Feed on Posts or Comments 22 December 2014

Christianity Thomas on 03 Dec 2012 12:01 am

A Christian’s Perspective

The following comment appeared on this thread (#55) and offers a Christian’s perspective:

Hi im a 13 year old and I am a follower of Christ.

First off, don’t think I’ve been fed all of this from my family. I have been researching for a long time over this subject.
Secondly, I’ll be honest that this comment will have nothing to do with the text taken from the pamphlet that “proves” God is not real.

Also as I already told you I am a Christian. You may think Im poisoning your blog but just hear me out for this just once and read it. I wrote this to show you that a lot of your “proven” points disproving God cannot be scientifically proven and in my opinion, they are false. In the website connected to this blog, there are 50 points that “disprove” God. the first basically says that God lies about answering prayers. I firmly believe that this is false. My example goes like this: suppose you are in your 30’s to 40’s and either of your parents is dying or will die soon. First: where will they go after they die? Will they just go blank, their personality, mind, memories, and consiousness gone, popped into thin air? Never to be seen again? Well that sucks, doesn’t it? Think about it: You will go through the same thing. Maybe it will hurt. A lot. More pain than anyone has ever experienced. Then you pop out of existence. Doesn’t that scare you? It sure did to me. Believing in God and at least having what your mind tells you is a loving relationship with Him at least gives you hope. I’d rather have false hope than no hope at all. But back to praying, the results of praying are more often than not very gradual and are sometimes hard to notice. If you pray for your almost to the point of dying parent to become a christian, they may never accept Christ until they are about to die or they may never accept Christ. It’s their decision, ultimately. Abraham, in Genesis, was told by God he would have an heir from his own body with Sarah when he was about 75. He had to wait until he was about 99 for Sarah to give birth to Isaac. It’s a test of faith; thats another reason for prayer. It either builds up your trust in God or if you don’t see results immediately, you just pack your bags and leave. Also, in “Proof” #1, your example was asking God ONCE to cure everyone of cancer is absurd: first off, its putting God to the test; something Jesus direclty told us NOT to do after he fasted for 40 days in the desert and was being challenged into sinning by Satan, and also I don’t believe it really is God’s will that directly influences EVERYTHING. Look at the fall of man, which is the first sin committed by Adam and Eve in the Gardden of Eden: after Eve and Adam ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they caused the entire world to be cursed: the ground was hard to work, thorns and diseases came into being, and disasters actually began to strike. It looks like God is punishing them, but He isn’t. You have to remember, before the first sin, Adam and Eve were like very young children, they did not know between good and evil. God told them they could do anything they wanted as long as they didn’t eat from one tree. Pretty simple right? Well they allowed themselves to be tricked into eating the fruit by Satan, and yes, it was their fault. they started the curses, including cancer. God doesn’t like us being sick with cancer, but he allows it because we did it to ourselves. He is not punishing us. He created a perfect world that we made imperfect, and he does not control the flow of diseases, like he does not control the orbit of the earth. Back to my example of you praying for a parent to become a christian, it istheir choice to accept Jesus, not God’s. God allows us to have choices: just like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Een. He does not want us to be mindless robots; He understands we value fairness so much and respects that. He gives us a choice between right and wrong no matter what. Maybe that dying family member will accept Jesus. In fact, Charles Darwin, the man famous for “discovering” evolution, on his deathbed rejected his entire work on the subject. What does this mean???? Anyway, I believe that in most cases God’s will is irrelevent to most situations. This is coming from a Christian! Also you said there is no scientific evidence. You are right. You probably think that my faith is kinda like believing in alternate universes. There is no scientific proof. Maybe black holes, but since no one can go to a black hole, you will never know. With God, the closest thing to evidence is how much Christianity has influenced the world. a 7th of the world’s population says that they are Christians and just because one man died from a common Roman execution for criminals, the course of history has been changed many times. Not bad for a guy that died around age 30, is it? The closest thing to scientific evidence is Christianity’s influence. Once again, look at history. Yeah.

Sorry that this was so long, but God IS REAL!!! Its not about just praying and following the rules; its about a loving relationship with someone like no other that you get to spend the rest of your life with. Its not about escaping hell, its about loving Jesus because of who he is, what he did, and his unending love for us!!!

Please, take the time to at least watch the movie The Passion of the Christ. At least a five minute clip on youtube when he’s on the cross. And if you want to continue, pray to Him. ask him if you can be in a relationship with him. Trust me: he never leaves anyone out! Then, read a gospel and join a church! (I prefer non-denominational) Thank you for reading this entire thing and sorry that its so long just think about what I said please.

Thanks so much! God bless you all! Jesus loves you

Does anyone have comments for or against this point of view?

310 Responses to “A Christian’s Perspective”

  1. on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:18 am 1.annoymous said …

    I think you need to read The God Delusion. Then get back to us. There is no way you can convince me there is some sort of god out there.

  2. on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:26 am 2.Daryl Branson said …

    Save us from 13-year-olds who are certain they understand the world. You have a lot of ideas in your post, but no substance, and most of your proof is from the Bible, which is part of what you ask us to take on faith.

    It is not up to us to prove that God exists to you. You are the one trying to convince us of a positive statement, that God exists. It is up to you to prove it. Also note that in science, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence supporting it must be, and nothing is more extraordinary than saying that there is an ancient intelligence that is everywhere, knows everything, and ultimately controls the world. Anecdotal stories about deathbed recantations by Darwin and stories about Abraham and Isaac aren’t gong to cut it.

  3. on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:27 am 3.Anonymous said …

    Comments? Almost every brain-dead Christian excuse and logical fallacy summed up in one post. It smells much like concentrated troll to be honest.

  4. on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:32 am 4.The messenger said …

    1.annoymous, God is real.

  5. on 03 Dec 2012 at 3:05 am 5.alex said …

    “where will they go after they die?”

    dust probably. “probably” is not not heaven/hell proof.

    “Never to be seen again? Well that sucks, doesn’t it”

    it sucks to be gay/woman/minority because of theists.

    “More pain than anyone has ever experienced.”

    ask the kids molested by priests. ,

    “Then you pop out of existence. Doesn’t that scare you?”

    when i die, that’s it. nothing brave about it.

    “a loving relationship with Him at least gives you hope”

    try hindu. more progressive and tolerant.

    “the results of praying are more often than not very gradual and are sometimes hard to notice.”

    exact same results as NOT prayin….

    damn… you’re full of shit. i better quit.

  6. on 03 Dec 2012 at 3:05 am 6.A said …

    “I think you need to read The God Delusion.”

    Read it. Now, what is one to take away from this masterpiece? God doesn’t exist? Alright, lay out the case.

    Feet shuffling……

    Mouth opening…..

    Anonymous back-peddling like a defensive back shifting away from the Dawkin’s masterpiece.

  7. on 03 Dec 2012 at 3:48 am 7.Lou(DFW) said …

    4.ASS said …

    “Feet shuffling……

    Mouth opening…..”

    Of which you are infinitely familiar when it comes to presenting evidence for your imaginary god.

  8. on 03 Dec 2012 at 4:06 am 8.Anonymous said …

    1100+ words in the OP and how many does “A” for asshole address?

    Zero.

    Yes, that sums him up in one word. A zero.

  9. on 03 Dec 2012 at 6:09 am 9.Anonymous said …

    “Jesus loves you” – of course he does, and according to Christian theology here’s how the Christian god loves people who don’t worship him:

    http://youtu.be/UeOTfNqis44

  10. on 03 Dec 2012 at 12:08 pm 10.A said …

    And anonymous completes the exit. Recommends a book but can’t even tell us why it is special. Non sequitur, dismissed.

  11. on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:11 pm 11.Anonymous said …

    > Jesus loves you

    If Jesus loves me, in what tangible ways does he demonstrate his love?

    How is the love of Jesus any different from random chance?

  12. on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:24 pm 12.Lou(DFW) said …

    “Will they just go blank, their personality, mind, memories, and consiousness gone, popped into thin air? Never to be seen again? Well that sucks, doesn’t it?”

    How is that any different than your existence BEFORE you born?

  13. on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:26 pm 13.Lou(DFW) said …

    8.ASS said …

    “And anonymous completes the exit. Recommends a book but can’t even tell us why it is special. Non sequitur, dismissed.”

    ASS proclaims a belief in an imaginary god, but he can’t even provide any evidence for it. “Non sequitur, dismissed.”

  14. on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:47 pm 14.Anonymous said …

    “How is the love of Jesus any different from random chance?”

    Random chance doesn’t condemn you to suffer in eternity for not believing in it; according to Christians, rejecting Jesus’s love does.

    People don’t kill millions of other humans in the name of random chance; they do, though, in the name of Jesus’s love.

    Every day we encounter random chance. Jesus’s love, not at all.

  15. on 03 Dec 2012 at 5:45 pm 15.Lou(DFW) said …

    First he writes:

    “the first basically says that God lies about answering prayers. I firmly believe that this is false.”

    Followed by an example of how prayer IS FALSE:

    “If you pray for your almost to the point of dying parent to become a christian, they may never accept Christ until they are about to die or they may never accept Christ. It’s their decision, ultimately.”

    Then:

    “…it was their fault. they started the curses, including cancer. God doesn’t like us being sick with cancer, but he allows it because we did it to ourselves.”

    Are birth defects the result of a curse? Natural disasters? Please explain.

    Also, the usual xtian/theist lies:

    “In fact, Charles Darwin, the man famous for “discovering” evolution, on his deathbed rejected his entire work on the subject.”

    and:

    “…God IS REAL!!!”

    Three exclamation marks make that much more true!!!

    He’s just a stupid kid. ASS, what’s your excuse?

  16. on 03 Dec 2012 at 8:42 pm 16.Lou(DFW) said …

    “First: where will they go after they die? Will they just go blank, their personality, mind, memories, and consiousness gone, popped into thin air? Never to be seen again?”

    Correct. What evidence do you that anything other than that happens?

    What about animals? They have those same characteristics. What happens to them when they die?

  17. on 03 Dec 2012 at 9:07 pm 17.DPK said …

    Right, where does a flame go when it runs out of fuel or oxygen? Just because you want to imagine it goes somewhere doesn’t make it so.
    You have been dead for at least 13.7 billion years before now… it wasn’t so bad? No sense in living in fear of death, it’s not like you have a choice… no one gets out alive. Pretending by believing in a magical man will let you live forever doesn’t change the fact that there is absolutely 0… read that ZERO evidence to even suggest that any such thing actually occurs.

  18. on 03 Dec 2012 at 10:04 pm 18.Ben said …

    “there is absolutely 0… read that ZERO evidence to even suggest that any such thing actually occurs.”

    Where is your math and where is the proof.

  19. on 03 Dec 2012 at 10:21 pm 19.Cassie said …

    ok…first of all i am also a christian. when i first read this i was shocked. im 19 years old and i never knew a site like this existed. it upsets me at how many people do not believe there is a God. and please when you write His name be respectful and capitalize it. thank you. no back to what i was saying.i was saved at age 18 just a little over a year ago. God completely changed my life around. i was a young girl with no one to look to for guidance. i didnt have a home, a family or food. i made money sometime from having sex with complete strangers. one day when i was eating my last bit of food this woman walked by me and stopped. she looked me in the eye and said to me: “get up sweet heart a beautiful young woman like you should not be crawling around at the bottom of others feet.” that night i found who God was and what he could do for someone as low as me. He gave me a loving family, a home and food all in one day. how can anyone say there is no God! look around you!!!!! how can you look at the stars, the moon, the sun, your daughter/son, the love you can see in their eyes for you came from a marvelous creator…how can anyone deny that?

  20. on 03 Dec 2012 at 10:44 pm 20.BrianE said …

    Fear, guilt, and misinformation. You’re 13, and when I was that age, I would have argued the same points. But what you need to try and understand is that the things that you believe to be true, most likely are not. Jesus was not the son of god; there have been many sons of god – he just happens to be the most popular one right now. And you choose to believe out of fear (you’re afraid of missing out on an afterlife) and guilt (you mention the resurrection and Passion of the Christ – which is a horrible film meant to do nothing but scare and guilt people). These are not good reasons for believing; in fact they’re terrible. Muslims believe in their god out of fear and guilt as well; are they wrong, or are you wrong, or perhaps both? And don’t deny evolution – you need to understand that only a small cult of Christians even do this anymore, and its embarrassing to other Christians.

  21. on 03 Dec 2012 at 11:22 pm 21.DPK said …

    “there is absolutely 0… read that ZERO evidence to even suggest that any such thing actually occurs.”
    Where is your math and where is the proof.

    Ben, the village idiot, who also equates eating chicken eggs with eating human fetuses, does not realize that the absence of something does not require math, or evidence. If you we’re to claim that there is no evidence to suggest that flying pink unicorns exist, would it be necessary for me to demand you produce proof. You are such a moron.
    If you have evidence that life continues after death, present it. If you cannot, then that is in total agreement with my statement.

  22. on 03 Dec 2012 at 11:23 pm 22.Lou(DFW) said …

    16.Has-Ben said …

    “there is absolutely 0… read that ZERO evidence to even suggest that any such thing actually occurs.”

    “Where is your math and where is the proof.”

    Has-Ben, you idiot. The proof for heaven is in your feeble imagination. And if there’s ANY evidence for heaven other ZERO, then please provide it, fraud.

    Where is the “math” that leprechauns don’t exist?

  23. on 03 Dec 2012 at 11:27 pm 23.Lou(DFW) said …

    19.DPK said …

    “If you have evidence that life continues after death, present it. If you cannot, then that is in total agreement with my statement.”

    That is the math for all the theists and their many sock-puppets here: ZERO evidence, simple math. Not even the idiot theists here need their fingers to count that far.

    So, Has-Ben, that’s the “math” until you provide any “proof” or evidence of heaven.

  24. on 04 Dec 2012 at 12:15 am 24.Lou(DFW) said …

    17.Cassie said …

    “i made money sometime from having sex with complete strangers. one day when i was eating my last bit of food…”

    Maybe you weren’t very good at it.

    “look around you!!!!! how can you look at the stars, the moon, the sun, your daughter/son, the love you can see in their eyes for you came from a marvelous creator…how can anyone deny that?”

    Simple:

    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst

    Some marvelous creator in which you believe!

    Now, who else wants to post another fictional affirmation?

  25. on 04 Dec 2012 at 1:20 am 25.A said …

    Cassie

    My apologies for the hateful atheist and their vulgarity. You seem like a sweet genuine good young lady. Never let these haters change that.

  26. on 04 Dec 2012 at 1:41 am 26.alex said …

    “You seem like a sweet genuine good young lady…”

    Run away Cassie! Run! Run! to the popo.

  27. on 04 Dec 2012 at 2:00 am 27.Anonymous said …

    “You seem like a sweet genuine good young lady”.

    Isn’t that the kind of thing that Christian priests would say to the children in their care before they raped them?

    “A” if morals come from your god, is that why so many of your moral leaders are sex offenders?

  28. on 04 Dec 2012 at 2:10 am 28.alex said …

    “why so many of your moral leaders are sex offenders”

    The redeemer card washes away all sins, no matter how repugnant or vile. Theists love it. Obvious? Yay!

    Molested kids? God says, walk it off. Heaven awaits.

  29. on 04 Dec 2012 at 2:28 am 29.Cassie said …

    im not trying to be rude, you have your beliefs and i have mine. maybe i wasn’t good at it…i never said i was. but its not my place to judge anyone. all i know is that God helped me up from where i was and He has never left my side. i cant speak for everyone all i know is that there is a loving and just God. you can say all you want but ive seen the change in my life and i will be forever thankful!

  30. on 04 Dec 2012 at 3:09 am 30.Lou(DFW) said …

    29.Cassie said …

    “all i know is that God helped me up from where i was and He has never left my side.”

    How do you know that? You only mentioned that some woman took you in. What does that have to do with god? I took in stray animals. God didn’t tell me to do it, and I’m sure they weren’t praying.

  31. on 04 Dec 2012 at 3:11 am 31.Lou(DFW) said …

    29.Cassie said …

    More nonsense about her god delusion, but didn’t reply to:

    “24.Lou(DFW) said …

    Simple:
    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst

    Some marvelous creator in which you believe!”

  32. on 04 Dec 2012 at 3:13 am 32.Lou(DFW) said …

    25.ASS said …

    “My apologies…”

    When are you going to apologize for NEVER, EVER providing evidence for your imaginary good?

  33. on 04 Dec 2012 at 3:14 am 33.DPK said …

    And which one of the multitudes of available gods do you attribute your salvation to? Every religion claims the same kinds of things, and every one claims the others are false. They cannot all be right, but they CAN all be wrong.

  34. on 04 Dec 2012 at 4:59 am 34.Slapnuts McGee said …

    Cassie and messenger would be good friends.

  35. on 04 Dec 2012 at 5:03 am 35.Anti-Theist said …

    Cassies story is saturated with nievety / ingenuinuity. (Ooh double Sic) Beyond the point of an educatable / self educatable person. A whore needs ample time to heal before reality looks atainable. Have fun pointing out my fabricated words those of weak rebuttal.

  36. on 04 Dec 2012 at 11:16 am 36.The messenger said …

    20.BrianE, the passion of Christ is not ment to scare people in any way, and it is not suppose to make us feel guilt.

    The passion of Christ film was created so that people would better understand the suffering that Jesus went through for us.

    BrianE, the only reason that you feel fear is because you are afraid to believe in God.

    You are afraid of God.

    You should not fear God, you should love God and you should praise him for all that he has done for us.

    Do not be afraid brother.

  37. on 04 Dec 2012 at 6:22 pm 37.Scourge said …

    Either a troll or the product of home-schooling abuse.

  38. on 04 Dec 2012 at 10:24 pm 38.Polonius said …

    Anonymous said …

    “Hi im a 13 year old and I am a follower of Christ.”

    I don’t know if “Anonymous” is here, but here goes.

    “First off, don’t think I’ve been fed all of this from my family. I have been researching for a long time over this subject.
    Secondly, I’ll be honest that this comment will have nothing to do with the text taken from the pamphlet that “proves” God is not real.

    Also as I already told you I am a Christian. You may think Im poisoning your blog but just hear me out for this just once and read it. I wrote this to show you that a lot of your “proven” points disproving God cannot be scientifically proven and in my opinion, they are false. In the website connected to this blog, there are 50 points that “disprove” God. the first basically says that God lies about answering prayers.”

    First off, if you want people to read your comments, you really need to divide them up into bite-sized paragraphs. Remember, people don’t come here to read what you’ve written. If you want them to, you need to make it easy for them. As it is, I doubt if many will bother.

    “I firmly believe that this is false. My example goes like this: suppose you are in your 30’s to 40’s and either of your parents is dying or will die soon. First: where will they go after they die? Will they just go blank, their personality, mind, memories, and consiousness gone, popped into thin air? Never to be seen again? Well that sucks, doesn’t it? Think about it: You will go through the same thing. Maybe it will hurt. A lot. More pain than anyone has ever experienced. Then you pop out of existence.”

    Secondly, if you divide things into paragraphs, it helps to organize your thoughts so that you’re only dealing with one idea at a time. Here you’ve started off by speculating on where loved ones go after they die. Then suddenly you’re talking about how death might hurt. And suddenly “more pain than anyone has ever experienced” – where did that come from?

    “Doesn’t that scare you? It sure did to me. Believing in God and at least having what your mind tells you is a loving relationship with Him at least gives you hope. I’d rather have false hope than no hope at all.”

    The gist of your argument here seems that the end of consciousness is such an appalling prospect that it’s better to believe in a god. But of course the same argument could be used to “prove” the existence of Santa Claus. Or of a variety of other gods. In fact it proves nothing.

    “But back to praying, the results of praying are more often than not very gradual and are sometimes hard to notice. If you pray for your almost to the point of dying parent to become a christian, they may never accept Christ until they are about to die or they may never accept Christ. It’s their decision, ultimately. Abraham, in Genesis, was told by God he would have an heir from his own body with Sarah when he was about 75. He had to wait until he was about 99 for Sarah to give birth to Isaac. It’s a test of faith; thats another reason for prayer. It either builds up your trust in God or if you don’t see results immediately, you just pack your bags and leave.”

    Now here, you’re touching on a very important thing about religions. Religions are very big on faith. Religions are very much against questioning their teachings. Questioning means doubt, and doubt is A Very Bad Thing.

    Of course, if any one religion had evidence to support it, its proponents would be only too happy to think about questions. But thinking is A Very Bad Thing, because it leads to doubt. This is nonsense. Thinking is what humans do best; it is nothing to be afraid of, and it can free your mind to marvel at the wonders of nature if you take off your blinders.

    “Also, in “Proof” #1, your example was asking God ONCE to cure everyone of cancer is absurd: first off, its putting God to the test; something Jesus direclty told us NOT to do after he fasted for 40 days in the desert and was being challenged into sinning by Satan, and also I don’t believe it really is God’s will that directly influences EVERYTHING. Look at the fall of man, which is the first sin committed by Adam and Eve in the Gardden of Eden: after Eve and Adam ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they caused the entire world to be cursed: the ground was hard to work, thorns and diseases came into being, and disasters actually began to strike. It looks like God is punishing them, but He isn’t. You have to remember, before the first sin, Adam and Eve were like very young children, they did not know between good and evil. God told them they could do anything they wanted as long as they didn’t eat from one tree. Pretty simple right? Well they allowed themselves to be tricked into eating the fruit by Satan, and yes, it was their fault. they started the curses, including cancer. God doesn’t like us being sick with cancer, but he allows it because we did it to ourselves. He is not punishing us. He created a perfect world that we made imperfect, and he does not control the flow of diseases, like he does not control the orbit of the earth.”

    Do you believe this God is omniscient, in which I include prescient? Do you believe this God could see in advance how Adam would behave? Do you believe he created them so that they would behave in a particular way, but that it was somehow their fault?

    Try to take a step back and look at my previous paragraph with an open mind. If you can, you’ll begin to see how absurd your concept of God is. And that’s without even getting onto questions like who invented earthquakes.

    “Back to my example of you praying for a parent to become a christian, it istheir choice to accept Jesus, not God’s. God allows us to have choices: just like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Een. He does not want us to be mindless robots; He understands we value fairness so much and respects that. He gives us a choice between right and wrong no matter what. Maybe that dying family member will accept Jesus.”

    I think today I’ll choose to believe that I can fly. Or perhaps I’ll just believe that I have an expensive fast car. No, that’s ridiculous. We cannot choose what to believe. We can only choose what kind of evidence we will accept to inform our understanding of the world.

    One option is to accept the evidence of science. It might help if you understand a little about how science works. In particular, there’s an odd piece of jargon that scientists use that’s often misunderstood by the public. Creationists like to say “the theory of evolution is only a theory”, or “the big bang theory is only a theory”. That betrays a misunderstanding of how scientists use the word “theory”. What most people would call “only a theory” is what a scientist would call a “hypothesis”.

    In science, a hypothesis only becomes known as a theory when all attempts to prove it wrong have failed. You should understand that scientists compete with each other for research funding; there is nothing they like more than proving each other wrong. Once a hypothesis is elevated to the status of a theory, you can bet it’s a very good description of how the world works. It might subsequently emerge that it’s not a perfect description of how things behave at very large or small scales, near the speed of light or at very low temperatures, but it’s not fundamentally wrong.

    Another option is to accept only the evidence of a bronze age book with a few iron age appendices.

    “In fact, Charles Darwin, the man famous for “discovering” evolution, on his deathbed rejected his entire work on the subject.”

    In fact? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion, somebody who wasn’t present alleged that he expressed regret at how he had presented the theory, a long way from rejecting the theory itself. But two people, at least one of whom was present, refute that allegation.

    It’s important not to regard Wikipedia as a primary source. If I want to rely on that last paragraph, I really ought to check the sources. But d’you know what? It doesn’t matter.

    Darwin’s Origin of Species consists of a few dozen pages of setting out the hypothesis, and hundreds and hundreds of pages of overwhelming evidence of the truth of that hypothesis. If you were to read it with an open mind, you could not fail to be persuaded.

    You need to understand that scientists follow the evidence. Even if Darwin had recanted on his deathbed, the evidence would remain. What he thought really doesn’t matter.

    “What does this mean???? Anyway, I believe that in most cases God’s will is irrelevent to most situations. This is coming from a Christian! Also you said there is no scientific evidence. You are right. You probably think that my faith is kinda like believing in alternate universes. There is no scientific proof. Maybe black holes, but since no one can go to a black hole, you will never know.”

    No-one can go to a black hole, or see an atom, but science allows us to infer the behavior of objects by how they influence their surroundings. Honestly, you should read about science! It’s fascinating.

    “With God, the closest thing to evidence is how much Christianity has influenced the world. a 7th of the world’s population says that they are Christians and just because one man died from a common Roman execution for criminals, the course of history has been changed many times. Not bad for a guy that died around age 30, is it? The closest thing to scientific evidence is Christianity’s influence. Once again, look at history. Yeah.

    Sorry that this was so long, but God IS REAL!!! Its not about just praying and following the rules; its about a loving relationship with someone like no other that you get to spend the rest of your life with. Its not about escaping hell, its about loving Jesus because of who he is, what he did, and his unending love for us!!!

    Please, take the time to at least watch the movie The Passion of the Christ. At least a five minute clip on youtube when he’s on the cross. And if you want to continue, pray to Him. ask him if you can be in a relationship with him. Trust me: he never leaves anyone out! Then, read a gospel and join a church! (I prefer non-denominational) Thank you for reading this entire thing and sorry that its so long just think about what I said please.

    Thanks so much! God bless you all! Jesus loves you”

    Try to look at evidence with an open mind. Think!

  39. on 04 Dec 2012 at 11:31 pm 39.Patrick Flannery said …

    “I’d rather have false hope than no hope at all.”

    That is why you are a believer and why there is really no point in talking to you at all. You have no interest in the truth or knowledge and are instead looking only for comfort and happiness. This is certainly your right and an understandable choice.

    However, understanding as you do that you are not really interested in the truth, you should not presume to put forth your worldview to others as one they should follow or even be interested in. As you acknowledge that you really aren’t making any attempt to really know anything, you should understand that others have committed themselves to this very enterprise, turning away from the comfort and happiness you prize so greatly in order to do so. By rejecting knowledge and understanding, you place yourself in a position where you must defer to these people and accept their conclusions. Your position of comfort over truth is one of complete powerlessness. I hope it serves you well – I could never tolerate it.

  40. on 04 Dec 2012 at 11:58 pm 40.The messenger said …

    39.Patrick Flannery, you obviously do not understand what the true messege of his comment is.

    He only said that statement about hope as a way to appeal to people who have no hope.

  41. on 05 Dec 2012 at 5:03 am 41.Travis said …

    I recently came across the “stone paradox” which essentially inquires to whether or not God can, in his own omnipotence, create a stone that he couldn’t lift. If he can create a stone heavy enough to stop him from lifting it, then he is not perfect. On the contraire, if there is no stone that is too heavy to be lifted by God, then he is not omnipotent because he cannot create a stone heavy enough to not lift…Additionally, I would also like to use Carl Sagan’s story about the dragon in his garage. Take the time to read about it…because if you believe in God based off faith, then you must believe in the floating, invisible, immaterial, heatless-fire breathing dragon…if not then answer how you can validate one claim of faith(the dragon) over another (God)?

  42. on 05 Dec 2012 at 7:12 am 42.Severin said …

    29 Cassie
    “all i know is that God helped me …”

    Didn’t you say in #19 that a woman helped you?

  43. on 05 Dec 2012 at 7:20 am 43.Severin said …

    Messenger
    “… all that happens to us happens for reason, it is a part of our father’s plan”

    Holocaust?
    Straving children?

    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst ?

    Why don’t you tell us?

  44. on 05 Dec 2012 at 12:36 pm 44.Patrick Flannery said …

    40. Messenger: Thanks for the irrelevant non sequiter. Apparently, you are not able to grasp either of our arguments.

  45. on 05 Dec 2012 at 3:01 pm 45.BrianE said …

    Messenger: Any god that employs fear and guilt as its tools for getting and keeping followers is evil; plain and simple. I don’t believe in god not because I’m afraid of him, but because I’m confident he does not exist. I’m no more afraid of your god than I am of Thor, Zeus, or Shivva. Rather, if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll see that it is you who is afraid to question your beliefs – which means this man-made system is doing its job.

  46. on 05 Dec 2012 at 3:08 pm 46.Anonymous said …

    Patrick, that’s Messenger’s MO.

    Some here suggest that he’s mentally ill. An alternate explanation is that he invents absurd explanations along the lines of “what it really means is…” in order to draw the conversation away from the bible and into his game of shift-the-goal-posts.

  47. on 05 Dec 2012 at 8:48 pm 47.The messenger said …

    46.Anonymous, you and every other Athiest on this blog fail to understand the true meaning of the bible.

    I have given you the meaning of every bible passage that you have presented before me.

  48. on 05 Dec 2012 at 9:52 pm 48.Lou(DFW) said …

    47.The messenger said …

    “I have given you the meaning of every bible passage that you have presented before me.”

    Where have you explained why your imaginary god allows innocent children to be killed by natural “disasters?”

    How is that part of your imaginary god’s plan?

  49. on 05 Dec 2012 at 9:54 pm 49.Lou(DFW) said …

    47.The messenger said …

    “I have given you the meaning of every bible passage that you have presented before me.”

    Yes, that’s easy for anybody, even some moron like you.

    Answer the difficult questions:

    43.Severin said …
    Messenger
    “… all that happens to us happens for reason, it is a part of our father’s plan”
    Holocaust?
    Straving children?
    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst ?
    Why don’t you tell us?

  50. on 06 Dec 2012 at 5:08 am 50.AmSci said …

    If this kid is already feeling the need to make these arguments at thirteen, he’s probably going to end up an atheist anyway. It reads more like an internal struggle than any sort of coherent argument.

    I hope he joins the debate team at some point so he can learn a bit more about logical fallacies. He makes an argument from consequences (non existence after death), argument from authority (Darwin’s recantation, although it isn’t true), argumentum ad populum (lots of people believe its true), special pleading (prayer won’t work if you test it), and an argument by bare assertion (there IS a God!). He also shifts the burden of proof when he’s making the positive claim and uses anecdotal evidence regarding prayer.

    If you are reading this, kid, here is a recommendation: whenever you are making an argument, ask yourself, “could I use this same argument to support something that definitely isn’t true?” If the answer is yes, then you are using a logical fallacy and should either find an argument that is logical or abandon your position.

    For example, you write, “The closest thing to scientific evidence is Christianity’s influence.” But, you could use the same argument for the Greek and Roman religions, Islam, Buddhism, etc. At most, only one of those religions can be true. Therefore, your argument is a logical fallacy– it is not evidence that Christianity’s claims are true.

    I leave you with a final thought: there are an infinite number of untrue claims about reality and a finite number of claims that actually reflect reality. Without any evidence that a claim reflects reality, it makes far more sense to assume that it isn’t true. God is one such claim. Remember never to confuse what you want to be true with what actually is. And, I promise, I godless finite existence isn’t so bad– especially if you can find some great people to share it with. Your chances of ever having existed are small indeed; just be glad you’re here– the universe owes you nothing.

  51. on 06 Dec 2012 at 6:22 am 51.Cynthiaj said …

    So hating the people and talking down to them that have faith in God is the answer??? Wow I’ll stick with my faith in the Lord God…. After all he’s the one that brought me to this site or whatever it is and told me to tell you that he forgives you all….Amen

  52. on 06 Dec 2012 at 6:38 am 52.Cynthiaj said …

    Oh and as for the 13 year old who started this abundance of comments may God bless you for your strength,wisdom,and faith. you by far are a much better human being then any of these people who believe hate is better then faith….PRAISE GOD!!!!!

  53. on 06 Dec 2012 at 7:27 am 53.Severin said …

    51 Cynthiaj
    “So hating the people …”

    Where did you find hate, dear lady?

    Maybe in your own deluded mind, that subconsciously fights your will to keep being deluded?
    Subconscious is a great thing, but may be dangerous. Under pressure of society you are consciously trying to keep supporting beliefs for which your subconscious knows are illogical and false, causing feeling of tension, which can easily bring hatred to the surface.

    Use your brain openly and purposely.
    No one here hates you.

  54. on 06 Dec 2012 at 4:06 pm 54.DPK said …

    In typical Christian fashion, Cynthiaj equates the pointing out of logical fallacies, falsehoods, misconceptions, and contradictions in religious faith as “hatred” and, playing the persecution card, seeks validation in the form of “respect.”
    Here’s a clue Cynthiaj. No one hates you, but your ideas warrant respect only as far as you can demonstrate that they are actually true. Since you can’t do that, if you choose to believe them yourself based solely on wishful thinking.. fine. Just please don’t expect others to “respect” that. We are past the Dark Ages.

    “I’ll stick with my faith in the Lord God…. After all he’s the one that brought me to this site or whatever it is and told me to tell you that he forgives you all….Amen”

    Well, that’s a problem. A few weeks ago we had another messenger of the Lord here who said god said we are all going to hell, or as he put it [[[HELL]]]. Maybe you missed him in the hallway. The other “messenger” here says all you have to do is be a good person to go to heaven, and the guy selling the book who claims to have actually died and gone to heaven says god told HIM “there is nothing to fear, there is NOTHING you can do wrong”. Another said we must accept Jesus, yet another said Jesus is false and we must accept Allah, another says we don’t have to accept anything, just be good.
    Obviously, all of you cannot be right, but also obviously, all of you COULD be wrong. So, why should we believe you, instead of any of the other prophets who claim to speak for god? And why, tell us please, has god chosen YOU, over all the other people in the world, to deliver this message to us? Indeed, if he loves me, why doesn’t he talk to me HIMSELF, instead of sending YOU to some obscure internet forum to deliver a dubious message?
    Why would he do that? Amen.

  55. on 06 Dec 2012 at 8:31 pm 55.Anti-Theist said …

    I don’t remember the xtians on this site, five years ago claiming to be prophets. We certainly have a new breed these days. As goes for the rest of the planet I guess. As faith becomes more obscure believers become more volatile / desperate. It must be exhausting to keep such stupid beliefs in todays world.

  56. on 06 Dec 2012 at 8:59 pm 56.CastBound said …

    “Messenger: Any god that employs fear and guilt as its tools for getting and keeping followers is evil; plain and simple.”

    Fear and guilt are natural human responses. Fear keeps one from sticking their hand in the fire. Guilt is our natural response when we have committed and act that is immoral.

    Brian as an atheist, define the template on which you have determined God is evil?

  57. on 06 Dec 2012 at 9:58 pm 57.Lou(DFW) said …

    56.CastBound said …

    “Fear keeps one from sticking their hand in the fire.”

    Actually, no – pain does.

    “Guilt is our natural response when we have committed and act that is immoral.”

    No, it’s not natural, because some people don’t have such guilt. Which, by the way, refutes your concept of absolute morality.

    “Brian as an atheist, define the template on which you have determined God is evil?”

    You are in no position to demand answers from anybody who is refuting YOUR claim when you NEVER, EVER provide answers.

    For example, you were asked many times where is the xtian “template” of (absolute) morality?

  58. on 06 Dec 2012 at 11:42 pm 58.The messenger said …

    48.Lou(DFW), I have explained that in my previous comments.

  59. on 07 Dec 2012 at 1:41 am 59.alex said …

    here’s your god proof: http://goo.gl/Gzzux

  60. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:02 am 60.Anonymous said …

    CastBound (another of the sockpuppet clan) makes some comments that, even if he was correct, strengthen the point made earlier.

    If we expand his definition of natural (whatever he means by that) we end up with:

    “Messenger: Any god that employs deliberately making people experience painful and negative emotions as its tools for getting and keeping followers is evil; plain and simple.

    Perhaps CastBound wants to equivocate over the word evil as he seems to be doing with “natural” whilst arguing that a god that acts as above is acting morally. Of course, that would be the Christian definition of moral as: “moral is whatever the Christian god does”.

    But please, please do point us to where the absolute and immutable Christian moral code is spelled out.

  61. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:15 am 61.The messenger said …

    49.Lou(DFW), I have already explained that in my previous comments.

    Stop asking me the same questions over and over you stupid parrot.

  62. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:21 am 62.The messenger said …

    59.alex are you mentally damaged?

    The police report said that the kid was spanked because he lied, it did not say that particular spanking was the cause of his death.

    That kid’s parrents commited a very bad sin for killing him.when those murrders die they will be sent to hell.

  63. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:34 am 63.The messenger said …

    60.Anonymous, he does not do that to keep his followers.

    He does all of that so we will learn from our mistakes and become morally better people.

    We have always learned best from our mistakes, that is how God is teaching us.

    Sure life is hard. So what?

    God wants us to chose to do what is good. If everyone would just do the what is right then there would be no more suffering in this world.

  64. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:36 am 64.The messenger said …

    57.Lou(DFW), deep everyone has guilt, even if they do not replied it.

  65. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:41 am 65.The messenger said …

    60.Anonymous, Jesus has always tried to teach us what is right from what is wrong, he died trying to teach us morality.

    He always showed us kindness and mercy, and yet you still have no love for him.

    You are nothing but a selfish missguided fool.

    May Jesus have mercy on you.

  66. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:44 am 66.The messenger said …

    60.Anonymous, the Christian moral code is spelled out in the bible.

    If you want to learn about it I suggest you go to a Catholic Church, they will teach you about it.

  67. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:58 am 67.Lou(DFW) said …

    61.The messenger said …

    “Stop asking me the same questions over and over…”

    Except that I never asked that question but once.

    “…you stupid parrot.”

    Says the person who repeatedly C&Ps the same laughable “proof” for his imaginary god.

  68. on 07 Dec 2012 at 4:02 am 68.Lou(DFW) said …

    62.The messenger said …

    “59.alex are you mentally damaged?”

    Speaking of mentally challenged:

    “The police report said that the kid was spanked because he lied, it did not say that particular spanking was the cause of his death.”

    No one other than you introduced spanking in to the subject of the beating death, certainly not alex. But according to you, it was part of god’s plan.

  69. on 07 Dec 2012 at 4:38 am 69.Ben said …

    brian has determined God is immoral based on his personal opinion. But what makes his opinion relevant? Nothing

    Warranted fear is actually moral. If a bear is about to attack and we run out of fear that is certainly moral.

    If a child steals from a friend and returns those items out of fear, that is actually moral.

    Brian is either a moron or trolling.

  70. on 07 Dec 2012 at 4:45 am 70.Anonymous said …

    “That kid’s parrents commited a very bad sin for killing him.when those murrders die they will be sent to hell.”

    But wait. What if they confess their sins sincerely and with genuine sorrow and are truly repentant? Then they get to go to heaven? They do, don’t they?

    Oh, as a reminder, your pretense here is that you are a Catholic so your answer needs to be in line with Catholic teachings.

  71. on 07 Dec 2012 at 8:12 am 71.Severin said …

    62 Messenger
    “That kid’s parrents commited a very bad sin for killing him.when those murrders die they will be sent to hell.”

    Why?

    “Everything that happens to us happens by purpose, it is a part of our father’s plan …”

    Why should those people go to hell, if the death of that poor kid was god’s will, done with purpose, as a part of his plan?
    Weren’t they only tools in god’s hands to realize his plan? Didn’t he planned for THEM to kil the child?
    Those people are completely innocent!

    Or,maybe everything that happens to us is NOT done by purpose, and is NOT a part of god’s plan?

    The problem for you is to distinguish between what is and what is not a part of god’s plan.

    But you already said: EVERYTHING!
    Are ou going to withdrow it?

  72. on 07 Dec 2012 at 8:27 am 72.Severin said …

    Messenger et al

    1. “Everything that happens to us happens by purpose and is a part of god’s plan”.

    2. Parents brutally killed their boy

    3. As that event absolutely fits the criterion “everything” (EVERYTHING fits that criterion), it MUST be that death of that kid was ALSO done by purpose, and a part of god’s plan. There is NO other possibility.

    4. God killed the boy and his parents are innocent

    I wonder why were they judged in a Christian country which recognizes and respects god’s plans!?

    Blasphemy!

  73. on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:47 am 73.The messenger said …

    on 07 Dec 2012 at 4:02 am 69.Lou(DFW), I was just stating a fact that was in the article that you posted.

  74. on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:50 am 74.The messenger said …

    71.Severin, eventually they will be released from hell, after they reolize that murrdering is wrong.

  75. on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:52 am 75.The messenger said …

    72.Severin, he did that to teach those parrents that killing is wrong. And once they realize that, they will be released from hell.

  76. on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:56 am 76.The messenger said …

    70.Anonymous, if they truly are sorry for killing thier kid, and they confess thier sins to God, go will forgive them and will let them into heaven.

  77. on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:57 am 77.Lou(DFW) said …

    69.Has-Ben hypocritically said …

    “brian has determined God is immoral…”

    He wrote “evil,” not immoral – “Any god that employs fear and guilt as its tools for getting and keeping followers is evil; plain and simple.”

    Stop lying about what is posted in a vain attempt to make a point.

    Furthermore, do you deny that your imaginary god does NOT use “fear and guilt as its tools?”

    “…based on his personal opinion. But what makes his opinion relevant? Nothing”

    Then had the nerve to say…

    “Warranted fear is actually moral. If a bear is about to attack and we run out of fear that is certainly moral.

    If a child steals from a friend and returns those items out of fear, that is actually moral.”

    That is only Has-Ben’s opinion because he never provides the actual absolute moral code that over and over he was asked to provide.

    Therefore, what makes his opinion relevant? Nothing.

  78. on 07 Dec 2012 at 1:46 pm 78.Lou(DFW) said …

    73.The messenger said …

    “on 07 Dec 2012 at 4:02 am 69.Lou(DFW), I was just stating a fact that was in the article that you posted.”

    First of all, I didn’t post it.

    Second, your comment is irrelevant. We can read the article without you re-quoting it.

  79. on 07 Dec 2012 at 3:24 pm 79.Anonymous said …

    So, from messenger, everything happens according to a plan. Which means that this god planned for the child to be killed by the parents.

    Why did he plan this? According to messenger, he planned that they would kill their own child so that he could teach them that murder was wrong.

    What would happen to them? According to messenger, they would go to hell or they would not go to hell.

    What decides if they go to hell? If they sincerely repent of murdering their child according to the plan that this god had for them, then they won’t go to hell.

    Could they ever be released from hell? Yes, if they sincerely repent of murdering their child according to the plan that this god had for them, then they will be released from hell.

    To recap; did this god know they would kill their child? Yes, he planned it so that they would.

    Did this god know when or if they would repent? Yes, he planned it so.

    What did they learn? They learned that their god made them kill their child so that he could teach them a lesson and punish them for fulfilling his plan.

    … and we still don’t think this guy is trolling just to get a rise?

  80. on 07 Dec 2012 at 11:34 pm 80.The messenger said …

    I already explained that.

  81. on 08 Dec 2012 at 4:25 am 81.The messenger said …

    5.alex, no it does not you idiot.

    God loves us nomatter who you are.

  82. on 08 Dec 2012 at 2:09 pm 82.DPK said …

    I recall some quote from Stephen Hawkings something to the effect of,… “I notice that even people who believe that everything happens according to god’s plan look before crossing the street..”
    Paraphrasing, but you get the concept.
    Messenger, I’m sure you’ve heard this many, many times, but you’re full of shit.

  83. on 08 Dec 2012 at 3:27 pm 83.The messenger said …

    Brother 82.DPK, every thing happens for a reason.

    God gave us the ability to recognize danger so we can keep our selves and the people around us safe from harm.

    We recognize danger for a reason too. God gave us the ability to recodnize danger so we can avoide it.

    Steven Halking thinks that he knows every thing.

    He does not.

    He is very book smart, but he lacks common sense.

  84. on 08 Dec 2012 at 6:07 pm 84.DPK said …

    Idiot… if “everything happens for a reason” why would we need to keep ourselves and the people around us from harm? Why would we need to recognize and avoid danger if everything that happens happens according to the way god wants it anyway.
    Unlike you, Steven “Halking” [sic]most definitely does NOT think he knows everything… you have no idea what a scientist is, do you. Stop pretending you know things you do not know… and stop pretending that you speak for god. If god were real he most certainly would not have picked a complete idiot like you as a spokesperson. Remember what the bible says about false prophets and those that claim to speak for god.

    On the other hand, you are neither “book smart”, and I guess that’s yer fancy word for educated, nor do you have common sense, as witnessed by the fact that you cannot write even 2 sentences without contradicting yourself.

  85. on 08 Dec 2012 at 6:28 pm 85.DPK said …

    and messenger, I notice you didn’t have anything to say about this comment on another thread:

    177.boyer said …

    “The Bible says not to argue with disbelievers, he [god] does not need us to argue for him.”

    If that is what the bible says, why are you disobeying god’s word?

    My, you are just a basket full of contradictions, aren’t you?

  86. on 09 Dec 2012 at 1:58 am 86.The messenger said …

    84.DPK, I am not argueing with you.

    I am just presenting the truth.

    You are disobeying Jesus by not believing in him.

  87. on 09 Dec 2012 at 1:59 am 87.The messenger said …

    I know what a scientist is you idiot.

  88. on 09 Dec 2012 at 2:27 am 88.The messenger said …

    Brother 84.DPK, Jesus is the only person who knows every thing.

  89. on 09 Dec 2012 at 4:28 am 89.Anonymous said …

    DPK, as you know, if a god was real he simply wouldn’t need a messenger. At all.

    That a supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity needs any kind of help can only be attributed to it being omni-imaginary.

  90. on 09 Dec 2012 at 3:07 pm 90.The messenger said …

    Brother 89.Anonymous, God does not need any messengers, but he does want messengers.

  91. on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:46 pm 91.Ben said …

    BrianE,

    Where did you go? You claimed God is evil. What is this evil vs good based on BrianE? You need something more substantial than just making a judgment.

  92. on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:13 pm 92.DPK said …

    Ben,
    Where did you go? You claimed that god is real. What is this claim based on Ben? You need something more substantial than just making a judgement.

  93. on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:53 pm 93.DPK said …

    But, since you want to discuss the good vs evil nature of your god legend in view of the absolute Christian moral code that you claim comes from this hypothetical god, please show us where we can find this absolute moral code so we can see exactly how the reported actions of your god mesh up.
    If you can’t do either of these simple things, then what the fuck are you actually trolling for, Ben? A way to take attention away from your humiliation when masquerading as xenon?

  94. on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:53 pm 94.Anti-Theist said …

    If god was real, what kind of pathetic shell of a Pearson would want to worship it for an eternity.

  95. on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:11 pm 95.40 Year Atheist said …

    There is a striking correlation between the underlying logic of the Argument from Evil and the Atheist ethic of Consequentialism.

    [As a disclaimer, I realize full well that not all Atheists are consequentialists; some are just co-opting Judeo-Christianity, or have made up their own ethic; a great many Atheists are consequentialists, however].

    Consequentialism is very simple: the end justifies the means. If an objective is declared good or moral, then any means to attain that end are also good and moral. The most recent instance of this is found in Obama’s teaching of Saul Alinsky’s “Rules For Radicals”, in which Alinsky lays out 11 rules of ethics and means and ends”. Exerpts:

    Rule #3: “in war the end justifies almost any means”.

    Rule #10: “you do what you can with what you have and clothe it in moral garments.

    And, “Moral rationalization is required at all times of action whether to justify the selection or the use of ends or means.”

    Consequentialism insists that there actually be no consequences for any actions taken toward a chosen goal.

    Contrast that position with the Argument from Evil, where humans would be shielded from the consequences of any bad decisions they might make. Insisting that a moral deity would remove all consequences places humans squarely on the path to mega-happiness. But the consequences exist, so the deity – if one exists – cannot be moral. And therefore can’t exist.

    Now contrast those positions to the humanist position. The only moral consequence is human happiness, according to the atheist, the humanist, and the radical. Not individual human happiness, mind you, but bulk happiness for the chosen population. Other individuals are expected to find their happiness in submitting to the will of those in charge: the elites. Any activities that subtract from overall happiness must be dealt with and eliminated. So the elites suffer no consequences for enforcing their will.

    The drive to be consequence-free is endemic now in our society. From homosexuals who blame straights for spreading AIDs, to feminists who blame men for their unhappiness, to adolescents who blame their parents, to the bankrupt who blame banks for lending to them, and on and on. But if God won’t remove consequences from our actions, then government must do it, yes? Government must cushion all consequences in order to provide happiness. This resulting ethic is common to a large portion of Atheists, humanists, leftists, and social activists.

    It is spreading to our youth who feel entitled, another aspect of being consequence-free.

    The denial of consequences is itelf evil. It is purely self-indulgent, and destructive. Arguing otherwise is irrational.

  96. on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:27 pm 96.Anonymous said …

    Wow, all of these diversions in order to protect the Xenon persona from having to respond to questions about “[his] conclusion that a Creator designed and created the universe”

    Xenon, we’re still waiting:

    The universe is vast, infinite even, and your assertion that it looks designed is vague and unquantifiable. Right now it’s simply an intellectually lazy way to dodge a lack of evidence.

    1) What do you mean by “designed”, don’t be circular, tell us what is “designed” about the universe. It being what it is is NOT helpful. Back up your assertion with detail.

    2) Which parts look “designed”? All, some, what?

    3) How did you verify that it looks designed? For example, how many other universes have you examined to see if they look designed, or is this a sample of one?

    4) What would an undesigned universe look like? We need both to form a valid comparison.

  97. on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:41 pm 97.Lou(DFW) said …

    95.40 Year Asshole said …

    “There is a striking correlation between the underlying logic of the Argument from Evil and the Atheist ethic of Consequentialism.”

    There is a striking correlation between the belief in an imaginary god and lying.

  98. on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:45 pm 98.Lou(DFW) said …

    91.Has-Ben said …

    “BrianE,

    Where did you go? You claimed God is evil.

    No, he didn’t. You’re lying again.

    BrianE actually wrote:

    “Any god that employs fear and guilt as its tools for getting and keeping followers is evil; plain and simple.”

    “What is this evil vs good based on BrianE?”

    The same thing upon which your definition of good and evil is based.

  99. on 09 Dec 2012 at 10:26 pm 99.The messenger said …

    48.Lou(DFW), I was talking about bible passages, you idiot, not events that are happening in modern time.

  100. on 09 Dec 2012 at 10:28 pm 100.The messenger said …

    Eben Alexander (author)

    This article or section is in the process of an expansion or major restructuring. You are welcome to assist in its construction by editing it as well. If this article or section has not been edited in several days, please remove this template.
    This article was last edited by 98.235.210.107 (talk | contribs) 2 days ago. (Purge)
    This article is about the neurosurgeon and author. For his great-grandfather, see Eben Alexander.
    Eben Alexander III
    Born December, 1953
    Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
    Nationality USA
    Occupation Writer, Neurosurgeon
    Website
    http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/
    Eben Alexander III (born December, 1953 in Charlotte, North Carolina) is a neurosurgeon and the author of the best-selling Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife, in which he shares his thoughts on his near-death experience and whether science can explain that heaven really does exist.

    HideAuthorship

    Alexander is the author of the autobiographical book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife (2012) in which he asserts that his out of body and near death experience (NDE) while in a meningitis-induced coma in 2008 proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, that death is an illusion, and that an eternity of perfect splendor awaits in the afterlife. According to him, the current understanding of the mind “now lies broken at our feet ”— for “What happened to me destroyed it, and I intend to spend the rest of my life investigating the true nature of consciousness and making the fact that we are more, much more, than our physical brains as clear as I can, both to my fellow scientists and to people at large.” Alexander’s book was excerpted in a Newsweek magazine cover story in October 2012.[1] (In May 2012, Alexander had provided a slightly more technical account of the events described in his book in an article, “My Experience in Coma”, in AANS Neurosurgeon, the trade publication of the American Association of Neurological Surgeons.[2])

    Alexander’s book and publicity campaign have been criticized by scientists including neuroscientist Sam Harris who found his account “alarmingly unscientific” and who has written that “Everything — absolutely everything — in Alexander’s account rests on repeated assertions that his visions of heaven occurred while his cerebral cortex was “shut down,” “inactivated,” “completely shut down,” “totally offline,” and “stunned to complete inactivity.” The evidence he provides for this claim is not only inadequate — it suggests that he doesn’t know anything about the relevant brain science.”[3] “Even in cases where the brain is alleged to have shut down, its activity must return if the subject is to survive and describe the experience. In such cases, there is generally no way to establish that the NDE occurred while the brain was offline.”[4]

    In November 2012, Alexander responded to critics in a second Newsweek article: “My synapses—the spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call “consciousness.” The E. coli bacteria that flooded my brain during my illness made sure of that. My doctors have told me that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact.”[5] Alexander also responded, “I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory.”[6]

    As of December 2, 2012, Proof of Heaven has been on the The New York Times Best Seller list for four weeks.[7]

    Close this section
    HideBiography

    Education and training

    Alexander attended Phillips Exeter Academy (class of 1972), University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (A.B., 1975), and the Duke University School of Medicine (M.D., 1980).

    Alexander was an Intern in General Surgery at Duke University Medical Center, a resident at Duke, Newcastle (U.K.) General Hospital. He was a resident and research fellow at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and Massachusetts General Hospital and is certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and the American College of Surgeons (F.A.C.S.).

    Academic and clinical appointments

    Alexander has taught at Duke University Medical Center, Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School, University of Massachusetts Medical School, and the University of Virginia Medical School.

    He has had hospital appointments at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston Children’s Hospital, Dana–Farber Cancer Institute, Massachusetts General Hospital, University of Massachusetts Medical Center, and Lynchburg (Virginia) General Hospital-CentraHealth. He is currently an attending neurosurgeon.

    Professional activities

    Alexander is a member of the American Medical Association and various other professional societies. He has been on the editorial boards of various journals.

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  101. on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:39 pm 101.Lou(DFW) said …

    99.The messenger said …

    “48.Lou(DFW), I was talking about bible passages, you idiot, not events that are happening in modern time.”

    I don’t care what you were talking about. I’m asking you direct, simple questions:

    Where have you explained why your imaginary god allows innocent children to be killed by natural “disasters?”

    How is that part of your imaginary god’s plan?

    Can you answer them or not?

  102. on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:40 pm 102.Lou(DFW) said …

    100.The messenger said …

    “Eben Alexander (author)”

    Wrote fairy tale. So what?

  103. on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:53 pm 103.Anonymous said …

    So, what? It’s a C&P taunt. He’s trying to hide the subject of Xenon and “friends” failure to respond to actual questions and change it to something where he can argue in circles about interpretation and semantics.

  104. on 10 Dec 2012 at 2:48 am 104.Right On said …

    “The only moral consequence is human happiness, according to the atheist, the humanist, and the radical. Not individual human happiness, mind you, but bulk happiness for the chosen population.”

    40YA good to see you back however I can’t agree with this. Atheist/Liberals/Progressives are Never Ever happy. They rather enjoy being angry and bitter. Since they have no purpose, no future and are nihilistic in nature, they have no happiness.

  105. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:34 am 105.The messenger said …

    101.Lou(DFW), I HAVE EXPLAINED T HAT IN MY PREVIOUS comments.

    How stupid are you?

  106. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:35 am 106.Lou(DFW) said …

    104.Wrong Off said …

    “They rather enjoy being angry and bitter. Since they have no purpose, no future and are nihilistic in nature, they have no happiness.”

    Right, just like these xtians:

    http://tinyurl.com/7wlwdgy

    Theists, because they have no future, invent an imaginary god and an imaginary heaven. Because they have no purpose, they invent reasons to hate other people who don’t believe and think as they do. They have no happiness.

  107. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:38 am 107.The messenger said …

    Brother 106.Lou(DFW), the teachings of Christianity have always opposed hate.

    Christianity teaches us to love one another and to live happy and peaceful lives

    God is real.

  108. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:41 am 108.The messenger said …

    Brother 106.Lou(DFW), I sense a lot of anger and pain in you.

    You have a hard time believing in our Father because of the struggles that you and others have had in your life.

    I pray that Jesus will help you find peace and happiness.

  109. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:44 am 109.The messenger said …

    104.Right On well said brother.

    Pray for those unhappy people just as I have, and mane God will bring them happiness.

  110. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:47 am 110.The messenger said …

    In comments 11 and 12 I ment to type the word (maybe), not (made).

    Sorry.

  111. on 10 Dec 2012 at 4:40 am 111.Anti-Theist said …

    There is no life after death. You have not been forgiven.

  112. on 10 Dec 2012 at 5:12 am 112.DPK said …

    on 10 Dec 2012 at 2:48 am 104.Right On said …
    “Atheist/Liberals/Progressives are Never Ever happy. They rather enjoy being angry and bitter. Since they have no purpose, no future and are nihilistic in nature, they have no happiness.”

    You can add that belief to the long list of things you think you know, about which you are completely wrong.

  113. on 10 Dec 2012 at 5:43 am 113.The messenger said …

    112.Anti-Theist, well sense lou(DPK) and DPK tend to throw temper tantrums when ever someone makes a spelling error I thought that it would be wise to calm them down by apologizing.

  114. on 10 Dec 2012 at 6:31 am 114.Hell Yeah said …

    “Christianity teaches us to love one another and to live happy and peaceful lives.”

    We can also love one another and live happy and peaceful lives in a society without religion. Believing in an imaginary friend and imaginary after life is not the only thing keeping people from not. You religous people are so blind with faith that you have to relate things that aren’t necessary relatable.

  115. on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:53 am 115.The messenger said …

    114.Hell Yeah, if atheists are so good and happy why are all Athiests that I see every day always miserable and upset?

    Religion does not blind people.

    The teaching of our savior Jesus Christ have helped so many people become kinder, peace loving, and happier.

    You are the one who is blind.

  116. on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:54 pm 116.Lou(DFW) said …

    110.The messenger said …

    “In comments 11 and 12 I ment to type the word (maybe), not (made).”

    And in this comment you meant to type meant, not “ment,” correct? Also, you obviously don’t understand the correct usage of quotation marks and parenthesis.

    Messenger, because you can’t provide anything of substance that adds to the actual discussion, all that’s left to do is make fun of your over all stupidity.

  117. on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:59 pm 117.Lou(DFW) said …

    113.The messenger said …

    “112.Anti-Theist, well sense [sic] lou(DPK) and DPK tend to throw temper tantrums when ever [sic] someone makes a spelling error I thought that it would be wise to calm them down by apologizing.”

    Actually, it would be wise for you to stop posting stupid comments. And we don’t “throw temper tantrums” whenever you make grammar errors since (because) it further demonstrates your ignorance.

  118. on 10 Dec 2012 at 1:01 pm 118.Lou(DFW) said …

    104.Wrong Off said …

    “Atheist/Liberals/Progressives are Never Ever happy.”

    ASS, are you still trying to imitate me?

  119. on 10 Dec 2012 at 1:08 pm 119.Lou(DFW) said …

    107.The messenger said …

    “Brother 106.Lou(DFW), the teachings of Christianity have always opposed hate.
    Christianity teaches us to love one another and to live happy and peaceful lives”

    Xtianity is a religion of hate. I don’t even have to quote the Old Testament examples. Nor do I have to use the many acts of violence perpetrated in the name of xtianity. I can ignore the xtian idea that nonbelievers will suffer eternal torment if they don’t agree with its message.

    No, Messenger, I could simply post quote after quote of you personally insulting people here on this blog.

    Messenger, you actually do send a message here – that your belief is a fraud and that you personally are a messenger of lies and hate.

  120. on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:56 pm 120.DPK said …

    112.DPK said …

    on 10 Dec 2012 at 2:48 am 104.Right On said …
    “Atheist/Liberals/Progressives are Never Ever happy.

    and even if this ridiculous lie that you pulled completely out of your ass with absolutely no evidence to support is were in fact true, how does that prove the reality of your imaginary god?

    If I made the unsubstantiated claim that all people who don’t believe in Bigfoot are hate filled, miserable bastards, does that mean Bigfoot is therefore real? Even if it were true, would that mean Bigfoot is therefore real? Then why would you even bring it up? Are you trying to PROVE you’re a moron? Don’t bother, we already know that. Point ceded. If, on the other hand, you are trying to prove your imaginary god actually exists, epic fail. What else you got?

    You idiots are gong to insist on rolling out every illogical, discredits, and even downright absurd argument you can think of to try and sidetrack the discussion, aren’t you. It is really pathetic.

  121. on 10 Dec 2012 at 4:30 pm 121.DPK said …

    107.The messenger said …
    “Christianity teaches us to love one another and to live happy and peaceful lives”

    105.The messenger said …

    101.Lou(DFW), How stupid are you?

    99.The messenger said …

    48.Lou(DFW), I was talking about bible passages, you idiot,

    87.The messenger said …
    I know what a scientist is you idiot.

    81.The messenger said …

    5.alex, no it does not you idiot.

    God loves us nomatter who you are.

    What a shining example of god’s love you are…

  122. on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:23 pm 122.Lou(DFW) said …

    121.DPK said …

    “What a shining example of god’s love you are…”

    Unless Messenger is a liar, he is a spokesman for god. So therefore, god isn’t loving and caring.

  123. on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:43 pm 123.The messenger said …

    If you are being stupid I will be honest to you about it.

  124. on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:58 pm 124.The messenger said …

    119.Lou(DFW), my insults are nothing compared to your insults.

    You use cuss words to insult me and other Christians a lot.

    I never cussed once.

  125. on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:01 pm 125.The messenger said …

    122.Lou(DFW), I should not have fallen to your level of immaturity.

    For that I am sorry.

  126. on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:03 pm 126.The messenger said …

    119.Lou(DFW), the events that occurred in the old testament happened before Christianity was started.

  127. on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:12 pm 127.The messenger said …

    117.Lou(DFW), you have made many spelling errors.

    I am mature Enouph not to focus on them and stay focused on the debate.

    I suggest you do the same.

  128. on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:14 pm 128.The messenger said …

    119.Lou(DFW), I speak of peace.

    You are the one who speaks of hate.

  129. on 11 Dec 2012 at 12:42 am 129.The messenger said …

    122.Lou(DFW), Jesus suffered and died for us.

    He does love us.

  130. on 11 Dec 2012 at 3:33 am 130.Lou(DFW) said …

    123.The messenger said …

    “If you are being stupid I will be honest to you about it.”

    Yet you think that those here who commented similarly about you are not being honest.

    It’s not possible for you to be honest about your religion because your entire religion is based upon a lie.

    Do you agree that all the religions in the world except yours are false?

  131. on 11 Dec 2012 at 4:10 am 131.Anti-Theist said …

    I wasn’t talking about your being forgiven here. I was speaking more along the lines of your trespasses. Xtians cannot go around being bigots , thinking their good people on the premise of dilutional forgiveness. You are not forgiven.

  132. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:56 am 132.Severin said …

    115 Messenger
    “Religion does not blind people.”

    So let us all become Muslims!

  133. on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:23 pm 133.Lou(DFW) said …

    126.The messenger said …

    “119.Lou(DFW), the events that occurred in the old testament happened before Christianity was started.”

    Are you saying that xtians can disregard the word of their imaginary god as it appears in the O.T?

  134. on 11 Dec 2012 at 2:22 pm 134.Jay said …

    Believing in God and at least having what your mind tells you is a loving relationship with Him at least gives you hope. I’d rather have false hope than no hope at all.

    A fine example of Pascal’s Wager right there.

  135. on 11 Dec 2012 at 2:46 pm 135.Lou(DFW) said …

    124.The messenger said …

    “119.Lou(DFW), my insults are nothing compared to your insults.
    You use cuss words to insult me and other Christians a lot.”

    Show me where I did that “a lot.”

    “I never cussed once.”

    So what? Who wrote that you did? It’s irrelevant.

    Now, back to my questions:

    Why does your imaginary god allow innocent children to be killed by natural “disasters?” Or to be born with birth defects?

    How is that part of your imaginary god’s plan?

  136. on 11 Dec 2012 at 4:32 pm 136.DPK said …

    Now Lou, don’t you know anything about christians? Jesus taught them to love and lead happy and peaceful lives and to be kind to everyone. That means you can call someone an idiot or stupid, as long as you don’t “cuss”.
    What is wrong with you? Everyone knows that.
    And by “love one another” obviously Jesus meant “other christians”… he didn’t mean we should love atheists who are bound for {[[HELL}}} along with the Muslims, Jews (christ killers), Buddhists, Hindus, Mormons, and all the other pagans and heretics. He certainly doesn’t want us to love them. All that murdering and stoning and stuff was in the old testament… before god changed his mind about all that. You are so dense you don’t understand that.
    God used to want us to kill queers, now he wants us to not kill them, but just explain to them how they are sinners and will burn in hell for eternity. Don’t you see? God used to want us to own slaves, but then he realized that was wrong so now he doesn’t want us to own slaves. If you are confused about all that, it is because you are so very stupid.

  137. on 11 Dec 2012 at 4:37 pm 137.DPK said …

    And, god gives babies birth defects so that we will take care of them and be blessed, and he kills people by the thousands in natural disasters because he needs them in heaven, and the only way to get to heaven in to die, so what’s wrong with that? He lets innocent children starve as a test of their faith. If they can endure starvation without turning away from god, then they are worthy to go to heaven, where they will be rewarded. It’s actually very nice of him, see? How big an idiot are you, gosh darn it? You even cuss, so that proves you are bad.

  138. on 11 Dec 2012 at 6:21 pm 138.Anonymous said …

    Of course it’s nice of Yahweh, if you’d been listening to messenger and not being “stupid” you’d understand.

    Messenger explained that unless the Christian god treated people badly, his subjects wouldn’t be able to appreciate how well he could treat them. How could you not understand this and not see how wonderful this god is being by mistreating people for the benefit of all mankind?

    Bible-god’s behavior has elements in common in concept and execution with how abusers and rapists groom their victims.

  139. on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:19 pm 139.The messenger said …

    132.Severin, I am supporting Christianity and Judaism.

    Not Islam.

  140. on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:23 pm 140.The messenger said …

    138.Anonymous, that is not what I said at all.

    God does not care very much about appreciation.

    God puts struggles in our lives so that we may overcome them.

    He only cares if we are morally good people.

  141. on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:30 pm 141.The messenger said …

    137.DPK, the only reason that he allows that to happen is because he wants us to realize that our outward appearances do not matter.

    Being a good person has nothing to do with looking good on the outside.

  142. on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:35 pm 142.The messenger said …

    137.DPK God does not need anyone in heaven.

    The reason that he allows people to die is because their time on Earth is over.

    Life is a moral test.

    If a person has been good, he or she will go to heaven.

    Heaven is a paridice that never ends.

  143. on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:51 pm 143.The messenger said …

    133.Lou(DFW), no they cannot.

    The old tesiment has some of God’s greatest lessons in it.

    For example, the story of David and Goliath. That story teaches us that even without physical strength you can still stand up for what is right.

    Now tell me, HOW IS THAT EVIL?

  144. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:38 pm 144.Lou(DFW) said …

    141.The messenger said …

    “137.DPK, the only reason that he allows that to happen is because he wants us to realize that our outward appearances do not matter.
    Being a good person has nothing to do with looking good on the outside.”

    DPK, have have ever heard a more nonsensical bunch of convoluted rationalization in your life?

  145. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:43 pm 145.Lou(DFW) said …

    143.The messenger said …

    “133.Lou(DFW), no they cannot.
    The old tesiment has some of God’s greatest lessons in it.”

    The how is your comment “119.Lou(DFW), the events that occurred in the old testament happened before Christianity was started” relevant?

    “For example, the story of David and Goliath. That story teaches us that even without physical strength you can still stand up for what is right.
    Now tell me, HOW IS THAT EVIL?”

    I didn’t write that it was. A logical, rational conversation with you is impossible. Your imaginary god must have intentionally made you stupid and irrational in order for you to “overcome” it.

  146. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:44 pm 146.Lou(DFW) said …

    141.The messenger said …

    “137.DPK, the only reason that he allows that to happen is because he wants us to realize that our outward appearances do not matter.
    Being a good person has nothing to do with looking good on the outside.”

    Are you actually that freaking stupid?! Birth defects include far more than defects in appearance.

  147. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:52 pm 147.The messenger said …

    146.Lou(DFW), the birth defects that involve the brain and muscles are thier to teach us that it does not matter if we are smart or physically strong, god loves us all equally regardless. And eventually we will all be in eternal paridice.

  148. on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:55 pm 148.The messenger said …

    145.Lou(DFW), it seemed like you did not realize that.

    I was just trying to inform you.

  149. on 12 Dec 2012 at 12:07 am 149.The messenger said …

    144.Lou(DFW), explain to me, how is comment 143 nonsensical?

  150. on 12 Dec 2012 at 1:18 am 150.Tom said …

    “A fine example of Pascal’s Wager right there.”

    Why not? The wager has never been lost.

  151. on 12 Dec 2012 at 3:10 am 151.Lou(DFW) said …

    147.Tom said …

    “A fine example of Pascal’s Wager right there.”

    “Why not? The wager has never been lost.”

    It’s always a losing wager. As Sam Harris wrote:

    “But the greatest problem with the wager—and it is a problem that infects religious thinking generally—is its suggestion that a rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence. A person can profess any creed he likes, of course, but to really believe something, he must also believe that the belief under consideration is true. To believe that there is a God, for instance, is to believe that you are not just fooling yourself; it is to believe that you stand in some relation to God’s existence such that, if He didn’t exist, you wouldn’t believe in him. How does Pascal’s wager fit into this scheme? It doesn’t.

    Beliefs are not like clothing: comfort, utility, and attractiveness cannot be one’s conscious criteria for acquiring them. It is true that people often believe things for bad reasons—self-deception, wishful thinking, and a wide variety of other cognitive biases really do cloud our thinking—but bad reasons only tend to work when they are unrecognized. Pascal’s wager suggests that a rational person can knowingly believe a proposition purely out of concern for his future gratification. I suspect no one ever acquires his religious beliefs in this way (Pascal certainly didn’t). But even if some people do, who could be so foolish as to think that such beliefs are likely to be true?”

    Furthermore, it’s a wager than can’t be won because it requires an ante that’s not known to exist – a soul.

  152. on 12 Dec 2012 at 5:33 am 152.Anonymous said …

    “Tom” said, “Why not? The wager has never been lost”

    Prove it.

  153. on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:45 am 153.Severin said …

    115 messenger
    “Religion does not blind people.””

    139 Messenger
    “132.Severin, I am supporting Christianity and Judaism.
    Not Islam.”

    Islam is not religion?

    Can yo ever say anything thtat has any sense?

    Now:
    “Everything that happens to us happens with purpose, it is all a part of our father’s plan”
    The purpose of
    Holocaust
    Starving children
    Etc, etc, etc …is?

  154. on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:58 am 154.Severin said …

    “The outward appearance do not matter”

    God loves him alive or dead.
    That is all that metters.

    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst

  155. on 12 Dec 2012 at 9:51 am 155.alex said …

    152.Anonymous said …

    “Tom” said, “Why not? The wager has never been lost”

    “Prove it.”

    As somebody pointed out, maybe the real God condemns to hell, ONLY the morons who believe in the wrong god. With the many gods to choose from, isn’t it better odds not to pick one?

  156. on 12 Dec 2012 at 11:51 am 156.Anonymous said …

    155 – right, but I am asking him to prove his claim that it has never been lost. It was a clearly stated, now let’s seem him back it up with facts.

  157. on 12 Dec 2012 at 1:06 pm 157.Lou(DFW) said …

    147.The messenger said …

    “146.Lou(DFW), the birth defects that involve the brain and muscles are thier to teach us that it does not matter if we are smart or physically strong, god loves us all equally regardless. And eventually we will all be in eternal paridice.”

    Why doesn’t your imaginary god simply show his love for me?

    My parents loved me. I know that because they directly told me and demonstrated it to me. They didn’t hide it from me. They didn’t beat and starve my siblings as a demonstration of their love for me.

  158. on 12 Dec 2012 at 1:10 pm 158.Lou(DFW) said …

    149.The messenger said …

    “144.Lou(DFW), explain to me, how is comment 143 nonsensical?”

    Because it’s a non sequitur. Just as are the majority of your comments. That’s why it’s impossible to have rational, logical discussion with you.

  159. on 12 Dec 2012 at 1:13 pm 159.Lou(DFW) said …

    140.The messenger said …

    “God puts struggles in our lives so that we may overcome them.”

    How does a starving child overcome the struggle of starvation?

    Why do some people have very few struggles while other people have a disproportionate share?

  160. on 12 Dec 2012 at 3:00 pm 160.Lou(DFW) said …

    140.The messenger said …

    “God does not care very much about appreciation.”

    Yet he will send you to hell if you don’t “appreciate” him.

    “God puts struggles in our lives so that we may overcome them.”

    Stephen Hawking overcame a very great “struggle.” He said “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”

    “He only cares if we are morally good people.”

    Is Stephen Hawking “morally good?”

  161. on 12 Dec 2012 at 5:24 pm 161.Anonymou said …

    I am a Christian. I understand that for this reason many of you will discount my opinion, saying I am delusional, ignorant to the obvious, etc.–especially by those who say there is no way they can be convinced of the existence of God due to the hardness of their hearts. For those who really are on this blog to discover the truth, I say to you that a blog of any kind(Christian or otherwise) is not where you will find it. I would urge you to look to the source of this controversy–the Bible–and decide for yourself if God is real, going in with an open mind and an un-hardened heart. Please allow me to share my faith, as well as pose some questions.

    God never promises to do anything for those who have no faith in him. Why would he? He does, however, promise to listen and work for the good of those who love him. Does this explain why those who are Christians seem to “know” God is real(because they have faith, and love Him)and thus, are the only ones able to see Him working in their lives/answering prayers/performing miracles? To be certain, if one who does not believe asks for something(even in prayer) for his own benefit, God promises this man nothing. God works in response to faith–believing in something without seeing it, believing totally in the almighty power of God that He can do all things. If someone cries out to the Lord, allowing him to show up and believing that he not only has the power to do so, but that he WILL show up and save that person(all this is to say:having FAITH), He will answer. Faith is not believing what you have already seen, it is believing before anything is revealed to you.

    What do nonbelievers say about the miracles Jesus did while on earth, that were documented and seen by thousands of people and written in the Bible?

    Are nonbelievers aware of the miracles of healing that are done EVERY SINGLE DAY by God through the power of prayer and faith?

    These questions lead me to my next point, which is speaking directly to the “ask Jesus to appear” on Godisimaginary.com. Believers would agree that Faith is what allows one to know God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. I believe this is exactly why Jesus will not physically “show up” when we ask that, and that is why I doubt if many believers would pray for that. If Jesus came down to this earth every time someone lost faith and asked him to appear, there would be not reason then to HAVE this faith, which is essential for God to work through. If Jesus showed up every time we asked, would we have charcter? would we try hard? would we love others? or would we expect Him to solve all the problems we encounter… Do we need to have faith to know that cars exist? No. And this is why we don’t see Jesus in this world. Faith is necessary.

    I never like to use rationality to justify my faith, because it is not necessary. I have experienced him do miracles both unseen and PHYSICAL that prove his existence. But, as I suspect many of you on this blog are basing your decision on rationality, I offer these options:

    a. you are Christian and God exists–> eternity in Heaven
    b. you are a Christian and God does not exist–> become a tree/ashes/etc.

    c. you are Atheist and God exists–> eternity in hell
    d. you are Atheist and God does not exist–> become a tree/ashes/etc.

    Therefore, the only RATIONAL choice is the one that allows the possibility of spending an eternity in Heaven. And I assure you, the Heaven of the God of the Universe is far greater than any ‘reincarnation’ or form on this earth.

  162. on 12 Dec 2012 at 6:22 pm 162.DPK said …

    Thank you for sharing your experience. Let me share mine. I was raised a Christian. I have read the bible. I tried to believe, but, since the age of reason, about 13-15, I “knew” it was all a lie, made up stuff. None the less, I gave it my best.. I went to church, I attended prayer meetings, went to retreats. For a while I even tried the born again pentacostals and prayed fervently for Jesus to come into my life and for the Holy Spirit to fill me.
    Nothing happened.
    I read the bible again as an adult, and no single thing cemented by atheism as reading it as a mature adult without some church authority figure either “interpreting” it for me or spoon feeding me the passages they wanted me to hear. It occurred to me that if god was real, he would present his perfect word to mankind in a way that wouldn’t require someone else to tell me what he “really” meant. If he was perfect, his word would be perfect, and if he where real, he wouldn’t have made me with an inability to believe in him.
    So, yes to me, your testament does indeed sound very much like delusion. Basically, what you are saying is that you have to believe without question before you can believe without question. Kind of the cart leading the horse, no?
    As for your restatement of Pascal’s wager… you are missing some key elements to your logic:
    If you are a Christian, and god is real, but not the christian god– eternity in hell.
    If you are christian, and god does not accept belief for the self serving purpose of gaining heaven– eternity in hell. Maybe god rewards honesty more than faith born of fear, ignorance, or delusion. Hmmm?
    If you are a christian, and god does not care whether you believe in him or not… well, your and my fate is the same, whatever it is.
    If you are a christian, and god values the use of the rational function he graced us with more than blind faith which has not served mankind very well, historically… then maybe I get to heaven and YOU go to hell.
    So, your wager is only valid within the narrow confines of some VERY limited “Ifs”… and if any of them are wrong… you loose. Not so rational a choice after all, is it?

  163. on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:29 pm 163.Lou(DFW) said …

    161.Anonymou said …

    “And I assure you, the Heaven of the God of the Universe is far greater than any ‘reincarnation’ or form on this earth.”

    Your “assurance” and your testimony means dick.

    Where is the evidence for your imaginary god?

  164. on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:46 pm 164.G said …

    Pascal was absolutely correct. From a perspective of logic only, if God is not real, atheists and Christians get the same fate. If Christians are correct, well, they obviously enjoy a wonderful fate.

    Atheists will muddy the waters with irrelevant comments but Pascal was only comparing the two worldviews.

  165. on 12 Dec 2012 at 8:26 pm 165.Lou(DFW) said …

    164.G said …

    “Pascal was absolutely correct.”

    Correct about what? That an imaginary god can be fooled by feigned belief?

    “Atheists will muddy the waters with irrelevant comments but Pascal was only comparing the two worldviews.”

    Actually, it’s theists who “muddy the water” by refusing to provide evidence for their imaginary god, but who rather argue over diversionary tangents.

  166. on 12 Dec 2012 at 8:35 pm 166.DPK said …

    No, Pascal was only correct if the Christian God of the bible is real, AND if he behaves only the way that Pascal expects him to behave, then sure. But tell us something… how does one “decide” to believe?
    I doubt the Christian god of the bible, who is by all accounts a jealous and vindictive s.o.b, is going to be fooled by anyone claiming to believe in him “just to be safe”. So, in that aspect, Pascal fails… miserably. I mean, claiming to believe in Santa isn’t the same as actually believing in Santa, is it now? And claiming to believe in god because it seems like a safer bet… which is what Pascal’s Wager proposes… well, that ain’t gonna work, is it?
    Only an idiot would think it would fool the almighty.
    And, if you get to heaven and Zeus is waiting for you, you’re fucked.
    Then there is the problem of you living the only life you have in servitude to and in fear of a completely imaginary being. So, on the chance of a 2nd life, you waste the one you actually have? Not too smart. But then again, nobody here is suggesting theists are particularly smart.

  167. on 12 Dec 2012 at 8:56 pm 167.The messenger said …

    160.Lou(DFW), Jesus will not send you to hell if you do not appreciate him.

    He will only sed you to hell if you break his laws and are not sorry about it.

  168. on 12 Dec 2012 at 8:59 pm 168.The messenger said …

    153.Severin, I have answered that question many times in my previous comments.

    Stop asking me the same questions over and over.

  169. on 12 Dec 2012 at 9:03 pm 169.The messenger said …

    166.DPK, Jesus is not jealous or evil.

    He is never vengeful.

    He doesnot punish, he only teaches.

  170. on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:17 pm 170.alex said …

    “Faith is necessary.”

    yeah, for idiots. with all your scary hell shit, have you ever heard of one atheist that converted because of your bullshit pascal’s bet?

    you don’t have to be a genius to dismiss similar wagers regarding muslim heaven, hindu heaven, or any other bullshit heaven. it’s a fantasy, with all the virgins, multiple wives, no suffering, seeing loved ones, et all. bunches of bullshit.

    if pascal’s wager is true, why do you think atheists won’t bet? i guess i should bet on santa, since i’ve got nothing to lose. and the tooth fairy and the great pumpkin, and on, and on…..

  171. on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:20 pm 171.MrQ said …

    From G:

    a. you are Christian and (a Christian) God exists–> eternity in Heaven (if you choose the proper branch of Christianity to show your reverance (Or does a Baptist = a Mormon = Catholic = Koreshian = free pass))
    b. you are a Christian and God does not exist–> become a tree/ashes/etc.

    c. you are Atheist and (a Christian) God exists–> eternity in hell
    d. you are Atheist and (a Christian) God does not exist–> become a tree/ashes/etc.

    (My additions/revisions in brackets)

    Slightly modified again, we get only two options:
    a. you are a Christian and a Muslim God exists–> eternity in Hell
    b. you are any living creature and God does not exist–> become a tree/ashes/etc.

    Looks like we’re all fucked. Does it not Mr G?

  172. on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:52 pm 172.The messenger said …

    157.Lou(DFW), Jesus show you his love by letting you live and giving you friends and family and people who care about you.

    If he did not love you, he would take all of that away and send you to Hell.

    Be thankful for your the gifts that you have been given.

  173. on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:09 am 173.Anonymous said …

    So, we are hearing that one of the best argument we have for Christianity is “well, just in case”.

    Unfortunately, the odds for any particular sect or denomination of any religion (others make the same case, and there are thousands of possible gods and tens of thousands (40, 000+) different denominations) mean that the wager only serves as a post-hoc rationalization.

    At the end of the day, if someone needs to excuse the total lack of evidence for why a bronze-age superstition is anything but myth and fairytale with “what if your’re wrong?”, then they are only interested in emotional arguments anyway.

  174. on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:25 am 174.Anonymous said …

    By the way, to the Christian who posted earlier, an open-mind and unhardened heart in your book means believing any old shit particularly if it is contrary to reality. The other way to describe it is being hopelessly gullible

  175. on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:57 am 175.DPK said …

    So, we are hearing that one of the best argument we have for Christianity is “well, just in case”.

    Actually, it’s the “last ditch” argument for Christianity. The fall back position when they realize everything else is bullshit. ” better safe than sorry,” and the “what have you got to lose?” argument. But, like most of what they offer, falls completely apart when considered with a rational mind.

  176. on 13 Dec 2012 at 2:23 am 176.Right Again said …

    “From a perspective of logic only, if God is not real, atheists and Christians get the same fate. If Christians are correct, well, they obviously enjoy a wonderful fate.”

    G just one of the many shortcomings of atheism. Atheism takes the ultimate risk that creation was created by the god know as natural selection/magical big bangs and that man has no spirit that lives on. Pascal was brilliant and he realized logically Christianity is a better wager and showed that. But not just better logically but also practically, relationally and metaphysically.

  177. on 13 Dec 2012 at 2:26 am 177.Right Again said …

    “Unfortunately, the odds for any particular sect or denomination of any religion (others make the same case, and there are thousands of possible gods and tens of thousands (40, 000+) different denominations) mean that the wager only serves as a post-hoc rationalization.”

    Anony fails to post a valid thought. However, if he/she would like to try again show us the math for these odds you began to share.

  178. on 13 Dec 2012 at 2:31 am 178.alex said …

    “Atheism takes the ultimate risk that creation was created by the god know as natural selection/magical big bangs and that man has no spirit that lives on”

    you a lyin bitch. where did you get that? from your ass, just like your god?

  179. on 13 Dec 2012 at 3:33 am 179.Anonymous said …

    172 sigh. Fresh sock puppet, same old shit. I apologize if you need help in understanding what tens of thousands mean. I’ll try to write down to your level next time.

  180. on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:14 am 180.Lou(DFW) said …

    172.The messenger said …

    “157.Lou(DFW), Jesus show you his love by letting you live and giving you friends and family and people who care about you.”

    What about people who lost in a tornado their “friends and family and people who care about” them? How is that an expression of love?

    “If he did not love you, he would take all of that away and send you to Hell.”

    First you say that we must overcome struggles when he takes those things from us. But you also say if he didn’t love us then he would “take all of that away.”

    “Be thankful for your the gifts that you have been given.”

    But the people who are NOT given gifts should also be thankful?

    And how are the starving children or people drowned or made homeless by a tsunami to be thankful?

  181. on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:22 am 181.Lou(DFW) said …

    176.Right Again (ASS) said to G (ASS)…

    “Atheism takes the ultimate risk that creation was created by the god know as natural selection/magical big bangs and that man has no spirit that lives on.”

    First of all, ASS, you liar, those are not tenets of “atheism.” Second, they are not risks. Third, you don’t have any evidence at all that man has a “spirit that lives on.”

    “Pascal was brilliant and he realized logically Christianity is a better wager and showed that. But not just better logically but also practically, relationally [sic] and metaphysically.”

    Ah, the tired, old, appeal to authority argument fallacy. But, let’s use your tactic – Stephen Hawking is much more brilliant than was Pascal, and he disputes all of your sky-daddy delusion. So by your own reasoning, you lose.

  182. on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:25 am 182.Lou(DFW) said …

    177.Right Again said …

    “However, if he/she would like to try again show us the math for these odds you began to share.”

    Yes, please show ASStrophysicist how to do some simple math. He’s too ignorant to understand something so simple.

  183. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:14 am 183.MrQ said …

    right again:

    just one of the many shortcomings of atheism. Atheism takes the ultimate risk that creation was created by the god know as natural selection/magical big bangs and that man has no spirit that lives on.

    And if we examine the evidence we see that the universe is indeed expanding, almost as if it started from a very much smaller “size” some 10+ billion years ago. Much research and observation (just look into “Hubble Space Telescope”, for example) takes away the “magical” of the big bang. Maybe god was the “magical” spark, just show me the proof.

    Please expand, if you would, on the spirit of men that lives on. Is this an essence that is only applicable to humans? As a bonus, let the audience (and myself) know what you believe the age of the Earth to be. Let’s see where this gets us!!

  184. on 13 Dec 2012 at 7:11 am 184.Hell Yeah said …

    “115.The messenger said …
    114.Hell Yeah, if atheists are so good and happy why are all Athiests that I see every day always miserable and upset?

    Religion does not blind people.
    The teaching of our savior Jesus Christ have helped so many people become kinder, peace loving, and happier.
    You are the one who is blind.”

    Wouldn’t you be miserable and upset once you realize the truth that there is no afterlife? Religion blinds people in the reality that there is no afterlife. It makes them think they will live on in some form after they are dead, so they then have a care free life and not afraid of dying. All religions are made up so people don’t panic about their own demise. And besides, you are wrong that all athiests that you see are miserable and upset….you probably see a lot of happy ones that don’t shout out to the world that they are athiests, so you don’t even know they are athiests and you blindly walk by them.

  185. on 13 Dec 2012 at 7:31 am 185.Hell Yeah said …

    “164.G said …
    Pascal was absolutely correct. From a perspective of logic only, if God is not real, atheists and Christians get the same fate. If Christians are correct, well, they obviously enjoy a wonderful fate.”

    But if god is not real, Christians miss out on the things in life that atheists get to experience….the things you Christians think of as sins, which really aren’t…..and I am not talking about the things we both can agree are bad regardless of religion or not. Remember, we only live once. Why use your only time to miss out on things because you have false hope of something that will never happen. Enjoy life while you can. And don’t say doing all the religous stuff is fun…because you only think it is fun because you think you are getting a reward for it, but once you realize there is no reward, it isn’t fun anymore…..and don’t say being nice and kind because of religion is your reward, because you can have that without religion. Religion is just a mask.

  186. on 13 Dec 2012 at 11:50 am 186.Right Again & Again said …

    “Enjoy life while you can.”

    Ah, the same old tired argument. “Christians don’t enjoy life because they believe in God” lol!

    I enjoy life abundantly!

    Thelma-Lou, look up the definition of appeal to authority my boy. If you used it correctly I would be impressed.

    Anony, still looking for the mathematics. Back up your claims there cowboy. Remember to show how you work on how you assign equal value to each worldview including yours.

  187. on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:53 pm 187.Lou(DFW) said …

    186.Right Again & Again said …

    “Ah, the same old tired argument. “Christians don’t enjoy life because they believe in God” lol!”

    ASS, you liar. Show us where anybody wrote that.

    It’s simply amazing that you think that you can post outright lies and get away with them.

  188. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:00 pm 188.Lou(DFW) said …

    186.Right Again (ASS) & Again (ASS) said …

    “Thelma-Lou, look up the definition of appeal to authority my boy.”

    ASS, I did. There’s no such thing as “appeal to authority my boy.”

    But your use of “brilliant” Pascal to support your argument that god is real is an “appeal to authority,” not an “”appeal to authority my boy.”

  189. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:03 pm 189.Lou(DFW) said …

    186.Right, ASS Again & Again said …

    “I enjoy life abundantly!”

    So do little children who know nothing about the reality of the world and who believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but that doesn’t mean that imaginary beings are real.

  190. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:04 pm 190.RevWillyNilly said …

    “161.Anonymou said …

    I understand that for this reason many of you will discount my opinion, saying I am delusional, ignorant to the obvious, etc.–especially by those who say there is no way they can be convinced of the existence of God due to the hardness of their hearts.”

    This seems to be a common misconception amongst theists. I can’t speak for all atheists, but I personally never say that there is no way I can be convinced of the existence of God. I just don’t find your “proof” particularly convincing. If God were to appear right beside me in my living room right now (He is all-powerful after all, no?), I’d have little choice but to believe. Of course, according to you, something like this would be impossible since you need faith to believe in God and actually KNOWING God exists would eliminate the need for faith (makes sense).

    “If Jesus showed up every time we asked, would we have character? Would we try hard? Would we love others?”

    I have character. I work hard (sometimes). I even love others. Yet, I don’t have faith. So why do I possess these qualities? Because I was raised by decent parents who taught me how to love and work hard, which (among other things) builds character. And the craziest part about it? I didn’t even have to have faith that my parents existed… I KNEW they existed. My dad wasn’t hiding in the closest and using my mother as a messenger to teach me all these things.

    “God never promises to do anything for those who have no faith in him. Why would he?”

    Because He loooooves us, remember?

    The rest of your post is a bunch of nonsense and not even worth responding to. You’ve got faith in God and are able to see all the miracles He performs? Great. Put your faith into Joe Pesci (to paraphrase George Carlin) and I’m sure you’ll continue to see all those miracles… But only if you TRULY have faith in Joe Pesci.

  191. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:14 pm 191.Lou(DFW) said …

    184.Hell Yeah said …

    “Religion blinds people in the reality that there is no afterlife. It makes them think they will live on in some form after they are dead, so they then have a care free life and not afraid of dying.”

    I must disagree to some extent with you about that.

    First, it’s obvious that they ARE afraid of dying. Theists exhibit the same anguish and despair as they approach their death or when their loved ones die.

    Second, they continue to lead lives of crime and sin despite the threat of hell, but they rationalize it by thinking they will be forgiven simply by confessing their sins and/or accepting Jesus as their “savior.”

  192. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:20 pm 192.Lou(DFW) said …

    190.RevWillyNilly said …

    “This seems to be a common misconception amongst theists. I can’t speak for all atheists, but I personally never say that there is no way I can be convinced of the existence of God.”

    Exactly. I can easily be convinced that god exists if he simply revealed himself to me. The idea that we can’t be convinced is simply another theist lie that’s used to support their delusion.

    Faith is the foundation of religion. KNOWING that god exists would completely eliminate faith. Ironic, isn’t it?

  193. on 13 Dec 2012 at 1:54 pm 193.alex said …

    “an open-mind and unhardened heart”

    what a fucken joke. if budda, zeus, allah, or ra showed up and proved they’re god, i’ll be the first to acknowledge. can you idiot theists say the same thing? open mind to gender equality, no? homosexuality, no? but you like that stoning shit, yes?

    you still doubtful, i can be convinced? i said before, to convince me doesn’t take much. just regenerate ONE motherfucken limb. easy for a god.

  194. on 13 Dec 2012 at 2:17 pm 194.Anti-Theist said …

    Murder, steal, lie, rape, and discriminate with a smile. This world is meaningless and your going to heaven.

  195. on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:17 pm 195.Hell Yeah said …

    “First, it’s obvious that they ARE afraid of dying. Theists exhibit the same anguish and despair as they approach their death or when their loved ones die.”

    I suppose the threat of hell if they don’t fulfill their religion, or the fact that they could be wrong about an afterlife. But those who have it drilled in their head that they will for sure be going to heaven, they don’t have to worry about dying as much…..that was more of the point I was making. I do understand your point as well, though.

  196. on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:32 pm 196.Anonymous said …

    oh look, right or right-again just outed himself again by carrying on an argument and his predicted insults, but in his case it’s more like a vendetta, that he started as a different sick-puppet [sic].

    You are in no position to demand anything of anyone here. You only do it to derail the conversation. So, produce evidence for your god, answer the questions you ran away from by posing as another identity, or just plain go away. Folks, it’s about time we just ignored this clown. An honest discussion with this game-player isn’t going to happen.

  197. on 13 Dec 2012 at 5:20 pm 197.Lou(DFW) said …

    196.Anonymous said …

    “Folks, it’s about time we just ignored this clown. An honest discussion with this game-player isn’t going to happen.”

    Yes, it’s obviously A the ASStrophysicist.

    And yes, an honest discussion with him is impossible because he’s a pathological liar.

  198. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:14 pm 198.Anon 161 said …

    162 DPK

    “Kind of cart leading the horse, no?” Sure, call it what you want. The point is that if it were the other way around, the problems we have today would pale in comparison to those we would experience if the “horse lead the cart”.

    God doesn’t answer every prayer(such as appearing as physical proof of his existence, which YES HE COULD DO) because his wisdom is far greater than ours. Consider a child that wants something, say to eat candy for breakfast. He thinks this is in his best interest if he gets it(he will be happy and satisfied).When this child comes to his father and asks for candy for breakfast, the father would say no because in his wisdom that far surpasses his child, he knows that eating candy for breakfast is not best.

    We are the child, and God is the Father. Our mistake as humans is thinking we know what is in our best interest–we DO NOT. We assume we have(or should) have control over everything, but we don’t. And isn’t this particularly contradictory to a world that is random, one without divine creation/plan?

  199. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:22 pm 199.DPK said …

    But lying for Jesus doesn’t count…….
    It’s right there in the Christian code of morality on page_____, uh, page _____, wait, I know it was right here on page ____, oh no, that’s the stone the adulterers, wait, kill all the first born males, no, rip open the pregnant women, stone those who work on the sabbath… nope, how to beat your slaves… hmmm… can’t seem to find it right now, but obviously, god meant it was ok to lie as long as the lie helped promote christianity and spread peace and love. Once you learn to interpret “Thou shalt not bear false witness”… in context… you’ll understand. Or maybe you won’t since as an atheist, you are completely amoral.

  200. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:26 pm 200.Help said …

    Trying to understand the non Christian perspective; would someone please answer a few questions:

    I wonder, when atheists feel especially thankful, who do you thank?

    Why do you waste the only life you have to life trying to convince Christians that there is no God?

    What do you say to the ‘humility theory of wisdom’? ie. someone is wise when he/she understands that they are not wise? Do Atheist dispute this? It seems that Christians are more willing to admit they do not know anything compared to divine wisdom, while Atheists seem to have it all figured out. Anyone care to provide an alternate view?

  201. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:43 pm 201.evidence said …

    If those of you looking for evidence will only accept as evidence of God’s existence Jesus coming down so that people may physically see him, i’m sorry to say that you are about 2000 years late for his(miraculous) resurrection–and He will only be coming once, nobody but God knows when that will be, and it will be a sad day for those who chose to deny Him.

    If you are willing to consider miraculous healing as evidence of God then you must only seek out testimonies(on/off the internet), which are not difficult to find.

    If you are willing to consider well-documented history, read the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John. The miracles Jesus did while on this earth were WITNESSED by thousands, recorded, and you can read them by simply opening up a Bible.

    If you really do want evidence, I suggest actually doing these things. If you don’t, you should simply respond to this blog without allowing yourself to see proof of the existence of God.

  202. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:49 pm 202.Lou(DFW) said …

    200.Helpless said …

    “I wonder, when atheists feel especially thankful, who do you thank?”

    Depends. Thankful for what? And how is it relevant to you? When Muslims feel thankful, who do they thank?

    “Why do you waste the only life you have to life trying to convince Christians that there is no God?”

    I don’t.

    “What do you say to the ‘humility theory of wisdom’? ie. someone is wise when he/she understands that they are not wise?”

    I say what xtians say about the so-called theory of evolution – IT’S ONLY A THEORY!

    “Do Atheist dispute this?”

    I can’t speak for all individual atheists.

    “It seems that Christians are more willing to admit they do not know anything compared to divine wisdom, while Atheists seem to have it all figured out. Anyone care to provide an alternate view?”

    Try to understand something – an atheist is the rejection in the belief of your imaginary god – that’s all. It doesn’t provide an “alternate view.”

    Now, Helpless, a question for you: where is your evidence for your imaginary god?

  203. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:55 pm 203.Lou(DFW) said …

    201.lack of evidence said …

    “If you really do want evidence, I suggest actually doing these things.”

    Translation: Do what I do – accept myths, fairy tails, and lies as evidence. Accept belief in an imaginary god on faith.

    Oh, and ignore all the myths, fairy tails, and lies that are part of all the other religions that lack of evidence rejects because they are myths, fairy tails, and lies.

  204. on 13 Dec 2012 at 6:56 pm 204.Anonymous said …

    198, your answer is one of complete invention, absent facts to support it.

    Did you know that DPK can fly and Lou(DFW) can see through walls? They won’t show you though because it is wisest that you just accept that on faith. Now that’s something you are going to rightly reject as nonsense, yet you make exactly the same argument for your god in order to reject the obvious. He doesn’t exist. I can make any number of extravagant claims and excuse them in that manner. That’s why the burden of proof is in you to prove that your god is real. You cannot, so the religious retreat behind a wall of untestable excuses.

    Likewise, do you really think your analogy works? Let me put your analog in its correct setting.

    A child is shut in a room. It has a dark smelly tunnel with a sign “dangerous exit, here be dragons” and a slot in a door marked “requests for daddy”. There is no food or water but there is a pile of envelopes, paper, and some pens.

    Being afraid of dying the child writes on the paper “Dear daddy, I pray that you send me food and water”, he seals them and posts them through the slot. He does this every day and every day there is no answer. Each day the child says to himself “the dragons will kill me if I try to ecape, but daddy loves me and will rescue me or send me food”.

    Many years later some people come across the room. Outside it are a pile of hand written requests sealed in envelopes, all unread. In the room is a child who has died from starvation. At the other end is a tunnel that leads directly to the outside, but no evidence of dragons is to be found. The door is unlocked and always had been.

    That’s your analog. You seem bright enough that you can work on the metaphors yourself.

  205. on 13 Dec 2012 at 7:57 pm 205.Anonymous said …

    You know it really is deceitful, although maybe not always intentionally, the way so many Christians come here with their loaded questions, then rarely stick around to providing what ought to be easy; evidence that this supposed being that so many claim as a personal relationship exists.

    So what kind of nonsense is it to ask who does one thank? When I am sick, the doctor for spending at least 8 hard years to gain the knowledge to help us; the farmer for his produce; scientists for our many advances, and so on. Who do you thank when you find your car keys or someone returns the wallet you dropped in the street? I thank that person. From the question above, I presume that Help insults the efforts of the participants by the bronze-age practice of attributing those efforts to magical beings in the sky?

    “Evidence”, you keep using that word, I don’t think it means what you think it means. This practice of equivocation is one of the many ways that the religious use to demonize people so as to avoid the real discussion. It goes hand-in-hand with false appeals to being “open-minded” and emotional arguments such as “hardened heart”.

    You also don’t understand how real academics research history, nor who actually wrote those books, nor when, nor how the Bible came to be in its present form, and you seem completely at odds with the concept of fiction, particularly if you engage in the circular argument of the Bible being proof of the Bible being true because the Bible says it is true.

    The above sounds more harsh than intended, so I’ll sum it up as that you are probably regurgitating the standard “take that, atheist” arguments from your preacher and you have never taken the time to look at your religion with a anything other than a need to reassure yourself that your religion is “true”. Conversely, you probably have no problem in recognizing Islam as false or Zeus as imaginary. Both odd, as the actual evidence for those to be “true” is exactly the same as for Christianity. Zero.

  206. on 13 Dec 2012 at 8:33 pm 206.Anonymous said …

    “Humility of wisdom” with regard to religion, you must be joking. Perhaps you are just another wind-up artist?

    Yours is the position that attempts to replace the unknown with “godditit”. Religion is the cancer that seeks to stem the expression of knowledge in any way other than a preformed reply. The theist “you can’t explain xxx therefore god” isn’t humility – it’s arrogance.

  207. on 13 Dec 2012 at 8:36 pm 207.Lou(DFW) said …

    98.Anon 161 said …

    “We assume we have(or should) have control over everything, but we don’t.”

    Who is we? Why would we assume such a thing?

    “And isn’t this particularly contradictory to a world that is random, one without divine creation/plan?”

    No. Why would it be?

  208. on 13 Dec 2012 at 8:53 pm 208.DPK said …

    200.Help said …

    “Trying to understand the non Christian perspective; would someone please answer a few questions:”
    “I wonder, when atheists feel especially thankful, who do you thank?”

    Depends on what. I thank my parents for proving me with good values, a safe upbringing, an education… somethings I thank my wife, family, teachers, employees, co-workers. I thank whoever is deserving of thanks. Who do you thank? An imaginary being you have never met or encountered, except in your imagination? Why not thank a lucky horseshoe, your invisible 6 foot rabbit that lives in your basement, or perhaps even “Lady Luck”? Serious question… why aren’t you thankful to any of THESE entities?

    Why do you waste the only life you have to life trying to convince Christians that there is no God?

    I don’t. Please note that YOU are here, on an atheist website… I am not over on “God Actually DOES Heal Amputees” trying to convince you of anything. But, since you are here on a discussion forum, I assume you are here to discuss… and why would I want to explain to you why I believe there is no god? Simply because it is true… and what is true actually matters, that’s all. The pursuit of truth is hardly “wasting your life.”

    What do you say to the ‘humility theory of wisdom’? ie. someone is wise when he/she understands that they are not wise?

    Well as has been pointed out to you there is no “Atheist theory” of anything. Atheists are as diverse in philosophy and ideology as group, the only difference is they disbelieve in one more god than you do. Curious you try to grab the moniker of being humble and acknowledging you are not wise, when it is religions, not science, that always makes claims to know things they do not know. In keeping with your humble lack of wisdom that you claim, will you admit that you do not, in fact know that your god exists? Will you admit that you do not know how the universe came to be, how life originated on this world, that there is in fact a life that continues after death? Will you admit that you do not KNOW these things?

    Do Atheist dispute this? It seems that Christians are more willing to admit they do not know anything compared to divine wisdom, while Atheists seem to have it all figured out. Anyone care to provide an alternate view?

    I don’t know any atheists who claim to have it “all figured out”. Maybe there are some, maybe not. I know many many religious people from all different faiths who do claim to have it all figured out… and they all disagree with one another. The ONLY thing I see atheists agree on is that there is no evidence to suggest that the christian god, or any other magical, transcendent god, in fact exists. That’s it… nothing more.

  209. on 13 Dec 2012 at 9:12 pm 209.The messenger said …

    180.Lou(DFW), eventually those people will be reunighted with their families in heaven.

  210. on 13 Dec 2012 at 9:21 pm 210.evidence said …

    Lou(DFW)…

    My statements do not require translation. I, and I presume you as well, would like my words to be taken for what they are instead of read through a tinted lens that applies a twisted connotation. If we cannot get past these things and continue a dialogue of empty rhetoric(which, in saying so, I am self-accusatory) instead of content, then the discourse is meaningless.

    Here is my question. What might be considered “real evidence”? A simple answer would be appreciated.

    As I said before, Jesus will not be coming again until his final return. If this is the only thing that would be considered evidence, the discussion can go no further. For those who require this and this alone, my heart breaks for you.

  211. on 13 Dec 2012 at 10:11 pm 211.Anonymous said …

    Evidence, any day now, the flying spaghetti monster is going to appear to all the people of the world at once. No one knows the exact date and time, but it’s absolutely going to happen. Now prove me wrong.

  212. on 13 Dec 2012 at 10:44 pm 212.Lou(DFW) said …

    208.lack of evidence said …

    “My statements do not require translation.”

    Yes, they do because you attempt to disguise them. Nothing you wrote is anything other than as I described.

    “If we cannot get past these things and continue a dialogue of empty rhetoric(which, in saying so, I am self-accusatory) instead of content, then the discourse is meaningless.”

    Translation: If you don’t accept as fact anything that I write, then I won’t answer your questions (honestly).

    You created a condition wherein you won’t accept a discussion that refutes your comments.

    “Here is my question. What might be considered “real evidence”? A simple answer would be appreciated.”

    A simple miracle or answer to a prayer for which this blog and its site is named:

    Heal (spontaneously regrow the limbs) of an amputee.

    “If this is the only thing that would be considered evidence, the discussion can go no further.”

    Translation: I will not allow “real evidence” because I will lose my argument.

    Yes, you and your fairy tale story book have a built-in excuse. Does it sound familiar? Kiddies, if you aren’t asleep in bed with your eyes shut, then neither Santa nor the Tooth Fairy will visit you!

  213. on 13 Dec 2012 at 10:51 pm 213.Right On said …

    “You are in no position to demand anything of anyone here.”

    Anony, shame on you. You made another baseless claim on this thread and you cannot back it up again. I actually ask questions based on the comments the atheists make.

    I am the former A? Gosh, you think!! I made it about as obvious as possible!! lol!! I thought the name Thelm-Lou would make it quite obvious but if you need to feel like you cracked the case Columbo then congratulations! lol!

    Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?

    Instead of worrying about names why don’t you provide the math to back up your claim:

    “Unfortunately, the odds for any particular sect or denomination of any religion (others make the same case, and there are thousands of possible gods and tens of thousands (40, 000+) different denominations) mean that the wager only serves as a post-hoc rationalization.”

    And do it post-haste!

  214. on 13 Dec 2012 at 10:54 pm 214.Right On said …

    “You know it really is deceitful, although maybe not always intentionally, the way so many Christians come here with their loaded questions,”

    Anony what a hypocrite. You mean like making this statement with no supporting data?

    “Unfortunately, the odds for any particular sect or denomination of any religion (others make the same case, and there are thousands of possible gods and tens of thousands (40, 000+) different denominations) mean that the wager only serves as a post-hoc rationalization.”

    Oh, and may we have you define Christian please?

  215. on 13 Dec 2012 at 11:32 pm 215.MrQ said …

    From Ben, #69 (oh, how I love that number ;-) )

    Warranted fear is actually moral. If a bear is about to attack and we run out of fear that is certainly moral.

    This statement makes an assumption that you actually know what god wants. For example: A god could have sent the bear towards you so that it could survive, feed it’s cub(s), and give you passage to the promised land. As an added bonus, your life would serve as a reminder to fellow believers that god is great. As the bear attacks you could pray for your life and god would quickly answer the prayer with a YES or NO (MAYBE LATER is lesser of an option). So, to resist the attack is to go AGAINST the will of god, which is amoral and punishable by an eternity in (((HELL))).

    For you the only true way to know god’s will is to stay and pray. As an atheist, I have the option of running or shooting and killing the bear. You cannot, as a believer, test god. If he wants you to live, he will allow you to survive the attack.

    Silly Ben. Pretending to understand the mind of god. Sheeesh!

  216. on 13 Dec 2012 at 11:55 pm 216.alex said …

    “Oh, and may we have you define Christian please?”

    back to derailing, eh? fail. prove your god please. this is a nonbeliever site, remember? your shit is just that, until you back it up.

  217. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:22 am 217.Cuilor said …

    Anonymous (very creative) seems to consider post-hoc analysis as an unconstructive activity. All historical sciences rely on post-hoc data analysis. A posteriori (post-hoc)tests significantly develop the array and potential of techniques that can be applied in investigative research.

  218. on 14 Dec 2012 at 2:21 am 218.Duh said …

    “Oh, and may we have you define Christian please?”

    Someone who is tired of searching their name on the internet and recieving only religion-related results.

  219. on 14 Dec 2012 at 3:44 am 219.Lou(DFW) said …

    213.Wrong As Usual said …

    “I am the former A? Gosh, you think!! I made it about as obvious as possible!!”

    As you with all your other sock-puppets. Why admit it this time after the other times that you were busted? Why do it all? There’s something wrong with you.

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    No, not at all.

    ASS, you really are a psycho.

  220. on 14 Dec 2012 at 3:55 am 220.Lou(DFW) said …

    213.Right On said …

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    Speaking of him, it reminds of something he used to write about you (IIRC). He wrote that you are the pigeon on the chessboard who knocks over all the pieces, shits on it, and then claims victory.

  221. on 14 Dec 2012 at 4:00 am 221.Anonymous said …

    Poor kiddo, busted again for being a sock puppet and trying the “but I wasn’t really” and “other people do it” along with your trademark pettiness, name calling, hypocrisy, projection, and attempts to derail the conversation with demands in order to excuse yourself from being anything remotely approaching honest.

    It also seems your computer literacy is below even using a simple Internet search engine. Yet you have claimed to be an astrophysicist.

    But to add to your embarrassing blunders, I’ll help you out. Really though, and it just proves that no matter how many times you change your name in order to hide, or try to gang up on people with your false pretense of support, you are nothing but a curmudgeon desperately trying to find relevance in a world where a personal relationship with an imaginary friend is something you should have discarded after preschool.

    http://bit.ly/SlIs0o

    Now let’s dispense with your high school level games and see you prove that your god exists. Should be so easy were it true.

  222. on 14 Dec 2012 at 7:04 am 222.Severin said …

    172 Messenger
    “If he did not love you, he would take all of that away and send you to Hell.”

    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst

    This creature is already in hell.
    Jesus obviously took everything from this child. Even hope.
    Why does Jesus hate this child?

  223. on 14 Dec 2012 at 8:34 am 223.Severin said …

    ““And isn’t this particularly contradictory to a world that is random, one without divine creation/plan?”

    Who said “world” (universe) was random?

    It is not. It is ruled by very precise laws of physics that never fail.
    Just put a glass of water on your table and observe what will happen: it will evaporate after some time, PRECISELY depending on temperature and pressure. In summer, it will evaporate faster, in winter, it will evaporate slower, but it WILL EVAPORATE. No exception, ever.

    If that water sometimes evaporates and sometimes not, you could call universe random.
    But it WILL evaporate, without a single exception, from now to eternity.

    If you jump from a building, and sometimes got back to the roof, and sometimes ended on the streeet, you could call the universe random.
    But, if you do that, there is no chance to get beck, you will ALWAYS end on the street.

    Does it look like soemthing random to you?

  224. on 14 Dec 2012 at 11:08 am 224.The messenger said …

    221.Severin, Hell is far worse than that. The fact that thier are people who are trying to help those starving children is a sign that Jesus loves them.

    If Jesus didn’t love them, he would take all of those kind people who are trying to help and he would send them away. God has allowed people like us to help the less fortunate people of the world.

  225. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:14 pm 225.Right Once Again said …

    Oh anonymous, you are such a big boy! You are just like Columbo!!

    This handle is mine too in case you couldn’t follow the trail. Lol!!

    But you’re right, the Right man is sad Nanny……you pegged me Nanny………Pegged me good……….I know, my life is so sad……….you saw right through me…..….my life is WWGHA and I have nothing else……….it is a depressing existence……….but enough about me back to your claim on the thread.

    Your diversions are not working but they do deserve awk!!! You, DPK and Thelma-Lou are three peas in a pod.

    Back to YOUR claim. Where is your math Nanny? Show us the math that supports this”

    “Unfortunately, the odds”

    What are the Odds Nanny and how did you develop the odds? Um, er, you do know that many many many of the same denominations believe in the same God, right? Just wanted to give you a hint before you and Lindsay do the math ?

  226. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:14 pm 226.Lou(DFW) said …

    209.The messenger said …

    “180.Lou(DFW), eventually those people will be reunighted [sic] with their families in heaven.”

    First of all, why must they be reunited? Why were they violently murdered and separated to begin with, all at the hand of your angry imaginary god? Just so he can get some perverted pleasure from reuniting them?

    Second, you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is a heaven and that they will be reunited.

    It’s funny to watch you run around in circles like a dog chasing its tail. But in your case, it’s a three-legged dog.

  227. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:18 pm 227.Lou(DFW) said …

    223.Wrong As Usual said …

    “But you’re right, the Right man is sad Nanny……you pegged me Nanny………Pegged me good……….I know, my life is so sad……….you saw right through me…..….my life is WWGHA and I have nothing else……….it is a depressing existence……….”

    ASS, he didn’t write any of those things, but you did, and it’s very revealing.

  228. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:23 pm 228.Lou(DFW) said …

    213.Right On said …

    “Anony, shame on you.”

    “I am the former A? Gosh, you think!!”

    ASS, show us where he claimed that you were A.

  229. on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:47 pm 229.Lou(DFW) said …

    224.The messenger said …

    “221.Severin, Hell is far worse than that. The fact that thier [sic] are people who are trying to help those starving children is a sign that Jesus loves them.”

    No, it’s a sign that those people, NOT YOUR IMAGINARY JESUS, loves them.

    “If Jesus didn’t love them, he would take all of those kind people who are trying to help and he would send them away.”

    No, if your imaginary Jesus loved them, then he wouldn’t allow them to starve in the first place.

    “God has allowed people like us to help the less fortunate people of the world.”

    Yes, people like us who are not starving (because imaginary Jesus loves us, but not them?) and who have the means to help them because your imaginary god doesn’t help them. Why is it we have the kindness and the means to help them, but your imaginary god who has the power, but not the kindness, doesn’t help them?

  230. on 14 Dec 2012 at 4:44 pm 230.Lou said …

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    Except Prime never admitted it. He had to get busted first. It was in much of the same manner as TGHO who boasted of his status as a college Biology professor until it was disclosed that he was an IT help desk tech. You can never trust an atheist.

  231. on 14 Dec 2012 at 5:15 pm 231.Lou(DFW) said …

    230.Louser said …

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    No, he changed his “handle” from Prime to JALindsay. That is not sock-puppeting, moron. I chnaged my “handle” here, too. So what?

    “Except Prime never admitted it.”

    Except that he did. He also provided a link to his blog that includes his real name.

    “He had to get busted first.”

    Liar, show us where he was “busted first.”

    “You can never trust an atheist.”

    But we can trust in one thing – that theists lie in anyway they can in order to support their delusion.

  232. on 14 Dec 2012 at 10:18 pm 232.Anonymous said …

    Lou

    You can never trust an atheist.

    Unlike good xtians such as Hinn, Hitler, Koresh, Jim Jones. Now those are guys you can trust.
    Lou, you fail again. Isn’t it embarrassing?

  233. on 14 Dec 2012 at 11:52 pm 233.The messenger said …

    226.Lou(DFW), I already explained that to you in my past comments.

  234. on 15 Dec 2012 at 12:01 am 234.The messenger said …

    229.Lou(DFW), a lot of those people are no longer starving because they have been given supplies and food.

    God is not cruel, evil, angry, or jealous.

    Those people died as an example to others that we need to be kinder and help others bumpy giving them food and money so they may live.

    As a reward for helping others achieve kindness, love, and compassion, the people who died will be sent to heaven.

  235. on 15 Dec 2012 at 12:16 am 235.alex said …

    me thinks we’re all atheists.

    why would a theist grieve when a loved one dies? because deep down, they know god/heaven/hell is all bullshit. all that brainwashing is not truly 100%. that’s why, they’re in here, arguing and shit.

    that’s right morons. keep repeating that it’s all part of god’s plan while you weep with the realization that it’s all bullcrap.

  236. on 15 Dec 2012 at 1:51 am 236.JALindsay said …

    Cool! People are still talking about me here.

    Unfortunately, the rest is all still the same conversation. I wish the theists would up their game and talk about something new from time to time. I don’t know if they’re even really theists or not, though. This place smells really strongly of trolls.

  237. on 15 Dec 2012 at 2:06 am 237.The messenger said …

    235.alex, the reason that we feel sad when someone dies is because we will have to wait a while before we can see them again.

  238. on 15 Dec 2012 at 2:09 am 238.The messenger said …

    Lou(DPK), here is the proof of heaven.

    Eben Alexander (author)
    This article is about the neurosurgeon and author. For his great-grandfather, see Eben Alexander.
    Eben Alexander III
    Born December, 1953
    Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
    Nationality USA
    Occupation Writer, neurosurgeon
    Website
    http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/
    Eben Alexander III (born December, 1953 in Charlotte, North Carolina) is a neurosurgeon and the author of the best-selling Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife, in which he shares his thoughts on his near-death experience and whether science can explain that heaven really does exist.

    HideAuthorship

    Alexander is the author of the autobiographical book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife (2012) in which he asserts that his out of body and near death experience (NDE) while in a meningitis-induced coma in 2008 proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, that death is an illusion, and that an eternity of perfect splendor awaits in the afterlife. According to him, the current understanding of the mind “now lies broken at our feet ”— for “What happened to me destroyed it, and I intend to spend the rest of my life investigating the true nature of consciousness and making the fact that we are more, much more, than our physical brains as clear as I can, both to my fellow scientists and to people at large.” Alexander’s book was excerpted in a Newsweek magazine cover story in October 2012.[1] (In May 2012, Alexander had provided a slightly more technical account of the events described in his book in an article, “My Experience in Coma”, in AANS Neurosurgeon, the trade publication of the American Association of Neurological Surgeons.[2])

    Alexander’s book and publicity campaign have been criticized by scientists including neuroscientist Sam Harris who found his account “alarmingly unscientific” and who has written that “Everything — absolutely everything — in Alexander’s account rests on repeated assertions that his visions of heaven occurred while his cerebral cortex was “shut down,” “inactivated,” “completely shut down,” “totally offline,” and “stunned to complete inactivity.” The evidence he provides for this claim is not only inadequate — it suggests that he doesn’t know anything about the relevant brain science.”[3] “Even in cases where the brain is alleged to have shut down, its activity must return if the subject is to survive and describe the experience. In such cases, there is generally no way to establish that the NDE occurred while the brain was offline.”[4]

    In November 2012, Alexander responded to critics in a second Newsweek article: “My synapses—the spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call “consciousness.” The E. coli bacteria that flooded my brain during my illness made sure of that. My doctors have told me that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact.”[5] Alexander also responded, “I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory.”[6]

    As of December 2, 2012, Proof of Heaven has been on the The New York Times Best Seller list for four weeks.[7]

    Close this section
    HideBiography

    Education and training

    Alexander attended Phillips Exeter Academy (class of 1972), University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (A.B., 1975), and the Duke University School of Medicine (M.D., 1980).

    Alexander was an Intern in General Surgery at Duke University Medical Center, a resident at Duke, Newcastle (U.K.) General Hospital. He was a resident and research fellow at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and Massachusetts General Hospital and is certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and the American College of Surgeons (F.A.C.S.).

    Academic and clinical appointments

    Alexander has taught at Duke University Medical Center, Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School, University of Massachusetts Medical School, and the University of Virginia Medical School.

    He has had hospital appointments at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston Children’s Hospital, Dana–Farber Cancer Institute, Massachusetts General Hospital, University of Massachusetts Medical Center, and Lynchburg (Virginia) General Hospital-CentraHealth. He is currently an attending neurosurgeon.

    Professional activities

    Alexander is a member of the American Medical Association and various other professional societies. He has been on the editorial boards of various journals.

    Close this section
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  239. on 15 Dec 2012 at 1:39 pm 239.Anonymous said …

    This place smells really strongly of trolls” – yes it does; see comment #3 in this very post.

  240. on 15 Dec 2012 at 1:41 pm 240.alex said …

    let us pray, har! har!. i know i’ll see them again, sniff, sniff, (convince myself, convince myself, rinse repeat 50x, hail marys, bullshit, etc)

    real theists should walk around, head held high, confident, that they did everything in order to go to the promised land, but they don’t.

    consistently looking for affirmation, they come in here to antagonize. go home, motherfuckers and let me mourn in peace.

  241. on 15 Dec 2012 at 2:55 pm 241.Lou(DFW) said …

    234.The messenger said …

    “God is not cruel, evil, angry, or jealous.

    Those people died as an example to others that we need to be kinder and help others bumpy [?] giving them food and money so they may live.”

    Right, WE, not your imaginary god, need to be kinder!

  242. on 15 Dec 2012 at 2:58 pm 242.Lou(DFW) said …

    238.The messenger said …

    “Lou(DPK), here is the proof of heaven.”

    No, it isn’t. It’s only evidence of the author’s hallucination. It’s no different than a dream that people have every night when they sleep. A dream is not evidence of anything real. How many times are you going to C&P that fairy tale?

  243. on 15 Dec 2012 at 3:17 pm 243.Lou(DFW) said …

    234.The messenger said …

    “God is not cruel, evil, angry, or jealous.”

    Says you:

    Bryan Fischer: God Did Not Protect Connecticut Shooting Victims Because Prayer Banned In Schools

    http://tinyurl.com/cg7fxd4

  244. on 15 Dec 2012 at 3:23 pm 244.Lou(DFW) said …

    234.The messenger said …

    “God is not cruel, evil, angry, or jealous.”

    Huckabee To Fox: ‘Should We Be Surprised’ About School Carnage When We’ve ‘Removed God From Schools’?

    http://tinyurl.com/d893poh

  245. on 15 Dec 2012 at 3:48 pm 245.Suh said …

    This is why atheist become atheist and why they are despised often by their own. Check out the link to see how they treat women/girls.

    “Before I joined Reddit, I never thought of myself as a masochist. The great thing about Reddit is that you can subscribe to particular subreddits that represent your interests – in my case, that might be skepticism, atheism, feminism, science, and pictures of baby animals – and ignore the subreddits that make you angry, like Men’s Rights, Beating Women, Space Dicks, and [Choose Prefix] Jailbait. The problem is that Reddit is infested with shitty, racist, sexist, bigoted people, to the point where it’s nearly guaranteed that some of those people will post in your special interest subreddit. The larger the subreddit, the better the chance that this will happen.”

    And so it is with r/atheism. R/atheism is very large, and so it is jam packed with assholes. And yet! I continue to read it every day. I read it even though I usually learn nothing new from it and it only serves to create and foster inside me an intense hatred of my fellow atheists.

    Two days ago, 15-year old Redditor Lunam posted a thread called “What My Super Religious Mother Got Me For Christmas“, in which she linked to a photo of herself holding Carl Sagan’s Demon-haunted World:”

    http://skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-makes-me-hate-atheists/

  246. on 15 Dec 2012 at 4:15 pm 246.Anonymous said …

    Right, because in Suh’s world, and strangely like that of the other trolls, accusing people who have something in common (disbelief in imaginary friends), even though it’s not the cause of their actions, is preferable to explaining why Christians still burn people alive for believing in the wrong spirits.

    Yeah, Suh. You made as much sense as ever.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq1EEgXS6e4

  247. on 15 Dec 2012 at 5:09 pm 247.The messenger said …

    241.Lou(DFW), Jesus suffered and gave his life for us.

    You can’t get much kinder than that.

  248. on 15 Dec 2012 at 5:26 pm 248.The messenger said …

    244.Lou(DFW), that is not the reason that those kids died.

    Why are you so misinformed.

  249. on 15 Dec 2012 at 5:28 pm 249.The messenger said …

    243.Lou(DFW), those kids are now in heaven and eventually they will be with their families again.

    Prayer banning is not the reason that those kids died.

  250. on 15 Dec 2012 at 5:34 pm 250.The messenger said …

    242.Lou(DFW), Eben Alexander had many tests done to his brain and he concluded that his experience in the afterlife was not a dream or a hallucination.

    That fact is within comment 238.

    Why do you ignore this evidence?

    I pray for you.

  251. on 15 Dec 2012 at 5:51 pm 251.The messenger said …

    Those people died as an example to others that we need to be kinder and help others by giving them food and money so they may live.

  252. on 16 Dec 2012 at 5:50 am 252.Slapnuts McGee said …

    The title of this article post needs to be retitled as “Proof that messenger is an absolute toolshed.” Seriously messenger, GTFO.

  253. on 16 Dec 2012 at 1:32 pm 253.Lou(DFW) said …

    250.The messenger said …

    “242.Lou(DFW), Eben Alexander had many tests done to his brain and he concluded that his experience in the afterlife was not a dream or a hallucination.”

    There is no such test.

  254. on 16 Dec 2012 at 1:33 pm 254.Lou(DFW) said …

    248.The messenger said …

    “244.Lou(DFW), that is not the reason that those kids died.

    Why are you so misinformed.”

    Why are yo such a moron? I never claimed that was the reason they were murdered.

  255. on 16 Dec 2012 at 1:34 pm 255.Lou(DFW) said …

    247.The messenger said …

    “241.Lou(DFW), Jesus suffered and gave his life for us.”

    No, he didn’t.

    “You can’t get much kinder than that.”

    Yes, an all-knowing, all-powerful god could.

  256. on 16 Dec 2012 at 2:02 pm 256.Lou(DFW) said …

    249.The messenger said …

    “243.Lou(DFW), those kids are now in heaven and eventually they will be with their families again.”

    You have absolutely no evidence of that.

    Furthermore, an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god could have prevented such a tragedy. That he didn’t makes him a conspirator. By any definition in any language, that makes your imaginary god just has evil as the person who committed such an evil act. Or your imaginary god doesn’t exist.

  257. on 16 Dec 2012 at 2:04 pm 257.Lou(DFW) said …

    250.The messenger said …

    “242.Lou(DFW), Eben Alexander had many tests done to his brain and he concluded that his experience in the afterlife was not a dream or a hallucination.”

    Dreams and hallucination are, in fact, “real” to the brain. The only difference, as far as the brain is concerned, is that one reality is external and the other is internal.

  258. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:26 pm 258.The messenger said …

    253.Lou(DFW), how do you know?

  259. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:29 pm 259.The messenger said …

    257.Lou(DFW), in that article it clearly explains why that experience in the afterlife could not possible have been a hallucination or a dream.

    You are in denial.

  260. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:41 pm 260.The messenger said …

    254.Lou(DFW), if you didn’t make that claim, why did you include that statement in comment 244.

  261. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:43 pm 261.The messenger said …

    256.Lou(DFW), I already explained why those people died.

    If Jesus is so bad, why does he let them live in hean.

  262. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:46 pm 262.The messenger said …

    256.Lou(DFW), I have already presented proof of heaven.

    You are in denial.

  263. on 16 Dec 2012 at 3:57 pm 263.The messenger said …

    255.Lou(DFW), haven’t you ever read the bible?

    Jesus suffered and died for all of us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuc2aWJnmQ8

  264. on 17 Dec 2012 at 3:35 am 264.Lou(DFW) said …

    253.Lou(DFW) said …

    250.The messenger said …

    “242.Lou(DFW), had many tests done to his brain and he concluded that his experience in the afterlife was not a dream or a hallucination.”

    “There is no such test.”

    “257.Lou(DFW), in that article it clearly explains why that experience in the afterlife could not possible have been a hallucination or a dream.

    You are in denial.”

    OK, messenger, here’s your chance to prove once and for all that you are what you claim or that you are nothing but a lying fraud.

    1. You can retract your claim that there’s a test that can determine which memories are the result of reality or dreams/hallucinations.

    2.You can present proof that there is such a test, and you can provide the test results that prove that Eben Alexander memories of heaven are a result of reality, and not the result of an hallucination.

    3. Or you will do neither, and agree not to post anymore comments on this blog.

    What’s your choice?

  265. on 17 Dec 2012 at 2:39 pm 265.Lou(DFW) said …

    230.Louser said …

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    “Except Prime never admitted it. He had to get busted first.”

    Louser, we’re still waiting for you to substantiate your claim. Until you do, you remain as always, a lying fraud.

  266. on 17 Dec 2012 at 11:19 pm 266.JALindsay said …

    230.Louser said …

    “Sort of like Prime transforming into Lindsay?”

    And for my next trick, water into wine. You’ll love it….

  267. on 17 Dec 2012 at 11:31 pm 267.Lou(DFW) said …

    266.JALindsay said …

    “And for my next trick, water into wine. You’ll love it….”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkPgYbdQ1kQ

  268. on 17 Dec 2012 at 11:36 pm 268.Anonymous said …

    Water into wine? BFD, any kid with a chemistry set can do that trick.

    Got anything better? ;)

  269. on 18 Dec 2012 at 12:00 am 269.The messenger said …

    Lou(DPK), read this.

    The spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call “consciousness.” The E. coli bacteria that flooded his brain during his illness made sure of that. His doctor told him that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact.”[5]

    That was a quote from the website page that I got the information from.

    As you can see, the test that you keep asking about does exist and if you wish to learn more about the brain I suggest that you get a new one first because your current brain does not seem to work.

    Alexander also responded, “I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory.”[6]

  270. on 18 Dec 2012 at 2:07 am 270.Right Again said …

    4. Lou you can prove it is a hallucination. That is a positive claim and you have not proven it. Until you can, you are a liar and a fraud.

    Nah, you are regardless.

    Lindsay!, girl good to have you back. BTW, I was the one who busted Lindsay coming in with a new nick. Good to see you are remaining honest and retiring Primitive Neanderthal. lol!

  271. on 18 Dec 2012 at 2:12 am 271.Right Again said …

    #245 Suh

    What a bunch of filthy repulsive atheists. No wonder the female ranks in the atheist tent remain so low. I know Richard Dawkins has been criticized on his blog for his sexist attitude towards woman. I don’t know why these people must be such haters.

  272. on 18 Dec 2012 at 2:50 am 272.Lou(DFW) said …

    269.Right Again said …

    “[244.] Lou you can prove it is a hallucination. That is a positive claim and you have not proven it. Until you can, you are a liar and a fraud.”

    Actually, no I’m not. ASS, you are so desperate. A lie is a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive. You, better than anyone here, understand that. For example:

    “Lindsay!, girl good to have you back. BTW, I was the one who busted Lindsay coming in with a new nick.”

    Except that you didn’t. Show us where you did. You are again demonstrating that you are a pathological liar. But because we all know that you won’t show us, then I’ll expose you for the fraud that you are.

    You were not aware of JALindsay’s former name. You were even confused about it. It was DPK who first posted his former name:

    on 09 Oct 2012 at 12:15 am 35.DPK said …

    “Prime returns… Kickin’ ass and takin’ names.
    Welcome back.”

    And yes, ASS – DPK was referring to you as the object of “Kickin’ ass and takin’ names.”

    And by the way, changing from one’s name is not sock-puppeting, something which you, along with lying, are very familiar because they both have the same purpose – deceit and fraud.

  273. on 18 Dec 2012 at 2:54 am 273.Lou(DFW) said …

    271.Lou(DFW) said …

    269.Right Again said …
    “[244.]”

    Correction, I think ASS was referring to 242.

  274. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:15 am 274.Right Again said …

    HAHAHAHAHA, oh Thelma-Lou hate to do it to you but – check out #27 on that SAME thread. I already nailed the sock-puppet.

    Thelma-Lou you are great fun but I gotta run for now.

    Try to answer #4 while I am gone. It is a good exercise for you Thelma.

  275. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:17 am 275.Right Again said …

    Lou, before I go. Can you at least post on the correct thread. Wow! what a complete mess.

  276. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:42 am 276.Lou(DFW) said …

    27.ASS said …

    “Didn’t you just show up Lindsay? How would you know……unless……..you are a sock puppet?

    I thought so. Whats a girl to do?”

    ASS, first of all, he wasn’t a sock-puppet. You keep lying about that even though it’s been explained to you numerous times.

    Second, you didn’t even show that it was Prime who changed to JALindsay. As I correctly indicated, it was DPK.

  277. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:46 am 277.Lou(DFW) said …

    273.Wrong Again said …

    “Thelma-Lou you are great fun but I gotta run for now.”

    Translation – “I’ve yet again made a fool of myself, so I must run and hide.”

    “Try to answer #4 while I am gone. It is a good exercise for you Thelma.”

    “4.The messenger said …
    1.annoymous, God is real.”

    In which 4. did I refer to a hallucination?

  278. on 18 Dec 2012 at 5:54 pm 278.JALindsay said …

    ASS tries to use my name to call me a girl, attempting it as a pejorative, because he thinks there’s something wrong with being a girl. He’s a sexist too. Awesome!

  279. on 18 Dec 2012 at 6:25 pm 279.Lou(DFW) said …

    278.JALindsay said …

    “ASS tries to use my name to call me a girl, attempting it as a pejorative, because he thinks there’s something wrong with being a girl.”

    Yes, we all know that girls have cooties!

    Ignorant people like ASS are afraid of those things with which they are unfamiliar. For example, in this case, girls.

  280. on 18 Dec 2012 at 9:33 pm 280.The messenger said …

    on 18 Dec 2012 at 12:00 am 269.The messenger said …
    Lou(DPK), read this.
    The spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call “consciousness.” The E. coli bacteria that flooded his brain during his illness made sure of that. His doctor told him that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact.”[5]
    That was a quote from the website page that I got the information from.
    As you can see, the test that you keep asking about does exist and if you wish to learn more about the brain I suggest that you get a new one first because your current brain does not seem to work.
    Alexander also responded, “I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory.”[6]

  281. on 18 Dec 2012 at 11:55 pm 281.Lou(DFW) said …

    280.The messenger said …

    “As you can see, the test that you keep asking about does exist and if you wish to learn more about the brain I suggest that you get a new one first because your current brain does not seem to work.”

    As we all can see, you didn’t provide any information about nor the results of any such test that show whether or not memories are formed from internal or external stimuli.

    As we know, you are a deceiver, a fraud.

  282. on 19 Dec 2012 at 3:32 am 282.The messenger said …

    281.Lou(DFW), within that article that I posted, it clearly states that Mr. Eben’s doctor did tests on Mr. Eben’s brain in order to determine whether his brain was cap ible of any kind of consciousness durring his slumber.

    According to the tests that were done to him, he was incapable of such brain activity.

    So therefore the only logical conclusion to this medical mystery is an afterlife experience.

  283. on 19 Dec 2012 at 4:40 am 283.Anonymous said …

    Messenger, I have a question for you.

    When do you decide if you are going to make your trolling posts in the style of someone who cannot write nor spell, and when do you decide if you are going to write semi-coherently?

    It really is interesting to see how inconsistent you can be. Oh wait, this reminds me of this other sock-puppet trolling persona we know…

  284. on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:38 am 284.Lou(DFW) said …

    282.The messenger said …
    “281.Lou(DFW), within that article that I posted, it clearly states that Mr. Eben’s doctor did tests on Mr. Eben’s brain in order to determine whether his brain was cap ible of any kind of consciousness durring his slumber.”

    You keep posting the same non-answer. What is the test that determines whether or not a person’s memories are the result of external or internal stimuli?

    And I can C&P as well as you:

    “[Eben’s] entire account hinged on the assertion that his cortex was “completely shut down” while he was seeing angels in heaven. Unfortunately, the evidence he has offered in support of this claim—in the article, in a subsequent response to my criticism of it, in his book, and in multiple interviews—suggests that he doesn’t understand what would constitute compelling evidence of cortical inactivity. The proof he offers is either fallacious (CT scans do not detect brain activity) or irrelevant (it does not matter, even slightly, that his form of meningitis was “astronomically rare”)—and no combination of fallacy and irrelevancy adds up to sound science. The impediment to taking Alexander’s claims seriously can be simply stated: There is absolutely no reason to believe that his cerebral cortex was inactive at the time he had his experience of the afterlife. The fact that Alexander thinks he has demonstrated otherwise—by continually emphasizing how sick he was, the infrequency of E. coli meningitis, and the ugliness of his initial CT scan—suggests a deliberate disregard of the most plausible interpretation of his experience. It is far more likely that some of his cortex was functioning, despite the profundity of his illness, than that he is justified in making [his claim]. – Sam Harris

  285. on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:45 am 285.Lou(DFW) said …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwLgxniI7KM

    “Watch the video to the end. True, it will bring you six minutes closer to meeting your maker, but it will also teach you something about the limits of intellectual honesty. The footage shows Alexander responding to a question from Raymond Moody (the man who coined the term “near-death experience”). I am quite sure that I’ve never seen a scientist speak in a manner more suggestive of wishful thinking. If self-deception were an Olympic sport, this is how our most gifted athletes would appear when they were in peak condition.

    It should also be clear that the knowledge of the afterlife that Alexander claims to possess depends upon some extraordinarily dubious methods of verification. While in his coma, he saw a beautiful girl riding beside him on the wing of a butterfly. We learn in his book that he developed his recollection of this experience over a period of months—writing, thinking about it, and mining it for new details. It would be hard to think of a better way to engineer a distortion of memory.” – Sam Harris

    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/science-on-the-brink-of-death

  286. on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:52 am 286.Lou(DFW) said …

    282.The messenger said …

    “So therefore the only logical conclusion to this medical mystery is an afterlife experience.”

    Ignoring that your logic is flawed, there was no “medical mystery.” Dreams and hallucinations aren’t medical mysterious. A medical degree isn’t required to understand that dreams and hallucinations aren’t reality. Nor is one required to recognize that Alexander is a huckster making money off of tools such as yourself.

  287. on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:55 am 287.Lou(DFW) said …

    286.Lou(DFW) said …

    Correction: “Dreams and hallucinations aren’t medical mysteries.”

  288. on 20 Dec 2012 at 2:50 am 288.The messenger said …

    I do not think that there is a specific name for the test that was done to Mr. Eben’s brain durring his coma, but based on the information that I have gatherd on the subject I do believe that there was a test done on his brain.

    I believe this to be true because of the amount of sources that I have found that all mention a test.

  289. on 27 Dec 2012 at 10:45 am 289.Me said …

    As, you stated yourself, it was Satan once Gods favorite, who was allowed to tempt adam and eve! Therefore, its was by gods own fault this occured! Because god allowed a cast out to temp them!

  290. on 27 Dec 2012 at 11:24 am 290.Lou(DFW) said …

    288.The messenger said …

    “I do not think that there is a specific name for the test that was done to Mr. Eben’s brain durring his coma…”

    Correct, because there isn’t any such test. You lied.

    “[B]ut based on the information that I have gatherd on the subject I do believe that there was a test done on his brain.

    I believe this to be true…”

    What you “believe is irrelevant.

    “[T]he amount of sources that I have found that all mention a test.”

    No, they don’t mention any test that can determine which memories are real and which are false.

    You are a liar.

  291. on 16 Feb 2013 at 4:25 pm 291.Billy Butcher said …

    The old argument, born from a baseless assumption, is more laughable and insulting to human intelligence than Dinesh D’sousa’s essay claiming atheism caused the Holocaust. Dr. Avalos, whom I now have no doubt is the most knoweledgeable and top debater on religion than anyone living or deceased ripped D’sousa into shreds so badly that I thought at one point I saw blood seeping from my PC. Apparently D.D. failed to do any research, which tells me he’s either psychotically arrogant or just a a simpleton. For instance he never mentions that the Vatican, Pope Pious XII, and the Catholic Church in general had been in an ongoing six century well concieved campaign of extreme anti-semitism. Or that Martin Luther, the father of protastantism, had made a 7 point pogrom on how to eliminate all Jews in 1384. No mention that Hitler was a devoted Roman Catholic, and never once mentioned Darwin or eugenics, which is to his credit for eugenics had been around for over a 1,000 years. In Hitlers Mein Kampf he never mentions atheism, but rather pepers his writings with doing the work of God by killing the Jews.
    Now, we have an even more insulting presumptuous hypothosis that the Bible is the creator of moral behavior. LOL!!!! Firstly, what an insult to all who lived before. They I suppose had no idea that murder and theft (well, those are the two laws we have today) were perfectly accepted prior to that ludicrous novel being distributed. I suppose we can thank the minions who ignore Edmund O. Wilson and the likes that as man populated and formed larger communities but survived quite well in an organized manor with a strict set of communal rules just as most higher mamals live by. Did they get their rules from reading the Bible? I only can tolerate imbecility to a point, but arrogant inanity is draing on a properly working brain. Now, we have to remain vigilant as more and more horses buts push creationism into public schools even though it’s been determined to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and many other judges presiding over what conservative Christian Judge John E. Jones III called unbelievably inanity. But once they violate the 1st Amendmant, and violate the establishment clause, we are in a war. I’ve been in touch with my local ACLU branch and the federal, and they are prepared and waiting for the kill. I’ll kill as many as necessary to maintain my constitutional rights over the spiritual delusions of the arrogant buffoons. Bang…Bang….you’re dead. Sounds fun and necessary.

  292. on 17 Mar 2013 at 9:27 pm 292.showme2 said …

    problem is, you people are trying to define GOD. nuff said , but continue with your frustration if you must. you’re going to experience this mortal existence then you’re going to die. you’re going to experience more than discomfort than you’d like. sorry if someone told you something else. after this we’ll experience something else. look up in the sky tonight. do some real scientific thinking for a change don’t just spout the words. you can’t seperate science from GOD. science is a product of GOD.

  293. on 25 Mar 2013 at 5:25 am 293.Adam said …

    proof:

    In 1890 Charles Wilbour discovered this boulder
    on the island of Sahal at the Nile, telling a story of Imhotep

    The annual Nile flood, which inundated surrounding fields every autumn before farmers sowed their seed, failed seven years in a row. Djoser asked Imhotep where the source of the river lay. The pharaoh intended to travel there to interrogate the river gods and beg them to show mercy on his people.

    “But Imhotep replied that sacred [God] books had given him the answer…. The floods returned, and the famine was over….

    “In about 1200 B.C., fully 1400 years after his death, Imhotep, the genius architect of Djoser’s reign, was deified by the Egyptians, who built cult temples to honor him.”

    For many years, Egyptologists had doubted that Imhotep had been a real person — they found it rather difficult to believe the various accomplishments credited to him in the accounts written over a thousand years after he was supposed to have lived. At times Imhotep has been termed the Leonardo da Vinci of ancient Egypt, but in fact he was more than that. Da Vinci gained the reputation of a genius — Imhotep was eventually elevated to the status of a god.
    In Egypt’s long list of gods, very few were ever actually living among them, but Imhotep did. Manetho wrote that “during his [Djoser of the 3rd Dynasty] reign lived Imouthes [i.e., Imhotep], who, because of his medical skill has the reputation of Asclepius [the Greek god of medicine] among the Egyptians and who was the inventor of the art of building with hewn stone.” It was this statement that caused the specialists to doubt the existence of a real man named Imhotep. But in 1926, the question was settled once and for all — Imhotep was a real man.
    When excavations were carried out at the Step Pyramid at Sakkara, fragments of a statue of

    pharaoh Djoser were found. The base was inscribed with the names of Djoser and of …
    • “Imhotep, Chancellor of the King of Lower Egypt, Chief under the King, Administrator of the Great Palace, Hereditary Lord, High Priest of Heliopolis, Imhotep the Builder, the Sculptor, the Maker of Stone Vases…”

    Inscription showing the name and titulary of Imhotep in the 3rd row to the left, and the Horus-name of Djoser. This inscription was found on the base of a sculpture of Djoser, thus indicating Imhotep was a real man, as opposed to a god.

    Inscription of the 7 Year Famine
    Joseph’s main position was that of a prime minister and Imhotep appears to be the first who could boast of such a broad range of authority in ancient Egypt. There are records of many, many viziers throughout Egyptian history- but the first evidence which connects Imhotep with Joseph is an amazing inscription found carved on a large rock on the island of Sihiel just below the First Cataract of the Nile. (photo at top of page)
    This inscription claims to be a copy of a document written by Djoser in the 18th year of his reign,- this copy being written over 1,000 years after the events it claims to be relating.
    It goes on to tell of a seven year famine and seven years of plenty. Let’s look at a few passages from this inscription and compare them with the biblical account, keeping in mind that this was written a millennium after the events it claims to be describing:
    • 1. The inscription begins with the great distress of the pharaoh: “I was in distress on the Great Throne…” The Bible: “And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled” GEN 41:8
    • 2. In the inscription, the pharaoh is troubled about a famine and asks Imhotep who the god of the Nile is, so he can approach him about the drought: “… I asked him who was the Chamberlain,…Imhotep, the son of Ptah… `What is the birthplace of the Nile? Who is the god there? Who is the god?’” Imhotep answers: “I need the guidance of Him who presides over the fowling net,…” The Bible: “And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.” Genesis 41:16
    In the Egyptian text above, Imhotep is termed “the son of Ptah”, who was the Egyptian god known as the “creator” of everything else, including the other gods.
    • 3. In the inscription, Imhotep answers the pharaoh about the god of the Nile and tells him where he lives. In the Bible, Joseph interprets the pharaohs dream. But, the next part of the inscription tells that when the king slept, the Nile god Khnum, revealed himself to him in a dream and promised the Nile would pour forth her waters and the land would yield abundantly for seven years, after a seven year drought. This passage reflects the fact of a dream by the pharaoh of seven years of plenty and seven years of famine, although reversed.
    • 4. The inscription then goes on to record Djoser’s promise to the Nile god, Khnum, in which the people were to be taxed 1/10 of everything, except for the priests of the “house of the god,” who would be exempted. The Bible: “And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh should have the fifth part, except the land of the priests only, which became not Pharaoh’s.” Genesis 47:26
    So here we have an inscription which tells a story of pharaoh Djoser asking his vizier, Imhotep, to help him with the problem of a great seven year famine. Imhotep tells him he must consult the god because the answer is not in him. Then, the pharaoh dreams a dream which foretells the event. Next follow seven years of plenty, which is reverse from the Biblical account. The pharaoh levies a tax of 10% on all of the population except for the priesthood. The Biblical account tells of a 1/5, or 20% tax, with the priesthood exempt.

    “Imhotep, the Voice of the God, Im (I AM)”
    The name, Imhotep, in ancient Egyptian is translated to mean “the voice (or mouth) of Im”; however, there is no record of a god in Egypt called “Im”. But, we all know the God, “I AM”:
    • “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus3:14
    • “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
    God told Moses to tell the pharaoh that “I AM” had sent him because “I AM” was the name by which the Egyptians had known Joseph’s God. Could “Im” have been “I AM”?
    The Bible states the name that was given to Joseph by the pharaoh, Zaphenath-paneah. It has been translated by some to mean, “the God lives; the God speaks”. Since we do not fully understand the meaning of the Egyptian word “hotep,” it is quite possible that the translation of Imhotep (“The voice of I AM) is identical to the Biblical name of Joseph (“the God lives; the God speaks).

  294. on 25 Mar 2013 at 5:26 am 294.Adam said …

    proof 2:
    Anthropologists who study legends and folktales from different geographical locations and cultures consistently have reported one particular group of legends that is common to practically every civilization. Legends have surfaced in hundreds of cultures throughout the world that tell of a huge, catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind, and that was survived by only a few individuals and animals. Although most historians who have studied this matter estimate that these legends number into the 200s, according to evolutionary geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood myths, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” (2003, p. 249, emp. added). Schoch went on to observe:
    Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world…. Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups (pp. 103,249).
    Over a century ago, the famous Canadian geologist, Sir William Dawson, wrote about how the record of the Flood
    is preserved in some of the oldest historical documents of several distinct races of men, and is indirectly corroborated by the whole tenor of the early history of most of the civilized races (1895, pp. 4ff.).
    Legends have been reported from nations such as China, Babylon, Mexico, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Persia, India, Norway, Wales, Ireland, Indonesia, Romania, etc.—composing a list that could go on for many pages (see Perloff, 1999, p. 167). Although the vast number of such legends is surprising, the similarity between much of their content is equally amazing. James Perloff noted:
    In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).

    AMERICAN INDIAN LEGENDS
    The Aztecs tell of a worldwide global flood in a story with striking parallels to the biblical deluge. “Only two people, the hero Coxcox and his wife, survived the flood by floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain” (Schoch, p. 103). Then, soon after the flood, giants constructed a great pyramid in an endeavor to reach the clouds. Such ambition is said to have angered the gods, who scattered the giants with fire sent from the heavens (cf. Genesis 11:1-9).
    In the ancient land we now refer to as Mexico, one tribe of Indians, known as the Toltecs, told of a great flood. In their legend, a deluge destroyed the “first world” 1,716 years after it was created. Only a few people escaped this worldwide flood, and did so in a “toptlipetlocali” (a word that means “closed chest”). After these few people exited the closed chest, they wandered about the Earth, and found a place where they built a “zacuali” (a high tower) in case another flood came upon the Earth. At the time of the “zacuali,” the Toltecs’ languages were confused and they separated to different parts of the Earth.
    Another ancient tribe of Mexico told the story of a man named Tezpi who escaped the deluge in a boat that was filled with animals. Similar to Noah, who sent out a raven (a scavenger bird) that never returned, and a dove that came back with an olive leaf, “Tezpi released a vulture, which stayed away, gorging on cadavers. Then he let a hummingbird go, and it returned to him bearing a twig” (Schoch, p. 104).

    ANCIENT GREEK MYTHOLOGY
    According to the Greek legend of the deluge, humans became very wicked. Zeus, the leader of the many gods in Greek mythology, wanted to destroy humans by a flood, and then raise up another group. However, before he could do this, a man by the name of Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, were warned of the impending disaster. This fortunate couple was placed in a large wooden chest by one of the immortals named Prometheus. For nine days and nights, the floodwaters covered almost all of the Earth. Only a few mountain peaks remained. The wooden chest came to rest on the peak of Mount Parnassus. Later, after leaving the wooden chest, Deucalion sacrificed to Zeus.

    ANCIENT BABYLONIAN MYTHOLOGY
    Possibly the most famous flood account (aside from the biblical record of Noah and the Flood) comes from the ancient Babylonian empire. The Gilgamesh Epic, written on twelve clay tablets that date back to the seventh century B.C., tells of a hero named Gilgamesh. In his search for eternal life, Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim, a person who was granted eternal life because he saved a boatload of animals and humans during a great flood. On the eleventh tablet of this epic, a flood account is recorded that parallels the Genesis account in many areas. According to the story, the gods instructed Utnapishtim to build a boat because a terrible flood was coming. Utnapishtim built the boat, covered it with pitch, and put animals of all kinds on it, as well as certain provisions. After Utnapishtim entered the boat with his family, it rained for six days and nights. When the flood ended, the boat rested on Mount Niser. After seven days, Utnapishtim sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded. The dove came back, so he sent a swallow, which also returned. Finally, he sent out a raven—which never returned. Utnapishtim and his family finally exited the boat and sacrificed to their gods (see Roth, 1988, pp. 303-304).
    What is the significance of the various flood legends? The answer seems obvious: (a) we have well over 200 flood legends that tell of a great flood (and possibly more than 500—Schoch, p. 249); (b) many of the legends come from different ages and civilizations that could not possibly have copied any of the similar legends; (c) the legends were recorded long before any missionaries arrived to relate to them the Genesis account of Noah; and (d) almost all civilizations have some sort of flood legend. The conclusion to be drawn from such facts is that in the distant past, there was a colossal flood that forever affected the history of all civilizations.

    Harold W. Clark, in his volume, Fossils, Flood and Fire, commented:
    Preserved in the myths and legends of almost every people on the face of the globe is the memory of the great catastrophe. While myths may not have any scientific value, yet they are significant in indicating the fact that an impression was left in the minds of the races of mankind that could not be erased (1968, p. 45).

    In volume three of his multi-volume set, The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology, H.H. Bancroft wrote: “There never was a myth without a meaning; …there is not one of these stories, no matter how silly or absurd, which was not founded on fact” (1883).

    REFERENCES
    Bancroft, H.H. (1883), Works: The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology (San Francisco, CA: A.L. Bancroft).
    Clark, Harold W. (1968), Fossils, Flood and Fire (Escondido, CA: Outdoor Pictures).
    Dawson, John William (1895), The Historical Deluge in Relation to Scientific Discovery (Chicago, IL: Revell).
    Kearley, F. Furman (1979), “The Significance of the Genesis Flood,” Sound Doctrine, March/April.
    Perloff, James (1999), Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism (Arlington, MA: Refuge Books).
    Rehwinkel, Alfred M. (1951), The Flood (St. Louis, MO: Concordia).
    Roth, Ariel (1988), Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing).
    Schoch, Robert M. (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders (New York: Jeremy P. Parcher/Putnam).
    Wundt, William (1916), Elements of Folk Psychology, trans. Edward L. Schaub (New York: Macmillan).

  295. on 25 Mar 2013 at 5:27 am 295.Adam said …

    Proof 3:

    If the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God, as it claims (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), we would expect there to be some evidence supporting these claims. After all, just because something claims to be the word of God does not make it true. We will examine the testimony of historical evidence to ask, Does the evidence support or deny the internal claims of the Bible?
    Three tests can be applied to the Bible to see if it exhibits characteristics of a divine book that is without error. First, external evidence should confirm the truthfulness of the Bible in areas we can investigate. Second, internal evidence should show that, in one way or another, the Bible is unique. While these tests can establish the reliability of the Bible and lend support to the Bible’s claims, they cannot prove its inspiration. However, the third test, a brief overview of Bible prophecy, will actually serve to verify the claim of divine inspiration.
    The Testimony of History
    External evidence from both archaeology and non-Christian writers confirms that the Bible–both Old and New Testaments–is a trustworthy historical document. Archaeologist Joseph Free has said that “Archaeology has confirmed countless passages which had been rejected by critics as unhistorical or contrary to known facts.” [1] Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Gluek confidently said that “It…may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible.” [2] Christian apologist Josh McDowell tells us that “After personally trying to shatter the historicity and validity of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that they are historically trustworthy.” [3]
    Some scholars once said that Moses couldn’t have written the first five books of the Bible (as the Bible says) because writing was largely unknown in his day. Then, archaeology proved otherwise by the discovery of many other written codes of the period: the code of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860), and the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.).
    Critics used to say that the biblical description of the Hittite Empire was wrong because the Hittite Empire (they thought) didn’t even exist! Then archaeologists discovered the Hittite capital in 1906 and discovered that the Hittite’s were actually a very vast and prominent civilization. Archaeological and linguistic evidence is increasingly pointing to a sixth-century B.C. date for the book of Daniel, in spite of the many critics who attempt to late-date Daniel and make it a prophecy after the detailed events it predicts.
    For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points out that within 110 years of Christ’s crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than “one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus’ life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity.” [4] Sir William Ramsey, one of the greatest archeologists to ever live, demonstrated that Luke made no mistakes in references to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands.
    Liberal scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn’t exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence. The Gospel’s portrayals of the temple, Pilate’s court, Jesus’ crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed. The list could go on and on. [See Section Archaeology and The Bible]
    The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document. Since the Bible can be trusted in areas that we can check (its history), then this gives us a reason to trust it in areas that we cannot check (its claims for inspiration).

    The Uniqueness of the Bible
    The internal evidence test reveals the Bible’s amazing consistency. The Bible was written by over 40 authors, in 3 languages, on 3 continents, over a span of 1,500 years, and covers hundreds of controversial subjects. Yet, the authors all spoke with agreement; there are no contradictions. [5] From Genesis to Revelation, there is one unfolding story–God’s redemption of mankind.
    Bible Prophecy
    The external and internal evidence tests do not prove the Bible’s inspiration, but do reveal that the objective evidence is consistent with and supports the Bible’s claims to be a divine book (because any book from God that claims to be inerrant should be reliable and consistent with itself). Bible prophecy, however, can only be explained by divine revelation and inspiration.
    There are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Bible which have been literally fulfilled, in many cases centuries after the completion of the Bible. Any attempt to late-date these prophecies is impossible–there is a copy of every Old Testament book but one from before 150 BC, and hundreds of these prophecies were not fulfilled until centuries later. For a detailed discussion of this area, seeEvidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
    Some prophecies fulfilled by Jesus are Micah 5:2, which revealed where He would be born; Isaiah 53 detailed His suffering, work at the cross, and resurrection; Psalm 22 is striking prophecy of the crucifixion. [See Messianic Prophecy On THIS Page]
    Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel’s prediction that the city of Tyre “would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell–on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island.” [6] If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded! [See Other Prophecies in The Bible]

    as the text of the Bible Been Altered Over the Centuries?
    One last test investigates whether or not the Bible has been corrupted down through the ages in its transmission. If it has been significantly changed, then it would not be relevant to us since inspiration does not extend to any manuscript copy. How can we know whether or not the Bible we have today is the same as what was written?
    This question is answered by the bibliographical test. This test looks at the number of existing manuscript copies there are, their agreement with each other concerning the text that they are copies of, and the time interval between these copies and the date of the original writing. All scholars agree that this test has conclusively established that the biblical text which we have now is nearly identical to what was originally recorded (for both Old and New Testaments). [See Reliability of Biblical Documents]
    The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from 200 B.C. to A.D. 68, included a copy of every Old Testament book except for one. Comparison with the texts of a thousand years later shows little or no variation and change between them.
    Conclusion
    The historical evidence shows that the Bible can be trusted. The commonly held idea that the Bible is unreliable or “just a myth” is unfounded. The internal evidence reveals the uniqueness of the Bible, a uniqueness which would be difficult to explain if it was just a human book. These two tests give credibility to the Bible’s internal claims to be the word of God. The testimony of predictive prophecy, however, takes us a step further and confirms the Bible’s claims to be inspired by God. Finally, the Bible has not been changed through the ages. The evidence shows that there is good reason to believe in the Bible.
    Notes
    1. Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History (Wheaton, Illionis: Scripture Press, 1969), p. 1.
    2. Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York: Farar, Straus and Cudahy, 1959), p. 136.
    3. Josh McDowell, More Than a Carpenter (Wheaton, Illionois: Tyndale House Publishers, 1977), p. 57.
    4. Gary Habermas and Antony Flew, Did Jesus Rise From the Dead? (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1987), p. 43.
    5. I have personally looked into the issue of alleged contradictions, and after thorough investigation, have never found one to hold. Norman Geisler, who has studied the Bible exhaustively for over forty years and been confronted with numerous dificulties, is of the same conclusion. A valuable resource for further investigation on this mater is Geisler’s When Critics Ask.
    6. Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks, When Skeptics Ask (Wheaton, Illinois: Victor Books, 1990), p. 198.
    7. Sir Frederic Kenyon, The Bible and Archaeology (New York: Harper and Row, 1940), pp. 288, 289.

  296. on 21 Apr 2013 at 6:14 am 296.Marlon said …

    To the website maker

    If you consider there is no God then I shouldn’t give a crap about you or other people then.

    It wouldn’t make sense considering laws were mostly originated from the Judaism culture, hence it is all irrelevant. Judaism culture started from God when out of all odds evacuated Egypt. Why would Egypt let their production economy leave their country in disarray? Not even a civil war? Interesting.

    Heaven on Earth is a delusion. If there is no God then its every man for himself.

    If we are evolutionary creatures from apes who are creatures like any animal then its battle for survival.

    If I see you dying on the street but it would risk my own life to save yours, then I’ll opt to leave your sorry ass in the gutter as there is no God, there is nobody to judge me or send me to hell.

    It would make sense leaving your sorry ass from a morale point of view especially when we so happen to scientifically have our species extinct, I don’t think you would be useful as you would only diminish whatever hope most people might have. Logically in a group of people you would only diminish any sense of hope, hence logically you should be left behind or even killed off in a worse case scenario. I’m being objective here. A real utilitarian common sense. One death (assuming it is yours) to save a thousand is utilitarian point of view.

    If spirituality was dead, I don’t think there is any need of a moral compass. One man should just takeover the world with military might to prevent people from thinking anything otherwise to destroy the world out of their own greed or ambition. Democracy only breeds corruption technically as people are given the freedom to do whatever they want legally even though it might be bad or good.

    For there is no God that dictator won’t go to hell. In fact it is for the greater good that this would happen to assure our own survival. An iron fist will snuff corruption. You believe there is no God, then the survival of human kind is to have universal action to take care of the world, with an iron fist. Its for our own good don’t you think?

    You should stand up to your convictions anyway, possibly. Ironically if you were right and caused dissent with people who have a spiritual faith (which is quite a good number) you would be the cause of a low morale to the masses and I don’t know how you would bring people hope if we were faced something of an apocalyptic proportion. Logically speaking to rescue the thousands one must die (most likely someone that would cause more harm than good in terms of morale)

    Let’s hope Mother Nature doesn’t give up too soon that we are faced with annihilation. Coz you’d be the first person to be left in your own demise.

    From a evolutionary point of view have a nice death, coz that’ll be all you look forward to, no heaven or no hell. In your perception, that pretty much is all.

    I would like to hear what you think, I am only agreeing with you for the sake of arguments am trying to agree with you even though you would attempt to dismay people who have their lives saved by churches from suicide or depression, or drugs or whatever the Red Cross or community christian groups try to do to make an positive impact to the community rather than just rationalising their faith, they show through action & kindness. You undoing that would really benefit humanity am I right? It’s all about action, philosophy just shows what an egg head you are, and you have nothing left to offer than your tripe point of view.

    I am a scientist, my logical point of view is that you might be the cause of the bad thing that comes out of humanity. You being the destroyer of believing life, of hope, of beyond all odds that another person can get over your addiction or suicidal tendencies because of a Christian support group. If there is no God, your worth nothing, a wasted breath of air that other more worthy people should be breathing.

    Have a nice life mate, hope you live long enough to make a difference in the marginalised in society and humanity that you think you are saving (not).

  297. on 21 Apr 2013 at 6:15 am 297.Marlon said …

    To the website maker

    If you consider there is no God then I shouldn’t give a crap about you or other people then.

    It wouldn’t make sense considering laws were mostly originated from the Judaism culture, hence it is all irrelevant. Judaism culture started from God when out of all odds evacuated Egypt. Why would Egypt let their production economy leave their country in disarray? Not even a civil war? Interesting.

    Heaven on Earth is a delusion. If there is no God then its every man for himself.

    If we are evolutionary creatures from apes who are creatures like any animal then its battle for survival.

    If I see you dying on the street but it would risk my own life to save yours, then I’ll opt to leave your sorry ass in the gutter as there is no God, there is nobody to judge me or send me to hell.

    It would make sense leaving your sorry ass from a morale point of view especially when we so happen to scientifically have our species extinct, I don’t think you would be useful as you would only diminish whatever hope most people might have. Logically in a group of people you would only diminish any sense of hope, hence logically you should be left behind or even killed off in a worse case scenario. I’m being objective here. A real utilitarian common sense. One death (assuming it is yours) to save a thousand is utilitarian point of view.

    If spirituality was dead, I don’t think there is any need of a moral compass. One man should just takeover the world with military might to prevent people from thinking anything otherwise to destroy the world out of their own greed or ambition. Democracy only breeds corruption technically as people are given the freedom to do whatever they want legally even though it might be bad or good.

    For there is no God that dictator won’t go to hell. In fact it is for the greater good that this would happen to assure our own survival. An iron fist will snuff corruption. You believe there is no God, then the survival of human kind is to have universal action to take care of the world, with an iron fist. Its for our own good don’t you think?

    You should stand up to your convictions anyway, possibly. Ironically if you were right and caused dissent with people who have a spiritual faith (which is quite a good number) you would be the cause of a low morale to the masses and I don’t know how you would bring people hope if we were faced something of an apocalyptic proportion. Logically speaking to rescue the thousands one must die (most likely someone that would cause more harm than good in terms of morale)

    Let’s hope Mother Nature doesn’t give up too soon that we are faced with annihilation. Coz you’d be the first person to be left in your own demise.

    From a evolutionary point of view have a nice death, coz that’ll be all you look forward to, no heaven or no hell. In your perception, that pretty much is all.

    I would like to hear what you think, I am only agreeing with you for the sake of arguments am trying to agree with you even though you would attempt to dismay people who have their lives saved by churches from suicide or depression, or drugs or whatever the Red Cross or community christian groups try to do to make an positive impact to the community rather than just rationalising their faith, they show through action & kindness. You undoing that would really benefit humanity am I right? It’s all about action, philosophy just shows what an egg head you are, and you have nothing left to offer than your tripe point of view.

    I am a scientist, in my logical point of view you could be the cause of the bad thing that comes out of humanity, the destroyer of believing life, of hope, of beyond all odds a person can get over your addiction or suicidal tendencies. If there is no God, your worth nothing, a wasted breath of air that other more worthy people should be breathing.

    Have a nice life mate, hope you live long enough to make a difference in the marginalised in society and humanity that you think you are saving (not).

  298. on 21 Apr 2013 at 6:15 am 298.Marlon said …

    To the website maker

    If you consider there is no God then I shouldn’t give a crap about you or other people then.

    It wouldn’t make sense considering laws were mostly originated from the Judaism culture, hence it is all irrelevant. Judaism culture started from God when out of all odds evacuated Egypt. Why would Egypt let their production economy leave their country in disarray? Not even a civil war? Interesting.

    Heaven on Earth is a delusion. If there is no God then its every man for himself.

    If we are evolutionary creatures from apes who are creatures like any animal then its battle for survival.

    If I see you dying on the street but it would risk my own life to save yours, then I’ll opt to leave your sorry ass in the gutter as there is no God, there is nobody to judge me or send me to hell.

    It would make sense leaving your sorry ass from a morale point of view especially when we so happen to scientifically have our species extinct, I don’t think you would be useful as you would only diminish whatever hope most people might have. Logically in a group of people you would only diminish any sense of hope, hence logically you should be left behind or even killed off in a worse case scenario. I’m being objective here. A real utilitarian common sense. One death (assuming it is yours) to save a thousand is utilitarian point of view.

    If spirituality was dead, I don’t think there is any need of a moral compass. One man should just takeover the world with military might to prevent people from thinking anything otherwise to destroy the world out of their own greed or ambition. Democracy only breeds corruption technically as people are given the freedom to do whatever they want legally even though it might be bad or good.

    For there is no God that dictator won’t go to hell. In fact it is for the greater good that this would happen to assure our own survival. An iron fist will snuff corruption. You believe there is no God, then the survival of human kind is to have universal action to take care of the world, with an iron fist. Its for our own good don’t you think?

    You should stand up to your convictions anyway, possibly. Ironically if you were right and caused dissent with people who have a spiritual faith (which is quite a good number) you would be the cause of a low morale to the masses and I don’t know how you would bring people hope if we were faced something of an apocalyptic proportion. Logically speaking to rescue the thousands one must die (most likely someone that would cause more harm than good in terms of morale)

    Let’s hope Mother Nature doesn’t give up too soon that we are faced with annihilation. Coz you’d be the first person to be left in your own demise.

    From a evolutionary point of view have a nice death, coz that’ll be all you look forward to, no heaven or no hell. In your perception, that pretty much is all.

    I would like to hear what you think, I am only agreeing with you for the sake of arguments am trying to agree with you even though you would attempt to dismay people who have their lives saved by churches from suicide or depression, or drugs or whatever the Red Cross or community christian groups try to do to make an positive impact to the community rather than just rationalising their faith, they show through action & kindness. You undoing that would really benefit humanity am I right? It’s all about action, philosophy just shows what an egg head you are, and you have nothing left to offer than your tripe point of view.

    I am a scientist, my logical point of view technically your potentially the cause of the bad thing that comes out of humanity, the destroyer of believing life, of hope, of beyond all odds you can get over your addiction or suicidal tendencies. If there is no God, your worth nothing, a wasted breath of air that other more worthy people should be breathing.

    Have a nice life mate, hope you live long enough to make a difference in the marginalised in society and humanity that you think you are saving (not).

  299. on 21 Apr 2013 at 8:16 am 299.Fluttershy said …

    Ok…
    Now i am actually scared…
    You are saying that if the big G was proven to be false…you would act like animals and go on a senseless spree of criminal behaviour…
    Please visit a sink or have a prefrontal lobotomy…

  300. on 21 Apr 2013 at 12:16 pm 300.alex said …

    “If you consider there is no God then I shouldn’t give a crap about you or other people then.”

    go fuck yourself and quit fucking with atheists?

    “If there is no God then its every man for himself.”

    no shit, asshole. if there is no thor, then there are no lightning bols. you fucken moron.

    “If we are evolutionary creatures from apes..”

    says who? see the shit you’re bring here? i’ll stop because everyone can see what a dumbass you are.

  301. on 21 Apr 2013 at 2:57 pm 301.Fluttershy said …

    Alex, arent you scared that that christian will become a savage if he realises that god isnt real…?

  302. on 21 Apr 2013 at 3:08 pm 302.alex said …

    uhhm, they conduct religious wars, oppress women, homosexuals, other nationalities, other religions, and should I go on?

    a savage? au contraire mon fraire, once they realize, the world will be more civilized and caring. sure, there will always be assholes, but not because of their religion.

    what about the atheist this, atheist that, ape evolution, hitler, blah, blah? everybody knows, it’s crap. they think by constantly repeating it, it will become true. remember the church back then? the earth is the center of the universe, the earth is the center…

  303. on 21 Apr 2013 at 4:17 pm 303.Fluttershy said …

    Good point, they are already a scary religion :P

  304. on 13 May 2013 at 11:57 pm 304.Fr. James Rosselli said …

    How sad this all is! This poor man, invested with the dignity of the Image of God, and denying it; offered eternal life, free of the dimensional limitations that hold us back, here, and rejecting it; and made so bitter and empty in the process, he attempts to convince others to follow him, as if
    he could make something real by gathering enough advocates for it.

    Of couirse, prayer works! I have daily experience of it!

    Now, going before God and pretending to be His equal, going, “Okay, God, it says such-and-such here, so prove to me You’re real by doing it!” doesn’t work. We are not God’s equals, and for Him to respond to such a thing would be to enter into our self-created fantasy–when what He really wants is to draw us into Reality.

    Atheism is a trap. It is a sales job to convince us a shabby flophouse is a luxury hotel, a hoax that imposes on our life limits that don’t actually exist. It is nothing more than the angry insistence of our vanity and envy, a refusal to accept that there is anything greater than “Me.”

    An atheist is an unhappy man, living a resentful life and promising nothingness as something.

    A Christian is a happy man, living a joyful life even when he’s experiencing sorrow, and conveying God’s Promise of hope, a future, and a present reality that reveals itself as much more than anything we could create for ourselves.

    Why would we want to listen to anyone whose objective is to destroy our hope and embitter our lives, and deny us access to the beauty which is all around us, and the joy that comes from letting that beauty put us in touch with its–and our–Creator? Such a one is always talking about what “makes sense,” but honestly–what sense does
    that make?

    If you would like to discuss this further, you can write me at:

    fortunatelygodisreal@yahoo.com

    in Christ,

    Fr. Jim +

  305. on 14 May 2013 at 2:24 am 305.alex said …

    304.Fr. James Rosselli said …

    begone you dumb, friar, motherfucker. what makes you think your shit carries any more weight than the rest of the dipshits.

    eternal life? what a fucking joke. it goes hand in hand with that ultimate bullshit called redemption. atheists can see right thru your ruse, you transparent, righteous, bible thumping fuck. go! of course, you won’t be back, like the rest of the assholes.

    next, rollcall for the rest of the idiot socks.

  306. on 14 May 2013 at 2:44 am 306.Anonymous said …

    Jim, you come over as a very angry, bitter man, afraid of everything and anything that doesn’t fit into you delusional fairytale.

    Perhaps you would be better living a happy life rather than wasting this one afraid of eternal torment, afraid of finding out that you are wrong and – and this comes over in spades – desperately, fearfully afraid of someone taking away your “hope”.

    Perhaps if you substituted reality and a joy of living, you wouldn’t be so afraid of losing your “hope”.

    We all hope you can find happiness in what is left of your life. Giving up your desperate “hope” for the nonsense of eternal life might be a good start.

  307. on 14 May 2013 at 2:53 am 307.Anonymous said …

    BTW, if Christianity were true, you wouldn’t be living in hope you’d be wishing for this life to end so as to move to the next. Yet Christians cling to this one with the desperation of a drowning man snatching at a lifeboat.

    Your actions betray the falsity of your words.

  308. on 14 May 2013 at 10:36 am 308.Fluttershy said …

    ‘Of couirse, prayer works! I have daily experience of it!’

    No, it does not, amputees prove this.

    ‘An atheist is an unhappy man’

    I am an atheist, i am also happy (most of the time), your argument is invalid.

    ‘Atheism is a trap. It is a sales job to convince us a shabby flophouse is a luxury hotel, a hoax that imposes on our life limits that don’t actually exist. It is nothing more than the angry insistence of our vanity and envy, a refusal to accept that there is anything greater than “Me.”’

    Honestly, i dont know what to say, this sentence makes no sense at all…

    ‘Now, going before God and pretending to be His equal, going, “Okay, God, it says such-and-such here, so prove to me You’re real by doing it!”’

    in the bible it states many things, these things are impossible, and no matter how hard you try, will not happen, ever. This proves that he cannot do these things, and hence doesnt exist. If i had indefinite power, i would have designed a more efficient race and helped them do anything they liked, i would not want worship (a little would be nice ;P), just ask and i would do it. this makes me better than your god.

  309. on 14 May 2013 at 11:06 am 309.Anonymous said …

    Fluttershy, the fact that you are not the sadistic, sociopathic, genocidal, capricious monster with low self-esteem that is Yahweh of the bible, makes you considerably better than his impotent god.

  310. on 14 May 2013 at 11:38 am 310.Fluttershy said …

    exactly this.

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