Author Topic: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]  (Read 990 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DL

Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« on: November 27, 2009, 03:44:58 PM »
Dear WWGHA team,

Simple question, I am hoping for an answer;

Why does evolution make organisms better & better? Who drives this
evolution? Normally things tend to fail if we don't attend to them i.e. a
pile of sand remains a pile(chaotic/meaningless) until a child turns it into
castle, the tendency of material is thus to remain in its state of chaos but
evolution seems to be making organisms better and better.What is this force
driving the process of evolution?

Thanks,
[name]

Offline DL

Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 03:45:53 PM »
OP sends second message:

---

Are you suggesting that some molecules in the bacterium somehow "feel" or
"have decided" that their race must survive and are therefore mutating and
evolving their molecular structures to push their race further in time. I
can't belive that some molecues have "intention".

This intention is not materialistic, it is beyond the material world.

Hoping to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,
[name]

Offline DisdainDavid

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1354
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Almighty Zeus
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 03:52:19 PM »
Dear WWGHA team,

Simple question, I am hoping for an answer;

Why does evolution make organisms better & better? Who drives this
evolution? Normally things tend to fail if we don't attend to them i.e. a
pile of sand remains a pile(chaotic/meaningless) until a child turns it into
castle, the tendency of material is thus to remain in its state of chaos but
evolution seems to be making organisms better and better.What is this force
driving the process of evolution?

Thanks,
[name]

Who said they become better and better?  Your evaluation of what is better and what is not is subjective.  We can argue that many organisms alive today are extremely well adapted to their niche, but in the time it is taking me to right this to you a species somewhere has most likely gone extinct.  It is threw this dying off of less successful species that we are left with anything resembling "better and better" species.  You seem to lack even a basic understanding of natural selection.  As far as the driving for of evolution, it again would be natural selection.  To elaborate, the driving force behind evolution is the increased chance of reproduction (and hence the spread of genes) of organisms more adapted to their environment.  As far as your sand castle example goes, sand is not a living organism, is it.
OP sends second message:

---

Are you suggesting that some molecules in the bacterium somehow "feel" or
"have decided" that their race must survive and are therefore mutating and
evolving their molecular structures to push their race further in time. I
can't belive that some molecues have "intention".

This intention is not materialistic, it is beyond the material world.

Hoping to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,
[name]
No one except you (and other creationists) ever said that bacterium "feel, decide, or have intention."  Genetic information is subject to mutation, drift, and several other processes/events which allow for changes.  These changes are then acted upon through natural selection.  No intention or supernatural forces needed.  I recommend you receive at least a basic education in evolution before attempting to criticize it.
I will stop to contribute in this thread until some one shows up and seem to have brain. -- Master

It's a shame how you put your trust in theories that keep on changing. Bible has stayed the same for thousands of years [. . .]  -- Skylark889

Online Emily

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5675
  • Darwins +50/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 03:55:08 PM »
Dear WWGHA team,

Simple question, I am hoping for an answer;

Why does evolution make organisms better & better? Who drives this
evolution?

Thanks,
[name]


Way back in the day picture two of the same animal, one animal has a trait that helped the organism survive and one animal with a trait the didn't help the organism survive. The animals with the trait that didn't help them survive didn't. That's natural selection in a nutshell. To think that some mystical being is controlling the process is a bit wrong, simply because it's an assumption Perhaps there might be a god driving the evolutionary process but that's a far fetched conclusion because there's no proof of it. There is no evidence for it. It's driven by nature and the environment that organism is in.

Quote
Are you suggesting that some molecules in the bacterium somehow "feel" or
"have decided" that their race must survive and are therefore mutating and
evolving their molecular structures to push their race further in time. I
can't belive that some molecues have "intention".

Molecules don't have "intentions". If an organism with that molecule is able to survive then it passes that molecule down to its offspring.
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline William

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3564
  • Darwins +92/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 03:55:25 PM »
What is this force driving the process of evolution?

The force is just natural selection.  It retains variation that is beneficial - increasing it's prevalence - so it appears to be shaping things to better and better forms.  

But all it is doing is being opportunistic when the niches are there and the randomly occurring variation matches the opportunity.

The vast majority of random change is lethal or detrimental - you don't see that because it's either gone (dead) or diminished in prevalence.  

What you see in the population is the small amount of beneficial variation - amplified by survival and thriving.  It accumulates over time.  And that is very easy to misinterpret as some kind of directed process of improvement.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 06:21:27 PM by William »
Git mit uns

Offline omniweasel

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Death-Rabbits
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 04:19:08 PM »
there are more than 13,000 species of spider, tell me which one is better than the others.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 04:20:31 PM »
WWGHA team? Are you kidding? These questions are fit for the WWGHA forum daycare. Jesus, how is this amount of stupid allowed in your society?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline voodoo child

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1823
  • Darwins +10/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2009, 06:03:41 PM »
there are more than 13,000 species of spider, tell me which one is better than the others.
;D

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2093
  • Darwins +236/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 06:12:22 PM »
WWGHA team? Are you kidding? These questions are fit for the WWGHA forum daycare. Jesus, how is this amount of stupid allowed in your society?

I agree AP.

To follow up... My question is, why would he come to an atheist site to learn about evolution?  There are probably hundreds of sources to look this stuff up.  We aren't here to teach everyone the stuff they could get from a simple google search.  

To the OP, while the posts you have gotten so far are spot on accurate, do not take our word for it.  Be skeptical of it. I am certain you will see they are correct, but look anyway.  Go see what the scientists are saying.  Then try to be skeptical about all your preconceived notions about the world, if you have them, that is.

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Darwins +119/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 06:54:35 PM »




Only those with WUV survive to pass on their genes.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 12:36:19 AM »
Normally things tend to fail if we don't attend to them i.e. a
pile of sand remains a pile(chaotic/meaningless) until a child turns it into
castle, the tendency of material is thus to remain in its state of chaos but
evolution seems to be making organisms better and better.What is this force
driving the process of evolution?

A sand pile is not chaotic and meaningless.  Chaotic and meaningless would be for the sand grains (in fact, their constituent subatomic particles) to be distributed randomly and more or less evenly throughout the universe.  

There is no limit to the things in nature that are not chaotic and random.  Stars form, planets aggregate around them with their heavier elements toward the center, oceans collect on the surface, deposits of minerals appear through various processes, plants and animals grow.  The force that drives most of these processes is our Sun[1], which is constantly pumping unimaginable amounts of energy into our system.  Evolution is one of those processes, so ultimately, as with everything else, it is driven by the Sun.  

But if you mean what causes evolution to take one path and not another, think about what makes a stream take one path and not another.  The stream always flows downhill.  Even though its immediate path might be blocked by a rock or a branch, it will flow around it, always ultimately downhill.  Gravity is the pressure that pulls the stream downhill.

Evolution has many pressures: changes in climate or geography, changes in the numbers or strength of predators or competitors, etc.  But always evolution flows in the direction of the survival of the genes, because if it didn't, we would not be here today to talk about it, would we?

Just like a stream, there are many branches of evolution that dried up and disappeared.  We happen to be one branch that hasn't - yet.  If that's the definition of "better" then you could say that every species alive today is "better" than the ones that died out, and all species are equally "good".

edit: Here are some pictures of some amazing formations that look as though they could have been formed by some intelligence - yet they are simply natural.
 1. and to some extent, the radioactivity of the Earth's core
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 12:39:40 AM by xphobe »
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Sister Chromatid

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 01:33:44 AM »
In my experience, you can not teach science to someone who thinks their salvation depends on belief in a particular creation story. 

The questions are not meant to be answered.  They are meant to cause the asker to feel like the answers mean that scientist don't really know, and therefore (in the faith addled brain), what their preacher told them is "true".

Even a simpleton should be able to see how human selection (making dogs from wolves) speeds up the process of evolution and that nature is always doing the same thing-- culling the herd and only letting a few of the fitter pass on their (fitter) genes.

I wonder if a creationist can understand how a beach or mountain or ecosystem forms when they cannot grasp the very basis as to how nature is always selecting.  Do they think these things just "poofed" into existence too?  Do they understand how cities evolve? How technology evolves?  How the internet evolves?  Because it's very similar. 

All the atoms that are in the computer you type on were in the earth when the earth was formed.  But it takes 4.5 billion years of natural selection to turn those atoms into a computer you can use to type on to people all over the world-- and in fact do things that would make you a miracle-worker (or even a god )to people who wrote the bible.  It's not magic sky fairies that make the magical things in your life.  It's variety, selection, and time. 

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2009, 01:42:44 AM »
The questions are not meant to be answered.  They are meant to cause the asker to feel like the answers mean that scientist don't really know, and therefore (in the faith addled brain), what their preacher told them is "true".

You're probably right.  The OP is another drive-by, and they'll go scurry off to their warm cozy hole at AIG where their delusion is coddled, and they'll never think about us again (except maybe to "pray for us").

I don't post for them.  I post for others who might read it and be sitting on the fence.  I post for my own benefit, to try phrasing things in different ways to develop a better writing and speaking style.  Mostly it's all just for fun.  Ah well...
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Darwins +119/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2009, 01:46:12 AM »
I don't post for them.  I post for others who might read it and be sitting on the fence.  I post for my own benefit, to try phrasing things in different ways to develop a better writing and speaking style.  Mostly it's all just for fun.  Ah well...

For those... there is always photobucket.
My photobucket is so huge by now that it has it's own photobucket account.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Sister Chromatid

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2009, 01:52:35 AM »
The questions are not meant to be answered.  They are meant to cause the asker to feel like the answers mean that scientist don't really know, and therefore (in the faith addled brain), what their preacher told them is "true".

You're probably right.  The OP is another drive-by, and they'll go scurry off to their warm cozy hole at AIG where their delusion is coddled, and they'll never think about us again (except maybe to "pray for us").

I don't post for them.  I post for others who might read it and be sitting on the fence.  I post for my own benefit, to try phrasing things in different ways to develop a better writing and speaking style.  Mostly it's all just for fun.  Ah well...

As do I.

I've just learned to keep my expectations really low and enjoy the company of my fellow heathens while relieving stress by goofin on creationists. The way they ask questions is always so... smarmy.  And they are never interested in the answer.  After a while you can smell them coming because they all sound pretty much the same.  (On the other hand, there are more people than just creationists who read these boards, so you may be planting seeds that will bloom later.)

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2009, 07:56:21 PM »
the mailbag should be much more fun with Sister around. 

it's just sad to see one more hypocritical theist all so sure that the mean ol' scientists are ever so wrong whilst using the same science to be comfy in the 21st century.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline GetMeThere

Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2009, 11:14:24 PM »
Dear WWGHA team,

Simple question, I am hoping for an answer;

Why does evolution make organisms better & better? Who drives this
evolution? Normally things tend to fail if we don't attend to them i.e. a
pile of sand remains a pile(chaotic/meaningless) until a child turns it into
castle, the tendency of material is thus to remain in its state of chaos but
evolution seems to be making organisms better and better.What is this force
driving the process of evolution?

Thanks,
[name]


It couldn't be simpler, OP. With each generation, things are changed very slightly (a reshuffling of the deck), and then the best changes are kept and built upon. It's called genetic change and natural selection. It results in an ever-changing and expanding approaches to life, and adaptation in each generation to changes in the environment.

Still, things are not made better and better. Things are made "more and more diverse," as changes allow new natural niches to be taken advantage of. As diversity builds the bases on which to build further multiply.

For the last 60 million years or so, the animals that were most involved in those processes have been the mammals.

Offline Sister Chromatid

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Dear WWGHA team [#2097]
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 11:40:21 PM »
Yes.  It's grow and adapt or die out... just like the internet and websites and cities and languages and ecosystems and galaxies and trees and life.  Natural selection is a pruning process.  Those who get it, really GET it; those who think their salvation depends on them not getting it, never do.