Author Topic: you present a very bad argument [#2076]  (Read 4621 times)

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Offline Max Kodan

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2009, 04:05:43 AM »
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.

And you don't present any argument whatso- ...Wait...

Quote
If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

Oh, geez, this again?  You honestly don't think that I can't come up with an answer?  Ok, here's a couple, smart ass: 

I don't kill myself because I know that other people's feelings would be hurt.

I don't kill myself because it would achieve nothing positive for anyone, besides one or two theists, but why give them the pleasure?

I don't kill myself because I don't know enough yet:  I still have questions and I don't want to leave until I've got some good answers.  Scientific ones, of course.

I don't kill myself because I have no reason to.

I don't kill myself because it'd probably hurt.

That enough for you?
If you consider speed to be a 3D vector it doesn't really matter whether you call it momentum or speed.

Offline DL

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2009, 07:59:23 AM »
When you die, you die

Quote
Understanding death

From the story in the previous section you can see that the idea of death is disturbing to children. Many adults never outgrow it, so death can also be disturbing to adults -- even to adults with Ph.D.s. These adults, of course, are acting like children.

You are not a child. Imagining a place called "heaven" does not change the central fact about the chemical reactions that drive your cells. You simply need to grow up and face death like an adult, in the same way that you face other childhood traumas.

It is quite beneficial to see your mortality for what it is. A week or two from now, when you are thinking like an adult about death, the truth about death will begin to change your self-image and the way that you imagine the future. Religion and its concept of an afterlife skew your thinking by making you believe that you will live forever. You will not. You've got 70 or 80 years if you are lucky, and then you are gone forever.

At the simplest level, an understanding of your permanent mortality should help you to realize more clearly how precious your life is. If you live to be 82 years old, what you have is approximately 30,000 days of existence. You are not going to then commute to "heaven" to live for eternity. 30,000 days is all that you've got.

Here are some of the things in your thinking that will change once you understand and accept this simple fact:

    * Your time on earth becomes much more precious to you.

    * You begin to realize that everyone else's life is just as precious, and you start looking at them differently.

    * You think more about what you are leaving behind when you die.

    * You think more about the human species as a continuum, with yourself as a part of that continuum, and you start thinking about the future of our species and the planet.

Like it or not, your total experience is here on earth. That realization should make you see a day wasted in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles, or a week wasted preparing your taxes for the IRS, a little differently. All that you have is 30,000 days. Everyone who wastes your time -- every bureaucracy, every long line at the store -- should give you pause.

When you die, what is your legacy? What do you leave behind?

    * Whatever material objects you own, to be given to whomever you like in your will.

    * Whatever contributions you have made to society as a whole. If you have done research into the cure for cancer, you leave that. If you have written books or made movies, you leave them. If you funded a building at your university, you leave that.

    * Images of you in photographs and video, as well as any letters, writings or recordings.

    * Your children and their memories of you.

    * The memories you leave with your friends and family.

That's it. Now that you understand that your death is final, you may look at those things in a different light.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 08:01:06 AM by DL »

Online JeffPT

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Re: Response to 'Get me there'
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2009, 01:11:42 PM »

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.


Then what is the meaning of heaven?  Heaven is a life without the fear of death or the knowledge of an end, is it not?  Are you saying that's numb too?  Maybe you should think about the consequences of an eternity without fear of death or knowledge of an end before you accept "heaven" as a positive thing. 

But is this not a paradox? Because...

Death (inevitable ceased exicitence of the induvidual) makes life pointless (this is of course where we disagree)


In terms of the entirety of the universe, yeah there is no master point to life.  It just is.  And it's freakin great.  Enjoy it while it lasts, because it is very likely that there is nothing more after it. 
 
For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'. Of course, im certianlly open to change, with appropriate convincing. It seems a rather depressing existence to hold this viewpoint does it not!?! (Oh how i suffer...) (LOL)

Depressing or not, it's truth.  Ice cream makes you fat.  That's depressing, but also true.  Wishing ice cream didn't make you fat doesn't change it.   

The purpose of life is to be found in the journey, not at the beginning or the end. 

If you value your feelings over truth, go ahead and believe in god.  If you value truth over your feelings, then it is fine to realize there is nothing after this life.  Give me truth every time, regardless of the consequences.  Your ego is what keeps you from accepting that your existence has no intrinsic value to the universe as a whole.  You want to believe there is more, and so does everyone else (even us), but there is simply no reason to believe it's true.  It's just wishful thinking.  Once you realize that your existence is just a small part in a giant universe, you feel a little relieved.  Your problems never seem quite as big as they did before.  No matter what happens to you personally, the sun is going to rise tomorrow.  It's a comforting thought to know that you are just along for the ride.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Online One Above All

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2009, 01:13:56 PM »
iriquois pliskin... anyone know where this is from? if you do, check out some quotes from the 4th game and you'll see where this guy gets his stuff from
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2009, 02:23:03 PM »
To follow the whole 0 = 0 analogy, I would say that you are correct. It would be the shortest route to the only conclusion. However, I contend that it is PRECISELY for that reason that I stick around. I know that the start is 0 and the end is 0... but I want to see what 1 through 9 has to offer while I have the chance... so I intend to make my equation as complex as possible.

Then again, there is pure animal instinct to consider as well... the will to survive is harder to overcome than one might think.
"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

~Tyler Durden

Offline MadBunny

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2009, 03:18:07 PM »
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline FSM

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2009, 01:13:49 PM »
OK let's see if I've got this right:

1. God can do anything.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Jesus deliberately intended to be crucified.
3. Jesus deliberately allowed himself to be crucified despite the fact that he could have prevented it at any time.
5. The ultimate goal of Christians is to be like Jesus.

Since God can do anything, and Jesus is God, and Jesus intended to be crucified, and Jesus allowed himself to be crucified despite the fact that he could have prevented it at any time, he committed what we now call "suicide-by-cop", a deliberate form of suicide.

THEREFORE:
1. Jesus committed suicide.
2. In order to be like Jesus, Christians must kill themselves (preferably by crucifixion).

Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 01:32:26 PM by FSM »

Offline CutePuppy

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2009, 06:39:36 PM »
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open.

If you're not religious, doesn't that mean you don't believe that there is a god (biblegod) in any sense? So....why are you still alive? Why haven't you killed yourself yet? Why can't you answer your own question despite the fact that you're a living answer to your question?

Offline Sister Chromatid

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2009, 01:07:30 AM »
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.

Although it is unlikely that your brain will comprehend the answer, there are many good answers as to why one wouldn't kill oneself.  The first is obvious.  Those who evolved a "will to live" passed on their genes more successfully than those who didn't.  We are their descendants.  We are afraid of dying.  We desire more life even when it sucks.

What I always wonder is how can Christians even have a kid when they know there is the possibility it can suffer forever.  And why wouldn't they have abortions or kill their children like Andrea Yates if it means that it ensures the kid's eternal happiness (by dying before he could become hell-worthy).  I'm not all-loving, and I would not create a child if I believed that child had even the remotest of a possibility of suffering FOREVER, and yet you worship a god who does so.  

Are you confident that Scientology is wrong?  Why?  How do you know?  How do you know Islam is wrong and that the Moonies are wrong and that rain dances don't work?  How do you know we shouldn't sacrifice virgins to get better crop yields?  How do you know the earth isn't flat?  It looks flat! How do you know gremlins aren't real and that invisible sprites aren't whispering secrets in your ear right now?  How confident are you and why?  Your answers to those question might give you real clues as to why I'm an atheist and why I am so confident.  

We know that humans are adept at fooling themselves when it comes to invisible agents; however, despite eons of such beliefs, we haven't amassed an iota of evidence that any kind of consciousness can exist absent a material brain.  That puts your god on the same plane as the proverbial emperor's new clothes.  He's as unlikely to exist as Xenu or the magical Mormon gold plates as far as the evidence is concerned. Tsk.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 01:10:12 AM by Sister Chromatid »

Offline Sister Chromatid

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Re: Response to 'Get me there'
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2009, 01:23:12 AM »
No matter what happens to you personally, the sun is going to rise tomorrow.  It's a comforting thought to know that you are just along for the ride.  

[pedant] Actually, the sun will appear to rise.  Science tells us that what is actually happening is that our part of the earth is rotating towards the sun once more as it revolves on its axis [/pedant]

I agree.  It's awesome that we are amongst the first humans to be able to understand this information and share it with others during the brief moment we get to be a conscious part of the universe.  
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 02:05:37 AM by Sister Chromatid »

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Response to 'Get me there'
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2009, 01:44:33 AM »
Actually, the sun will appear to rise.  Science tells us that what is actually happening is that are part of the earth is rotating towards the sun once more as it revolves on its axis [/pedant]   

Well, to be truly stunningly pedantic, we don't know the sun will continue to burn tomorrow.
However, this is an instance where we can use past information to create a predictive scenario.  Just as you know that the last 500 times you've stuck the keys in your ignition and tried to start your car (assuming you have one) it will probably behave the same on the 501th try as the 488th try.

We know that the sun has been burning for millions of years.  We have studied it and think that we have a reasonable understanding of the mechanics involved on how it works, and thusly also; what it will continue to do.

Why bother being pedantic like this?  Because past behavior for something is also the greatest indicator of future behavior.  We know, for example that Jesus hasn't bothered to show up for the last couple thousand years, that's a pretty long period of past behavior.  We also have a good idea of the mechanics of why that is. (he's fictional)  It's probably a safe bet to say that he won't be showing up anytime soon.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Sister Chromatid

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2009, 02:04:23 AM »
Agreed!

(and you win in pedantry too.) :P

(But you'd have been an even better pedant if you had caught my error in using "are" instead of "our" in addition to immortalizing my mistake in your response.)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 02:06:56 AM by Sister Chromatid »

Online JeffPT

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Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2009, 09:50:11 AM »
I stand by my prediction that no matter what happens to me on this planet, the sun will (appear to) rise tomorrow :)  No matter how pedantic you wanna get :)  It was obviously more of a statement alluding to the fact that time is extremely likely to go on, regardless of what happens to me.  And that thought gives me comfort.  It lets me know that I hold no major role in the survival and existence of this universe, and I am free to enjoy this life as I see fit.  My piddly little problems seem much less important than I think they are.  The thing that upsets me is the thought that I will not get to see how this planet continues to evolve into the future.  I would love nothing more than to see what life is like here in another million years, when all my molecules belong to different things again.     

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT