Author Topic: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent  (Read 2961 times)

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Offline VacuusMonastica

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Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« on: November 17, 2009, 09:35:02 AM »
After watching this below, my wife said to me that we should take our daughter to church because it builds strong family. I replied, "Bullcrap."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#33987966


What are your opinions? Why through all the advice given is giving a child a false sense that there is something bigger out there a good thing for a fragil, developing psyche?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 09:59:53 AM »
I agree...except for the kids molested by priests, Mormons, etc.  And don't forget that church in Kansas with its signs and close family ties.  Yes, religion is so good for bringing the family together.  I would guess a trip to Disney World might do that also.  They are both built around imaginary characters. ;)
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Offline Aerial

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 10:04:57 AM »
My buffering is so slow I rarely watch vids...I hope I get the point without viewing it.
I realise many theist parents will indoctrinate their kids with their beliefs....the only argument I have with this is freedom for the child to explore with the parents praise. If a child cannot explore other things he/she has heard about? wow too sad and horrible.
My son is an Atheist,,,he is 18yrs old, no doubt I somehow influenced him, although i always tried to give impartial viewpoints on alternatives. Is it any better to raise a closeminded Atheist child? I worry about that. I think that any closemindedness is dangerous. If my son finds religion at some point I will not discourage him...he will know my beliefs, but i will not tell him it is wrong to explore.
Is the vid more about setting up false beliefs? How damaging that might be? Well I think part of life is to learn about disappointment. Many of us Atheists have learnt the disappointment of realising there is no God....I think we survived and we are pretty bloody intelligent people. So no, I do not think it is that bad.
Ummm I might think differently when i sober up though...please do not hold this against me.
LOL can I be banned for being continuously drunk?  :D

Offline GetMeThere

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 10:15:38 AM »
1) Tell your wife that basing how your raise your kids on a two-minute TV talk-show interview with an otherwise unknown expert isn't very....thoughtful or well-considered.

2) The HUGE, GAPING flaw in all such "studies" is the "correlation is cause" fallacy that is RAMPANT among them. If they find (a made up example) that kids who regularly attend church score 10 points higher on SATs than kids who don't, that DOESN'T MEAN that sending your kid to church will raise their SAT score!!

3) People who truly excel do NOT arise from the sort of mediocrity being recommended in that interview. People who excel invariably have a greater tendency for independent thought. What's recommended in the interview is making your kid a better cog in the machinery of society (something which, apparently, especially women have a tendency to think is a WONDERFUL aspiration!).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 10:17:10 AM by GetMeThere »

Offline PinkMilk

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 10:20:14 AM »
That was one of the most manipulative reasons to put taking your children to church on the list I think anyone could have conceived.  The lady flat out says it to instill the idea of not disappointing a parent.  So it is essentially insinuating the notion that if you don't believe in the same things as your parent you are disappointing them.  While I agree that this statement is true.  My parents have always been disappointed that I never bought into their brand of religion, or any religion.  But to suggest that taking them to church to prevent them from doing so is absolutely manipulative and wrong.  The guy also suggests that it is a way to instill morals into your child.  It completely ignores all the other ways in which children learn morality.  He says that it gives them the sense that there is something bigger out there than themselves.  Well there is, it's called society, not god.  I'd love to see what there sample was like for this list.
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

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Offline bahramthered

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 10:47:49 AM »
I call bull. They admit it's about time, and even use the dreaded word spirituality. Not faith, not god, not anything but some vague mobojo about believing in something more than yourself.

This duo does not impress me. They're just reciting the old standard line; family first.

Offline PinkMilk

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 11:11:51 AM »
While clearly the emphasis is on time, and they did choose to use the word spirituality, the few other select comments they chose to make about it seemed to be very manipulative on the part of any parent who would do this.

If it truly is all about spending time together, there are many other things that can be done instead of going to church.  Including activities that actually allow you to participate in family discussion while you do them. 

GetMeThere is dead on about taking advice from a TV interview. 
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline Hermes

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2009, 11:45:24 AM »
JRF2k, conversely, you can tell her that it might be a good idea to expose your kid to *all* religions and go to one a week or learn about one a week.  Followed by a non-leading quiz and answer period afterward, of course.  After all, if one religion is good (bah!), then all of them should be really really good.  Along those lines;

52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
http://blogthereligions.com
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2009, 12:14:43 PM »
My friends and I somehow managed to raise atheist kids who seem to be doing just fine. They are school teachers, middle management, community organizers and scientists. They are responsible, value friends and family, contribute to their community and in general enjoy life. Like others, they lack perfection, but they make up for it by being decent people.

Church is no more required than bowling. With the first you share bad ideas, with the second bad shoes. Better to avoid the crap you can voluntarily elude to make time for the stuff that's worth it.

In the circle of friends I had back in my "family" years, when the kids were growing up, nobody went to church except for weddings and funerals. One of my friends has a daughter who now goes regularly, but otherwise as far as I know none of the others do (we're talking 30 plus kids in total). Not one of that group has ever been in trouble with the law, had serious drug problems or anything else worth worrying about. Many are nearing 40 and still doing just fine. That hasn't even been a divorce yet.

Two younger friends I have now with growing children that have gone to church haven't been as lucky. One child has just finished her second drug treatment program for meth, while another still goes to church every week in an alcoholic stupor. The first is 16, the second about 20.

In both cases, those are small samples, and certainly much wider variations exist than those that I have experienced. But overall I'm pretty darned sure artificial stories about made-up dudes with inconsistent lesson plans and lousy attitudes aren't really required.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2009, 12:28:11 PM »
Taking your kids to church would just keep the wheels of delusional ideas rolling, and give false beliefs a certain validation.

I wish I could have had some say in whether I was taken to church or not. I regret that I was exposed to so much stupidity and superstition.  For your children's sake, I BEG you not to do it.



It is a remarkable coincidence that almost everyone has the same religion as their parents and it always just so happens they’re the right religion.  (Richard Dawkins)


All religious beliefs seem weird to people not brought up in them.  (Richard Dawkins)
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Offline GetMeThere

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 01:06:50 PM »
JRF2k, conversely, you can tell her that it might be a good idea to expose your kid to *all* religions and go to one a week or learn about one a week.  Followed by a non-leading quiz and answer period afterward, of course.  After all, if one religion is good (bah!), then all of them should be really really good.  Along those lines;

52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
http://blogthereligions.com

Right, this is Daniel Dennetts' idea--that religion SHOULD be taught in schools--teach all religions, including "cargo cults." The idea seems to drive theists CRAZY! (as can be seen in the Dennett-D'Souza debate on youtube). I think it's an excellent idea.

Offline GetMeThere

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 01:09:04 PM »
A nice little social study, ParkingPlaces. Nice to hear!

Offline Hermes

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 05:59:48 PM »
Right, this is Daniel Dennetts' idea--that religion SHOULD be taught in schools--teach all religions, including "cargo cults." The idea seems to drive theists CRAZY! (as can be seen in the Dennett-D'Souza debate on youtube). I think it's an excellent idea.

Dennett helped me develop my thinking skills years ago when I read The Mind's I compilation and commentary that he wrote with Hofstadter.[1]  I always think more deeply after reading or listening to Dennett.

D'Souza, though, seems to be incapable of the same type of engendering the same type of thoughtful reflection on his words and comments.  I feel dumber after an encounter with him.  He is an embarrassment to his 'side' and it's surprising he has any following.
 1. Though I admit to picking up Mind's I because of Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach, not Dennett's name draw.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline ksm

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 08:17:46 PM »
D'Souza, though, seems to be incapable of the same type of engendering the same type of thoughtful reflection on his words and comments.  I feel dumber after an encounter with him.  He is an embarrassment to his 'side' and it's surprising he has any following.

I certainly agree with the first two sentences Hermes, but the third is no surprise to me.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 08:28:20 PM »
D'Souza, though, seems to be incapable of the same type of engendering the same type of thoughtful reflection on his words and comments.  I feel dumber after an encounter with him.  He is an embarrassment to his 'side' and it's surprising he has any following.

I certainly agree with the first two sentences Hermes, but the third is no surprise to me.

One take on D'Souza;

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/11/dinesh-dsouza-christianitys-silliest.html

Conversely, I haven't read anyone who boldly supports D'Souza, but he seems to serve some purpose since enough people support him speaking up.  That's what makes him at all interesting; what does it say about those who should reject him but don't.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline ksm

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 08:20:38 PM »
Informative read since I don't keep up with these people on a regular basis, thank you.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 03:41:12 AM »
My buffering is so slow I rarely watch vids...I hope I get the point without viewing it.
I realise many theist parents will indoctrinate their kids with their beliefs....the only argument I have with this is freedom for the child to explore with the parents praise. If a child cannot explore other things he/she has heard about? wow too sad and horrible.
My son is an Atheist,,,he is 18yrs old, no doubt I somehow influenced him, although i always tried to give impartial viewpoints on alternatives. Is it any better to raise a closeminded Atheist child? I worry about that. I think that any closemindedness is dangerous. If my son finds religion at some point I will not discourage him...he will know my beliefs, but i will not tell him it is wrong to explore.
Is the vid more about setting up false beliefs? How damaging that might be? Well I think part of life is to learn about disappointment. Many of us Atheists have learnt the disappointment of realising there is no God....I think we survived and we are pretty bloody intelligent people. So no, I do not think it is that bad.
Ummm I might think differently when i sober up though...please do not hold this against me.
LOL can I be banned for being continuously drunk?  :D
From this I can assume you believe yourself to be an atheist, but by what is written I doubt that! it could just be the drink talking, however.
Two points. 1, atheist are far from closed minded, to be atheist is to be completely open minded, we are open to any evidence anybody cares to put forward whereas a theist, has made up his mind in the singular. And 2, to realise the is no god and the enlightenment that brings is far from disappointing. To know that your a good person for all the right reasons is great.
I'd study up on what it is to be atheist, if I was you. Those sort of sentences, are ones the theist would say.
My children are getting an open and neutral education, in regard to religions they see the world from several different view points in order to make an educated decision. that is open mindedness
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Offline Snowflake

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 12:04:43 PM »
Exposing children to different religions is extremely important, because hopefully what we are doing is illustrating that different people have different ideas, many of them opposing in ways, and so the child can examine that and learn to think critically.  Of course, thinking critically is the greatest threat to religion, so it wouldn't be surprising if the child ends up agnostic or atheist!

Additionally, I think that learning about prominent religions is important because of the influence they have on society.  I live in the U.S. and Christianity is (obviously) very influential on how people act, who they vote for, etc.  It's important for someone growing up in this society to understand the beliefs and motivations of Christians, because they are going to encounter Christianity's influence so frequently.  (I also live in Michigan, so some understanding of Islam probably wouldn't hurt, too!)

My stepson is 13, and his stepmother and father have taught him all about the Jesus mythology.  (His father, by the way, has been arrested many, many times for things like assault and failure to pay child support.  He has a record of violence against women specifically.  Classy dude, and wonderful Christian!) 

So, my wife and I ("evil" agnostics with no history of violence or arrests*) asked him one day if he believed it.  He said that he did.  So I asked him a very simple question: "Why?"

He was quiet and I watched the wheels of his mind turning.  I think he finally said something like "I don't know."

So I said "A lot of people believe that story, and believe that Jesus was God.  And maybe it's true.  But it's also possible that it's a made-up story."

The only thing I've ever driven home is that I want him to research, think, and make his own decision when it comes to spiritual or religious belief.  He could end up a Christian, Muslim, deist, atheist, whatever, and it will be okay with me, as long as he got there by thinking and making his own decision.

*In the interest of honesty, I guess I have been arrested once.  For unpaid traffic tickets.  Yeah, I'm a hard one.


Offline velkyn

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2009, 02:32:53 PM »
when I realized that church was nonsense, the people no better than anyone else, etc, that made me irate at my parents, though they simply bought the crap (and still buy it) because they were ignorant. I am working on that.  I found that the bible and the religion are not at all "family" friendly.

When parents tell falsehoods for no matter what reason, that can turn on them.  Take drugs and alcohol, oooh it' so bad but when you try them, not so much.  What else are my parents not telling me?
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Offline Aerial

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2009, 07:18:59 AM »
My buffering is so slow I rarely watch vids...I hope I get the point without viewing it.
I realise many theist parents will indoctrinate their kids with their beliefs....the only argument I have with this is freedom for the child to explore with the parents praise. If a child cannot explore other things he/she has heard about? wow too sad and horrible.
My son is an Atheist,,,he is 18yrs old, no doubt I somehow influenced him, although i always tried to give impartial viewpoints on alternatives. Is it any better to raise a closeminded Atheist child? I worry about that. I think that any closemindedness is dangerous. If my son finds religion at some point I will not discourage him...he will know my beliefs, but i will not tell him it is wrong to explore.
Is the vid more about setting up false beliefs? How damaging that might be? Well I think part of life is to learn about disappointment. Many of us Atheists have learnt the disappointment of realising there is no God....I think we survived and we are pretty bloody intelligent people. So no, I do not think it is that bad.
Ummm I might think differently when i sober up though...please do not hold this against me.
LOL can I be banned for being continuously drunk?  :D
From this I can assume you believe yourself to be an atheist, but by what is written I doubt that! it could just be the drink talking, however.
Two points. 1, atheist are far from closed minded, to be atheist is to be completely open minded, we are open to any evidence anybody cares to put forward whereas a theist, has made up his mind in the singular. And 2, to realise the is no god and the enlightenment that brings is far from disappointing. To know that your a good person for all the right reasons is great.
I'd study up on what it is to be atheist, if I was you. Those sort of sentences, are ones the theist would say.
My children are getting an open and neutral education, in regard to religions they see the world from several different view points in order to make an educated decision. that is open mindedness

Yeah I know...my son has a disadvantage...luckily he is very smart. He seems to fill in the blanks where i fuck up.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2009, 01:30:49 PM »
I found that the bible and the religion are not at all "family" friendly.


The Bible identifies 15 crimes against the family worthy of the death penalty.  Abortion is treason against the family and deserves the death penalty. Adultery is treason to the family; adulterers should be put to death.  Homosexuality is treason to the family, and it too, is worthy of death.  (R.J. Rushdoony)
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2009, 08:16:24 PM »
JRF2k, conversely, you can tell her that it might be a good idea to expose your kid to *all* religions and go to one a week or learn about one a week.  Followed by a non-leading quiz and answer period afterward, of course.  After all, if one religion is good (bah!), then all of them should be really really good.  Along those lines;

52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
http://blogthereligions.com

Thanks, Hermes.
52 weeks is a fun web site, much more fun than rr-bb.com, where  Ambassador Pony sent me to see the scariest side of christianity.  I've got to post there.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 08:18:59 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2009, 08:54:43 PM »
[ tips hat ]
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline GetMeThere

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2009, 09:47:35 PM »
[ tips hat ]

Don't you mean:  [ tips winged helmet ]  ??

Offline Hermes

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Re: Six Crucial Steps In Making You A Better Parent
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2009, 10:23:16 PM »
Consider it a modernization.   &)
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer