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Christianity Thomas on 20 Oct 2012 12:04 am

The insanity of religion – crushing the civil rights of others

This is a speech in front of the Springfield City Council, where they are debating a gay rights bill (Council Bill 2012-226)

Good evening, my name is the Reverend Dr. Phil Snider. I was born and raised in Springfield, Missouri. And I stand before you this evening in support of this ordinance.

I worry about the future of our city. Any accurate reading of the bible should make it clear that gay rights goes against the plain truth of the word of god. As one preacher warns, man and overstepping the boundary lines god has drawn by making special rights for gays and lesbians has taken another step in the direction of inviting the judgment of god upon our land.

This step of gay rights is but another stepping stone toward the immorality and lawlessness that will be characteristic of the last days.

This ordinance represents a denial of all that we believe in and no one should force it on us. It’s not that we don’t care about homosexuals. But it’s that our rights will be taken away, and unchristian views will be forced on us and our children. For we would be forced to go against our personal morals. Outside government agents are endeavoring to disturb god’s established order. It is not in line with the bible – do not let people lead you astray.

The liberals leading this movement do not believe in the bible any longer. But every good, substantial, bible believing, intelligent, orthodox christian can read the word of god and know what is happening is not of god. When you run into conflict with god’s established order you have trouble. You do not produce harmony. You produce destruction and trouble and our city is in the greatest danger that it has have ever been in, in its history. The reason is that we have gotten away from the bible of our forefathers.

You see the right of segregation I’m sorry, hold on.

The right of segregation… is clearly established by the holy scriptures, both by precept and example.

I’m sorry I brought the wrong notes with me this evening. I borrowed my argument from the wrong century. It turns out what I’ve been reading to you this whole time are direct quotes from white preachers from the 1950′s and 1960′s, all in support of racial segregation. All I have done is simply taken out the phrase racial integration and substituted with the phrase gay rights.

I guess the arguments I’ve been hearing around Springfield lately sounded so similar to these that I got them confused. I hope you will not make the same mistake. I hope you will stand on the right side of history. Thank you.

The quotes he uses are amazing in their ignorance and bigotry. This is how religion, and the belief in an imaginary God, is used to crush the civil rights of other people.

The description of the video:

City council heard from the public as they debated a new rule adding LGBT people to the list of minorities protected from discrimination.

This other link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnuwFx0mpns) has 45 minutes of people who are actually arguing against the bill and comparing gay people to rapists and pedophiles.

This second video contains a parade of insanity.

159 Responses to “The insanity of religion – crushing the civil rights of others”

  1. on 20 Oct 2012 at 1:00 pm 1.rt said …

    What rights are gays denied?

    Forget marriage. It is not a right and gays do not meet the definition.

  2. on 20 Oct 2012 at 2:03 pm 2.JALindsay said …

    1,rt failed. Utterly.

  3. on 20 Oct 2012 at 3:34 pm 3.Slapnuts McGee said …

    That speech could be misinterpreted very easily, in my opinion.

    Regardless, christians, catholics, jews, muslims and ESPECIALLY mormons are all delusional as fuck. This fact couldn’t be more obvious.

  4. on 20 Oct 2012 at 4:03 pm 4.Lou(DFW) said …

    I think that speech was about a comparison of racism to homophobia, not an attack on gay rights.

    “I hope you will not make the same mistake. I hope you will stand on the right side of history.”

    However, I think those two comments are contradictory unless the city actually passed a similar ordinance against minorities.

    Regardless, his speech demonstrates the insanity of religion.

  5. on 20 Oct 2012 at 4:10 pm 5.Rostam said …

    Thomas and Brain you both show yourself to be the lying bigoted liberal mudslingers you truly are. This blog is great that it shows how unscrupulous atheist and especially liberals are.

  6. on 20 Oct 2012 at 4:12 pm 6.Rostam said …

    RT

    Gays are denied nothing. They have every right to get married. They must meet the same requirements as the rest of Americans.

  7. on 20 Oct 2012 at 4:13 pm 7.MrQ said …

    rt,
    Historically speaking: What rights were black folk denied? They had their own drinking fountains and bus seats, just like YOU and the other white folks had your own fountains and seats.

  8. on 20 Oct 2012 at 4:22 pm 8.MrQ said …

    From “The Rostrum”

    They have every right to get married. They must meet the same requirements as the rest of Americans.

    Same requirement? Different genitals?

    I want the gays to suffer just like 50+ % of the married population. Divorce, separation, and all the other good things about hetero-marriage. Is that wrong? Why not share!!

  9. on 20 Oct 2012 at 5:20 pm 9.Lou(DFW) said …

    8.MrQ said …

    “I want the gays to suffer just like 50+ % of the married population. Divorce, separation, and all the other good things about hetero-marriage. Is that wrong? Why not share!!”

    Not to mention that marriage has its roots in religion. The truth of the matter is that modern marriage is nothing but a financial contract, and gender isn’t a factor in such a contract.

    The religious are only reacting in the only way the know how whenever their religion is again reduced to the ancient superstition that it is. They react like the ancient, ignorant, superstitious.

  10. on 20 Oct 2012 at 5:43 pm 10.Rostam said …

    Mr. Q,

    Why do you hate polygamist? What about their rights?

    I could see a great scenario for one man get 6000 woman to legally marry him so they can all enjoy tax breaks.

    That’s what it is all really about, money. They want to redefine a word for their small minority but they are selfish. They want it redefined just for the gays.

    Gays sit in the same seats, drink form the same fountains and work the same jobs as everyone else. They have all the same rights.

    My poor grandma cannot drive because she can’t pass the eye test. Who will be campaigning for her? She sees well enough and her civil rights are being denied.

  11. on 20 Oct 2012 at 6:39 pm 11.JALindsay said …

    We need new theists here. We need some that can make valid arguments. Stuff like 10.Rostam isn’t even fun anymore. What a buffoon.

  12. on 20 Oct 2012 at 7:03 pm 12.Anonymous said …

    We need new theists here.

    What we need are theists rather than argumentative individuals who post here as theists but often use this blog as an excuse to indulge in their anger and displeasure against people who don’t share the same sociopolitical views as they do.

  13. on 20 Oct 2012 at 8:17 pm 13.Lou(DFW) said …

    12.Anonymous said …

    “What we need are theists rather than argumentative individuals who post here as theists but often use this blog as an excuse to indulge in their anger and displeasure against people who don’t share the same sociopolitical views as they do.”

    Yes, and I don’t doubt that Rostam(ASS) is another OCD sock-puppet who can’t differentiate between such views and theism.

  14. on 20 Oct 2012 at 8:20 pm 14.Lou(DFW) said …

    11.JALindsay said …

    “We need new theists here. We need some that can make valid arguments. Stuff like 10.Rostam isn’t even fun anymore. What a buffoon.”

    Now you know why I sometimes refer to Xenon-Rostam as Xenonsense.

    The problem is that this person is an idiot, and as such, he thinks that we all think at the same low intellectual level as he does – he can’t help but think that.

  15. on 20 Oct 2012 at 9:20 pm 15.alex said …

    what we need is to enslave and kill these fucken theists. then we can stone the rest of the adulterers. how’s that for some dumb shiiyat? ain’t no goddamn difference than these righteous motherfuckers testifying like they’re some fucken holier than thou shit.

  16. on 21 Oct 2012 at 12:55 am 16.Lou said …

    “I could see a great scenario for one man get 6000 woman to legally marry him so they can all enjoy tax breaks.”

    Not a bad idea to play the system Ros. I wonder how the “Gay Right Groups” would spin polygamy and harem as not falling under the definition of marriage? It is about choice last I checked. If you are attracted to 5 or 5000 woman what business is it of the gov’s? Maybe they hate Muslims.

    Just using their arguments. Ugh, their arguments drop the IQ a good ten points.

  17. on 21 Oct 2012 at 1:10 am 17.JALindsay said …

    That you couldn’t express an argument about polygamy without inserting an obviously sexist bias to it shows what your belief structure has done to your IQ.

  18. on 21 Oct 2012 at 3:11 am 18.Lou said …

    Should have know Jack would tell women they cannot be in a polygamist relationships or a harem. Probably wants to stop beauty pageants and shut down Hooters also. Libs and atheist believe in choice as long as it is their choice.

    Jack, your stupid burns please stop. The IQ …… under attack……must put up shields.

    Night cometh

  19. on 21 Oct 2012 at 12:03 pm 19.Lou(DFW) said …

    16.Louser said …

    “Not a bad idea to play the system Ros.”

    Poor OCD Louser, he simply cannot stay on topic. But that’s what theists do when they can’t provide evidence for their imaginary god.

  20. on 21 Oct 2012 at 2:39 pm 20.Lou(DFW) said …

    16.Louser said …

    “Just using their arguments. Ugh, their arguments drop the IQ a good ten points.”

    Then after ten more, you will be able to understand them.

  21. on 21 Oct 2012 at 7:00 pm 21.Ben said …

    “Then after ten more, you will be able to understand them.”

    Does DFW just realize what he said?

  22. on 21 Oct 2012 at 7:08 pm 22.Lou(DFW) said …

    21.Ben said …

    “Does DFW just realize what he said?”

    Yeah, do you, or do you have some evidence to offer for your imaginary god?

  23. on 21 Oct 2012 at 7:20 pm 23.The messenger said …

    Marriage was made for 2 reasons.

    1. A man and a woman to be happy together.

    2. For human reproduction.

  24. on 21 Oct 2012 at 8:25 pm 24.The messenger said …

    Guys are supose to marry girls.

  25. on 21 Oct 2012 at 9:16 pm 25.The messenger said …

    Guys are not suppose to marry guys.

    And Girls are not suppose to marry girls.

  26. on 21 Oct 2012 at 10:33 pm 26.alex said …

    “Marriage was made for 2 reasons.”
    “Guys are supose to marry girls.”
    “Guys are not suppose to marry guys.”

    and you’re supposed to stone adulterers and sunday workers, you fuckin cowardly bible nitpickin piece of shit. what? it’s allegorical?

    the bible is bullshit, give it up. if you’re feeling gay, it’s okay. don’t feel bad, get a brad.

  27. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:04 am 27.JALindsay said …

    I’m going to do something about the elephant in the room.

    Hey messenger, buddy, next time you meet with God, do you think you could have him teach you to spell? Commenting/forum etiquette would be nice too.

  28. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:04 am 28.The messenger said …

    26.alex you are not suppose to stone any one. It is ok to work on Sunday, the only reason that some people do not is because that is the day God finished making the Earth.

    The bible is not bullshit.

  29. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:08 am 29.The messenger said …

    27.JALindsay my computer does not have a spell check installed on it yet.

    You have just proven how weak your argument really is, by commenting on spelling errors that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    I pitty you.

    I pray for you to replies that God is real.

  30. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:28 am 30.Lou said …

    I’m going to do something about the elephant in the room.

    Hey alex, buddy, next time you meet with your parole officer, do you think you could have him teach you to spell? Commenting/forum etiquette would be nice too.

    Messenger,

    At least you have a much larger vocabulary than alex, the prison blogger. Too many days in the hole and lost his man to another.

    Ben,

    No, he has no clue.

  31. on 22 Oct 2012 at 2:47 am 31.Lou(DFW) said …

    28.LouSER said …

    “Hey alex, buddy, next time you meet with your parole officer, do you think you could have him teach you to spell? Commenting/forum etiquette would be nice too.”

    Poor Louser, HE doesn’t have a clue.

    Messenger is supposed to be speaking for god. Why can’t god have a messenger who can actually compose a coherent and grammatically correct comment? Alex isn’t making any similar claim. And his posting style is obviously intentional. Do you want to claim that god’s messenger intentionally posts with the style of an uneducated idiot? Or does he do it only to make you appear intelligent?

  32. on 22 Oct 2012 at 3:09 am 32.MrQ said …

    From “the Rostrum”

    Mr. Q,
    Why do you hate polygamist? What about their rights?

    When did I say I hated polygamists? There is nothing wrong with one man marrying more than one educated, rational, un-indoctrinated woman or man ;-).
    The problem arises when 40 year old men marry (or are promised) numerous teenaged brides. The women in these sects are brought up with religious educations; in other words, they’re kept stupid. Their worldview is narrow in the extreme and based entirely on biblical interpretations. The women don’t stand a chance and have no ability to truly decide for themselves. Typically, xtian sects that promote polygamy are controlled by pedophiles.

  33. on 22 Oct 2012 at 10:43 am 33.The messenger said …

    30.Lou if Alex’s life is really that awful, I pray that he try’s to fix his life and start believing in God.

  34. on 22 Oct 2012 at 12:04 pm 34.alex said …

    “Hey alex, buddy, next time you meet with your parole officer”

    failed again. give it up. time and again, your miserable attempt to “lookey here” gets annoyingly boring. you divert attention from your god by poking fun at people, while at the same time congratulating your suspicious (self?) sock buddy.

    call me black, short, gay, a woman, liberal, immigrant, ugly, dying, whatever… it ain’t gonna work. your god is bull.

    “Lou if Alex’s life is really that awful…”

    asshole, you don’t know jack. my life is as good as it gets. i’m comfortable and i get along with everybody. morons and idiots i cannot let slide. you’re one.

    as usual, you morons got nothing for your god. just the typical blah, blah.

  35. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:18 pm 35.Lou(DFW) said …

    33.The messenger said …

    “30.Lou if Alex’s life is really that awful, I pray that he try’s to fix his life and start believing in God.”

    Messenger + god = epic fail (god is obviously incompetent)

  36. on 22 Oct 2012 at 1:20 pm 36.Lou(DFW) said …

    32.MrQ said …

    “The problem arises when 40 year old men marry (or are promised) numerous teenaged brides. The women in these sects are brought up with religious educations; in other words, they’re kept stupid.”

    Religion at work:

    http://childbrides.org/news.html

  37. on 22 Oct 2012 at 2:07 pm 37.Anonymous said …

    “religious education”, now there’s an oxymoron for you.

  38. on 22 Oct 2012 at 2:57 pm 38.Lou(DFW) said …

    30.Louser said …

    “Hey alex, buddy, next time you meet with your parole officer…”

    Poor Louser, instead of providing any evidence for his imaginary god, Louser and his many personas post personal insults and lies in order to vent the anger caused by the knowledge that religion and theism, and therefore their life, is a fraud. “Lousers” use this blog as a venue to vent and act-out.

  39. on 22 Oct 2012 at 4:05 pm 39.DPK said …

    Yup.. here we go again with the diversions and self delusions. Messenger says the bible doesn’t say to stone anyone… except it does. He says its ok to work on Sunday, except the bible clearly says it’s not.
    Rostrum tries to turn the debate about homophobia and civil rights to polygamy… next he’ll bring up bestiality… watch. And of course the whole Warren Jeffs, child bride, pedo thing will be dismissed with the simple claim that they are not “real” christians, and are misinterpreting god’s words… kind of like messenger is doing right now.
    It would all be kind of funny if it wasn’t so tragic. The delusional leading the deluded, and the one who god has had picked to talk to personally clearly has the cognitive ability of a 6 year old.

  40. on 22 Oct 2012 at 6:45 pm 40.JALindsay said …

    Messenger, you wouldn’t need a computer with spell-check if you could spell. Pray harder.

  41. on 22 Oct 2012 at 10:04 pm 41.Lou(DFW) said …

    39.DPK said …

    “And of course the whole Warren Jeffs, child bride, pedo thing will be dismissed with the simple claim that they are not “real” christians, and are misinterpreting god’s words…”

    As you know, that’s irrelevant because it’s what they believe with all the same certainty and fervor that all the other theists have.

  42. on 22 Oct 2012 at 10:59 pm 42.The messenger said …

    35.Lou(DFW) I was praying for Alex’s life to get better.

    Tell me, how is that incompedent.

  43. on 22 Oct 2012 at 11:05 pm 43.The messenger said …

    39.DPK let me reframe that for you.

    Every time that it mentions the word stoning in the bible, it just means punishment.

    During that time period the word stoning was a metaphor for punishment.

    If you had a brain you could understand that.

    Why are you so stupid.

  44. on 22 Oct 2012 at 11:19 pm 44.DPK said …

    In our locale right now there has been a little 13 year old girl gone missing. Facebook is on fire with people pledging to pray for her return or begging for others to pray for her. I wonder how many prayers loving, merciful god requires before he decides to save her? Will 10,000 be enough? Or is she doomed? What if the prayers come up say, 25 short of god’s requirement? Will he let her die or be raped at the hands of a monster because of “not enough” prayers?
    Now this much is certain, if she is found, god will get all of the credit. If she turns up dead, god will get none of the blame, and if she is never found, it will be a test from god for the greater good. But no one will say, (publicly anyway) that god allowed her to be taken from her family, brutialized, raped, and murdered, and stood by watching while thousands prayed fervently and faithfully for her safety.

  45. on 22 Oct 2012 at 11:39 pm 45.Curmudgeon said …

    “The quotes he uses are amazing in their ignorance and bigotry. This is how religion, and the belief in an imaginary God, is used to crush the civil rights of other people.”

    A quite interesting claim. So according to Thomas, our founders were ignorant and crushed the civil rights of homosexuals from the very founding of our nation.

    Thomas, will you answer this observation or will you ignore this challenge?

  46. on 23 Oct 2012 at 12:08 am 46.DPK said …

    So if stoning is simply a metaphor for punishment… Which form of punishment specifically is “stoning to DEATH” a metaphor for? And since the prescribed punishment is stipulated to result in DEATH…. How is it any different.
    And how very Christ like of you to call me stupid for asking a very legitimate question. You call me stupid to vent your anger at the fact that your answer is not only a lie…. It makes no sense at all.

  47. on 23 Oct 2012 at 12:21 am 47.Anonymous said …

    46.DPK – don’t feed the troll.

  48. on 23 Oct 2012 at 12:29 am 48.alex said …

    “our founders were ignorant and crushed the civil rights of homosexuals from the very founding of our nation.”

    what the fuck does the founders have anything to do with your homophobicness. face it. you hate homos because of your bullshit bible. it wouldn’t surprise me at all if you’re really a closet homo who’s attending counseling. it’s okay if you’re gay, but the counseling thing is iffy.

    “Thomas, will you answer this observation or will you ignore this challenge?”

    …translation
    Thomas, will you answer my weakass diversion or will you ignore my Curmudgeon bullsheeyat yet agaaaiin?

    like somebody gives two shits about your fucked up observations, like your uncontrollable urge to vomit when you see gays holding hands.

  49. on 23 Oct 2012 at 12:40 am 49.Lou(DFW) said …

    45.Crum said …

    “So according to Thomas, our founders were ignorant and crushed the civil rights of homosexuals from the very founding of our nation.”

    Crum, is your argument so weak that you must lie to make it? Show us ANYWHERE where either Thomas claimed that or that “our founders…crushed the civil rights of homosexuals from the very founding of our nation.”

    “Thomas, will you answer this observation or will you ignore this challenge?”

    You mean as you NEVER, EVER provide evidence for your imaginary god?

    But, I’ll answer your “observation” – you’re full of shit about it just as you about your imaginary god.

  50. on 23 Oct 2012 at 1:02 am 50.CastBound said …

    Curmud

    If this is true, the founders were homophobes. Blackstone’s commentaries on law used by the founders called homosexuality a crime against nature. Homosexual actions were dealt with harshly. To be fair, they should have tried to help these individuals with psychological counseling. Could be some sort of support did take place.

    But back to your point – If Thomas’ claims are true, the founders right off the bat did undeniably crushed the rights of homosexuals before the ink was dry on the Constitution. So who is out of the mainstream?

  51. on 23 Oct 2012 at 1:55 am 51.The messenger said …

    44.DPK it doesn’t matter how many people pray for her safety.

    God will save her if she is meant to be saved. If she is not, the she will go to heaven anyways.

    I pray to to God for her to be safe.

    Just out of Curiosity, what is this girl’s name.

  52. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:01 am 52.The messenger said …

    46.DPK the punishment rarely means death, because killing another human being is a sin if it is not in self defense or in defense of someone else’s life.

    I apologize for calling you stupid, I was just tied of answering the same question over and over again from different people.

  53. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:04 am 53.The messenger said …

    44.DPK if she is raped, then the person who raped her will burn in hell and suffer for a very long time.

  54. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:32 am 54.DPK said …

    The founders where also slave owners and men who could never fathom women having the ability to vote, no less hold office.
    So, we should embrace their views about homosexuals because they are a shining example of righteousness? Um…. Sure.

  55. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:50 am 55.The messenger said …

    57.DPK the founding fathers are great men. They did do a few things that were no good, but the good thing that they did do made up for the sins that they committed. The founders were and are great people, weather you believe if or not.

  56. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:54 am 56.The messenger said …

    The founders created the greatest county on Earth, America.
    They created a country based on freedom and the rights of Americans.

    PS. The founders were all Christians.

  57. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:54 am 57.The messenger said …

    46.DPK for your information, Christ died on the cross and suffered unbelievable pain just so we could go to heaven. Do you think that Christ has an easy job? He has the hardest job in the universe, he puts up with all the crap that mankind causes to it’s self and he still forgives us. After all of the things he has done for us, you still are not grateful. I think that God is really too patient and forgiving, he should send you to hell yet he chose to forgive you. Be grateful for Christ’s mercy.

  58. on 23 Oct 2012 at 3:24 am 58.Lou(DFW) said …

    50.CastBound said …

    “…the founders right off the bat did undeniably crushed the rights of homosexuals before the ink was dry on the Constitution. So who is out of the mainstream?”

    What difference does it make? Other than you, who mentioned “the mainstream,” and how is it relevant?

  59. on 23 Oct 2012 at 3:36 am 59.The messenger said …

    57.DPK the founding fathers are great men. They did do a few things that were no good, but the good thing that they did do made up for the sins that they committed. The founders were and are great people, weather you believe if or not.

  60. on 23 Oct 2012 at 2:29 pm 60.DPK said …

    Messenger… whoever told you the founding fathers of the US were all christians was telling you a lie.
    How old are you, 10?
    The point is not “weather” [sic] they were freat people, the point is should ideas from 300 years ago… like inequality for women, slavery, and persecution of homosexuals, be endorsed today, just because the “founding fathers” practiced them? I think George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at the idea of a woman serving as secretary of state… or any other position of power or authority. They would equally be appalled at the idea of racial equality or slaves being considered anything but “property”. Of course… these ideas are based on the bible as well.
    Wherever you went to school… go ask for your money back. ‘Cause you wuz robbed.

  61. on 23 Oct 2012 at 3:05 pm 61.Anonymous said …

    “PS. The founders were all Christians”

    It’s a taunt and he’s just trolling trying to get a rise out of people. Messenger has been losing momentum on other subjects so he’s changing course.

  62. on 23 Oct 2012 at 3:50 pm 62.DPK said …

    “It’s a taunt and he’s just trolling trying to get a rise out of people.”

    I think you give him more credit than he is due. He’s not that bright. If he were, he wouldn’t be “trolling” with a statement that is demonstrably false. I think he is just a product of a religious indoctrination… probably home schooled by born again idiots who spoon fed him lies all his life. His claim that god spoke to him and chose him as his personal spokesperson is obviously a cry for the attention and validation he seeks. You’d think that somebody to whom god speaks directly to would have a bit more accurate knowledge of historical facts.

  63. on 23 Oct 2012 at 3:59 pm 63.JALindsay said …

    Actually, DPK, many trolls intentionally do it with demonstrably false statements. Because they’re demonstrably false, people like us are easily lured into trying to correct them.

  64. on 23 Oct 2012 at 4:35 pm 64.DPK said …

    “44.DPK said …

    In our locale right now there has been a little 13 year old girl gone missing. Facebook is on fire with people pledging to pray for her return or begging for others to pray for her.”

    And tragically, overnight they found her body stuffed in a dumpster not far from her home. Predictably, the parrots have chimed in to tell the family to take comfort in the fact that she is now in the loving arms of the all merciful god… the same one they held a prayer rally the evening before to beg and pray for her safe return. Well, so much for that idea.

  65. on 23 Oct 2012 at 6:08 pm 65.LL said …

    The disproven myth of Epi. Well at least the parents are smarter than DPK.

    An evil being perpetuates an evil act but God is the blame. God”s answer was she is now with me. God does not always give what we ask. We all die but not always of old age. Yes, God lets u grow old too.

  66. on 23 Oct 2012 at 7:03 pm 66.Lou(DFW) said …

    65.LL said …

    “God”s answer was she is now with me.”

    God didn’t answer “she is now with me.” Or are you claiming that god himself told you that this girl is with him?

    Furthermore, how do you she isn’t with the “evil being?”

  67. on 23 Oct 2012 at 8:36 pm 67.JALindsay said …

    The moment you’re willing to assign credit for anything that God allegedly does, you have also forced the assumption of blame for everything he could have done but didn’t.

    Also, DPK’s story doesn’t blame God, it just says that the prayers didn’t work.

  68. on 23 Oct 2012 at 9:29 pm 68.DPK said …

    Right-o… how silly would it be for me to “blame god”? I don’t “blame god” because god doesn’t exist, except perhaps in your imagination.
    The point was to simply point out that the deluded would have been zealous of their proclamation of the power of prayer if the little girl had been found alive. In short, if good things happen, god gets the credit, but if bad things happen, its not his fault.
    If you believe things always happen for the best and according to his will… why do you folks ENDLESSLY tell people to pray for him to change his mind?
    Isn’t that rather arrogant and presumptuous of you?
    Really?

  69. on 23 Oct 2012 at 9:48 pm 69.The messenger said …

    60.DPK apparently you know nothing about the U.S. founding fathers.

    Here is proof that the founding fathers were and are Christians.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin#section_7.

  70. on 23 Oct 2012 at 9:49 pm 70.The messenger said …

    61.Anonymous I am on the same course.

  71. on 23 Oct 2012 at 9:54 pm 71.Anonymous said …

    This whole prayer thing and the doublethink that goes with it is utterly mystifying.

    We have people praying for intervention to a god that supposedly has a plan that has already been decided. They pray for him to do something whilst excusing his inaction by saying he doesn’t “always” answer prayers and whatever he does is the best thing which is what he was always going to do anyway.

    Hence, prayer is a useless tool for obtaining action from this supposed god and holding up his perceived interventions as “proof” is nonsense as his will wouldn’t have been swayed in either direction by prayer in the first place.

    Another example. I’ve received email asking people to pray for two different families following recent deaths. Why?

    Ignoring the fact that one of the deceased was a practicing Buddhist (see DPK’s comment on arrogance and presumption), how exactly does that help as opposed to, say, being a good neighbor? And what do Christians pray for in that case anyway?

  72. on 23 Oct 2012 at 10:59 pm 72.A said …

    Can you not follow logic? Here it is, in the atheist world

    1. Prayers were offered to God.
    2. God didn’t answer in the way atheist expected
    3. Therefore god does not exist.
    (Notice the parents make no claim God does not exist)

    Truth does that not make perfect nonsense? And to follow up Lindsay’s point, you must blame God for the actions of the evil man. Why you may ask? Because again God did not act the way Lindsay thinks He should have.

    Now the funniest point is this. Dawkins writes in his book there are no moral absolutes. Atheists can NEVER EVER (lol) produce any when pressed. However, like Lindsay Dawkins goes on to judge actions with moral absolutes. The ultimate hypocrisy and stupidity is the atheist worldview.

  73. on 23 Oct 2012 at 11:40 pm 73.Anonymous said …

    Please explain exactly what answer an atheist would expect from a god that they don’t believe in. Be specific.

  74. on 23 Oct 2012 at 11:58 pm 74.DPK said …

    No idiot.. Here is the logic you cannot follow:
    1. An unspeakable act of evil befalls an innocent little girl.. Either according to the fact that sometimes bad things happen in the world, or according to god’s specific plan for the little girl.. Depending on your belief system.
    2. People who believe in a loving merciful god, pray fervently that the girl will be found, unharmed, and reunited with her family. They believe that god listens to their prayers, and will act accordingly. No one, anywhere, prays to god the the girl be killed (for her bicycle, turns out) and her body stuffed into a dumpster, like so much garbage.
    3. The family is reassured that god listens to prayers, and will protect her. After all, he routinely helps people score touchdowns, find car keys, and removes horrendous pimples just in time for the homecoming dance. He also saves people from car wrecks, keeps them off of doomed aircraft, and in one case, even gave a woman a specific brain abnormality at birth specifically so she could, 21 years later, survive a gunshot wound to the head.
    4. God either does not answer the prayers in the way ANYONE (not just atheists) expected, or, god’s “answer” is actually indistinguishable from the result one would logically expect if there were, in fact, no god answering prayers at all. That is to say, sometimes you get what you pray for, sometimes you don’t, and sometimes you get something completely different. The reason is that these three outcomes cover EVERY possible outcome.
    5. Rational people conclude, logically, that either god does not, in fact answer prayers, or, more simply, god does not exist.
    6. Irrational people, like yourself, rationalize and make excuses for god, and attempt to convince others that even though god’s actions are indistinguishable from random chance, god actually is doing what he knows is best. They also rationalize that god has already planned what will happen, knows what is best, but still listens to prayers and can be convinced to change his mind IF you pray fervently enough… Except he never does, because that would mean you are smarter than god.

  75. on 24 Oct 2012 at 12:36 am 75.A said …

    DPK, for once thank you for being correct. Let me reissue the atheist logic. I did have to remove your emotional appeal since this is a case of atheist logic.

    1. Prayers were offered to God.
    2. God didn’t answer in the way atheists expected
    3. Atheists don’t understand God
    4. Therefore god does not exist.

    Yes, this still makes complete nonsense.

  76. on 24 Oct 2012 at 12:47 am 76.alex said …

    “…god has already planned what will happen, knows what is best, but still listens to prayers and can be convinced to change his mind IF you pray fervently enough”

    irreconcilable. idiot theists can’t get this.

    during bad times, sad, desperate, lonely people are susceptible to prayers. give us your money and we will pray for your missing daughter. give me that perverted hug and we will pray together. i’m sure he’s in a better place, so let’s hold hands and pray. she was a good woman and she’s waiting for you in heaven, let’s all pray and give to the church.

    fucken theists need to go to therapy. who’s despondent?

  77. on 24 Oct 2012 at 12:55 am 77.alex said …

    1000 unique, random prayers were offered to each bullshit god, allah, jesus, odin.

    guess what happened?

  78. on 24 Oct 2012 at 12:59 am 78.alex said …

    jesus determined the results of the 1000 prayers.
    allah determined the results of the 1000 prayers.
    odin determined the results of the 1000 prayers.

    everyone go home, it’s a tie. what b.s.

  79. on 24 Oct 2012 at 1:48 am 79.Lou(DFW) said …

    73.ASS incorrectly said because he must lie about atheists in order to make an argument …

    “1. Prayers were offered to God.
    2. God didn’t answer in the way atheists expected
    3. Atheists don’t understand God
    4. Therefore god does not exist.”

    But first, I must issue the usual disclaimer before refuting another of ASS’ stupid comments – he NEVER, EVER provides any evidence for his imaginary god, but only lies and diversions because he doesn’t have any evidence.

    This is what DPK actually wrote:

    “Rational people conclude.. that either god does not..answer prayers, or… [in the absence of any evidence] god does not exist.”

    But, ASS’ claims that atheists think that god doesn’t exist because he doesn’t answer prayers (in the way atheists expected). Regardless of what ASS wrote, it is an indisputable fact that the prayers to god for the girl’s life were NOT answered – the girl is dead, period. That is, unless ASS wants to claim that god specifically spoke to him and said “NO! I will not save the girl.”

    Ass, you’re such an idiot – you have it backwards. Prayers aren’t answered because god is imaginary!

    ASS, let’s see if you can follow:

    1. There is no evidence that god exists – god is imaginary.
    2. Prayers cannot be answered by an imaginary god.

    Allow me to summarize because of your obvious lack of intellect:

    Unanswered prayers are not a reason to disbelieve in god. Prayers are unanswered because god is imaginary.

  80. on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:03 am 80.The messenger said …

    46.DPK for your information, Christ died on the cross and suffered unbelievable pain just so we could go to heaven. Do you think that Christ has an easy job? He has the hardest job in the universe, he puts up with all the crap that mankind causes to it’s self and he still forgives us. After all of the things he has done for us, you still are not grateful. I think that God is really too patient and forgiving, he should send you to hell yet he chose to forgive you. Be grateful for Christ’s mercy.

  81. on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:05 am 81.The messenger said …

    79.Lou(DFW) Jesus answers all prayers, he may give you what you prayed for, or he will give you something that you need more.

  82. on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:07 am 82.The messenger said …

    79.Lou(DFW) God is not imaginary. I have seen him with my own eyes.

    If you would have some faith in him for once in your life, perhaps he will appear to you as well.

  83. on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:26 am 83.Lou(DFW) said …

    81.The messenger said …

    “Jesus answers all prayers, he may give you what you prayed for, or he will give you something that you need more.”

    I have a strong hunch that you need a young girl’s dead body more than I need one.

  84. on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:59 am 84.The messenger said …

    83.Lou(DFW) do you think that life is suppose to be easy?
    Well it is not easy.

    Life is a test from God and the only way to pass it is by living each day of your life with the virtues that God taught us all. We must overcome the pain and struggles of life and try to treat everyone around you with love, respect, forgiveness, kindness, and compassion. We must also follow the Ten Commandments.

  85. on 24 Oct 2012 at 3:07 am 85.The messenger said …

    on 24 Oct 2012 at 2:03 am 80.The messenger said …
    46.DPK for your information, Christ died on the cross and suffered unbelievable pain just so we could go to heaven. Do you think that Christ has an easy job? He has the hardest job in the universe, he puts up with all the crap that mankind causes to it’s self and he still forgives us. After all of the things he has done for us, you still are not grateful. I think that God is really too patient and forgiving, he could have sent you to hell, instead he chose to forgive you. Be grateful for Christ’s mercy.

  86. on 24 Oct 2012 at 7:42 am 86.Severin said …

    45 Curmudgeon
    “So according to Thomas, our founders were ignorant and crushed the civil rights of homosexuals from the very founding of our nation.”

    Your founders were slave holders.

    And, yes, they were ignorant compared to the level of knowledge of today.
    I am not trying to diminish their contribution to history, and to (slow, very slow) development of democracy, because they were a little bit above average state of mind of their time but do you think that everything done by them was for eternity?
    Nothing changes? Nothing SHOULD change?

    No, not in YOUR mind, as can I see.

  87. on 24 Oct 2012 at 7:50 am 87.Severin said …

    #56
    “The founders created the greatest county on Earth, America.
    They created a country based on freedom and the rights of Americans.”

    … on the price of extermination of almost the whole original population of the continent.

    Some freedom!

  88. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:07 am 88.Severin said …

    # 57
    “After all of the things he has done for us, you still are not grateful.”

    WHAT (WHAT?, WHAT?, WHAT?) has Jesus done for us?

    OK, he died on the cross, we can accept that for the sake of debate.
    If he died “for us”, then something must have been CHANGED in lives of humans after he died.

    WHAT WAS IT that changed?
    What were the CONSEQUENCES of his death?
    WHAT HAPPENED with human race after he died?
    HOW did his death influence the lives of human race?

    More specifically, what changed in lives of people in China, India, Australia, Americas, after Jesus died?

  89. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:16 am 89.Severin said …

    65 LL
    “We all die but not always of old age.”

    That exactly happened 5000 years ago in ancient Egypt, 3000 years ago in China, 25000 years ago in Australia, 800 years ago in what is today Canada, …

    What gods “ruled” such events then and there?

  90. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:38 am 90.Severin said …

    72 A
    “1. Prayers were offered to God.
    2. God didn’t answer in the way atheist expected
    3. Therefore god does not exist.”

    Why are you lying?
    Where and when did an atheist use such a “logic”?

    From your #1 and #2 I would never conclude a god does not exists.
    All I can conclude is: if there is a god, it is irrational to expect anything from him (her? it?). It ACTS the same way as if there was no god at all!
    Whether or not such a god exists is IRRELEVANT.

    Ancient gods answered prayers exactly the same “yes” – “no” – “wait” way you attribute to YOUR god.
    Ra sometimes gave a good crop after people prayed for good crop, sometimes not, and sometimes he “delayed” his “action”.

    WHO CARES whether or not Ra was real, if the results of people’s prayers were as random as the results of prayers to YOUR god?
    WHO CARES whether or not your god is real, if the results of prayers to him (her?) are as random as the results of prayers to Ra (Allah, …)?

    We do not CONCLUDE there is no god.
    We just DO NOT BELIEVE there is one (or more of them), because we have no evidences to accept his existence.

  91. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:41 am 91.Severin said …

    In my comment #88, sentence:
    “It ACTS the same way …”, “It” stands for “god”.

  92. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:46 am 92.Severin said …

    75 A
    “3. Atheists don’t understand God”

    You do?
    Please elaborate!

  93. on 24 Oct 2012 at 3:30 pm 93.DPK said …

    Well, “A” can continue to believe in a god who’s influence in the world is exactly the same as random chance, who’s answer to the earnest prayers of a terrified family and a whole community of faithful worshipers is a 12 year old’s dead body stuffed in a recycling dumpster, and who causes women to be raped and impregnated so that they can conceive a child according to his plan….

    Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock said Tuesday that pregnancy that results from rape can be “something that God intended to happen.”

    Yeah… right.
    I guess he’s just too busy helping NFL players score touchdowns, or whatever.

  94. on 24 Oct 2012 at 4:49 pm 94.JALindsay said …

    93.DPK said …

    ”Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock said Tuesday that pregnancy that results from rape can be ‘something that God intended to happen.’”

    This is absolutely insane. Someone today said to me “I think we can all see that the country is on a path it shouldn’t be on.” In the sense I think he meant it, I don’t necessarily degree, but in the sense that the country is on a path where fools like Richard Mourdock can say things like that and not pay for it by losing their political careers (and going on real “apology tours”) is something I would agree with.

    Theists that support men like Mourdock and the utterly asinine (and embarrassing!) statements they make, based in their religious delusion, are doing vastly more damage to the “path this country” is on than almost any number of the things they whine about (many of which are boons to our society, not something to try to undo). Every time idiots like him are able to say this kind of tripe and get resounding support from a rabble of angry and deluded fools, sometimes resulting in their elections to public or even high offices, these idiotic statements are legitimized. This is unacceptable and dangerous.

    Little do they realize how much the endorsement and support of statements like Mourdock’s move us toward being an ass-backward failure of a theocracy like most of the countries they hate (also because of their exclusionist, hate-mongering religious beliefs).

    In that, then, they’re right: the country is on the wrong path, but they’re dead wrong as to which path they’re talking about or why the path is wrong.

  95. on 24 Oct 2012 at 4:50 pm 95.JALindsay said …

    Correction: I don’t necessarily *agree* not “degree.”

  96. on 24 Oct 2012 at 8:16 pm 96.Anonymous said …

    When you are left with either admitting that your god is imaginary or a sadistic maniac, there’s no end to the rationalizations that the believer will trot out in order to maintain their delusional beliefs.

    William Lane Craig on the genocide of the Canaanite children:

    “Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation.”

    So, genocide, is a loving, caring, act if you are bible-god. No metaphors here, just divine command theory which makes everything god does, good. So sad.

  97. on 24 Oct 2012 at 9:42 pm 97.The messenger said …

    46.DPK for your information, Christ died on the cross and suffered unbelievable pain just so we could go to heaven. Do you think that Christ has an easy job? He has the hardest job in the universe, he puts up with all the crap that mankind causes to it’s self and he still forgives us. After all of the things he has done for us, you still are not grateful. I think that God is really too patient and forgiving, he could have sent you to hell, instead he chose to forgive you. Be grateful for Christ’s mercy.

  98. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:21 am 98.Severin said …

    Messenger,
    You are parroting about how Christ died for us so we could go to heaven, but you never ever explained WHAT EXACTLY CHANGED IN THIS WORLD after Jesus died.

    HOW did Jesus’ death enable us to go to heaven?
    Did people go to heaven BEFORE Jesus died, or not?

    HOW did world change after Jesus’ death?

    WHAT HAPPENED with the world when Jesus died?
    Did it become a better world? Did people stop doing bad deeds? Crime stopped? No more raping, murdering, robbing, …

    B.t.w., thousands of people tortured and burned alive IN THE NAME of Christ, suffered much more “unbelievable pains” than Christ himself, who was hanging on the cross for a few hours.

  99. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:32 am 99.Severin said …

    Messenger,
    For YOUR information, if Jesus’ death had any purpose, it did not reflect but to few hundred thousand people.

    There were about 5 hundred million people on earth at that time.
    Did Jesus “sacrifice” himself for hundreds of millions of people in China, India, Indonesia, Australia, Americas, …?
    Obviously NOT!
    Poor people had absolutely NO CHANCE to know anything about his “sacrifice”!
    HOW did Jesus expect all those people to be “saved” if he did NOTHING to inform them.

    An “all loving god” who cared for a few thousand but forgot hundreds of millions? Those other people (mentioned above) were NOT his “children”, or WHAT?
    Or, an “almighty” god who was UNABLE to inform millions about himself and his “mission” on earth?

    Did all those people go to hell just because Jesus was either unable or did not WANT to inform them about possibility to be “saved”?

    Clumsy, if not criminal negligence!

  100. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:39 am 100.Severin said …

    I mean, was it SO difficult for almighty and all loving god Jesus to do something to inform, for example, American Indians about himself, and to give them OPPORTUNITY to do something about themselves, instead to let them wait some 1500 years to learn Christianity in the much harder way?

    No, he did NOTHING! He obviously did not CARE for them!

    A racist god?

  101. on 26 Oct 2012 at 12:02 am 101.The messenger said …

    100.Severin Jesus did inform the native Americans of himself.

    There were some Hebrews in North America at the time.

  102. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:04 am 102.The messenger said …

    99.Severin Jesus died for all of our sins, not just for the people from that time period, but for all time periods.

    Jesus died on the cross and proved that all of mankind’s sins can be forgiven.

    He forgives you for your sins as well.

  103. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:07 am 103.The messenger said …

    The answer to your question is yes, Jesus did die for all of those people.

    Jesus died on the cross to prove once and for all that mankind’s sins can be forgiven.

  104. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:10 am 104.The messenger said …

    Mankind’s spirits stayed on earth after death.
    They only started to go to heaven after Jesus died.

  105. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:13 am 105.The messenger said …

    99.Severin you stated that poor people could nog be informed about God.

    You are wrong in so many ways. All people can learn about God if they go to church, rich or poor it does not matter, you can go to church either way.

  106. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:16 am 106.The messenger said …

    99.Severin when Jesus says the word saved, he means saved from sins, if you are saved from sin then you will go to heaven.

  107. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:19 am 107.The messenger said …

    99.Severin Jesus loves and cares for all people.
    You shouldn’t blame Jesus for the humans treating other humans badly.

    That is not his fault.

  108. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:22 am 108.The messenger said …

    When Jesus died on the cross, he wiped all of the sins off the Earth and he opened the gates of heaven to mankind.

  109. on 26 Oct 2012 at 6:25 am 109.Severin said …

    I wonder what would happen if a large group of people in the USA founded a new religion, or a denomination of an existing one, and claimed their god permits abortion and tolerates gays.

    Would those morons call them atheists?

  110. on 26 Oct 2012 at 12:00 pm 110.Biff said …

    If they tolerate a god then they could not be atheists. Atheists want everyone to believe like them. They are intolerant.

    The problem being, there are too many versions of atheism to decide from and not to mention it is a very illogical belief system.

  111. on 26 Oct 2012 at 1:37 pm 111.Anti-Theist said …

    …..
    Buy a dictionary.

  112. on 26 Oct 2012 at 3:14 pm 112.Lou(DFW) said …

    110.Biff biffed …

    “Atheists want everyone to believe like them. They are intolerant.”

    LOL!!!!!!! But xtians don’t! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

    No, what atheists want is for theists to keep their superstitious beliefs to themselves and stay in their hidey-holes as Hor’s numerous sock-puppets do when they are shot down.

    “The problem being, there are too many versions of atheism to decide from…”

    Biff just demonstrated his utter stupidity. Just as there are not “too many versions” of not believing in Santa Claus, there are not “too many versions” of not believing in his imaginary god.

    “…and not to mention it is a very illogical belief system.”

    And not to mention that Biff is too stupid to understand that, by definition, not believing in something cannot be a “belief system” – whatever that is.

  113. on 26 Oct 2012 at 3:21 pm 113.DPK said …

    110.Biff said …
    “… typical lies and stupidity… nothing new from Biff….”

    Biffer, the absolutely worst thing you can do to promote your agenda is to make up lies and false claims about the other side in order to try and validate your position. It makes you look desperate and foolish. You’d do better to keep your mouth shut rather than embarrass yourself.
    “versions of atheism” hahahahahahaha
    Tell us Biff, how many “versions” of atheism are there… and what do you think distinguishes them from one another? By comparison, how many “versions” of not believing in garden gnomes do you think there actually are? 50, 100, 1? This should be rich….

  114. on 26 Oct 2012 at 4:14 pm 114.Lou(DFW) said …

    110.Biff biffed …

    “The problem being, there are too many versions of atheism to decide from and not to mention it is a very illogical belief system.”

    Biffer, how many versions of theism (religion) are there? Which one is logical?

  115. on 26 Oct 2012 at 9:51 pm 115.Severin said …

    101 messenger
    “100.Severin Jesus did inform the native Americans of himself.
    There were some Hebrews in North America at the time.”

    Hebrews in Americas in the 1st century?
    Are you nuts?
    Or, are you a Mormon (which is the same?)

    #105
    “Severin you stated that poor people could not be informed about God.
    You are wrong in so many ways. All people can learn about God if they go to church, rich or poor it does not matter, you can go to church either way.”

    Yes: American Indians, Aborigines, people from Java, Hawaii, New Guinea, China, Africa, Tasmania, Eskimos, Vikings, … , they ALL could go to church at the beginning of 1st century, if they only wanted.

    Are you aware how ridiculous you are?

    I am done with you.
    I can’t imagine in my worst nightmare that somebody can be as stupid as you are.

    Somebody told me nicely: don’t feed the troll!

  116. on 27 Oct 2012 at 1:15 am 116.The messenger said …

    115.Severin I am a Catholic.

    I never said the exact time when the Hebrews where in North America, I only said that they were there before any European settlers arrived.

    I never said anything about the 1st century, you brought up the first century, not me.

    Why are you such a stupid person.

  117. on 27 Oct 2012 at 1:23 am 117.The messenger said …

    All people can become informed about God, if they choose to go to church.

    Severin you have failed to say anything that proves my statement listed above is false, instead of giving any information to support your argument you simpley insulted my comment and did nothing else.

    I pitty you for your extreme stupidity.

  118. on 27 Oct 2012 at 1:54 pm 118.MrQ said …

    the Hebrews where in North America, I only said that they were there before any European settlers arrived.

    What have you got to back this claim? Anyone can make shit up.

  119. on 27 Oct 2012 at 4:28 pm 119.Lou(DFW) said …

    114.Lou(DFW) said …

    Biffer, how many versions of theism (religion) are there? Which one is logical?

    113.DPK said …

    By comparison, how many “versions” of not believing in garden gnomes do you think there actually are? 50, 100, 1? This should be rich….

    It should be, but the coward won’t answer.

  120. on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:10 pm 120.Anonymous said …

    “What have you got to back this claim? Anyone can make shit up.”

    Prediction time! It’s another one of those cut and paste jobs where he totally ignores all the indications that this “evidence” is faked.

  121. on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:56 pm 121.The messenger said …

    118.MrQ, 119.Lou(DFW), Anonymous, I included in my comment that if you want to see the proof that Hebrews were in North America before the settlers arrived all you have to do is google it and this web site will pop up.

    http://thefamily.com/tag/ancient-hebrew/

    Is that Enouph proof for all of you.

  122. on 27 Oct 2012 at 7:58 pm 122.Severin said …

    Messenger,
    If there were no churches in Americas before end of 15. century, which is 1500 years after Christ, no churches in Australia before beginning of 18. century (1700 years after Christ), HOW, the hell, could those people know anything about Christ?
    Oh, yes, maybe there were some Jews in Australia too, say in 15th century (much too late!), to teach Aborigines about Christ!?
    Not to speak about China, Indonesia, Mongolia, Siberia, Scandinavia, Africa, …, when did first Christian churches appear there? 500, 800, 1000 years after Jesus died!
    Your “savior” ether forgot or neglected those people for centuries. In fact, some of them were forgotten for 1.5 millennium or more!

    Obviously, your Christ did NOT do anything to save those people! Some 500 million people x many generations = billions of people who HAD NO OPPORTUNITY to learn about Christ and to be “saved”, because your Jesus FORGOT, or did not WANT to inform them about himself and his teaching, to give them at least the OPPORTUNITY to make their choice.
    THEY HAD NO ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE! NO OPPORTUNITY!
    WHAT churches could they have found? Where?
    Oh, yes, I forgot phones and Internet! Maybe they could have used planes to reach Jesus?

    You must be really VERY stupid if you deny the simple FACT:
    Billions of people simply had no opportunity to be “saved”, because your Christ forgot them, or did not WANT to take care of them.
    He did NOTHING for them!

    Some “savior”!

  123. on 27 Oct 2012 at 8:14 pm 123.DPK said …

    But Severin… according to the eyewitness testimony (on the other thread) from the brain surgeon who went to heaven. it doesn’t matter if you’ve never heard of Jesus… there is no hell, only heaven, and everyone gets in… “there is nothing to fear, and there is nothing you can do wrong….”

    Funny that none of the theists who were so delighted to hear about the reality of heaven and how you get to ride around on magic butterflies and talk to angels and all, have commented on that…. hahaha. I guess maybe not they think the guy is just pandering to sell book too. But they won’t admit to it. So, they just say nothing rather be honest about it. They are all so full of shit…………

  124. on 27 Oct 2012 at 8:59 pm 124.Anonymous said …

    121 – The troll said: ” I included in my comment that if you want to see the proof that Hebrews were in North America before the settlers arrived all you have to do is google it and this web site will pop up.”

    I don’t see that comment but not that anyone cares, it’s just random shit on the internet.

    By the way, has anyone else noticed how messenger’s presentation has shifted from the pretend peace and love line to general insults, prove him wrong, and random web pages being “proof” just like our other trolls do too?

    Also, look at post #43 – something there is out of place compared to his other posts. In #56 he also shifts gears.

    Finally, picking up on DPK’s observation. This troll is using stuff that would indicate he’s a Mormon yet he claims to be a Catholic. He’s just making it up as he goes along.

  125. on 27 Oct 2012 at 9:29 pm 125.Daexion said …

    To whomever said marriage has it’s roots in religion.

    History lesson: marriage was actually about the passing of property to ones offspring, not about religion. Religions eventually got it’s hooks in it, but it actually originated from a secular need for ownership of property and inheritance.

  126. on 27 Oct 2012 at 9:33 pm 126.Anonymous said …

    123.DPK. they only care that someone said heaven is real. After that they switch their brains off and don’t let details interfere with their confirmation bias.

    You could probably make a claim of an NDE (I’m still not getting how being nearly dead is proof of life after death, but whatever) with heaven being a worm-hole to a dimension where everyone turns into a squirrel and some Christians would still trumpet – See, proof that heaven is real!

    Severin, Christopher Hitchens makes an excellent comment along the lines you are presenting:

    http://youtu.be/Pkp_v4pKwK8

  127. on 28 Oct 2012 at 1:07 am 127.The messenger said …

    122.Severin God did not forget the people in Australia, the people of Australia durring that time period learned about God after they died.

    Later God decided that it was time for them to learn about his teachings during their life on Earth, so he allowed explorers to come there and teach the natives of Australia God’s teachings.

  128. on 28 Oct 2012 at 1:10 am 128.The messenger said …

    124.Anonymous I do not insult people, I enlighten them with the truth.

  129. on 28 Oct 2012 at 1:13 am 129.The messenger said …

    124.Anonymous I never shift gears and I do not make things up.

    I only speak the truth.

  130. on 28 Oct 2012 at 10:47 am 130.Severin said …

    “122.Severin God did not forget the people in Australia, the people of Australia during that time period learned about God after they died.”

    Then what was wrong if god let all the people, all the time, learning about him after they died?
    What is the difference?
    If there IS difference, then god (Jesus) was either criminally negligent to billions, or he did it by purpose, or he was not able to do anything about it (in which case he was obviously NOT a god at all).

    If there is NO difference, Jesus died for NOTHING; all the people, in all times, could die and learn about god THEN.

    Whatever the case, he DID die for nothing. You never explained HOW did his death change the world.
    HOW does the world before Christ’s death differ form the world after his death?
    Where is the catch?
    WHAT CHANGED after Jesus’ death in a way that someone could say: yes, now we have different world, a better one (less wars, less robbing, less raping, less killing, … WHAT?).

    Did good people go to heaven and bad people to hell, BEFORE Christ died?
    Yes or no?
    Did good people go to heaven and bad people to hell AFTER Jesus died?
    Yes or no?

    WHY did he die, specifically, if nothing changed after his death?
    Or, if something changed, WHAT EXACTLY was it?

  131. on 28 Oct 2012 at 11:13 am 131.Severin said …

    127 Messenger
    “Later God decided that it was time for them to learn about his teachings during their life on Earth, so he allowed explorers to come there and teach the natives of Australia God’s teachings.”

    Don’t say, later, that you did not say that GOD DECIDED to send “explorers” to come there and “teach” the natives about his teachings.
    Let’s repeat it: GOD sent “explorers” to tech people about himself.
    More specifically, he sent CHRISTIANS there!

    Results?!
    Discrimination, torturing, slavery, absolutely no rights for those poor people; “good Christians” considered those people “lower beings”, practically not human beings at all.

    Was THAT the way your god took care for his children? By sending them “good Christians” to exterminate them?
    Yes, it was!

    Well, THAT is YOUR god!
    Either he does nothing for his “children”, or he does something very clumsy, out of his control, OR, maybe he did it all deliberately?!
    Maybe he hated Indians, Aborigines, Black people, …

  132. on 28 Oct 2012 at 12:13 pm 132.alex said …

    sev, don’t

  133. on 28 Oct 2012 at 1:10 pm 133.Anonymous said …

    132+… feed the troll

  134. on 28 Oct 2012 at 3:49 pm 134.The messenger said …

    130.Severin I did not say that God sent those explorers to Australia, I said that he allowed them to travel their.

  135. on 28 Oct 2012 at 3:54 pm 135.The messenger said …

    on 28 Oct 2012 at 3:49 pm 134.The messenger said … Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    130.Severin I did not say that God sent those explorers to Australia, I said that he allowed them to travel there.

    Next time read my comments correctly before you comment.

  136. on 28 Oct 2012 at 4:57 pm 136.The messenger said …

    131.Severin God did not intend for those people to go into slavery, God does not control us, he only guides us.

  137. on 28 Oct 2012 at 6:54 pm 137.Doug said …

    Messenger

    There is no god. We are here only because the universe created itself or possibly seeded here by aliens many thousands of years ago. These truths are proven and evident. Nobody needs your Mormonism to explain us.

  138. on 28 Oct 2012 at 7:20 pm 138.The messenger said …

    137.Doug it is impossible for something to create itself, God made the universe, how can you not see that.

    I am a Catholic.

  139. on 28 Oct 2012 at 7:54 pm 139.Doug said …

    Messenger

    Science has uncovered a great deal evidence pointing to a universe that created itself. If this turns out not to be the case it is likely aliens planted the seeds. No need for divine explanations.

  140. on 28 Oct 2012 at 8:46 pm 140.MrQ said …

    The mess (#136) claims:

    God does not control us, he only guides us.

    Are you implying that god does NOT know the future? If god sees and knows all, then god knows the outcomes of ALL our individual and collective actions. There is a predetermination to everything, an outcome only apparent to god. Meaning that god would “control” us because our life trajectories are ONLY capable of following one inescapable path as known and planned out in advance by god.

    If, however, god does NOT know the future, then god is not, of course, all-seeing. In that scenario god could help to guide our paths, answer our prayers, and gently nudge us in the right direction.

    God did not intend for those people to go into slavery

    Are you suggesting that god knew but was powerless to stop slavery? What does your bible say about keeping slaves?

    From your answer in #121, anyone can make shit up. Did you know that there are flat earthers out there? They have a really slick website. Does that make it fact that the Earth is flat?
    http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

  141. on 28 Oct 2012 at 10:58 pm 141.Severin said …

    135 Messenger
    “I did not say that God sent those explorers to Australia, I said that he allowed them to travel there.”
    Summary:
    In the 1st century b.c. some 500 million people lived on earth.
    According to Bible, no doubt that all of them were god’s children, because all of them were successors of A+E, who were created by god himself.
    God was unsatisfied with those people, and sent Jesus to die, to „save“ those children of him from going to hell.
    Jesus died, but extremely small group of people was informed about his death and the significance of his „mission“.
    Those who have heard about the event continued to live EXACTLY as they used to live before Jesus’ death: some of them were good, did not „sin“, and went to heaven, and other were bad, did not give a shit for Jesus and his death, and went to hell.
    OK, they were informed, they had opportunity to make the right choice, and if some of them went to hell, they deserved it.
    Those who never heard for Jesus, for his death and his mission (Americas, Australia, …), were left to live their lives as they did before, in most cases for centuries or even millenniums.

    We can see that NOTHING changed on this earth after Jesus „sacrificed“ himself.
    EVERYTHING continued to „flow“ as it „flew“ before he died!

    WHY DID THAT IDIOT DIE?
    Or, maybe he did not.

  142. on 28 Oct 2012 at 11:03 pm 142.Severin said …

    Oops, I forgot:
    Jesus allowed the people he forgot (did not want?) to inform about himself and his sacrifice to „know him“ after THEIR death.
    They continued to live and to die, generation after generation, billions of people, for centuries and millenniums.
    It must be that Jesus/god after some 500 – 1700 years understood the problem I noticed instantly:
    HOW will god decide whom of those people to send to heaven, and whom will he send to hell?
    They did NOT live according to god’s laws! They did NOT follow his commandments, they did NOT worship him, they KNEW NOTHING ABOUT HIM!
    They used to worship their own gods, alas!

    Then god ALLOWED some „explorers“ to go to those previously uninformed people to inform them about god and his laws.
    We all know how they „taught“!

    Now we know that god ALLOWED IT.

  143. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:00 am 143.The messenger said …

    139.Doug I have actually seen God and talked to him, I know how that sounds, but I promise on my life that I am telling the truth.

    There have also been others who God has spoken too.
    Here are some examples,

    Heaven Is for Real

    Heaven Is for Real cover book.
    Heaven is for Real: A Little Boy’s Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back is a 2010 New York Times best-selling Christian book written by Todd Burpo and Lynn Vincent. It was published by Thomas Nelson Publishers. The book documents a near death experience by Burpo’s then-four year old son, Colton, after which he began saying he had visited Heaven. By April 2012 over one million ebooks had been sold.[1]

    HideSummary

    Todd Burpo, a Christian pastor, says that during the months after emergency surgery, Colton began describing events and people that seemed impossible for him to have seen or met. Examples include his miscarried sister, who no one had told him about, and his great grandfather who died 30 years before Colton was born.[2] Colton also made other extra-biblical claims that he had personally sat in Jesus’ lap, while the angels sang songs to him,[3][4][5] as, for example, that he saw the Virgin Mary standing beside Jesus in Heaven.[6] Within three weeks of its November 2010 release, the book debuted at #3 on the New York Times bestseller list. By January 2011, there were 200,000 copies in print, and the book hit #1 on the New York Times list.[7]

    Close this section
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    ^ [www.thomasnelsoncorporate.com/2012/04/heaven-is-for-real-best-seller-reaches-one-million-e-books-sold/ Heaven is for real best seller reaches one million ebooks sold]
    ^ http://wordswithmeaning.org/2011/03/the-boy-who-allegedly-went-to-heaven-and-returned.html
    ^ “The angels sang to Colton”. The North Platte Telegraph. January 13, 2011. Retrieved January 14, 2011.
    ^ http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#40888341
    ^ http://www.martino.tv/videobeta/fda1199b-eeb5-4ac4-a942-0e2ba4a07504/News/Heaven-Is-Real
    ^ Winnipeg Free Press: Todd is even able to report to Catholic friends that Colton “saw Mary kneeling before the throne of God and at other times standing beside Jesus.”
    ^ “Paperback Nonfiction”. New York Times.
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    23 Minutes in Hell

    This article is an orphan, as no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; suggestions may be available. (December 2010)
    23 Minutes in Hell is a 2006 Christian book written by Bill Wiese and published by Charisma House.[1] The book is claimed to be non-fiction and recounts the author’s alleged 23-minute-long experience in Hell in 1998.[1] The book and the underlying story within it are the topic of a series of speaking tours given by Wiese, predominantly to churches and other Christian organizations.[1]

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  144. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:08 am 144.The messenger said …

    HideDescription

    Wiese states that he had been a Christian since 1970, but had never studied hell before his experience[2] on the night of November 23, 1998.[3] According to the book, Wiese, then a real estate broker,[2][4] found himself in a cell approximately 15 feet (4.6 m) high and 10 feet (3.0 m) by 15 feet (4.6 m) in area, where there were two foul-smelling beasts, personifications of evil and terror, who spoke in a blasphemous language.[3] Wiese says that the creatures had strength approximately one thousand times greater than a man’s strength.[3] According to Wiese, the beasts threw him against the stone wall, breaking his bones, and then ripped his flesh.[4]

    Wiese states that he nevertheless managed to crawl out of his cell, where he heard the screams of the billions of damned people in hell.[4] He states that he then encountered Jesus, who told him to tell other people that hell is real.[3] Wiese states that his experience ended with him waking on the floor of his living room, screaming in horror.[3]

    Close this section

    Miracle of the Sun

    Location of Fátima, Portugal
    The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event on 13 October 1917 in which 30,000 to 100,000 people, who were gathered near Fátima, Portugal, claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity.

    According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes.[1] The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.[2]

    The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[3]

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    Doug, I respect your belief in aliens, but I hope that you look at these comments and try to see my side of this debate.

  145. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:18 am 145.The messenger said …

    140.MrQ God knows everything, but that does not mean that he forces us to do anything, he wants us to chose to do the right thing on our own, life is a test, no one said that it would be easy.

  146. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:25 am 146.The messenger said …

    142.Severin here is a quote from one of you previous comments

    “Don’t say, later, that you did not say that GOD DECIDED to send “explorers” to come there and “teach” the natives about his teachings.
    Let’s repeat it: GOD sent “explorers” to tech people about himself.
    More specifically, he sent CHRISTIANS there!”

    As you can see, with in this comment is a sentence that states God sent the explores there, and yet you claimed to have not said that. Interesting, not only are you faithless but your also a liar.

    I pity you.

  147. on 29 Oct 2012 at 4:07 am 147.The messenger said …

    142.Severin God allows kind, compassionate, loving, generous, hardworking, honorable people into heaven.

    God sends cruel, greedy, lustful, hateful, unkind people to hell until they pay off all of the sins that they committed during their life on Earth. After they have paid off their sins, they will get a second change to prove that they are good people, this chance in given in Purgatory.

  148. on 29 Oct 2012 at 4:14 am 148.The messenger said …

    140.MrQ God did could have stopped slavery from happening, but he did not because he knew that the only way that people would stop slavery in America once and for all is if they sopped it them selves.

    It was mankind’s job to stop slavery, God will not do every thing for us, we have to handle some of our problems on our own.

  149. on 29 Oct 2012 at 6:27 am 149.Severin said …

    146 Messenger,
    No need to lie!
    I never said that you said “sent” instead “allowed”.
    It was my mistake, which does not change facts I described at all.

  150. on 29 Oct 2012 at 7:11 am 150.Severin said …

    147 Messenger
    “God allows kind, compassionate, loving, generous, hardworking, honorable people into heaven.”

    I am a kind, compassionate, loving, generous, hardworking, honorable, AND cheerful, AND very responsible man.
    I do not know what hate is, I am unable to hate.
    I do not expect to go to “heaven” after I die, because I don’t believe there is “heaven”, but if there was a heaven, according to your explanation, I could be pretty positive I will finish there, maybe after a few thousand years of “purgatory”.
    (Apropos: WHY purgatory for people who had no opportunity to know anything about your god/Jesus? Is it some sort of god’s whimsy: I forgot them, they lived nice and honest lives, BUT I will put them in purgatory anyway?).

    I am now, after your explanation, absolutely sure that, IF there is heaven, many atheists, Muslims, Jews, Ra-ists, Zeus-ists and believers to zillions of other gods, will go to heaven (if there is heaven), because many and many of those people fit your definition.
    I personally know some 200 of them, or more (my late mother, for example, who was an atheist, but an exceptionally honest person, many of my friends, …)
    It is pretty obvious from your explanation that, if there is a heaven, people do NOT need to know your god and Jesus, they do NOT need to follow your god and to live according to his laws, to earn their place in heaven.
    What you just said (can’t wait wait for Xenons, Biffs, Bens, Lous, … to attack you!) is: morality DOES exist independently of religion(s). Morality DOES NOT origin in Christianity/Bible, and people CAN be highly moral without knowing anything about your god, Jesus, Bible and similar bullshits.
    That IS what you said, isn’t it?

    Oops!
    Why did Jesus “sacrifice” himself, if many people would have been “saved” anyway, whether or not they knew anything about Jesus, god, Christianity, Bible, … (and many people were NOT saved although they KNEW for Jesus ?
    Why do we need your god, or any god, to honorably (and cheerfully) live our lives the best way we can (as, for example, I do)?

    You have just denied anyone’s need for any god.

  151. on 29 Oct 2012 at 7:17 am 151.Severin said …

    THAT was my intention when I continued to “feed the troll”.
    He finally swallowed the hook, and HE, himself, told us that we don’t need gods to live nice, honorable, …, lives.

  152. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:08 pm 152.TheJesusFreak said …

    Ummmmm according to the Bible:
    Then he will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ Matthew 25:41

    And also:
    That whoever believed in Him shall not perish.
    John 3:16b

    You do not get into heaven on account of good works, you get into heaven based on whether you believed. See gospeljourney.com and its video.

  153. on 29 Oct 2012 at 2:10 pm 153.TheJesusFreak said …

    Messenger, I don’t know why you’ve Brel telling them, but it’s not meeting up with the Bible as I know it?

  154. on 29 Oct 2012 at 8:31 pm 154.The messenger said …

    153.TheJesusFreak I believe that God forgives all people eventually, even in Hell if they change their wrong ways and become good, God will forgive them and let them into heaven.

  155. on 26 Dec 2012 at 6:40 pm 155.Wouldubelieveit said …

    What if You were shown your life on a TV. And you could see were it is headed to would you change the course? Your life is what you say it is. It is as simple as that and FAITH is not a religion. Everybody has faith how they use it is up to them not God. Everybody is born with the same measure of it. How you use it again it is up to you. Some use it for worldly thing other use it for heavenly things, again it is your choice. That is how we are made you can deny it until your blue in the face, but the fact is you don’t have to FAITH in God but you will Put your FAITH in something. car keys, roof over your head, job you have, best friend, are the government, When you understand Faith you will understand life. By the way I’m a child of God and I know the hidden things since the foundation of the Earth

  156. on 26 Dec 2012 at 6:49 pm 156.Anonymous said …

    W, unless you have some actual, you know real, undisputed,evidence for the existence of any god, please just take your psychologically deranged ramblings and just fuck off.

  157. on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:02 pm 157.Wouldubelieveit said …

    When you have proof there is not God Keep your deranged ramblings to yourself. Evil things happening on the earth does not prove there is not a God it just proves there is EVIL on the EARTH.

  158. on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:18 pm 158.Anonymous said …

    W, help me out here.

    There are THOUSANDS of god to chose from. THOUSANDS.

    Which god should we worship? Zeus, Ra, Odin, Minerva, Neptune, Glooscap, Napi, Dhakhan, Ungud… There are so many.

    Which one is the right god and how do we know which ones are false gods?

    Perhaps we should worship The Creator god? Is that it?

    Is your message that we should bow down and serve the creator Tonacatecuhtli?

  159. on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:19 pm 159.alex said …

    157, lightning rods on church steeples? pascal variation? even you fuckers know the real score.

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