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Christianity &Islam Thomas on 11 Oct 2012 12:52 am

Proof of Heaven?

An American doctor named Eben Alexander (described as a “Harvard-educated neurosurgeon”) went into a coma, went to heaven and then came back to earth so that he can write a book and promote it. The title of his book is “Proof of Heaven”, as described here:

Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon

Dr. Alexander says:

I’ve spent decades as a neurosurgeon at some of the most prestigous medical institutions in our country. I know that many of my peers hold as I myself did to the theory that the brain, and in particular the cortex, generates consciousness and that we live in a universe devoid of any kind of emotion, much less the unconditional love that I now know God and the universe have toward us.

So the universe has unconditional love for us? This is the same universe that presents us with hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, monsoons, tornadoes, forest fires, etc.? What a strange sort of love. Billions of people arrive on this planet only to experience utter misery – where is the love?

And strangely, this misery is overcome by what? By human science and human engineering, not by the universe. Science and engineering give us food, housing and medical care that take away the misery to some degree, at least in the developed world. If it were not for human science and human engineering, we would still be living in dark, wet caves and dying at age 30, like any other animal.

Is one man’s hallucination a “proof of heaven”? Not to an intelligent person. Why was the doctor supplied with nothing in heaven that acts as actual proof? Why did he not return to earth with the cure for cancer or the ability to predict events in the future – something that would act as actual proof? Because his experience was a hallucination. The fact that he cannot accept this simple explanation, and is instead making money from a book about his hallucination, is telling.

167 Responses to “Proof of Heaven?”

  1. on 11 Oct 2012 at 2:45 pm 1.DPK said …

    One night, while I was recuperating from surgery and on some powerful pain medication, I had the experience of being in a room that looked much like the bridge of the starship, Enterprise. I was standing in the room, and the walls were glowing and pulsing colors… colors so intense, they were like nothing I had experienced before. I had the sensation that I could “feel” the colors rather than just see them. As I tried to move about, the room seems to distort and change shape… elongating and then contracting. I began to fall toward the floor… in slow motion. Just before I was about to face plant into the floor, I woke up… still in my chair in my family room. The experience was very real. I now know that the starship enterprise is indeed real, and I will have a book about my experience there available soon. Enter the code [hallucinate] for a special discount when ordering.

  2. on 11 Oct 2012 at 2:53 pm 2.BrianE said …

    Not to mention, of course, that he was a Christian before this incident happened, and then he goes on to experience his exact preconceived notion of what ‘heaven’ is. At this point, whether he actually experienced this or not is irrelevant – if he was a self-respecting scientist, he should dismiss his own results as tainted and biased. But clearly he has no self-respect, and instead chooses to prey on the gullible believer and sell them a book under the guise of ‘proof’, just because he’s a scientist.

    Believers should be thankful that there aren’t more ‘scientists’ with as little shame as this guy cashing in on their gullibility.

  3. on 11 Oct 2012 at 3:40 pm 3.JALindsay said …

    Indeed, Brian. I’ve considered the potential publicity that I could earn by letting my own book get a little more recognition and then deciding that I was all wrong, joining up with Christianity as a “true believer,” and then publishing the inevitable counter-book that will surely be written sooner or later by some Christian hack. The funny thing is that I would probably be able to have Christian publishers fighting over each other for the rights to that counter book and would make many, many times over what I can make trying to present sound arguments in a dispassionate way.

    Luckily for theists and atheists alike, I have way more integrity than that. Good without God.

  4. on 11 Oct 2012 at 4:45 pm 4.Lou(DFW) said …

    2.BrianE said …

    “Not to mention, of course, that he was a Christian before this incident happened, and then he goes on to experience his exact preconceived notion of what ‘heaven’ is.”

    Apparently, heaven is filled with “A woman (Caucasian?). She was young, and I remember what she looked like in complete detail. She had high cheekbones and deep-blue eyes. Golden brown tresses framed her lovely face.”

    One down, 71 to go. Oh, wait, wrong heaven.

  5. on 11 Oct 2012 at 5:02 pm 5.DPK said …

    “One down, 71 to go. Oh, wait, wrong heaven.”

    haha… I never got the muslim per-occupation with the virgins. Give me a dirty girl any day….
    (Unless they figure the virgins won’t actually know it’s supposed to last longer than 30 seconds… hahaha)

  6. on 11 Oct 2012 at 6:18 pm 6.Lou(DFW) said …

    5.DPK said …

    “haha… I never got the muslim per-occupation with the virgins. Give me a dirty girl any day….”

    Because they can’t handle a real woman. That’s why they must keep women oppressed.

  7. on 11 Oct 2012 at 8:15 pm 7.CastBound said …

    “Science and engineering give us food, housing and medical care that take away the misery to some degree”

    Actually the ground and animals give us food.

    The forest gives us housing

    The rainforest gives us medicine.

    Men only combines God’s resources to figure out how to use them.

    Atheist worship Harvard educated scientist until they come to a conclusion they don’t like they imply they are liars and opportunist. I guess since they are this way they assume all follow their lead.

  8. on 11 Oct 2012 at 9:13 pm 8.Lou(DFW) said …

    7.CastBound said … nothing but rambling theist b.s., but he never provides any evidence for his imaginary god.

  9. on 12 Oct 2012 at 12:05 am 9.DPK said …

    Upon further reflection, I am now scientifically convinced that the glowing walls and spacial distortons I experienced where the result of the space time warp effect one would expect when traveling faster than light inside a warp field. What other explanation could there possibly be? None.
    So, not only does the starship Enterprise actually exist, faster than light travel is not only possible, it is absolutely real.
    I am taking pre-orders for the book now….

  10. on 12 Oct 2012 at 12:24 am 10.Xenon said …

    “Atheist worship Harvard educated scientist until they come to a conclusion they don’t like they imply they are liars and opportunist.”

    The don’t believe in science. They don’t know the purpose of science. What they support is certain scientist. They practice Scientism. Scientist that will support their atheist worldview. In this manner, they insulate themselves from reality.

    Good article in Scientific American about this very topic.
    http://www.michaelshermer.com/2002/06/shamans-of-scientism/

  11. on 12 Oct 2012 at 2:20 am 11.The messenger said …

    When he says universe, he means everything that happens in the universe happens for good reason. Every thing that happens to us in the universe is a test from God. When God puts problems in out path he wants us to overcome them and help others to overcome the struggles as well.

  12. on 12 Oct 2012 at 2:42 am 12.Lou(DFW) said …

    10.Xenon-sequitur (aka Castbound 7.) said in his usual non-sequitur way…

    “Atheist worship Harvard educated scientist until they come to a conclusion they don’t like they imply they are liars and opportunist.”

    1.Atheist worship… is a the same old theist tactic here of lying about atheists.

    2.Harvard educated scientist – he isn’t a scientist. This a straw-man created by theists.

    3. The rest of the comments about science and scientism are 100% irrelevant to the fact that theists don’t have any evidence for their imaginary god, for heaven, or for Eben Alexander’s alleged experience.

    4.Michael Shermer is an atheist.

    Jeff Wells said, as if directly responding to Xenon-sequitur:

    The term ‘scientism’ has an inflexible sound to it, as if it were some monolithic, lock-step set of core beliefs which must be adhered to. I’ve heard it used effectively and often in a disparaging sense, by newagers and other superstitious riffraff, as a cheap way to demonize their opposition [lying about atheists](invariably with the help of modern technology, of course), and this is worrisome.

  13. on 12 Oct 2012 at 3:20 am 13.JALindsay said …

    He didn’t even use the term scientism right, confusing it with cherry picking. He did remember to inappropriately capitalize it, though.

  14. on 12 Oct 2012 at 3:30 am 14.The messenger said …

    13.Lou(DFW) on 12 Oct 2012 10.Xenon was not talking about Mr. Alexander in that sentence, he was talking about other Harvard graduates who are scientists.

  15. on 12 Oct 2012 at 3:34 am 15.The messenger said …

    7.CastBound I agree with you.

  16. on 12 Oct 2012 at 1:06 pm 16.A said …

    “4.Michael Shermer is an atheist.:

    Does that mean Lou will actually read the article?

    Nah, he doesn’t understand all that science “stuff”. Shermer is absolutely spot on. Atheist will eat their own if their own dare think outside the box of atheism.

  17. on 12 Oct 2012 at 1:20 pm 17.Scourge said …

    It is flattering that Eben Alexander III wants to claim “Harvard educated” but he went to med school at Duke. Maybe he went to summer school at H. He was at Brigham and Women’s/Harvard Med School as a neurosurgeon. It does not really matter. His old man was a neurosurgeon (famous for being a neurosurgeon not a crank) at Wake Forest and HE went to Harvard Med School. Likely got his son a residency there (if so he could legitimately claim a H connection). No2 may also have damaged his son by exposing him to all the kooky Baptists around WFU.

    But to the point, by EA III’s own admission, the meningitis he suffered from was “eating up his brain”. This seems very clear. What is more, there was no confirmation that his brain had in fact really shut down, or rather, there are no test that would either confirm or suggest this. It is just sad that this sort of foolishness is trotted out in this day and age and not immediately scorned into disgrace.

    Perhaps EA III’s psychotic break explains why he is no longer at BW/HMS and now more appropriately in Lynchburg VA home of the more fitting Liberty U.

  18. on 12 Oct 2012 at 2:28 pm 18.Lou(DFW) said …

    16.Ass said …

    “Does that mean Lou will actually read the article?
    Nah, he doesn’t understand all that science “stuff”. Shermer is absolutely spot on. Atheist will eat their own if their own dare think outside the box of atheism.”

    First of all, show us where “Atheist will eat their own…”

    Next, show us how, if any of what you wrote is true, that it’s relevant to the fact that you don’t have any evidence for your imaginary god.

  19. on 12 Oct 2012 at 3:04 pm 19.DPK said …

    16.A said …
    “4.Michael Shermer is an atheist.:
    Does that mean Lou will actually read the article?
    Nah, he doesn’t understand all that science “stuff”. Shermer is absolutely spot on. Atheist will eat their own if their own dare think outside the box of atheism.”

    “A”… in the article, Shermer observes:
    “we are, at base, a socially hierarchical primate species. We show deference to our leaders, pay respect to our elders and follow the dictates of our shamans; this being the Age of Science, it is scientism’s shamans who command our veneration.”

    Since you think that “Shermer is absolutely spot on” and are somehow presenting this as a criticism of atheism in general, are you then contending that “show[ing] deference to our leaders, pay[ing] respect to our elders, and follow[ing] the dictates of our shamans” is in and of itself a bad thing? That we should not look to leaders and those who posses greater knowledge and understanding in a particular field or area of study for information and guidance? Are you contending that science, as a source for this kind of information and knowledge, is on equal footing (in intellectual content) with religions? Do you contend that every human being needs to start from scratch, with a blank slate, and discover everything… personally?
    If you deride the notion of what is described as “scientism” as being an inherently bad thing, please explain how it is different from religion, except for the fact that science has a much better track record?
    If humans, as Shermer observes, are indeed by nature predisposed to “___isms”, why is science_ism bad and religion-ism good?

  20. on 12 Oct 2012 at 3:50 pm 20.Lou(DFW) said …

    19.DPK said …

    “why is science_ism bad and religion-ism good?”

    You don’t actually expect lying coward ASS to answer, do you?

  21. on 12 Oct 2012 at 5:06 pm 21.DPK said …

    No, but I like to bring attention to the fact that his arguments are half-assed at best, not well thought out, usually contradictory, and always asserted without evidence or foundation… and always, always, undefended when challenged.
    Just because it’s fun.

  22. on 12 Oct 2012 at 5:12 pm 22.Lou(DFW) said …

    16.ASS said …

    “Atheist will eat their own if their own dare think outside the box of atheism.”

    First, no atheist did any such thing- eat their own.

    Second, atheism isn’t actually an “ism.” It’s simply the disbelief in an imaginary god for which liars like ASS never provide any evidence.

    Last, the only way an atheist can “think outside the box of atheism” is to change from disbelieving in god to believing in an imaginary god. Similarly, an aleprechaunist can only think outside the box of alepchrechaunism by believing in leprechauns.

    It should be obvious to everyone who reads this blog that ASS is just a desperate theist who can only stoop to lying about and misrepresenting people who don’t believe in god.

  23. on 12 Oct 2012 at 6:06 pm 23.A said …

    Atheism compared to alepchrechaunism?

    Yes, that sounds right. Good call louser.

    “In 1998 God appeared at Caltech.
    More precisely, the scientific equivalent of the deity, in the form of Stephen W. Hawking, delivered a public lecture via his now familiar voice synthesizer. The 1,100-seat auditorium was filled; an additional 400 viewed a video feed in another hall, and hundreds more squatted on the lawn and listened to theater speakers broadcasting this scientific saint’s epistle to the apostles. The lecture was slated for 8 P.M.”

    Is this the God Nietzsche declared was dead? This is God? A man who cannot even leave his chair and is wrong as much as right?

    Atheist have their religion and their god.

  24. on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:02 pm 24.Anonymous said …

    Ass, and the evidence for this delusional belief that you have in the imaginary friend that you call god, would be what exactly?

  25. on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:20 pm 25.JALindsay said …

    23.A demonstrates he doesn’t understand the difference between metaphorical language and literalism, not surprising since he practices blurring those ideas daily to maintain his faith. Or he’s just a pathetic, prevaricating opportunist. Lou(DFW), I know… both.

  26. on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:35 pm 26.DPK said …

    Prime beat me too it… yes, the person who makes his living as an imaginary Astrophysicist thinks that Shermer was saying that people actually believe that Hawkings is literally god. I forgot, they don’t teach language arts at Astrophysics Skool, huh?
    No wonder you believe in talking snakes and donkeys.

  27. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:03 pm 27.JALindsay said …

    After considering the article that serves as the centerpiece of this blog post, I realized that an appropriate alternate headline would be “‘Heaven is Real,’ says man with bacteria eating his brain.”

  28. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:25 pm 28.Lou(DFW) said …

    26.DPK said …

    “I forgot, they don’t teach language arts at Astrophysics Skool, huh?”

    What do you expect from someone who doesn’t understand what irony is?

  29. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:27 pm 29.Lou(DFW) said …

    24.Anonymous said …

    “Ass, and the evidence for this delusional belief that you have in the imaginary friend that you call god, would be what exactly?”

    - lying about atheists. When a belief is a lie, the only way to defend is to lie, and ASS excels at that.

  30. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:28 pm 30.Lou(DFW) said …

    26.DPK said …

    “Prime beat me too it… yes, the person who makes his living as an imaginary Astrophysicist thinks that Shermer was saying that people actually believe that Hawkings is literally god.”

    And notice that ASS bothered to post his last bit of nonsense, but couldn’t answer one of your #19.

  31. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:49 pm 31.Lou(DFW) said …

    This Must Be Heaven

    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

  32. on 12 Oct 2012 at 9:54 pm 32.Scourge said …

    31 You beat me to it.

  33. on 12 Oct 2012 at 10:09 pm 33.DPK said …

    Riotously funny that “A” derides the concept of “scientism” for exactly the same type of characteristics as religions… which he finds nothing wrong with, while at the same time completely missing the point that scientism is NOT atheism, nor visa versa.
    Atheism is a disbelief in gods. It does not require that one worship scientists, it does not require that one be a democrat, a liberal, pro-choice, pro-obamacare, and environmentalist, gay, lesbian, intellectual, or ivy league educated. It doesn’t demand anything, and doesn’t have any associated “things”. You can be an atheist having lived your whole life without ever hearing of Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, or Stephen Hawkings.
    Now that “A” has once again shown his ignorance and demonstrated his obsessive compulsive need to try and take attention away from the fact that he has presented no good reason for anyone to buy any of the bullshit he is peddling… can we see your evidence for god, AssMan?

  34. on 12 Oct 2012 at 10:26 pm 34.Lou(DFW) said …

    33.DPK said …

    “Riotously funny that “A” derides the concept of “scientism” for exactly the same type of characteristics as religions… which he finds nothing wrong with, while at the same time completely missing the point that scientism is NOT atheism, nor visa versa.”

    I commented before that ASS and his ilk do more to PROMOTE disbelieving in their imaginary god than believing in it. It would seem they would simply learn to shut-up.

  35. on 13 Oct 2012 at 4:45 am 35.Ann said …

    For those who believe there is nothing you can say to change that belief and for those who do not believe in God there is nothing say to make them Believe.
    You cannot test God when you pray it is not to test God..if you really want to know you have to seek him..thru prayer by going to Church and by reading the Bible….also you have to learn a great virtue which is hard…patience..if you seek God he will reveal himself to you when he is ready.You cannot test God… maybe God was testing you to really see if you were truly seeking him.

  36. on 13 Oct 2012 at 11:51 am 36.alex said …

    “For those who believe there is nothing you can say to change that belief..”

    Bullshit. Theists here used to be believers.

    “You cannot test God when you pray…”

    It might not be a test, but the results are in. Prayer results are identical to no praying.

    “..seek God he will reveal himself to you when he is ready.”

    Your revelations are ALWAYS bullshit. As an atheist, I saw a white light in my dreams. It don’t mean shit, but if I was an idiot theist, I would probably attach it to some bullshit.

    The topic is about proof of heaven, but the concept is total bullshit. The allure however, is very real. Real enough, that I’m tempted to write my own bullshit experience. Never been in a coma, but I can make up some dream shit, wrap it up on how I used to be an atheist, package it as a book testimony and release it. We’ll see.

  37. on 13 Oct 2012 at 1:00 pm 37.Anonymous said …

    “It took me months to come to terms with what happened to me. Not just the medical impossibility that I had been conscious during my coma, but—more importantly—the things that happened during that time.”

    Translation: Over a period of months after this event I manufactured a story that helped me come to terms with my experience. This story was a perfect fit for my preexisting Christian cultural perception of heaven and was to be the basis for a book that would sell well amongst believers, such as myself, desperate for any form of validation of their irrational beliefs.

  38. on 13 Oct 2012 at 1:12 pm 38.Anonymous said …

    This guy would be right at home speaking to conference of new-age followers at a vortex in Sedona.

    Author, Speaker about (and Explorer of) Consciousness, and broadening the boundaries of Science to fully embrace our Spiritual Essence

    Specialties: Weaving the extraordinary tapestry of understanding of our existence, fully consistent with modern science; innovations in deep conscious exploration, specifically through advanced musical and audio methodologies

    “I travel the globe telling my story, and presenting the deep mystery of our conscious existence and the implications for broadening the boundaries of science to fully embrace our human spirituality, to a wide variety of audiences.”

    “I was shocked to find the hyper-reality of that spiritual realm which many had reported in NDEs. I have spent the last three+ years reconciling my rich spiritual experience with contemporary physics and cosmology. My spiritual experience is totally consistent with the leading edges of scientific understanding today.”

    “Together science and spirituality will thrive in a symbiosis offering the most profound insight into fundamental Truth, yielding unimaginable power. The keystone is in global progression of individual conscious awakening.”

  39. on 13 Oct 2012 at 3:08 pm 39.Severin said …

    35 Ann
    “…and for those who do not believe in God there is nothing say to make them Believe.”

    I promise I will believe in god as soon as someone finally provides some evidences that there is one.

    Whom can I believe without evidences?
    Muslims? Baptists? Catholics? Jews? Scientologists? Jehovah’s Witnesses?… ?

  40. on 13 Oct 2012 at 11:06 pm 40.Slapnuts McGee said …

    Who actually purchases these books?

  41. on 13 Oct 2012 at 11:22 pm 41.alex said …

    “Who actually purchases these books?”

    these books are attempts by the morons, to try to reinforce the brainwashing that is eroding and being replaced by analytical thinking.

    this erosion is the reason why bibles and their bullshit verses are bandied about and the endless bullshit testimonies about god. also, why the idiots don’t believe in birth control. more morons to carry the flag.

    mirror sites: whywontsantahealamputees, whywontleprechaunhealamputees, whywonttoothfairyhealamputees.

  42. on 14 Oct 2012 at 1:14 am 42.Anonymous said …

    “Who actually purchases these books?”

    From a review of a similar book: “I read this book truly hoping to find an account of life after death that I could believe in.”

    In other words, people who are looking for validation of their belief in the supernatural. It probably doesn’t matter that much if it’s a different heaven or a different god as long as it affords an opportunity to say “see, it’s real after all”.

  43. on 14 Oct 2012 at 8:06 pm 43.The messenger said …

    People who want to learn about the different religions in the world are the people who want to purchase these kinds of books.

  44. on 15 Oct 2012 at 1:58 am 44.Open Mind said …

    Why would a successful neurosurgeon both fiscally and in peer prestige risk ridicule and ostracization by his peers/patients, simply to sell a book that is not going to be read by most of the general public? Alexander admits that he is a christian by upbringing, but prior to the coma, didn’t practice or believe in many of the tenets of the christian faith.
    The man knows infinitley more in regards to brain/mind functions than any poster here ever will. Yet everyone here is condeming him as some type of deluded fundementalist. To the naysayers here, what are your credentials in nueroscience??? Talk about a close-minded lot. Your equal to or worse than the rabid religious fundamentalists you ridicule. Just because one spouts allegiance to scientific method/principles, it does not guarantee your point of view is automatically correct.
    And no, I am not a religious person. I look at correlations, as does the scientific method, to make evaluations.

  45. on 15 Oct 2012 at 2:46 am 45.JALindsay said …

    43.Open Mind said …

    “Why would a successful neurosurgeon both fiscally and in peer prestige risk ridicule and ostracization by his peers/patients, simply to sell a book that is not going to be read by most of the general public? ”

    Okay, you’re kidding, right? “Heaven is for real,” which is a similar story from a four-year-old kid from a couple of years ago went best-seller (number 2 or 1 on Amazon for that year), making literally millions. This guy is a surgeon, which is being bastardized into “scientist,” which makes him a guru and symbol of the opposition at the same time!

    “Most of the general public” doesn’t matter. A few hundred thousand (less than 0.1% of the American population alone) is enough to make you a millionaire on passive income alone.

    Also, you don’t really lose a whole lot in our culture for saying you believe in God like this. In fact, a fair proportion of hospitals in our country are openly Christian organizations that wouldn’t bat an eye at having such a person on their staff, particularly if his surgery skills are good.

    “Alexander admits that he is a christian by upbringing, but prior to the coma, didn’t practice or believe in many of the tenets of the christian faith.”

    Right, so all the iconography was completely loaded in his brain before he rode what looks a lot like a DMT trip.

    “The man knows infinitley more in regards to brain/mind functions than any poster here ever will.”

    Does he? Maybe he does, but does he know more than neuroscientists? They seem to think not. Read Sam Harris’s piece, linked above, which utterly eviscerates this man’s unscientific approach and notes that neurosurgeons aren’t necessarily so steeped in brain/mind functions (care to illustrate that you know the difference between brain and mind here, btw?).

    “Talk about a close-minded lot.”

    You’ve got to be kidding here too. Skepticism doesn’t imply closed-mindedness. It’s more like having an open mind but not so open as to let the bugs in.

    “Your equal to or worse than the rabid religious fundamentalists you ridicule.”

    False.

    “Just because one spouts allegiance to scientific method/principles, it does not guarantee your point of view is automatically correct.”

    Exactly. The whole point is that scientific points of view don’t do what the author of this book is asking people to do: TRUST HIM without testing it for themselves or following other logical possibilities that have higher plausibility–like that bacteria was eating a man’s brain and he was hallucinating as a result.

  46. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:04 am 46.Lou(DFW) said …

    43.Open Mind said …

    “The man knows infinitley more in regards to brain/mind functions than any poster here ever will. Yet everyone here is condeming him as some type of deluded fundementalist. To the naysayers here, what are your credentials in nueroscience???”

    Nobody here needs credentials of any kind to know that
    the Santa Claus story isn’t true. We mustn’t be astronomers’s or astrophysicists to know that humans aren’t being abducted in their sleep by ET’s.

    It’s that simple.

  47. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:07 am 47.Lou(DFW) said …

    43.Open Mind said …

    “I look at correlations, as does the scientific method, to make evaluations.”

    You didn’t provide any evaluation. All you offered was an appeal to authority.

  48. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:19 am 48.Open Mind said …

    1. I’ll concede the money ‘potential’. That remains to be seen. A neurosurgeon is a scientist. A NS is schooled in the same scientific methodology as a scientist. Please define how a ‘valid scientist’ is schooled in scientific method that is different than what a medical doctor is schooled in? I was a physician assistant in the military and hold a college degree in the sciences. The scientific method taught/utilized is the same whether in medicine or non-medical scientific fields.
    2. The iconography would exist in Alexander’s mind even if he wasn’t a christian. Millions of non-christians know christian iconography, as millions of christians know iconography from other religions.
    3. Drug induced hallucinations can only take place when the brain has active cortex functions. Alexander was brain dead in that region. Are you going to now claim that the highest medical technology machines available are wrong? And all the medical personnel involved in his care during the coma were wrong in the assesment he was brain dead.
    4. Skepticism, as seen in previous posts here border on character assasination more than sound logic or reasoning.
    5. What is your ‘logical possibility’ of this phenomena occuring in a phyical brain that is non-functional? …i.e..brain dead
    6. Alexander is a neurosurgeon who scrutinized the phenomena against every scientific method in his training/experience. The scientic method and a neurosurgeon was unable to explain it, yet you are going to explain how it occured. I look foward to your purely scientific explanation.

  49. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:30 am 49.Anonymous said …

    Or, OM, you could read the Sam Harris article for yourself. It answers your questions and more.

    You should also watch this video as you seem to be making the common mistake of thinking an “open mind” means accepting any old rubbish that fits your preconceptions. http://youtu.be/T69TOuqaqXI

  50. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:35 am 50.Anonymous said …

    “And no, I am not a religious person. I look at correlations, as does the scientific method, to make evaluations.”

    Yet correlation does not imply causation. You appear not to appreciate that important aspect of the scientific method.

  51. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:40 am 51.Open Mind said …

    Actually if you were as well versed in ‘scientific method’ as you would espouse, you would know that correlation is used to define causation in many aspects of science. This is an accepted practice.

    We are not discussing Harris here. Stay on the topic and answer the questions in my last post. Please do so in a scientific manner.

  52. on 15 Oct 2012 at 4:02 am 52.Anonymous said …

    Ah, the curmudgeon school of trolling. Welcome back.

  53. on 15 Oct 2012 at 4:03 am 53.JALindsay said …

    We are “discussing Harris,” OM, because Harris answered all six of your questions in an article that was linked to above your questions, in other words, this thread has already presented the answers to those questions, which you are ignoring. Also, they’re utterly relevant. Also, we’re not discussing Harris (note how I used quotes above and not here, that’s relevant), we’re appealing for you to read Harris’s discussion on the same topics as you are raising in this thread.

    So, I’m a mathematician. My brother is a real scientist in a hard field. I’ve read most of his textbooks, undergraduate and graduate, followed his research, and can press him on scientific reasoning and kind of embarrass him. I have a degree in physics. I’m not a scientist, though. I’m a mathematician. I am not a scientist, however well I understand the scientific method and however much science I know about, because I am not a practicing scientist *doing science* on a day-to-day basis. I do not set up experiments, I do not evaluate those experiments, I do not analyze data, I do not create models to test against the data, and I don’t go out of my way to deliberately find the weaknesses and biases that I’ve built into my explanations so that those better fit the data.

    Similarly, neurosurgeons do not actively seek to understand how the brain operates, nor do they study it on a theoretical level. It’s rather like how an auto mechanic isn’t exactly a mechanical engineer. Of course, Harris makes that point in the article we keep pointing you to, makes it clearly, and yet you persist in trying to get us to regurgitate it for you. Might we presume that the reason is that you want to try to disqualify our responses later as we’re not neuroscientists? Sam Harris is a neuroscientist. He weighed in on this matter. His response is linked to in this thread. You’ve been invited to read it a number of times. You resist. Why? More vulgarly, what’s your problem?

    That takes care of 1.
    2. Good point. Thus even if he had had a hallucination of Lord Brahman, we couldn’t believe him about Hinduism being true either. The funny thing here is that the religious iconography we’re indoctrinated in (as in taught to believe is true) as children is particularly powerful. Joseph Campbell elaborated on that, as have others, but I know… we’re not talking about Campbell here.
    3. Read the Harris article. He articulates this *vastly* better than I could and vastly better than you did, only he’s saying exactly why your #3 here is flatly wrong. Read the Harris article. Have an open mind.
    4. Separate the two. This is a comment thread on an informal blog, not a scholarly journal. I can be skeptical and assassinate your character without having to be very conscientious to stick to the first and avoid the second. Read some more on the comment threads on this blog, and you’ll see why you get that kind of response, which you’ll want to call ad hominem, but you’d do so incorrectly.
    5. If he was brain dead, he’d be dead. Read the Harris article. Covered. Really.
    6. I didn’t say I can explain it. I think Alexander’s analysis sucks and am saying that. I have the weight of Sam Harris, who can say it from authority, behind me. Also, as pointed out above, I don’t have to be a neurosurgeon to point out why certain kinds of beliefs are silly or, more importantly, why certain kinds of information do not constitute evidence.

    By the way, you’re welcome. I shouldn’t waste this much time with someone who won’t even bother to do the homework plainly set in front of them before demanding more of my time, but I’m a nice guy.

  54. on 15 Oct 2012 at 5:22 am 54.Anonymous said …

    Sam Harris is a neuroscientist………….so is Alexander. Perhaps because Harris’ opinions agree with yours……that makes him correct.

    You attempt to dismantle any neurosurgeons qualifications in this area we are discussing:

    “Similarly, neurosurgeons do not actively seek to understand how the brain operates, nor do they study it on a theoretical level. It’s rather like how an auto mechanic isn’t exactly a mechanical engineer”….

    and then you hold Harris (a neurosurgeon) up as the authority on this subject.

    Ooookay…..lol

  55. on 15 Oct 2012 at 5:39 am 55.Anonymous said …

    Correction: and then you hold Harris (a “neuroscientist”) up as the authority on this subject.
    And BTW……a board certified neurosurgeon is more than competent to assess the functions of the human brain as is a neuroscientist. You try to intimate that a neurosurgeon is simply a cut and hack person with little to no knowledge of how the brain functions. If you had advanced medical training you would know that doctors are trained in two aspects (theoretical and hands on). The nueroscientist gets the theoretical training only.

  56. on 15 Oct 2012 at 11:34 am 56.A said …

    Open Mind,

    They are not. Great questions that Lindsay and Anony will never ever answer. They are trolls who are only looking to protect their own myopic worldview. Did you know Lindsay is a mathematician? He/she has a book too?

  57. on 15 Oct 2012 at 1:06 pm 57.Lou(DFW) said …

    55.ASS said …

    “Great questions that Lindsay and Anony will never ever answer.”

    LOL! Writes the guy who NEVER, EVER answers any direct questions on this blog.

    “They are trolls who are only looking to protect their own myopic worldview.”

    First of all, disbelief in your imaginary god isn’t a “worldview” of any kind.

    Second you NEVER, EVER present evidence for your imaginary god upon which your worldview is based.

    Now, back under the bridge with you, you lying coward.

  58. on 15 Oct 2012 at 2:04 pm 58.Anonymous said …

    It’s all about the theists not answering questions. They ask questions purely to control the conversation. They are not interested in the answers other than to say “you can’t explain x – therefore my imaginary god is real”

  59. on 15 Oct 2012 at 2:52 pm 59.JALindsay said …

    It appears we have two anonymouses now, one who knows what he’s talking about and one who can’t distinguish between a neurosurgeon and a neuroscientist. Pro-tip, Anon53, the surgeon is the one with the bone saw and the knife and the scientist is the one that can do science.

  60. on 15 Oct 2012 at 3:43 pm 60.Lou(DFW) said …

    54.Anonymous said …

    “And BTW……a board certified neurosurgeon is more than competent to assess the functions of the human brain as is a neuroscientist.”

    While he’s in a coma?

  61. on 15 Oct 2012 at 5:19 pm 61.Lou(DFW) said …

    54.Anonymous said …

    “The nueroscientist gets the theoretical training only.”

    LOL! Any defense of him is ridiculous. Anybody, especially an alleged scientist, knows that his evidence is anecdotal, and therefore it’s unacceptable in any case.

  62. on 15 Oct 2012 at 6:06 pm 62.Anonymous said …

    So, OM, let’s take the story at face value. What does your evaluation tell you? Do you consider this proof of the existence of a particular god? If so, which one and why?

    Please be specific and avoid metaphysical and poetic language so that we can clearly understand your response.

  63. on 15 Oct 2012 at 7:27 pm 63.Lou said …

    “Do you consider this proof of the existence of a particular god? If so, which one and why?”

    This question is not relevant until you have taken the first step. You must accept the obvious that God does exist and then you may proceed to determining His nature.

    Open Mind presented some very poignant questions. Will any of the atheist have the courage to answer one maybe two? Not nonsense but meaningful thoughts.

  64. on 15 Oct 2012 at 7:59 pm 64.Lou(DFW) said …

    62.Louser said …

    “This question is not relevant until you have taken the first step. You must accept the obvious that God does exist and then you may proceed to determining His nature.”

    I never thought I would agree, but Louser is correct. To accept an NDE experience as true one must be first be delusional.

    “Will any of the atheist have the courage to answer one maybe two? Not nonsense but meaningful thoughts.”

    First of all, they were answered.

    Second, you’re in no position to demand anything of anyone while during the years you’re here you don’t provide any evidence for your imaginary god.

    Last, this entire defense of this NDE experience is complete and utter B.S. because it’s anecdotal evidence. You never used any other many other NDE experiences as evidence for your imaginary god, so why now?

  65. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:08 pm 65.The messenger said …

    Heaven is The capital of Gods kingdom, I have seen it my self and It is more beautiful than anything on Earth.

  66. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:10 pm 66.Anonymous said …

    You are both correct. The question was posed to see if we’d get an answer or just more diversions and insults. It’s not clear where OM is going, if he’s going anywhere at all, other than the usual tactic of asking endless questions to derail the conversation.

  67. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:33 pm 67.JALindsay said …

    62.Lou said …
    “This question is not relevant until you have taken the first step. You must accept the obvious that God does exist and then you may proceed to determining His nature.”

    Actually, wrong. The question was “which God are you arguing for?” which does not require you to accept anything, particularly something as unlikely as that “God” does exist. The question wasn’t about his nature. It was about “which god are you talking about?”

    Zeus? Don’t have to believe in Zeus to wonder if someone else is trying to make a point about him.
    Ra? Don’t have to believe in Ra to wonder if someone else is trying to make a point about him.
    Wotan? I just wanted to write “Wotan.”

    I’d put that Que…tl one from the Americas, but I don’t want to take the time to look up how to spell it again.

  68. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:38 pm 68.Lou said …

    Everyone look closely. The atheists again refuse to answer the questions; this time from Open Mind.

    The tactic of asking the same question over and over again because they don’t like the answer is their only trick. They have nothing else.

    Open Mind

    1. The money issue they bring up is irrelevant. It is a smear in order to smear the good doctor. No proof and moving on. Maybe he went into the coma for the money too?
    3. You are correct.
    4. Character assassination is the intent of the atheists. Logic and reason only come from a few select posters.
    5. No logical possibility exists. However, since the surgeon has infringed on the atheist worldview, he must be denigrated.
    6. It will not happen.

    Antony Flew had the same attacks upon him when he went fro atheism to theism. The atheist respond like Wahabis when they lose an adherent.

  69. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:46 pm 69.The messenger said …

    Heaven is The capital of God’s kingdom, I have seen it my self and It is more beautiful than anything on Earth.

  70. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:55 pm 70.JALindsay said …

    Everyone look closely. The theist Lou again lies to support his case when he says “Antony Flew had the same attacks upon him when he went fro atheism to theism.” Antony Flew went “fro” atheism to deism, not theism, and there is not a meaningful overlap there. Indeed, it is raw desperation that induces them to include deists on their rolls.

    Everyone look closely. He lies flat-out when he adds “The atheist respond like Wahabis when they lose an adherent.” There’s not even any such thing as “adherence” to atheism and this superstar knows it.

  71. on 15 Oct 2012 at 8:58 pm 71.Lou(DFW) said …

    68.Louser said …

    “Everyone look closely. The atheists again refuse to answer the questions; this time from Open Mind.”

    Except that they were answered in 53.JALindsay said …

    “Antony Flew had the same attacks upon him when he went fro atheism to theism. The atheist respond like Wahabis when they lose an adherent.”

    That’s a lie, but let’s assume it’s true. How is it evidence that Alexander’s NDE is evidence for heaven or that your imaginary god is real?

    Unless YOU can answer those questions, then, as usual, your comments are nothing but an irrelevant diversion.

  72. on 15 Oct 2012 at 9:26 pm 72.The messenger said …

    67.JALindsay that was not the question at all. The question was “do you consider this proof of your God?”

    You are lying about the question by saying that it was really “which God do you stand for.

    Stop lying to your self and everyone else JALindsay.

    Ps. God is real.

  73. on 15 Oct 2012 at 9:27 pm 73.The messenger said …

    70.JALindsay Lou is not lying.

    It is you that is lying.

  74. on 15 Oct 2012 at 10:43 pm 74.The messenger said …

    70.JALindsay I think that Lou ment to type the word”from”, instead of fro.

  75. on 16 Oct 2012 at 12:17 am 75.alex said …

    i guess all the neurosurgeons on the planet are all lining up supporting of this Eben Alexander dude?

    this is your proof?

    hey mom! i know this real smart kid and he swears he’s seen and talked with santa, therefore…..

    fucking, appeal shit.

  76. on 16 Oct 2012 at 3:58 pm 76.JALindsay said …

    To 72-74.The messenger:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You really showed me.

  77. on 25 Oct 2012 at 1:41 pm 77.shipdog7 said …

    Recently a doctor had a similar story to tell on the internet. Now a Neuroscientist. I guess they think with their titles we are more apt to believe what they say must be true. I also am a believer of the hereafter based on my past experiences. And I would truly like to believe in what this guy claims happened to him. But I get turned off when I eventually read…….his new book, “Proof of Heaven,” This is all about making money off of what many of us want to believe takes place after death. If you read other stories like this they always end in a book deal. If I told you I was a janitor at a local school and had a book of the same topic would you buy it? Have doubts? If I said I was a well known, highly respected brain surgeon would you buy it? See what I mean?

  78. on 25 Oct 2012 at 8:56 pm 78.DPK said …

    Saw this guy on Nightline last night hyping his book…
    reporter asked him how he knew his experience was real (flying on a magical butterfly with an angel).. his answer “Oh, I know it was real…” OoooKay….

    Most experts in neuro science have dismissed his claim that he was “completely brain dead” as nonsense… most likely he had his hallucination while coming out of the coma.

    Interesting for the theists that buy his story though… according to his account, the angel gave his a message from god to deliver to us… she told him that “you are loved, you are cherished, there’s nothing you have to fear, there’s nothing you can do wrong,”
    Hmmm.. that means no hell, no punishment, no damnation, no sin. Looks like Hor and the sock puppets will have to spend eternity with the likes of us filthy liberal atheists. Bet they don’t like that idea too much. hahahahaha

  79. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:26 pm 79.JALindsay said …

    It’s a sad day when yahoos can claim a hallucination is proof of something people want to hear and get all this media attention for a book but when a well-reasoned discourse on the same topic from the other side takes a lot of diligent marketing to get off the ground.

  80. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:29 pm 80.alex said …

    according to cbs news, 69% of dying cancer patients think that treatment can help them. i guess heaven ain’t good enough is it? even though the damn tickets are free and easy to come by. now, i could convert rather easily couldn’t i? but i don’t because….??

  81. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:45 pm 81.Lou(DFW) said …

    79.alex said …

    “according to cbs news, 69% of dying cancer patients think that treatment can help them. i guess heaven ain’t good enough is it? even though the damn tickets are free and easy to come by.”

    I always wondered about that, too? Why are xtians so afraid to die? Why would any xtian seek medical attention for a deadly illness if they KNOW they are going heaven?

    Because xtians, like all theists, are frauds. They don’t actually believe the very superstitious nonsense that they foist upon everybody else. Is it because misery loves company?

  82. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:47 pm 82.Lou(DFW) said …

    78.DPK said …

    “Looks like Hor and the sock puppets will have to spend eternity with the likes of us filthy liberal atheists. Bet they don’t like that idea too much. hahahahaha”

    Nor do I! I prefer death over that. LOL!

  83. on 25 Oct 2012 at 9:52 pm 83.Lou(DFW) said …

    77.shipdog7 said …

    “If I told you I was a janitor at a local school and had a book of the same topic would you buy it? Have doubts? If I said I was a well known, highly respected brain surgeon would you buy it? See what I mean?”

    Don’t ever underestimate the stupidity and gullibility of xtians. They will buy anything that supports their ancient superstition:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Burpo

  84. on 25 Oct 2012 at 10:36 pm 84.alex said …

    “Why would any xtian seek medical attention for a deadly illness…”

    methinks, xtians struggle with their belief. they wear seatbelts, do all the sensible stuff, but when confronted with their mortality, like a fatal illness, they hedge, seeking useless and expensive medical treatment while at the same time trying to justify it with their bullshit freewill.

    this struggle compels them to lash out to nonxtians, because it exacerbates their condition. i guess the church diet is not well balanced enough.

    bullshit heaven will not wait.

  85. on 25 Oct 2012 at 10:48 pm 85.A said …

    “I guess they think with their titles we are more apt to believe what they say must be true.

    Shippy,

    Sure they do. You guys are the first to buy anything a a scientist with letters behind their name will say. Things like something coming from nothing, creation looks designed but its not. You know, the classics that help remain in your delusion.

    Looney Lou and alex Esquire,

    Thanks guys. I am SO grateful I didn’t miss that exchange. lol

  86. on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:00 pm 86.alex said …

    “Things like something coming from nothing..”

    made up shit from a moron with a make believe god.

    “…the classics that help remain in your delusion.”

    my delusion in not believing? you’re an idiot. admit it, you don’t believe in your own bullshit, so you antagonize and do weird shit, get saved and do it again. say 20,000 more hail marys and get the fuck outta here.

  87. on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:06 pm 87.Truth said …

    Charles Woods, the father Tyrone Woods, who was killed in the 9/11 terrorist attack at the American consulate in Benghazi, Libya, reveals details of meeting Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton at the publically broadcast memorial service for the slain Americans at Andrews Air Force Base only days after the attack. And, in a recent radio appearance, Woods publicly questions who made the call not to send in back-up forces to possibly save his son’s life, as well as the three other Americans killed in Benghazi (which includes the American ambassador to Libya).

    “When [Obama] came over to our little area” at Andrew Air Force Base, says Woods, “he kind of just mumbled, you know, ‘I’m sorry.’ His face was looking at me, but his eyes were looking over my shoulder like he could not look me in the eye. And it was not a sincere, ‘I’m really sorry, you know, that you’re son died,’ but it was totally insincere, more of whining type, ‘I’m sorry.’”

    Woods says that shaking President Obama’s hands at his son’s memorial service was “like shaking hands with a dead fish.”

    “It just didn’t feel right,” he says of his encounter with the commander in chief. “And now that it’s coming out that apparently the White House situation room was watching our people die in real time, as this was happening,” Woods says, he wants answers on what happened—and why there was no apparent effort to save his son’s life.

    “Well, this is what Hillary did,” Woods continues. “She came over and, you know, did the same thing—separately came over and talked with me. I gave her a hug, shook her hand. And she did not appear to be one bit sincere—at all. And you know, she mentioned that the thing about, we’re going to have that person arrested and prosecuted that did the video. That was the first time I had even heard about anything like that.”

  88. on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:32 pm 88.Lou(DFW) said …

    84.ASS said …

    “You guys are the first to buy anything a a scientist with letters behind their name will say.”

    Poor ASS, he can’t help but get confused when lying about atheists. If what he said was true, then we would BELIEVE, not disbelieve Eben Alexander’s explanation for his hallucination.

    “Things like something coming from nothing, creation looks designed but its not. You know, the classics that help remain in your delusion.”

    LOL! Creation doesn’t look designed anymore than you “look” intelligent. But if you have some evidence that it was designed by your imaginary god, then please present it rather than lie about atheists.

  89. on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:34 pm 89.Lou(DFW) said …

    86.Truth the Obama OCD sock puppet said …

    …nothing about anything relevant to the topic or about god and religion.

  90. on 26 Oct 2012 at 12:59 am 90.alex said …

    86.Truth said …

    the truth is, you’re an idiot. who gives a fuck about all this other crap. you’ve got nothing, zilch, nada, nil for your bullshit god, so you resort to the typical theist tactic. look at obama. look at hitler. look up in the sky. atheist, no morals.

    your heaven is bullshit and you know it. otherwise, you’ll just let all this other crap go.

  91. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:24 am 91.Anonymous said …

    Did “A” ever produce his credentials or tell us his real name, like he was expecting of others?

  92. on 26 Oct 2012 at 2:27 am 92.The messenger said …

    89.alex heaven is real.

    It is not fake, I have seen it my self.

  93. on 26 Oct 2012 at 3:31 pm 93.DPK said …

    And do you agree with his account of heaven, that god told him to tell us that “you are loved, you are cherished, there’s nothing you have to fear, there’s nothing you can do wrong,”?

    Because if that’s true, everyone goes to heaven, no matter what they do or believe… this man has BEEN to heaven and HE says god told him personally, “there’s nothing you have to fear, there’s nothing you can do wrong….”

    That means no hell… so you will be sharing heaven with Hitler, Stalin, and all the other mass murders, child rapists, and other scum of humanity… and yes, even atheists, agnostics, and Buddhists!!! If that’s the case… and if you accept his story, you have to accept his message from god… why bother trying to convince anyone of the reality of god, or heaven, or any of your bullshit? It doesn’t matter. That’s what god said.

    Did YOUR god tell you different when YOU went to heaven, messenger? If so, then ONE of you is lying.

  94. on 26 Oct 2012 at 4:04 pm 94.Lou(DFW) said …

    93.DPK said …

    “Did YOUR god tell you different when YOU went to heaven, messenger? If so, then ONE of you is lying.”

    No, everyone who claims to have a personal relationship or communication with god, or who claims to visit heaven is lying.

  95. on 26 Oct 2012 at 4:27 pm 95.DPK said …

    True Lou… I should have said “If so, AT LEAST one of you must be lying….”
    Of course, the subtlety will be lost on messenger… who with his declaration about ancient Hebrews in North America and his defense of baptisms in absentia has finally outed himself as a Mormon.
    Thought as much… I wonder why the LDS hasn’t officially claimed him as a prophet… seeing how he’s talked face to face with god and been to heaven personally and all… I could be wrong, but I don’t think even Joseph Smith of Brigham Young ever claimed to have actually visited heaven.
    So, I’d guess it’s safe to say that even the Mormons know he’s a nut job… and man, THAT takes some doing, because those mother f&%$er’s will buy ANYTHING.. hahaha….

  96. on 26 Oct 2012 at 7:11 pm 96.Ben said …

    Truth

    I honestly hope Romney brings Obama up on charges when this cover-up on Benghazi is completely uncovered. It is quite obvious this co-called Christian ignored calls for help, ignored calls for assistance and then lied about the incident. He has the blood on his hands, not some obscure home movie maker.

    I would call it Watergate but at least in Watergate nobody lost their lives.

  97. on 26 Oct 2012 at 9:01 pm 97.MrQ said …

    Ben,
    Take your meds.

  98. on 26 Oct 2012 at 9:08 pm 98.DPK said …

    96.Ben said …

    “… let’s talk about anything we possibly can to divert attention away from the fact that our belief in magical gods is completely insane and that we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support our ridiculous claims. Maybe no one will notice if we keep trying to divert the discussion to President Obama…”

    Tragically, it might even be somehow tangentially evident perhaps if President Obama were an atheist… but he is not. So, what has Benghazi got to do with ANYTHING relevant to this forum??? NOTHING.

  99. on 26 Oct 2012 at 9:10 pm 99.The messenger said …

    95.DPK google the following words and you will see proof that Hebrews were in North America way before the settlers came.

    (Written in Ancient Hebrew) “Moses with the Ten Commandments” in the smithsonian

  100. on 26 Oct 2012 at 10:02 pm 100.alex said …

    “I honestly hope Romney brings Obama up on charges..”

    you’re an idiot. fellowship is out of window. you’re a damn xtian, but your racist hatred overrides all.

    true colors motherfucker.

    you go to a atheist site and just to slam your fellow xtian, ain’t that some shit. well, he black, ain’t that all that matters? romney so mormon crazy, but he ‘aight, coz he white, and he’ll do us right.

  101. on 26 Oct 2012 at 10:20 pm 101.A said …

    Truth & Ben,

    Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not make it so. Read Obama’s own book “Dreams of my Father”. His greatest hero was his dead-beat father and his Muslim faith along with some half-wit radicals who hate the white man. His own words explain much of this facade he has built to allow him to gain power as the POTUS. Don’t take my word for it. Read his words.

    He is not Muslim but he is not Christian either. He has faith in himself and himself alone with a serious case of a God-complex. He is a complete failure because he doesn’t even realize how unqualified and untalented he is as a leader.

    I will accept The Obama’s taking up residence in Benghazi after the election as adequate punishment.

  102. on 26 Oct 2012 at 10:21 pm 102.A said …

    alex back away from the ledge and take your Xanax. You sound like a slobbering schizophrenic.

  103. on 26 Oct 2012 at 10:34 pm 103.alex said …

    “alex back away from the ledge and take your Xanax.”

    says the dipshit while vandalizing an atheist site.

    “Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not make it so”

    so, post your xtian checklist, since you’re the fucking determinant, wannabee, head fuckin master. let’s see it.

    your porn tab has finished loading. as usual, you got no god proof, just failed diversions.

  104. on 26 Oct 2012 at 10:38 pm 104.alex said …

    ” You sound like a slobbering schizophrenic.”

    wanna try posting your shit in tagalog, my native language? let’s see it, asshole.

  105. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:04 pm 105.The messenger said …

    100.alex Obama is a liar. I don’t like him.

    I do not have a problem with a bieng African American President, I just have a problem with a president who lies.

  106. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:06 pm 106.Lou(DFW) said …

    96.Has-Ben said in his OCD Obama stupor nothing relevant to the topic nor about his imaginary god and religion.

  107. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:09 pm 107.Lou(DFW) said …

    101.ASS said …

    “Me and other me,

    I will accept The Obama’s taking up residence in Benghazi after the election as adequate punishment.”

    PERFECT!

    Why don’t you move out of your mother’s basement to head on over and help get it ready for him because you obviously can’t provide and evidence for your imaginary god here?

  108. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:12 pm 108.Lou(DFW) said …

    101.ASS said …

    “Me & other me,

    Don’t take my word for it.”

    REALLY! LOL!

    “He has faith in himself and himself alone with a serious case of a God-complex.”

    As opposed to ASS who has no faith in himself nor his abilities, and instead must rely on an imaginary sky daddy in the sky to make it through life. What I don’t understand is why your imaginary god never helps you here on the blog.

  109. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:20 pm 109.Lou(DFW) said …

    102.A said …

    “alex back away from the ledge and take your Xanax.”

    No, alex – please, push ASS as hard you can.

  110. on 26 Oct 2012 at 11:25 pm 110.Lou(DFW) said …

    101.ASS said …

    “Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not make it so.”

    But just because someone says god is real or that they spoke to god or that they visited heaven, then it IS real, right?

    So, simply because you claim that god is real doesn’t make it so. Provide some evidence for your imaginary god or STFU.

  111. on 27 Oct 2012 at 12:07 am 111.alex said …

    “alex back away from the ledge”

    noooh! i’m afraid to die. i ain’t got no heaven. that’s why i go to the doctor.

    even though, i could switch
    at the drop of a hat
    i won’t and will not
    believe in that sheyat.

  112. on 27 Oct 2012 at 12:10 am 112.The messenger said …

    110.Lou(DFW) here is proof of God.

    Miracle of the Sun

    Location of Fátima, Portugal
    The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event on 13 October 1917 in which 30,000 to 100,000 people, who were gathered near Fátima, Portugal, claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity.

    According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes.[1] The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.[2]

    The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[3]

    ShowThe event

    ShowDe Marchi accounts

    ShowCritical evaluation of the event

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  113. on 27 Oct 2012 at 2:02 am 113.JALindsay said …

    That is not proof of God, but it is proof of how bad you are at basic computer-use functions like copy/paste. Keep praying.

  114. on 27 Oct 2012 at 3:01 am 114.Anonymous said …

    Here’s proof, messenger-style, of the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/category/evidence/

    Messenger is too close minded to accept the truth which is why it’s not worth posting links to His miracles, but he can Google them just as he does for his false god.

    If messenger would only accept the FSM into his heart he’d know that His Noodly Appendage is responsible for all of creation.

  115. on 27 Oct 2012 at 3:48 am 115.JALindsay said …

    It’s true. I’m a minister in that church. It’s all true. Every word of it.

  116. on 27 Oct 2012 at 1:54 pm 116.Anonymous said …

    Great, that proves it beyond a doubt. Also, seeing as you are a minister in the church, I’d like to ask your advice.

    Before I do so, in the same manner as celibate Christian priests offer advice on relationships and sex, I do want to make sure that you are as totally unqualified as a Christian minister would be to answer my question?

  117. on 27 Oct 2012 at 2:17 pm 117.JALindsay said …

    What do you want to hear?

  118. on 27 Oct 2012 at 2:43 pm 118.DPK said …

    I have a question for Rev Prime too!!!
    What exactly is the difference between angel hair and capellini?

  119. on 27 Oct 2012 at 3:05 pm 119.JALindsay said …

    We don’t split hairs over delicious noodles, DPK, we just eat them. RAmen.

  120. on 27 Oct 2012 at 5:17 pm 120.The messenger said …

    113.JALindsay I only copy and paste what I want.

    I copied and pasted the entire article because I wanted to.

    There where over 2000 witnesses and you say that it is not proof, just how
    stupid are you.

  121. on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:30 pm 121.DPK said …

    I see, in other words, you have no idea.

    I remember an interview I saw with Dawkins and some Baptist born again preacher type with a TV church, a gold Rolex and a private jet waiting outside. During the interview Dawkins asked him fit was true that he became a minister at age 13… the dude responded with a big smile and said, “YES”… I did become an ordained minister and started preaching god’s word at 13.” Then Dawkins asked him “What do you think it says about the credibility of your religion that someone can become an ordained minister and leader when they aren’t even out of grade school?”
    The guy got his panties in a wad and stormed off.
    hahahahaha.
    Here is a real question that will test the mettle of your faith, Rev. Prime… noodles aside… is the tomato enriched goodness with which we garnish our angle hair and capellini called sauce, or gravy? Answer carefully, as your eternal soul may hang in the balance………….

  122. on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:37 pm 122.The messenger said …

    121.DPK I think that he was joking when he said yes to being ordained at 13.

    He stormed off because he was upset because Dawkins.

  123. on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:47 pm 123.JALindsay said …

    I call it sauce except when it is gravy or oil.

    Also, I’m ordained. I don’t need this kind of crap. The noodly appendage is on my side.

  124. on 27 Oct 2012 at 7:17 pm 124.JALindsay said …

    But let me not be unfair. You too can be ordained. All you need is $20. Thanks to the FSM, it is legally recognized as a religion, so you can have all of the honor and privilege associated with that. Also, you can argue for your own theory about noodles and their toppings. It’s all very serious.

  125. on 27 Oct 2012 at 7:18 pm 125.DPK said …

    You sir, are a fraud. I’m from Philadelphia and everyone knows it is tomato GRAVY… you probably get yours from a jar, like a mamaluke… you may call yourself a pastafarian, but that don’t mean you are one.

  126. on 27 Oct 2012 at 7:36 pm 126.JALindsay said …

    I mean, okay, whatever. It’s how we roll.

  127. on 27 Oct 2012 at 8:10 pm 127.Anonymous said …

    Reverend Prime as one ordained minister to the other – I have a Doctorate in Divinity from Universal Life Church – I would appreciate your theological insight on three matters.

    1) How can Pastafarians know that His Noodly Appendage is the Truth when the bible offers concise answers such as PI=3, when modern science is unable to provide an exact answer to that question?

    2) Did the writers of the bible make their Shepard’s Pie with goat or lamb?

    3) Finally one where I am most confused. A member of my congregation asked me the following, I wonder how you would respond: “Our daughter has come out as a Lesbian. She wishes to get married to her girlfriend and live in sin under our roof. How should I punish her?”

    As I see it, (a) In Yahweh’s Big Book of Blunders the recommendation would seem to be to Stone her to Death. (b) Someone on the internet – so it must be true – said we should metaphorically stone her, presumably with metaphorical stones to a metaphorical death – whatever that may be. metaphorically of course. (c) I don’t see anywhere where his Noodly Appendage lays out cruel and inhumane treatment so I am unsure what to answer from the Pastafarian doctrine. Please advise.

  128. on 28 Oct 2012 at 12:24 am 128.JALindsay said …

    My pleasure

    1. We don’t. We also don’t care. The legislature of the great state of Indiana once tried to define PI=4 to make all calculations easier, but the FSM and/or better sense stopped them. RAmen.

    2. A mixture of both, but the secret ingredient was just a little bit of tarragon.

    3. “Sin” is to be encouraged, unless it is the mixing of conflicting carbohydrates. I don’t see it as being unacceptable, though, to reinterpret Yahweh’s old scripture correctly by occasionally throwing meatballs to the young lovers.

  129. on 29 Oct 2012 at 3:59 am 129.The messenger said …

    God is real.

  130. on 30 Oct 2012 at 4:40 am 130.gingin said …

    Tell him to cover his ass well when he sleeps, so that he doesn’t see such dreams.

  131. on 05 Nov 2012 at 10:08 pm 131.MattD said …

    7.CastBound said

    Well, who cares, really?

  132. on 13 Nov 2012 at 12:57 pm 132.Lou(DFW) said …

    Science on the Brink of Death:

    Sam Harris’ further thoughts on the so-called “near death experience:”

    http://bit.ly/VZrohz

  133. on 14 Nov 2012 at 12:04 am 133.Anonymous said …

    I just discovered who god is
    ME

    Proof>>When I was praying,I discovered I was talking to myself…

  134. on 20 Nov 2012 at 4:46 am 134.In Him said …

    I find it very interesting that you have said that there is not any evidence to prove Christianity. Wether you agree with what He said or not from a strictly scientific view you absolutely can not deny that Jesus Christ walked this Earth. Wether you believe what He said was true or not is a decision only you can make. However the facts that you will not have anything to do with is those that come from the Bible. Eleven of the disciples were faced with horrid deaths all of which could have been avoided if they renounced their faith. In any analytical way you want to look at it it does not make sense for eleven people who walked with Christ to die for a lie. They were first hand witnesses to this and they believed it. The evidivence the Bible produces alone and to have held up in its entirety for more than two thousand years should speak for itself. Although they have tried science can not prove it wrong. I intend no to be condesending and hope this to be useful.

  135. on 08 Dec 2012 at 9:23 am 135.shipdog7 said …

    If God is good? And God controls the universe? Then why did those people have to die by the “Batman” murderer. Columbine? What did they do wrong. Why weren’t they protected by the big boss in the sky. Where were their Angels? “It is just God’s way” you answer. In other words you don’t have an answer for it. When I hear that there was only one survivor in a plane crash. 250 perished. You hear things like….God was looking over her. Well why wasn’t God looking over the other 250? Were they evil? Did the survivor have other things here on earth to learn from before he/she died? How about the women and children who didn’t survive? “It is just God’s way”? REALLY?

  136. on 17 Dec 2012 at 5:07 am 136.In Him said …

    http://www.compellingtruth.org/bad-things-good-people.html
    The short answer to this difficult question is “there are no good people.” Jesus said it best when He said, “No one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18). There are only two kinds of people: bad people and bad people who have been redeemed. Most would agree that bad people deserve to have bad things happen to them. In fact, most bad people don’t have nearly enough bad things happening to them. As for the other group, bad people who have been redeemed by God, they still have bad things happen to them because we live in a bad place—a fallen, sin-cursed world.

    The Bible tells us that all humans are, by nature, sinful and condemned and that no one is good (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8). Romans 3:10-18 clearly states the truth about people: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” When we think we deserve to escape the “bad things,” we deny the fact that every second we are alive and every breath we take is only by the grace and mercy of God, who restrains Himself from giving us what we deserve, eternal hell in the lake of fire.

    So the real question is “Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people?” Romans 5:8 gives the answer, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” In spite of the evil, wicked, sinful nature of the people of this world, and because of it, God provided a way to escape the penalty for our sins (Romans 6:23). God provided Jesus Christ to save all those who would ever believe in Him as their Savior (John 3:16; Romans 10:9), and by His blood, we are forgiven and receive an eternal home in heaven (Romans 8:1). By this miracle, bad people receive an entirely new nature and become good people because they exchange their sin for the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).

    But God still allows bad things to happen to these redeemed people for His reasons, whether or not we understand them. The Psalmist tells us “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

  137. on 18 Dec 2012 at 4:46 am 137.Gernod Swoboda said …

    Lesson 101 for converting Atheists to a God.
    (Not related to any existing comments) :

    The basics:
    Just a few comments from a Christian and believer in a loving God. I think this website is great in that it allows believers of God to understand the somewhat closed mindsets of Atheists.
    What I tend to see on an ongoing basis on this website is the questions of, “well if God is this, then why does he allow that “. “If he is a loving God then why are their natural disasters , famine etc etc .” No one has the answers to any of these questions. Yes its unfair and not conducive to what God is supposed to represent, giving rise to the question whether there is a God. Your website says no, its all an illusion.
    My take is that Atheism is an illusion, and unless the following few basic elementary questions can be answered, (which are not addressed anywhere on you website), in a rational manner and without answering the my questions with more questions, im not convinced that there is no god. So I ask that you convince me in a solid, non emotional fashion.
    Question 1:
    Our world and universe consist of matter, anti-matter, protons, electrons etc, etc, all consisting of energy, converted into matter, and all occupying space.
    We live in a 4 dimensioned world consisting of volume ( 3 dimensions) and time (the 4th dimension) . This allows us to experience what we know as life.
    The simple question I pose to you is the following: How did space, matter/energy and time , all come about? As it was not always there.
    Question 2:
    The only rational answer to Question 1 is that something (a creator called God) created it all. There is no alternative answer.
    The second question is therefore: Why was it created?
    We are not in the position to answer this rationally, as we have absolutely no understanding of the purpose behind creation as we know it without accepting some form of rational.
    Was the dude bored, and just did it because there was nothing else to do, or did he do all of this for his own satisfaction. Should we not regard this creator with some form of respect and awe, and accept that he created this universe for his pleasure. (however twisted this may sound, and given the stuffed up world we find ourselves in through our own doing) .

    Conclusion
    Question 1 still stands, answer it rationally and ill become an atheist.
    Question 2 to be discussed once question 1 is answered logically by an Atheist.

  138. on 18 Dec 2012 at 8:13 am 138.Severin said …

    #137
    “There is no alternative answer.”

    Yes there is.

    You say that BEFORE the unieverse was created, SOMETHING existed (a creator called god).
    Then that “something” got the idea to create the universe, and he (she, it?) did it.

    If SOMETHING existed without having been created (god), then it was, obviously, POSSIBLE that SOMETHING exists that was NOT created.

    Matter/energy?
    Why not?

  139. on 18 Dec 2012 at 8:28 am 139.Severin said …

    #137
    “As it (universe) was not always there.”

    But it WAS! Who and when said it was not?

    Big bang was NOT the beginning of the univere. SOMETHING “exploded” then, not NOTHING.
    That “something” was matter/energy. It was only, at that moment, in different, unstable form.
    Who knws how many “big bangs” already happened in the universe. Maybe countless.

    If you claim that SOMETHING can exist without “creation”, matter/energy perfectly fits you own claim.
    Namely, we can see matter/energy, observe it, measure it, predict its behavior, …
    We can’t see, obsrve, measure, any god.

  140. on 18 Dec 2012 at 8:45 am 140.Severin said …

    #137
    “Why was it (universe) created?

    It was not created, so it is the wrong question.

    In case it was not the wrong question, it is YOU who have to tell us the reason WHY god created universe.

    I have no idea.

    Why did god create billions of galaxies?

    The question “why” implies the PURPOSE, so: What is the purpoe of existence of the planet 16 Cyg B b?
    WHY was it created?

    Wrong question, I told you, unless you have answers.

  141. on 18 Dec 2012 at 9:39 am 141.Severin said …

    #136
    “there are no good people.”

    http://tinyurl.com/c2nehst
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI6_nZV8SZE

    Who, and by what criteria could anyone call those creatures bad?

    How are they “bad”?

  142. on 18 Dec 2012 at 1:13 pm 142.Lou(DFW) said …

    137.Gernod Swoboda said …

    “My take is that Atheism [sic] is an illusion,”

    We don’t care what your “take” is. We only care about what evidence you can provide for your imaginary god. Surprise – you didn’t provide any.

    “Atheism” [sic] isn’t really an “ism.” It’s simply the rejection or disbelief of an actual “ism” – theism.

    Your argument is a propositional fallacy with some god of the gaps arguments mixed in.

    An illusion is the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled. Therefore, “Atheism” [sic] cannot in anyway be an illusion.

    Which is an illusion? Santa Claus or disbelief in Santa Claus?

    Disbelief in something that actually exists is known as denial. You haven’t shown that your imaginary god actually exists.

    “unless the following few basic elementary questions can be answered, (which are not addressed anywhere on you website),”

    That’s because those questions are not about god nor religion. That’s what the site is about. How difficult is that for you to understand?

    “Question 1 still stands, answer it rationally and ill become an atheist.”

    If your question 1 is valid, then the obvious question to anyone of intelligence that must be asked before your question 1 can be answered is – from where did your imaginary god originate? So when YOU answer the actual question 1, then we’ll proceed with your other questions, but only to the extent that they relate to god and religion.

  143. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:09 pm 143.Lou(DFW) said …

    137.Gernod Swoboda said …

    “What I tend to see on an ongoing basis on this website is the questions of, “well if God is this, then why does he allow that “. “If he is a loving God then why are their natural disasters , famine etc etc .” No one has the answers to any of these questions.”

    This is a typical theist cop-out. He claims that those questions about his imaginary god can’t be answered, but then he demands that you answer his even more difficult to answer questions:

    “1. How did space, matter/energy and time , all come about? The only rational answer to Question 1 is that something (a creator called God) created it all. There is no alternative answer.”

    Even though he has absolutely no evidence to support that claim or that his imaginary god exists.

    “2.Why was it created?”

    Why is irrelevant to how.

    This is part of the theists delusion – I don’t have to answer questions about my unsubstantiated assertions, but you MUST answer my questions about your refusal to accept them.

  144. on 18 Dec 2012 at 3:18 pm 144.Lou(DFW) said …

    137.Gernod Swoboda said …

    “The only rational answer to Question 1 is that something (a creator called God) created it all. There is no alternative answer.”

    “well if God is this, then why does he allow that “. “If he is a loving God then why are their natural disasters , famine etc etc .” No one has the answers to any of these questions.”

    Yes, we do – “The only rational answer” is that your imaginary god does not exist because “There is no alternative answer.”

  145. on 18 Dec 2012 at 5:12 pm 145.Anonymous said …

    “This is part of the theists delusion – I don’t have to answer questions about my unsubstantiated assertions, but you MUST answer my questions about your refusal to accept them”.

    Perfectly put. Unfortunately, their brain-washing is such that they are unable to think in a way that allows them to intellectually appreciate their double standard.

    In this way they feel to make up any kind of shit and say “well, you can’t prove me wrong and if you do, I’ll just make up some even more wilder shit and more after that”. That way I can just say that’s the mystery of my imaginary friend; only they call it a god.

    This continued self-reinforcement of teh crazy is all part of the conditioning that keeps the religious from acknowledging reality.

  146. on 18 Dec 2012 at 7:50 pm 146.DPK said …

    The completely openminded 137.Gernod Swoboda said …
    “The only rational answer to Question 1 is that something (a creator called God) created it all. There is no alternative answer.”

    Now, you ask for any reasonable explanations and then set a condition that you will accept no answer except one that includes your god.
    First, this position is no different from a primitive standing in awe of a volcano and declaring that fire and lava does not just spew forth from dirt… something must cause it and that something must be a god, an angry one at that.
    Second, as has been already pointed out to you, your contention that the universe requires a creator is immediately contradicted because you postulate a creator which must be even more complex and more powerful, which exists without a creator. As such you contradict your own axiom. So your argument fails.
    Third, the fact that no one definitively “knows” how the universe began does not mean that you therefore do, nor that you get to make up a wild ass claim and declare that there is “no alternative answer”.
    There are many possible hypotheses presently being examined that may explain the origin of the universe, and none of them invoke a magical god. Can any of them be proven? Maybe, maybe not. But the declaration of magical gods as the cause of every other natural phenomena in human history has proven false. Why would you expect this last holdout for your creator god to be any different?

  147. on 18 Dec 2012 at 8:28 pm 147.40 Year Atheist said …

    The idea is current that Atheism is not a positive assertion. This is in response to the demand for them to produce evidence or logic to back up their claims, just as that demand is made for Philosophical Materialists to back up their claims. In other words, their denial is a dodge, an intellectual malfeasance in order to avoid ownership, because they cannot produce either evidence or logic in support of their belief system.

    Here is a look at real Atheism, and a real Atheist with the intellectual stones to say exactly what she believes, honestly and without dissembling, contrary to the approach of many or even most Atheists today:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/atheism_christian_apologetics/4776633315/

    It remains perfectly acceptable to request that she provide proof for these statements, evidence for these positions of a type which satisfies her underlying Materialist requirements for knowledge.

  148. on 18 Dec 2012 at 8:43 pm 148.Anonymous said …

    Oh, look, the perfectly dreary 40YAsshole who closed his own blog when he couldn’t win an argument, even when though he banned commentators and deleted comments that stumped him, returns with yet-another cowardly hit-and-run post.

    Yawn. Wake us up Stan when you’re prepared to defend your own assertions without resorting to censorship.

  149. on 18 Dec 2012 at 9:09 pm 149.Lou(DFW) said …

    147.40 Year Asshole said …

    First of all, 40YAH is ignoring the big fat elephant in the room – the theist assertion that god exists – an assertion for which he has no “proof.” His entire comment is merely another weak attempt to divert attention from that fact.

    Her alleged “positive assertion” isn’t an assertion at all. She is merely disputing the theist “positive assertion.” Atheists didn’t suddenly appear one day and assert that there is only nature. It was only made as a rejection that there is more – super-nature. Unless you show us that there is something beyond the “natural world,” then her assertion is acceptable without “proof” because it is only, in effect, a rejection of the theist “positive assertion.”

    Example: You go to the doctor with a cough, and without any examination or tests your doctor asserts “you have lung cancer,” but the nurse says “no, it’s just a cough.” Is the nurse’s comment a “positive assertion” or simply a rejection of the doctor’s assertion? It’s obvious you have a cough, the nurse doesn’t have to prove it. Her comment is not a “positive assertion.” 40YAH, are you going to subject yourself to chemo, radiation, or lung removal without any proof? Or are you going to have faith in your doctor and accept the treatments on his word?

    “It remains perfectly acceptable to request that she provide proof for these statements, evidence for these positions of a type which satisfies her underlying Materialist requirements for knowledge.”

    There are/is no leprchaauns, Roman gods, Greek gods, volcano gods, Santa Claus, nor Tooth Fairy. But, according to 40YAH, it’s “perfectly acceptable to request” proof for that.

    No matter how many times theists here attempt to redefine the word atheist, they can’t do it.

    And no matter how many times they attempt to avoid the fact that they have no evidence for their imaginary god, they can’t.

  150. on 18 Dec 2012 at 9:11 pm 150.Lou(DFW) said …

    Correction: leprechauns

  151. on 18 Dec 2012 at 10:00 pm 151.alex said …

    “The idea is current that Atheism is not a positive assertion.”

    When an atheist’s loved one dies, the crying is real because of the finality and that heaven is bullshit. If heaven is real, why don’t I see theists rejoice and/or dance around because their dead one is going to eternal paradise?

    Assert that.

  152. on 18 Dec 2012 at 11:50 pm 152.The messenger said …

    on 18 Dec 2012 at 9:33 pm 280.The messenger said …
    on 18 Dec 2012 at 12:00 am 269.The messenger said …
    Lou(DPK), read this.
    The spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call “consciousness.” The E. coli bacteria that flooded his brain during his illness made sure of that. His doctor told him that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact.”[5]
    That was a quote from the website page that I got the information from.
    As you can see, the test that you keep asking about does exist and if you wish to learn more about the brain I suggest that you get a new one first because your current brain does not seem to work.
    Alexander also responded, “I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory.”[6]

  153. on 19 Dec 2012 at 1:51 am 153.Xenon said …

    40 YA

    You got at least admire her for being honest. I love her shoes. I think they are right out of the 60s.

  154. on 19 Dec 2012 at 12:17 pm 154.Lou(DFW) said …

    153.Xenonsense said after suddenly appearing from hiding after his last drubbing here, if only to converse with himself as 40YAH…

    “40 YA
    You got at least admire her for being honest.”

    Something that can’t be said about you.

    “I love her shoes.”

    I don’t doubt it.

    “I think they are right out of the 60s.”

    Oh, how touching, it reminds you of your drag-queen days?

  155. on 19 Dec 2012 at 12:21 pm 155.Lou(DFW) said …

    152.The messenger said …

    “As you can see, the test that you keep asking about does exist and if you wish to learn more about the brain I suggest that you get a new one first because your current brain does not seem to work.”

    Translation: “There is no such test, even after I scoured the web looking for evidence of one. Because I can’t find it, rather than admit that I’m wrong, the onus is now upon you to find it. And because I’m inept, I’ll hurl a personal insult at you just to make me feel better about myself.”

  156. on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:24 am 156.Gernod Swoboda said …

    #139

    If you claim that SOMETHING can exist without “creation”, matter/energy perfectly fits you own claim.
    Namely, we can see matter/energy, observe it, measure it, predict its behavior, …
    We can’t see, obsrve, measure, any god.

    MY TAKE

    THanks for the feedback and I got jist (I think,) But…. what if there is more to this 4 x dimensional world that we experience. We experience “time” at the moment it occurs. Once its past its gone, and we cant experience it before it arrives.

    What, (a big what) if there are more dimensions to life as we know it, that can only be entered into once our “time” dimension is terminated. ie. an afterlife in a different “Zone”. ( in a place/dimension where time does not exist)

    Christanity teaches of a spiritual, after life world, in the company of a creator. A creator that as you said we cant see, observe, measure etc. A world filled with all sorts of unimaginabe stuff that is weird as anything you read in fairytale stories. This other dimesioned world has the creator as its leader

    Is it conceivable that this creator could allow us to feel his presence in our world.

    We as Christians, state that we can feel his presence. ( and yes, I know you will say its all in the mind).

    In essence what I am saying is that I believe that there is much more to our life experience than what we see, hear, touch and find tangible.
    Furthermore, there is so much more to understand in life than what science produces, as the further we delve into quantum physics and the more we know, the less we understand.

    Our simple minds cannot comprehend the complexities of this universe and life in general and to use this non understanding as a rationale to deny the possible existence of God is in my mind shortsighted. Your comments ??

  157. on 20 Dec 2012 at 4:32 am 157.In Him said …

    http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
    I think this website provides enough evidence to prove God exists, but be careful not to be closed minded because if you are wrong in the fact that there is no God you are sending yourself to eternal punishment so don’t take this lightly. But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God’s existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God. On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, “You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you.” Before you look at the facts surrounding God’s existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him?

  158. on 20 Dec 2012 at 4:38 am 158.Anonymous said …

    Comments – argument from ignorance and god of the gaps. Ways to keep your hopes alive even though they are without foundation.

    Who gives a fuck about all your “what if” ramblings.

    We could say “well, perhaps the universe was created by a spotted invisible Unicorn” and it has as much change of being correct as does your nonsense.

  159. on 20 Dec 2012 at 4:41 am 159.The messenger said …

    on 20 Dec 2012 at 2:50 am 288.The messenger said … Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    I do not think that there is a specific name for the test that was done to Mr. Eben’s brain durring his coma, but based on the information that I have gatherd on the subject I do believe that there was a test done on his brain.
    I believe this to be true because of the amount of sources that I have found that all mention a test.

  160. on 20 Dec 2012 at 5:12 am 160.In Him said …

    158 What are you saying had no foundation may I ask? I also don’t understand what you meant by rambling what if statements. Science itself uses if this happens then this will happen as a basic hypothesis to test something doesn’t it?

  161. on 20 Dec 2012 at 8:34 am 161.Severin said …

    #156
    The theory of strings operates with much more than 4 dimensions, 11 of them, I think.

    It does not prove existence of god, anyway. We are LEARNING, and our “simple minds” passed a long way from discovering the earth was not flat, through understanding and explaining ligtning, deseases, atom, …

    If god is something you feel, and many people don’t, AND many people feel existence of DIFFERENT GODS, than god is obviously not anything objective. For me, it is obviously immagination.

    I do not say there is no god, but everything, including logic, is against that idea. Your “what if” is equal to my “what if”, so: what if matter/energy was not created, but “just existed” and transformed from one form to another through eternity?

    What I can never understand is connecting a possible creator of the universe with lives of human beings on this poor small earth.
    If you recognize the big bang, for example, and take it as god’s deed, how can you then be a Christian?
    Christianity stands on Bible and Bible alone, no other support, and Bible has nothing to do with big bang and multidimensional universe.
    If a god created universe, it was not a Christian god, it is obvious. That one had no idea about physics, he used his word and dirt as “cration” tools. He was illiterate.
    And IF a god existed and created this very universe, that is so enormeously big, and so enormeously complex, I have a few questions for him (or for you):
    1. WHY? WHY did god bother to make billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each?
    2. If he did it anyway, this deed of him is SO tremedeous, that I can not imagine he had interest in whom am I sleeping with, and whether or not a young lady is a wirgin when she marries. The idea that THAT god, who created THIS universe, some 13.7 billion years ago, came some 6000 years ago back to earth to do something with bronze age people, is ridiculous. Absolutely unacceptable, unimaginable.
    A god able to give existence to billions of supernovas, comes to earth to enjoy the smell of roasted meat and to give people some rules carved in stone plates?
    Really ridiculous!

    So, you believe anyhing you please, BUT, if you want me to believe the same, much more than just your “feeling” is necessary to persuade me.
    Some evidences, for example.

    Please have in mind that I only DO NOT BELIEVE there is god, and never claim he (it?) does not exist.
    Maybe he (it) does, but that has nothing to do with me, unless he, or someone else, proves, or shows me he (it) has.

  162. on 20 Dec 2012 at 9:24 am 162.The messenger said …

    159.Severin, the Christian God, the Jewish God, and the Islamic God are all the same person.

    All of those religions together is the largest present age of people in this world.

    There are very few people who do not worship the one true God.

  163. on 20 Dec 2012 at 11:52 am 163.Anonymous said …

    Gernod, your take is exactly backwards from how science operates.

    You have taken a conclusion and now you are trying to cherry-pick and force-fit your vague misunderstandings of things that you do not understand into your wishes. That is not science, that is desperation.

  164. on 20 Dec 2012 at 11:55 am 164.Lou(DFW) said …

    159.The messenger said …

    “I do not think that there is a specific name for the test that was done to Mr. Eben’s brain durring his coma, but based on the information that I have gatherd on the subject I do believe that there was a test done on his brain.
    I believe this to be true because of the amount of sources that I have found that all mention a test.”

    I didn’t ask yo what you believe. What you believe is irrelevant.

    Thank you for admitting that there is no such test that can determine which memories are created by reality or by dreams/hallucination. Your retraction of that claim is accepted.

    What you “believe” is not not only not evidence of your claim, but is evidence that your claim was false.

  165. on 20 Dec 2012 at 11:59 am 165.Lou(DFW) said …

    162.The messenger said …

    “159.Severin, the Christian God, the Jewish God, and the Islamic God are all the same person.”

    EXACTLY! They are all imaginary.

  166. on 20 Dec 2012 at 12:01 pm 166.Lou(DFW) said …

    160.In Him said …

    “Science itself uses if this happens then this will happen as a basic hypothesis to test something doesn’t it?”

    No.

    Now, do you have any actual evidence for your imaginary god or only “what ifs?”

  167. on 21 Dec 2012 at 3:52 pm 167.In Him said …

    Speaking in just evidence the Bible is the most accurate and reliable book known to man and has stood in its entirety for over 2000 years. The Earth itself testifies to God. The specific design of everything, the beauty, space, billions of galaxies. The principle of moral truths or the fact that we inherently know the difference from right and wrong. These morals were not man made. The principal of love itself and the feelings we experience as humans testify to a loving God who created humans in his image as we are the only creatures to experience this. The complexity of the human eye and DNA is astonishing. The have parts that are self duplicating and require each other to function at all, making it an impossibility to have evolved. When you find a pocket watch on the ground in the woods you don’t wonder how long it took for the woods to produce that you know it was created by an intelligent designer. The universe is that woods and this earth is that pocket watch. Mathematically, scientifically, and philisophicially there just is no other way. Not even an eternal amount of time could have produced all of the chances to get us here the way we are, only a loving all powerful all knowing God who I am proud to say I serve could do that. And please check these facts for yourself you might be supprised what you find with an open mind.

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