What is the core message of Christianity?

[Admin]

Joldo started to lay out the core message of Christianity in another thread. Here is her starting point:

Here's the core of Christianity: Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Sacrifice yourself for your community. Give yourself, every single day, to making humanity better, and building the bonds of your community. This is as close as we'll get to Godliness in this world. And forgiveness. Forgiveness is a major part of Christianity. This is the story of Christ--to sacrifice totally and to forgive totally. This is how we are to live.

Breaking it down we have:

1) Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

2) Sacrifice yourself for your community.

3) Give yourself, every single day, to making humanity better, and building the bonds of your community.

4) Forgive totally

If we were to create a list of the core messages that define Christianity, what else would we add to this starting point?

[Dude]

Joldo started to lay out the core message of Christianity in another thread. Here is her starting point:

Here's the core of Christianity: Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Sacrifice yourself for your community. Give yourself, every single day, to making humanity better, and building the bonds of your community. This is as close as we'll get to Godliness in this world. And forgiveness. Forgiveness is a major part of Christianity. This is the story of Christ--to sacrifice totally and to forgive totally. This is how we are to live.

Breaking it down we have:

1) Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

2) Sacrifice yourself for your community.

3) Give yourself, every single day, to making humanity better, and building the bonds of your community.

4) Forgive totally

If we were to create a list of the core messages that define Christianity, what else would we add to this starting point?

Well I would think that  a core message of Christianity would  be a summation of John 3:16. That man is sinful and must believe/accept Jesus as Saviour and Son of God in order to enter the kingdom of God (Heaven). The above four items are ethically sound but I am not sure they are the core of Christianity. Whatever a core is it must include Jesus (or Trinity) at its center, I would think..

[Joldo]

Allow me to clarify: These are the rules which are justified best both by the Bible and life, to my mind. The Bible emphasizes community bonds, it emphasizes personal sacrifice and forgiveness (both of which are the essence of John 3:16, to my mind), and to love unconditionally. These are the rules Jesus seemed to follow through his life, and the very meaning of the word Christian is a person who attempts to act as Christ would. Since often the Bible offers no justification for why something is evil or good, I use these as a litmus test.

And by the way--

Here is her starting point:

--just for clarification, though I have a gender-ambiguous name, last time I checked I was male. *grins*

[jbehles]

well, also according to Christ in the Gospel of John, he states that our work here on earth is to "believe on the one whom God has sent" as a part of this list, but this goes without saying for the Christian, I think.

[shon]

Matthew Chapter 22 fits in there somewhere:

35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

[Joldo]

But how else do we show love to God? The praise and worship are well and good, but I've always thought it's easier to open a hymnal than to build a roof. What about "Whatever you do unto the least of my children, you do unto me"?

[jbehles]

Damn straight, faith without works is dead, but so is works apart from faith.  Gotta love that paradoxical truth.  Oh wait, i've given more ammo to the "take it out of context" crowd to use as a clear contradiction in the Bible. LOL

[fakers]

love the lord your god with all your heart

[Razor]

It was God who showed us Love.
It was God who showed us Mercy
It was God who extended HIS Grace towards us... how he did this is the Core message of the Christianity.

All that mankind receives, enjoys, and benefits from is due to the love of God demonstrated in the cross of Christ, in Christ alone. There is no other way for men to be saved and redeemed and made new other than in Christ alone. Jesus plus nothing really does result in everything for mankind.

Peace

[munificent]

Joldo started to lay out the core message of Christianity in another thread. Here is her starting point:
If we were to create a list of the core messages that define Christianity, what else would we add to this starting point?

Not being a Christian, I may be unqualified to comment on this. I think if we are to talk about the core message of Christianity, i.e. the message that distinguishes it from other beliefs, then we probably need to include things like Original Sin, Jesus as the Son of God, his sacrifice and other things like that.

Otherwise, you end up with a core message that also applies to many non-Christians, which doesn't seem very "core" to me.

[Bryan]

I think if we are to talk about the core message of Christianity, i.e. the message that distinguishes it from other beliefs

Taking into consideration this thread was started by "Admin" and also considering this is an Atheist website, I think the real purpose of this thread is for all of us to state different opinions about the core principles of Christianity. In order to give the illusion that not even Christians can agree upon what this is, in an attempt to discredit Christianity as a whole.

Just incase it is such a manipulation, I wont take part.

[human]

So the rest of this forum ISN'T on an 'Atheist' website? Uh oh! It's all manipulation!

The Admin, whoever he or she is, has shown him/herself to be a fair minded moderator who is amenable to correction or suggestion. If you can't find anything to correct him about, I guess he's right.

Claiming the game is rigged so you won't take part seems like a copout to me.

[HAL]

I think if we are to talk about the core message of Christianity, i.e. the message that distinguishes it from other beliefs

Taking into consideration this thread was started by "Admin" and also considering this is an Atheist website, I think the real purpose of this thread is for all of us to state different opinions about the core principles of Christianity. In order to give the illusion that not even Christians can agree upon what this is, in an attempt to discredit Christianity as a whole.

Just incase it is such a manipulation, I wont take part.

You just did.

[Bryan]

Claiming the game is rigged so you won't take part seems like a copout to me.

You obviously haven’t read any of my other posts if you think I’m one to copout of anything.

A discussion of the “Core message” of Christianity isn't something that can be address in a little forum. It would take a whole book. And - What do you know? - Someone has already written such a book. It’s called "Mere Christianity." It’s already been laid out in front of you plain as day, typed out in a nice neat format called a book. It is the core message that every Christian denomination has signed its signature of approval on.

If this conversation was purely meant to introduce non-Christians to the "Core," then the conversation is over, read the book.

However, if this conversation is meant for Christians to discuss there “opinion” of what is really important. Well a discussion such as that is better left on a Christian forum where people who are actually interested in the topic can actually take part in the discussion, rather than in front of a bunch of Atheist who are merely looking for a reason to criticize.

Here is what Rational said on another thread “atheists don't give a damn about the bible. We equate the fundamental beliefs of Christianity with those of the ancient Greek and Egyptian religions. I didn't become an atheist by reading the bible, I became an atheist by seeing for myself that there's no evidence for God.” So don't patronize me with your post trying to suggest that you care what the “core message” is. Everyone already knows Atheist “don’t give a damb.”

I mean, look at what already happened. I didn't even say anything about the “core beliefs” yet two people already tried to point out some kind of contradiction in what I wrote. And that is exactly what this thread is meant for. Admin simply thought “Hey, lets throw those  Christian a bone to distract them, and then as they are all arguing over the topic, we’ll just pick them off one-by-one by pointing out all those ‘contradiction’ and ‘disagreements’.”

That’s what I meant by “manipulation.”

Besides this conversation is point less. If I wish to logically convince you of the Truth of Jesus. How could I possibly do that if you don’t even believe in God, or even worse you don’t even believe in good and evil. So to a Christian who is concerned about what an Atheist thinks, the Christian must first deal with the Atheists arguments concerning things like, “there is no evidence of God.” And for that I refer you to any other of my other post, where I have done anything but "copped out".

[Heretik]

Taking into consideration this thread was started by "Admin" and also considering this is an Atheist website, I think the real purpose of this thread is for all of us to state different opinions about the core principles of Christianity. In order to give the illusion that not even Christians can agree upon what this is, in an attempt to discredit Christianity as a whole.

Bryan, I hate to sound rude but you're being a little ridiculous here. If you actually read the entirety of the first post, you would see that the question was initially brought up by Joldo, who for the record is a theist. It's easier to debate something when both sides have a clear view of the issue being debated, and the focus of this site is on Christianity, after all.

However, if this conversation is meant for Christians to discuss there “opinion” of what is really important. Well a discussion such as that is better left on a Christian forum where people who are actually interested in the topic can actually take part in the discussion, rather than in front of a bunch of Atheist who are merely looking for a reason to criticize.

Out of curiosity, what else are you here for if not to present your views on your beliefs and debate the veracity of those beliefs with skeptics? This forum isn't exactly the best choice if you only want people to agree with you.

[Bryan]

Heretik said:

Out of curiosity, what else are you here for if not to present your views on your beliefs and debate the veracity of those beliefs with skeptics? This forum isn't exactly the best choice if you only want people to agree with you.

I answered this question in my last paragraph. Let me restate what I said earlier, slightly clarified:

I said:

"If I wish to logically convince you of the Truth of Jesus. How could I possibly do that if you don’t even believe in God? Or even worse you don’t even believe in good and evil? For a Christian [that would be me] who is concerned about what an Atheist thinks, the Christian must first deal with the Atheists logical arguments concerning things like, “There is no evidence of God.”

Atheist pride themselves in their logical evaluation of their experiences. I can not merely ask an Atheist to abandon all their logic and just believe. I must deal with them on their own terms, on their own way of evaluating life. I must battle their logic with alternate interpretations of mankind’s experiences.

For instance Atheist ague, "God does not restore limbs, so God does not exist." I can't quote the Bible to discredit this statement, that would be useless because they don’t believe in the Bible. I must deal with the logic behind that statement. I must show a different logical way of interpreting that situation. And then I could perhaps show how the Bible agrees with this alternate logic. But the logic is the key, when dealing with someone who prides them self in their logic.

That is why I am here. Not to discuss Christianity with my other brothers and sister who already believe. That would be a diversion of my purpose. I am here to discuss logical evaluations of life that correspond with the belief of God, to non-believers.

[gnosys]

"Love your neighbor" is the original Jewish formulation.  Jesus says it is easy to love your spouse, your family, your friends and neighbors -- the real test is to love your [/i]enemy[i]!  In showing love to our fellow human beings -- even the least and most unworthy among them -- we are loving God.

It's true that Christ's death seems unnecessary and somewhat repellent when you consider it as an event which has happened in the past.  Perhaps the trick is to see the passion of Christ playing out right here, right now in front of us -- perhaps in everything we do.  In the same way that the Buddhists say that all life is suffering, Christians might say that all life is the passion of Christ, and that each of us at every moment has the choice of what role to play -- will we offer to help carry the cross, or will we join in the taunting and tormenting... or will we just look away and pretend it's none of our business?  In any case, all this suffering is infused and redeemed by God's presence and participation throughout.

Other core beliefs of Christianity:

Judge not lest you be judged.

Don't worry, be happy (i.e., the Lilies of the field...)

Seek the truth.

Become as a llittle child to enter the kingdom of heaven (i.e., let go of all opinions and prejudices; see the world with fresh eyes and you will see that it IS Heaven).

Do not seek worldly wealth or power.  Remember you are just a tourist here, so travel light.

Always give thanks to God.

Don't be a hypocrite.

[jag216]

These are some wonderful Sunday School answers.

If you would like to get to the core message, one has to ask the core questions of the text itself and gather as much information about the context as one can.

Religious fiction within the Judeo-Christian system appears to us a fusion of two cultural developments - patriarchal deliverance (founding of cities in the wadi/desert) and the collection of wisdom. "Wisdom" being technically defined as information that allows a group of people to survive from one generation to the next - i.e. life-giving information.

Religion and Science are not delineated categories in the Ancient Near East. I can't prove that the well of Jacob was planted by God. But at the time, I knew that there was such a well that was central to a community that claimed Jacob as their forebear, had a designated shrine and story, and generally a priest/prophet to explain it to me. The God of Jacob was not everywhere at once - the God of Jacob was responsible for saving Jacob's life in the desert, the proof of which is an existence of a community called by his name or a surrogate name.

I can't ask the comparative question, was Jacob really delivered by God. Whose authority can contest it? Granted, within given tolerances we may wish to believe or not - it depends on how much inaccuracy we are willing to put up with, and also how seriously we take our own opinions about the world around us and what it consists of.

If you are wandering in the desert and you find an oasis, you don't ask questions about its existence. At the same time, you look for certain signs before making commitments to walking towards it.

The collection of wisdom literature was not originally divided into two camps - human and divine wisdom. Wisdom was wisdom - it was not measured on the basis of its source but its soundness and validity. Civilizations did not always have the luxury of sterile experimentation that we have today, where we must assume contrived conditions scientificaly in order to assure that results can be consistently duplicated (under the contrived conditions, of course).

That being said, stories of God creating the universe and the wisdom gleaned from that universe freely blended together into an amalgam. This is not an unusual practice, even today. It's called a buyout/sellout. Ideas become the property of a stronger civilization. The best ideas are kept as a matter of self-preservation - those that do not lead to life generally are knocked out - fools die, and thus the wise don't need to worry about them if what they say is truly foolish.

Thus the bible, under the Davidic dynasty, assumes that it's roots are the strongest - that the covenant established by Moses (according to the story) and backed by Levi will persist into the Davidic house, making all the nations love Judah! Yay.

Well that didn't happen. The wisdom and relationships failed miserably. The people are divided and they begin asking serious questions about just what went wrong.

The division really asks the following question: How do we know what God wants? Due the the fusion of religion and science at the time, the equivalent question is, How do we learn what to do in the world we live in to survive?

Rules observed in nature are assumed to be rules established by the creator God. And yet something went horribly wrong!

Group 1 says: It's not the fault of the law, we simply haven't had a king who followed them properly. Once we have that, everything will be great.
Group 2 says: It's the fault of the law, because it contains laws from the people we previously were told to avoid (due to safety issues). We'll make a law that's even more strict and make EVERYONE adhere to it - not just the guy with the funny hat.
Group 3 says: The law given then does not necessarily apply to our present situation - we need to connect to the source of all this wisdom - we need (for lack of a better term) a prophet/scientist. They need to be pure for the best results, and they will lead us into something better.

This third group is the birth of what is referred to as the New Covenant - in other words, establishing a new connection between human endeavors and the world around us. And this is what, 450 years before Christ let's say.

Well it is well documented that these groups did not get along. Group 1 likes temples, Group 2 doesn't like the temples of Group 1 - in fact they see themselves as the purists who will have to clear out the remains of Group 1 as being unholy, and Group 3 thinks it's all irrelevant - the temple isn't going to help, and it just might hurt.

Thus, the Judahite religious 'core' is actually fragmented irreparably. Bring on the development of Genesis material. We establish a new covenant based on faith in the unknown - in stepping out of the confortable cliche of the temple/palace... of embracing a household that included cursed peoples... of adopting the new powerful role of women as citizenship bearers. But most importantly, rewriting the myth as stating that the primary purpose of human being is to provide life whenever and whever possible to those things that are dying.

It is not philisophical - it is functional. It appeals to the survival instinct and asks people to apply that pain mimetically. I see your struggles, I empathize with them as my own and I give you the love I would give to myself.

Groups 1 and 2 have a hard time arguing with this fundamental principle, and actually do a lot to try and show that this was what Moses meant all along. Yet struggles persist.

So the core message of the Judeo-Christian tradition is 'Give life where needed - do what God does with Creation.'

The testimony of Christ is supposed to not only prove that Group 3 was right in looking for contextual wisdom, but also was designed to show how powerful that philosophy was and how far it would go.

Under Paul's treatment, Christ has the potential to be the leader whom Groups 1, 2 and 3 can all unite under. The gospels, and Christ's sayings within them, are designed to draw and pacify the needs of Group 1 (the pharisees) but tend to continue the Malachi tradition of mocking Group 2 (the Zadokites/Sadducees).

Sacrifical purpose of Christ is designed to replace high temple authority.
Kingly role of Christ is designed to usurp reliance on Herod.

Both of these sets of comments get Jesus killed, according to the story.

These, however, are not the core message by which Christ actually accomplishes wonders. They are more like gateway experiences tailored for the cultural needs of certain segments of society. Keep in mind that no near eastern nation was as diversified as Judah was by choice - it was always the result of war, displacement, etc. And it made lots of people very uncomfortable - your enemy suddenly becomes your next-door neighbor, not your next-door nation.

If this seems too complex, consider that it is only as complex as the Judean society was at the time. And no, the Romans didn't care too much about that - they hated these internal national squabbles.