Author Topic: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir  (Read 22754 times)

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Offline Emily

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 01:18:52 PM »
Quote
As  i  stated  over  and  over  again  in those  other  forums,  the  Big Bang theory  is  the  best  explanation  for  the  origin  of  the  universe.  And  based  on  that  theory,  there  was  no  space,  time,  or  matter  before  the  Big Bang.  So  for  the  Big Bang  to  occur,  it  had  to  come  from  nothing.  But  we  know  through  observations  that  things  dont  just  pop  into  being  uncaused  out  of  nothing.  The  question  then  becomes,  what  was  the  cause  of  the  Big Bang?  And  i  have  both  philosophical  and  scienctific  evidence  that  is  in  favor  of  the  supernatural.  Now  if  you  disagree  with  the  Big Bang theory,  take  that up  with  Stephen Hawking,  who  said,  "Almost everyone now believes that the universe and time itself had a beginning at the Big Bang."  The Nature of Space and Time

You know what's funny. (regarding your bold) Almost everyone agrees with the Big Bang but they don't agree with your conclusion in that something supernatural was behind it. (or rather WLC's conclusion)
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 01:19:18 PM »
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Name  one miracle  that  supposedly  happened,  that  there  could  be  evidence  of  it  today.

World-wide flood
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 01:28:08 PM »
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Name  one miracle  that  supposedly  happened,  that  there  could  be  evidence  of  it  today.

World-wide flood

The sun dancing in the sky.
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Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 01:44:02 PM »
The confusion of languages. If it happened we would expect evidence everyone in the world spoke the same language at one time. Then there would be evidence that all languages were spoken in Babylon at some point and people left the area and new languages sprung up overnight in the surrounding areas. Linguists know for certain this did not happen.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 01:49:57 PM »
Let's not forget the miracle of "creation".

If all "kinds" were made unchanging and perfect, we wouldn't be finding metric pantloads of transitional fossils, viruses and bacteria wouldn't mutate, pigs left in the wild wouldn't grow tusks, insects wouldn't become immune to pesticides, etc. etc. etc. etc.

That's kind of a biggie in my book. If "creation" actually happened, you'd find literally no variation in the fossil record.

You'd also have some radically different geological data if the Earth was "poofed' into existance in 6 days 6,000 years ago.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 02:06:20 PM »
What  i  mean  by  fine  tuning  is,  the  odds  of  us  living  in  a  life  permitting  universe  is  so  high  that  it  should  not  be  looked  at  as  random  or  chance.  I  dont  have  the  stats  to  throw  at  you  now,  lucky  for  you.  But  this  is  not  something  that  is  new.  Physicists  understand  how  fine  tuned  the universe  is  and  if  you  continue  to doubt  this  then  i  will  be  forced  to  throw  a  couple  of  numbers  at  you  regarding  the  fine  tuning  and  also  give  you  quotes  from  famous  Physicist  regarding  the  matter.
Again we have one more Christian who has no idea what they are talking about.  The reason you don't have any stats is that there are none that support you, unlucky for *you*.  You claim that "Physicists  understand  how  fine  tuned  the universe  is "  Really, which ones and how?  Show how you figured these "odds" and while you are at it, understand that the universe is not random in its laws.  To claim so is amazingly ignorant of reality.  There is no Dr. Seussian occurences, no cats disappearing only leaving a grin, etc. 

Your pitiful appeal to authority that you don't even understand should be fun to watch. 
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Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 02:06:25 PM »
Hmmmm...anyone else notice that Majesty's post in this thread is extremely less articulate and verbose than his debate posts?

How curious.

Lol  And?  So  what  you  tryna  say?  lol

Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2010, 02:26:57 PM »
How about fixing the quotes so it doesn't seem that I said it [EDIT: The two middle quote blocks]. Just so there's no confusion among other people. All I was doing was giving you the part of the question from the transcript of the video.

How  about  I  say  I  will,  but  in  the  end,  I  dont.

Offline Grogan

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 02:34:47 PM »
Hmmmm...anyone else notice that Majesty's post in this thread is extremely less articulate and verbose than his debate posts?

How curious.

Lol  And?  So  what  you  tryna  say?  lol

I'm trying to say that it's very apparent that the bulk of your posts have been cribbed in one form or another.  You type like a borderline retard in anything outside of the debate forums.
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You want to understand God and the world around you through science and logic alone and, because you cannot come up with a "reasonable" explanation for what they ate when leaving the ark, you dismiss it.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 02:41:26 PM »
^ Huh. And here I thought it was my imagination.

And  what  is  with  the  double  spacing?

Is it so that your god has bigger gaps to live in, or what?  :D
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 07:59:48 PM by Moderator_011 »
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Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 02:55:22 PM »
This is really pathetic. First of all, it's practically a direct quote from WLC debates--Majesty, do you ANY of your own thoughts?

This  is  silly.  I  like  how  people  accuse  me  of  taking  WLC  stuff.  But  as  I  said  before  (and  no  one  responded),  When  WLC  debates,  he  spends  a  great  deal  of  time  QUOTING  people  who  has  said  something  in particular  on  a  matter. In  fact,  WLC  quotes   so  many  different  people,  that  one  of  his  opponents  in  a  debate  accused  him  of  committing  the  fallacy  of  "excessive  footnotes"  (which  Craig  brilliantly  refuted,  btw). Even  the  kalam  argument  that  he  uses  is  not  his  own  argument.  He  did  not  INVENT  the  kalam  argument  people.  That  argument  has  been  around  for  hundreds  of  years,  and  it  was  used  by  MANY  different  apologists  over  those  years,  years  before  WLC  was  even  born.  In  fact,  of  ALL  the  debates  that  i  have  seen,  both  atheist  and  theist  alike  quote  many  different  individuals.  So  if  it  is  good  for  them,  then  it  is  good  for  me.

Secondly, it doesn't even address the issue--NOT AT ALL. The ISSUE raised by the question is: Why aren't prayers answered as promised in the bible? Although WLC claims to NOT be an inerrantist (I believe), the logical fact is that if there is error in the bible--and especially if one can't know god's reasons for acting or they seem confusing--then one CANNOT KNOW WHERE THE ERROR LIES. And so the bible becomes WORTHLESS as a source of truth. The topic of WWGHA can be addressed ONLY by directly addressing why the bible says one thing while reality says another.

Look,  the  bible  is  very  clear,  your  prayer  will  get  answered  if  it  is  according  to  the  will  of  God.  You  cant  pray  and  ask  God  to  allow  a  child  to  wander  over  to your  yard  so  you  can  take  him  in  and  rape  him.  God  will  no  to  that  prayer.  Second,  as  i  said  before,  how  do you  know  whether  God  DOESN'T  answer  peoples  prayers?  Alot  of  people  can  testify  that  they  believe  that  God  answer(ed)  their  prayers,  but  you  just  wont  accept  what  they  say.  This  is  a  double  standard.  When God  answers  NO  to  a  prayer  for  whatever  reasons,  then  you  say  either  God  doesnt  care,  God  ignored  the  prayer,  or  God  doesnt  exist  because  a  prayer  didnt  get  answered.  But  if  i  tell  you  that  God  answered  a  prayer,  you  dont  believe  that  he  answered  the  prayer  because  you  dont  believe  in  God  or  prayer.  It  is  a  double  standard  and  you  cant  run  that  kind  of  crap  on  me.  So,  continue  not  believing  in  God  as  you  have  been  doing,  and  just  accept  the  consequences  of  your  eternal  destination  (if  there  is  one).  But  this  is  a  very  obvious  double  standard  basically  God  is  damned  if  he  answers  yes  or  damned  if  he  answers  no.  You  are  trying  to  have  this  feeble  type  of  logic  both  ways,  but  im  not  buying  it.

Third, this is typical "apologist speak," which WLC specialises in: "Hey, anything could be true. We don't know how god is working things...THEREFORE, you can't make any argument against him in any way." Well, if you can't make an argument AGAINST something--because you can know nothing about it--then you can't make an argument FOR IT, either.
It's an argument from ignorance, and nothing more.

This  is  silly.  The  God  that  i  am  defending  is  the  christian  God.  And  the  Christian  God  is  all  loving  and  he  wants  what  is  the  best  for  his  creation,  and  this  is  evident  throughout  the  bible.  And  if  he  is  allowing  evil  and  suffering,  there  has  to  be  a  REASON  why,  regardless  whether  you  see  it  this  way  or  not.  If  you  dont  like  it,  then  dont  like  it.   Nothing  changes  lol.

Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 03:04:25 PM »
Because in all of recorded history, it's never happened?  :-\ That's a pretty good indicator. I don't have to withhold judgment of anything. You worship a magical Jewish zombie with superpowers, who only exists within the pages of a 2,000 year old boogie-man book of ancient superstition. Somewhere between the enchanted goat fornication and the big wooden boat and the live-inside-a-fishy stories, I think I'm entitled to be skeptical.

You weren't there to deny that George Washington drove a BMW either, were you? But you can conclude, based on what you know about the actual world, it probably didn't happen.

The bible also tells you how to cure leporasy by rubbing animal blood on yourself. Go contract leporasy and give it a shot, if you're so confident lol.

First  of  all,  the  ressurrection  was  recorded  in  history.  It  was  recorded  in  a  book  called  the  Bible.  The  gospels  give  us  four  accounts  of  this  ressurection,  each  individual  accounts.  Those  four  books  dont  have  to  be  backed  up  by  any  other  book  in  order  to  be  true  or  credible.  Each  book  stands  on  its  on  as  a  individual  account.  So  the  ressurection  is  recorded  in  history,  but  you  still  deny  it.  I  honestly  dont  think  you  will  become  any  more  close  to  becoming  a  Christian  even  if  the  ressurection  WAS  backed  up  by  other  sources.  And  i  believe  the  2000  year  old  story  about  a  Jewish  zombie  like you  believe  the  universe  just  POPPED  into  being  out  of  nothing,  and  here  we  are  in  a life  permitting  universe  with  all of  these  physical  laws  that  created  themselves.  That  sound  just  as  crazy  as  any  religious  story.

Offline Grogan

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2010, 03:23:15 PM »
First  of  all,  the  ressurrection  was  recorded  in  history.  It  was  recorded  in  a  book  called  the  Bible.  The  gospels  give  us  four  accounts  of  this  ressurection,  each  individual  accounts.  Those  four  books  dont  have  to  be  backed  up  by  any  other  book  in  order  to  be  true  or  credible.  Each  book  stands  on  its  on  as  a  individual  account.  So  the  ressurection  is  recorded  in  history,  but  you  still  deny  it. 

They aren't reliable accounts, and you would know this if you weren't clouded by delusion. They were written decades after the supposed resurrection, not to mention the circular logic involved in using one to verify the other. 
Quote from: kenn
You want to understand God and the world around you through science and logic alone and, because you cannot come up with a "reasonable" explanation for what they ate when leaving the ark, you dismiss it.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 03:26:55 PM »
First  of  all,  the  ressurrection  was  recorded  in  history.  It  was  recorded  in  a  book  called  the  Bible.  The  gospels  give  us  four  accounts  of  this  ressurection,  each  individual  accounts.  Those  four  books  dont  have  to  be  backed  up  by  any  other  book  in  order  to  be  true  or  credible.  Each  book  stands  on  its  on  as  a  individual  account.  So  the  ressurection  is  recorded  in  history,  but  you  still  deny  it.  I  honestly  dont  think  you  will  become  any  more  close  to  becoming  a  Christian  even  if  the  ressurection  WAS  backed  up  by  other  sources.  And  i  believe  the  2000  year  old  story  about  a  Jewish  zombie  like you  believe  the  universe  just  POPPED  into  being  out  of  nothing,  and  here  we  are  in  a life  permitting  universe  with  all of  these  physical  laws  that  created  themselves.  That  sound  just  as  crazy  as  any  religious  story.

Sir, the bible is not a history book. By any stretch of the imagination. Please look here:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

For the 300+ ways it IS NOT historically accurate. To suggest it IS makes you look like an absolute fool. Borderline handicapped, even.

2nd, your four "gospels" mention FOUR DIFFERENT versions of the story. NO HISTORY BOOK ON THE PLANET contains four different versions of the same story and suggests they're ALL true. So even your OWN BOOK contradicts itself, totally independent of what reality and common sense contradicts (see above link). So yeah, THEY DO HAVE TO BE BACKED UP, ya goon. If they didn't, we wouldn't be ASKING for you to BACK THEM UP, would we? Nor would anybody else for that matter. &) It would just be widely accepted. It's not.

But that one statement, "They don't need to be backed up", tells me pretty much everything I'll ever need to know about your mentality.

3rd, ONE BOOK, an ancient and demonstratably laughable book, does not supercede all other books in it's validity and importance just because the book's contents say it does. That's not how books work. If it WAS how books worked, the Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks would be the most important piece of literature in history. There is not a credible scientist, historian, or anthropologist ON THE PLANET who would agree with you on your position.

Here's a little heads up - the bible wasn't written as a history book. It was frankensteined together at the request of a ROMAN emperor in the 3rd century, who (being the guy who funded it) also had a big  say as to which of his favorite stories went IN, and which of his LEAST favorite were left OUT. It was compiled out of all sorts of ancient jewish fairy tales, and 1/3rd of it was left on the cutting room floor - research the apocryphal gospels. It has no more credibility than the Odyssey or the Illiad. Because it is a book FROM history, does not make it a HISTORY BOOK lol... It's hillarious that you seem to think it does... Does that mean that Odyssius REALLY captured all the world's wind in a bag?  :D

Any credible and unbiased historian or scientist - you know, the people who actually dictate what IS and IS NOT historically true - any credible and unbiased historian or scientist would laugh in your face for suggesting the bible is historically valid... just like I am doing right now LMAO!

Let me simplify it.

THE BIBLE? IS NOT. HISTORY. *NOBODY* BUT A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF CHRISTIANS SUGGEST IT IS. *NOBODY*.

So while *you* may consider it a "history book", the people who's opinions actually matter - academia, historians, etc. DO NOT.

You can call a cat a fish all day long, but that will not make it swim.

Moving on, your assumption that people wouldn't believe in magic, even if confronted by actual evidence, is absolutely ignorant. It's a way you've come to rationalize why people don't believe.

Evidence, or lack thereof, is *WHY* we believe what we do. It's the cornerstone to all fact. If you provide REAL evidence for a god, most of us would believe. It's what we do. It's what ALL rational people do. They believe things that have evidence.

REAL evidence. Not the wishy-washy philosophical mewlings and special pleadings of a theologian and their 2,000 year old boogieman stories. The world has millions of you guys, all preaching different imaginary friends and ancient myths to anybody who will listen. But one thing you all have in common: Lack of anything resembling compelling evidence.

Well, that, and an agenda.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:01:23 PM by Moderator_011 »
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Offline Emily

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 03:40:19 PM »
First  of  all,  the  ressurrection  was  recorded  in  history.  It  was  recorded  in  a  book  called  the  Bible.  The  gospels  give  us  four  accounts  of  this  ressurection,  each  individual  accounts.  Those  four  books  dont  have  to  be  backed  up  by  any  other  book  in  order  to  be  true  or  credible.  Each  book  stands  on  its  on  as  a  individual  account.  So  the  ressurection  is  recorded  in  history,  but  you  still  deny  it.  I  honestly  dont  think  you  will  become  any  more  close  to  becoming  a  Christian  even  if  the  ressurection  WAS  backed  up  by  other  sources.  And  i  believe  the  2000  year  old  story  about  a  Jewish  zombie  like you  believe  the  universe  just  POPPED  into  being  out  of  nothing,  and  here  we  are  in  a life  permitting  universe  with  all of  these  physical  laws  that  created  themselves.  That  sound  just  as  crazy  as  any  religious  story.

And this is where you fail. As mentioned the bible is not a reliable source of information. We might as well just say that a guy was able to live three days inside the stomach of a whale, or that two dudes were able to survive being thrown into a furnace simply because angels guarded them.

There is no evidence of it even happening. No written records other than the bible, no physical proof, nothing. It's nothing but circular reasoning. I believe this because the bible says so. Doesn't really fly. The bible is not a history book.

And here you are still supporting the idea that the universe must've had a supernatural creator because it couldn't have just "popped out of nowhere" I mean that would violate its own laws, Oh Noes! Bullocks. The idea of a supernatural creator is just one of the many god of the gaps arguments that are heard everywhere.

And you think that sounds crazy. Believing that the universe just pops out of nothing. Well as mentioned several times, it's wasn't nothing. Not by a long shot. And you're so quick to say that the big bang is the best explanation for the cause of the universe, and it almost sounds like you think we don't think that. Most of us do[1]. The problem lies in when you say this;

Quote
And  i  have  both  philosophical  and  scienctific  evidence  that  is  in  favor  of  the  supernatural.

You might have the 'philosophical evidence'[2]. Philosophy isn't science. But the scientific evidence behind the big bang does not point to a creator. It does not favor a supernatural creator. There might be a supernatural creator but it's just as likely that there isn't.
 1. I can't speak for the entire forum
 2. whatever that means
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 03:42:14 PM by Emily »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2010, 04:17:35 PM »
Look,  the  bible  is  very  clear,  your  prayer  will  get  answered  if  it  is  according  to  the  will  of  God.  You  cant  pray  and  ask  God  to  allow  a  child  to  wander  over  to your  yard  so  you  can  take  him  in  and  rape  him.  God  will  no  to  that  prayer.
Great answer!  You have just argued that it is the will of God to allow bad things to happen since he ignores prayers to help people.  How about Sarah Haley Foxwell, who was kidnapped and killed.  I'm sure at least one RealTrueChristiantm prayed for her safe return.  Why no answered prayer?     


 
Quote
Second,  as  i  said  before,  how  do you  know  whether  God  DOESN'T  answer  peoples  prayers?  Alot  of  people  can  testify  that  they  believe  that  God  answer(ed)  their  prayers,  but  you  just  wont  accept  what  they  say.  This  is  a  double  standard.

Oh yes, they can certainly claim that. You heard about Natalie Rose Flores, the little girl who was rescued from her kidnapper?  Oh, that was a miracle everyone claimed.  Praise be to God!  And then little Sarah doesnt' get such a good result from the prayers for her.  No one mentions that, no, it's just ignored.  There's your "double standard", the ignorance to claim one little girl evidently is more favored by God than another. Go ahead, give me a reason that God's will is having a little girl raped and murdered and one not.  Show me how this works "And  the  Christian  God  is  all  loving  and  he  wants  what  is  the  best  for  his  creation,  and  this  is  evident  throughout  the  bible."  Yep, repeat to yourself all you can "there  has  to  be  a  REASON  why", so you can sleep at night, with your worship of such a monster.

Love to see your threats.oooh, eternal damnation.  Just don't starch your shorts in your excitment about people being tortured forever, just so you can be "special".
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Offline gregoriodomingos

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2010, 04:44:53 PM »
Yeah,  Food  is  everywhere.  Where  do you  think  we  get  our  food  from?  You  can  plant  crops  and  hunt  wildlife  for  absolutely  no  cost  in  third  world  countries.  I  have  seen  many  tribal  documentaries  in  Africa  where  those  people  don't  have  electricity  or  any  of  modern  technology,  but  they  get  by  just  fine.  They  go  out,  and  hunt  their  food.  Food  is  everywhere.  Just  because  they  don't  get  their  food  from  local  grocery markets  or  cook  their  food  on  Foreman  grills  doesn't  mean  that  their  food  isn't  any  less  satisfying.  Food  is  everywhere.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8929-soil-health-crisis-threatens-africas-food-supply.html

yep doing just fine with all the hypothetical food there.

This  is  silly.  So  if  there  is  no  food  in  the  whole  country,  do  you  just  sit  back  and  starve?  Or  do  you  go  and  find  food?  I  have  watched  many  wildlife  shows.  Elephants  will  walk  miles  and  miles  to  find  a  area  where  vegetation  is  plentiful. They  don't  just  sit  back  and  relax  when  the  heat  of  the  summer  dry  up  the  vegetation  and  say  "oh,  we're  fucked!!!".  They  walk  and  they  find  it.  When  the  prey  migrate  miles  and  miles  because  of  lack  of  vegetation,  the  carnivores  will  follow  them.  It  is  to  easy.  If  animals  can  understand  the  concept  of  moving  on  to  a  different  location  when  the  hard  times  kick  in,  then  why  the  hell  can't  humans  do  the  same?  Food  is  everywhere  people.
Thank you for helping prove your ignorance. i didn't say Dubai's population was starving did i? actually Dubai is doing just fine they built a strong economy from the oil they've sold over the years and have little poverty. ahhh and really comparing elephants to people? seriously? elephants are not stoped at national borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai


I  have  absolutely  NO  PROBLEM  admitting  that  my  God  could  not  exist.  That's  why  i  speak  hypothetically  if  he  does.  Can  you  admit  that  a  God  could  exist?
yes actually i hope he does exist and heaven and hell do to. eternal life. i want to live forever to. I'm scared shitless that death is the end of it all. but me wishing it does not make it so.


What  do  you  mean  "no  economical  interest".  So  the  government  has  no  economic  interest  in  saving  the  lives  of  starving  people??  Wow.
this might come as news to you but if you have no job pay no taxes nor somehow create welt for that country government does'n give a shit about you.



Yes you waste your time being ignorant. waiting for eternal life and not living the one you have.
I  will  just  lol <---at  the  quote  above 
lol all you want but the world is much bigger than you know.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:11:04 PM by gregoriodomingos »
Is not tragedy a necessity in life?
Yes it is, may god give you hemeroids.

Offline Dkit

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2010, 07:47:47 PM »
Quote from: majesty
If  those people  prayed  to  God,  and  God  somehow  got  every  country  to  help  with  the  cause  of  feeding  all  starving  people,  so  that  NO  ONE  in  the  world  were  starving.  And  on  tv,  a  person  that  was  formally  starving  was  being  interviewed,  and  he/she  said  "I  knew  this  day  would  come!!!  I  knew  the  day would  come  when  our  prayers  were  answered,  and  the  Lord  would  hear  them  and  give  his  people  food,  with  the  help  of  other  countries.  Praise  the  Lord!!"  If  that  person  said  that,  can  you  honestly  sit  there  and  tell  me  that  you  would  accept  this  persons  word   that  it  was  the  Lord  that  answered  the  prayers?  I  dont  think  you  would.  Suppose  God  did  answer  the  prayers  of  the  people?  Would you  believe  in  it?
Why would an omnipotent being care one whit about whether or not he gets credit for providing the means to keep people from dying from starvation?  An all-loving god would do it without the need for acknowledgment or back patting.  So, are you insinuating that god doesn't provide food because he's afraid(whatever that means for an omnipotent god) we won't lavish him with praise for a good job done? 

It's like when parents give their children presents at Christmas.  It doesn't matter that those children believe the gifts are from Santa.  All that matters is that they are happy and that the parents get to enjoy that happiness.  Why isn't god satisfied with making "his children" happy without the need for praise?

It seems the only beings that really care what is thought about god or expected of him are his followers, since god is silent on all subjects up for debate.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2010, 08:52:29 PM »
Umm  i  fail  to  see  where  the  contradiction  lies.  The  person  that  was  suffering,  if  God  knew  that  the  suffering  would  result  in  that  person  turning  his  life  over  to  him  and  receiving  eternal  salvation,  then  the  suffering  was  for  the  better.   Thats  the  point,  you  dont  see  what  God  sees.  God's  will  SHALL  be  done,  regardless  of  what  you  think  or  feel.(...)

So, what of the person whose suffering causes them to turn away from God when prayer after prayer goes unanswered?

If God sees all, surely he must be aware of what his silence is doing to this person. Therefore, according to the logic you use here, it must be his will that the person lose his faith.



Offline peterofthecorn

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2010, 09:05:05 PM »
Quote from: jynnan_tonix
Therefore, according to the logic you use here, it must be his will that the person lose his faith.
What's wrong with that?
If I agreed with you, we would both be wrong.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2010, 09:17:07 PM »
Quote from: jynnan_tonix
Therefore, according to the logic you use here, it must be his will that the person lose his faith.
What's wrong with that?
Well, if that's his will, and what makes him happy, fine...who am I to tell him what to do?

But if that is the case, then any ideas about his benevolence and loving nature go out the window.

Why would anyone worship a god who treats his creation in such a cruel and arbitrary manner?

Offline Operator_A25

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 10:34:12 PM »
How about fixing the quotes so it doesn't seem that I said it [EDIT: The two middle quote blocks]. Just so there's no confusion among other people. All I was doing was giving you the part of the question from the transcript of the video.

How  about  I  say  I  will,  but  in  the  end,  I  dont.

How about you go ahead and take care of it, Majesty?

...And while you are at it, you can fix the post you also misquoted Astreja in this reply.

Thanks!

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Offline Astreja

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 10:49:30 PM »
Your  whole  logic  is  "i  dont  like  God  because  he  doesn't  live  up  to my  expectations"... Without  God  there  would  be  no  objective moral  values  anyway.  Without  God,  we  are  all  animals.  And  life  is  meaningless.  What  do  you  care  about  someones  arm  being  amputated?  Does  it  effect  you?  On  a  atheistic  view,  nothing  matters.

Please demonstrate that your god actually exists, has a different moral point-of-view from the rest of us, and somehow possesses morals that are *not* subjective.

As for meaning, I do not get my meaning from an outside source.  I create my own meaning.

Even if your god did exist, it does not change the fact that we are, in fact, animals -- Highly developed social apes, in fact.

Finally, I can vividly imagine the pain of another being.  The suffering and loss of another being does affect me, very much.

Quote
The  person  that  was  suffering,  if  God  knew  that  the  suffering  would  result  in  that  person  turning  his  life  over  to  him  and  receiving  eternal  salvation,  then  the  suffering  was  for  the  better.

That is merely making excuses for a sadist.  If your god exists, in theory it is perfectly capable of giving salvation without resorting to torture.

One person in hell is two too many.  Your hypothetical god has no excuse for creating such a place.

Quote
Well  since  you  say  that  there  are  no  objective  moral  values,  that  mean  that  raping  a  child  is  not  objectively  wrong.

Correct.  It is subjectively wrong -- Very, very wrong.  It inflicts physical pain and fear, causes long-term psychological trauma, violates the child's human rights, and disrupts society as a whole.

(By the way, I hope you're aware that Biblegod isn't exactly baby-friendly, either.  So much for your 'objective' morality being superior to my poor, benighted humanism.)

Quote
Either  you  dont  know  what  "objective"  means.  Or  you  are  just  a  very  bad  person  lol.  You  said  it, not  me  lol.

False dichotomy, argumentum ad hominem, and just plain rude.

Quote
Well,  John 1:1-14  tells  us  that  Jesus  is  God,  and  we  believe  that  this  is  true.  So  if  you  question  every  other  historical  event  that  occured  like  you  question  the  bible,  your  logic  will  be  more  consistent.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  There is no credible evidence for anyone coming back from the dead; therefore, I see no problem with dismissing the Gospels as historical fiction muddled up with preposterous mythology.

Quote
What  i  mean  by  fine  tuning  is,  the  odds  of  us  living  in  a  life  permitting  universe  is  so  high  that  it  should  not  be  looked  at  as  random  or  chance.

It isn't 'random' or 'chance'.  It's chemistry.  We just happen to be the organisms living here.  Debates like this only occur in places where there are beings capable of such discussion, creating the illusion that us being here is something special.

Quote
If  you  wasn't  there  then how  can  you  deny  it?  You  have  to  withhold  judgment  and  say  "i  dont  know".  Jesus  is  God,  and  as  God,  he  is  has  supreme  authority  over  life  AND  death.  To  easy  lol.

No, I will not withhold judgement.  I think your claim of a man coming back to life is complete and utter mythological nonsense, and on that point I shall not be silenced.

You are the one making the extraordinary claim.  You have the burden of proof, and I am under no obligation whatsoever to give you the benefit of a doubt.  Support your claim with physical evidence, qualify it as personal belief rather than objective fact, or retract it altogether.
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Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2010, 11:46:08 AM »
You know what's funny. (regarding your bold) Almost everyone agrees with the Big Bang but they don't agree with your conclusion in that something supernatural was behind it. (or rather WLC's conclusion)

Lol  Emily Emily Emily.  Gotta  love  Emily.  I  have  said  this  over  and  over  again.  According  to  the  Big Bang  theory,  there  was  no  space,  matter,  or  time  before  the  singularity.  Space,  matter,  and  time  are  all  natural  occurences.  So  if  there  was  no  space, matter,  or  time  before  the  Big  Bang,  it  logically  follows  that  the  cause  of  space, matter,  and  time  had  to  be  supernatural.

Emily...

1. Space, matter,  or  time  did  not  exist  before  the  Big Bang
2. Space, matter,  and  time  exist
3. Therefore,  the  cause  of  space, matter,  and  time  had  to  be  supernatural,  since  space,matter, and  time  are  natural  occurences

Now  Emily,  I  would  like  for  you  to  give  reasons  why  the  two  premises  are  false,  and  why  the  conclusion  is  also  false.  Can  you  do  that  for  me  Emily?

And  people  who  agree  with  the  BBT  dont  believe  in  the  supernatural  because  they  are  living  life  fine  without  the  supernatural.  The  supernatural  is  not  something  you  need  for  everyday  living.  So  why  bother?  But  it  is  not  this  life  they  should  worry  about,  its  the  next  one  lol.

Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2010, 11:47:21 AM »
Quote
Name  one miracle  that  supposedly  happened,  that  there  could  be  evidence  of  it  today.

World-wide flood

Water  filled  the  earth,  then  the  water  dried  up.  What  evidence  are you  looking  for?  Evidence  of  water  that  dried  up?  Dried  up  water  stains??  Silly  lol

Offline Operator_A25

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2010, 12:05:05 PM »
Majesty, I hope you are cleaning up your quotes as requested.

If you don't fix them I am going to trash them.

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Offline Emily

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2010, 12:13:11 PM »
Now  Emily,  I  would  like  for  you  to  give  reasons  why  the  two  premises  are  false,  and  why  the  conclusion  is  also  false.  Can  you  do  that  for  me  Emily?


You don't need to tell me what the big bang says. I know what it says.

FWIW: I also said this after I sent that message...

You might have the 'philosophical evidence'[1]. Philosophy isn't science. But the scientific evidence behind the big bang does not point to a creator. It does not favor a supernatural creator. There might be a supernatural creator but it's just as likely that there isn't.
 1. whatever that means

Read the bold. In other words there might be a creator, but at the same time there might not a creator. So how the hell can I give you two reasons why the premise is false if the whole time I haven't discounted the possibility of a creator. All I know is I don't know. That's it. I'm not going to be as arrogant and so incredibly cocky as you and immediately declare there to be one based on some cosmological argument.

All I am saying, in the post you replies to, is that people believe in the big bang but not the idea of a creator behind it. That's it.

EDIT: If there is a creator he's not the heartless, loveless, cruel monster of a god that's written about in the holiless bible.[2]
 2. For some reason this calls for a Pat Condell video:
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 12:42:50 PM by Emily »
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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2010, 12:13:20 PM »
Again we have one more Christian who has no idea what they are talking about.  The reason you don't have any stats is that there are none that support you, unlucky for *you*.  You claim that "Physicists  understand  how  fine  tuned  the universe  is "  Really, which ones and how?  Show how you figured these "odds" and while you are at it, understand that the universe is not random in its laws.  To claim so is amazingly ignorant of reality.  There is no Dr. Seussian occurences, no cats disappearing only leaving a grin, etc. 
Your pitiful appeal to authority that you don't even understand should be fun to watch. 

Ohhh  see  this  is  what  i  like.  Fiestiness  lol.  Actually  you  dont  know  what  YOU  are  talking  about....Nothing  better  than  proving  a  person  wrong.  Look  at  how  velkyn  spoke  with  such  conviction...watch  this...

Regarding  the  "which  ones,  and  how?"

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to  put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not  to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There  is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".
Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem  to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by  astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am  sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."

I  am  not  here  to  play  with  you  people.  I  can  take  on  every  single  one  of  you  people.  But  anyways,  velkyn,  What  you  see  above  is  just  5,  i  can  give you  many  many more  if  you  like,  PLUS  the  references.  You  asked,  and  i  gave  lol.  So  who  doesn't  know  what  they  are  talking  about.  As  far  as  the  stats  are  concerned,  do  you  really  want  me  to  give  you  the  stats  invovling  the  fine  tuning  of  the  universe.  Keep  in  my  those  individuals  above  are  experts  in  the  fields  of  cosmology  lol.  Only  because  of  the  statistical  findings  are  they  able  to  make  such  quotes.  But,  if you  force me  to,  i  will  give  you  the  stats,  AND  more  quotes  from  others.  I  dont  think  it  is  the  Christian  that  doesnt  know  what  he  is  talking  about,  at  least  not  on  this  matter  hehehe.



Offline Majesty

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Re: 10 Questions: Please don't shoot me kind sir
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2010, 12:28:02 PM »
They aren't reliable accounts, and you would know this if you weren't clouded by delusion. They were written decades after the supposed resurrection, not to mention the circular logic involved in using one to verify the other. 

This  is  silly.  First  of  all,  it  doesnt  matter  if  the  Gospels  were  written  3  years  or  30  years  after  Jesus's death.  What  difference  does  that  make?  There  were  twelve  disiples,  each  one  of  them  could  of  been  alive  30  years  later  and  STILL  recalled  and  recorded  those  events  as  that  person  remembered  them  taking  place.  In  fact,  one  of  the  young  ladies  that  were  part  of  the  Manson  family,  in  a  recent  documentary  of  Charles Manson (that  i  personally  watched  myself),  was  recalling  events  that  took  place  back  in  the  1960's,  which  is  OVER  30  years  ago.  So  if  she  can  tell  us  about  what  happened  in  1969 (which  was  the  year  that  Sharon Tate and others were  killed),  in  GREAT  detail,  then  why  cant  people  REMEMBER  OR  RECALL  AND  RECORD  what  happened  30  YEARS  ago  regarding  Jesus??  And  second,  the  dating  of  the  gospels  are  subjective  anyway.  We  dont  know  when  they  were  written  to  be  quite  honest.  Hell,  some  people  in  history  have  a  question  mark  by  theie  birth  year (or  death),  because  scholars  dont  know  when  they  were  born  or  died.  So  people,  lets  stop  with  the  nonsense.  Regardless  of  when  the  gospels  were  written,  they  are  four  independent  accounts  of  the  life,  death,  and  ressurrection  of  Jesus  Christ.  And  thats  all  that  matters.