Feed on Posts or Comments 22 October 2014

Christianity Johnson on 23 Oct 2008 12:06 am

The Christian desire to kill

Here is a blog posting from a Christian mom of four living in Farmington, NM:

Perilous Times: Sodomites in School

The post opens with this paragraph:

When I was in the process of moving and did not have internet access, I often visited a local library to check my e-mail and look at real estate listings. This particular library was in a small town and seemed to be a popular after school hangout for teenagers. One day as I was surfing the net, I couldn’t help but overhear a conversation that was going on across the table from me. An openly gay teenage boy who was surrounded by female “friends” was talking about how he had recently had a relationship with a girl. I couldn’t help but feel sorry for the girl’s parents. Not only was their daughter sexually active, but she had engaged in some very high risk behavior by sleeping with a gay male.

She also points out that, “The term bisexual is an unnecessary distinction, because a faggot wants to defile anyone or anything he can get his hands on.”

And then she flatly states her desire to murder everyone who participates in same-sex relationships:

A friend recently sent me this article about a “gay-friendly” high school. If we were living in a biblical society, homosexuality would be punishable by death so such a school would be unnecessary. Although I’m against the special accommodations, perhaps this new trend of segregation will protect straight kids from these predators. With any luck, some radical will blow up the gay school. No, I’m not condoning vigilantism–I’m merely saying that it would be poetic justice.

Her reference to a “biblical society” comes from Leviticus 20:13:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Lest you think that this is an isolated incident, Jimmy Swaggart expresses similar sentiments:

Homophobia is a strongly held belief amongst millions of Christians. How strong? Strong enough that it has been written into the 2008 Republican platform. The platform demands a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. Unable to murder in cold blood as the Bible demands without being arrested, Christians move to deny civil rights.

If you were to ask a Christian where this homophobia comes from, they would state that it is the word of God in the Bible.

If that is the case, then why don’t Christians work on God’s other death sentences? For example, in the Exodus 31:14 we find this:

Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Why don’t we see a plank in the platform demanding a constitutional amendment about working on the Sabbath?

What about Leviticus 20:10:

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Jesus covers this topic as well in Matthew 5:31:

And it was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of dismissal’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Combining Leviticus 20:10 with Matthew 5:31, the tens of millions of Americans who are divorced should be murdered. Why isn’t there a proposed amendment to cover adulterers and divorcees?

This perverse desire to kill others and to deny them their rights is a hallmark of religion. As is the complete inconsistency. If Christians are hell-bent to kill one group of people because “the Bible says so”, they should be just as hell-bent to kill everyone that the Bible discusses.

Any rational person looks at all the death sentences and bigotry in the Bible and sees the obvious. The Bible is insane and should be discarded. It might be studied as a relic and an object of historical interest, but it otherwise has absolutely no place in civil society. The people who follow the Bible are completely deluded. They should be offered treatment like any other deluded person.

39 Responses to “The Christian desire to kill”

  1. on 23 Oct 2008 at 11:36 am 1.Hermes said …

    My question to Christians is simple;

    What are you doing to address the bigotry and violence advocated in the name of your religion or your deity?

  2. on 23 Oct 2008 at 12:42 pm 2.Red O'Brien said …

    Luckily, with Swaggart’s track record, he’ll be put to death. Right? I mean, it’s in the bible.

    Also, it’s nice to see that he’s chosen sides in the current political race. At 1:10 in the video, he says “It’s an Obama nation” three times. Hee hee.

  3. on 23 Oct 2008 at 12:57 pm 3.Hermes said …

    “Obama nation” indeed. Consider Swaggart to be a prophet.

  4. on 23 Oct 2008 at 1:01 pm 4.Paula said …

    Hi there,

    Thank you for the strong fight against this horrific problem. The only weakness that i saw, is that you are throwing away the baby with the baby water. You are not using the fine comb approach toward this issue. First you are throwing away the bible completed, and there are good parts in there too, that have motivated people to dedicate their lives to poverty, like mother Theresa. So if you are serious about this issue “people hating Homosexuality”.

  5. on 23 Oct 2008 at 1:02 pm 5.Paula said …

    First you can’t alienate those christians who split from their churches and started news one to allow same sex marriage. In writing from Canada, if that makes a difference. Also there are many religions that you need to add that also would kill people who participate in same sex relationships.
    What are doing to lobby the government, what is you website doing in terms of helping people write letters to Mayors, etc.
    You spend more time proving something that everyone knows. The Christian faith does not allow same sex relationships, then you do providing people with resources.
    From a place that fought hard to get same sex marriage, it is actually a big disappointment…your web site blog.

    Hope to see increased efforts, not more trying to prove something that everyone knows.
    What are going to do about it?

  6. on 23 Oct 2008 at 1:07 pm 6.Paula said …

    sorry, I meant. What is your website going to do about it. How will it help people find some practical answers if they want to help?

  7. on 23 Oct 2008 at 2:26 pm 7.Hermes said …

    Paula, there are 700+ blogs with an explicit atheist point of view. Not all of them can or should be passive.

    I’ve had a discussion with someone on the forums here where he brought up both the Christian deity God and Christian Satan. When I told him flatly that I did not think either existed, his response was to ignore what I said and to talk about how I of course thought Satan existed … and then he asked me why since I did (???) why I did not think God existed.

    To say some people are stubborn is overly mild. Wilfully ignorant is the proper term in these cases!

    The niche that this site fits into is very specific;

    * Blunt.

    * Focused on educated Christians.

    * No philosophical navel gazing. No angel on pin counting.

    * ‘Just the facts Mam.’

  8. on 23 Oct 2008 at 2:35 pm 8.Hermes said …

    RE: Agnes Bojaxhiu / “Mother Teresa”. She was not in reality a positive roll model during her life, only as a figurehead used for publicity, and toward the end of it she did not have the courage to admit what she knew was true; there were no gods speaking to her because there were no gods.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60

    On the other hand, former President Jimmy Carter who spoke of his religious beliefs frequently in private, was. His work with Habitat for Humanity has helped many thousands of people.

    Yet, the greatest humanitarian was and is Norman Borlaug;

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=1509.msg28829#msg28829

  9. on 23 Oct 2008 at 2:45 pm 9.Hermes said …

    As for resources, I agree. There should be more so people can act and learn once they are either concerned or curious.

  10. on 23 Oct 2008 at 4:36 pm 10.SteveK said …

    What are you doing to address the bigotry and violence advocated in the name of your religion or your deity?

    First. My deity and my religion doesn’t advocate this violence as far as my understanding of historical, traditional Christianity goes. At least I haven’t seen the official memo – because there is no official spokesperson outside of the Pope and he doesn’t advocate it.

    Second. People advocate all kinds of nonsense and opinion. It’s called nonsense because it makes no sense to the majority that subscribes to the beliefs held by traditional Christianity. As Christians we have a responsibility to correct – and if that doesn’t work – to shun the people who advocate violence. That is done all the time, in private and in public.

    If it gets to the point of shunning, these people usually separate from the rest of us and form their own group or church of likeminded violent people. Sometimes these shunned groups get large and vocal, but it doesn’t change the fact that the problem HAS been addressed.

    Third. As a general rule, why is bigotry wrong but bigotry of bigotry is OK according to you? You are clearly bigoted of my bigotry against certain things. Explain that to me.

  11. on 23 Oct 2008 at 4:44 pm 11.Red O'Brien said …

    Well, you’re obviously displaying bigotry about his bigotry about your bigotry

    This could go on all day.

    Swaggart is obviously advocating violence. How did his flock shun him?

  12. on 23 Oct 2008 at 5:00 pm 12.Red O'Brien said …

    Religion touches many lives every day. Uh, just maybe not in the way one might expect…

    From Peter Ornstein
    CNN

    OAKLAND, California (CNN) — Terrie Light stands outside Oakland’s stunning new modern cathedral in a first-of-its-kind garden that honors victims of clergy sexual abuse. She was abused by a priest at age 7.

    “It’s a really small, important physical representation of a horrific thing that happened in many places,” she told CNN.

    She says the garden’s centerpiece, a symbolic low stone sculpture that’s broken, is fitting for those whose lives were shattered by priests. “The energy that the artist put was this circular stone trying to pull itself to become unbroken. That is our journey. That is what we try to do every day — is to try to be unbroken.”

  13. on 23 Oct 2008 at 6:42 pm 13.Hermes said …

    SteveK, I’ll go over your reply in parts. Thank you for your detailed response.

    Bigotry by Christians of those they disaprove of is systemec. You may not think that it is distasteful for someone to be an atheist or a homosexual or (not too many years ago) not white or a Jew. If that’s the case, good. What I’m concerned about is the *actions* performed by Christians in the name of Christianity.

    I asked: “What are you doing to address the bigotry and violence advocated in the name of your religion or your deity?”

    Normally, I would not care what people do or what they believe. As long as it remains in private, I still don’t care. Yet, the question I posed was about the public face of many Christians and Christian groups.

    The reason I asked that question — what are you doing — is to light a fire under you and other Christians. To get you out there and do something about the mess that’s being made. If enough Christians did the right thing, I would not feel the public responsibility to deal with it myself.

    “First. My deity and my religion doesn’t advocate this violence as far as my understanding of historical, traditional Christianity goes.”

    Well, as you know I don’t blame your deity for anything as I have not been shown that it exists. Additionally, I will grant that if it does exist it may have been misquoted or misinterpreted. I do look at the artefacts of the religion of Christianity and the acts done in the name of Christianity.

    (Note: If someone calls themselves a Christian I consider them a Christian. You may not, but I don’t see how that releases your or other Christians from stepping up and doing something about the tar job these people are doing on your religion. Silence to me is complicity.)

    “At least I haven’t seen the official memo – because there is no official spokesperson outside of the Pope and he doesn’t advocate it.”

    No, the Pope and other religious leaders do damage by secondary effects; working against condom use, working against vaccines. The violence happens as a result when bodies are torn apart from disease.

    “Second. People advocate all kinds of nonsense and opinion. It’s called nonsense because it makes no sense to the majority that subscribes to the beliefs held by traditional Christianity. As Christians we have a responsibility to correct – and if that doesn’t work – to shun the people who advocate violence. That is done all the time, in private and in public.”

    So, as a Christian, when they cause harm in the name of Christianity, you just disassociate yourself with them?

    “If it gets to the point of shunning, these people usually separate from the rest of us and form their own group or church of likeminded violent people. Sometimes these shunned groups get large and vocal, but it doesn’t change the fact that the problem HAS been addressed.”

    Where do you think they go when you’re done making that astounding sacrifice of shunning them? Seems many of them end up with quite a few supporters that pay money to promote them into institutes of bigotry. Foundations of ignorance. Such as Falwell’s orginzation. Such as Swaggart’s. Robertson’s. Even when the leaders are dropped in the ground, the machine continues, just like the ghost of Luther stoaked the fires of WWII.

    If Christians will not deal with other Christians effectively, the best thing I can think of is to reduce the number of Christians that would support these people. The best way to do that is to show people that deconverting from Christianity is a viable option.

    “Third. As a general rule, why is bigotry wrong but bigotry of bigotry is OK according to you? You are clearly bigoted of my bigotry against certain things. Explain that to me. ”

    No idea how to parse that. Do you mean “Why is it OK for anyone to be a bigot?” It isn’t. They have freedom of speech, but just like the KKK they will be called on any public statement or act that is harmful.

    Yet, as an atheist, how much do you think they will listen to me? I’m one of the ‘evil people’. You, as a Christian, are in the group. Your voice carries weight. Your inaction also carries weight — showing them that it’s OK to continue to be bigots.

  14. on 23 Oct 2008 at 6:54 pm 14.SteveK said …

    Well, you’re obviously displaying bigotry about his bigotry about your bigotry

    True. The question remains: is bigotry OK or not?

    Swaggart is obviously advocating violence. How did his flock shun him?

    I don’t know much about Swaggart and I didn’t watch the video. To answer your question, I don’t know.

  15. on 23 Oct 2008 at 7:33 pm 15.SteveK said …

    So, as a Christian, when they cause harm in the name of Christianity, you just disassociate yourself with them?

    Of course not. Physical harm is usually assocated with illegal activity so I would also ask that they be charged. Emotional harm isn’t necessarily a bad thing so my answer may be different there depending on the situation.

    If someone calls themselves a Christian I consider them a Christian.

    For the most part I do too unless given a good reason to think otherwise. Ultimately it’s above my pay grade to judge because I’m not God.

    The person who blows stuff up in the name of Christianity will NOT be considered a Christian. If God really, truly spoke to them directly and told them to blow stuff up then that is between God and them. Until God tells me otherwise I will support all efforts to have them hunted down like the dogs they are.

    You may not, but I don’t see how that releases your or other Christians from stepping up and doing something about the tar job these people are doing on your religion. Silence to me is complicity.

    What silence? There’s a boatload of effort going into teaching traditional Christianity every day of the week to millions of people. Call it preventative maintenance or a preemptive strike against the kooks who try to tar and feather Christianity.

    The result of this non-silent activity is that the bleedin’ obvious doesn’t need to be defended or explained because it’s obvious. The guy blowing stuff up in the name of Christianity isn’t acting very Christian – and everyone KNOWS it. Even you can recognize that because it’s obvious.

  16. on 23 Oct 2008 at 7:57 pm 16.Red O'Brien said …

    Steve,

    No, it’s not obvious. Just like Swaggart, the Bible advocates killing homosexuals. If you want me to find the verse for you, I will. How can you defend that? If there’s a later verse that says, “Oops, sorry we didn’t really mean that,” please point it out to me.

    Do you support the idea that killing homosexuals is the right thing to do? If not, aren’t you ignoring the Bible’s call to action on that front?

  17. on 23 Oct 2008 at 8:02 pm 17.SteveK said …

    Where do you think they go when you’re done making that astounding sacrifice of shunning them? Seems many of them end up with quite a few supporters that pay money to promote them into institutes of bigotry. Foundations of ignorance.

    I can hear your mocking tone in that first sentence, but seriously what do you propose that Christians do beyond what I said is already being done?

    You can’t convert, teach or convince the unwilling or the unable. It’s not a crime to be ignorant or say hateful things. I don’t want to give up the right to free speech nor do I want to live in a Minority Report kind of society. Any suggestions?

    Yet, as an atheist, how much do you think they will listen to me? … You, as a Christian, are in the group.

    I agree with them in principle that same sex relationships should be discouraged so I can’t argue on your behalf there. Where you and I agree (no violence, equal rights) I can argue the point. As I said above, that is being done daily.

  18. on 23 Oct 2008 at 8:08 pm 18.SteveK said …

    No, it’s not obvious.

    I can’t help you then. For some reason it’s obvious to billions of other people.

  19. on 23 Oct 2008 at 8:17 pm 19.Red O'Brien said …

    So is Islam.

    But I noticed you didn’t answer the question.

    Seriously, I’m interested in the way your mind works. I have a natural curiosity about things such as this. How do you rationalize the barbaric parts of the Bible?

    Is that verse in Leviticus a figure of speech?

  20. on 23 Oct 2008 at 10:35 pm 20.Hermes said …

    SteveK, I have nothing more to say.

  21. on 24 Oct 2008 at 12:24 am 21.Anon said …

    SteveK said, “The guy blowing stuff up in the name of Christianity isn’t acting very Christian – and everyone KNOWS it. Even you can recognize that because it’s obvious.”

    Millions of Christians would cheer if a guy blew up an abortion clinic or a homosexual club. They would say it is God’s will. Your claim that “it’s obvious” is entirely incorrect.

  22. on 24 Oct 2008 at 1:16 pm 22.SteveK said …

    Millions of Christians would cheer if a guy blew up an abortion clinic or a homosexual club. They would say it is God’s will. Your claim that “it’s obvious” is entirely incorrect.

    What you are saying is ‘Christian’ has no behavioral definition such that it’s obvious when you are in ‘non-Christian’ territory. In other words, to be Christian means to behave any way you want in any situation.

    Obviously this isn’t correct.

  23. on 24 Oct 2008 at 1:34 pm 23.SteveK said …

    How do you rationalize the barbaric parts of the Bible?

    For starters I don’t accept arguments that defeat themselves. You know the kind…the argument that says morality is whatever you make it to be and then goes on to argue that everyone should think something is barbaric. That means I require morality to be grounded in something more than an opinion.

    Mostly though I listen to people smarter than I am who know about ancient cultures, ancient literature, theology, history, etc so that I don’t jump to incorrect conclusions or make the mistake of seeing the bible through modern eyes.

    Is that verse in Leviticus a figure of speech?

    I don’t think it is nor do I think it is meant to be a transcendent guideline or rule.

  24. on 24 Oct 2008 at 1:41 pm 24.Red O'Brien said …

    So, yes, then? You think gay should be killed?

  25. on 24 Oct 2008 at 1:54 pm 25.Red O'Brien said …

    Steve,

    I realize I have as much chance of talking you out of religion as you have at talking me into religion. So we’ll just have to disagree.

    So I’ll make one last remark, then you can have the last word:

    If I was going to create a religion—and we already know there are hundreds out there, so why not one more?—the number one requirement would be that the believers would have to have faith. And the only unforgivable sin is failing to believe. You can murder, rape, steal, lie, and take part in all manner of despicable behaviors—but if you fail to believe, you are damned. What better way to enforce and coerce participation? What better way to frighten parents into indoctrinating their children at an early age? And what better way to dodge the question as to why there is no evidence to support my “religion.” The “faith” angle would be the foolproof way to stymie doubters. Strange how every known religion uses this very tactic.

    Good debating with you.

  26. on 24 Oct 2008 at 2:17 pm 26.SteveK said …

    So, yes, then? You think gay should be killed?

    So, no, I do not. I thought that was obvious too.

  27. on 24 Oct 2008 at 3:33 pm 27.SteveK said …

    You can murder, rape, steal, lie, and take part in all manner of despicable behaviors—but if you fail to believe, you are damned.

    Your simplistic view of salvation by grace explains why you don’t believe in it. You think salvation is based on mere belief – and that alone – without considering anything else. Almost as if an utterance of some magical, mystical words like ‘abracadabra’, ‘open sesame’, or ‘I believe’ is all it takes. It is said, Satan believes in God and yet he is forever damned. Could it possibly have something to do with humility leading to that ever important saving grace and pride leading to that ever damning separation? Which one do you possess?

  28. on 24 Oct 2008 at 5:13 pm 28.Hermes said …

    “Your simplistic view of salvation by grace explains why you don’t believe in it.”

    Incorrect. The supernatural aspects of Christianity itself are just not credible. Belief has to be based on something.

  29. on 24 Oct 2008 at 5:34 pm 29.SteveK said …

    Belief has to be based on something.

    Of course. First century followers believed in the non-natural occurance of a resurrected body. You might disagree with them as to reasons why, but it is belief based on something.

    SteveK, I have nothing more to say.

    You wish to retract this?

  30. on 29 Oct 2008 at 3:00 am 30.Alan said …

    Why? I ask myself, are so many people here and in our world out to prove the nonexistence of our loving God and King? What benefit does anyone gain by trying to prove that the Lord God Almighty does not exist? Self recognition perhaps, but that day will never come! I ask with true question, why do you,(anyone out there set on destroying belief in our God)go to such great depths to prove your hopeless, wretched , beliefs? At least ours contains hope in the Eternal God and everlasting life and love!

  31. on 29 Oct 2008 at 4:37 am 31.Alan said …

    Red O’Brien
    Your discussion with SteveK about gay people is very interesting? Here are some verses I looked up for you to examine and anyone esle who cares to on the matter and discussion on”killing homosexuals”
    “all verses found in New Testament”

    Romans 10:4″Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

    Romans 6:14″For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.”

    Galations 5:3-4 ” Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

    These versus not only show how God’s grace is enough to save us and how through faith we’re saved (along with the life we live) in that the law’s step by step rituals is not what brings us salvations. Only through Jesus are we saved! This verse is the verse I stand on for what I just said

    Romans 13:8-10″Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. ”
    Another conversation is, Which laws did Jesus say were not bound to any longer? There we’re three categories of laws:ceremonial,civil, and moral. Ceremonial law was originally related to the Israel’s worship. these laws were mainly made to point forward to Jesus Christ, therefore, these laws were no longer necessary after Jesus’ death and resurrection. Though no longer obligated to uphold these laws, the principles-to worship and love a holy God-still apply.

    The civil law applied to daily living in Israel. Though each and every guideline taught back then in their time, cannot be followed specifically due to the time and setting, the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our daily ways of living. Jesus demonstrated these priciples by example.

    And lastly the moral law “the Ten Commandments” is the direct command of God and it requires strict obedience. The moral law reveals the will and nature of God and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the moral law completely!

    I pray that these things I’ve written will help clarify any questions or misunderstandings any one has on these issues, I am greatful to God our Father that he has let me have an opportunity,such as, this to write about my beliefs in Him to the best of my understanding.God loves each and every one of us the same no matter what we do, but in the end so few will enter through those pearly gates I pray that God will work in each and every one of our lives to do his will! In brotherly love

    Alan Frisk

  32. on 29 Oct 2008 at 10:16 am 32.Hermes said …

    Alan: “I ask with true question, why do you,(anyone out there set on destroying belief in our God)go to such great depths to prove your hopeless, wretched , beliefs? At least ours contains hope in the Eternal God and everlasting life and love!”

    Alan, a little dramatic don’t you think? After all, nobody gets upset about Zeus existing … yet nobody has disproved Him (Zeus). Of course your god God exists … just as Zeus does.

    As for ‘hopeless, wretched’ go tell that to the godless Scandinavians. Happy. Low crime. High education. High estimation on personal well being. Very low % with beliefs in a supernatural deity of any kind.

    Don’t believe me? Do your own research;

    General: http://nationmaster.com
    Religion: http://adherents.com

    Sure, you could cherry pick the statistics to say whatever you want … but look at the trend across multiple countries.

  33. on 29 Oct 2008 at 10:19 am 33.Hermes said …

    Alan, to address you other comments, I point you to this forum post;

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=1990.msg40778#msg40778

  34. on 29 Oct 2008 at 10:30 am 34.Hermes said …

    Alan, if you don’t want to do the leg work yourself, Phil Zuckerman has written a book that goes over the statistical data showing that godless societies tend to do very very well;

    “Based on a careful assessment of the most recent survey data available, we find that somewhere between 500,000,000 and 750,000,000 humans currently do not believe in God. Such figures render any suggestion that theism is innate or neurologically based untenable… High levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism.” — Phil Zuckerman

    Video interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vc7v7em_4

    Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment
    http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1

  35. on 29 Oct 2008 at 11:06 am 35.Red O'Brien said …

    Alan,

    I’m afraid you’ve done what a lot of unskilled debaters do: you rambled on and said a lot of unrelated stuff, but you didn’t answer any of my questions. If you’re going to suddenly show up and criticize my questions, answer them first. It’s as if the following exchange took place:

    Me: Why do you drive a gas guzzler?

    You: My Hummer has blue paint and six cupholders.

    Me: But it uses a lot of gas. Why do you drive it?

    You: What about your Honda? Why don’t you buy American?

    So, I’ll give you one more shot:

    Leviticus 20:13 clearly states that gays should be put to death:

    If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    How do you justify a Bible that condones murder for homosexuality? That, of course, is just one of many barbaric aspects of the Bible. But for starters, let’s talk about just this one aspect.

  36. on 06 Nov 2008 at 3:03 am 36.Alan said …

    Red O’Brien I apalogize if my answer did not make sense, I did my best to show how the law should be regarded and followed in our lives. The one verse that caught my attention was the one previous Leviticus 20:13 Lev 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.”

    this seems pretty harsh now a days escpecially with the arguement of grace, so…this is what Jesus said in John 8

    1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

    11″No one, sir,” she said.
    “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

    This does not give us an excuse or free pass to do what ever we want,certainly not the message, but we are to leave our life of sin.

    I hope Red O’Brien this answered your question,(sorry it took so long to get back to ya on it, no computer priveleges last week!!)

    well…I got an essay to write thats do Tomorrow!!! Hermes I hope I get the privelege to write to you on your reply soon if it’s the Lord’s will, and same to any one else who wants to listen!!!
    Love ya all
    Alan Frisk

  37. on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:08 am 37.nugget said …

    “How do you justify a Bible that condones murder for homosexuality? That, of course, is just one of many barbaric aspects of the Bible. But for starters, let’s talk about just this one aspect.”

    Easy, you can say it was a trend back in the day.. Basically, i agree that people of religion are mislead by churches as Mr. Swaggart proves. Therefore, in reference to my first statement; the laws presented in the old testament was a modern trend in those days as the majority is stated in the “Code of Hammurabi”. All types of laws and regulations were presented for people to maintain order amongst people.

    http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

    Nevertheless, did not Jesus throw people out of His Father’s house because they were selling animals? My question is how can we blame God for people’s wrong doing?

    My understanding of all this misleading information was dirived by man, not by a deity. Christians have destroyed what is the belief in a God over many of generations, but that does not leave out the rest of the religions. In conclusion, my theory along with others can state that religion displays a further line of “Man and God”.

  38. on 06 Nov 2008 at 12:01 pm 38.Red O'Brien said …

    Alan, even though you still didn’t address the verse at hand, I’ll reply. You’re saying that Jesus had to change the earlier word of God. Previously, God said that adulterers should be stoned, but Jesus said, “Nah, that’s okay. Let’s not do that anymore.” That means God was imperfect. Why would he command people to behave that way if it wasn’t what he really wanted? Alan, I can promise you this: Your life really will be much more enjoyable if you quit buying into this religious rubbish–assuming you have the mental and emotional wherewithal to live without a religious crutch.

    Nugget, I don’t even know what you’re babbling about.

  39. on 06 Nov 2008 at 12:10 pm 39.Red O'Brien said …

    Also, we shouldn’t forget what Jesus said earlier about adultery:

    27″You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

    So…was the wrong the first time, or wrong later? Not a very perfect savior, changing his mind like that. Or, there’s another possibility: The Bible is nothing but gibberish.

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