Author Topic: Are there extreme atheists?  (Read 3855 times)

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Offline Blackfish100

Re: Are there extreme atheists?
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2008, 01:11:36 AM »

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Definitions aren't what I'm asking for.  I'm asking for evidence.  Your point is an abstraction till data shows up and we can start discussing reality.

You are asking for evidence of extremism in atheism?

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As for DD ... has he advocated violence or institutional bigotry?  If he has, cite a specific reference and we can get out of this navel gazing nonsense.

I don't think this is navel gazing at all; extremism is a matter of fact and one which affects all people. I also question if the characteristics you cite are necessarily those of extremism.  Extremism is not always violent.  DD does not cite violence and there are extremist groups wanting peaceful implementation of extremist regimes, such as the world caliph movement in Indonesia.  Although all extremists are bigoted towards those who hold opposing views to them, they do not always support the institutionalization of their hatred.  Some simply hate as a response to their perceived enemies.

I believe my definitions cover extremism uniquely.  Them being that extremists cannot consider alternative points and those they consider all opposition to be diametrically wrong.  I believe DD has demonstrated both these characteristics in his treatment of the user generousgeorge, specifically his perceived total moral righteousness.  While painting GG as a total villain like caricature of lies and deceit. Secondly, in his posts regarding the topic of humility, citing that humility is for the weak and not accepting the reasonable scientific application of humility in order to be proven wrong.  This indicates that DD always considers himself correct without any acknowledgement of possibility wrongness or the possibility of viable alternatives to his points.

Offline Mar

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Re: Are there extreme atheists?
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2008, 01:13:08 AM »
Yes, there are extreme atheists. One term you will often see is "militant atheist." Some of these atheists believe that atheists are better than theists. And some want religion to be completely eradicated and fight to "end" it. (i.e. no personal religious beliefs) They are as rigid in their beliefs as extreme theists.

Regular atheists:
1. Think that people should be able to practice their religion provided they aren't forcing their religion onto others. They may or may not think religion is stupid/pointless.
2. Do not think they are somehow superior to theists.
3. Do not have extreme views about theists. ("All theists are ____.")
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:18:46 AM by Mar »
On Permanent Hiatus. :D

Offline Hermes

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Re: Are there extreme atheists?
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2008, 06:35:05 AM »
I don't think this is navel gazing at all; extremism is a matter of fact and one which affects all people. I also question if the characteristics you cite are necessarily those of extremism. 

Necessary, no.  Yet I'm sure that there are some Girl Scouts that have yelled at other Girl Scouts in anger or said things that may seem unfair.

Violence and institutional bigotry get beyond normal human personalities and into substantial impact on others.

What you're complaining about in DD is that he expresses his opinion vigorously.   Yet, he does so using words that are open to debate in the forums -- and GG has defended his position quite vigorously as well.

Still, without evidence we have nothing to talk about but your opinion.  Sorry, that's getting less and less interesting.   If you've got nothing and will post nothing I'm done here.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline spider

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Re: Are there extreme atheists?
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2008, 07:23:07 PM »
Blackfish - Yes or No:  do you believe in any gods* or goddesses*?

 
    * - where god/goddess refers to a deity that:
    • is transcendental
    • has some sort of responsibility for existence, such as a creator
    • has some kind of divine authority, particularly over the souls of beings within the universe
    • is conscious and has the ability to intervene in the universe
    • is supernatural
Hello Spider

I am a Buddhist and therefore do not believe in a God.  Buddhists believe that Buddha was a mortal man and not a God.

I am not opposed to the belief in a God however.  Buddha taught that everyone makes their own paths and that we are to respect those paths, even if we disagree with them.  I respect God belief in others; but I find it unnecessary in my own path.

Thank you for your question.
[/list]
Thanks for answering.  This clarification is pertinent. You understand that you are actually an atheist.   I think this was pointed out to you already by either Goodkat or Hermes, but I want to elaborate on this.

   Whatever you think about other people's belief in god, your opposition or support of it, your respect, are additions beyond your atheism and not a necessary consequence of it.    The same goes for any antipathy or just an intellectual opposition to theism.    Antitheists are  usually atheists, but that doesn't mean atheists are antitheists.    Apples are usually red, but red things aren't defined as apples.

The reason I say this is because if your respect and compassion for theism is in the extreme - as I would imagine is the ideal in Buddhism following the example of boddhisattvas like Quan Yin or Avalokiteshvara, then if we follow your reasoning, you would also be an extreme atheist.  And sure, that works, you're an atheist with something extreme about you.    However, technically this is misleading because your views on theists are little to do with your lack of belief in god and more to do with your belief system as a Buddhist or just your own personality. 

By the same token, if Davedave is in deed an extreme antitheist, either violently so or just as a matter of strong intellectual, moral or political opposition, it's because of his own opinions and beliefs, not because of lack of belief.  It's easy to call that an "extreme atheist", but to be perfectly honest, I think  what you're asking about here is "extreme antitheism".

If your definition of extremism requires advocation of violence, then Davedave, from what I've read from him, is no extremist, not even as an antitheist. 

For the record, I'm also an antitheist and I've called myself a militant atheist at times to illustrate that point, but I do not by any means advocate the initiation of violence.  I've been accused of being too weak, too tolerant, and I've accused of being intolerant.  This isn't a contradiction - what's "extreme" seems to be decided relative to what's considered moderate, but as soon as you discover something beyond what you used to know as "extreme", it moves the standards along.   So if you think Davedave is extreme now in his ideas, I'd be happy to show you some religious extremists to put it into perspective.  They don't wear balaclavas or wield machine guns like the extremists we see on the news, but their ideas advocate means well beyond what I've heard Davedave propose.   I think it's put my qualms about being too "extreme" into perspective.

Offline Davedave

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Re: Are there extreme atheists?
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2008, 01:05:02 PM »
I think that Blackfish100's point is that calling a liar a liar is just too extreme.  It's so extreme, you can't even directly address the person.  I like how completely closed Blackfish100's mind is to any view that is not his own.  Blackfish, did you say you were from Vietnam and your grandfather was a GI?