Author Topic: Pantheist?  (Read 534 times)

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Offline towag

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Pantheist?
« on: November 21, 2009, 11:31:58 AM »
Well it seems I am being educated here, going through the chaff and wheat and what would deem worth pondering I have come to put my position at about the pantheist approach to whether or not a "god" exists..... still agnostic I think..... complete Atheist not yet.....
I would have to admit that I find it difficult to imagine a Universe coming from nothing etc etc.....
There are many credible scientists that are on both sides of the equation as we all know, so we are still asking the mystery of whether one believes or doesn't.  Overwhelming evidence points to a debunking of a bible or koran god or any human imagined other god and I would have to agree on most points....
However science also points to a possible "super intelligence" that is big bang theory, DNA and so forth and the immense complicated design (for want of another description) that makes up these scientific theories and discoveries. It seems to me that the odds are just too great for it all to happen just by coincidence....
It boils down to just these two ideas either it was just accident or it was designed to happen and there is the question!! 
 
The difficulty is in keeping an open mind....

Offline Traveler

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 11:38:12 AM »
My biggest problem with a creator is that the creator had to come from somewhere. Saying we're too complex to come from nothing, but then saying that an infinitely more complex and perfect being (or beings) came from nothing in order to create us seems utterly bizarre to me.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Nick

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 11:41:33 AM »
It is Ok to say, "I don't know" and leave it at that.  Why we need a god watching our every move and giving us strange rules to follow is beyond me.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Dragnet

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2009, 11:42:37 AM »
Actually I think the real question is, what is the best method for finding answers to the question of how it all cam to be.

1. Magic done it. Lazy man method, no more reasons to think.

2. Observation, testing, verification.  This takes work.
I am responsible with my actions NOW so I don't HAVE to be responsible for them later.

Offline towag

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 11:44:16 AM »
My biggest problem with a creator is that the creator had to come from somewhere. Saying we're too complex to come from nothing, but then saying that an infinitely more complex and perfect being (or beings) came from nothing in order to create us seems utterly bizarre to me.

Yes Traveler and one ponders how something can come from nothing.......
The difficulty is in keeping an open mind....

Offline towag

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2009, 11:52:18 AM »
Actually I think the real question is, what is the best method for finding answers to the question of how it all cam to be.

1. Magic done it. Lazy man method, no more reasons to think.

2. Observation, testing, verification.  This takes work.


I quite agree, I think mankinds curiosity to know (the lazy ones need something to refer to? Even though it is nonsensical!) and the unending quest to find out will one day reveal the truth, but I don't think you or I will be here to witness it!!
The difficulty is in keeping an open mind....

Offline Traveler

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2009, 11:56:46 AM »
...one ponders how something can come from nothing.......

I ponder it, but I don't worry about it. Ultimately, I don't feel that it matters whether a god exists or not. I don't understand this urgency of many religious folks to glom onto an explanation, any explanation, in the face of uncertainty. So we don't know how we "started." So what? What's wrong with continueing to look, to ask, and to not insist we have all the answers.

If a greater being were to exist, why would it want us ignorant, blind to evidence, and fawning all over it?

By the way, I have aunts, uncles and cousins who believe in the bible as literal truth. Don't ask me which bible ... I'm not sure, but they're Missouri synod (sp?) lutherans I think. To them, the earth is six thousand years old, dinosaur bones are a trick, and we most certainly did not come from apes. Some days I'm embarrassed to claim them as relatives.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2009, 12:04:22 PM »
It is all a big time loop that was caused by the LHC. When we fire it up, the whole universe will both cease to be and cease to be not (See, you don't need the word of God in your ear to spout circular bullshit). The whole thing will restart and begin a new 15 billion year countdown to the creation of the next LHC.

Humanity, in its search for the origins of its creation becomes the instrument of its own birth... thus fulfilling every SPAGs greatest wet dream. Well, every SPAG that had a hand in the creation and operation of the LHC, at any rate.

Okay, maybe not, but it is just as likely an explanation for the origins of the universe as any of the prescribed doctrines. I agree with Traveler. I find it amusing that your average theist can NOT accept the idea that the universe sprang from nothingness but it ain't no thang for God to spawn from the nether.
"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

~Tyler Durden

Offline towag

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 12:27:14 PM »

If a greater being were to exist, why would it want us ignorant, blind to evidence, and fawning all over it?


For part of your reply, We have to start somewhere and we all have to learn rationally or not. That is much determined by what influences one has in early developement and whether or not one can arise above the dogma. Sadly not all of us can think that way.....
As for worrying about it is not the question I pose..... worrying is pointless as well as fruitless.....

Nobody as yet can prove either one way or the other..... I think the debate or argument (some quite militant and devisory) on these type of forums always comes back to the same question and it seems there are fundamentalists on both sides!!
The difficulty is in keeping an open mind....

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 06:58:17 PM »
Well it seems I am being educated here, going through the chaff and wheat and what would deem worth pondering I have come to put my position at about the pantheist approach to whether or not a "god" exists..... still agnostic I think..... complete Atheist not yet.....
I would have to admit that I find it difficult to imagine a Universe coming from nothing etc etc.....
As far as I'm aware, no scientist is claiming it came from nothing at this point.

However, we're still left with the question of where it came from even if it came from something, and if it did where that something came from.
Causality may not be the best way to think about it, especially in light of quantum mechanics and curved dimensions.

Point of interest: the big bang theory was derided as theist crap at the beginning exactly because it seemed to confirm what creationists had been saying all along - that the universe had not existed forever.
Of course, I don't see how a universe having existed forever is any more or less dumbfounding than one that came into being.

Quote
It seems to me that the odds are just too great for it all to happen just by coincidence....
There's a third way beyond accidant and purpose. Evolution illustrates it quite nicely. How probable is it that your exact genetic code would exist in you, at this time, at this point in space? Utterly negligible. However, it is highly probable that something would exist. Maybe not human life, maybe not even life, and maybe not even matter. But something. Something similar has been suggested for the natural laws.
In terms of a cosmic perspective, you're insignificant. You only attribute significance to yourself because you're here and thinking yourself important is an evolutionary trait (same for me, of course). There's a great many interactions just as complex as you are going on without the benefit of sentience.

We simply don't have enough information to judge yet whether it has all been an accident or if universes naturally bear life. Life may be hypothetically available in many forms, even just in our universe.
The big bang may have been just a result from a big crunch, meaning there'd have been a string of universes "before" ours, making an eventual appearance of something capable of asking "why" a certainty.

And, that leads us back to the first question ...
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
-xphobe

Offline towag

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Re: Pantheist?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 06:22:25 AM »
Every time, every time.......  Whatever the human mind can come up with rationally is possible..... 400 years ago you would have been burnt at the stake for saying that men will fly....... 
The difficulty is in keeping an open mind....