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Christianity Thomas on 03 Sep 2009 01:49 am

Christians admit the Bible is wrong

The Bible’s bad bits: silent women, mass murder and a weary concubine

Biblical verses apparently endorsing sexism, genocide and the slaughter of sorceresses have been identified by readers of a Christian website as the least endearing parts of the holy book.

14 Responses to “Christians admit the Bible is wrong”

  1. on 03 Sep 2009 at 6:54 pm 1.Twazzi said …

    Looks like some xtians have actually been reading their bibles. What they’ve found is a good start but it only brushes the surface of that ridiculous book.
    There are so many more psalms, scriptures etc that are away out to lunch. Let’s hope they don’t get
    frightened and put the “good book” down and rely on their financially worried priests, pastors and the Pope. These religious demigods are beginning to worry about where their share of the collection money has
    gone.

  2. on 04 Sep 2009 at 1:57 am 2.Bishop said …

    LOL, not endearing hardly means wrong. Dude has a problem with reading comprehension.

    Too bad atheist focus on what they find offensive when there is so much positive taught by Scripture. I mean atheism is a worldview responsible for the murder of multiple millions and yet they believe they have a moral hold over God.

    Maybe they would be a little less hostile if they loved their neighbor as themselves.

    Nah, too caught up in their little delusion.

  3. on 04 Sep 2009 at 6:21 pm 3.Snowflake said …

    I don’t think anyone is arguing that there is NOTHING positive in the Bible. Loving your neighbors is a pretty nice idea, actually.

    The point being made is that parts of the Bible are offensive or nonsensical. And those parts are evidence enough that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. If that’s the case, then how do we know its description of God is accurate?

    Two questions:

    First, how is atheism responsible for the murder of millions? The lack of belief in a deity is not a motivation for murder. Greed is. Anger is. The quest for power is. But these are independent of atheism – not believing in a god does not directly inspire any of these motivations to murder.

    One could argue that religion IS a motivator to murder – if someone believes that God is on their side as they kill the enemy, or that they will be rewarded for their deeds in the afterlife. But neither Christianity/Islam/Hinduism/etc. nor atheism is right or wrong simply based on what acts its adherents take part in. They are right or wrong based on if they are true or not. Christ was divine or he wasn’t. Mohammed was a true prophet or he wasn’t. An omniscient god exists or it doesn’t.

    Second, you refer to atheism as a delusion. How is lack of belief in a deity a delusion? There is no counter-evidence to atheism. One could argue existence itself is evidence of the supernatural, but not of the Biblical God or any specific deity. In fact, assigning so many attributes and moral codes to this unseen deity with no evidence to back it up is what is delusional.

  4. on 05 Sep 2009 at 9:22 pm 4.Bishop said …

    Snowflake c’mon the correlation is quite obvious. You claim a Christian could possibly kill because they are commanded by God. Equally, an atheist can kill because he doesn’t believe there is a God to answer to for such actions. Lenin? Mao?

    Atheism is a delusion. If you can believe the incomparable complexity of the universe from the nano to the macro came about with absolutely zero intelligence, you can only be classified as delusional. The possibility of such a feat is practically at zero on the x axis. Intelligence is behind this without question. Read the works of some older atheist who are now leaving the delusion.

  5. on 06 Sep 2009 at 5:19 am 5.a person said …

    I didn’t read your stuff, I’m just commenting on your website as a whole.

    Most questions like “Why doesn’t do xxx?” can be answered with “Because God is smarter than you.”.

    I tell you, if God came down from the heavens and explained to you why he does/doesn’t do things, you still wouldn’t understand. God isn’t like you — he has knowledge you don’t have; he knows things that are impossible for you to know.

    Some questions can be answered with “Because God loves you, therefore he gives you choice”. Think about it. If you love someone, you don’t force them to love you. To forcing someone to do something is not to love them. Also, if you loves someone, you don’t lock them inside a little box and feed them bread and water because you don’t want them to hurt themselves, or eat something they shouldn’t, etc. etc.

    On your site you have references from the Old Testament laws, which no longer apply. Short story:
    1. God gave man a choice, love me (or obey me), or do not love me, and die (this is because life comes from God, and would eat from a “Tree of Life” and somehow that would make him live; without eating from this tree he would die).
    2. God offers people a covenant, but they fail.
    3. God offers people a covenant, now people can communicate with God directly..
    4. Ignorant people create this awful website.

    Also, watch out for Catholics. I’m not quite sure what they are, but they’re most certainly not Christians. It’s probably a good idea to stay away from them.

    There a lot of crazy Christian-spinoff freak religions – pay no attention to them. They’re crazy, I tell you.

    It’s not possible to be a Christian and not believe in the bible. It makes as much sense a being an atheist and God. Christians are people who follow Christ, that is to say, what Christ says to do that is recorded in the bible.
    Most of the bible is just saying the same things over, over, and over again (such as love the Lord your God with all your heart).

    I’m not really someone that knows a lot about the God, the Bible, etc. but I hope that helps. If you read the Bible and actually pay attention to what is says (not just looking for things to ridicule), you can learn a lot.

    Bye

  6. on 07 Sep 2009 at 12:30 am 6.Snowflake said …

    Bishop, you are still talking about two different things. A command by God to kill is a motivation to kill. Believing there is no God to answer to is NOT motivation to kill. It might make one more willing to commit the act, if one believes there are no eternal repercussions, but it itself is not the motivation.

    Lenin and Mao did not kill because they didn’t believe in God – they killed because they were motivated by lust for power, or perhaps simply insanity. So, is your argument actually that evil men like Lenin or Mao may have paused before their slaughter if they had believed in God? That may be true, but you can’t claim their lack of belief was the actual drive for their deeds. Even if their lack of faith allowed them to commit horrendous acts with no worry of judgment, Christianity would not have prevented their acts either. One of the wonderful loopholes in Christianity is that it is not deed-based in the least. Salvation is simply based on belief. Forgiveness can be attained for any misdeed, no matter how vile.

    I want to reiterate that the acts committed by people who subscribe to a particular belief system (or don’t subscribe to them at all) bear no relevance on the TRUTH of that belief system. Christians participated in the Crusades, but that doesn’t mean Christianity is factually incorrect. Muslims have committed terrorist acts, but that doesn’t mean Islam is factually incorrect. Stalin killed millions of Soviets, but that doesn’t mean atheism is factually incorrect. The facts have to stand on their own, independent of the actions taken by their believers.

    So while I am actually somewhat inclined to agree with you – that the existence of the universe may require a supernatural creator – I cannot take that simple assumption and arrive at the belief that this creator made the heavens and earth in seven days, created two people who fell into sin thanks to a talking snake, flooded the earth and killed all but those on a boat, and later his son showed up and died and resurrected. Because there is no reason to believe any of that. We start with one FACT – existence exists, for lack of more poetic words. We can’t explain that naturally, so perhaps it had a metaphysical cause. That is all we know, and pretending to know the likes and dislikes and behaviors and attributes of God beyond that one simple fact is dishonest.

    Absolute atheism is dishonest too, by the way. Claiming to know with certainty that no deity or deities exist is a claim to omniscience, and no one possesses that. I have yet to encounter that type of person, at least on this site, but I suppose they might exist. I would not be able to agree with their position. But it is not dishonest to say that there is no evidence of a SPECIFIC god, or of Christ’s divinity, or Mohammed’s revelations, etc. In fact, in the face of ZERO evidence of supernatural involvement in our world, the ONLY honest position is “If God exists, we really don’t know anything about him.”

  7. on 07 Sep 2009 at 5:16 am 7.Jimpol said …

    This website is a fresh package on an old product. All the questions raised against religion and Christianity in particular are thousands of years old. The contemporary, straight-talk approach of the content is effective and engaging, more so than a scholarly, academic approach that most mainstream Christians largely ignore.

    I think if any Christian is bothered, or concerned, or even afraid of this website, all they need to do is look at history. They will see that indeed “nothing is new under the sun” and that the questions raised by whywontgodhealamputees.com will always go completely unanswered. If this worries, anyone, then it shouldn’t. Nobody can prove God exists anymore than one can prove that He doesn’t. Simple enough isn’t it?

    I think that if Christians can accept that people like those at whywontgodhealamputees.com are no real threat, that they are entitled to present the facts of life and science as they see it, and that it is a tribute to human freewill that have determined their own truth, then they can confidently continue in their faith and let others be who they choose to be.

    I love atheists. They show me clearly over and over again what existence without God would be like. This helps me greatly.

  8. on 08 Sep 2009 at 12:10 pm 8.Bishop said …

    “is your argument actually that evil men like Lenin or Mao may have paused before their slaughter if they had believed in God?”

    Snowflake you attempt to divide the pshyche of an individual and happhazardly attempt place the actions of the individual on a portion of that psyche.

    Example. The Muslim terrorist kills because Allah calls him to do so. Then why don’t all Muslims kill? Undoubtedly there is another combination of motives within the individual that works with the call from Allah. Perhaps hate? power?

    Lenin and Mao were atheist and their lack of belief in one who would hold them accountable was an important part of their make up. Like it or not, atheism in this area has huge weakness that can empower an evil man to carry out horrific acts assuming he will never be held accountable.

    After all, the killing of a human life is no different than hooking a a nice size halibut in the oceans. Not such a big deal for the atheist mindset.

  9. on 09 Sep 2009 at 7:03 am 9.lovethisdiscussion said …

    I have no arguments for what I have experienced to be true. Earlier today, I felt happy. Now, call me delusional if you would like to, but I know what I experienced – I was happy. I can neither prove that it is true or false, but I believe it – why? Because I experienced it.

    Here’s what else I have experienced, and therefore do not need to prove. When I was around 19 (and attending a university), I read the Bible from beginning to end, in search of ammunition which I could use AGAINST Christians. I wanted to find the holes, the flaws. I hated Christians and wanted to PROVE to them that they were dead wrong. But something amazing happened. As I read the entire Bible (not just one or two verses taken out of context like in some of these videos), my life course changed. I wasn’t searching for that; not in the least – I was quite content after 19 years of a self-centered, self-serving life. But the power of the Bible is not something that I can deny – reading it changed my life. FACT. I wasn’t repulsed by the Bible, I was transformed by it. And that’s not something any person, no matter how intelligent, can deny. I’m not going around killing homosexuals or people that work on the sabbath…come on – the Bible doesn’t really say to do that – read the verses cited in that video, but read them in context!

    Anyway, I digress. The Bible transformed my life – nobody can deny that. I’m now a pastor. I love the God that was revealed to me through the Bible.

    And think about it – even the author of this website is affected DEEPLY by the power of the Bible. What a powerful book!

    Perhaps I’m delusional, but my beliefs are based on experience and reason. Perhaps my experiences are coincidence and my reasoning is wrong, but I’m pretty sure that I really was happy earlier today. And I’m pretty sure that the Bible transformed my life and made me a better member of society, less self-centered and more concerned about the wellfare of my human man, more willing to give to the needs of other. I have adopted a child who was in a Siberian orphanage…I’ve spent two weeks building an orphanage in Romania…I’ve given a huge percent of my income to help people around our city, our nation, our world. And I believe that all the credit for this belongs to the power of the Bible…not because of some fancy arguments, but because that IS my undeniable life experience.

    Now, about some of the videos I’ve seen on this website:

    #1 – the videos about prayer.

    Of course prayer doesn’t work if you’re looking for it to be some kind of magic pill – that’s not the purpose of it. If my conversations with my wife were simply just to request things, then I would come to the same conclusion as the author of the videos on this website – it doesn’t work. :) Simply to request things of the God of the universe is not the purpose of prayer – it doesn’t even make sense to a logical person to approach conversations with the CREATOR of the UNIVERSE as simply a pipeline of personal fulfillment. HELLO – talk about not thinking thoroughly about something.

    Really – you (an insignificant vapor of a being, just like me) have the ability to be heard by the eternal creator of time, space, the universe, etc., and you think the purpose of prayer is to make requests? Come on…think of it like this – if you could spend 20 minutes with your hero, would you really spend the entire time making requests? I don’t think so. You might not make any personal requests at all during those 20 minutes.

    Let’s really spend some time THINKING about prayer and what perhaps might be the power that it holds. I’ll tell you this – the power of prayer is not that you get to make a request list – that’s just a dumb premise to start with, and you’re right – if that’s your premise and purpose, then you might as well just pray to a milk jug.

    #2 – “Ten Questions that every thinking Christian must answer.”

    There is another possible answer to those 10 questions that every thinking Christian must ask. The author says that if you consider the solution – “God is imaginary” – then the 10 questions are easy to answer…and that’s true – BUT then there are 100 other questions that become impossible to answer. Perhaps if we consider another solution – “Human beings are not the center of the universe – God is.” – perhaps that would help you to answer the 10 questions, and 100 others as well. Try it and see.

    #3 – “God’s purpose”

    Rick Warren never claims to write with the authority of God, so to hold up Rick’s words with such scrutiny is just mean-spirited and desperate.

    Perhaps God’s purpose is different than what Rick has asserted. Perhaps God’s purpose is to demonstrate his own surpassing greatness…this will take some serious critical thinking to wrap your mind around – don’t hurt yourself. :)

    IN CONCLUSION…

    Whatever you think and do – God will use it for HIS good. Look at the influence this website has had on my faith – it has renewed my fire, it has caused me to come alive in my faith as I really and truly THINK about and QUESTION what I know to be true. Therefore, this website has helped me (and probably others as well) to enter into a deeper love and devotion to God. In short (I don’t think I would have understood this 10 years ago, but here goes…) God has brought Himself glory through this website. How about that? When I think about that fact, I realize just how AMAZING God truly is!

    ***All views contained in this posting are solely the author’s. They are not intended be evaluated equally with the words or Rick Warren or the Bible. :)

  10. on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:12 am 10.lovethisdiscussion said …

    Twazi..

    In your comment above, you stated:

    “Let’s hope they don’t get frightened and put the ‘good book’ down and rely on their financially worried priests, pastors and the Pope. These religious demigods are beginning to worry about where their share of the collection money has
    gone.”

    Twazi, I’m responding just in case you’re curious about a pastor’s perspective:

    First of all, I’m not worried “about where [our] share of the collection money has gone.” Giving in our church has actually gone up this past year. Meanwhile, my family has decided, as an expression of our faith, to give 25% of our income (which has not increased in two years) to give an anonymous gift to the children of our church. This puts us below the poverty level, but we are not, as you’ve suggested, “financially worried”. By the way, in case you’re wondering, we have not told anybody in our congregation that WE are the ones doing this.

    Our faith is not in the collection money or the congregation – our faith is in God.

    From a personal point of view, I don’t care if everybody at my church stops tithing. Then I might go back to teaching in the public schools, where I had tenure, 3 months off each year, a lot more free time, and no pressure from people who expect pastors to be perfect or think we’re idiots.

    I do care, however, about what’s going on inside the heart of somebody as it relates to giving and tithing. Tithing/giving/offering should have nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the giver’s relationship with God.

    The Bible tells us to question what we hear and hold it up against what the Bible really says. I often point out to my congregation that this includes anything they hear me say. I’m pretty sure there are many other pastors, like me, who actually encourage people to rely on God, not the pastor.

    I’d like to make a suggestion, Twazi – resist the urge to paint pastors with a broad stroke.

    Instead, Twazi, perhaps we could have an intelligent dialogue about the experiences that have lead you to the belief that you expressed regarding pastors. I am sorry if you were hurt in any way by somebody in authority within a church. If you’ve been rejected, abused, degraded, or whatever… I really am saddened. Would you let me know what thoughts/experiences your judgement is based on? I am curious.

  11. on 10 Sep 2009 at 2:01 pm 11.Snowflake said …

    Bishop, I agree with you that it is the total psyche that allows action on the part of the owner. My argument is that atheism alone is not enough of that psyche to cause one to commit murder. Your argument seems to be that it is. Atheism is not a catalyst to commit immoral acts. And normally religious belief isn’t either. However, the difference is that religion CAN be. It certainly is a combination of motives that cause someone to kill, and religion can be one of them. Atheism may be allow one not to pause at the question of accountability before going through with an unethical deed, but atheism is not the MOTIVE behind that deed. It can’t be. I don’t believe in leprechauns, but that doesn’t give me the urge to steal.

    Now, I realize your point is that religion provides the possibility of accountability, which may STOP those who are pondering doing something evil or immoral. But my question would be, does that make it justifiable to hold a belief, even if it isn’t true?

    Look at the story of Noah’s Ark. God killed almost everything and everybody because the world was such a wicked place. Many people realize that this story is not literally true – even a number of Christians take it as allegory. The point of the story is pretty obvious – mankind should never slip into such wickedness again, or risk God’s wrath. We tell children this story. Perhaps it helps them be good. So, does it matter if the story is TRUE or not?

    If Stalin thought he would have to stand before God and be judged for his actions, would he not have carried them out? That is possible. Not if he was a Christian, of course. Salvation in Christianity isn’t based on morality or deeds, only belief. Proper behavior is in no way a requirement. But let’s say he believed in karma – that the way he led his life would influence what he would be reincarnated as. Maybe that would have stopped him. So, does it matter if reincarnation is TRUE or not?

    You argue that the weakness of atheism is the lack of accountability. I might argue that the weakness of specific religious beliefs is that they have no factual basis.

    Obviously not all of the world’s religions can be true, because they contradict each other in various ways. But for the most part they do all contain guides to moral behavior. Let’s say one religion has it right, and contains the truth about the supernatural. If I am an adherent to one of the incorrect religions, but the rules and accountability in it frighten me away from immoral acts, then is it justified? Is it better that I believe in a lie?

  12. on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:47 pm 12.Bishop said …

    Snowflake

    You speak of other religions and ask if they are true. Is it proper for atheist to teach children there is no God even though it is a lie just because to the feeble human mind it is “rationale”? You see it is no different.

    Do we tell the child this life is all you get, when you die it is all over? How do you know? What is the point? How do we know atheism is right, what about other forms like agnosticism or Buddhism? All that exist came about through random chance? There is where you lose your rationality in atheism.

    Atheism is a a exceptional catalyst for murder under the right circumstances. From the atheist perspective, it is no different than squashing a fly. All life is equal right?

    At least Christianity, for one, views human being as above other forms of life which gives human life a special dignity. And actually, christianity says no to murder which provides a little more than motivation. In the atheist moral code, anything goes based on the individuals prerogative.

  13. on 11 Sep 2009 at 9:28 pm 13.Denis Loubet said …

    Where to start…

    Atheism doesn’t teach anything, it is a lack of belief in gods.

    (Are you claiming to have something other than a feeble human mind?)

    As far as we humans can tell, when you die, it’s over. That’s where all the evidence points. So yeah, we should tell kids that as far as we know, this is it.

    Yes, as far as we humans know, the universe is a product of random chance. The items in the universe appear to be the products of a chain of cause and effect.

    To propose another unexplainable item — a god — as an explanation for the unexplainable universe gets you nowhere.

    Moustaches are an exceptional catalyst for murder under the right circumstances. What is your point?

    Atheism does not comment on what life equals. It does not presume to tell you what you should do. It is the lack of belief in gods. That’s all.

    “Special Kind of Dignity” pronounced as “Arrogant Vanity”, right? Are you claiming that the Jesus character wasn’t murdered, or that salvation is not a good thing? Because according to the story, you can’t have one without the other. It certainly sounds like a pro-murder message. According to the bible, the only people with a vested interest in making sure the Jesus character is crucified are Christians. I’m not even commenting on the atrocities committed in the OT.

    Atheism contains no moral code. It does not tell you how you should behave. Neither does not collecting stamps, or not playing baseball. It’s merely a label that distinguishes people that don’t believe in gods from people who do believe in gods. If you want a moral code, you need to get it elsewhere.

    Unless you have an answer to the Euthyphro dilemma, your moral code ain’t from a god.

  14. on 15 Sep 2009 at 1:47 am 14.Snowflake said …

    The proper thing to tell children is the truth: we don’t know. We don’t know if God exists. We don’t know that God DOESN’T exist. We might cite evidence here and there that supports or works against particular belief systems, or definitions of God, but we don’t really know, do we?

    So, no, we shouldn’t teach our children that atheism is right. We should teach that it is a point of view – as are other beliefs, and they deserve study before a decision is made by the individual.

    With no eternal accountability, is an atheist more likely to murder? I suppose it’s not impossible, but if an atheist truly believes this life is our life complete, with nothing to follow, then doesn’t it take on even more importance? There is a reason that the Golden Rule dominates not just Christianity, but other belief systems and even holds importance for non-believers. Treating others in a manner you wish to be treated is good for humanity’s survival, quite simply. It’s good for co-existing with other people in a society, and a society brings many benefits and a collective progress.

    Returning to my earlier point: I quote you as saying the following:

    “At least Christianity, for one, views human being as above other forms of life which gives human life a special dignity. And actually, christianity says no to murder which provides a little more than motivation.”

    Yes, Christianity does place special importance on humans. In fact, it describes us as being made in a divine image. Once again, does it matter if it is TRUE? Your argument so far has been that the universe requires a creator. I concur at least to the point that this is altogether possible. What does this have to do with Christianity?

    Christianity says no to murder, as to other religions, and secular laws, and the morality of the majority of atheists. How is this special to Christianity? Is the moral code “do not murder” in any way original or confined to Christianity?

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