Feed on Posts or Comments 24 October 2014

Christianity Admin on 20 Jan 2007 09:52 am

God murdering millions

This recent post over at the Dwindling blog estimates the number of people that God murders in the Bible:

How many has God killed? (complete list and estimated total)

And over on YouTube, ScienceChick points out the Top Fifteen Mass Murderers in History:

  1. Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000

  2. Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
  3. Mullah Omar – Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
  4. Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
  5. Suharto (East Timor, West Papua, Communists, 1966-98) 800,000
  6. Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
  7. Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
  8. Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,00
  9. Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million
  10. Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
  11. Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000
  12. Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000
  13. Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000
  14. Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) 49,000,000
  15. Yahweh (biblical God) Every living, breathing creature on Earth except for 6 people as well as numerous subsequent massacres. This is the only mass murderer in history for whose crimes it’s easier to count the people who lived than the ones who were murdered.

The carnage in the Bible is horrific. Yet believers will say that their god is “all-loving”.

Why worship a horrific mass murderer? See Understanding Delusion for an explanation.

24 Responses to “God murdering millions”

  1. on 21 Jan 2007 at 1:56 am 1.Mattstarrs said …

    I have read a lot on this blog site about how Christianity is responsible for so much violence in the world (mostly from Mushy Ted).

    So let’s just for a moment say that the Bible isn’t true. That means we can take number 15 off the list because it apparently isn’t true. I shouldn’t get too many arguments there from anyone that doesn’t believe in the Bible.

    Look at the rest of the list. I don’t see too many Christians there. Some would try to argue that Hitler had the backing of the Catholic Church because they never excommunicated him, but that’s a bit of a stretch – especially when Hitler came through the ranks of a homo-erotic boys youth movement which had strong ties with the occult. His own religion of Roman Catholicism is already somewhat removed from Biblical Christianity, and his associations with other religious entities perverted his beliefs even further.

    As one author demonstrates here, Hitlers religion was more about politics and Nationalism than orthodoxy or orthopraxis:

    “Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.”

    As I have pointed out in other threads, religion can be used for evil purposes, as can so many other realms of social life. But this does not mean that religion is an evil in and of itself.

    I don’t know a whole lot about Mussolini, but here is a quote from one biography:

    “At the age of 9, Mussolini attended a boarding school. Here he developed a distaste for religion”.

    This is from another one:

    “the young Mussolini referred to priests as “black germs”.”

    He did recognise the power of education to advance his evil agenda:

    “Mussolini and the Roman Catholic Church clashed over who should control education. To ensure that children grew up as good Fascists, Mussolini wanted the state to control this – as it did.”

    So I don’t think we can lay the blame for his atrocities on the Christians either. We could however point out that he was an atheist that had an agenda which suggested that education would help him achieve his personal goals.

    So if we take the one off the list that you actually believe never happened, and leave all the others, we see a clear demonstration that Christianity is NOT responsible for at least 13 of the top 14 Mass Murders of all time, and to make a case of Hitler as a Christian and to say that his Christianity is responsible for the other one would require some fairly hefty effort to put together, and at leat to my mind, would not be likely to succeed.

  2. on 21 Jan 2007 at 5:24 am 2.Mushinronjya said …

    Mattstars says:
    “As I have pointed out in other threads, religion can be used for evil purposes, as can so many other realms of social life. But this does not mean that religion is an evil in and of itself.”

    Yes, it does. If you continue to support people to believe in imaginary friends, then you’re saying we cannot question the very thing they believe in. As long as we can’t question the very thing they believe in, they will continue to believe that there is some god somewhere telling them what to do through their stupid holy book. There is no other way to stop religious violence other than to get rid of the delusions entailed. However, if you have another idea, please, present it. I’d love to hear it. In fact, I’m sure you will present something, because the alternative would mean the demise of your religion.

  3. on 21 Jan 2007 at 6:15 am 3.Mattstarrs said …

    Hmmmm . . . how should I answer that . . . I know – I could quote Mushy Ted again:

    “You’re an idiot”.

    No, that would make it seem like I am as linguistically inept as him.

    I could point out that he has totally missed the point of my post . . . but he still wouldn’t get it.

    I could point out that for his argument to have credence he would have to apply it to all other root causes of those 14 mass murders. One of those causes as it turns out, that features regularly in the list IS ATHEISM!!!!

    No, Ted would never be open minded enough to see that it is hypocritical for him to single out religion for eradication when his own belief system is responsible for nearly three times as many deaths as all other causes combined!

    Really Mushy Ted, atheism (at least in this list) is the most violent belief system of all. Don’t you think you should remove the plank out of your own eye before accusing us of having specks in ours?

    By the way – you still haven’t produced any evidence for your false assertions on other threads despite a ridiculous amount of challenges for you to do so.

  4. on 21 Jan 2007 at 6:37 am 4.Mattstarrs said …

    The link for the opening statement for this thread:-

    “This recent post over at the Dwindling blog estimates the number of people that God murders in the Bible:”

    was worth a look. Actually the number is grossly underestimated, as the Bible actually talks about future deaths as if they were already done, so the number should reach well into the billions.

    The astonishing thing is that the author left out the most important death of all. The one where a completely innocent man was murdered for the sins of the Guilty. Read Isaiah 53. God laid our sins on Jesus Christ and killed him for those sins.

    He did this so that all we who are deserving of death could have the opportunity to go free.

    This intervention was done by Him because you have sinned and are deserving of death, but He took action so that you would not have to die. If you reject his gift of eternal life the responsibility for your eternal destiny is your own, no matter how you try to lay blame.

  5. on 21 Jan 2007 at 11:27 am 5.Mushinronjya said …

    “I could point out that he has totally missed the point of my post . . . but he still wouldn’t get it.”

    You have not made any case. All you’ve said was that: “This doesn’t mean that relgion is evil”. Yes, it is evil, and I have said why.

    It also slows scientific progress, separates people, stops many from pursuing the truth.. it hurts us as a species.

    “No, Ted would never be open minded enough to see that it is hypocritical for him to single out religion for eradication when his own belief system is responsible for nearly three times as many deaths as all other causes combined!”

    You’re a complete idiot.
    Atheism is not to blame for such, and you cannot show it. How old are you, 12? You can’t debate because you’re not capable.

    Also, atheism isn’t a belief system.
    Get a freakin clue.
    You’re not even worth responding to at this point.

    Why don’t you ask Jesus to plug you up the ass?

  6. on 21 Jan 2007 at 2:47 pm 6.Mattstarrs said …

    Because I know that is not something that he wants to do, nor is it something I want Him to do.

    It is a good indication of the shallow depths of your banal mind.

  7. on 21 Jan 2007 at 3:06 pm 7.Mattstarrs said …

    Mushy Ted said:
    “Why don’t you ask Jesus to plug you up the ass?”

    I am just wondering how this fits with your self professed rules of debating that you rage on about in other threads.

    There really is nothing you can say to come back from this point.

    You have effectively castigated yourself as an unworthy opponent.

    You make claims without evidence.

    You use circular arguments that have neither foundation, nor practical application.

    You resort to foul language and hysterical insults to compensate for the fact that you cannot match wits.

    You reject opposing arguments out of hand without making inquiry.

    You refuse to view supporting evidence for opposing arguments (like the loose change thing).

    You are afraid of God, because you know within yourself that you are guilty of far more than this and he will hold you accountable.

    You can lie to everybody else, but He knows you better than you know yourself. Your next breath is by His mercy. His hope is that you will come to your senses. He gives you every opportunity to do so making you without excuse in the day of judgement.

    Whatever you respond to this is irrelevant to me.

    I find you void of understanding. Talking to you is like leaning on a stick that breaks and pierces to hand.

    You have taught me one thing only.

    Ted Peterson of Mesquite Texas is a rude, lying, hypocritical,lousy debater.

  8. on 21 Jan 2007 at 3:42 pm 8.Mushinronjya said …

    ““Why don’t you ask Jesus to plug you up the ass?”

    I am just wondering how this fits with your self professed rules of debating that you rage on about in other threads.”

    Since you’re incapable of debating, and came unarmed, then it’s not worth even trying with you anymore, since you can’t stand up to the simplest arguments.

    You make baseless claims, and then say *I* make baseless claims. You don’t know how to debate, and then you say *I* don’t know how. You say someone with an imaginary friend backed up what they said with “solid evidence”, yet we all know he did not.

    You are nothing but a punching bag for us here.

  9. on 21 Jan 2007 at 4:31 pm 9.Mattstarrs said …

    Moderator,

    Mushy has already pointed out that he would have been kicked off of other sites for his lambastic style of denigrating others. What does it take for you to intervene and establish some integrity for this site?

    If you allow those sorts of comments, why moderate at all?

  10. on 21 Jan 2007 at 9:03 pm 10.Mushinronjya said …

    Censorship is bad.
    Unless someone is being blatantly ridiculous with no content at all, then I see no reason to stop anyone from saying what they will. What you do is experience how people think.

    If you showed to be a respectable debater at all, then this would have gone much better. However, you play on words *big time* and attempt to obfuscate the discussion in hopes of appearing “more right”.

    You have failed, and you continue to fail.

  11. on 21 Jan 2007 at 10:21 pm 11.Mattstarrs said …

    I wasn’t talking to you. You are beneath me.

    If anyone wants to differ click on Mushinronjya’s name at the top of his posts and read his ridiculous, bigoted, sexist junk that he really believes. The stuff about birth control and child support is a stunner.

  12. on 22 Jan 2007 at 10:01 am 12.Mushinronjya said …

    I’m glad you enjoy reading my myspace.
    I would like to see what you mean by “bigoted”, since I have no such material on my site.
    Sexist? Explain.

    Oh wait, you’re only good at making assertions, and not backing them up.

    It doesn’t matter if you were or weren’t talking to me.
    You’re in a public forum, Einstein.

  13. on 22 Jan 2007 at 3:31 pm 13.Mattstarrs said …

    Why would you even make a comment like the one about asking Jesus for intimate sexual relations?
    Are you repressing homesexual tendencies?

    Don’t worry, there is more than this that you hide from yourself.

  14. on 22 Jan 2007 at 3:32 pm 14.Mushinronjya said …

    I would only repress homo tendencies about Jesus, because he is my man-love boy-toy.

  15. on 23 Jan 2007 at 5:18 am 15.Mattstarrs said …

    Ohhh!!!!

    I get it. Sorry for being so slow, but the penny only just dropped.

    Mushy Ted you are a JOKE!

    You deleted the sexist, bigoted stuff off of your Myspace site when I exposed it here and then posted a denial that it existed!!!!!!

    You are a complete loser!

    Say what you want to others, but you and I both know it’s true!

    Is this how you deal with all of your faults? LIE, CHEAT and DECIEVE!!!!

    You are one messed up sociopathic individual.

    I couldn’t give a rats about proving anything to you or about you because you are a liar!!!!

    Did anybody else ever read the blog on Ted’s Myspace about how women shouldn’t be able to apply for child support ‘cos it’s their own fault they got pregnant, and if they didn’t want the baby they should have had an abortion?

    That’s what you said, right Ted?

    Someone back me up here. Please tell me someone else read it!

    Let’s shame this pathetic loser out of this forum.

    All you atheists, I know most of you came to your conclusions for intelligent reasons, but this guy has been posting as your rep. Is that how you wanna be represented?

    Read his posts on this thread! Is this someone that you would choose for a spokesman?

    He claims that there are a lots of you guys out there that agree with every word he says. Do you?

    Would you say things like in the post he wrote above?

    Please, restore my faith in reason.

    He made his claims.

    I found him out.

    Then in order to decieve ALL OF US he deleted his myspace blog and wrote:

    I’m glad you enjoy reading my myspace.
    I would like to see what you mean by “bigoted”, since I have no such material on my site.
    Sexist? Explain.

    Oh wait, you’re only good at making assertions, and not backing them up.

    It doesn’t matter if you were or weren’t talking to me.
    You’re in a public forum, Einstein.

    He wrote that to decieve you and I and everyone else that wants to participate in an honest discussion.

    Character is everything Mushy Ted. Yours is unacceptable for yet another reason.

    I bet there has been a heck of a lot of material that you wouldliked to have gone back and deleted off of this site too!

    Talk about a sore loser!

    No wonder you can’t find a woman stupid enough to put up with you. You rave on about their religious beliefs being the obstacle but it is purely because you are a JERK!

  16. on 23 Jan 2007 at 7:31 am 16.Mattstarrs said …

    Not to mention the misquotes!
    Heres a beauty from Mushy:

    I said:
    “Pangolin has given solid reasoning for his beliefs.”

    He said I said:
    “You say someone with an imaginary friend backed up what they said with “solid evidence”, yet we all know he did not.”

    You must acknowledge that if I being a Christian lied like that all the atheists would generalise this type of deceptive misinformation to all Christians.

    Should I view atheism this way?

    So void of substance that it’s proponents must lie to try and score points in a sloppy debate?

    And how about this for an insight into the atheist world view:

    Mushy said:
    If you continue to support people to believe in imaginary friends, then you’re saying we cannot question the very thing they believe in. As long as we can’t question the very thing they believe in, they will continue to believe that there is some god somewhere telling them what to do through their stupid holy book. There is no other way to stop religious violence other than to get rid of the delusions entailed.

    Let’s break that down a little. The first sentence claims that:
    If you continue to support people to believe in imaginary friends, then you’re saying we cannot question the very thing they believe in.

    This proposition is absurd. Please note the way that atheists lie and put words in the mouths of believers. Nowhere on this site will you find a quote from any Christian that supports that statement. Christians wouldn’t even be posting on this site if they objected to your right to question what they believe.

    The next sentence says:
    As long as we can’t question the very thing they believe in, they will continue to believe that there is some god somewhere telling them what to do through their stupid holy book.

    This is an idiotic claim based on an unfounded claim made up by an atheist. Let me set your mind at rest – you atheists are not responsible for my faith. Before I was a Christian my atheist father questioned christianity and taught me about alternate theories (atheism). Since becoming a Christian I have been surrounded by atheists that have freely challenged my beliefs. No-one has ever been prevented from questioning the things I believe in.

    Still I believe.

    And then Mushy just launches into blind assault, ranting about religious violence, when he says:
    There is no other way to stop religious violence other than to get rid of the delusions entailed.

    But as I have already demonstrated with the list at the top, which was supplied by one of your own, you atheists are responsible for about 3 times as many deaths as all the other mass murders mentioned combined.

    No wonder so many religious people just switch off without even considering your arguments.

    You atheists are a dishonourable mob that don’t really care about truth or facts or reasoning. You lie and cover up to try and save yourself from losing face when it becomes apparent that you are wrong.

    All this does is reinforce to Christians that discussions with atheists will not bring any reliable answers.

  17. on 23 Jan 2007 at 11:41 am 17.Mushinronjya said …

    “You deleted the sexist, bigoted stuff off of your Myspace site when I exposed it here and then posted a denial that it existed!!!!!!”

    I have deleted nothing on my site. If you’re wondering about my post about child support, I decided to make it “friends only”, at my choice. I don’t deny that I wrote any blog. If you’d like to go over what I’ve written, I’d gladly do so.

    But you need to stop posting like a little 12 year old. It’s very annoying.

    You need to grow up a bit, and think before you post on this board with your childishness.

  18. on 23 Jan 2007 at 12:01 pm 18.Mushinronjya said …

    ” If you continue to support people to believe in imaginary friends, then you’re saying we cannot question the very thing they believe in.

    This proposition is absurd. Please note the way that atheists lie and put words in the mouths of believers. Nowhere on this site will you find a quote from any Christian that supports that statement. Christians wouldn’t even be posting on this site if they objected to your right to question what they believe.”

    You fail to understand what I’ve said. I didn’t say that a xian explicitly said, on this board, that you can’t question what they believe. It’s inferred from what I’ve written, by the standpoint taken I have expressed above. You don’t catch on very well.

    “But as I have already demonstrated with the list at the top, which was supplied by one of your own, you atheists are responsible for about 3 times as many deaths as all the other mass murders mentioned combined.”

    That is ridiculous, and anyone in their right mind would laugh at you for such a claim. How old are you? You can’t be more than 18 or so.

    “No wonder so many religious people just switch off without even considering your arguments.”

    Because they are incapable of debating.
    Atheism has won a long, long time ago.

    “You atheists are a dishonourable mob that don’t really care about truth or facts or reasoning.”

    Yea, coming from a guy that thinks there’s a god because his arm got better. Real slick there.

    “All this does is reinforce to Christians that discussions with atheists will not bring any reliable answers.”

    They bring answers, you just want to see things your way without having think think you should use logic and reasoning.

  19. on 23 Jan 2007 at 3:33 pm 19.Mattstarrs said …

    An insecure liar that considers himself intelligent but fails to deliver said:

    “That is ridiculous, and anyone in their right mind would laugh at you for such a claim. How old are you? You can’t be more than 18 or so.

    1. Dear reader, did you laugh? If not you are not in your right mind by this morons logic. That is the kind of logic you need to be an atheist.

    2. The claim is based on a simple mathematical equation that any 12 year old could perfom based on the data given at the initial post of this thread. Apparantly atheists can claim that religion is responsible for all of the problems in the world, but when they are shown convincingly that atheist too are responsible for some of those problems, the best they can do is dismiss the claim with empty rhetoric. That’s because atheism is a belief perpetuated by people that hate the truth. (I know, dear reader, that this is an outlandish claim, but I am making assumptions based on the evidence this simpleton is providing!).

    3. It would appear that one of the irrational beliefs of atheism is that a persons age is an indicator of whether or not their arguments are valid. This is a type of bigotry called “AGEISM”. It has similar dynamics to the sexist bigotry that we have heard from this atheist also. I wonder if I included some inner city street slang you would question my race also? Wanna hear something funny? I know a 12 year old black girl that can out talk me: I can beat you in a game of wits: A 12 year old black girl can easily kick your butt in a debate.

    And check this out for clutching at straws.

    I found this bizzarre rant by an atheist which I confronted him on by saying:

    You are beneath me.

    If anyone wants to differ click on Mushinronjya’s name at the top of his posts and read his ridiculous, bigoted, sexist junk that he really believes. The stuff about birth control and child support is a stunner.

    The lying atheist said:

    “I would like to see what you mean by “bigoted”, since I have no such material on my site.
    Sexist? Explain.

    Oh wait, you’re only good at making assertions, and not backing them up.”

    Now at first I thought he was merely denying that the content was sexist, but if you read it you would know that he simply could not defend that claim. So the sneaky little atheist made the content in question inaccessable to you and I and then denied that it existed. Atheists do this a lot when evidence is presented that proves that they may have a need to review their conclusions. I should have realised that Mushy is an atheist, therefore lying and decieving is better than admitting you made a mistake.

    Any way, I made a mistake cos I thought he deleted it. When you or I go to his blog site now and pull up a compendium of all blogs the one in question does not appear to us. It has been reserved for “friends only”.

    So I wrote:
    “You deleted the sexist, bigoted stuff off of your Myspace site when I exposed it here and then posted a denial that it existed!!!!!!”

    to which the dispicable atheist admitted that ater it was exposed he infact did make it inaccessable to you and I, although technically it is not deleted. Wow, talk about taking the moral high ground!!!! Check it out:

    I have deleted nothing on my site. If you’re wondering about my post about child support, I decided to make it “friends only”, at my choice. I don’t deny that I wrote any blog.

    Notice that he now admits that there was said material on the site, after previously saying “I have no such material on my site.”

    He also makes this offer:

    “If you’d like to go over what I’ve written, I’d gladly do so.”

    But the blog itself (at the time of this writing) is still off limits to those of us that may disagree. What a liar! I thought you said you would gladly go over it? The only thing I get to go over is:

    “This specific blog entry you’re trying to read is currently set to be viewable to the blog owner friends only.”

    But that’s just the way atheists protect their beliefs, isn’t it!

  20. on 23 Jan 2007 at 4:13 pm 20.Tom Fahy said …

    The Best of Both Worlds

    I think it can be safely assumed that it is in the nature of man to wonder, to be humbled by the awesome prospect of being–to live. For the most part, the typical Christian has extrapolated from the New and Old Testaments those aspects that may contribute most effectively to right-living. An example of such may include Jesus’ “Golden Rule,” which also happens to be a cornerstone of the works of Hillel and of Confucianism. This is a teaching of ethical value that may be conveyed quite simply and to great effect. In the West, the typical Christian has successfully compartmentalized those aspects of the New and Old Testaments that are of practical value from those that are largely irrelevant in our comparatively enlightened age. In this light, the impact of Christianity in the West may be perceived as benign.

    Christianity can be perceived as a method that describes the basic criteria for right-living, facilitated by rich, tapestry-like tales of ancient kings, pharaohs, carpenters and young men with dazzling, rainbow-colored jackets. On this level, Christianity serves as an integral cultural cornerstone in the West, imparting to its adherents those values which will enable them to conduct themselves in a manner which visits the least harm on the most people. There are few leaders unaware of Christianity’s ability to achieve this end.

    In so far as Christianity is able to impart these values and instill in its would-be adherents a sense of meaning, and an epistemological foundation that seeks to convey values that aim to impart a sense of ethicality, there is much to be appreciated in Christianity, regardless of its flavor.

    The threat that is often perceived of Christianity by many atheists is its efficient ability to polarize people of different faiths. But the question remains, is it Christianity which polarizes differing faiths, or the presiding interpretations of those faiths which result in polarization? All men are concerned with meaning consciously rejects theism as he feels there are better and more efficiently realizable methods with which knowledge of the world can be gathered. The atheist’s method is very often aligned with the scientific method, whereas the Christian would seek knowledge by a more explicitly spiritual method, which is seen to be at odds with science and its aims.

    But on a fundamental level, atheists and Christians alike are concerned with meaning, with immortality, with the fate of the soul, with all of those questions that were that arrived at the dawn of consciousness. Christians admire the tales of an extraordinary man that had transcended the iniquities visited upon the flesh and returned to convey to his fellow man the idea that indeed life is not in vain; that each being is not unloved; that the source from which he comes will be the great and future place to which he will return. This is rather beautiful, no? And it is largely the source of Christianity’s attraction.

    The atheist is of a similar belief: there is more to life than meets the eye; that there is a method whereby which insights into the meaning of life can be had by virtue of a scientific method. That we seek answers implies that we value life. The Christian values life and would celebrate this fact by praising and esteeming the life of Christ; by performing rituals that simulate Christ’s pursuit of meaning. His gift was hope. Perhaps Jesus had spiritual tools at his disposal that were not standard-issue. If this is the case, naturally men on earth would seek to pursue the path of righteousness that Jesus prescribed in an effort to secure those spiritual tools. It is even within the realm of possibility that many Christians may come into possession of said tools; perhaps one day science will confirm this.

    I wonder if it is wise to condemn the tools that man has at his disposal designed for the pursuit of meaning. Humankind needs meaning. Many atheists move of the reservation of faith because theirs is not a purely spiritual disposition; their disposition esteems a method that relies on matter and perceivable phenomena for insights into the meaning of life. This is a valid method. But it should not seek the invalidation of the spiritual method as its primary aim.

    I am an atheist in so far as my own experiences, spiritual and otherwise, do not derive validation from the God of the Old Testament (God here referred to as the ineffable; that which is omniscient). I don’t perceive God as a singular entity. It is probably important to emphasize that few Christians in the 21st century perceive God as a singular entity either. The historical Jesus was interested in conveying to his disciples a method of living that would enable them to remain sensitive to their surroundings, accepting, open-minded; you do not find the fire and brimstone inflections from the Old Testament in the New. And more and more, I am of the opinion that atheists should temper their debates with the same sense of acceptance and open-mindedness. It is natural for the atheist to be intolerant of the man that would exploit Christianity for an end unrelated to spirituality and right-living. But by the same token, it seems atheism has been hijacked recently to serve the ends of an unprecedented war on spirituality, rather than devoting its energies to applied science.

    There is so much about life that we do not understand. Both the Christian and atheist are keenly aware of this. And both the Christian and atheist would pursue those avenues that best enable them to enhance their understanding of the world. I don’t find much in the modern interpretation of Christianity that is intolerable. And given a short primer on atheism, I don’t think the average Christian would be hostile to atheism. They are two different methods of perception, one no less capable than the other. Each must be respected, as each is able to bear fruit and contribute to the quality of life led on earth.

    Thomas Fahy

  21. on 23 Jan 2007 at 4:26 pm 21.Mushinronjya said …

    Tom said:
    “They are two different methods of perception, one no less capable than the other.”

    Xians are less capable of understanding the world around us, since their ability to know how to go about that is faulty.

    And although people should be respected to some degree, their unjustified beliefs do not have to be.

  22. on 23 Jan 2007 at 4:39 pm 22.Mattstarrs said …

    My comment from 3:33pm is awaiting moderation. Please come back and read it.

  23. on 24 Jan 2007 at 5:16 am 23.bored said …

    this must be the most unintellectual “exchange” i’ve seen in a long time, and i have to admit i was too bored with both of you to read all the way through it.

    @mattstarrs:

    “So let’s just for a moment say that the Bible isn’t true. That means we can take number 15 off the list because it apparently isn’t true. I shouldn’t get too many arguments there from anyone that doesn’t believe in the Bible.”

    just pretending that the bible isn’t true doesnt explain why people who believe in the bible are fans of genocide. afaik the vengeful god is the god of the old testament, true, but the bible is supposed to be one complete statement and inseperable. that takes us back to the pre-flame-war original question:

    why are you a fan of a mass-murderer?

    btw: mattstar, statements like “you are beneath me” lead me to think that you misunderstood one of the more likeable concepts of the bible:

    thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    bye.

  24. on 24 Jan 2007 at 6:26 am 24.Mattstarrs said …

    You say:
    just pretending that the bible isn’t true doesnt explain why people who believe in the bible are fans of genocide. afaik the vengeful god is the god of the old testament, true, but the bible is supposed to be one complete statement and inseperable. that takes us back to the pre-flame-war original question:

    why are you a fan of a mass-murderer?

    1. I have no idea what afaik means. I am guessing it means “and for all I know”, but that does not fit grammatically, so I may be missing something in your statement.

    2. The God of the entire bible – Old and New Covenants is a God of JUSTICE.

    He says that the soul that sins shall surely die. The Bible is one complete statement of this God of Justice dealing with humanity over various dispensations.

    For we gentiles in the current dispensation this is good news. Because Christ took the penalty for our sin (death) we have the benefits of his righteousness (life). The problem is, this grace is only extended as long as you have breath. Once you die you will be judged. If you have not given your life to Christ the deal ends there, and you will be outside of the grace of God for the rest of eternity.

    The Jews have a seperate covenant with God. They are chosen by Him to bring forth the Messiah. The New Testament describes the Jewish predicament during this dispensation, that they have been blinded to the gospel until the fulness of the gentiles has come in. Then for a brief period the jewish dispensation will be resumed.

    After that the bible makes reference to another dispensation.

    3. The point of pretending that the bible wasn’t true was to demonstrate a fact that is pretty apparent to the unbiased mind.

    The list was presented as a slight against christians.
    It was presented by someone that believes that the event at number 15 never happened.
    I pointed out that if you atheists are correct, as you believe you are, the flood never happened and the biggest mass murderers on the planet were infact atheists.

    4. God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth and wiped them out. If it is true, he has the right. He created the earth to be “very good”. He created us. We sinned. We rejected Him. We refused to obey Him. The responsibility falls to us.

    If some other form of life mutated and turned the planet into a dung heap and God eradicated that life form would you complain?

    The thing is He has promised that one day he will destroy the whole lot (roll it up like a scroll) with fire. Then He will create a new heavens and a new earth.

    Then you said:
    btw: mattstar, statements like “you are beneath me” lead me to think that you misunderstood one of the more likeable concepts of the bible:

    thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Comments like “you are beneath me” don’t even begin to compare to the comments that engendered that opinion.

    I fully understand the imperative to love my neigbour as myself. I also understand that I have many faults and weaknesses. However, loving my neighbour does not forbid me from making a realistic appraisal.

    All you get is a little snapshot of my life, which is unfortunately taken from an unpleasant exchange with a highly offensive atheist.

    I think given the garbage Mushy has thrown around I have shown a good deal of restraint.

    Bye.

Trackback This Post | Subscribe to the comments through RSS Feed

Leave a Reply