you present a very bad argument [#2076]

[DL]

Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.

[jetson]

No, it is you who are currently deluded in your "opinion."  There is no REASON to be atheist.  There is EVERY reason to examine the god belief and see that it leads to nothing.  Once you arrive at the conclusion that God does not exist, you are atheist - meaning you don't believe God is real.  And you don't need the delusion to continue living a happy life.

Remember, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim.  There is literally NO PROOF that any gods ever existed.  All gods are man-made.  If you can dismiss all other man-made gods, then you do yourself a huge disservice to think that you happened to have stumbled across and actual god in Christianity.  It simply is not true.

Come join our forum and learn something.

[Bumblesquee]

Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

This attitude pisses me off like nought else. So you're telling me that unless there is a supreme being of infinite power and intelligence, possibly one whose arse I must kiss for the whole of my (possibly eternal) existence, my life is meaningless and I should kill myself?

I only have one life. I value it more than anything else. It's brief, but it's precious and can be very wonderful. I have family, I have friends; many of whom would be very hurt if I were to disappear, especially by my own hand. I want to enjoy the things I love--art, music, games. I even enjoy those grey and rainy Sundays because even those will be gone forever one day. There are so many reasons not to kill yourself.

[Nick]

I don't want to kill myself because then I would be dead.

[JeffPT]

Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Oh, indeed I DO have an answer. 

I throw this back at you, because this type of argument pisses me off to no end as well. And I want you to think about this, because you have it exactly backwards.....

If you are an atheist, then you understand completely that this is the ONLY life we get.  You understand that after you die, there is most likely nothingness.  Existence ends right then and there.  So the atheist has to come to terms with that and understand that something, is always better than nothing.  An atheist lives their life knowing that this is all we KNOW we get.  So we value it much more than any Christian ever could. 

If you believe in God, however, then you believe you have another life after this one.  And you know that the other life is going to be infinite and full of greatness with no pain, no death, no suffering.  You have something to look forward to that is way better than this life, and all it takes is the stopping of your heart.  So I ask you, WTF are you waiting for?  Go out and kill yourself so you can get to that next life.  This one is so full of terrible, awful, baby eating atheists, what keeps you here?  What is your "purpose" for being here that supercedes God's ultimate purpose for you in the kingdom of heaven?  Giving glory to God?  So your purpose is to be a cheerleader for a fictitious supreme being?  Nuts.  Just nuts.

In life, the things atheists live for are real.  Family, friends, love, entertainment, learning, and so much more.  Do you find those to be bad reasons to choose life over death?  Do you place no value on those things?  Do you find those things not worth living for?  The difference is that we choose to live our life without the belief in something for which there is no evidence.  It seems to me, you are saying the only thing in this world that is actually worth living for is your God.  Well, I hate to break this to you, but that's really, really sad. 

So tell me again, why you think you have more to live for?  My wife and kids should be home any minute from the gym.  What better thing to live for than seeing them every day? 

Your life on this earth is spent thinking you are doing something positive for a being that isn't real.  It is all I can do not to laugh and point at you. 

Your God awaits your arrival in heaven.  Go and join him.   

And BTW, the reason people turn to atheism is not because there is some sort of benefit from it.  They do it because they found no reason to believe that any religion is real.  They value TRUTH over dogma.  Honesty over lies.  Reason over blind faith. If you don't value truth, then you are free to stick with your religion and believe what you want.  Atheism is not a sales pitch.  It's not trying to recruit you.  It's not flashy and it doesn't offer you a fake sky daddy that will take all your problems away.  It offers truth, nothing more.  It's just opening your eyes to see the world for what it really is.  If you value truth, then take the steps to find out what that truth is.  If you believe in God, you do not have truth right now.  I promise you that.  Open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. 

Your God is not real.  The reason for the confidence is nothing more than a conclusion based on an honest exploration for the truth.  It is the same confidence that one would get trying to prove 2 + 2 = 4.  Every time you add 2 things to 2 more things, you get 4 things.  It works every time.  After you do it a bunch, and you always get 4, then you can be act confident that it's true.  That is where the confidence comes from.  It is this same exploration that leads to the conclusion that Zeus is not real, Thor is not real, Allah is not real, and all the others.  You simply don't have the truth here.  You are wrong.  Sorry. 

[MadBunny]

Unlike people who don't believe in an afterlife, we know that this is the only opportunity we get.  That makes it valuable beyond measure.  Whereas you christians believe this this is merely a blinking of the eyes, and that the world is going to end soon anyway making life cheap beyond measure.



[

Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest.

[DaBungalow]

You seem to be attacking atheists as they are perceived in America (religion hating, bigoted, smug, arrogant, pretentious toss-rags) rather than the actual videos.

If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

...atheist hating, bigoted, smug, arrogant pretentious toss-rag.

[GetMeThere]

Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

It's that thought, lurking in the minds of a substantial fraction of believers, that scares the crap out of me. Ultimately, people who have a BASIS FOR THOUGHT like that are capable of ANYTHING.

"What reason do you have for not killing yourself" is actually only slightly different from "Here, I'll save you the trouble, and put you out of your misery."

It never ceases to puzzle me how people could find life impossible to face unless they can believe they are puppets created by a puppetmaster...

[Timtheskeptic]

Why do i not kill myself?

I want to do many things in my life and have absolutely no interest in dying anytime soon. I don't plan on french kissing any deities' asshole.

[Emily]

Here's an argument: Why wont god heal amputees? Watch the video, browse the site. That's the argument. If there is a god, and if he does answer prayers then he'd surely be able to heal amputees.

To help you understand why this question is so important, let's look at an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one day, and he tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic, and he schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease. Meanwhile, you are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God day and night for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your doctor examines you again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God for answering your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that God has worked a miracle in your life.

The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to know whether God is playing a role or not when we pray?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

It doesn't really matter which god you pray too because they'd all have the ability, in their omnipotentness, to preform some kind of miracle.

Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

I'm sure my fiance would miss me. I don't want to him to be sad. The reason is because I have feelings for those around me who I love.

And you say the website has a bad arguement

[Iriquois Pliskin]

Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open. Somebody use an example with numbers (2 + 2 = 4).

Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

You could, i suppose argue that you live on in your influence to the world, through people, material, and, for a privilledged few, knowledge. However, these only matter to other people, whom, like you are bound to a destiny of emptiness. Why bother, when the end result is the same. This was the question to which i am yet to be given an answer.

It feels as if, becoming an athiest, you succomb to a life a no purpose. If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me. From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth. Somewhat like the matrix, blue pill or red pill? (i forget which is which). I guess atheists took the pill the winds up in the real word. But, compared to the luxuries of the matrix, it kind of sucks dosent it?

You tell me.

(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)

[Ananukia]

You make your own purpose, just because one day I will die and be forgotten does not mean I wish to slit my throat and die. Christians believe they will live forever in a magical kingdom where their every want is granted.

It is the religious who should be looking for death, because it is they who think this world is meaningless, a test.

[Emily]

(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)

Welcome to the site. To quote, just click this button above the smilies:

and copy what you want to quote in between the tags.

For more help here is a thread about quoting;

Quoting FAQ
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0

there is also the test area if you want to test any other features.

[MadBunny]

Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open. Somebody use an example with numbers (2 + 2 = 4).

Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

You could, i suppose argue that you live on in your influence to the world, through people, material, and, for a privilledged few, knowledge. However, these only matter to other people, whom, like you are bound to a destiny of emptiness. Why bother, when the end result is the same. This was the question to which i am yet to be given an answer.

It feels as if, becoming an athiest, you succomb to a life a no purpose. If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me. From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth. Somewhat like the matrix, blue pill or red pill? (i forget which is which). I guess atheists took the pill the winds up in the real word. But, compared to the luxuries of the matrix, it kind of sucks dosent it?

You tell me.

(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)

Now that you're registered all you have to do is to click the 'quote' button to the top right of each post that you wish to reply to.

Alternatively you can simply type {quote} paste their comments {/quote}  only using brackets [ ]  instead.
What you wind up with is

paste their comments

[jetson]

Welcome.  There is a quote feature at the top right of each post.  There is also a quote tool called "insert quote" when you are in edit mode.  Hover over each tool button to see what each does, including one that allows you to link to a URL.

Please understand that the reality of killing yourself is that you no longer exist, especially to those who do not believe in an afterlife.  For that reason, it seems like a very bad idea to kill yourself.  I know of no atheists who would contemplate this.  The even sadder part is that theists seem to think that because there is life after death, they have everything to look forward to - but that would only occur AFTER their own natural death - assuming it happens at all.  So why don't theists just kill themselves to get there faster?  I know, God doesn't condone killing ones self in order to get to heaven!

Welcome to the forum!

[DaBungalow]

From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth.

That's your idea of my perspective. I came from nothing, I'm going back to nothing, why would I throw away the precious time I have on this planet?

[Emily]

If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me

Life is what you make of it. It has nothing to do with what religion you follow. The Muslims are capable of living a happy life believing they will go to their heaven, and the Christians will live a happy life believe when they die they go to theirs. The atheists are able to live a happy life also, without the need of thinking that when you die you will just rot in the ground.

Life has a purpose: It's what you make of your life. It sounds like you think atheists have a nihilistic world view - well they don't.

Here is a statement that I think fits;

For myself, I think it's pretty obvious that ethics/morals in general (specific, cultural nuances notwithstanding) are partially innate, fostered by environmental factors. I believe in the not-so-distant future this will be borne out by cross-cultural brain studies, including mapping out the areas that give rise to these higher 'instincts'.

We have the inherent ability to empathize with others and do so with animals - to the degree that they have a similar appearance. Through empathy, we feel the pain of others as pain, a proxy noxious experience that we seek to avoid or alleviate.

Clearly, there are exceptions - mob behavior, deviants - but these represent either an us/them scenario (in which the 'them' is rendered 'other' and dehumanized) or the exception that proves the rule.

Ultimately, I think ethics/culture and innate 'morals' arose as the co-products of evolution - groups that took care of each other were more hardy in the face of adversity and thus more likely to leave offspring.

http://blog.videosift.com/gwiz665/Atheist-answers-Where-do-our-morals-come-from

[GetMeThere]

Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

Here is the flaw in that:

1) Your argument essentially says that unless one can "live" for eternity there is no point in living.

2) But what IS living in eternity? Well, it says nothing about TODAY. Living for eternity means exactly that you KNOW you will be alive tomorrow. The only thing that is different between someone who can die at any time and someone who will live for eternity is that the second person KNOWS he will be alive tomorrow. It's the only difference.

3) Thus, what you are saying is that you can't have meaning as you exist TODAY, unless you know you'll be alive TOMORROW. But if the only MEANING in being alive today is the KNOWLEDGE that you will be alive tomorrow--then...what you really...."want" is somehow always something that you will "have" TOMORROW and never TODAY.

The idea that Monday can only be meaningful if you know you will be alive Tuesday is inherently absurd. Indeed, for most thoughtful people, knowing they would be dead tomorrow would make today quite a meaningful one indeed!

[GetMeThere]

OR....(hehehe). Unless you believe you will be presented with 72 willing perpetual virgins in heaven, why bother having sex or love now?

Unless you know you will never get divorced, why bother getting married?

Unless you know that your child will live a long and healthy life, why bother having a child?

[Iriquois Pliskin]

Get me there'

You are somewhat correct

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

But is this not a paradox? Because...

Death (inevitable ceased exicitence of the induvidual) makes life pointless (this is of course where we disagree)

For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'. Of course, im certianlly open to change, with appropriate convincing. It seems a rather depressing existence to hold this viewpoint does it not!?! (Oh how i suffer...) (LOL)

[Ananukia]

Does eating a cake, and knowing that that whence you eat the cake it will be gone, make the cake taste less wonderful?

[GetMeThere]

Get me there'

You are somewhat correct

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

No, I don't agree with that. Death can serve as a good reminder that the feeling that you will always be here tomorrow is an ILLUSION. It can help you FOCUS on meaning instead of the negative.

For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'.

Well, I won't mention how that could serve as a reason to avoid lovemaking and eating, for example. Nor will I mention the joys of taking a "scenic route" on a long trip.

Because you are correct from some perspectives. Think of a prisoner in prison for life. He thinks of escape. If he could somehow KNOW that all his attempts to escape would fail it WOULD be pointless to keep trying them, of course. But would it be pointless to try to make friends with others? To try to be kind to others who were suffering, who he might be able help? To help a friend who he knew was innocent get a better lawyer? To work in the kitchen and think of better recipes, etc., so the food was more enjoyable? To read books with amazing stories or great insights?

But the more direct answer to your question is simply the experience of atheists[1]. Do you REALLY believe that being in love, seeing their children born and grow and be happy, accomplishing a difficult or meaningful task, seeing the beauty of nature, or the advancement of human knowledge and works; that these things bring no meaning or satisfaction to atheists?

You're just completely wrong, and that doesn't require argument, debate, or logic. It's discoverable directly from observation.

1.

And if you include the Chinese among atheists, for example, you're talking about the experiences of MOST of the people who have ever lived throughout history, and a culture which in many respects has been the most advanced and peaceful society to ever exist. I think some christians have the shortsighted idea that atheists are just a small group of modern, disaffected and grumpy intellectuals.

[Agga]

bm

[Dkit]

Though this may not apply to this argument, I think it does say something about the Chritian mentality. 

I visited Rapture Ready yesterday to read the buzz about the new EU President.  One thread consisted mostly of Christians wishing this life to end so they could go live with Jesus in heaven.  They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

I think this mentality is very sad indeed.  They are wasting their life waiting for an event that will never happen.  They will grow old wishing their live away waiting for the godman to take them to paradise. 

[mrbiscoop]

Though this may not apply to this argument, I think it does say something about the Chritian mentality. 

I visited Rapture Ready yesterday to read the buzz about the new EU President.  One thread consisted mostly of Christians wishing this life to end so they could go live with Jesus in heaven.  They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

I think this mentality is very sad indeed.  They are wasting their life waiting for an event that will never happen.  They will grow old wishing their live away waiting for the godman to take them to paradise. 

Bunch of cretins.

[Dragnet]

Book Mark.

I am interested in this viewpoint.
I am having some trouble understanding how or why anyone would think that way.

[MadBunny]

They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

We tend to see this more than average I think, probably because we're attuned to it from talking about it and thinking about how religion impacts our society.

I think that anybody who actually believes that the end of the world is a good thing has a major problem.  People who actively work toward making that happen, whether it be through a conspiracy to get control over WMD, or breeding the perfect red calf deserve less than zero respect.  Over tens of thousands of years humanity has wondered what happens when you die, occasionally there will be some cultists that just kill themselves off to take a look, but mostly people have a natural reticence to die.  Those who have spent their lives training themselves that death is a good thing, that it's just the gateway to eternity and all sorts of wonderful candyland stuff awaits are dangerous.

[Astreja]

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

I disagree, IP.  I practice mindfulness meditation on occasion, and when doing so I'm engrossed in the present moment.  The future is irrelevant to the process, as is the prospect of death, because my meaning is in the here and now.

[kin hell]

bad arguement needs spanking