
Living with the knowledge that you will inevitably cease to exist is worse than any fear of hell I might have experienced as a christian. Totally not worth the few benefits that being an atheist gives.

Brain,

That is exactly the fear that drove me to participate in this site.  It has taken me some time to get used to the idea that I will someday blip into non-existence.  It is a bad feeling, but you can get used to it. 

Is it really better to live your life as if you will not?  Is is better to build temples to Zeus, and congregate with people who do that?  I don't really think so.

One bit of comfort comes from the idea, can't remember who said it, that "I was dead for the past 13 billion years or so, and I don't remember it hurting.  It can't hurt to be dead for another 13 billion years."

It also breeds the idea of making the best of this life.  Because, there sure ain't a better one coming.

Odin, King of the Gods


Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2010, 05:38:49 PM »
Mark Twain
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline anthony_retford

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2010, 07:22:56 PM »
I don't understand the fear of oblivion. As was mentioned I don't remember anything before I was born and won't again after I die. Oblivion is a lot more comforting than worrying about if you are going to spend an eternity in some hellacious furnace and let that fear dictate how you should spend your life. I will leave at least 5 children and they will remember me from time to time, but if they don't it won't affect me or make me sad. My grandchildren may think of me once in while, but it doesn't matter if they don't. Their children will hardly ever think of me just as I don't really think of my great-grandparents, although I can remember them faintly. Their parents I have no idea about but I am sure my ignorance has no effect.

The earth will snuff out in 4 billion years or so, and the universe in 11 or 12 billion, so it is all relative. Nothing lasts - everything changes.
People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe.
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2010, 07:49:04 PM »
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Indignation. Of course. What other option do you have, other than to have it set in that you have comported yourself like a child. As I have often stated, intellectual honesty, it's not easy, as is bearing the fruit of your own poor behaviour.

You really do like it... Still, you have written me into a corner. I could respond to this with another comment (thus proving that you hit the right spot) or leave without a comment (with pretty much the same result as it would show that I ran out of arguments.) Guess its a checkmate for you then.

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Is is better to build temples to Zeus, and congregate with people who do that?  I don't really think so.

This is moot I am afraid. Faith, like love, is not really our choice. I can't just decide to stop being an atheist.

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I don't understand the fear of oblivion. As was mentioned I don't remember anything before I was born and won't again after I die. Oblivion is a lot more comforting than worrying about if you are going to spend an eternity in some hellacious furnace and let that fear dictate how you should spend your life. I will leave at least 5 children and they will remember me from time to time, but if they don't it won't affect me or make me sad. My grandchildren may think of me once in while, but it doesn't matter if they don't. Their children will hardly ever think of me just as I don't really think of my great-grandparents, although I can remember them faintly. Their parents I have no idea about but I am sure my ignorance has no effect.

The earth will snuff out in 4 billion years or so, and the universe in 11 or 12 billion, so it is all relative. Nothing lasts - everything changes.

And since the current calculations need things like dark matter for all the math to match the theories, we might still turn out to be completely wrong about the nature of the universe. I hope that one gets solved in my lifetime.

I like the quote. Here is a bunch of other ones. Perhaps you will find some of them worth remembering. http://thinkexist.com/quotations/death_and_dying/

As for your question, I think the one that best describes my problem is this one:

 “I am convinced that it is not the fear of death, of our lives ending that haunts our sleep so much as the fear... that as far as the world is concerned, we might as well never have lived.”

In the scope of the universe, the whole of humanity is not even a footnote.

Offline Odin

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2010, 12:03:23 AM »
This is moot I am afraid. Faith, like love, is not really our choice. I can't just decide to stop being an atheist.


Oh, but that is the one thing that is our choice.  I CHOOSE to live my life in the bright light of freethought, instead of in the darkness of superstition.  I CHOOSE not to have faith in the ancient mythologies. 

My favorite Bible verse is also my conversion verse.  1 Corinthians 13:11 (NIV) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

For me, Odin, that means I no longer believe in ghosts.

Odin, King of the Gods

Offline blahsphemer

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2010, 10:21:02 PM »
howdy Braininthejar

When you say
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God has given us all the tools we need to end hunger
do you mean that magical basket Jesus had that could supply a never ending supply of fish and loafs.
You wouldn't know where i could get one do you?
The reason why i ask is because I'm a 50yr. old homeless guy who could really use a steady supply of food.
  <<the kind of christian woman i like.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2010, 05:59:59 AM »
Brain, the problem here is this:

I am an atheist and I hate it.

...you said.  But only after previously saying....

God can decide people's afterlife. And only he can create life. Unlike everyone else, he can make sure a person actually benefits from dying. So, he is the only one who can kill without automatically being evil.
.....
If you live, its because you have a part of (Jesus) in you. Cannibalism is a horrible sin exactly because it is a mockery of what he does.

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I didn't see a single answer to any question. All I saw is assumptions, presumptions, and more questions. They weren't of very high quality either as the have already been posed and answered numerous times.

So when an atheist comes up with theories and asks questions, its called science but when a theist does it its a proof that he doesn't know what he is talking about? :)

I thought I explained it. Every living thing has a bit of God in it. This procedure allows those who want a stronger connection with God to take in more.

Even if being dead is better my life serves a purpose. Its a stage that cannot be skipped unless God himself decides otherwise.


In other words, you portrayed yourself as a believer, answering questions as a beliver.  Then, when the questions started getting tough, all of a sudden you are "really" an atheist playing devil's advocate.  That, I think, is the problem people have with you - nobody knows what you really believe.  That's why you're getting sarcasm and coldness.  It's also why you're not getting satisfactory answers to your questions - because nobody can be sure how to pitch them so you'll understand the answers.

One thing we don't like much on this forum - hell, that people don't like in real life - is strangers who turn up, lie about who and what they are, and make like they are far more intelligent than everyone else.  Take a breath, think about what YOU would think if someone new entered your social group and behaved in that way.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline ksm

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2010, 08:16:21 AM »
One thing we don't like much on this forum - hell, that people don't like in real life - is strangers who turn up, lie about who and what they are, and make like they are far more intelligent than everyone else.  Take a breath, think about what YOU would think if someone new entered your social group and behaved in that way.

In fact Brain this behaviour that Anfauglir has described is probably the worst way possible to behave on this forum.

Online velkyn

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2010, 04:35:37 PM »
Ok, I think that's enough.
I entered this site for several reasons.
1 I had seen some flaming by atheists on youtube. I know the comments on youtube often contain flame but it kind of made a bad impression so I wanted to see how you really are. Doesn't look bad as far as I can see. Nearly all of you have manners.
By supposedly being an atheist yourself, you should have known this from your own example. Hmmmmm....
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2 I wanted to participate in a serious discussion, which I hadn't done in some time. But there is no discussion if both sides agree. So, I needed to take the opposite view, even if I knew it was the losing side and in the end I couldn't answer to all the arguments. (I think I did quite well on the philosophical side, though I might have committed some heresies in the process. Its that pesky slavery that left me completely stuck)
I'm sorry but I very much doubt this claim.  I have seen too many theists claim that they are atheists after being trounched on the forums, to save face.
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3 I wanted to find out if I could be one of you. And the answer is no. You still creep me out.

ah, lovely baseless personal attacks. 
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I was planning to give a small lecture here about how delusions of various sorts are a part of human nature, some of them pretty much hardwired into our brain and a side effect of our ability of abstract thinking. But I will now skip it and get to the point.
Most of us know all about that. It's probably just as well as you skipped it.
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I am an atheist and I hate it.
Living with the knowledge that you will inevitably cease to exist is worse than any fear of hell I might have experienced as a christian. Totally not worth the few benefits that being an atheist gives. I still harbour some delusions about afterlife, quite delibarately so. They keep me from going quite emo. (helps that I have a friend who has had a near-death experience, complete with white light and a "non-blatant miracle" recovery - though I have heard there are some neuro-biologists trying to take it away from people too)
 
Sorry to hear that.  Most of us don't feel that way.  Given my doubts, I think you are trying to make up a atheist who doesn't like being one to show us how "wrong" it really is.  And boo-hoo, how dare that scientists show facts and remove mistaken beliefs. 
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Preventing religions from doing evil is a just cause and it is true that no atrocities are commited in the name of atheism (well, not since the Soviet Union anyway, and there it was just a part of a larger ideology) But besides that I find you no different. You preach (if life is so prescious, don't you have more fulfilling things to do than argue with theists who only get angry at your arguments?) , you take something from people giving little in return (science isn't a product of atheism even if some great inventors were atheists) and looking down on people with different beliefs is a part of your belief system.

and ah, the mistaken claim about the Soviet Union and atheism and the attempt to whine that "atheists are just like theists so you can't critizise them".  Lovely.  Science is a product of questioning what religions have claimed about the universe. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2010, 05:23:44 AM »
Summary - Braininthejar 
Last Active:  Yesterday at 08:33:08 PM

Brain, I'm looking forward to your response to my post.  And Velkyn's which you will have read by the time you read this....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2010, 06:12:20 AM »
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Oh, but that is the one thing that is our choice.  I CHOOSE to live my life in the bright light of freethought, instead of in the darkness of superstition.  I CHOOSE not to have faith in the ancient mythologies.

I am not convinced. I think this has a lot to do with the discussion on whether there is a free will - if we ever make any choice or is "making a decision" something we experience as our brain does the calculations and gets to the only conclusion possible with the data received. You say you make a choice of not believing any god. But could you decide otherwise if you wanted? Would you be able to sincerely believe if any of them? If not, there in not really a choice. You come to a conclusion.

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do you mean that magical basket Jesus had that could supply a never ending supply of fish and loafs.
You wouldn't know where i could get one do you?
The reason why i ask is because I'm a 50yr. old homeless guy who could really use a steady supply of food.

So, you are a homeless 50yr. old with access to the net? It turns out very ironic once you read the whole thread.

Well, I'll play along for a second so I cana nswer your question. What I mean is not magic. With the current level of technology, nearly every country could easily produce more food then they need. Countries that suffer from constant famine are usually screwed over by politics and economy much harder than by any nature/climate- related issues.

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In other words, you portrayed yourself as a believer, answering questions as a beliver.  Then, when the questions started getting tough, all of a sudden you are "really" an atheist playing devil's advocate.  That, I think, is the problem people have with you - nobody knows what you really believe.  That's why you're getting sarcasm and coldness.  It's also why you're not getting satisfactory answers to your questions - because nobody can be sure how to pitch them so you'll understand the answers.

One thing we don't like much on this forum - hell, that people don't like in real life - is strangers who turn up, lie about who and what they are, and make like they are far more intelligent than everyone else.  Take a breath, think about what YOU would think if someone new entered your social group and behaved in that way.

The questions never "got tougher" - the ones I knew I couldn't answer had been there from the very start. And I don't resent people being cold to me. Actually, Pony excluded, I seem to have got much friendlier reactions as a manipulative atheist than as a "honest christian" - but that might be my subjective perception.

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In fact Brain this behaviour that Anfauglir has described is probably the worst way possible to behave on this forum.

Second worse I think. I don't think I have commited any bannable offense yet.

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By supposedly being an atheist yourself, you should have known this from your own example. Hmmmmm....

Supposedly? So you suspect I am theist who pretends to be an atheist to troll people when he runs out of arguments? Please apply Occam's razor. You are right on the manners part though.

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I'm sorry but I very much doubt this claim.  I have seen too many theists claim that they are atheists after being trounched on the forums, to save face.

Ok, forget the razor. This is weird... How do you know it was this and not the other way round? I mean I would be more inclined to believe they were like me than the alternative - I can hardly imagine someone can fail that hard at being a theist - especially since internet is very good at protecting your face ( in both senses of the word.)

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ah, lovely baseless personal attacks.


It isn't baseless, though the problem might be in me. You are a walking "memento mori" to me.

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Sorry to hear that.  Most of us don't feel that way.  Given my doubts, I think you are trying to make up a atheist who doesn't like being one to show us how "wrong" it really is.  And boo-hoo, how dare that scientists show facts and remove mistaken beliefs. 

As I said before: if humans were creatures of logic, democracy would work. We cannot function without them. Some hinder us in significat ways and those need to be dropped. But why rob us of the ones that only bring us comfort? There doesn't seem to be any practical allpication to the results of such research.

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and ah, the mistaken claim about the Soviet Union and atheism and the attempt to whine that "atheists are just like theists so you can't critizise them".  Lovely.  Science is a product of questioning what religions have claimed about the universe.

I have stated it was just a part of the ideology, didn't I? Also, many famous scientists started as clergy.

Need to go now - You might wait for me to come back and elaborate on the last point or just post now and I will do it next time.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:07:07 AM by Braininthejar »

Offline DVZ3

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »

 ^^^ I think your brain needs to poop, bacause it's full of shit...  And the only irony in this thread is your name... Your brain is definately in a jar!
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Omen

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2010, 12:06:22 PM »
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Are you now admitting that miracles do not occur?

No, merely that they wouldn't be "miracles" if they occured predictably. "You will not test your God" and all that.

Then you can't say:

"Because either he'd heal only some of them (Which you would certainly find injust) or all (in which case you would consider regrowing limbs another scientific fact and not even be grateful. In that case question 1 would still be asked only about some other condition.)"

Because you can't describe a condition where a miracle occurs which impacts all, you're simply pleading an excuse then trying to rationalze it away after the obvious is pointed out about the rhetorical merit of the question WWGHA.

The fantastic thing about WWGHA is its ability to demonstrate where miracles do not occur and are not claimed to occur, that is that miracles are only claimed in the obscurity of the evidence around them.   Whether it never actually be diagnosed, the body is completely capable of recovering, or some other example.. the fact is that any miracle claim necessitates the vague.

The only way to get around the question is to admit that no miracles occur, because if you plead an exception for amputees then we only need to look for the same exception elsewhere.. which obviously doesn't reflect that truth.

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God could provide us with the absolute tool to end hunger absolutely.  Either god is stupid and doesn't realize the tools provided will not be enough or are inappropriate, or god doesn't exist. So which is it? You really only have these two options.

Your answer is a frequent apologetic: God has a greater purpose.  Ignoring the ignorant fallacy of presuming a god then assigning a tautology such as god has a greater purpose, lets address the philosophical/logical implications.

One. God is again an idiot.  There is no purpose or goal that 'god' can have that can't be attained instantly.  Nothing.  By gods very own nature, it can do anything and have anything.

Two.  That only leaves one possibility, god wants suffering.

Three. Since god has the ultimate capability to do anything, with or without suffering - then suffering serves no purpose.  Therefore, you can't say that god has a greater purpose because no greater purpose can exist unless you directly contradict gods nature. ( and therefore god doesn't exist )


Irony: this is exactly the outcome you say ( as a theist ) is gods greater purpose.  IE Heaven.

Plus, the criticism has nothing to do with what we want or expect.  This has to do with dealing with parameters existent if a god exists.  Which leads back to the question of suffering, which leads you to claiming god does it for a greater purpose, which leads us to pointing out that a greater purpose can't exist that doesn't negate gods nature, and which leads us back to here.

Oh, the 'logically God must be evil' card.

At no point did I say God is evil.  While the argument from evil from epicuris is the obvious first questions, the answer of a 'greater purpose' does nothing but present a red herring to the argument from evil.  Which necessitates the next question which points out that the greater purpose is as relevant to the question of evil as evil itself.

Let's watch you plead a nonsensical answer.

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I expected it to be played but perhaps not so soon. The answer is the paradox of perfection. If something is perfect, it is as good as it could possibly be. Thus, a perfect thing cannot change, unless it is for the worse.

Irrelevant qualification that explains no 'paradox' or 'problem'.  You simply make this descriptive claim without any follow up as to how it applies in analogy to what is being claimed above or what you follow it up with.

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Yes, God could 'snap his fingers', fix all the evil in the world and call it a day.

And he doesn't because?

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And then what? An eternity of nothing happening.

How is heaven any less of an eternity of nothing happening?

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All your achievements pointless because all has already been done for you.

Achievements are pointless with or without existence, the bible even makes that quite clear and your argument precludes this very fact.  All that matters is that you believe and that's it.

There would be no contention to have achievement against, as in nothing to oppose that would require achievement.  Equally, the end purpose you claim god is headed towards includes as you described as,"An eternity of nothing.."  Not to mention your presenting a dichotomy of achievements in life vs no-achievements in heaven.

That sounds even more ridiculously illogical then claiming that a perfect being has a purpose that it has to do anything less then instantly to achieve.

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And yes, Heaven is such a 'perfect world'.

Then you do not have an argument, you're essentially contradicting yourself and not really answering the problem.  The problem is that god can have whatever 'greater purpose' god wants, with or without existence as we know it.  Hence that logically makes existence meaningless, there are no achievements that have meaning, nothing we do that matters, and the end result is one of a completely random selection of those who believe and goto heaven and those who do not and goto hell.

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If we were placed there straight away, in eternal bliss, it would be completely meaningless.

Its meaningless with or without life, the end result is the same.  In fact, it makes existence even MORE meaningless as to the claims attributed to heaven involve changing our very nature anyway.

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Life gives it meaning by giving us some obstacles to overcome so that those of us who get there know that they have earned it. This is also the reason why free will is so important.

Irrelevant, a god could snap his fingers and the exact same people who would have gotten there and knew they earned it would instantly be there and know exactly why they are there.

Just as the people who goto hell to torture for eternity, existing in some form of life would be as pointless to them as it would be not having some existence in life.

Again, you're simply pleading more excuses for a contradiction you can't explain.

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And no, solving only some problems of the world would change nothing because human perception is subjective. After one generation they would stop being happy about it and just measure their world according to the new norm.

Irrelevant, the end 'greater purpose' and 'heaven' presumes a context of existence where nothing short of perfect doesn't occur.  God could have this instantly with or without 'free will' or any change whatsoever making any prior existence pointless to the end result.

You are essentially admitting that free will doesn't exist in heaven and have previously described a dichotomy that would make heaven an 'eternity of nothing'.

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No.

He did. All that Jezus stuff. With the arguments you give, you must have read it.

No, it requires a presumption that myth is true or relevant to reality.  It isn't.

The answer is obviously no.

Plus, I have read it.  Nothing in the christian claim of fullfilled prophecy has anything to do with actual Judaic messianic prophecy, that's why jews are still around because nothing jesus does is actually relevant to what the torah claims of the messiah.  What christian apologist did and writers for the later christian doctrines, was to essentially create prophecies were none existed and totally abandoned any of the actual judaic prophecies.  Most of which are simply shrugged off as 'being fullfilled in the second coming'.

Equally, the bible is an incoherent mess of different doctrines from multiple cultures based on multiple interpretive views.  Claiming one of them to be objectively true is a grossly dishonest and arrogant.

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No one owns me, regardless of the amount of debt I owe them.  I can lose all my possessions, all my material things, and yet.. no debtor can take 'me'.

Then perhaps you are more free than most people. My father hanged himself because of a debt. (He was pretty much an atheist in case you are curious)

If you live inside the united states your father could have filed for bankruptcy, consolidated debt, or sought some financial help.

He didn't, he killed himself as you described.

Now, do you realize how arrogant your dismissal of what slavery is.. actually is?  You've completely devalued one of the most horrific human conditions still relevant in the world today to a point where you're trying to obscurely rationalize an idiotic superstitious belief system.  You did so purposefully to defend the irrational, in ignorance of how slavery exists and to what manner it promotes human suffering.

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Free will would be pointless with or without god making its existence known.

Plus the logical and philosophical implications are so egregiously stupid that it really just deserves ridicule.  A thing that exists but is not known, wants you to believe it exists without being capable of knowing it exists or else it will punish you for not believing it exists.  The result is an entirely random selection of people who believe and those who do not, usually divided by intelligence and education level.  It would be the equivalent of just randomyl selecting who goes to heaven and randomly selecting who goes to hell.

Any philosophy can be turned absurd if you describe it in the right way.

False.  Anything and everything is certainly capable of being analyzed for inconsistencies, while nothing is absolutely perfect the key goal of any kind of intellectual analysis is to determine what claims in that system are logically coherent to their premises as they are presented.

Making this statement for example is an attempt to build a qualifier that you will use to dismiss what I'm pointing out to you.

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(For example, if atheism is right, you have several decades ahead of you and then you will die and crumble to dust, gone as if never born, making all your experiences and achievements ultimately meaningless.

That's not a very good example because I have no premise that 'meaning' means anything beyond what I make it.  So what exactly are you describing that is absurd?  What premise are you addressing?

If I think meaning to be nothing more then living my life to the benefit of others and myself, then I have done so whether or not I've died.

However, you claim a religious belief system with a supernatural being capable of anything.. that creates an existence that as an analogy would be the equivalent in meaning to playing with ants.  Sort of like a child that plays with an ant hill that has the magical ability to create ants in any condition it so wants.  The child sits there for awhile pouring water on the ant mound and burning them with a magnifying glass in order to force them out of the mound and into another one, yet the child had the capability to simply snap its fingers and make the ants just pop into existence in the new mound.

The end result is the only relevant meaningful goal, which makes any in between condition that doesn't achieve that relevant goal anything short of instant pointless.

So you really only have a few options as I described:

1. God is an idiot and therefore not omniscient and not a god.
2. God doesn't exist
3. God does whatever god wants, while this could be an answer this makes god completely inseparable from random chance.  It makes the greater purpose pointless, existence pointless ( except for what you make of it ), and even believing in a god pointless.

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The same goes for any people who could inherit the benefits of your achievements only it will take a bit longer. Universe has a lot of time and won't even notice humanity gone. Yet you purposefully ignore that fact that makes your behaviour illogical.

What makes my behavior illogical?  You havn't described any condition where my behavior contradicts my premises.

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All those things you do matter because you decide they do - but that leaves us with "My life has meaning because I feel it does, despite scientific evidence to the contrary"...)

If I create my own meaning then you can't say there is scientific evidence to the contrary.  I create my own meaning, science is irrelevant to that.

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I suppose we will return to this one later as it deserves a longer discussion.

I predict you no more understand the gross fallacy of what your claiming them you seem to understand what is illogical vs logical.

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Countless others claim this.

Some of them are really special. Others are deluded. I am pretty sure Christ wouldn't appear in a bowl of cereal.

Irrelevant.  Anyone can make any claim with some regard to evidence as you do.  Leprechauns, Jesus, Santa, Mohammed, it doesn't matter.. you're asking a question that presumes a context to be true that you can't demonstrate.

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That doesn't answer the question why.

I thought I explained it. Every living thing has a bit of God in it. This procedure allows those who want a stronger connection with God to take in more. Or have I misunderstood your question?

I could babble endless about the leprechauns who push the moon around the earth and they are invisible .. so on etc nonsense bullshit.

But nothing explains why.  Just as simply babbling about the magical superstitious fantasy of your mythology doesn't tell me why.

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I actually disagree with the statistic, christians get divorced MORE then atheist.  ( the non-christians statistic includes other groups )

If you question the data given in the question, I cannot give an answer that would make sense. You will have to link some research results or something.

I'm already familiar with the research, atheist are slightly less likely to get divorced and it gradually increases up towards 27-33% when you average it out for everyone.

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Ok, I think its enough answers for one evening. Time to get some rest.

I'm not sure you understand that you really didn't answer anything.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2010, 12:22:33 PM »
Brain, the problem here is this:

I am an atheist and I hate it.

...you said.  But only after previously saying....

God can decide people's afterlife. And only he can create life. Unlike everyone else, he can make sure a person actually benefits from dying. So, he is the only one who can kill without automatically being evil.
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If you live, its because you have a part of (Jesus) in you. Cannibalism is a horrible sin exactly because it is a mockery of what he does.

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I didn't see a single answer to any question. All I saw is assumptions, presumptions, and more questions. They weren't of very high quality either as the have already been posed and answered numerous times.

So when an atheist comes up with theories and asks questions, its called science but when a theist does it its a proof that he doesn't know what he is talking about? :)

I thought I explained it. Every living thing has a bit of God in it. This procedure allows those who want a stronger connection with God to take in more.

Even if being dead is better my life serves a purpose. Its a stage that cannot be skipped unless God himself decides otherwise.


In other words, you portrayed yourself as a believer, answering questions as a beliver.  Then, when the questions started getting tough, all of a sudden you are "really" an atheist playing devil's advocate.  That, I think, is the problem people have with you - nobody knows what you really believe.  That's why you're getting sarcasm and coldness.  It's also why you're not getting satisfactory answers to your questions - because nobody can be sure how to pitch them so you'll understand the answers.

One thing we don't like much on this forum - hell, that people don't like in real life - is strangers who turn up, lie about who and what they are, and make like they are far more intelligent than everyone else.  Take a breath, think about what YOU would think if someone new entered your social group and behaved in that way.

Braininthejar, you need to clarify your actual position, if you have one.

Are you actually an atheist?
Are you actually a theist?

If you are an atheist, then I for one would not be interested in discussing anything about your god-belief with you, because not only is "god" imaginary in that case, but the god-belief itself is then also imaginary.

If you are a theist, then why did you lie about being an atheist?  (actually, this applies in the other direction in the other case, since you lied one way or the other).
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: Another attempt to answer.
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2010, 05:00:56 PM »
This is where Braininthejar is going with his arguments. Oddly enough it is also his position on any issue he brings up.   edit: sams
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 05:02:40 PM by ReasonIsOutToLunch »
God, doesn't know pi.