Feed on Posts or Comments 16 September 2014

Christianity Jim on 24 Jun 2009 01:36 am

Helping you understand

Hello, I saw your video. I make it my goal to help you. So I have signed up and here we go. You said:

You ask at 1:00, “Why doesn’t god supply every need that we have on this earth?” That is a very good question. Very good indeed. Is that not what your god will do in heaven, according to your mythology? In heaven, everything is perfect. Every need is supplied. So why not here on earth? Do you believe your god WANTS people to suffer? What sort of god is that? Why would you worship him?

Your god also says:

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And which of you are anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.” Matthew 6:25-31

If your heavenly Father knows that you need them, what has gone wrong? That does not work for starving children. How do you explain this?

You say at 1:50 “because of the fall of man in the garden of eden”. Do you believe that? You believe that your all-knowing god created sinful beings, and then punished them for creating them that way? Again, why worship this beast?

But really that is not what the video asks. It asks, “Why won’t god heal amputees?” which is saying, “why does your god answer prayers for some, but ignore prayers for others?” At 2:40 you say, “I can’t say exactly why some people get prayers answered and others don’t. I can definitely say that god does answer prayer. It absolutely does happen.” If you think, you will see. The prayers that do not get answered (amputated limbs, starving children) are all prayers that cannot be answered by coincidence. This page will help you to see:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

Every “answered prayer” is a coincidence. When you see that, you will understand many things.

Write back your response in the comments please, and I will try to say more to help you.

96 Responses to “Helping you understand”

  1. on 24 Jun 2009 at 10:59 am 1.Nice try said …

    Jim, What you are trying to do makes sense to a thinking person, but (my prediction) you will get nowhere. A person this delusional cannot hear what you are saying. He can’t hear a thing. But I will pull up my chair and a box of popcorn to watch.

  2. on 24 Jun 2009 at 1:41 pm 2.faithquestions said …

    I’m going to make videos in response to your other pathetic videos on youtube which should answer the first point you brought up.

    and as far as your Matthew 6 passage, way to not read in context at all, and leave out the most important verse of that passage you read. “But seek first His kingdom, and all these things will be added unto you.” The message of the passage is to not be concerned so much with food as with running wholeheartedly toward God. The theme is in regards to fasting, if you knew how to read in context. So why am i even bothering to reply to this nonsense? I guess because i just want to show that not every Christian can’t defend the Bible against attacks from an uneducated but somehow really arrogant person like you.

    you also seem to think that God is obligated to answer every prayer the way we want Him to…..thats not prayer. It’s ordering God around. And you can’t simply put aside all the people that say God does answer prayer because YOU think he should heal amputees. It’s an extremely weak argument to use.

    And as far as the response from “nice try”: just because you say I’m delusional, doesn’t make it true. It may be good for you to repeat it about anyone who believes in the Bible (millions and millions of people) so that you feel that a good percentage of the world is just simply insane….lol….but it doesn’t make you right, and i’ll show through my response to this guys other videos that he is 100% wrong about the Bible he doesn’t bother to read in context….

  3. on 24 Jun 2009 at 3:10 pm 3.A said …

    > you also seem to think that God is obligated
    > to answer every prayer the way we want Him to

    It’s not what he thinks, it is what God promises:

    “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” [Matthew 21:21]

    “If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” [John 14:14]

    “Ask, and it will be given you.” [Matthew 7:7]

    “Nothing will be impossible to you.” [Matthew 17:20]

    “Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” [Mark 11:24]

    You also ignored what he said:

    But really that is not what the video asks. It asks, “Why won’t god heal amputees?” which is saying, “why does your god answer prayers for some, but ignore prayers for others?” At 2:40 you say, “I can’t say exactly why some people get prayers answered and others don’t. I can definitely say that god does answer prayer. It absolutely does happen.” If you think, you will see. The prayers that do not get answered (amputated limbs, starving children) are all prayers that cannot be answered by coincidence. This page will help you to see:

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

  4. on 24 Jun 2009 at 7:38 pm 4.faithquestions said …

    again, you’re reading those verses entirely out of context, just like the guy that made the video i responded to. and honestly i’ve spent too much time today going back to the context of a passage and explaining it to people that dont take the time to learn about it on their own. read it, study it, give me the CONTEXT of the passage then make an argument……

    and i didnt respond to that section because its an absurd statement. To make that statement is to assume that you know the details of EVERY prayer that has been prayed and answered past present and future.

    It also assumes that just because prayers arent asnwered in the way or in the timing we think they should be, they become proof that God doesn’t answer prayer. God has purposes for our life and for the situations we are in. I know a man on youtube with no legs, born with a medical condition that has witnessed his story of living life to the fullest despite his handicap that has led thousands to Christ. Don’t assume you understand the plans God has for peoples lives just because you don’t understand it in 5 seconds.

    And i’m sure thats an answer you roll your eyes or shrug your shoulders at, but just think of the nature of God. If we understood the ins and outs of everything that He did…..He wouldn’t be God. He doesn’t have to reveal everything to us. He never said He did….

  5. on 24 Jun 2009 at 8:01 pm 5.Gregori said …

    The “God works in mysterious ways.” excuse is without a doubt the biggest cop-out ever.

    What is with this “context” argument? It’s explicity set out about how slavery is endorsed in the bible.

  6. on 24 Jun 2009 at 9:08 pm 6.faithquestions said …

    “God works in mysterious ways” isnt’ what i was saying…God does work in ways we don’t understand though….and we shouldnt understand….its only a cop out because you dont like the answer, not because it actually is.

    the context argument is what people use who know how to read…..slavery, self mutilation, cannibalistic rituals, and all other stupid arguments against the Bible come from a lack of reading the whole passage or understanding the original language the Bible was written in…try that and then give me an actual reason why the Bible promotes slavery….i already know all the verses and know what they mean by the way, but study up on it for yourself, if you care to take the time at all.

  7. on 24 Jun 2009 at 11:38 pm 7.Anon said …

    faithquestions, I want to make sure I understand what you believe:

    1) You believe that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect.

    1) You believe that God created Adam.

    2) You beleive that God programmed Adam’s brain with language and all his knowledge.

    3) Since God is all-knowing and perfect, God created Adam perfectly, and God knew exactly what would happen after he created Adam.

    4) But then when Adam behaved exactly as God created Adam to behave, God got mad at Adam. God now punishes everything in his creation for all generations with death, disease, starvation, suffering.

    That is what you believe?

  8. on 24 Jun 2009 at 11:47 pm 8.Chip E said …

    Its a lot like the statement “We don’t how or who started the Big bang. It just did probably by spontaneous generation! aka abiogeneisis.

    We don’t know how life formed from non-life, it just did!

    We don’t know how intelligence & information developed from chaos it just did.

    We don’t know how or why the platypus evolved but it just did.

  9. on 24 Jun 2009 at 11:48 pm 9.A said …

    >all other stupid arguments against the Bible come
    >from a lack of reading the whole passage or
    >understanding the original language the Bible was
    >written in…try that and then give me an actual >reason why the Bible promotes slavery

    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:

    Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

  10. on 25 Jun 2009 at 2:51 am 10.faithquestions said …

    i’ll respond to “is that what you believe” first.

    Yes to all. But the last question needs an explanation. God created all of us desiring that we would follow Him, of our own free will. He made us with the choice to love Him, not with the obligation. Giving us such a choice gave us the option to not love Him, and to not obey Him. We chose this on our own, and it’s not God’s fault…

  11. on 25 Jun 2009 at 3:01 am 11.faithquestions said …

    the “slave” verse in exodus 21 again goes back to my point that you need to understand the original language and dont rely 100% on the new translations we have now. do you really think i would make such a claim about the Bible not endorsing slavery unless i first studied the material myself? i hope not. the word “ebed” is really translated into servant more than slave. look it up on your own….again please study the original language before making such a ridiculous claim. You think The Bible endorses slavery…..remember that little story about pharoah? and enslaving the entire race of Israelites? that was considered pretty flipping evil……
    “9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.” Colossians 3….

  12. on 25 Jun 2009 at 4:52 am 12.anony said …

    Leviticus 25:44-46

    44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.

    45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property.

    46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

    Please explain how the last verse there is different than what the pharoah did with the israelites, and how one is more moral than the other without resorting to “because god said so”.

  13. on 25 Jun 2009 at 7:38 am 13.Jim said …

    Whether you translate it as “slave” or “servant” or “ebed”, it matters not. When you “buy” another human and control whether he or she can go out “free” or not, what do you have? You have a slave of course. When you can separate man from his wife and children and coerce him to declare ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’, so that “he shall serve him for life”, you have a slave.

    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

    If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

    “Slave” or “servant” or “ebed” matters not. When one person can beat another person because he or she is your “property”, you have a slave.

    Why would you worship your god who permits one person to beat another person? And so severely that the other may be down a day or two? Appalling. Why worship this beast?

  14. on 25 Jun 2009 at 9:00 am 14."I AM" said …

    Anony, If you would care to take a look at Exodus 22:21, “Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.” The Egyptians forced them into slavery and the Israelites did not. The last verse protect those who were from Israel, but with different blood. Where it says do not treat your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Slaves were beat on by the head of the household no different of a father who would beat on his kids. However, Hebrews who were slaves were property of someone for six years, unless you were a Israelite with different blood..

  15. on 25 Jun 2009 at 9:30 am 15.Anon said …

    10. faithquestions:

    You are saying that your all-knowing, perfect God, who knew exactly what would happen, created mankind exactly the way he wanted to, but “it’s not God’s fault”?

    And you believe that a baby, born (by definition) completely innocent today, must suffer and starve to death because of something a person named Adam did 6,000 years ago?

    Have you even thought about what you are saying? You sound insane.

  16. on 25 Jun 2009 at 1:24 pm 16.Chip E said …

    Faithquestions,

    You are not communicating to people who wish to understand, you are speaking to those who desire to condemn, belittle and ridicule. Be careful with whom you argue and beware of where you cast your pearls. Sometimes, as Paul, it is better to dust off the sandals and move on.

  17. on 25 Jun 2009 at 1:47 pm 17.anony said …

    “I AM”, I did not ask about how slaves were beat. I asked how you can consider it moral for the hebrews to own slaves in the first place.

    I just showed you that your bible condones them having slaves for life, inheriting the offspring of their slaves like property, and being allowed to beat the slaves when they want without fear of penalty.

    I would like to know how you can consider this moral in ANY society. Would you think it moral if the israelites began to take palestinian slaves today? It would be in accordance with what your bible god tells them to do. So would it be moral?

  18. on 25 Jun 2009 at 3:10 pm 18.Anon said …

    >You are not communicating to people who wish to understand

    It is not that people do not wish to understand. It is that the things he says sound insane. Example: he claims the Bible does not endorse slavery, yet everyone can clearly see that it does.

  19. on 25 Jun 2009 at 5:39 pm 19.Xenon said …

    Did we not own slaves here in the US less than two hundred years ago? Was it not considered lawful? Yes it was and our founding fathers did not condemn it. At times, slavery has been considered moral and legal. Besides, as an atheist who are you to decide what is moral and ethical for someone else?

  20. on 25 Jun 2009 at 5:57 pm 20.anony said …

    Wow, way to dodge the question, Xenon. I would expect more of you. I will answer the questions you pose when you answer mine. If you don’t answer my question in your next response then I will consider it a concession of my point.

  21. on 25 Jun 2009 at 6:57 pm 21.JJ said …

    faithquestions,

    Why don’t you admit that your “god” openly endorses slavery in the bible?

    Then why don’t you admit that this is disgusting?

    Then why don’t you admit that your “god” is a monster and reject him?

    Why don’t all Christians do this?

    JJ

  22. on 25 Jun 2009 at 8:18 pm 22.Jack said …

    This video starts by using a trick of argumentation. Here’s how it works:

    “Senator, did you have an affair outside your marriage?”

    “Well, that’s a good question, thank you. The ~real~ question is, why would ~anyone~ ever have sex outside of a marriage? And I think you’ll find that the answer would surprise you. You see… blah blah blah….”

    When there’s a question you don’t want to answer, you change the question into something else, then answer the something else. And that’s what’s happened here. The original question for Christians was, “Why won’t God heal amputees?” There are plenty of people who claim that God cured their cancer or some other condition. But God is supposed to be all-powerful, able to heal ~anything~ he chooses to heal. So, why does He never cure amputees?

    What the video does is to take that and say, “Why won’t God cure ~all~ amputees….” and then takes that even further, saying, “Well, then what would be the next thing that people demanded as proof of God.”

    So, please answer the original question.

  23. on 25 Jun 2009 at 8:45 pm 23.Severin said …

    What an impudence to look for “questions behind questions”!

    If someone poses simple questions about god’s not healing amputees, or about hungry children, who, the hell, has right to “interpret” them and twist them to another set of questions?
    Weren’t those questions posed directly and clearly, according to logic and grammar?

    They do not need deep investigations about “what was behind”, they need straight answers.

    Of course, when you have no straight answers, you go to “interpretations”, and pull the attention of an naive (possibly also less educated) reader/listener from the point, using shallow “philosophy”, in which YOU are placing yourself to a role of interpreter of god’s words, god’s will, god’s intentions, god’s thouhts, and YOU become the interpreter of the whole Bible.
    To additionally discredit such questions, you, on the first place, call them “not honest”, preparing the reader/listener psychologicallly that such questions are “dirty”, pulling his mind from the real problem.
    Naive and less educated reader/listener will not notice that he was misslead to answers he did not even aked for!

    An “interpreter” of god’s words/will/ intentions/thoughts, uses then in his argumentation the picture of earth orbiting the sun (wow! how wonderful is the god’s creation!), forgetting the fact that only 150 – 200 years ago other “interpreters” of god’s words/thoughts (etc)KILLED (burned!) people who dared to say that earth is orbiting the sun!!!

    Disgusting!

  24. on 26 Jun 2009 at 1:00 pm 24.Severin said …

    “Besides, as an atheist who are you to decide what is moral and ethical for someone else?”

    Although this was not reply to my comment, I can say: atheists decide what is NOT moral and ethical for anyone, from the Bible and the Church (any Church!):
    - Slavory
    - Children masacring
    - Misogyny
    - Lies
    - False promisses
    - Taking money for nothing
    - Etc

    What is moral and ethical, some atheists find in their mind, some not, just as the believers do (probably depending on genes, education, influence of family in childhood, etc).

    If lack of other guides, atheists can esyly decide what is moral and ethical doing oposite of what is written in the Bible

  25. on 26 Jun 2009 at 3:53 pm 25.Chip E said …

    Something like this?

    Thou shall steal.
    Thou shall kill.
    Thou shall hate your neighbor.
    Thou shall covet.

    Nice guidelines there and they do reflect accurately. As I would suspect, each atheist makes up there own morals. That is why we had guys like Mao & Stalin. They made up there own moral standards.

  26. on 26 Jun 2009 at 6:03 pm 26.Xenon said …

    LOL, Anon you are such a child! Oooh, if I don’t respond to your question as you specify then I have conceded. What are you approximately 10 years old? That’s the kind of statement I deduce would originate from a monkey banging on the keyboard.

    You deal with slavery as you like but at least educate yourself before continuing to humiliate yourself any more. I mean really you come across as a supercilious twit. You pick out some random verse and don’t even endeavor to find out what it might denote from a divergent view. Is it possible exodus is a book of history and ancient Hebrew cultural practices? Just maybe, this was a practice not embraced by their God which was often the case with the Hebrews.

    You haven’t caught on so let me spell it out. The Hebrew exodus is not an issue for me and to continue that slavery in the book of Exodus is not that important to me. I do recognize the structures of morality vary with time & cultures. I also recognize that as an atheist judging an action as moral or immoral is an exercise in hypocrisy. Everyone chooses their own morality Right?

    Last point, I am not a Christian. I know I know, I don’t attack them constantly so I must be one. Yes, I follow the (sigh) logic you try to employ. What confuses me about guys like you is if you TRULY believe Christians are erroneous and God doesn’t exist why do you bicker so passionately? I think you are attempting to veil your own insecurity on the issue. Individuals who discern an entity doesn’t exist (i.e. Santa Claus) do not spend so much time and energy arguing against that entity.

  27. on 26 Jun 2009 at 9:42 pm 27."I AM" said …

    Anony, that part of my comment was not for you. Sorry, I forgot to highlight the statement that I was referring to. However, Society has allowed slavery to occur since the time of early Egypt. Slavery diversifies in every culture. Depending of which culture, slavery takes shape according to form of government in power.

    Going back to your “fear of penalty”, there was plenty of penalties that affected the owner. Also, there were rights that protected slaves.

  28. on 26 Jun 2009 at 9:49 pm 28."I AM" said …

    “forgetting the fact that only 150 – 200 years ago other “interpreters” of god’s words/thoughts (etc)KILLED (burned!) people who dared to say that earth is orbiting the sun!!!”

    Galileo was never KILLED, a better wordis “persecuted”

  29. on 26 Jun 2009 at 11:42 pm 29.Gregori said …

    Is that really better?

    @Xenu: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, guess what? You got a duck. Wave to Jesus!

  30. on 26 Jun 2009 at 11:43 pm 30.Gregori said …

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/

    Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal hits another strike with what was the point to Jesus’s death!

  31. on 26 Jun 2009 at 11:45 pm 31.anony said …

    Thank you for replying “I AM”. Am I understanding you correctly when I say that you believe that as long as a government in power recognizes slavery as legitimate then it is moral?

    If this is not true, which I hope it isn’t, then by what grounds do you think it moral for the israelites to take slaves in the first place?

    To make sure this is clear, I am not talking about the indentured servants, I’m talking about the ones taken unwillingly from the surrounding nations or born into slavery as outlined in Leviticus 25:44-46.

  32. on 27 Jun 2009 at 4:53 am 32."I AM" said …

    “you believe that as long as a government in power recognizes slavery as legitimate then it is moral?”

    Yes.

    “then by what grounds do you think it moral for the israelites to take slaves in the first place?”

    It would depend on the individual character and his/her decision to accept slavery within their household. I see no problem with taking in a foreign slave, as long as you keep the regulations(like the following:“Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.”Exodus 22:21).

  33. on 27 Jun 2009 at 5:57 am 33.anony said …

    “I AM”, Jesus taught to do unto others as you would have them do unto you (the Golden Rule). Although he was not the first to come up with this idea he did endorse it. Do you agree with this teaching and if you do, how do you think slavery fits with that notion?

  34. on 27 Jun 2009 at 9:43 pm 34.Chip E said …

    The Bible doesn’t teach the supposed golden rule. It is no where in the Bible. The Bible teaches to love your neighbor as yourself regardless of what your neighbor does. The same for an enemy.

  35. on 28 Jun 2009 at 1:26 am 35.Easter Eagle said …

    Heard most of your video and speed read the other comments. My first question: Why go out of the way to condemn the Bible (yet the most sold book in the world today)? Why is your anger, towards this particular book? How is it helping you in life, to condemn this book?

    It is over 20 years since I first read the Bible.(I do not come from a Christian background.) I know that the Bible is a love story from God to man. I know that the Bible , from the Old Testament to the New, talks about Jesus Christ. I know that God hides His message in the Bible from those who consider themselves wise and prudent, but reveals it to those who are simple enough to want to learn (Matthew 11:25). I know that even today, the answer to an individual’s life problems, can be found in knowing the Person of Jesus Christ.

    A simple prayer to Him, asking all questions that puzzle us, will do. He always answers, in time. Asking for forgiveness, for wrongs done consciouslly or unconsciouslly will help. So will a prayer, telling Him, we will follow Him, if He shows us He is right.

    I acknowledge that many Christians today, actually do not know the Person, they think they are praying to. For anyone truly wanting to know answers, I recommend, you hear the messages (over a 1,000 of them) of Brother William Branham, a prophet of the 20th century, who has been rejected (as all true prophets of God) by churches. His messages can be found (also) on website:nathan.co.za

    God bless you all! I haven’t created a website yet. If I do, I hope I may be able to share it with you. (I am not very experienced in internet usage and may not be able to find your website again!) God help you all! Love from Easter E

  36. on 28 Jun 2009 at 3:35 am 36.Anonymous said …

    “Do you agree with this teaching and if you do, how do you think slavery fits with that notion?”

    First, you are talking about Israelites (which are mainly Jews). Second, the dating period was more or less 1700 years apart and they are in different Testaments. Let’s just say that somehow this occurred, Hebrew slaves were not forced into slavery. According to the Bible, Slaves are not supposed to be beat. In my perspective, slaves were treated like if they were indentured servants. Now, If purchasing slaves is permitted and if theres no mistreatment then it’s fine with me and it all correlates.

    Chip E, Jesus did recommend this rule to His followers in Mathew 7:12.

  37. on 28 Jun 2009 at 5:01 am 37.RRV said …

    Wow, what a colossal waste of time and useless expenditure of the “little grey cells.”

    Let me try to make this as simple as possible: a God you can comprehend, that makes sense to you, is no God at all, anymore than all the other things made and understood by humans qualify as gods. But a God who created you and loves you can be experienced through a personal relationship. Until you have entered into such a relationship, you have no basis for making a determination as to the existence or non-existence of God. Nor do you have any valid scale from which to evaluate God’s actions.

    Bottom line: it’s not what you believe; it’s not who you are as a person; it’s only who you know that matters!

  38. on 28 Jun 2009 at 2:18 pm 38.RRV said …

    Chapter One

    As with most denouncers of God, you base your whole introduction on one critical point: continuing to live on this Earth is better than death.

    What if that is not true?

    I know…those who think there is anything else are just fools who have fallen for a “pie in the sky” theology that is horribly cruel because it can’t be proven…it requires faith and any idiot can be tricked into believing a lie if it is presented glibly enough.

    What if you are that idiot?

    You CANNOT answer the question of God’s existence (or non-existence) until you have experience a personal relationship with the one you claim is imaginary. And that can only be done with faith.

    Now, don’t give me that “I don’t believe in faith; I only believe in things that can be proven” crap. In order to not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving God you have to have way more faith than one who does believe. Or have you not noticed?

  39. on 28 Jun 2009 at 6:11 pm 39.Severin said …

    To “I AM”:

    Giordano Bruno, born Filippo Bruno (1548 – February 17, 1600), was an Italian philosopher best-known as a proponent of heliocentrism and the infinity of the universe (Wikipedia).

    So, Galileo was not burnt by Christian Church, but poor Giordano Bruno was! Check it if you do not believe! And he was burnt exactly because of his beliefs!

    Many thousands of people were burnt alive just because they thought/said/wrote something that was against the actual dogma of the church, which was the only interpreter of Bible and god’s words.

    Some time after that, a proponent of Christianity uses the picture of earth orbiting the sun, as illustration of god’s creation – what to say, but disgusting! Once you get burned because you think/say/write earth is orbiting the sun, and a some time later, the executors themselves use this very picture of earth orbiting the sun as to glory the god’s creations!
    Phooey!
    I can only spit on such a(bloody and lethal)hypocrisy!

    Galileo was – what? – persecuted? What a word for making him deny his scientific work under the threat he will be burned!

  40. on 28 Jun 2009 at 6:26 pm 40.Severin said …

    To Chip E:

    I would prefer something like this:

    In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.

    A few “commandments” which sound “fair enough” can not pull the Bible out of mud!

  41. on 28 Jun 2009 at 7:19 pm 41.Severin said …

    “That is why we had guys like Mao & Stalin. They made up there own moral standards.”

    I would rather start with tenths of popes which ordered torturing and killing (burning) of thousands of “heretics”, whose “heresies” were consisting of nothing but saying what they thought.

    I would then continue with hundreds of kings and emperors who killed their own children and wives, and slaughtered their citizens.

    I would give examples of Bible kings and/or leaders who slaughtered children an women guided by direct god’s orders.

    Were they atheists?

    As there were very few atheists in the history of human race, how could they be responsible for all the evil deeds during the history?

    Mao and Stalin came about 2000 years to late to be blamed for slavery, and all other thousands of evil deeds done by Christians in name of god.

  42. on 28 Jun 2009 at 7:37 pm 42."I AM" said …

    Severin, Bruno was executed not only for belief. Bruno first became a priest at the age of 24, my dear brother. His fall began when he became a student to Galileo. Bruno was convicted of many crimes in Venice and persecuted in Rome. The convictions towards him are blasphemy in many accounts, like denying the virginity of Mary, transmigration of the human soul into brutes,”participating in magic”, having opinions against Christ, and the Trinity. Bruno was burned because he denied and gave his opinion against on the religion, he would have just done some time if he would have not spoke blasphemies.

  43. on 28 Jun 2009 at 7:44 pm 43.Chip E said …

    Yes, Isaiah 13 is a prophecy against Babylon. They were warned which is a good thing. God has a side of judgment no doubt. Mao, & Stain just killed out of pure hate and spite.

    At times, those in the Bible did violate their moral standard and God issued judgment. Mao & Stalin violated no standard since they did not have one outside their own opinion.

  44. on 28 Jun 2009 at 7:51 pm 44.Severin said …

    “you believe that as long as a government in power recognizes slavery as legitimate then it is moral?”

    “Yes.”

    So you are happy you weren’t a German in Germany 1935 – 1945.

    There was legally recognized by actual government in power, AND ORDERED BY LAW, to kill all Germans which happened to be cripples or idiots, at that time.

  45. on 28 Jun 2009 at 7:56 pm 45.Severin said …

    “Bruno was burned because he denied and gave his opinion against on the religion, he would have just done some time if he would have not spoke blasphemies.”

    What else did I say?

    What a religion! Burning people for their thoughts!

  46. on 28 Jun 2009 at 8:04 pm 46.Severin said …

    “They were warned which is a good thing.”

    So, when they did not obey, their children were slaughtered?

    Please!

    I am not going to discuss such “arguments” any longer, thanks, have a good sleep (it is 11.30 p.m. here) and dream “good and fair deeds” of your god.

  47. on 28 Jun 2009 at 9:35 pm 47."I AM" said …

    “So you are happy you weren’t a German in Germany 1935 – 1945.

    There was legally recognized by actual government in power, AND ORDERED BY LAW, to kill all Germans which happened to be cripples or idiots, at that time.”

    Severin, are you keeping up? That’s irrelevant to the subject in hand. I bet your happy you were not a Jew in the times of Hitler, my brother.

    “What else did I say?

    What a religion! Burning people for their thoughts!”

    On pure assumption that he was burned because of his theory. In those days you can not get away with blasphemy, Galileo just got time in jail for the same suggestion. Now, how come he did not get burned? Well, maybe because he did not talk blasphemies.

  48. on 28 Jun 2009 at 10:24 pm 48.Chip E said …

    You think I am making an argument? Hardly, I am speaking about the truth and reality and individual responsibility. I don’t argue if God exists or if He is morally upright. Ignore if you like but there is an ultimate judgment one day

  49. on 29 Jun 2009 at 5:39 am 49.All Hail the FSM said …

    Ah yes, there will be an ultimate judgement but it is you who should worry. The Flying Spaghetti Monster will manifest itself on that day and all who believe in him shall rejoice and eat pasta for eternity. But you will be cast into nonexistence for your nonbelief. All praise his noodly appendage.

  50. on 29 Jun 2009 at 6:41 am 50.Severin said …

    “Well, maybe because he did not talk blasphemies.”

    There is obviously no rational way for conversation with you.

    If you agree slavery was moral if it was legal, and if you justify killig for blaspemy depending on time the killings happened, then I have no more rational words for you.

    As an atheist, governed by my own mind and feelings, my home education, my common sense, probably a little bit also by my genes, I can NEVER, at NO times, justify slavery, torturing, killing, starving, and I do not need any god to tell me it is wrong.

    But, don’t you see the paradox in your explanations?

    The “persecutions” (killings, burnts)and slavery were LEGAL, so they were MORAL at times when happened. These are your words!

    I am asking you WHO MADE THEM LEGAL? God? Or men?

    So are MEN making rules for god, or what?

    Is your god, and the church promoting him, the same one as it used to be centuries ago? If they are the same, why than killing for blasphemy and other “persecutions” are not legal and moral today, as they were some centuries ago?

    Is the church changing its mind? Is it “going with time”? How is your god accepting it?

    How can anyone trust such a “chameleon” organisation: It is legal and moral to kill today, but we will se about it tomorrow! We will wait to see what new lows will MEN make, and behave according to them!
    Where is god in this story?

  51. on 29 Jun 2009 at 6:45 am 51.Severin said …

    Bravo All Hail the FSM!

  52. on 29 Jun 2009 at 9:08 am 52.Xenon said …

    The problem of both sides manifests itself so well here. The Christians with their truth and they atheist attempting to talk them out of their truth into their truth. Bottom line neither side knows what the truth really could be. You have your faith and speculation but no solid irrefutable facts to back your assertion on either side. While I respect the faith of both sides, humility would be the right response admitting that you do no have the answers regardless of your faith.

    All Hail to the Unknown!

  53. on 29 Jun 2009 at 9:49 pm 53."I AM" said …

    “If you agree slavery was moral if it was legal, and if you justify killig for blaspemy depending on time the killings happened, then I have no more rational words for you.”

    I agreed to slavery with regulations protecting the slave is moral. I do not justify anything with killing for blasphemy, I am just simply saying if you are convicted of a crime, you should get justified for it, isn’t that what happened with Jesus and He was innocent, too? I am not saying that I agree with that, I am saying thats the way it was. Hope this comment would make it clear for you, brother.

    “I am asking you WHO MADE THEM LEGAL? God? Or men?”

    The government in power. The men of their government are not going to stand for these atheist protest.

    “Is your god, and the church promoting him, the same one as it used to be centuries ago? If they are the same, why than killing for blasphemy and other “persecutions” are not legal and moral today, as they were some centuries ago?”

    I think your logic can speak for that. We are in a land that encourages any religion, and still manages to promote God.

    Churches everywhere are collapsing and corrupt, but you can not blame every church. The main religion in the times of the Romans were Catholicism.

  54. on 30 Jun 2009 at 1:51 am 54.L said …

    [“Is your god, and the church promoting him, the same one as it used to be centuries ago? If they are the same, why than killing for blasphemy and other “persecutions” are not legal and moral today, as they were some centuries ago?”

    I think your logic can speak for that. We are in a land that encourages any religion, and still manages to promote God.]

    So if we were all christians, it’d be okay for slavery and blasphemy and whatnot?

  55. on 30 Jun 2009 at 9:27 am 55.Chip E said …

    “So if we were all christians, it’d be okay for slavery and blasphemy and whatnot?”

    That was Hebrew law, not God’s law. Who did Christ condenm in the NT? The relgious Jewish pharisees full of man-made laws.

    We are under the ne covenant of Christ,
    We are to follow Him. Love God & Love your nrighbor while going into the world and sharing the good news of Christ. I doesn’t get better than that.

  56. on 30 Jun 2009 at 1:03 pm 56.Severin said …

    “I agreed to slavery with regulations protecting the slave is moral.”

    Where have you ever seen or heard about such a slavery?
    Even if slaves were ever “protected” by some “laws”, the fact that a man/women/child has no freedom would be disgusting and unacceptable such as it is.
    Imagine yourself as a “protected” slave: your owner decides about EACH SINGLE SECOND of your life. Would you mind not to be tortured, if you lived in a “golden cage”. And your children become slaves “automatically”, by birth, and continue to live your/their desperate lifes.
    But the cage was never golden for any slaves in history of human race!
    Than imagine yourself as an unprotected one: Beside the complete lack of freedom, beside hard work, without payment, and poor food, and no freedom at all, to do what you like at absolutely no time, you get on regular basis your “portion” of torturing, rapes (women, boys), and if boss is in a bad mood, he just kills you any moment he wants.

    My personal(atheistic) moral, built in my mind, tells me that keeping people as slaves, by force, is UNMORAL under any possible/imaginable circumstance. If slavery was ever, in any way, regulated by any laws – shame on the law-makers, shame on society which accepted it.
    I am shaming for them!

    It is NOT truth that laws must be obeyed no matter how immoral they are. An honest man always finds ways not to deal with immorality in the society he is living at. It sometimes costs, but there are many glorious examples of people who fighted immorality of their own society, in spite of then-positive laws.
    There are/were much more, less known, or unknown cases, where people just quietly lived their lives, trying to live by moral rules built in their minds, contrary to rules accepted by other people.

    The idea that law justifies immorality, lead to holocaust! Everything in Germany from 1934. to 1945. was in accordance with their positive laws!

    “I do not justify anything with killing for blasphemy,…”

    Sorry, but than you abviously did not read the Bible!
    God himself (if the Bibe is the word of god) ordered killing for blasphemy. Do not, pls. make me look trough the Bible for examples, there are many of them.
    Christian church DID kill for blasphemy, using the Bible as fudmantal word of god as justification, there is no doubt about it. And you must be very confused when you say “I do not justify….it”.

    Pleas refere to your own words in 42.:”The convictions towards him (Bruno) are blasphemy in many accounts,…”. And he WAS burnt, and YOU are explaining to me WHY was he burnt (for blasphemy!), so something is very wrong here. It seems to me that with those explanations you DO justify killing for blasphemy – otherwise why would you try to explain why he was killed. I know that! So, was his death justified, or not?

  57. on 30 Jun 2009 at 1:43 pm 57.Severin said …

    To Chip E:

    “That was Hebrew law, not God’s law. Who did Christ condenm in the NT? The relgious Jewish pharisees full of man-made laws.”

    Sorry, Chip E, you obviously never read the Bible. Would you like me to find many direct orders, from god himself, in the Bible, to kill for blasphemy, or you will try yourself?

    Would you be very surprised to know that Jesus himself was a Jew?
    O.K., he never provoked killing, but his father, in Old Testament ORDERED killing for blasphemy, many times!

    Would you be surprised to know that the whole Bible is some 90% based on old Jewish religious books?
    Pls. compare yorself!

    And Jesus was NOT condemned by any Jews, but by Roman Court. Pontius Pilat was Roman Governer of Judea, and HE condemned Jesus, according to Roman laws. Hebrew laws DID NOT EXIST at that time in country occupied bu Romans. Crucifying was COMMON PENALTY at that time, in all Roman countries. It happened literally every day in ancient Rome countries, to many and many people, so Jesus was nothing special regarding pains he had on the cross.

    Pls. READ the Bible, do not talk by heart.

    I suggest you to read more than Bible, to be better informed, but it would help to read the Bible at least.

  58. on 30 Jun 2009 at 1:49 pm 58.Severin said …

    As a simple evidence that crucifying was COMMON penalty, you can take the fact that 2 other people were crucified with Jesus, just for robbery!

  59. on 30 Jun 2009 at 2:48 pm 59.Chip E said …

    Ah yes Severin, to the Hebrews. Hebrew law. I think, you need to read the NT and find out why Jesus came (his words). You like to view the OT as the entire Bible. Well not the whole OT maybe just a few sprinkled verses. Yes, God did punish people in the OT and the NT. SO? He always warned the people first but we can be hard headed to commands.

  60. on 30 Jun 2009 at 2:51 pm 60.Chip E said …

    Oh Serenin, if you don’t belive that Jesus was condemned by the Jews you need to read the Bible. They couldn’t legally have him crucified so the pressured Rome to do so or threatened to have their Roman Leaders brought before Ceasar.

    Who stood outside Pilates court yelling Curcify Him!

  61. on 30 Jun 2009 at 5:12 pm 61.Lou said …

    What’s your point, Chip? You anti-Semetic?

  62. on 30 Jun 2009 at 5:14 pm 62.Lou said …

    “That was Hebrew law, not God’s law. Who did Christ condenm in the NT? The relgious Jewish pharisees full of man-made laws.”

    Chip, read your bible again:

    1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

    2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

    3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

    3b) “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

    3c) “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

    4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)

    5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

    6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

    7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

    8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).

    9) “…the scripture cannot be broken.” –Jesus Christ, John 10:35

  63. on 30 Jun 2009 at 6:59 pm 63.Chip E said …

    Lou.

    Thanks for proving the point. All NT scripture used and none refer to specific Hebrew laws.

    He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”
    Matt 22:37-40

    He later sated “I come to FULFILL the law” So there you go.

    Anti-semetic? No Louie just a reader of the Bible. You posted a lot of points so look up who had Jesus killed. You a Xenaphobe?

  64. on 30 Jun 2009 at 8:08 pm 64.Xallus said …

    It seems like a certain person here bases some of his theistic confidence in the population argument, noting on the 24th of June the millions of people that believe the same as he does. Millions believe it so its ludicrous to think that many people are delusional.

    Excluding all formerly active religions (mythology) the largest religion in the world (christianity) still only makes up about 1/3 of the world’s population. If you really want to use population to bolster your confidence that you’re not sharing an almost exclusively heredetary delusion, then you have to suffer the consequences of the big picture of that argument.

    Christianity holding 33% of the world’s population (or 2.1 billion people), all of whom believe theirs is the only god. So even being the largest religion in the world you’re still considered delusional by nearly 70% of the world’s people. So now the only people that cannot possibly be delusional are the ones that don’t claim to converse, love, or send wishes to any invisible man in the sky. Which leaves you with these as the most likely explanations.

    A: One religion is right making at minimum 50% of the world delusional (not 70 because atheists have no possibly delusional claims).

    B: All religions are wrong, every theist is delusional.

    Population defense…Weak. Not to mention you “lol’d” about it expressing an undeservingly strong confidence in it, but upon further inspection just shows your own level of astronomical ignorance.

    I won’t beat a dead horse too much concerning the prayer argument. The bible says god will answer all prayers in good faith, over and over and over. And jesus himself gives a ridiculous example of moving a mountain just because, so they don’t even have to be for needs. The amputee question isn’t limited to just amputees, it exists to show that for some reason…no matter which religion you hold, prayer never seems to work for ANYTHING that could not have occured by coincidence.

    Examining the population again, 2.1 billion christians maybe pumping out half a trillion prayers a month, every month. A vast portion of those prayers must be for things that cannot be fixed by coincidence, yet we’ve never heard of an amputee waking up with his legs back. Or a man with no eyes waking up with a perfectly functioning pair. Statistically there would be at least ONE, wouldn’t you think? With hundreds of trillions of prayers a year… No, the only prayers that are ever “answered” are those which can be explained as other than magical causes.

    Prayer, miracles, “seeing” “finding” and/or “hearing” your god aren’t exclusive with your religion. All present and past theistic systems have and/or had those claims. The only difference between religion and mythology is how many people still believe it.

    Here is the point where most christians counter with the “free will” argument. Explaining that god doesn’t heal amputees, give eyeless men eyes, or save 8 year old boys and girls from becoming sex slaves is that doing so would violate free will. But jesus said god will answer all prayers, period (and thats new testament! so its really real…) So either jesus lied, god changed his mind, or gods not real. Plus god seemed to have no problem “violating” free will throughout the bible. Its full of magic tricks and miraculous healings. Why do miracles seem to slow down to a grinding halt as the ability to scientifically test miraculous claims rises?

    I really think you’re too far gone down the rabbit hole, and none of this matters to you. You’ll continue to make up excuses for your god and his book for the rest of your life. If you have to make so many excuses up to validate something isnt that reason alone to attempt to question it without bias?

  65. on 30 Jun 2009 at 8:36 pm 65.Severin said …

    “Oh Serenin, if you don’t belive that Jesus was condemned by the Jews you need to read the Bible.”

    Sorry, this is not a matter of believing or not believing, this is proven historical fact!

    Even in the Bible you can read that Pontius Pilat was ROMAN (not Jew), and that HE condemned Jesus.

    Other things written in Bible are garbage.

    Try to find more relevant literature!

  66. on 30 Jun 2009 at 8:45 pm 66.Severin said …

    “Who stood outside Pilates court yelling Curcify Him!”

    So, by typical “logic” of seeing what yoy WANT to see, and not what really happened, the crowd yelling “crucify him” is guilty for crime, and the executor is excused.

    What if the crowd on a football match yells “kill him” and the player on the playground really kills the oponent player – who is to blaim and to punish? The crowd?

    Or Jews?

  67. on 30 Jun 2009 at 9:02 pm 67.Severin said …

    “Yes, God did punish people in the OT and the NT. SO?”

    So, if you justify your god mascring and klling people, including children, for blasphemy, you are both monsters, he for mascring and killing, and you for justificatoin of such morbid acts.

    “He always warned the people first but we can be hard headed to commands.”

    Jack the Ripper also warned his lady victims first, to “give him …., oherwise….”.

    Are you fully conscious when you write such nonsenses?

    You justify a killer by his warning the victims!

  68. on 30 Jun 2009 at 9:47 pm 68.Severin said …

    Chip, what is wrong with you?

    Lou is explicitly quoting original verses from Bible to show how ugly, cruel and long-lasting were god’s laws, no matter were they from OT or NT, and you thank him for proving the point.

    What point of YOURS did he prove?
    The only conclusion I can make, based on those verses is that Jews had no as disgusting laws as were the laws of god himself.

  69. on 01 Jul 2009 at 12:49 am 69.Chip E said …

    Actually saverin that was not Lou’s original intent. We were discussing Hebrew cultural law with NT law. Obviously it is your intent.

    The reason you can’t understand is because you attempt to put yourself in the place of God. You are not and neither is Jack the Ripper. Don’t expect me to justify because I am not God either. Yes God punished his people because he is a God who judges as well. They were not innocent since God warned His people many times. He states why it was done.

    Why do you believe you can question His morality? I follow Jesus because He is my new covenant and He commands me to Love God & Love my neighbor.

    Severin the fact you pick and chose what to believe and not believe from the Bible to somehow “protect” Jews is laughable. I suggest you read WHY the Romans crucified Him who stated “His blood is on your hands” and who stated “Who shall you save Jesus or Barrabas”.

    The Jews had the POWER to save Jesus. The Jewish elite released a thief in order to crucify Jesus. Think you can slip by that one?

    Pilate clearly stated he found no fault and wanted to let Him go. He was a coward as well. Hey, but believe what you like no skin off my hide.

    Mao & Stalin were atheist, they killed millions but you guys are still atheist. I don’t see how you can justify such a beief.:)

  70. on 01 Jul 2009 at 2:28 am 70."I AM" said …

    “Where have you ever seen or heard about such a slavery?”

    Sir, it’s in the Bible.

    “…by force, is UNMORAL under any possible/imaginable circumstance.”

    After the seventh year there are to be set free.

    “It is NOT truth that laws must be obeyed no matter how immoral they are.”

    Maybe you should be a judge? you would be awesome at it.

    “Sorry, but than you abviously did not read the Bible!
    God himself (if the Bibe is the word of god) ordered killing for blasphemy. Do not, pls. make me look trough the Bible for examples, there are many of them.
    Christian church DID kill for blasphemy, using the Bible as fudmantal word of god as justification, there is no doubt about it. And you must be very confused when you say “I do not justify….it”.”

    My brother, I do not agree.. I believe in fair trail with the convict, first. Then, probably a nice sentence would do it or maybe a banned from the city or country. Now, we can not because we live in a country that promotes people like yourself, who think laws are immoral. Although, I understand more or less where you are coming from, but laws are made for isolating people in their moral lives, regardless of how immoral or moral.

    “So, was his death justified, or not?”

    Sir, I do not know he’s trail does not carry enough information to criticize. I would need to know how many times he was convicted for the same account and then refer to the law.

    “Would you be surprised to know that the whole Bible is some 90% based on old Jewish religious books?”

    Would you plz show me that reference?

    “The only conclusion I can make, based on those verses is that Jews had no as disgusting laws as were the laws of god himself.//Chip, read your bible again:”

    Lou and yourself misunderstand Jesus teachings, In all verses of which Jesus criticize the Jews, he simply points out that they only fulfill the laws that they want to fulfill. Sir, if you read the Bible correctly, you would know that Jesus only talks in parables when He speaks in His teaching method(s)..

    “Sorry, this is not a matter of believing or not believing, this is proven historical fact!”

    First time I see an atheist admit to Jesus ‘s existence.

  71. on 01 Jul 2009 at 2:56 am 71."I AM" said …

    “the fact that a man/women/child has no freedom would be disgusting and unacceptable such as it is.”

    Apparently, it was acceptable by Israelites.. “Exodus 22:21″, this verse protects the slaves. It would be up to the owner if the law was maintained in his household. You can not hold this against God, if you want against the Jews.

    “What if the crowd on a football match yells “kill him” and the player on the playground really kills the oponent player – who is to blaim and to punish? The crowd?

    Or Jews?”

    Sir, that’s a football match.. you can not hold a match of pure entertainment against a jurisdiction between life of two prisoners. Pilate and the priests agreed and said “let the people decide”.

  72. on 01 Jul 2009 at 1:20 pm 72.Lou said …

    Chip, get some reading abilities. Go back to elementary school. It’s a fine place to start.

    Those verses show there is no “old” covenent you no longer have to follow. You’re supposed to follow ALL of God’s rules, like a deranged maniac (like “I AM”). There is no “new covenent” because the old one never went away.

  73. on 01 Jul 2009 at 2:54 pm 73.Chip E said …

    Sure Lou, sure. This may help since you do not know what is a covenant. I realize the atheist view of the Bible is for only one purpose but do a little study. I don’t have the time to expound in great detail.

    Good Luck

    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/what-is-the-new-covenant-god-offers-to-man.html

  74. on 01 Jul 2009 at 3:07 pm 74.Lou said …

    Ah, Chip.

    It’s funny because Jesus says you still have to follow the old laws as that post up ^ tells you.

  75. on 01 Jul 2009 at 5:04 pm 75.Mellow said …

    “Sir, that’s a football match.. you can not hold a match of pure entertainment against a jurisdiction between life of two prisoners.”

    This is what we call special pleading.

    “Pilate and the priests agreed and said “let the people decide”.”

    Let’s say you win this. (You haven’t yet.) What do you conclude from this? It’s alright to hate the Jews?

  76. on 01 Jul 2009 at 6:20 pm 76.Chip E said …

    LOL, well Lou. I’m not following you so I believe I’ll stick to what Jesus taught me. Thanks for your discipleship though.

    Where did the hating Jews come from? Jesus came for the purpose of death. It was a foregone conclusion from the OT. Jesus was a Jew and His chosen people.

  77. on 01 Jul 2009 at 6:57 pm 77.Lou said …

    “Pilate and the priests agreed and said “let the people decide”.”
    What’s the point of this statement? What are you trying to accomplish with saying the Jews are responsible for killing Jesus and not the Romans as you have tried so hard to point out?

    Chip, Jesus says you MUST follow all the old laws, including the ones about stoning homosexuals and witches, approving slavery, and all that jazz. You don’t find anything wrong with that?

    Did you actually read any of that post earlier? I can’t help you if you didn’t. Those quoted verses prove you still have to do all that. Although this one is especially interesting to me.

    5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

    Hmm, you can smell Jesus’s love.

  78. on 02 Jul 2009 at 4:12 am 78."I AM" said …

    “What’s the point of this statement? What are you trying to accomplish with saying the Jews are responsible for killing Jesus and not the Romans as you have tried so hard to point out?”

    My brother lou, that comment was not for you sir.

    “Chip, Jesus says you MUST follow all the old laws, including the ones about stoning homosexuals and witches, approving slavery, and all that jazz. You don’t find anything wrong with that?”

    I’m sorry for butting in, my brother, but Jesus clearly emphasizes love thy brother all through out the new testament.. The verse you point out is merely a defense of Jesus. He simply acknowledges that the Jews fulfill the laws that they choose, instead of every one of them.

    “Let’s say you win this. (You haven’t yet.) What do you conclude from this? It’s alright to hate the Jews?”

    I am just completing a statement that everyone already knows. I would not hate the Jews they are people and they have their mistakes like I do.

  79. on 02 Jul 2009 at 10:38 am 79.chip E said …

    I was reading Hebrews 7 this morning. It sums up the covenant and the new law we have under Jesus Christ.

  80. on 02 Jul 2009 at 5:21 pm 80.Lou said …

    Chip, before you continue to lie and delude yourself:

    “…the scripture cannot be broken.” –Jesus Christ, John 10:35

    (None of the scripture is “obsolete”.)

    “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

    (Stoning gays and witches is useful!)

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

    “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

    Again, you must follow every single rule, NT AND OT.

    Chip, what does that “covenant” in “Hebrews” (Isn’t that OT? HMMMMMM) have to do with you not following the laws Jesus said you have to in the NEW T?
    _________________________________________

    ““What’s the point of this statement? What are you trying to accomplish with saying the Jews are responsible for killing Jesus and not the Romans as you have tried so hard to point out?”

    My brother lou, that comment was not for you sir.”

    Thanks for dodging! Chip has gone out of his way to say the Jews killed Jesus. What are we supposed to conclude from this? I am also not your ‘brother.’

  81. on 02 Jul 2009 at 5:59 pm 81.Chip E said …

    Lou

    You are obviously a very angry atheist. I am feel for you and I’m not sure what you are attempting to accomplish. I suggest a theology book. Ryrie has a great one. You obviously have little understanding of scripture and are only attempting to somehow disprove God by quoting random verses here and there. You don’t know a law from a covenant.

    Notice how you slip in “OT” where Jesus says “The Law”? I believe you think the OT is a book of Law. The OT is history & culture, prophecy, wisdom and psalms. That is why we don’t all go out and build Tabernacles and arks. You obviously cannot differentiate culture from law. Jesus clearly summed up the law into two in Matthew 22:37 but that goes against your desired end so you ignore it.

    I truly do spend time with those who desire to learn. For those who only desire to mock and attempt to antagonize I do not. I hope you find the cure for your hate and anger. Its not healthy.

  82. on 02 Jul 2009 at 7:18 pm 82.Lou said …

    You would consider the Ten Commandments and the rest of Leviticus and Deuteronomy history & culture but not law?

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.”

    Sounds like a law to me, bucko.

    Deuteronomy 22:13–21, “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and then spurns her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings an evil name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her the tokens of virginity,’ then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the tokens of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate.”

    Another law.

    Exodus 21, which outlines the rules for the proper handling of slaves, for example, “when you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing,” and “when a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.”

    Does this look like a law to you?

    If there’s a problem with the laws (yes, laws apparently if God commands them (like stoning gays)) then that means there’s a problem in your book. Could it be one of those CONTRADICTIONS we keep hearing about?!!!11 Could be!

    I have little understanding? I’M POINTING OUT THINGS IN YOUR BOOK YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT KNOW OR ARE OTHERWISE IGNORING!

    What anger? Your stupidity can only cause frustration. You also seem to have a severe reading and comprehension disability.

    I know I’m dealing with a very stupid person, who tries to shift his failures onto other people with made up emotions (seriously, can you see through my monitor? Can you?) to avoid talking about them.

  83. on 02 Jul 2009 at 7:19 pm 83.Lou said …

    Stoning is descriped as appropriate punishment for the following:

    1. For touching Mount Sinai Exodus 19:13
    2. For taking “accursed things” Joshua 7:1-26
    3. For cursing or blaspheming Leviticus 24:16
    4. For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) Deuteronomy 22:23-24
    5. For animals (like an ox that gores a human) Exodus 21:28
    6. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night Deuteronomy 22:13-21
    7. For worshipping other gods Deuteronomy 17:2-5
    8. For preaching the wrong religion Deuteronomy 13:5-10
    9. For disobeying parents Deuteronomy 21:18-21
    10. For witches and wizards Leviticus 20:27
    11. For giving your children to Molech Leviticus 20:2
    12. For breaking the Sabbath Numbers 15:32-56
    13. For cursing the king 1 Kings 21:10

    Are these laws?! Course not…

  84. on 02 Jul 2009 at 7:21 pm 84.Lou said …

    Do you care to explain where you were going with the “Jews wanted Jesus crucified!” thing or not?

    If not, have fun being anti-Semetic.

  85. on 03 Jul 2009 at 1:19 am 85.Chip E said …

    Sure Lou, good luck with all of that. Since you are an atheist, why do you care? Aren’t these laws I don’t follow my problem:) I’m touched you care but really. I tried to tell you the difference but you continue to ignore. So be it.

    One more time. The Jews were asked free Barrabas or Jesus. They chose Barrabas over the innocent man Jesus. They took Jesus to the Romans and foced the Romans hand. Really Lou, read the background on the event and stop being so childish. It that is anti-semetic so be it. Only problem is I am 1/2 Jew. Ah, who knew.

    Have fun being an ant-Italian!

  86. on 03 Jul 2009 at 6:43 am 86.Lou said …

    What difference where? The verses I’ve quoted, what’s wrong with them? Why aren’t they relevant?

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

    I know you have an aversion to reading, but this is the important part of “Why won’t God heal amputees?” If you had read any of this, you most not ask or say such stupid things as you have and not waste people’s time. (My time personally is worthless but that’s neither here nor there.)

    The “anti-Italian” crap literally came out of nowhere, you’re apparently a self-hating half Jew (there’s really no other reason you would go out of your way to prove the Jews killed Jesus), and you’ve all but basically admitted nobody should ever convert to your religion on your failure to resolve anything..

    Do you think you converted any readers?

  87. on 03 Jul 2009 at 3:48 pm 87.Lou said …

    *might not most

    brainfart

  88. on 03 Jul 2009 at 8:43 pm 88.Chip E said …

    Trying to convert you Lou? What gave you that idea? Only the Holy Spirit converts a man not an argument. I know this is all new to you so it is OK. I wonder though, does your hate and anger convert anyone? I mean does anyone want to live in such a state of mind all that time?

    You have an aversion to history as well. Much like some Muslims deny the holocaust or 9/11 you desire to be a historical revisionist. I am grateful you desire to protect the Jews but we are fine with our history. Jesus death was preordained so there is no guilt. I wish you well.

  89. on 04 Jul 2009 at 1:45 am 89."I AM" said …

    “Thanks for dodging!”

    Dodging what?! It’s simple you know the story and I am just clarifying the people put Him there.. It was not for you, nothing to conclude.

  90. on 04 Jul 2009 at 1:58 am 90."I AM" said …

    “1. For touching Mount Sinai Exodus 19:13″

    That would be Exodus 19:12(NIV).

    Just clarifying.. :D

  91. on 05 Jul 2009 at 4:29 am 91.OMG! said …

    Why are you portraying atheists as running scared???

    You claim you do not believe in God, or Superior Creator, yet, you bash God and/or Superior Creator?

    You are more lost than you realize! How can you disrespect and bash what you do not believe exists, nor understand?

    Since you say that faith and God do not exist; what is the point of your website? You are and according to your belief, (or lack thereof); your site is totally pointless.

    Give the world a useful website.

    Don’t you crochet, or something?

  92. on 05 Jul 2009 at 5:11 pm 92.Douglas Jay Falcon said …

    Disproving something =/= bashing it, although in this case Christianity needs to be bashed.

    If god and faith do not exist, that makes this website more important than you think.

    If you ever watched Batman Begins, the villains in the movie release a dangerous hallucinogen into Gotham that will tear apart the city in madness. Replace hallucinogen with Christianity and Gotham with the world and take it from there.

    Trying to prevent that is more useful than crochet, don’t ya think? Debating loonatics is awfully fun, though.

    Also, if you want to paint atheists as living pointless lives, look at who believes what. The atheist (mildly derogative, use rationalist from now on or you should be ignored) believes he has one life to live and should make the most of it. The xian (technically means the same & is shorter), on the other hand, believes he gets a second, perfect life and is willing to make himself a martyr for it. To him, his earthly life is an obstacle to eternal life and therefore worthless after “being saved.”

  93. on 05 Jul 2009 at 5:20 pm 93.Lou said …

    “Thanks for dodging!”

    Dodging what?! It’s simple you know the story and I am just clarifying the people put Him there.. It was not for you, nothing to conclude.

    I’m sorry, what? Avoiding the question counts as dodging and is just overall intellectual dishonesty. Who cares? It was the Romans who actually executed him. Personally, I don’t care about a primitive group of people from over 2000 years ago or what they did. But you and Chip sure seem to.

    “1. For touching Mount Sinai Exodus 19:13?

    That would be Exodus 19:12(NIV).

    Just clarifying.. :D
    Sure, that totally makes what I said invalid. Afterall, one verse difference negates the meaning of what I just said. NOT. The fact of the matter is, you should still be stoned for touching the mountain. That is a law, which Chip said there was none, just “history and culture.” (Stoning for that (or any) offense is just ridiculous, but that’s the point I am making.)

  94. on 05 Jul 2009 at 5:55 pm 94.Lou said …

    Trying to convert you Lou? What gave you that idea? Only the Holy Spirit converts a man not an argument. I know this is all new to you so it is OK. I wonder though, does your hate and anger convert anyone? I mean does anyone want to live in such a state of mind all that time?

    Something about Jesus saying you to be a fisher of men or some such crap. You know, your duty as a follower of the Christ. There is no “new to me” crap since I have clearly shown I know more about your book than you do. Perhaps it is you who is “new” to this. I would hope so that your god converts men because you are doing a piss-poor job. (Why are you here again?)

    Once again, you fall back on saying I’m “hateful and angry.” This is a diversion from the fact you don’t know your bible. Stop that! You have no way to know I’m angry. (I’ll ask you again. Can you see through my monitor from who knows how far away?) Saying I’m angry does nothing to make your beliefs any more justified. In fact, if you followed your bible (OT & NT) you should be more hateful and angry then me.

    You have an aversion to history as well. Much like some Muslims deny the holocaust or 9/11 you desire to be a historical revisionist. I am grateful you desire to protect the Jews but we are fine with our history. Jesus death was preordained so there is no guilt. I wish you well.

    If you really want to see “historical reenvisionism,” see http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/. It’s most probable Jesus never existed at all, much less as a walking talking diety who got killed. Like I told ‘I am’, I really could care less about the Jews from 2000 years ago. But you seem really focused on it, and want to go with the “Jesus killers!” aspect and possibly apply that to today’s Jews. I couldn’t tell you why.

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1559#comic Could someone explain this to me? Other than the long hair? I’m aware of the usual apologetic bullshit, but logically it does not make sense.

  95. on 05 Jul 2009 at 6:00 pm 95.Lou said …

    I’m starting to wonder if the saying “Arguing on the internet is like participating in the special olympics. Even if you win you’re a retard.” has any meaning. Prove me wrong!

    I don’t expect you to. You’ll just respond with non-answers and more apologetic bullshit. I think I’m done with people who can’t debate. (No, this does not mean you win unless your point was to be so goddamn annoying the other guy becomes too bored to keep picking holes in your stupid faith.)

  96. on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:37 am 96.Severin said …

    To all, and especially to I AM and CHIP E:

    It would be interesting to know wether PILAT or Jews KNEW Jsus was a god!

    Jesus came to a town and made a mess in the temple where people worshipped their god, mumbling something people could not be able to understand, absolutely NOT declaring himself as a god, and not proving he was one, by any of his acts.

    What would you do if some tramp entered your church, and made a mess mumbling something ununderstandable to you?

    It was normal, and in accordance to the nature of crowd (not moral, and I do not aprove it generally!), that people got mad, and wanted lynching.

    The priests of course wanted Jesus to be punished, to show the people how they care about the temple and about the feelings of their people.

    Pilat, of course, as a good diplomat, used their yelling “crucify him”, and condemned Jesus as a concession to crowd, costing him nothing, to decrease the tension, and to show how he “cares” for occupied people.

    Did ANYONE know Jesus was a god, and would anyone DARE to crucify him if he knew it? If anyone knew his “real” power, and his “ability” to fight back on dramatic way, or to punish, afterwords?

    What is new in this? What special happened with crucifying Jesus, that did not happen by punishing millions of peoples in similar situations during history?

    Only Jews behave this way, or you can find thousends of such examples in human history, in all nations, no exception?

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