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Christianity Johnson on 03 Dec 2008 12:15 am

The utter delusion of Christianity

Billy Graham jumps the shark and shows the utter delusion of Christianity as he tries to answer this question:

Where did the devil come from?

According to Graham, this is the source of Satan:

Satan hasn’t always existed; only God is eternal. At one time, the Bible indicates, Satan was one of God’s most powerful angels, created by God to do His will. But pride took hold of him, and he decided to revolt against God and put himself in charge of the whole universe

So we are to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God set out to create for himself an angel “to do His will.” But God was incompetent and Satan instead revolted against God. Why would anyone want to worship an incompetent god?

Here is what happened next according to Graham:

Satan’s revolt failed and he was cast out of heaven — but he still is at work, and we must never underestimate his power or his ability to deceive us. The Bible says he is the one “who leads the whole world astray” (Revelation 12:9).

Instead of destroying Satan and ending the problem, the incompetent God “casts Satan out of heaven.” This is incompetence on top of incompetence. And note that Satan is now more powerful than God. Satan “leads the whole world astray”. Why doesn’t God overpower Satan and lead the whole world toward good?

What is God’s response to Satan?

Yes, the devil is our foe — but listen: He is a defeated foe! By His death and resurrection Jesus Christ conquered death and Hell and Satan — and someday that victory will be complete when Christ comes again.

Jesus defeated Satan, but he didn’t finish the job, because Satan is still with us! We have to wait for Jesus to come again to finally get the job done. This is incompetence on top of incompetence on top of incompetence.

Why would anyone with a brain believe nonsense like this? The story is a complete fairy tale. Even if you choose to ignore that fact, you must admit that you are worshiping a being who stacks incompetence on top of incompetence on top of incompetence. Who would accept such a foolish “god”?

If you are a Christian who would like to break free from this sort of delusion, this video may be able to help you. As you watch it, keep in mind that Billy Graham has described the God he believes in as incompetence on top of incompetence on top of incompetence:

51 Responses to “The utter delusion of Christianity”

  1. on 03 Dec 2008 at 11:37 am 1.JAB said …

    First of all nice web site, I’m glad to see that the folks behind this site
    are giving these issues some real deep thought… I feel however that most of these issues are elementary… but I can see that they disturb you, so I’ll try to console your mind with another point of view… I am lucky enough to be born a Muslim, but I feel I have a fairly good grasp of Christian and Jewish theology… I hope to answer your questions as best as I can… (my time is generaly very limited.)

    #1 GOD created the devil.
    #2 GOD gave the angels free will…
    #3 Satan was running the show – he was the lead angel.
    #4 All creatures do the will of the LORD whether they know it or not…
    #5 GOD purposely never created a perfect creature, not a dog, cat, person, angel, etc… only HE is perfect. (Can you imagine what would happend if HE had created a perfect dog… you already have people that worship rats, cows, cats, people, etc… all are imperfect…)

    6# So when you claim…
    “But God was incompetent and Satan instead revolted against God. Why would anyone want to worship an incompetent god?” your trying to state that because GOD created satan he should be perfect… but the evidence of this universe shows that nothing is perfect – so it’s safe to assume that it’s meant to be that way…

    #7 And to be clear our view of this world / life is not like our LORDS when we get sick (we may fear death – but GOD doesn’t see it the same way, in a way, to HIM so what if 10,000 babies die today? are they lost? have they just gone up in smoke – boo-hoo – so now we cry???? NO, no folks, it’s as if they simply stepped into another nicer room… can we see them? no, but do you have to see Julius Cesar or the earths core to conclude they exist/ed? HIS ways aren’t ours, and vice versa…

    #8 You also state “Instead of destroying Satan and ending the problem, the incompetent God “casts Satan out of heaven.” This is incompetence on top of incompetence.”
    Okay let me ask you a question here on human terms… do you have children?
    Will they grow up one day and make choices? Sexual choices? Moral choices? Legal/ criminal choices? Okay so if you knew your child was to make criminal choices at 22 would you utterly destroy them at the age of 1? Think about it…
    So why may GOD not choose to destroy satan? The reason is he’s no challenge… he’s a wet paper bag useless really… but he can still be used to make spit balls… like Hitler, Nebuchadnezzar, Judas, even george w. bush they all serve a purpose in this world wether we like them or not… satan is a team mascot, and GOD is keeping score… and why? Because of HIS gift of free will! GOD actually gave it to us – and it’s the consciousness to be able to make our own choices bad or good, black or white, love or murder, That’s something we can never give… although we have learned quite well how to take this free will from each other in many ways…
    I believe I answered this as well “And note that Satan is now more powerful than God. Satan “leads the whole world astray”. Why doesn’t God overpower Satan and lead the whole world toward good?” GOD is holding the royal flush he always had been always will be… so what if the satan thinks his 4 aces are best? Let him push all his chips in …(I hope you understand the texas poker analogy).

    9# Re: “Jesus defeated Satan, but he didn’t finish the job, because Satan is still with us! We have to wait for Jesus to come again to finally get the job done. This is incompetence on top of incompetence on top of incompetence.”
    As a Muslim I/we believe in our beloved Prophet Jesus Son of Mary, But only as a Messenger of GOD, not GOD or the son of GOD… to us that’s blasphemy. We don’t worship A GOD that can be killed, or one that may need children for any reason, let alone eats and goes to the bathroom… it’s a bit too greek myth for my taste…

    But now to answer your blog “why won’t GOD heal amputees…”
    The answer is why won’t you?
    What have you done to heal amputees?
    HE can do it… and all things are easy for HIM… but this is a task for you folks, that ask these tremendous questions…
    A better question may have been “how can we heal amputees?”
    And an answer may be through science and learning, probably of the stem cell research… where they have been healing quadriplegics in Portugal of all countries for the bast 12 + years…
    As Muslims GOD tells us there is a cure for every disease except death.
    And also tells us that an hour spent in learning/ educating ourselves is better than 40 hours of prayer…
    To me that is very telling of our position on this world….
    And Peace be upon you…
    Salam!

    notes:
    AL QURAN , Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

    3:140 If misfortune touches you, [know that] similar misfortune has touched [other] people as well; for it is by turns that We apportion unto men such days [of fortune and misfortune]: and [this] to the end that God might mark out those who have attained to faith, and choose from among you such as [with their lives] bear witness to the truth [101] – since God does not love evildoers -

    3:146 And how many a prophet has had to fight [in God's cause], followed by many God-devoted men: and they did not become faint of heart for all that they had to suffer in God’s cause, and neither did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves [before the enemy], since God loves those who are patient in adversity;

    Rev 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations- 27 ‘He will rule them with an iron sceptre; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’-just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give him the morning star.

    http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm Short and easy…

  2. on 03 Dec 2008 at 12:59 pm 2.JAB said …

    i just watched the video- it was cute… catch phrases, confident selling, peer pressure, sound bytes… good work…

    but let’s take a gander at the opposite view…
    man came from a monkey….?!?!?!?!?!
    well? where’s the tail? why even in every discovery of prehistoric man can they never even suggest a tail? and why can’t our feet do what all monkeys feet do? not even close please go to a zoo… it’s almost hypnotic and the teeth it’s like comparing a fish and camel ;)
    another thing why the heck are there so many different kinds of monkeys still around ??? there’s a flaw in darwins ointment soup…

    yet somehow it’s more difficult for the average shlomo to believe that we came from an all powerful being that created adam and eve… it’s not like we can look at population growth and work our way back to the zero… it’s basic math folks, not monkeys because also their are so many different races of people… you see if this whole thing was a big mistake that started by accident… do you expect intelligent people to believe that the same accident kept happening over and over on every continent and land and different races… by these monkeys… thanks for playing…

    it’s been fun

  3. on 03 Dec 2008 at 7:26 pm 3.ZeusIsTheTruegod said …

    JAB, good job on totally debunking evolution with your two paragraphs. Now they really need to find a new secular explanation for our being here, huh? /sarcasm

    You really need to spend some time reading up on evolution because you completely misrepresented even the basic ideas of the theory. By the way, the closest living relative existing today for man is the chimpanzee, that does not have a tail either. *hint* Notice I said closest living relative, meaning that we actually didn’t descend from chimpanzees, we merely have a common ancestor.

    There is ALOT of genetic evidence that evolution IS true, along with geologic. Everything you said(i.e. different races of people on different continents) is actually in support of evolution.

    If we all came from the same two people as you suggest, and evolution is not true, as you also suggest, then it would stand that EVERY PERSON would be the SAME RACE.

    Also, please learn a little bit of grammar and punctuation. Reading through your post is an exercise in frustration. You’d be surprised what capitalizing the first letter in your sentence and proper punctuation does for the readability of your posts.

  4. on 03 Dec 2008 at 10:11 pm 4.the loved one said …

    jab,

    You are certainly long winded in your attempt to explain why god would create Satan and have no power to control him, but you really do a good job of explaining NOTHING.

  5. on 03 Dec 2008 at 10:30 pm 5.the loved one said …

    also to jab,
    why do you consider yourself “lucky” to be “born a muslim”?

    a) were you really a muslim from birth? is that what makes a muslim?

    b) if it was luck does this meant that god is rolling the dice and the “lucky” ones are born into the “right” religions?

    c) is god omnipotent? if so, why wouldn’t he stop satan from leading his children astray? (your analogue to a normal human family is utterly pointless)

    d) you said >”so what if 10,000 babies die today? are they lost? have they just gone up in smoke – boo-hoo – so now we cry???? NO, no folks, it’s as if they simply stepped into another nicer room.”
    to which I ask: if you truly believe this then what is stopping you from
    killing babies? don’t you want them to be in a nicer room? by your (insane) logic, it is unethical NOT to kill babies.

    >”but do you have to see Julius Cesar or the earths core to conclude they exist/ed?”
    -No, we have EVIDENCE for both of those things. (which is why we no longer believe in an underworld or that the earth is flat, etc – it’s called science)
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html
    One does NOT need evidence to conclude that something does not exist. Otherwise, what would your evidence that Zeus or Poseidon do not exist? Or any other mythical creatures for that matter?

    >”But now to answer your blog “why won’t GOD heal amputees…”
    The answer is why won’t you?”

    uh, actually… that’s not an answer, that’s a childish response to a question you cannot answer. better ‘luck’ next time…

  6. on 04 Dec 2008 at 4:41 am 6.Completely Offended said …

    JAB, is it? Well, “JAB,” I was reading your comment and I found something that you said completely and utterly disgusting, and contradicts with what it says in the bible. First off, you said that many villainous people served purpose in this world as a “team mascot,” so that people could make their own decisions on what’s good or what’s bad. So are you saying that 6 million Jews died because Hitler was a team mascot? That it took 6 million lives for people to realize what was good and what wasn’t? I’m an agnostic and I’m Jewish, and I have ancestors who died in the holocaust, apparently so that a mascot could help people decide their morals. And, you said that god couldn’t care less if 10,000 babies died. Ouch. What a grotesque god. I mean, he has a life plan for everyone, doesn’t he? Why would he just want to throw those poor, innocent babies lives out the door when they didn’t even get a chance to actually live life to the fullest? And, when you say the thing about your children growing up and making “sexual choices,” I’m just going to assume you mean having sex before marriage. Of course that’s what you’re talking about, that would be disgusting! I mean, imagine, people giving in to natural needs and instincts. Ugh, how could people be so vile?

  7. on 04 Dec 2008 at 5:21 am 7.JAB said …

    zues i’m sorry that my attempt at answering the question had became an “Exercise in Frustration” due to my grammar and punctuation… truth be told i never intended to answer the question in the first place, i just laughed it (the blogg) off as an oddity / or some childish curiousity that seemed to have gotten the best of the writer. And i certainly never intended to write out so much…

    so now i’ll take the easy road – so that i don’t harm your sensibilities… i’ll just plagerize (copy and paste the following comments)

    http://www.allaboutscience.org/evolution-of-man.htm

    Additionally, the evolution of man from ape-like ancestors is often argued on the grounds of comparative anatomy within the fossil record. Yet, the fossil record indicates more stability in the forms of species than slow or even drastic changes, which would indicate intermediate stages between modern species. The “missing links” are missing. And unfortunately, the field of paleoanthropology has been riddled with fraudulent claims of finding the missing link between humans and primates, to the extent that fragments of human skeletons have been combined with other species such as pigs and apes and passed off as legitimate. Although genetic variability is seen across all peoples, the process of natural selection leading to speciation is disputed. Research challenging the accepted paradigm continues to surface raising significant questions about the certainty of evolution as the origin of man.

    Evolution Of Man – The Scrutiny
    The theory concerning the evolution of man is under increased scrutiny due to the persistence of gaps in the fossil record, the inability to demonstrate “life-or-death” determining advantageous genetic mutations, and the lack of experiments or observations to truly confirm the evidence for speciation. Overall, the evolution of man pervades as the accepted paradigm on the origin of man within the scientific community. This is not because it has been proven scientifically, but because alternative viewpoints bring with them metaphysical implications which go against the modern naturalistic paradigm. Nevertheless, a closer examination of the evidence reveals evolution to be increasingly less scientific and more reliant upon beliefs, not proof.

    jab speaking now – i do believe in “mutations” if that’s what you want to call them, and i believe they happen because of diet and geography.
    one thing that had facinated me years ago – was black americans. if you look at thier skulls or shapes of their head they are consistantly different than those of africans… and that seemed to have taken place in 200 years not the “millions of years of evolution” that scientists love to throw around…

    another thing about the evolution theory, some people seem to believe just because an “ameaba” (if i remember the name correctly) is single celled then it can just appear… where does this organism come from? so because it’s simple celled that’s an answer to origin? hahaaha

    also,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

    “Since the time of Carolus Linnaeus, scientists have considered the great apes to be the closest relatives of human beings because they look very similar. In the 19th century, they speculated that the closest living relatives of humans are chimpanzees. Based on the natural range of these creatures, they surmised that humans share a common ancestor with other African great apes and that fossils of these ancestors would be found in Africa. It is now accepted by virtually all biologists that humans are not only similar to the great apes but, in fact, are great apes.”

    so “THEY SPECULATED THAT THE CLOSEST LIVING RELATIVES OF HUMANS ARE CHIMPANZEES”, that’s one hell of a speculation…. so example “it must be a good book just look at the cover….” hahahah

  8. on 04 Dec 2008 at 5:56 am 8.JAB said …

    now onto “loved one”… what the hell did i get myself into… i just wanted to go shopping… oh well…

    okay loved one, i’m going to assume your an american, or a fan of the yankees, or heck a Kennedy… Now do you feel lucky to be an american? a yankee? a Kennedy?
    same here. wierd huh?

    re: c) GOD is omnipotent…
    why should the king kill his executioner, or tax agent… etc… they’re both in a sense bad, but they are doing a job… wether we get it or not…

    think of it as a sort of play with actors etc… it’s not that big a deal… :)

    re: d) my insane logic? “it is unethical NOT to kill babies.” hahah your nuts… that’s not my part in this, just like it’s not your part to do a damn thing about it either way (sadly)

    plus you missed my point completely, i’m trying to explain (and it may be hard to swallow) that although Hitler killed 6 million jews (which i honestly dont believe) that doesn’t change their place in GODS HAND – they are still right there…
    it’s an american song for goodness sake “HE’S got the whole world – in his hand…” but it’s real.
    don’t you guys understad the difference? HE has HIS view and we have ours, HE is the fail safe, in case bush goes nuts and nukes france the french go to GOD and we get assessed for our individual roles.
    America makes great tv shows and commercials but let’s wake up and at least look at the possibility that all of this ( this country, your children, parents, love, feelings, morals…) it’s for some reason not just effects of a big bang accident… put down the american idol for 10 mins.
    there is a reason for everything that happens and that is the will of GOD.

    and lastly who has the sample of earth’s core, have you seen it? is it blue? pink? salty? who’s got it??? oooh it’s a hypothesis okay just don’t be so liberal with the word of “Evidence” so people can respect your comments later…

  9. on 04 Dec 2008 at 5:58 am 9.JAB said …

    how was my “luck” this time?? :)

  10. on 04 Dec 2008 at 7:04 am 10.JAB said …

    offended – pitched the next ball, i go in for a swing.
    (i wish i had that program that types when i speak this is a pain in the kisser…)

    i think i answered a few points above already so i’m getting hungry, and it’s late, got to get out there and kill me a chimp for dinner… hahaa

    “So are you saying that 6 million Jews died because Hitler was a team mascot? That it took 6 million lives for people to realize what was good and what wasn’t? I’m an agnostic and I’m Jewish, and I have ancestors who died in the holocaust, apparently so that a mascot could help people decide their morals.”

    honey, a whole hell of alot more people died in that w.war II then just 6 million jews. last i read it was between 200-300 million people on all sides.
    but you guys are very good at working that media… oh well, i know this already…

    by the way by my unfounded estimates maybe 10 billion people have already died and many horribly…
    so have we decided yet? have we made our moral choices yet? are people still hurting and killing like it’s a fashion statement?
    have we stopped sinning or being immoral?
    then the show must go on… the band still plays…

    http://pastoralthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/04/servant-of-lord-isaiah-421-9.html
    re: hitler, satan, judas, other tools – servants…

    He is “My Servant” or slave…
    “My Servant” is a designation given for several of Israel’s faithful spiritual leaders over the preceding centuries: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Job, and Zerubbabel. The designation would be used a century and a half later even to refer to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylonia, whom God used to invade Judah as His instrument of judgment in 586 B.C.

    and “you say the thing about your children growing up and making “sexual choices,” I’m just going to assume you mean having sex before marriage. Of course that’s what you’re talking about, that would be disgusting! I mean, imagine, people giving in to natural needs and instincts. Ugh, how could people be so vile?”
    hahaha,
    i actually meant gays, pedopiles, necrophilia, etc… but it’s funny when your a bigot – i should know… by the way you better be wearing your viel when your typing to me … hhaahaha (sarcasim)

    also “And, you said that GOD couldn’t care less if 10,000 babies died. Ouch. What a grotesque GOD.”

    0VER 1 MILLION BABIES DIED in iraq during the first gulf war and containment what the hell did you do?? tv, frozen dinner, cheese puffs – good for you :)
    your probably like Marie Antoinette just let them eat cake… ay’ Marie?
    don’t worry GOD isn’t waiting for you… GOD will pass HIS JUDGEMENT and he’s never misplaced anyone, but when your time is up – it’s up…

    “A hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have received and am still receiving…”
    -A. Einstein

    how you like these apples?

    hahahaha
    - JAB

  11. on 04 Dec 2008 at 7:08 am 11.JAB said …

    how you like these apples?

    if you like apples you must be a muslim – okay let’s go… who wants to argue now? hahahaha

    - JAB

  12. on 04 Dec 2008 at 8:54 am 12.ano said …

    Bipin Shroff (VAISHVIK MANAVVAD): How I became the Secular Humanist from the Muslim Fundamentalist !

    http://bipinshroff.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-i-became-secular-humanist-from.html

  13. on 04 Dec 2008 at 10:47 am 13.JAB said …

    Hey ano that’s a good one but what about these 4-5 folks?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_converts_to_Islam

    and here’s a great video from a scientist that converted…

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=80c_1192506167

  14. on 04 Dec 2008 at 11:13 pm 14.the loved one said …

    okay jab,

    you did a great job of completely ignoring the questions, as well as painting yourself as a complete asshole.

    >”although Hitler killed 6 million jews (which i honestly dont believe)”

    okay, so you deny the holocaust. you’re really showing your colors.

    >”that doesn’t change their place in GODS HAND – they are still right there…”

    where? you are lying. those people are dead. gone.

    >”okay loved one, i’m going to assume your an american, or a fan of the yankees, or heck a Kennedy… Now do you feel lucky to be an american? a yankee? a Kennedy?

    nope. every single one of your assumptions is wrong. just goes to show..

    >”it’s an american song for goodness sake “HE’S got the whole world – in his hand…” but it’s real.”

    point?

    >”think of it as a sort of play with actors etc… it’s not that big a deal… :)”

    no wonder people who are brainwashed by religion are so violent and so dangerous. it’s this mindset that makes it so easy to kill those who don’t think the same way.

    please say something intelligent. please try to make a point that doesn’t rely on belief in fairy tales to make sense to somebody outside of your bubble of delusion. it makes it easier to communicate that way. (imagine for a moment that your friend is convinced that he speaks with dolphins. if he started speaking to you in dolphin speak, it probably wouldn’t make sense either (whether you believe him or not))

  15. on 05 Dec 2008 at 8:07 am 15.Completely Offended said …

    Listen JAB, first off, Albert Einstein was agnostic and Jewish. Don’t think that you can actually use smart people to back up your beliefs. And, don’t call me “honey.” When you use that phrase, it makes you sound like you have no idea what talking about, but are just using it to make it seem like you do. First off, 11 million people total died in the holocaust (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_died_in_the_Holocaust). 6 million were Jews. People still haven’t learned. When I visited Chicago there were anti-semites protesting outside the Mueseum of Modern Art. I told someone I was Jewish, they told me to get the hell out. Someone once said “you’re just a Jew; what would you know?” to me. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Of course, you believe that gays shouldn’t have the same rights as straight people, right? So if you met the love of your life and you were sick, imagine if everyone said that they couldn’t visit you in the hospital.

    “What have you been doing?” You asked. And I shall tell. I’ve been traveling to third world countries and volunteering to build hospitals and help out local families. I’ve also been traveling to Israel to help them out. So tell me, what are you doing?

  16. on 05 Dec 2008 at 8:14 am 16.Completely Offended said …

    Quotes by Albert Einstein. Oh, and in order to like these apples, you have to be understandable and educated.. Sorry:

    “I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his [sic] creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious ourselves.”

    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

    “I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

    “I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.”

    “If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”

  17. on 05 Dec 2008 at 2:01 pm 17.Hermes said …

    Facts don’t matter to the ignorant or the insane.

  18. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:05 am 18.JAB said …

    this is not spam

  19. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:05 am 19.JAB said …

    oh its working

  20. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:07 am 20.JAB said …

    Who’s facts herpes?
    And yes i’m 13 – insane and with the grammar to match…

    I just wish i had the time to really do this right, but i’ve got hair to grow…in funny places & I can’t explain the philosophy of the world to a wall(s)

    What do I do? I go to school, every day day of my life!

    and back to my Honey… notice earlier i said

    “Honey, a whole hell of alot more people died in that w.war II then just 6 million jews. last i read it was between 200-300 million people on all sides.
    but you guys are very good at working that media… oh well, i know this already…”

    And how do you respond??… like well trained (programed) Seal
    “First off, 11 million people total died in the holocaust (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_died_in_the_Holocaust). 6 million were Jews. People still haven’t learned.”

    I Never Said Holocaust. That was all you, that’s what you hear that’s only what you focus on…
    Why sadly because you and yours believe that we non-jews are goyim

    for those that don’t understand
    “3. A word used by some Jews to refer to Gentiles (non-Jews). The word can have derogatory connotations, such as the word “black” when used to refer to a persons of African descent. It can be neutral or negative depending on the context and the intent of the speaker.”

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goy

    It’s plainly calling people Nigers ask an honest jew friend and they’ll tell you…

    Well to answer your claims let me use your source against you –
    How many people died because of World War 2?

  21. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:10 am 21.JAB said …

    Answer
    Some sources give a figure of 72 million dead, which includes those who perished as a result of famines caused by World War 2. The lowest estimate that I’ve seen anywhere is 50 million dead.
    Joncey
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_died_because_of_World_War_2&alreadyAsked=1&rtitle=How_many_died_in_wwii

    Math isn’t my strong suit in school either, is this closer to 6 million or 11 million people… you tell me?

    Don’t like that answer? i still “have no idea” what i’m talking about???
    okay then, here, try this apple Eve -
    Firt Paragraph
    “Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed, making it the deadliest conflict in human history.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WW_2

    Moral of the story everyone counts. Not just jews.

  22. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:12 am 22.JAB said …

    Brings me to my next point.
    Who isssss a JEW?

    According to the simplest definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is a Jew by birth, or becomes one through religious conversion. However, there are differences of opinion among the various branches of Judaism in the application of this definition…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

    So your an Aethist of some calibur so your not a JEW. JEW =/= Aethist

    Also I’ll put it this way, being Jewish is actually being an adherent of this ancient religion it’s not a race, no matter how badly you twist and turn it…

    For example my life-long friend Shamir born in “present-day israel” his family and roots trace back at least 600-700+ years, they’ve always referred to themselves as Jewish Palestinians, well a few years ago – by the grace of GOD he and his immediate family converted to Islam, they are now Muslim Palestinians, it’s that simple – no circular logic or nothing… now he’s Samir.

  23. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:12 am 23.JAB said …

    And about gays, frankly I don’t care for them.
    I personally view them as parasitic in nature.
    (think like a scientist you know you want too…)
    they can’t have children so the only way they can multiply is by infecting the minds of the seemingly normal non-gays.

    Why esle do i dislike them?
    because they just made a CHOICE – a SEXUAL CHOICE, and every scientist in the world belives they are seemingly wired the same way we are so it’s not an issue of disease or even mutation. It’s simply a choice, like when a child molester chooses to molest, or a necropheliac choses to screw the dead.
    It’s again a choice, like arson. I won’t give the the same respect to them, as someone that was born black, blue, polka-dot, or asian that was a miracle of GODS CREATION not a choice I hope your old enough to understand all this.
    (here’s another fun choice made by a consenting adult, that probably really loved and cared deeply for this sheep)
    Man walks free after sheep refuses to testify…
    Monday, July 30, 2007
    http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=59184&in_page_id=2

    re: Einstien here’s what he personally thought of you…
    “He is reported to have said in a conversation with Hubertus, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”[57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#cite_note-111

    In short he says come up with your own conclusion Honey! I did, now you give it a shot…

    “The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery — even if mixed with fear — that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man… I am satisfied with the mystery of life’s eternity and with a knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence — as well as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.” – A. Einstein

    So he believes that this existance is made of the “most radiant beauty…” and “marvelous structure of existence” kind a like the work of an Architectural Genius… funny ain’t it?

    - http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm

    And as for what i’ve been doing… i’ve been getting fat and stupid eating pizza, and cookies early into the morning – whilest I try reasoning with brick walls…
    :)
    but there is still a kernal of enjoyement for me… it’s like chess of the mind – now it’s your turns.

  24. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:14 am 24.JAB said …

    Only for the brave of heart…

    Now I really hate recommending this but when i was younger and had my crisis of conscious about GOD one of the more interesting things that i did was to try to prove to myself wether or not he was real… so I looked in the other direction. I studied evil, the devil, and various demons, rituals, etc… I learned an awful lot, believe it or not most of the info is already in the library or online waiting for you…
    So my hypothesis was if all this evil and darkness surrounding us is so plentiful then their must be the opposite as well, and sure enough i’ve seen many, many miracles happen too!

    (kind’a wonder now, have you guys never witnessed a miracle?? have you been so blocked off that you simply never see anything??)

    In short, evil is all quite real. I never tried to conjure up anything but i met people that were eye witnesses to demon possession etc…

    this below is just a curiosity i don’t know what the heck really happened – but it looked very unnatural…
    later kids!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxjWRPnm5YY

  25. on 07 Dec 2008 at 10:41 am 25.JAB said …

    Lebanese girl with crystal tears

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elivMsS8bl0&NR=1

    Saudi Girl tears stones!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ6nTDIV_jw&feature=related

  26. on 07 Dec 2008 at 12:37 pm 26.Anonymous said …

    JAB: “this is not spam”

    …and a bowl movement commences for nearly a dozen posts.

    JAB, do you think anyone is looking at your posts now?

  27. on 07 Dec 2008 at 6:21 pm 27.the loved one said …

    haha, so the truth comes out.
    the videos have told me much more about you than your age (I have met some damn smart 13 year old kids, honey). it really shows how easily you fall for scams and mysterious dancing on a soccer field – not to mention the multitude of religious delusions.
    you can find countless statues of the virgin mary crying, too. why don’t you believe in those scams? or crop circles, UFO stories, etc, etc.. people putting rocks in their poor children’s eyes and then filming them popping out. wow. you never convinced me that you were very bright, but now you’ve really sealed the deal. nice work.

  28. on 09 Dec 2008 at 1:16 am 28.Alastair said …

    JAB has some good points. Even a half-brained idiot knows that logically there is more advantage of believing in a good than not. It’s not that hard to comprehend. Also those who say that religion hinders progress are quite mistaken. Well, I take that back. When religion is separated from other facets of society, and when people genuinely act morally, according to their religion, there should be no problem. I understand what many atheist are saying. A lot of politicians are pushing their religion onto others, and I don’t like that at all, as many will agree. However, you must accept that logically believing in a good is better than not. Think about it. If you don’t believe in God, and he does not exist, then you loose nothing. If however you do believe in God, and he does no exist, then really what did you loose? Still nothing. After all, don’t most Christians, and Muslims have good moral characters, just like the rest of you? You can disagree with that statement, but from my personal experience, religious people are very nice. Then what if you don’t believe in God, but he does exist? The you loose something very important: Eternal life. On the other hand, if you do believe in God, and he does exist, then you will gain eternal life. Now the argument is that there is no proof of a God. However there is no proof that God is nonexistent either. There is an equal possibility of a god existing in any shape or form, than a god not existing. Under these assumptions, you should want to believe in a god. Any god, pick something. Another argument is that religion directly opposes science. I don’t believe that this is true. I am a believer, but at the same time I am an evolutionist. Science does not hinder my belief in God. The field of Physics, and of mathematics does not contradict my faith. Things like sex also do not scare me. A joke I like to make is that God said “Be fruitful and multiply.” To me that just means that God loves Sex and Mathematics. I’m 17 and I am an Engineering Major at Purdue. You can’t tell me that I am uneducated. And seriously those who chose to tell people of the marvelous benefits of Atheism, please don’t do as you claim that the Religious portion of the world does. Don’t try to force your views onto others by ridicule or other devices that are usually used to get people to feel shame for their lack of belief. If you really want to push for your point, then just show people logically why you are correct, and I’m sure that the reasonable people will see your point.

  29. on 09 Dec 2008 at 8:41 am 29.the loved one said …

    alastair, hear me out.

    >”Even a half-brained idiot knows that logically there is more advantage of believing in a good than not.”

    believing in a good? what does that even mean? I thought it was a typo, but you wrote it twice. what does that mean?

    >”Also those who say that religion hinders progress are quite mistaken. Well, I take that back.”

    good idea.

    >”When religion is separated from other facets of society…”

    (which is totally impossible as religion comes out of society. like separating the language or music from its culture. it is unfortunately integrated.)

    >”…and when people genuinely act morally, according to their religion, there should be no problem.”

    well, the problem is that the major religions offer a lot of information that is not moral. look no further than the old testament which condones death by stoning of apostates, adulterers and homosexuals. is that moral behavior?

    >”You can disagree with that statement, but from my personal experience, religious people are very nice.”

    there are ‘nice’ alien abductees and holocaust deniers. there are ‘friendly’ child molesters and gang members. that’s not the point. it is unethical to spread misinformation. “knowledge” that can not be verified is such and is intrinsically dangerous. hence “Death to apostates!”

    >”There is an equal possibility of a god existing in any shape or form, than a god not existing.”

    this is a common mistake. it is absolutely false. think about it.
    if I assert that there is a race of tiny men that live under my house who mine for diamonds and cinnamon bark 28 miles below the earth’s surface, are the chances of that NOT being so 50/50?
    there you have it. the same goes for ANY assertion that lacks evidence. millions of people used to believe that Zeus existed. is there a 50% chance that he still does? if so, why does less than .0000001% of the earth’s population truly believe his existence? did it take evidence to disprove he existed? NO. there’s the same amount of evidence for his existence as there is of any other God.

    the math begins to look more like the lottery once you begin to account for the millions of gods. and there have been millions throughout the ages.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZVRpqm0Cl0

    >”Under these assumptions, you should want to believe in a god. Any god, pick something.”

    okay, so I believe in them all. I guess I’m covered then.

    >”Another argument is that religion directly opposes science. I don’t believe that this is true.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/apr/22/highereducation.uk5

    >”I am a believer, but at the same time I am an evolutionist.”

    many people practice religions that do not allow that freedom. what about those people? millions of them who will be educating the future generations?

    >”Science does not hinder my belief in God.”

    good thing you didn’t live in a time when God thought the world was round or that witches caused disease and should be burned.
    now the rest of us are still trying to contend with those powerful religious forces trying to prevent civil rights for gays, proper education of biology (evolution) in schools, stem cell research…

    >”I’m sure that the reasonable people will see your point.”

    I agree. Sadly, we seem to be a small minority.

  30. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:28 pm 30.Alastair said …

    Well. I’m surprised. What I was trying to say is that if you really aren’t religious, you should respect others attempt to “win the lottery,” as you seem to imply. Then lets really look at the things that you wrote.

    “well, the problem is that the major religions offer a lot of information that is not moral. look no further than the old testament which condones death by stoning of apostates, adulterers and homosexuals. is that moral behavior?”

    Now what do you think is wrong with this statement?
    By definition, murder is wrong. However what you are describing is what is known as the elimination of undesirables from society. We do this all the time, but we don’t order capital punishment, unless the crime is treason, which is extremely rare, or murder. Let’s start with the first. Apostate. Do you know what that is?

  31. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:29 pm 31.Alastair said …

    1. One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to
    which he before adhered; esp., one who has forsaken his
    religion for another; a pervert; a renegade.

    This is from Webster’s dictionary. Let’s leave the last two parts of it out (i.e. pervert/renegade), just for fun. In an ancient society. This would be a problem. Because diversity was not as appreciated as it is today, it was important that the society be united. How could you trust a man or woman, who would betray the perceived God of the day. Would he betray the nation next? Maybe, maybe not. Still the fact remains that this person cannot be trusted. In today’s society you expect people to be trustworthy, right? Then why would you expect otherwise in the past. You see, betraying your faith in ancient times would be the same thing as betraying the nation. I hope that you agree that when a person turns against his nation, he should not be allowed to live. Now, today we have separation of church and state, so the religious issue is not as big.

  32. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:30 pm 32.Alastair said …

    The same thing goes for adulterers. How can you expect a man or woman who is secretly unfaithful to his/her spouse to be faithful to the nation. You can’t. A good example of this, at least in America is former President Bill Clinton. How could we trust a man who his own wife could not trust? How could we trust a man who lied under oath? You can’t. You see, in a primitive society, an untrustworthy person is a hindrance to the whole. Putting that person in prison is not cost effective either. Now for the most delicate of subjects. Homosexuals. Do I believe that they should be allowed to marry? Yes, I’m sure that most people, save the most extremists, agree with me. Why? Well, all people should be allowed to experience love, not just straight people. However, do I believe that homosexuals, as couples, are on the same level as straight couples? No, it’s simple straight couple can produce children, homosexual couples cannot. However,

  33. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:31 pm 33.Alastair said …

    I would agree that many homosexual couples adopt children. Why? It is much better to grow up with any parents than no parents whatsoever. Plus, I’m quite sure that homosexual parents would be just as caring as straight parents. Why not? Now the reason that homosexuals were not wanted in the past is simple. Civilizations need new people to replace those that die. Replacement of the parents needed much more than just two children per couple. Let’s face it medicine was not as advanced as it is now. In a sense, homosexuals were viewed as parasites, and with good reason. A person who takes up resources, yet produces nothing is a parasite. I would never agree with these viewpoints today, but you can certainly see the reason to why these rules were developed. It’s was not considered intolerance. It was a need for society to move forward.

  34. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:32 pm 34.Alastair said …

    “many people practice religions that do not allow that freedom. what about those people? millions of them who will be educating the future generations?”

    My religion does not allow for that freedom. I chose to act of my own free will. What I think is technically inconsistent with my religion. However, I don’t believe that all of the bible should be read literally. I choose to act on what my brain tells me to do. I am not restricted by my religion. Those who use religion as an excuse for something are those that are ignorant. Even without religion, I assure you that people like this would be in the same state.

  35. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:32 pm 35.Alastair said …

    “good thing you didn’t live in a time when God thought the world was round or that witches caused disease and should be burned.
    now the rest of us are still trying to contend with those powerful religious forces trying to prevent civil rights for gays, proper education of biology (evolution) in schools, stem cell research…”

    I’ll assume that you meant that people thought the the earth was flat. This has never been true. For the longest time people have known that the earth was spherical in shape. The shadow of the earth on the moon, the horizon as a ship sails away, and countless other things. Men has never assumed that the earth was flat. Witches, well, I have never read of witches in the bible, so I’ll assume that that was a joke, or that you were referencing the ignorance of people in the middle ages. You see those kinds of things are from superstition, not religion. Civil right for gays? Like I mentioned before, most people are not against gay civil rights. Proper education in biology? I believe that people already teach biology in schools. I assure you that “Intelligent Design” will never pass for science for the simple fact that the Bible is not a text book. As for stem cell research, well, I love the idea. I think that most people think that it is a beneficial thing.

  36. on 10 Dec 2008 at 8:33 pm 36.Alastair said …

    Again, I don’t want to push my religion on you, or anyone else. To me, it just makes sense that you would believe in something. By the way people living underneath your house has a definite test for proof. Let me then raise a philosophical question. How are you sure that this is what the real world is? It sounds insane, but when I said that there is an equal possibility of a god existing than not, I meant it. You see, it is common knowledge among all people who know the least bit of mathematics that all things in the world can be expressed in numerical values. And it is common knowledge among those who know about computers, (I assume that you do) that they are classified as Turing machines. That means, that given enough time, they can calculate anything given to them in the proper parameters. This I hope you agree with, since I assume that you are an educated person. Given those two facts. You can therefore only prove one thing in this so called universe. You exist. “I think therefore I am.” Other than that there is little that you can prove. Once you realize this you stop being so conceited, and realize that maybe there is something else out there. You have no proof of the existence of the rest of the universe. In the same way, I have no proof that the rest of the universe does not exist. So you see why my argument for a the existence of a God makes sense. Whether you like it or not. Your knowledge of the universe or anything in it is as limited as mine. We all understand how our perceived universe “works,” but we don’t understand what the parameters are. Does it exist as the superior reality, or is it a simulation of another? You have no idea, which is why I again tell you that you have no idea whether there is a God or not. I respect your arguments. It seems that you are a little more clever than the average person. Still, you fail to realize that you know nothing, just like the rest of us. Once you realize you know nothing, you might become a little smarter than those who claim knowledge.

  37. on 10 Dec 2008 at 9:46 pm 37.Hermes said …

    If you’re going to write that much, why not post it to the forums?

  38. on 10 Dec 2008 at 10:36 pm 38.ActualChristian said …

    I like how Jab put it in his first remark, would you really kill your child at age 1 because it might do something bad? And about free will, how man of you here are fathers or mothers? If you ar one think about this,do you love your child/children when they obey you, not because they have to, but because they love? Imagine this: Your son’s/daughter’s room is a mess, you ask him/her to clean up, instead of being all grumpy and cleaning because they know they have to, they say ‘okay’ in a, maybe not happy voice, but good mood kinda’ voice. Or if you had some robot that was programmed to do what you say, not as touching is it? Now he didn’t give us free will to follow him and do what he wants to make himself feel happy,he gave it also as a gift.

  39. on 10 Dec 2008 at 10:45 pm 39.the loved one said …

    alastair,

    thank you for your clear and insightful responses to my questions. I’m so used to questions being dodged and ignored outright that it is a refreshing change to have some thoughtful answers here. you are clearly an intelligent person. I do however have a few minor points to make and then I’ll respond to a few of your ideas (especially in your last comment).

    >”I’ll assume that you meant that people thought the the earth was flat. This has never been true. For the longest time people have known that the earth was spherical in shape.”

    apparently there is a 50% chance that the earth is flat – by your math – (simply because thousands of people believe it and because they have found a loophole in reason that allows this belief). talk to a few of the true believers on their board. it’s simply astounding… you may learn something about the human brain.**

    http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
    http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

    **are you a flat earth ‘agnostic’ or a flat earth ‘athiest’?

    >”By the way people living underneath your house has a definite test for proof. Let me then raise a philosophical question.”

    oh, I forgot to mention that this highly intelligent race of people is too small (sub atomic) for any scientific equipment to see at this point in time.

    >”Still, you fail to realize that you know nothing, just like the rest of us.”

    no, I freely admit I know nothing. honestly I’m usually the first to admit that my comprehension of my model of the universe is painfully incomplete (but I’m okay with that, yet my curiosity abounds)

    >”It sounds insane, but when I said that there is an equal possibility of a god existing than not, I meant it.”

    than the same would go for ANY mythological creature or fictional character (as long as there’s some loophole that prevents proof of its existense). let’s say santa’s residence is in an impossible to find ice cave in the harshest, uncharted territories of the north pole (or simply, “it’s invisible”). would you really say there’s a 50% chance that santa claus exists?

    >”You can therefore only prove one thing in this so called universe. You exist. “I think therefore I am.” ”

    actually, one can never truly prove one’s existence. thinking is not proof. as an atheist, this is one of the few true “beliefs” that I must accept as a foundation for the rest of reality. therefore I’m pretty sure I exist and interact with a concrete reality, but since there is no way to prove it, I believe it’s true in order to avoid the torture of the endless loop of solipsism.
    much in the same way, humans don’t have to fully understand the concept of zero (we don’t) to build an astounding (and very useful) system of mathematics based on it.
    my point here is that while it is true that at some fundamental level there is a need to “believe”, it would be wise to keep the number of beliefs to a minimum. this is indeed the role of science! and the very reason for its success in explaining our universe over other methods.

    to clarify: the fact that I cannot prove that I actually exist, does *not* mean that within my simulation of ‘reality’ that *nothing* exists. even if reality is merely a simulation of some sort, there is clearly a lot we have gathered about its laws and fabric (although we still don’t know anything!), but to turn away from our methodology of understanding this ‘reality’ would be rather pointless.
    So although I’ll gladly admit that there are endless possibilities of what *might* exist beyond our perception – or within it, it is absolute folly to accept any as truth without evidence. pick up any book on conspiracy theories to see what happens when you abandon rational, evidence-based thinking. it’s a dangerous way to go. at some point it can lead people to extreme acts of violence (flying planes into buildings comes to mind) in the name of said beliefs.

  40. on 11 Dec 2008 at 12:54 am 40.ActualChristian said …

    So what are you trying to say loved one?

  41. on 11 Dec 2008 at 2:15 am 41.the loved one said …

    “actual”,

    it was a response to alastair. it will be clear to you if you read the comments in chronological order.

    what are -you- trying to say? I couldn’t make heads or tails out of your remarks about parenting and free will. seems like you oversimplify the matter to the point of evaporating it entirely. personally I don’t think free will exists, but to each his own.

  42. on 11 Dec 2008 at 5:36 am 42.JAB said …

    Great responses Alastair!

    I do disagree with your view on acceptance of gays, but other than that we are solid.
    Just a quick reminder about them – it is their choice, their free will…
    But another simple reason “marriage” is not a good solution for them is that this particular word is taken and it already stands for something…
    hence the “sanctity of marriage”

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sanctity

    also they took words like rainbow and gay and infected them with their backwardness, they can make up some words… like “Engay” or “Homorriage”
    …just a thought…

    but anyways I don’t feel like getting to deep tonight… so here’s a pic for everyones enjoyment – and i bet you can already guess my comment…

    http://www.myspacetuning.com/gfx/funny_pics/animals/blowing_ape.jpg

  43. on 11 Dec 2008 at 5:39 am 43.JAB said …

    how about “where’s my uncle?”

    …or “first this – then the free-world!”

  44. on 11 Dec 2008 at 9:38 am 44.loved one said …

    wow jab,

    you’re doing wonders to promote yourself as an intelligent human being. I know you’re just a kid, but do you really have to act like one?

    anyhow, thought you might enjoy this article
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa

    “Just a quick reminder about them – it is their choice, their free will…”

    so? it’s your choice to be a hate spewing, religious ass! whether it’s choice or genetic who cares? I thought you were here advocating that people be allowed to practice as they please. make up your mind. please realize that when you talk about the ‘other’, when you divide humanity into us and them, you’re asking for trouble. you sound just as bad as those who talk about as muslims as though they’re all terrorists.

    I thought allistair’s statements about homosexuality, while not exactly PC, were fairly accurate and show a much more mature and compassionate view of the matter. the way you discuss it, you end up sounding like a repressed kid with way too much religion and hate shoved down his throat.

    so far you’ve done a great job of making religion look pretty bad. is there anything positive you might bring to the table rather than all this nonsense?

  45. on 13 Dec 2008 at 10:44 am 45.JAB said …

    okay i need to correct myself :( my ignorance on this particular matter is noted… thanks.

    the devil according to islam wasn’t an angel…etc.. but he did have free will as well…

    In Islam, the devil Iblis (Satan and/or Lucifer in Christianity) was a Jinn.[31] (humans are created from Earth, Angels from light, and jinn from fire). The jinn though, are not necessarily evil; they could be good doers or sinners just like humans. Since the jinn and humans are the only kinds of creation who have the will to choose, the followers of Iblis could be jinn or human. The angels, on the other hand, are sinless and only obey the will of God.[32] In the Qur’an, when God ordered those witnessing the creation of Adam to kneel before him (before Adam), Iblis refused to do so and was therefore damned for refusal to obey God’s will.[33]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonology#Islamic_demonology

    quick question, am i able to post a topic on here not just a comment, and how? (or on any blog)
    thanks again!

  46. on 13 Dec 2008 at 12:08 pm 46.Hermes said …

    Blogs are private; web log; … a journal or diary. That anyone is able to comment at all on a blog post is up to the owner of the blog.

    If you want to start a post, you need to get your own blog or go somewhere that is public like a forum or a news group.

  47. on 13 Dec 2008 at 12:11 pm 47.Hermes said …

    Go here …

    http://www.islamicboard.com

    … and you can talk about your supernatural / superstitious beliefs all you want.

  48. on 13 Dec 2008 at 7:16 pm 48.loved one said …

    jab,

    why post meandering nonsense? did you even bother to read the responses to your previous meandering nonsense?

    “the devil according to islam wasn’t an angel…etc.. but he did have free will as well”

    for your mythology to have the slightest bearing in reality (you seem to forget that this is an atheist blog – atheists have no reason to believe god’s existence). your stories are fabricated from the human imagination and you have thus far only verified that fact for us.
    why tell us about an imaginary satan created by an imaginary god?

  49. on 13 Dec 2008 at 7:24 pm 49.loved one said …

    CONSECRATION OF CHALICE, ATHAME OR OTHER TOOL:

    Before these assembled spirits I bring (name type of tool) to be
    dedicated to the service of the Lady and Lord.

    (Pass tool three times through smoke of the incense.)

    By the power of air, be thou purified. Be thou dedicated to purity of
    thought and to harmlessness that all intentions for which thou art
    used may harm none and be for the good of all.

    (Pass tool three times through or over the flame of the fire candle.)

    By the power of fire, be thou purified. Be thou dedicated to purity of desire, and to harmlessness that all goals which thou art doest
    help achieve may harm none and be for the good of all.

    (Take a few drops of water and sprinkle or dab on instrument.)

    By the power of water, be thou purified. Be thou dedicated to purity
    of emotion, and to harmlessness that all that thou shalt be used in a
    spirit of harmony, harming none and for the good of all.

    (Touch instrument to the stone or salt in north quarter)

    By the power of earth, be thou purified. Be thou dedicated to
    steadfastness and purity of purpose, that my will be achieved without
    wavering, with harm to none and for the good of all.

    (If this is a chalice, present it first to the Lady, then to the Lord,
    if athame, reverse order. All other instruments use personal
    preference, but it is courtesy to present them to Her first.)

    PRESENTATION FOR CHALICE:

    Lady Freya, Keeper of Femininity, bless this chalice. Let it be as
    Thy cauldron, a vessel of productivity that it may be worThy to
    dispense Thy bounty. Let it be used in Thy service and in the service
    of humanity. Let it be so bound that no harm may come of it to any
    being, but let it rather be an instrument of good-will and
    understanding; of loving harmony. To Thy sacred self I dedicate this
    vessel, (name of vessel), that it and I may long be of service to
    Thee.

    Lord Thor, companion to the Lady, champion of the Gods, bless this
    chalice and keep watch over it. Guard the works which come forth from
    it, that they ever be in the service of Thee and Thy Lady, that they
    be of service to humankind, and that they abide by the laws of
    harmony. To Thee I vow I shall use it for Her sacred purposes, and
    for no other.
    So mote it be.

    SO MOTE IT BE! jab, do you now see how meaningless your gibberish is? yours is just one myth of many and it is by no means the right one or even the most entertaining. Personally, I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings trilogy way more than the bible or the Qu’ran.

  50. on 15 Dec 2008 at 6:45 am 50.JAB said …

    Thanks again guys!
    i wish i had time to discuss things further, but i’m exauhsted… i ope next weeken i have more time…

    but i really liked the forum link thanks!
    and this is what i’m bringing you guys back:

    http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/brainwashing.htm

    http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm

    maybe it helps you guys some…

    g-nite

  51. on 15 Dec 2008 at 10:51 pm 51.loved one said …

    jab,

    thanks. a good laugh is always helpful.

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