Author Topic: I don't understand...  (Read 9734 times)

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Offline Count Iblis

Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2009, 07:42:51 PM »
Is anyone on this site an amputee or know any amputees? I wonder how amputees feel, if they are mostly christian or not christian because when something like that happens in life it either makes people lose faith or have stronger faith.

My foreskin was amputated when I was a baby. I'd like it to grow back.
Religion is an act of sedition against reason.--P.Z. Myers

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Offline I am become relevant

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2009, 10:25:25 AM »
I'd also like to point out that cancer/aids/..etc and other such 'diseases' can sometimes get 'cured'. An amputee getting healed at this point of time would be as close to miraculous as you could get.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2009, 12:42:23 PM »
if an amputee were healed and with proper documentation etc etc i'd convert to a religion
not kidding
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline I am become relevant

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2009, 12:45:41 PM »
if an amputee were healed and with proper documentation etc etc i'd convert to a religion
not kidding

How would you get around choosing one?
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I'm a muslim.
No I won't email you a bomb if you tick me off, but only because I don't know how to.

Offline DL

Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2009, 01:12:26 PM »
I don't understand the point of the main site... how can amputees be healed?? they can't really grow limbs... not being rude here, I just don't see the point of this.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

Offline One Above All

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2009, 02:03:58 PM »
if an amputee were healed and with proper documentation etc etc i'd convert to a religion
not kidding

How would you get around choosing one?

dunno but i'd convert
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2009, 04:35:13 PM »
ah true, good point. Ok I guess I see the point now, god should be able to heal amputees because supposedly "nothing is impossible for him"

Well almost nothing. He seems to have a hard time appearing in person for some reason.

God also struggles with iron chariots.

Judges 1:19
Quote
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
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Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2009, 06:12:59 AM »
if an amputee were healed and with proper documentation etc etc i'd convert to a religion
not kidding
Wouldn't that be kind of hasty? It's not like WWGHA is the only good argument against the veracity of religion ... Try praying for something that doesn't exist, say. Pray for an echolocative sensory organ. Or infrared sight.
Well, I guess that's what you meant by "proper documentation" ...


Even then, how to be sure this was a god, if it's even causally correlated with prayer to said god, if it's a complete quantum fluke that happens ones in a googol universe's lifetimes, an unlikely mass delusion, or the effect of magical healing rays sent in random directions by a benign hyperdimensional race looking suspiciously like MoO2's Trilarians by copulating with a huge pink fluffy cloud of laminated cotton candy that was before snifted in moft and thoroughly glurbled (it has to be glurbled or else destef sargub nhm).
There's an infinite number of possible explanations for any phenomenon you know is supernatural in origin (however that's supposed to work) but know nothing else about. You'd have no basis for deciding what is plausible and what's not in regards to it. You can't even assign the label "unexplainable" without commiting a fallacy simply because you don't even know enough to conclude that.

In short, still no reason to believe in anything in particular - just like the myriad of unexplained phenomena that are well-documented but poorly understood (like quantum mechanics' objective randomness, the formation of freak waves, spontaneous remissions, dark matter/energy, etc).
Even if Y were well-documented and accessible to quantitative analysis, it wouldn't necessitate any god (although it may at least point that way heavily in principle); but we might assign some values/attributes to X and search for patterns.

Seems perfectly naturalistic to me, though. I mean, you can describe patterns very well without having the slightest idea about the underlying structure or any proof of their validity (objective randomness itself). Seems qualitatively different ofrom religious belief as is, too - we're talking about a scientific theory that necessitates a god.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
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Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2009, 01:04:09 AM »
If god healed amputees, then he would have heal all the wounded, then heal mental sicknesses of people, then heal poverty etc....if he took physical form and healed everything we would be living in a "heaven on earth".  It would be too easy...

We live in this lifetime in this non-perfect world, think of it as an application....everyday you are faced with challenges which is determined by a choice.  Some people are born with mental or physical defects, some are born with a silver spoon in their mouth.  There are good and evil events always occuring, you ever get to that point where you have to make a choice in either going to the mall with your friends or helping out your mother with housework....small choices will always cause a chain effect in outcome...

Now I'm not implying that going out to the mall with your friends over helping your mother is the wrong choice...everyone has there view on whats right and wrong to begin with...I just used it as an example, but you can't deny that everyones actions can have the possibilty of effecting someones life.

You meet a girl at a bar who later becomes your wife, you made the choice to go out that night, somethign so simple that would have swayed you away would have not resulted in this...she also made the choice to go out that night. 
Now to the point of this rambling....see next post

I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2009, 01:17:11 AM »
You go out and do a good deed for your community, atheist or not...you do something good for someone...

Small good deed or something as big as donating blood...Ok lets choose donating blood.  Now you may take this for granted and think this is no big deal, but you made the choice to helping a person in the future who will need this. Lets look at all the factors here before we come to a possible outcome.

 Red Cross (which was founded MOSTLY by European christians by the way sorry just had to throw that in there :)
Takes your blood and gives it to someone in need. (Lets call the Donatee Alex) They say 1 pint of blood can save up to 3 lives.  Lets say you just save 1 life in the process...you have just affected the life of someone, who can possibly have a wife so it affects them, the mother, the father, the friends, the children.  This is a chain reaction that holds more value than most think of.  Now lets say 7 peoples lives (the relatives) were affected heavily for the better because Alex was saved from the donation of blood.  The next day the relatives moods are different and the wife, father and mother who go to work with all those employees act differently then they would if they had lost Alex. 


Chain reaction is stronger than most think so never take it for granted...God doesn't take physically form and interefere with our lives because he wants US, his Creation to think for ourselves...It would be too easy, but my overall point in this is....If you read this promise yourself you will do something good for either your community or family tommorow that you normally wouldn't do.
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2009, 01:55:14 AM »
ah true, good point. Ok I guess I see the point now, god should be able to heal amputees because supposedly "nothing is impossible for him"

Well almost nothing. He seems to have a hard time appearing in person for some reason.

God also struggles with iron chariots.

Judges 1:19
Quote
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
God is like Superman, Iron is his kryptonite  :P
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Offline anthony_retford

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2009, 07:26:10 AM »
I am always amazed at the people who claim god healed them, and only them of course, unless another relative is involved, when hundreds of thousands of victims of AIDS in Africa slowly pray and die yet we hear nothing of their being healed. What supreme arrogance to say their originator of the universe is personally interested in individual people in the USA but ignores millions elsewhere. It just shows the universe of some people is just surrounding them and has no room for others.

If god does not want to heal an amputee for some reason, although I can't think of why when he said he would answer any request for help, then how about a bent spine (head drop and camptocormia, where it is not possible to straighten the neck or back voluntarily)? That only needs muscle revitalization and bone straightening, surely not beyond the scope of a god. But I have never heard of any withered muscles being restored, let alone bones being aligned. If anyone knows of such events in scientific journals please post the evidence.

I once encountered a beautiful young woman in Haungzhou, China inside a bus station. She was severely deformed. In China you often see people like that. I wondered then why she was so afflicted if there was a god, but since I figured there wasn't I knew it was just life for her and the others. In the same vein, what about thalidomide babies? I am sure many people prayed for them but was there any report of any healed?
People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe.
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Offline anthony_retford

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2009, 07:30:40 AM »
You go out and do a good deed for your community, atheist or not...you do something good for someone...

Small good deed or something as big as donating blood...Ok lets choose donating blood.  Now you may take this for granted and think this is no big deal, but you made the choice to helping a person in the future who will need this. Lets look at all the factors here before we come to a possible outcome.

 Red Cross (which was founded MOSTLY by European christians by the way sorry just had to throw that in there :)
Takes your blood and gives it to someone in need. (Lets call the Donatee Alex) They say 1 pint of blood can save up to 3 lives.  Lets say you just save 1 life in the process...you have just affected the life of someone, who can possibly have a wife so it affects them, the mother, the father, the friends, the children.  This is a chain reaction that holds more value than most think of.  Now lets say 7 peoples lives (the relatives) were affected heavily for the better because Alex was saved from the donation of blood.  The next day the relatives moods are different and the wife, father and mother who go to work with all those employees act differently then they would if they had lost Alex. 


Chain reaction is stronger than most think so never take it for granted...God doesn't take physically form and interefere with our lives because he wants US, his Creation to think for ourselves...It would be too easy, but my overall point in this is....If you read this promise yourself you will do something good for either your community or family tommorow that you normally wouldn't do.


Yes, and a butterfly beats its wings in the Amazon.
People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe.
Max Bazenman, Harvard University

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2009, 10:03:29 PM »
God has healed me, I've been helped through god on many occassions that in no way shape or form was coincidental.

Shall I tell you?
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2009, 10:22:23 PM »
Go ahead.
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2009, 12:04:47 AM »
Coincidence or not...

I got laid off from my job 1 year ago due a declining economy.  Had a car payment coming up as well as my rent due so I was a little on the panicky side.  Went out to the beach to get my mind off everything.  I was sitting by the water that same day looking out into the ocean.  This is the same spot where I have prayed for many years everytime something bad happened to me in my life. 

Well I stayed there for a while and actually fell asleep as the sun came down, I dozed off for a few minutes and had a dream about an angelic figure flew down slowly from the sky above me smiling at me from a distance, it was as if I watching this in a 3rd person view.  I saw my body lying there as the angelic wings covered my body....It was an unreal vision, the wings were roughly 6 feet in length from both sides.  I can describe more if you want but lets get to the good part.  I awakened and was a little gasped from the dream,I remember my heart was racing.  I stood up and looked in the direction where the angel was, I saw nothing so I knew it was a dream.....I layed there for a bit I'd say about 10 mins and low and behold a flyer for a job fair flew in front of me, it was about 5 feet away and the wind had a good grasp on it.  I got up and took a look at it, too make a very long story short, I went to the job fair, got interviewed for a job position they were showing on the flyer and got in the next week. 

beautiful story right.  This was close to sundown so there wasn't too many people there.  Coincidence or not....hmmmm oh thats just one...I got a bad one for you guys.
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2009, 12:43:13 AM »
Coincidence or not...

I got laid off from my job 1 year ago due a declining economy.  Had a car payment coming up as well as my rent due so I was a little on the panicky side.  Went out to the beach to get my mind off everything.  I was sitting by the water that same day looking out into the ocean.  This is the same spot where I have prayed for many years everytime something bad happened to me in my life. 

Well I stayed there for a while and actually fell asleep as the sun came down, I dozed off for a few minutes and had a dream about an angelic figure flew down slowly from the sky above me smiling at me from a distance, it was as if I watching this in a 3rd person view.  I saw my body lying there as the angelic wings covered my body....It was an unreal vision, the wings were roughly 6 feet in length from both sides.  I can describe more if you want but lets get to the good part.  I awakened and was a little gasped from the dream,I remember my heart was racing.  I stood up and looked in the direction where the angel was, I saw nothing so I knew it was a dream.....I layed there for a bit I'd say about 10 mins and low and behold a flyer for a job fair flew in front of me, it was about 5 feet away and the wind had a good grasp on it.  I got up and took a look at it, too make a very long story short, I went to the job fair, got interviewed for a job position they were showing on the flyer and got in the next week. 

beautiful story right.  This was close to sundown so there wasn't too many people there.  Coincidence or not....hmmmm oh thats just one...I got a bad one for you guys.
Sounds like it could be a coincidence to me, got anything else?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2009, 12:49:39 AM »
yeah I mean considering ive been to that beach many times in my life and have never seen many loose papers ever flown (and wow a loose paper I needed) around at that same exact spot while i was there, specially after I just lost my job10 mins after I awoke....I will tell you this though I was definitely in the right place at the right time.

I will tell another one that involved my friend this one you can actually argue and it sounds more believable to you if you thought i made that one up, which you didn't so I praise you on that.  but, im going to bed now.

Sometimes your mind can play tricks on you, but it seems so fricken real that it gets you wondering.

In the meantime if you have any cool coincidential stories you want to share I will read it tommorow. or the next time I get on.
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2009, 12:58:06 AM »
Eh, I don't really have any stories of God helping me out, but I guess that's why I'm athiest  ;D

Another reason I am is that I always get this ominous, guilty feeling. It goes against a lot of what I believe in, equal love for homosexuals, descrimination, etc. And then there's the whole Flood and 6 day creation thing, which I think is pretty unbelieveable. And what created God? There's a lot of problems I have with Christianity in general, which many Christians have failed to explain, besides saying "Have faith!"
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Aerial

Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2009, 12:58:42 AM »
How can you believe that God or Angels guided you to a job, yet they do not stop a child from being macheted in the head in Rwanda?
How can that make sense to you?

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2009, 01:19:50 AM »
saving a child getting macheted requires physical intervention....Angels are not permitted interfere with life on earth anymore...at least for now.  Besides if you saw an angel flying in physical form you would be nuts not to believe in the supernatural which means you would probably believe in god, which means it was easy for you to make the choice on whether or not you believe in god.  I don't think god wanted it to work out that way, but who am I to judge my creator.

Back to this You can speculate that maybe the angel kept me there in that spot because he knew aid  was coming?  Maybe it was my own mind playing tricks and just a wierd coincidence.  I've read alot about sleep paralysis and stages of sleep after that occured.  But still why that very day at that time, in that spot after dreaming about that....its wierd NOW I GOTTA TO GO TO BED.
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2009, 01:22:51 AM »
saving a child getting macheted requires physical intervention....Angels are not permitted interfere with life on earth anymore...at least for now.  Besides if you saw an angel flying in physical form you would be nuts not to believe in the supernatural which means you would probably believe in god, which means it was easy for you to make the choice on whether or not you believe in god.  I don't think god wanted it to work out that way, but who am I to judge my creator.

Back to this You can speculate that maybe the angel kept me there in that spot because he knew aid  was coming?  Maybe it was my own mind playing tricks and just a wierd coincidence.  I've read alot about sleep paralysis and stages of sleep after that occured.  But still why that very day at that time, in that spot after dreaming about that....its wierd NOW I GOTTA TO GO TO BED.
God had a Bible written, and sent his son, who is him, down from Heaven to be killed. He caused a worldwide flood, and other genocides. I don't think he's worried about being mysterious.

God or the angel or whatever sent the poster to you, isn't that physical intervention?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline Prepareforthefuture

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2009, 01:23:35 AM »
No because I was sleeping
I am here as a friend, debator of faith, guide, and listener whether you believe in what I believe in or not.  You are still my brothers and sisters.  I have much to tell.  May the lord smile upon thee

Offline One Above All

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2009, 02:04:15 AM »
Coincidence or not...

I got laid off from my job 1 year ago due a declining economy.  Had a car payment coming up as well as my rent due so I was a little on the panicky side.  Went out to the beach to get my mind off everything.  I was sitting by the water that same day looking out into the ocean.  This is the same spot where I have prayed for many years everytime something bad happened to me in my life. 

Well I stayed there for a while and actually fell asleep as the sun came down, I dozed off for a few minutes and had a dream about an angelic figure flew down slowly from the sky above me smiling at me from a distance, it was as if I watching this in a 3rd person view.  I saw my body lying there as the angelic wings covered my body....It was an unreal vision, the wings were roughly 6 feet in length from both sides.  I can describe more if you want but lets get to the good part.  I awakened and was a little gasped from the dream,I remember my heart was racing.  I stood up and looked in the direction where the angel was, I saw nothing so I knew it was a dream.....I layed there for a bit I'd say about 10 mins and low and behold a flyer for a job fair flew in front of me, it was about 5 feet away and the wind had a good grasp on it.  I got up and took a look at it, too make a very long story short, I went to the job fair, got interviewed for a job position they were showing on the flyer and got in the next week. 

beautiful story right.  This was close to sundown so there wasn't too many people there.  Coincidence or not....hmmmm oh thats just one...I got a bad one for you guys.

i had a dream in which i could fly and do pretty much anything
does this mean i'm a deity? no, because it's in my head. my brain controls my dreams and i control my brain
you dreamed what you wanted to happen
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Narrow Mullen

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2009, 09:20:39 AM »
No because I was sleeping
So it's not physical intervention that he would control a poster to fly to you, because you were sleeping?  :?
"Oh, I'll have a slice of heaven, a side of personal guidance, but no Leviticus today, I like my shrimp. Now, I've accepted Jesus, do you accept Master Card?"

Offline ksm

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2009, 12:11:10 AM »
No because I was sleeping

So god can intervene in a trivial matter like directing you to a new job (where was god when you lost your old job?), due to a technicality (you were asleep). However the same god cannot intervene in the case of the imminent brutal butchery of child because he is awake?

Do you understand why, questions of the existence of god aside, we might think that you are delusional, if not downright crazy to think such things?

Any human being who behaved this way (granting trivial miracles, while refusing to prevent atrocity) who had the power to act otherwise would be labeled as a monster.

Offline CutePuppy

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2009, 10:37:21 PM »
No because I was sleeping

So god can intervene in a trivial matter like directing you to a new job (where was god when you lost your old job?), due to a technicality (you were asleep). However the same god cannot intervene in the case of the imminent brutal butchery of child because he is awake?

Actually, that makes perfect sense. After all, we all know that the citizens of Rwanda never sleep. Especially the children. Always awake, the lil buggers. Such wisdom from biblegod is truly enlightening.

Offline parallel

Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2010, 05:34:13 AM »
There's one thing I don't understand which I hope you guys can explain.

Why can't I be a rabbit or a plant or a bacteria? Why am I born as a human? And even so, why am I in control of this character called "me" instead of someone else?

Offline Operator_020

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Re: I don't understand...
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2010, 08:44:54 AM »
Hi parallel,

Welcome to the forum.

You have posted in a thread where the previous post was 9 months ago.  Please do not do that.  Often times the original members who were involved in the conversation are gone and cannot respond. 

I would like to recommend you read our Forum Rules and Etiquette Guide before posting again.  Thanks.

To answer your question, "you" are a function of your brain, which is part of your body.  No brain, no you.  A dualistic approach to consciousness is an illusion.

I look forward to seeing you around. Happy posting.

020
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