Author Topic: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god  (Read 2047 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2014, 03:58:46 PM »
Does the verse says that it must be immediate when you want it?
That is what it says.  There is no if, ands or buts.
And
The bible says ask and ye shall receive. When. God is ready.
Doesn't those 2 phrases of yours contradict each other?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2014, 08:13:06 AM »
That was that phone.  You know I'm arguing the exact opposite.  Funny that thought never crossed your mind even after I said I was having difficulty with phone.

My stand is the passage that says ask and ye shall receive is unconditional.  That our basic needs will be given to us just like it is given to the sparrow.  It is not.  If you don't have money you don't have manna fall from heaven.  You starve.  Your body will eat itself until you are dead.  It's a terrible death. 

Why would God not answer the prayer for food before death.  That on God's time saying is a cop out.  I believe God only answers prayers that strengthens the spirit not the flesh.  In other words God will give the starving man the strength to give up the flesh and comfort

In what way pray tell have you proven my perspective of God to be cruel?

You are a dishonest man for saying so.  Isn't there something called do not bare false witness?

I can not debate a dishonest man.  Game over.










Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #118 on: August 18, 2014, 04:35:04 PM »
I am having trouble understanding your answer since I don't know what it written on a phone or what is not written on the phone so I will ask again.
Does the verse says that you must receive immediately what you asked for when you want it? Why?
To help you with your quotes here is the passage again :
"1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
"
I really don't see it anywhere. How can you understand that you would receive what you want immediately when you want it and not when God want to give it to you (at a more appropriate time)?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2014, 06:56:10 AM »
Please point out to me where it is explained how and when your request will be answered.  It doesn't.  That's why so many people lose their faith.  Especially if that prayer is to heal a dying child.

The bible does not support your claim "a more appropriate time".  It is a man made excuse.

Can you not apologize for your deception?

Like you know, I'm sorry JB I know I haven't proved your God to be cruel. 

You missed 2 questions.  I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer mine.

Quote
In what way pray tell have you proven my perspective of God to be cruel?

You are a dishonest man for saying so.  Isn't there something called do not bare false witness?


Verse 11 certainly implies God is generous with gifts.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:05:26 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2014, 04:51:32 PM »
That's the point junebug. The passage doesn't say that you will be answered immediately and you still use the fact that God doesn't answer immediately as a proof that Religion is bad. Or, the way I understand it, you say that "God is cruel" because he doesn't give you what you want when you want.
Does the verse says that it must be immediate when you want it?
That is what it says.  There is no if, ands or buts.
The quote above is what makes me think that you believe in a cruel God.
And yes. there is something in the Bible about baring false witness. We shouldn't do such things. That is what religion teach us Catholic.
You know Catholics? Those who YOU claim will DESTROY God... :)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2014, 06:16:47 AM »
Please define cruel.  Please.  You talk about demons possessing abused children and you think that thought is cruel.  You think God loves us with conditions; I say God loves us unconditionally.  Unperfect just the way we were made.

cru·el
?kro?o?l
adjective

1. willfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it.
adjective: cruel; comparative adjective: crueller; superlative adjective: cruellest; comparative adjective: crueler; superlative adjective: cruelest
"people who are cruel to animals"
synonyms:   brutal, savage, inhuman, barbaric, barbarous, brutish, bloodthirsty, murderous, vicious, sadistic, wicked, evil, fiendish, diabolical, monstrous, abominable; More
antonyms:   compassionate


2.causing pain or suffering.
"the winters are long, hard, and cruel"
synonyms:   harsh, severe, bitter, harrowing, heartbreaking, heart-rending, painful, agonizing, traumatic; formal grievous
"her death was a cruel blow"


So either you do not know the definition of cruel or you bare false witness. 

Allowing demon possession=cruel
Answering a prayer to cure all dying children before they suffer=not cruel

You have failed to provide scripture that says "on God's time".  My claim stands strong, "your claim is man made".  Taught by MAN; by religion. 

Your perception of God is strong evidence that proves my claim, Religion destroys God. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2014, 01:46:23 PM »
You think God loves us with conditions;
No, I don't think that.
I say God loves us unconditionally.  Unperfect just the way we were made.
I totally agree with that.

Allowing demon possession=cruel
Answering a prayer to cure all dying children before they suffer=not cruel
So, if I understand correctly. The God you believe in cures all dying children before they suffer? Or do you believe that God is cruel?

You have failed to provide scripture that says "on God's time".  My claim stands strong, "your claim is man made".  Taught by MAN; by religion. 
You have failed to provide scripture that says "on human's time".
What is the claim you make that you think is standing strong?

Your perception of God is strong evidence that proves my claim, Religion destroys God. 
I believe that you don't know/understand my perception of God. That is why you should learn how to quote.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #123 on: August 21, 2014, 04:49:38 AM »
I know how to quote.  Shouldn't have to to have a conversation.  Quoting mucks up my post.  Most of what you say does not need to be repeated.

You have to be saved, believe in God and go to church.  You believe that.  Those are conditions.

No I don't think God is cruel for not answering prayers to cure our flesh.  We must save ourselves by like, not polluting the planet. 

You WON'T find anything cruel about my perception of God.

You have added words to the scripture that is just not there, on God's time.  The scripture does not say that.  You are adding words to explain why prayers don't get answered.  So either the bible is wrong or God is cruel.  I chose the bible is wrong and God is love. 

Considering vs. 11.  If I ask my dad for a cup of water he will get it for me right away.  He will not wait until I'm dehydrated to get the water.  If I need a coat for winter he will get me a coat before it gets cold.  Since the scripture says God's love is stronger than human love how do you come up with ; "on God's time"?  Verse 11 squashes that claim, 'on God's time', and you can't see it because you're religious instead of spiritual. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #124 on: August 21, 2014, 04:45:59 PM »
junebug72 I am still waiting for you to provide scripture that says "on human's time".
I do agree with you that the scripture do not tell us on Gods time.
Did you ever ask your dad for a cup of water when he is watching the game?
What about when you just drank a full cup of water?
You father in heaven (God) loves you very much so much that he is willing to not fulfill your prayer so that you "save yourself" just like in the story you told about the kid who asked God to cure his flesh and God told him "save yourself".
The Catholic perception of God is not cruel either.
I agree with you that if God was regarded as cruel by Catholic, they would destroy his image. Fortunately that is not the case.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2014, 05:23:58 AM »
The bible tells a story of a cruel God.  You use the bible for your religion don't you?  You believe Jesus was a sacrificial lamb.  You believe in demons and devils possessing people.

I think you can't see the cruelty because you're in too deep.  There is also the fact that Jesus said not to be religious! 

Will you please tell me what you think the difference is between religion and spiritual?

The verse vs. 11 supports my interpretation.  Just for the record lots of prayers don't get answered at all.  Like the ones from desperate parents wanting their child cured from cancer.  An earthly father would jump through hoops and fire to save his child.  I would give my life to save my son.  God's love is said to be stronger than that in vs. 11.  There is no greater act of love than to give your life for someone else. 

Why would I ask God for more water than I need?  Religion is not teaching people to pray appropriately if they are asking for more than they need.  God does not even feed starving children!!!  It is OUR responsibility to feed the children.  God put us in charge of this planet and we have just effed it up!!!  Religion has a lot to do with that.  All you have to do is learn some history to know that. 

Insanity=doing the same thing expecting a different result.  That's religion!  That's humanity! &)

It says 'ask and you shall receive'.  Since it does not say on God's time it must be human time.  Verse 11 supports that interpretation and it IS scripture.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2014, 12:34:58 PM »
It says 'ask and you shall receive'.  Since it does not say on human time it must be God's time.  Verse 11 supports that interpretation and it IS scripture.
As you can see this scripture is readable both ways. And if you understand the bible context in what it is written you realize that it is not when we want that we get what we want. The proof lies in the little kid not being cured when we want it.

Religion teaches you about God. Spirituality is revision. Just like in school.
Religion helps you understand the passages from the Bible that you might misinterpret because you lack the knowledge to interpret it correctly.
I do agree with you that the God described in the Old Testament is cruel. But Catholic religion will teach you that the Old Testament is not an historical book and that the event that took place in it are not facts. (i.e. God is not as described)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2014, 07:39:02 AM »
No the scripture is not readable both ways.  Neither is the scripture where Jesus taught how to pray.  The scripture contradicts itself.  Do you pray for whatever you want or do you pray the Lord's Prayer?

Religion teaches man's interpretation of the bible and there are thousands to chose from. 

I don't know any earthly father that would just stand and watch his children die.  He would do whatever he could.  Verse 11 says God's love is greater than that.  That's what it says and like it or not it destroys your "on God's time" excuse. 

Revelations is in the New Testament and it is the scariest thing ever written about a 'cruel' God. 

You can not have a New Testament w/o an Old Testament.  Jesus died because of the promise of a messiah made in the OT.  The ten commandments are in the OT.  Come on now.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #128 on: August 25, 2014, 12:59:53 PM »
Do you pray for whatever you want or do you pray the Lord's Prayer?
Both.
Religion teaches man's interpretation of the bible and there are thousands to chose from.
Yes that is true.
I don't know any earthly father that would just stand and watch his children die.  He would do whatever he could.  Verse 11 says God's love is greater than that. 
God love is so great that he leaves his children die? I'm not following you.

That's what it says and like it or not it destroys your "on God's time" excuse. 
No destroying here, I already agree that it doesn't say "on God's time". I just supporting that this interpretation comes from other parts of the bible and the fact that God do not cure the kid immediately.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2014, 07:48:26 AM »
I wonder why you would pray anything but the Lord's Prayer given to you by the Deity you chose to worship?

I think we agree that you can't just ask and receive whatever you want from God.  It is my claim that this promise made to us from Jesus is a major factor in Christians losing faith through trials, like say losing your legs.

My answer to the question why doesn't God answer prayers is this.  God hates religion.  God hates prayers for money or an empty parking place. 

I don't think God answers fleshly prayers only spiritual ones.  I believe God answers prayers for comfort, wisdom and courage.  You can get through anything with these three attributes.

Most of all I think God wants us to clean up our own mess, and we should.  There should be no cancer alleys.  Our food should be all natural.  If God cleans up the mess then humanity fails.  All of us theist, atheist all of us failures to our own race.

Immediately?  Thousands of children die every year from cancer.  It's humanities fault not God's.  I don't clean up your messes and you don't clean mine.  God should not have to save us when we are perfectly capable of saving ourselves.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2014, 10:32:38 AM »
I am Catholic and I agree with you, IF we were taught by religion that when we ask we would receive immediately what is asked THEN Religion would destroy God.
Fortunately this is not the case as I think you can understand now. This understanding of "ask and you shall receive " does not come from religion but from yourself as a fake counter argument.
Do we agree that it is not because Religion teachings about prayers that Religion will destroy God?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2014, 09:13:50 AM »
No I can not agree.

I am leaving this hell hole.  I wish you Love and wisdom Lukvance.  Enjoyed the talk.  Religion is harmless when combined with spirit.  Please don't forget to be spiritual while being religious.  Put LOVE first.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2014, 04:50:58 PM »
Ok. Bye
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