Author Topic: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread  (Read 47746 times)

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Offline kcrady

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2009, 10:17:54 PM »
Majesty, I would like to propose the following topic for the debate, with you arguing pro and me arguing con: "The God of the Christian Bible Exists."

If you would like a different topic, please propose it.  Since confusion is the enemy of purposeful thought, I ask that you phrase it in a way that refers to the specific god-concept you're actually arguing for.  I look forward to our debate!

I  would  love  to  debate  any  one  of  you  other people  in  here  after  my  victor over  KC.

Dunning-Kruger.

*Googles "Dunning-Kruger"*

LOL!
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2009, 10:26:10 PM »
4.  I  noticed some  other  individuals  in  here  want  to  participate  in the  debate  as  well.  I  am  skeptical  about  this,  because  correct  me  if  im  wrong,  that  would  mean  i  would  have  to  respond  to  many different  people,  and  that  will  kinda  throw  me  off.  I  like  to  be  locked  in  on  one  person,  maybe  two.  I  would  love  to  debate  any  one  of  you  other people  in  here  after  my  victor over  KC.

We're going to do a one-on-one now. You and kcrady. After that you can start another debate with more people.

Quote
5.  I  should  be  presenting  my  arguments  for  the  existence  of  God  tomorrow.

Please start in the debate thread when you return.

I may assign several regular members to help police the debate thread to keep it clean of errant member posts, because I know what is going to happen. Just call me clairvoyant.

Offline kcrady

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2009, 10:54:56 PM »
Oh, Majesty, would you mind if I post our debate on my blog, with all posts unedited?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Hermes

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2009, 11:03:12 PM »
*Googles "Dunning-Kruger"*

LOL!

Read the paper itself when you're able to .  Funny at first -- actually schadenfreude -- yet, humbling later.  Very good stuff.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2009, 11:05:47 PM »
I may assign several regular members to help police the debate thread to keep it clean of errant member posts, because I know what is going to happen. Just call me clairvoyant.

Is it acceptable to post a bookmark to that thread?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2009, 11:26:07 PM »
Maybe use the notification button instead... (it is "Notify" right next to the Reply button.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 11:36:24 PM by Agamemnon »
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Hermes

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2009, 11:52:25 PM »
Maybe use the notification button instead... (it is "Notify" right next to the Reply button.)

Does that send a PM, or does it just flag the thread as something for the Update Topics link?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2009, 12:02:08 AM »
It will send you an email when there is a new post. I've started using it rather than bookmarks for some things.

You can change the settings for it in your account profile under "Notifications and Email." It would be nice if there were options regarding how you would be notified, but there are no options that I am aware of.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Hermes

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2009, 01:27:50 AM »
Got it.  [gripe mode] That's kinda annoying.  SMF is the best foal on a parched field. [/gripe mode]
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Seppuku

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2009, 01:58:18 AM »
Quote
1. Everything  that  begins  to exist  has  a  cause
2. The  universe  exist
3. Therefore,  the  universe  has  a  cause

2 problems I would like to highlight.

First - allow me to reuse this logic:

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2. God exists (in your belief)
3. Therefore, God has a cause.

What caused God?

The second problem, might easily be highlighted by a typical response I've heard to the question, "what created God" and that is 'God has always existed'. That then flags the issue of 'begins to'. Did the Universe begin? If you're going to accept that God didn't begin - then why should matter, space and energy begin (or 'the components of the universe'? That may appear as strawman, but it doesn't matter which way you argue it, the second problem is the statement, "begins to", as it naturally assumes something about the Universe.

Has it been proven that the Universe has a beginning? For your statements to even be considered, I think that would be worth addressing, otherwise it just means that part of the argument is moot.

If we were to remove the qualifier, "begins to" then it solve that problem, so, "Everything that exists, has a cause. The Universe exists. The Universe has a cause." Problem number 1 would still exist - "what about God?" But problem number 2 is gone...but is replaced by problem number 3, which would be followed by the question, "does everything that exists have a cause?"

So I don't see how you could make that logical statement to work in order to bring me 'God'...at least not without proving statements that I sincerely doubt you could prove. (I wouldn't know where to begin in proving that the Universe has a cause or that the Universe began)
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline kcrady

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2009, 05:19:31 AM »
Since I'm having car trouble and expect to be out of town for most of the day tomorrow getting my chariot fixed, I've went ahead and posted my Opening Statement in the Debate thread a little early.  I hope Majesty doesn't find this objectionable (we hadn't discussed anything about who would post first though).
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline William

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2009, 05:35:09 AM »
I've went ahead and posted my Opening Statement in the Debate thread a little early. 

It reads rather well  :)   
Git mit uns

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2009, 05:56:11 AM »
Wuz  poppin  yall.  Would  like  to  point  out  a  few  things..

1.  I  guess  im  gonna  have  to  start  praticing  my  quoting.  

If you can't even quote text how can you prove a god exists?

:-\

HAL, you're such a renaissance man. Using method modding, by creating the very sort of post you will by deleting summarily in the debate.

Truly remarkable.

Send all deleted sigs to Pony for processing.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2009, 06:06:56 AM »
Important: Had anyone told both debaters that massive cut and pastes and plagiarism is unnacceptable.

If I can just go watch WLC on youtube, or read something from an apologetics website, then no debate is necessary. Educating oneself is not a problem for people here.

I expect, and I asume others do as well, to have content written and presented in a responsive manner by all participants.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2009, 06:17:47 AM »
Good OP, I wonder how much of it will be ignored.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2009, 07:17:29 AM »
Since I'm having car trouble and expect to be out of town for most of the day tomorrow getting my chariot fixed, I've went ahead and posted my Opening Statement in the Debate thread a little early.  I hope Majesty doesn't find this objectionable (we hadn't discussed anything about who would post first though).

Too bad your chariot is made of iron, otherwise Yahweh might have been able to help you with it.   ;D
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline kcrady

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2009, 08:03:39 AM »
Too bad your chariot is made of iron, otherwise Yahweh might have been able to help you with it.   ;D

It's probably a good thing my chariot is made of iron, since I'm the anti-Yahweh debater in this little dustup, he'd probably be more likely to try to make things worse, were it not for the fact that iron chariots scare him. ;)
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Majesty

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2009, 08:11:29 AM »
Oh, Majesty, would you mind if I post our debate on my blog, with all posts unedited?

No  doubt  fam...go  for  it

Offline monkeymind

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2009, 09:24:19 AM »
Majesty
Quote
If  i  dont  perform  as  well  as  i hope  to  and  "lose"  (deep  down  inside  i  know  when  my  opponent  has  gotten  the  best  of  me),  its  ok,  all  it  will  do  is  expose  my  weaknesses,  and  i  will  just  have  to  work  harder  on  my  weaknesses  and  get  better.

If you "lose" because you are wrong will you admit it? Because it sounds to me like it's a foregone conclusion to you that you will only lose if your opponent is better at debating than you. Is your faith in your position so strong that it will override your ability to discern the evidence against your belief?

Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2009, 09:34:25 AM »
Is it acceptable to post a bookmark to that thread?

Please don't post anything in that thread. Anything not posted by the two principle debaters will be moved here.

Thank You.

Offline Barracuda

Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2009, 09:53:48 AM »
I  would  love  to  debate  any  one  of  you  other people  in  here  after  my  victor over  KC.


Something tells me that not as many people are going to want to debate Majesty after they see this first debate. :-X

Offline screwtape

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »
Majesty
Quote
If  i  dont  perform  as  well  as  i hope  to  and  "lose"  (deep  down  inside  i  know  when  my  opponent  has  gotten  the  best  of  me),  its  ok,  all  it  will  do  is  expose  my  weaknesses,  and  i  will  just  have  to  work  harder  on  my  weaknesses  and  get  better.

If you "lose" because you are wrong will you admit it? Because it sounds to me like it's a foregone conclusion to you that you will only lose if your opponent is better at debating than you. Is your faith in your position so strong that it will override your ability to discern the evidence against your belief?

I was thinking about that last night.  He is saying nothing can change his mind, no matter what, facts be damned.  I think his weakness has already been exposed.  

And let's not say "faith".  Let's use the proper word for what we mean.  Certainty. He has certainty, not faith.  He feels that he is not wrong and that even if he loses the debate, that does not mean he is wrong.  We'll see.

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Offline Emergence

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2009, 10:09:11 AM »
Mir schwant nichts Gutes.  ;D

Regardless of that i'll bookmark this thread.  :P
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2009, 10:13:46 AM »
snip
And let's not say "faith".  Let's use the proper word for what we mean.  Certainty. He has certainty, not faith.  He feels that he is not wrong and that even if he loses the debate, that does not mean he is wrong.  We'll see.

Yes, point taken.
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Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline screwtape

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2009, 10:37:50 AM »
snip
And let's not say "faith".  Let's use the proper word for what we mean.  Certainty. He has certainty, not faith.  He feels that he is not wrong and that even if he loses the debate, that does not mean he is wrong.  We'll see.

Yes, point taken.

Sorry.  I'm just on a kick lately to stop using the word "faith".  It has too many meanings and is too amorphous to have a meaningful discussion. 
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2009, 10:55:07 AM »
It's kewl, I am having a hard time dumping all the old fundie speak, anyway.

From Monkeypedia:
Faith
Belief w/o evidence.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2009, 11:09:35 AM »
Sorry.  I'm just on a kick lately to stop using the word "faith".  It has too many meanings and is too amorphous to have a meaningful discussion. 

I'm glad you mentioned that. It's a good point.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline screwtape

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »
It's kewl, I am having a hard time dumping all the old fundie speak, anyway.

From Monkeypedia:
Faith
Belief w/o evidence.

It is more complicated than that.  If you go into a conversation with anyone using that as your one and only definition of "faith", you will be talking past each other most of the time.

See what I mean here.  We can pick up the conversation there if you like.

Sorry to get off topic.  Henceforth, I will stick to commentary on the debate.
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Offline Emergence

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2009, 11:43:03 AM »
See what I mean here

I hadn't seen that post before, screwtape. It is great. Thanks for linking it.
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