Author Topic: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread  (Read 45362 times)

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Offline Majesty

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 04:00:03 PM »
Majesty, I think a forum debate is more flexible. If either one of you close out of a yahoo chat session the conversation is lost to you, unless you are constantly keeping logs. On a forum it's more convenient because the discussion can go for days and weeks at a time without losing any content. It would also be easier to go over previously brought up points in a forum discussion than it would be in a chat discussion.  

I  agree,  which  is  why  we  will  get  POPPIN  on  the  forum.  Yes  sirrr

Offline I am become relevant

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 04:00:15 PM »
BM
Welcome to the forum dude. Good luck with your debate  ;D
I is back.

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Offline Majesty

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 04:01:32 PM »
I'm willing to play, though I would much prefer a Forum-based debate, since it wouldn't be necessary to juggle everyone's schedules to be online at the same time.

Well,  lets  dance..

Offline Levan

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 04:02:37 PM »
I wanna watch! I wanna watch!

BTW, I don't recommend you use Kalam. I would bet that most people here could shred it.

Offline I am become relevant

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 04:06:55 PM »
Majesty, just a heads up.  suggest you take a look at some of the more active threads. It will give you a general idea of how people argue things on the site. Might give you a bit of an advantage.
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Offline Inactive_1

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 04:13:33 PM »

SET  IT  UP  ADMIN,  SET  IT  UP!!

I will create a thread for the debate in this area. I'll call it WLC Style Apologetics Debate for lack of a better name. Only the members invited to debate will be allowed to post in the thread to keep it focused. Any other posts will be moved to this thread, which we'll leave as the WLC Style Apologetics commentary thread.

So far the invited members debating are

Majesty
kcrady

Any other requests to be involved should be posted here so we can clear it with the debaters.

Thanks.

Offline keith425

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 04:14:14 PM »
Greetings.  This  is  Keith.

hey Keith,nice to meet you.i'm Keith aswell.i stopped on here,and...well that part jumped out at me for obvious reasons

Offline Levan

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2009, 04:17:14 PM »
I need to go to school in 15 minutes, so I can't join for now. It ends in 8 hours.

Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2009, 04:17:28 PM »

Offline Emily

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2009, 04:18:01 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Keith.
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline 13UnderTheGun

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2009, 04:21:49 PM »

SET  IT  UP  ADMIN,  SET  IT  UP!!

I will create a thread for the debate in this area. I'll call it WLC Style Apologetics Debate for lack of a better name. Only the members invited to debate will be allowed to post in the thread to keep it focused. Any other posts will be moved to this thread, which we'll leave as the WLC Style Apologetics commentary thread.

So far the invited members debating are

Majesty
kcrady

Any other requests to be involved should be posted here so we can clear it with the debaters.

Thanks.

I'm content with just watching. Is there any seating left up front?
Will spectators be allowed to view the new thread?  Thx.

Edit: oops, that was fast. I see the answer is yes. Thx.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 04:26:06 PM by 13UnderTheGun »
The more we learn about the heavens, the more we realize that Heaven is imaginary.


LOOK GOD DOES EXIST AND IF U CANT SEE THAT THEN YOUR A STUPID RETARDED IDIOT WHO IS AN ATHIEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2009, 04:22:38 PM »
I think Majesty wanted to keep it to 4 or 5 challengers. So correct me if I'm wrong about that. If you want to join the debate and can be serious about contributing, let me know here.

Offline I am become relevant

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2009, 04:22:45 PM »
Wish I could join the debate, but I'm so busy these days.  :(
I is back.

I'm a muslim.
No I won't email you a bomb if you tick me off, but only because I don't know how to.

Offline DisdainDavid

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2009, 04:25:06 PM »
This is probably a stupid question, but is there some way to transfer the BM's from this thread to that one?  So that we can follow along without digging it out every time we want to check for updates?
I will stop to contribute in this thread until some one shows up and seem to have brain. -- Master

It's a shame how you put your trust in theories that keep on changing. Bible has stayed the same for thousands of years [. . .]  -- Skylark889

Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2009, 04:27:01 PM »
This is probably a stupid question, but is there some way to transfer the BM's from this thread to that one?  So that we can follow along without digging it out every time we want to check for updates?

Trust me, it won't be hard to find.  ;)

Besides, you don't need to place bm's in threads. Just copy the thread location of any topic or post you are tracking and send it to yourself in a PM. Clean and tidy.

Offline DisdainDavid

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »
This is probably a stupid question, but is there some way to transfer the BM's from this thread to that one?  So that we can follow along without digging it out every time we want to check for updates?

Trust me, it won't be hard to find.  ;)

Besides, you don't need to place bm's in threads. Just copy the thread location of any topic or post you are tracking and send it to yourself in a PM. Clean and tidy.
Thanks Admin  ;D
I will stop to contribute in this thread until some one shows up and seem to have brain. -- Master

It's a shame how you put your trust in theories that keep on changing. Bible has stayed the same for thousands of years [. . .]  -- Skylark889

Offline Hermes

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2009, 04:33:29 PM »
I'm willing to play, though I would much prefer a Forum-based debate, since it wouldn't be necessary to juggle everyone's schedules to be online at the same time.

Well,  lets  dance..

[ withdraws ]
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The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2009, 04:54:49 PM »
If the debaters in question are willing and able to wait a day or two for me to reply to posts, I'll participate.  (I'm swamped with junk these days.)
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Offline Inactive_1

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2009, 04:56:00 PM »
If the debaters in question are willing and able to wait a day or two for me to reply to posts, I'll participate.  (I'm swamped with junk these days.)

OK I'll add you to the debate participants.

Offline jazzman

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2009, 04:57:45 PM »
Hello Keith:

From one US military veteran to another -- welcome to this forum.  I retired from the Air Force six years ago.  While we don't share similar theological views, you and I at least share a common bond of military service to this country.  Let that be a cause of mutual respect between us.

As for your debate, understand that we've recently done this with a poster called Fran who used WLC's arguments to try to convince us that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and that this supposed resurrection proves that God exists.  Fran tried to show this to us all during three attempts that he has carried out over the last year or so.  He failed each time, and he's currently on some kind of hiatus from here, something he does every time he fails to prove his point.  Maybe he'll return to lend you his support.

You didn't mince words in your introduction, but I caution you to not enter so boldly into the debate you may encounter here.  While you feel you're in the superior position, your opposition here has a different view.  It's likely that this debate will end as so many have before, with neither side swayed enough to alter their views.  Part of that probably stems from stubbornness, but for nonbelievers, much of that comes from the inability of theists to put forth reliable and testable evidence to support their views about deities.  Your greatest disadvantage in this debate will be the complete lack of physical evidence that reliably points to the existence of at least one deity.  That makes all arguments for deities merely philosophical exercises that can, at best, serve to convince audience members who want to believe in deities, but routinely fail to compel skeptics to accept that a god exists.  Perhaps you'll be the maverick who comes up with something new that is so compelling that we of reasonable minds can no longer accept our atheism.  Or perhaps not.  If you stick to WLC's line of reasoning, you're not that maverick.

With that said, I look forward to what you have to offer.

Jazzman


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Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2009, 05:06:19 PM »
I wanna debate! I wanna debate! Please?
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2009, 05:16:58 PM »
Well good luck! Good to see somebody proposing a proper debate...so far, I like this guy's attitude. I'll be keeping an eye on the thread to see where it goes. I'll be interested in see straight and honest answers and for people to admit they can't answer a question when they can't answer it instead of coming up with some 2-bit bollocks and for people to be open minded about their opponent's argument. It happens rarely, so lets see how it goes. ;)
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Offline GetMeThere

Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2009, 05:17:55 PM »
Hey Majesty,

You seem like someone who really LIKES to discuss these issues. Most christians visiting here immediately become defensive (and the few who don't begin long theologic harangues or post walls of biblical quotes).

As a pre-debate warmup and audience titillator would you like to discuss one very clear, well-defined, and relatively simple issue?

It's this: a couple of believers here recently have made comments saying that god knows EVERYTHING, e.g., he knows everything every person will do (for instance, he knows which ones will decide to accept him and which won't), and those believers ALSO say that god has given people free will--so that they can choose to follow god.

Non-believers have pointed out that god's perfect omniscience over human behavior vs. people's free will form a contradiction: If somebody's actions are perfectly predictable (i.e., they CAN'T vary from a course that's already known) then they don't have free will, as claimed. If they DO have free will, as claimed, then god can't be omniscient--people could surprise god with their unpredictable decisions.

Can you tell us what you think about this disagreement, and how you see the facts?

Offline GetMeThere

Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2009, 05:20:12 PM »
I'd be pleased to join the debate if there's room remaining...

Offline Omen

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Re: Hermes
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2009, 05:31:25 PM »
William Lane Craig

I found your problem.

I would consider Craig to be one of the worst christian apologist in existence.  Comparable to Strobel, McDowell, and D'Souza.  He relies heavily on philosophical arguments and personages that are not of his own work as an argument ( Alvin Plantinga ) and often lies about modern science as part of his apologetic material.  He is also a contributor/sponsor of many anti-science creationist groups ( such as the discovery institute ).

His only meaningful contribution was the Kalam Cosmological argument, where he insisted a time before time exists in order to imply 'purpose'.  It still stands in circular contradiction like the original cosmological argument, but that doesn't seem to bother craig.

To be honest, you're going to have to do something more then puppet a person that is as unconvincing as Craig.
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Offline HAL

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2009, 05:43:44 PM »
It's tempting but I'd like to see some other members jump into this one first and flex their gray matter.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2009, 05:48:41 PM »
Majesty, welcome. If you haven't already, I would suggest viewing all of kcrady's past posts here and also those in his blog in order to get a better idea of who your opponent is and how he debates. He is quite the handful and if you take him lightly, he will mercilessly pick your argument apart. In short: Know your opponent, be prepared, and take your time.

Again, welcome to the forum!
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Majesty

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2009, 06:16:06 PM »
Hey Majesty,

You seem like someone who really LIKES to discuss these issues. Most christians visiting here immediately become defensive (and the few who don't begin long theologic harangues or post walls of biblical quotes).

As a pre-debate warmup and audience titillator would you like to discuss one very clear, well-defined, and relatively simple issue?

It's this: a couple of believers here recently have made comments saying that god knows EVERYTHING, e.g., he knows everything every person will do (for instance, he knows which ones will decide to accept him and which won't), and those believers ALSO say that god has given people free will--so that they can choose to follow god.

Non-believers have pointed out that god's perfect omniscience over human behavior vs. people's free will form a contradiction: If somebody's actions are perfectly predictable (i.e., they CAN'T vary from a course that's already known) then they don't have free will, as claimed. If they DO have free will, as claimed, then god can't be omniscient--people could surprise god with their unpredictable decisions.

Can you tell us what you think about this disagreement, and how you see the facts?

No  doubt  i  sure  can.  Lets  say,  hypothetically,  that  i  am  an  omniscience  human  being.  And,  i  take  my  son  to  a toy  store,  and  i  tell  him  to  get  whatever  he  wants,  Daddy  will  pay  for  it.  And  my  son  proceeds  to  get  whatever  he  wants.  Now  my  question  to  you  is,  Despite  the fact  that  i  know  that  my  son  will  get  a  Xbox 360,  does  that  in  ANY  WAY,  SHAPE  OR  FORM,  stop  my  son  from  FREELY  choosing  what  he  wants?  I  think  the  answer  is  obviously  no.   My  son  can  freely  walk  throughout  the  store  and  get  whatever  he  wants,  despite  whether  i  know  what  will  get,  or  not.   Foreknowledge  does  not  contradict  free  will. 

God,  in his  omniscience,  knows  exactly  what  we  will  do,  and  he  is  not  surprised  by  anything.  How  can  you  be  surprised  about  something  you  already  know?  God,  in  his  ominscience,  also  knows  what  will  happen  if  we  DONT  do  something.  The  best  example  i  ever  seen  that  illustrates  both  God's  omniscience  and  Gods  omnipresence,  was  if  you  draw  a  10in   horizontal  line  on  a piece  of  paper,  with  an  arrow  on  each  end  of  the  line,  the  line  on  the  left  represents  the  past,  and  the  one  on  the  right  represents  the  future,  and  place  a  dot  in the  middle  of  the  line  and  that  will  represent  the  present.  Now  on  that  same  sheet  of  paper,  draw  some  eyes  at  the  top, with  the  eyes looking  down  at  the  line.  The  eyes  can  see  the  past,  present,  and  future.  I  think  thats  a  decent  example.

But  my  conclusion  is  Foreknowledge  does  not  contradict  free  will. 

Offline HAL

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Re: WLC Style Apologetics Commentary Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2009, 06:19:04 PM »

But  my  conclusion  is  Foreknowledge  does  not  contradict  free  will. 


It most certainly does. But this is not the debate thread...