Feed on Posts or Comments 25 June 2017

Christianity Thomas on 24 Apr 2012 12:46 am

Where is the Christian Moral Code?

This article makes a statement about Christian morals:

Without God there can be no good

The statement:

In their attempt to argue that effective and binding codes can be developed without a deity, atheists often mistake inferior codes – “common decency” – for absolute moral systems.

The Golden Rule, or doing as you would be done by, is such a code. But the fact that men can arrive at the Golden Rule without religion does not mean that man can arrive at the Christian moral code without religion.

Christianity requires much more, and above all does not expect to see charity returned. To love thy neighbour as thyself is a far greater and more complicated obligation, requiring a positive effort to seek the good of others, often in secret, sometimes at great cost and always without reward. Its most powerful expression is summed up in the words, “Great love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

Two questions must be asked:

  1. Where in the Bible, or anywhere, is there a succinct, complete description of the Christian Moral Code?
  2. Do all Christians abide by it? Do even half? One tenth? Less?

Christians, care to answer?

1,140 Responses to “Where is the Christian Moral Code?”

  1. on 15 Nov 2016 at 10:42 am 1.steel building erectors said …

    steel building erectors

    Find here the best Construction Management now in stock plus at great prices now!

  2. on 16 Nov 2016 at 1:38 am 2.clock building kit said …

    clock building kit

    Get the greatest clock Inserts videos that are available and on sale now!

  3. on 26 Nov 2016 at 6:10 pm 3.school bell system said …

    school bell system

    Get the best wireless public address system that’s in stock plus currently available today!

  4. on 29 Nov 2016 at 9:40 am 4.public address speakers said …

    public address speakers

    See the best public announcement speakers currently available and reasonably priced today!

  5. on 29 Nov 2016 at 2:48 pm 5.wireless buzzer alarm said …

    wireless buzzer alarm

    See the top synchronized clocks that is available and reasonably priced today!

  6. on 29 Nov 2016 at 9:57 pm 6.flashlight led said …

    flashlight led

    Get the top Best led Flashlight that is available and on sale today!

  7. on 30 Nov 2016 at 12:33 am 7.best flashlight said …

    best flashlight

    Find the best torch lite now now in stock plus on sale today!

  8. on 30 Nov 2016 at 1:13 pm 8.clock building kit said …

    clock building kit

    Find the best metall wall dials now in stock and at great prices today!

  9. on 01 Dec 2016 at 6:07 am 9.Cree LED Flashlights said …

    Cree LED Flashlights

    Find here the brightest tactical cree led flashlight that’s now in stock plus on sale today!

  10. on 01 Dec 2016 at 6:26 am 10.school pa system said …

    school pa system

    Find here top selling synchronized clock system that’s available plus currently available today!

  11. on 02 Dec 2016 at 7:39 pm 11.brightest led flashlight said …

    brightest led flashlight

    Find here the brightest brightest flashlights that is in stock and at the best cost today!

  12. on 08 Dec 2016 at 12:30 am 12.clock kit manufacturer said …

    clock kit manufacturer

    Get the top clock instructions that are in stock and on sale today!

  13. on 08 Dec 2016 at 11:48 pm 13.brightest tactical flashlight said …

    brightest tactical flashlight

    See the best Best led Flashlight that’s in stock plus at great cost today!

  14. on 09 Dec 2016 at 9:54 am 14.cree led tactical flashlight said …

    cree led tactical flashlight

    Find the greatest Cree flashlight that’s now in stock and at the best cost today!

  15. on 10 Dec 2016 at 7:48 pm 15.clock movements said …

    clock movements

    See top selling metal clock dials that are in stock and at the best price today!

  16. on 11 Dec 2016 at 4:58 am 16.specialized building construction said …

    specialized building construction

    Find top metal building contractors currently in stock plus at the best price today!

  17. on 14 Dec 2016 at 12:12 am 17.wall clock kits said …

    wall clock kits

    See top selling antiques clock Repair that’s now in stock and on sale today!

  18. on 14 Dec 2016 at 11:31 pm 18.design build construction firms said …

    design build construction firms

    Get top quality general contractor that’s available plus at great prices today!

  19. on 16 Dec 2016 at 8:20 am 19.metal building erectors said …

    metal building erectors

    Get professional Tenant Improvement that’s in stock plus on sale today!

  20. on 17 Dec 2016 at 10:11 pm 20.ledflashlight said …

    ledflashlight

    Find the brightest Cree led Flashlight currently available and reasonably priced today!

  21. on 19 Dec 2016 at 4:30 pm 21.brightest flashlights said …

    brightest flashlights

    See the brightest brightest tactical flashlight that’s in stock and at the best cost today!

  22. on 20 Dec 2016 at 6:54 am 22.clock hands said …

    clock hands

    See the greatest high torque motors that are in stock plus at the best price today!

  23. on 22 Dec 2016 at 7:16 pm 23.brightest flashlights said …

    brightest flashlights

    Get the brightest lumens flashlight now in stock plus on sale today!

  24. on 24 Dec 2016 at 5:27 am 24.simon cree led flashlight said …

    simon cree led flashlight

    See the top brightest led flashlight currently now in stock and at the best cost today!

  25. on 25 Dec 2016 at 4:55 pm 25.replacement parts for battery operated clocks said …

    replacement parts for battery operated clocks

    Find the greatest clock parts suppliers currently now in stock plus on sale today!

  26. on 01 Jan 2017 at 4:38 pm 26.Cree led Flashlight said …

    Cree led Flashlight

    Get the top simon cree led flashlight currently in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  27. on 02 Jan 2017 at 4:01 am 27.wireless buzzer system for classroom said …

    wireless buzzer system for classroom

    Find the greatest wireless pa system that’s now in stock and reasonably priced today!

  28. on 09 Jan 2017 at 3:34 pm 28.metal building erectors said …

    metal building erectors

    Get top quality building erectors that’s in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  29. on 11 Jan 2017 at 2:31 pm 29.tactical cree led flashlight said …

    tactical cree led flashlight

    See the brightest Cree Flashlights currently now in stock plus at the best cost today!

  30. on 13 Jan 2017 at 12:31 am 30.successful internet marketing strategies said …

    successful internet marketing strategies

    Find the greatest info on Instagram Marketing that’s currently available and at the best cost today!

  31. on 13 Jan 2017 at 7:25 am 31.clock mechanism kit said …

    clock mechanism kit

    Find the top crystal dial face currently available and on sale today!

  32. on 29 Jan 2017 at 4:32 am 32.traffic generation strategies said …

    traffic generation strategies

    Get the brightest instruction on Domain Authority that’s online and at the best cost today!

  33. on 30 Jan 2017 at 2:51 pm 33.tenant improvements construction said …

    tenant improvements construction

    See top quality steel building erector that’s now in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  34. on 31 Jan 2017 at 2:55 pm 34.instagram marketing strategy said …

    instagram marketing strategy

    See the top information on Facebook Viral Content that’s available plus currently available today!

  35. on 01 Feb 2017 at 9:21 am 35.how to boost domain authority said …

    how to boost domain authority

    Find the greatest info on Instagram Traffic that is currently available plus free today!

  36. on 02 Feb 2017 at 4:28 pm 36.lumens flashlight said …

    lumens flashlight

    Find the greatest Cree Flashlights now in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  37. on 04 Feb 2017 at 10:07 am 37.online marketing diy said …

    online marketing diy

    Find the greatest information on diy online marketing currently currently available and reasonably priced today!

  38. on 06 Feb 2017 at 2:26 pm 38.design build firms said …

    design build firms

    Find top quality building erectors that’s available and at great prices today!

  39. on 12 Feb 2017 at 3:56 pm 39.flashlight led said …

    flashlight led

    Find the greatest Flashlight now in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  40. on 12 Feb 2017 at 6:28 pm 40.industrial wireless pa system said …

    industrial wireless pa system

    Get the greatest wireless buzzer system suppliers that is available and at great prices today!

  41. on 13 Feb 2017 at 7:25 pm 41.omaha top seo companies said …

    omaha top seo companies

    Find here the top information on omaha online marketing now online and free today!

  42. on 14 Feb 2017 at 10:31 am 42.seo agencies said …

    seo agencies

    Find here the greatest information on seo agencies that’s currently available plus on sale today!

  43. on 16 Feb 2017 at 2:57 pm 43.clock parts said …

    clock parts

    Find the top clock making parts currently in stock plus at great prices today!

  44. on 16 Feb 2017 at 3:23 pm 44.School bell system said …

    School bell system

    Find here the top school pa system that’s now in stock plus at the best price today!

  45. on 22 Feb 2017 at 2:14 am 45.synchronized clock system said …

    synchronized clock system

    Find top selling school bell system now available and at the best price today!

  46. on 22 Feb 2017 at 1:23 pm 46.Clock kit parts said …

    Clock kit parts

    Find here top selling high torque pendulum movements that are in stock and currently on sale today!

  47. on 23 Feb 2017 at 3:34 pm 47.school p a system said …

    school p a system

    Find the greatest school public address system that is available and currently available today!

  48. on 23 Feb 2017 at 3:53 pm 48.clock building kit said …

    clock building kit

    Get the best large display dials currently now in stock and at the best price today!

  49. on 26 Feb 2017 at 2:52 pm 49.school bell systems said …

    school bell systems

    Get top selling wireless pa system that’s available plus at great prices today!

  50. on 27 Feb 2017 at 1:59 pm 50.public address speakers said …

    public address speakers

    See top selling school pa system that’s available and at the best price today!

  51. on 28 Feb 2017 at 10:31 am 51.cree led tactical flashlight said …

    cree led tactical flashlight

    Get the top Cree Flashlights now available and reasonably priced today!

  52. on 04 Mar 2017 at 11:07 am 52.omaha seo consultant said …

    omaha seo consultant

    Find here the top info on omaha seo strategy that’s currently available plus at great cost today!

  53. on 04 Mar 2017 at 7:23 pm 53.diy clock kit said …

    diy clock kit

    Get the best weather clock plastic dial currently in stock plus on sale today!

  54. on 05 Mar 2017 at 7:59 pm 54.browse this site said …

    browse this site

    Find the top clock kits currently now in stock plus at the best price today!

  55. on 05 Mar 2017 at 9:34 pm 55.clock inserts said …

    clock inserts

    Get the greatest clock mechanisms currently available plus at the best price today!

  56. on 06 Mar 2017 at 2:30 am 56.slideshare pinterest said …

    slideshare pinterest

    Find here the greatest instruction on influencer marketing strategy that is available and at the best cost today!

  57. on 06 Mar 2017 at 11:35 pm 57.china sourcing solutions said …

    china sourcing solutions

    Get the best china sourcing agents that’s now in stock plus currently available today!

  58. on 07 Mar 2017 at 1:34 pm 58.Cree Flashlights said …

    Cree Flashlights

    Get the brightest torch light flashlight that’s available plus at great cost today!

  59. on 07 Mar 2017 at 4:24 pm 59.clock accessories said …

    clock accessories

    Find here the greatest clock building kit that are now in stock plus at great prices today!

  60. on 08 Mar 2017 at 3:05 am 60.how to find expired domains with traffic said …

    how to find expired domains with traffic

    See the top instruction on omaha seo that is online plus currently available today!

  61. on 10 Mar 2017 at 3:19 pm 61.china supplier said …

    china supplier

    Get professional china sourcing reports that’s in stock and currently available today!

  62. on 15 Mar 2017 at 6:29 pm 62.aa battery clock movement kits said …

    aa battery clock movement kits

    See the best check here currently available and at great prices today!

  63. on 18 Mar 2017 at 2:41 pm 63.simon cree led flashlight said …

    simon cree led flashlight

    Get the brightest torch lite currently now in stock plus on sale today!

  64. on 21 Mar 2017 at 7:50 pm 64.Cree Flashlights said …

    Cree Flashlights

    Get the greatest l e d Flashlight now available plus at great cost today!

  65. on 22 Mar 2017 at 10:21 am 65.clock hands said …

    clock hands

    Find top selling replacement parts for battery operated clocks that are now in stock and on sale today!

  66. on 24 Mar 2017 at 4:15 am 66.bright led flashlights said …

    bright led flashlights

    Find the brightest 200 lumens flashlight currently in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  67. on 25 Mar 2017 at 8:26 pm 67.bulk clock movement kits said …

    bulk clock movement kits

    Get the best clock parts that are in stock and currently on sale now!

  68. on 27 Mar 2017 at 8:27 pm 68.cree led tactical flashlight said …

    cree led tactical flashlight

    Get the best brightest led flashlights that’s now in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  69. on 31 Mar 2017 at 4:33 am 69.Cree LED Flashlights said …

    Cree LED Flashlights

    Find the top cree led tactical flashlight currently in stock plus at great cost today!

  70. on 03 Apr 2017 at 9:13 pm 70.best flashlight said …

    best flashlight

    See the brightest flashlight that’s in stock and at great cost today!

  71. on 05 Apr 2017 at 9:17 am 71.lumens flashlight said …

    lumens flashlight

    Find the greatest flashlight led now in stock and on sale today!

  72. on 08 Apr 2017 at 8:52 pm 72.clock movements said …

    clock movements

    Find here the top bulk clock movement kits currently in stock plus on sale today!

  73. on 09 Apr 2017 at 7:59 am 73.wholesale clock movements said …

    wholesale clock movements

    Find here the greatest clock mechanisms currently in stock plus at the best price now!

  74. on 13 Apr 2017 at 3:17 am 74.Clock kit parts said …

    Clock kit parts

    Find the greatest large clock kit that are available and on sale today!

  75. on 16 Apr 2017 at 4:08 am 75.battery clock mechanism replacement said …

    battery clock mechanism replacement

    See the brightest Clock kit parts now now in stock and reasonably priced now!

  76. on 17 Apr 2017 at 2:29 pm 76.school p a system said …

    school p a system

    Find here professional Click Home currently available plus at the best price today!

  77. on 19 Apr 2017 at 3:26 am 77.industrial wireless pa system said …

    industrial wireless pa system

    See top quality wireless pa system currently available plus at the best price today!

  78. on 20 Apr 2017 at 4:59 pm 78.browse around this web-site said …

    browse around this web-site

    Find here the brightest clock parts that are in stock plus reasonably priced now!

  79. on 21 Apr 2017 at 6:03 am 79.ti construction said …

    ti construction

    Get top quality metal building contractors that’s in stock plus reasonably priced today!

  80. on 22 Apr 2017 at 5:16 am 80.clock kit parts said …

    clock kit parts

    Find here the brightest clock kits that’s now in stock plus reasonably priced now!

  81. on 26 Apr 2017 at 1:50 am 81.browse around this web-site said …

    browse around this web-site

    Find the greatest Large clock kits now in stock and at the best price now!

  82. on 29 Apr 2017 at 7:30 pm 82.Dumonds table said …

    Dumonds table

    Find the best option for Dumonds dining room set currently now in stock and at great prices you can get now!

  83. on 30 Apr 2017 at 11:14 pm 83.industrial construction services said …

    industrial construction services

    Find the best Construction Management currently in stock plus at great prices today!

  84. on 01 May 2017 at 6:56 am 84.clock dials replacement said …

    clock dials replacement

    Find the top available square clock dials now now in stock in addition on sale you can get now!

  85. on 03 May 2017 at 12:01 am 85.design build contractors said …

    design build contractors

    Find top steel warehouse construction currently in stock plus on sale today!

  86. on 03 May 2017 at 4:41 am 86.Log Furniture said …

    Log Furniture

    Find the greatest new Custom Desk that’s now in stock and on sale you can get now!

  87. on 04 May 2017 at 2:49 pm 87.Reclaimed Wood Dining Table said …

    Reclaimed Wood Dining Table

    Find here the best new Wood Chair legs now now in stock in addition currently on sale you can get now!

  88. on 06 May 2017 at 11:37 am 88.clock hands said …

    clock hands

    See the best new square metal clock dials that’s now in stock plus currently on sale you can get now!

  89. on 06 May 2017 at 3:33 pm 89.Nakashima desk said …

    Nakashima desk

    Find here the top option for Handcrafted Furniture currently in stock in addition currently on sale you can get now!

  90. on 07 May 2017 at 8:36 pm 90.clock parts said …

    clock parts

    Find the greatest new square clock dials now in stock in addition at great prices you can get now!

  91. on 08 May 2017 at 12:06 am 91.Dumonds cabinet said …

    Dumonds cabinet

    Find here the top new Live Edge Furniture now now in stock in addition reasonably priced you can get now!

  92. on 08 May 2017 at 5:10 am 92.article source said …

    article source

    See top Metal Buildings currently now in stock plus at the best price today!

  93. on 11 May 2017 at 1:24 am 93.Go Here said …

    Go Here

    See the brightest available desk now available and currently on sale you can get now!

  94. on 16 May 2017 at 11:43 pm 94.school pa system said …

    school pa system

    Find here professional pa system for school that are now in stock plus currently available. Get it now!

  95. on 17 May 2017 at 11:41 pm 95.clock hardware said …

    clock hardware

    Find here the top option for square clock dials now now in stock in addition on sale you can get now!

  96. on 18 May 2017 at 2:20 am 96.The Messenger said …

    It is quite easy to see that the person who wrote this article has not done any research into Christian teaching, and is just regurgitating atheist propaganda rather than actually doing any research.

  97. on 18 May 2017 at 11:52 am 97.freddies_dead said …

    96.The Messenger said …
    It is quite easy to see that the person who wrote this article has not done any research into Christian teaching, and is just regurgitating atheist propaganda rather than actually doing any research.

    Did messy actually read this post? The article referenced was written from a Christian perspective.

  98. on 18 May 2017 at 5:32 pm 98.The Messenger said …

    97.freddies_dead, I in fact did read this post and noticed the clear lacking of any and all reliable sources.

    The cite that this post is using is an unreliable one, due to the fact that it is a protestant cite and written by people whom are extremely undedicated in real Christian interpretation of scripture.
    Also it must be noted that protestants reject a significant portion of the word of GOD, and they also have an extremely bad habit of ignoring the teachings and interpretations of the earliest Christians, mainly the Church Fathers.

    No offence to any protestants out there, but you guys misinterpret scripture a lot and make the rest of us look bad.

  99. on 18 May 2017 at 8:08 pm 99.The Messenger said …

    97.freddies_dead, I in fact did read this post and noticed the clear lacking of any and all reliable sources.
    The cite that this post is using is an unreliable one, due to the fact that it is a protestant cite and written by people whom are extremely uneducated in real Christian interpretation of scripture.
    Also it must be noted that protestants reject a significant portion of the word of GOD, and they also have an extremely bad habit of ignoring the teachings and interpretations of the earliest Christians, mainly the Church Fathers.
    No offence to any protestants out there, but you guys misinterpret scripture a lot and make the rest of us look bad.

  100. on 18 May 2017 at 11:44 pm 100.erectors said …

    erectors

    Find top steel building erectors that’s in stock plus on sale today!

  101. on 19 May 2017 at 1:19 am 101.The Messenger said …

    Part 1 of my response to 97.freddies_dead.

    “To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.”

    The destructiveness and intolerance that I was referring to was listed partially in the next paragraphs when I discussed the atrocities that atheists committed under atheistic governments.

    And further more I would like to make it clear that atheism does have one dogma, which is as you have stated the “rejection of theistic belief”.

    Although that dogma does not teach anyone to be “destructive or intolerant” it almost always leads to it. The reason that Atheism causes those things to happen is because when you remove “belief in GOD” that leads people to believe in a new GOD, which is themselves.

    As you have stated in your own words that “Stalin saw himself as God” and that “He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism”. Because Stalin saw himself as GOD he believed that he and he alone was the sole authority and ultimate authority on morality, and therefore saw nothing wrong with killing all of the people that I listed: The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

    The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of GOD man makes himself into GOD, and this happens to many Atheists, especially those with a large amount of political power, as we have seen in the twentieth century and we continue to see in this century.
    Here is a list of some the Atheists that decided to become GODs because they didn’t believe that there was a GOD, and when they did this innocent people suffered the consequences.
    1. Stalin, and every other dictator that Soviet Russia has ever had.
    2. Vladimir Lenin.
    3. Mussolini.
    4. Fidel Castro.
    5. Hitler.
    6. Joseph Goebbels
    7. Kim Jong-un and every other member of his family.
    8. Tojo.
    9. Mao Zedong.
    10. Mao Zedong.
    11. Hua Guofeng.
    12. Hu Yaobang.
    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.”
    First and foremost, Hitler was not a catholic in his adult life. Although he was raised as a catholic he completely abandoned the church and the religion when he joined the Nazi party. As evidence that Hitler was not a catholic, I will list many of the crimes that Hitler committed against Catholics, as well as documented evidence that pope pius xii himself was involved with the German resistance (which was lead and run by Christians, including the catholic Claus von Stauffenberg and his brother whom gave their lives trying to kill the Hitler) which tried multiple times to kill Hitler.
    1. The destruction of catholic churches throughout Europe, but mainly in Poland.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    2. The murder of thousands of priests, including those whom were sent to concentration camps.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    3. The torture and murder of Catholic Priest Antoni Zawistowski, along with over 2,720 other members of catholic clergy in Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp.
    Encyclopædia Britannica: Dachau, by Michael Berenbaum.
    Paul Berben; Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945.
    The Priests of Dachau by Ronald Rychlak.
    4. According to SS General Karl Wolff, while he was testifying at the Nuremberg Trials, stated that he was ordered, in person by Hitler, to kidnap the pope.
    John Hooper. 2005, January 17. “Hitler plot to kidnap the pope revealed”. The Guardian.
    5. Colonel Erwin von Lahousen, during the Nuremberg Trials, stated under oath that the Reich Main Security Office had been ordered by Hitler to make a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping the Pope and killing him.
    Zenit. June 16, 2009. “More Proof of Hitler’s Plot to Kill Pius XII Archived April 21, 2010, at the Wayback Machine.”.

    In conclusion, Hitler was not a catholic when he was leading Germany. He was a deadly enemy of all Catholics, including the foundation of the Catholic Church its self, the office of the Pope.

  102. on 19 May 2017 at 8:14 pm 102.clock kit said …

    clock kit

    Find the top option for square clock dials that are now in stock in addition at the best price you can get now!

  103. on 19 May 2017 at 8:37 pm 103.clock parts for crafts said …

    clock parts for crafts

    Get the greatest option for square clock dials now now in stock and on sale you can get now!

  104. on 19 May 2017 at 10:01 pm 104.steel building erectors said …

    steel building erectors

    Find top quality general contractor that’s available plus currently available today!

  105. on 20 May 2017 at 11:02 pm 105.erectors said …

    erectors

    Find here top quality steel warehouse construction that’s in stock and at the best price today!

  106. on 21 May 2017 at 1:02 pm 106.wireless buzzer system suppliers said …

    wireless buzzer system suppliers

    See top school p a system currently in stock in addition on sale. Get it now!

  107. on 21 May 2017 at 1:13 pm 107.clock movement kit said …

    clock movement kit

    Get the brightest option for clock parts currently now in stock plus at the best price you can get now!

  108. on 22 May 2017 at 7:17 am 108.school bell systems said …

    school bell systems

    Get professional school buzzer system that are now in stock plus at the best price. Get it now!

  109. on 22 May 2017 at 1:08 pm 109.freddies_dead said …

    98.The Messenger said …

    97.freddies_dead, I in fact did read this post and noticed the clear lacking of any and all reliable sources.

    What does this have to do with the “atheist propaganda” you mentioned – of which there was none?

    The cite that this post is using is an unreliable one, due to the fact that it is a protestant cite and written by people whom are extremely undedicated in real Christian interpretation of scripture.
    Also it must be noted that protestants reject a significant portion of the word of GOD, and they also have an extremely bad habit of ignoring the teachings and interpretations of the earliest Christians, mainly the Church Fathers.
    No offence to any protestants out there, but you guys misinterpret scripture a lot and make the rest of us look bad.

    Lol, I do love it when Christians make out other Christians aren’t really Christians because they interpret the same words differently. To the point of suggesting they’re actually more like atheists simply because they believe slightly differently.

    You’d think an all powerful God could have gotten its point across in a way in which there’d be no dissent. Everyone would come to the same interpretation. Of course there are no gods which explains the thousands of different factions all of whom have invented their own gods who just happen to believe as they do.

  110. on 22 May 2017 at 1:08 pm 110.freddies_dead said …

    101.The Messenger said …

    Part 1 of my response to 97.freddies_dead.

    “To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.”

    The destructiveness and intolerance that I was referring to was listed partially in the next paragraphs when I discussed the atrocities that atheists committed under atheistic governments.

    Lol, not once does messy show that the atrocities committed were done in the name of atheism, because he can’t. The names he mentioned either weren’t atheists (Hitler) or were acting in the name of Communism (Stalin).

    And further more I would like to make it clear that atheism does have one dogma, which is as you have stated the “rejection of theistic belief”.

    I see messy doesn’t understand what “dogma” actually is. Rejection of belief is dogma like turning the TV off is choosing a channel.

    Although that dogma does not teach anyone to be “destructive or intolerant” it almost always leads to it.

    No, it doesn’t.

    The reason that Atheism causes those things to happen is because when you remove “belief in GOD” that leads people to believe in a new GOD, which is themselves.

    So what you’re saying is that people need a God – even if that God is themselves – to be truly awful? Well, I’d have to agree with that.

    As you have stated in your own words that “Stalin saw himself as God” and that “He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism”. Because Stalin saw himself as GOD he believed that he and he alone was the sole authority and ultimate authority on morality, and therefore saw nothing wrong with killing all of the people that I listed: The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.
    The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of GOD man makes himself into GOD, and this happens to many Atheists, especially those with a large amount of political power, as we have seen in the twentieth century and we continue to see in this century.

    Note that messy has still failed to show that anyone has killed in the name of atheism. Instead these people have had to institute some sort of “higher power” e.g. Communism or themselves as Gods in order to justify their actions.

    Here is a list of some the Atheists that decided to become GODs because they didn’t believe that there was a GOD, and when they did this innocent people suffered the consequences.
    1. Stalin, and every other dictator that Soviet Russia has ever had.

    As noted, acting in the name of Communism.

    2. Vladimir Lenin.

    Communism. According to the people who have studied him, he saw the works of Marx and Engels as “holy writ” and acted like a “religious fanatic”.

    3. Mussolini.

    Committed his atrocities in the name of Facism. Despite being a self professed atheist he also saw himself as divine and set up the Vatican City as a separate state under the Lateran Pact with the Roman Catholic church – making Catholicism the state religion of Italy.

    4. Fidel Castro.

    Communism again. And he might not even have been an atheist. He was baptised and raised Catholic, but his religious beliefs were complex. Stating that “God is the supreme idea of goodness and justice.” in a letter to the father of a fallen soldier whilst also claiming that “I have never been a believer”.

    5. Hitler.

    Not an atheist.

    6. Joseph Goebbels

    Also not an atheist – he almost became a Catholic priest at one point.

    7. Kim Jong-un and every other member of his family.

    Communism. And another bunch who see/saw themselves as Gods.

    8. Tojo.

    Not an atheist. He was a Jodo Shinshu Buddhist.

    9. Mao Zedong.
    10. Mao Zedong.

    So bad messy names him twice. Another Communist. Started as a Buddhist, but grew out of it. Another who saw himself as God.

    11. Hua Guofeng.

    Another Communist – although I’m wondering whether messy is trying to pin Mao’s atrocities on Guofeng as Hua only held power for a short time and actually ended the Cultural Revolution in China.

    12. Hu Yaobang.

    Messy’s just lobbing out random names now. Another Communist, but like Guofeng he was another reformer. Someone who was part of Mao’s leadership. Messy needs to decide which one of them he wants to blame.

    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.”

    First and foremost, Hitler was not a catholic in his adult life. Although he was raised as a catholic he completely abandoned the church and the religion when he joined the Nazi party.

    Note that messy uttelry fails to adduce any evidence to back up these claims.

    As evidence that Hitler was not a catholic, I will list many of the crimes that Hitler committed against Catholics,

    Christians commit crimes against other Christians – even those from their own faction – all the time. How does this prove messy’s claim that Hitler wasn’t a Christian? It doesn’t.

    as well as documented evidence that pope pius xii himself was involved with the German resistance (which was lead and run by Christians, including the catholic Claus von Stauffenberg and his brother whom gave their lives trying to kill the Hitler) which tried multiple times to kill Hitler.

    Christians fight against Christians all the time too. Again this doesn’t support messy’s claim that Hitler wasn’t a Christian.

    1. The destruction of catholic churches throughout Europe, but mainly in Poland.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    2. The murder of thousands of priests, including those whom were sent to concentration camps.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    3. The torture and murder of Catholic Priest Antoni Zawistowski, along with over 2,720 other members of catholic clergy in Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp.
    Encyclopædia Britannica: Dachau, by Michael Berenbaum.
    Paul Berben; Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945.
    The Priests of Dachau by Ronald Rychlak.
    4. According to SS General Karl Wolff, while he was testifying at the Nuremberg Trials, stated that he was ordered, in person by Hitler, to kidnap the pope.
    John Hooper. 2005, January 17. “Hitler plot to kidnap the pope revealed”. The Guardian.
    5. Colonel Erwin von Lahousen, during the Nuremberg Trials, stated under oath that the Reich Main Security Office had been ordered by Hitler to make a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping the Pope and killing him.
    Zenit. June 16, 2009. “More Proof of Hitler’s Plot to Kill Pius XII Archived April 21, 2010, at the Wayback Machine.”.
    In conclusion, Hitler was not a catholic when he was leading Germany. He was a deadly enemy of all Catholics, including the foundation of the Catholic Church its self, the office of the Pope.

    Messy’s “conclusion” doesn’t follow from the evidence he presents. Certainly Hitler saw organised religion – with the Church as it’s main presence – as a threat to his personal power and did whatever he could to maintain his dominance over religious institutions. This doesn’t prove he wasn’t himself a Christian. He banned atheist groups and linked them to Communism and Jewish materialism.

  111. on 22 May 2017 at 10:15 pm 111.The Messenger said …

    This is the third and final installment of my response to Fred.
    “To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.”
    The destructiveness and intolerance that I was referring to was listed partially in the next paragraphs, when I discussed the atrocities that atheists committed under atheistic governments.
    And further more I would like to make it clear that atheism does have one dogma, which is as you have stated the “rejection of theistic belief”.
    Although that dogma does not teach anyone to be “destructive or intolerant” it almost always leads to it. The reason that Atheism causes those things to happen is because when you remove “belief in GOD” that leads people to believe in a new GOD, which is themselves.
    As you have stated in your own words that “Stalin saw himself as God” and that “He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism”. Because Stalin saw himself as GOD he believed that he and he alone was the sole authority and ultimate authority on morality, and therefore saw nothing wrong with killing all of the people that I listed: The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.
    The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of GOD man makes himself into GOD, and this happens to many Atheists, especially those with a large amount of political power, as we have seen in the twentieth century and we continue to see in this century.
    Here is a list of some the Atheists that decided to become GODs because they didn’t believe that there was a GOD, and when they did this innocent people suffered the consequences.
    1. Stalin, and every other dictator that Soviet Russia has ever had.
    2. Vladimir Lenin.
    3. Mussolini.
    4. Fidel Castro.
    5. Hitler.
    6. Joseph Goebbels
    7. Kim Jong-un and every other member of his family.
    8. Tojo.
    9. Mao Zedong.
    10. Mao Zedong.
    11. Hua Guofeng.
    12. Hu Yaobang.
    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.”
    First and foremost, Hitler was not a catholic in his adult life. Although he was raised as a catholic he completely abandoned the church and the religion when he joined the Nazi party. As evidence that Hitler was not a catholic, I will list many of the crimes that Hitler committed against Catholics, as well as documented evidence that pope pius xii himself was involved with the German resistance (which was lead and run by Christians, including the catholic Claus von Stauffenberg and his brother whom gave their lives trying to kill the Hitler) which tried multiple times to kill Hitler.
    1. The destruction of catholic churches throughout Europe, but mainly in Poland.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    2. The murder of thousands of priests, including those whom were sent to concentration camps.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    3. The torture and murder of Catholic Priest Antoni Zawistowski, along with over 2,720 other members of catholic clergy in Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp.
    Encyclopædia Britannica: Dachau, by Michael Berenbaum.
    Paul Berben; Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945.
    The Priests of Dachau by Ronald Rychlak.
    4. According to SS General Karl Wolff, while he was testifying at the Nuremberg Trials, stated that he was ordered, in person by Hitler, to kidnap the pope.
    John Hooper. 2005, January 17. “Hitler plot to kidnap the pope revealed”. The Guardian.
    5. Colonel Erwin von Lahousen, during the Nuremberg Trials, stated under oath that the Reich Main Security Office had been ordered by Hitler to make a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping the Pope and killing him.
    Zenit. June 16, 2009. “More Proof of Hitler’s Plot to Kill Pius XII Archived April 21, 2010, at the Wayback Machine.”.
    In conclusion, Hitler was not a catholic when he was leading Germany. He was a deadly enemy of all Catholics, including the foundation of the Catholic Church its self, the office of the Pope.
    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. “
    Unless you can show actual documented proof that your “vast majority” of Hitler followers kept their faith while following him, then I can’t believe your claim.
    On the other hand I am able to prove that the vast majority of those who were in the German resistance were Christian, including their honored leader Claus von Stauffenberg.
    Also there is recorded evidence of correspondence and cooperation between the Pope and the German resistance. Before the German resistance attempted to kill Hitler, with a plane bomb, they contacted the pope and asked him for his support of the operation, which he gave. The communications between The German resistance and the Vatican were made possible a man named Josef Müller, who was himself a devote catholic, and spy for the Vatican, and was tortured and nearly died assisting the German resistance.
    Joachim Fest; Plotting Hitler’s Death: The German Resistance to Hitler, 1933–1945; Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1996 p. 131
    John Toland; Hitler; Wordsworth Editions; 1997 Edn; p. 760.
    William L. Shirer; The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Secker & Warburg; London; 1960; pp. 648–49
    Ronald Rychlak, Cornwell’s Errors: Reviewing Hitler’s Pope.
    “In direct contradiction of the Christian Gods instructions regarding the treatment of slaves, lol? No they didn’t.”
    Actually they did, and also I can tell that you are referring to the Old Testament laws which were done away with in the New Testament. Also I am not sure where you are getting your interpretation of scripture from, as I have been in the catholic church my entire life and have never heard a single member of the clergy ever support the practice of slavery.
    Furthermore, I would like to point out that even the Orthodox Jews, whom still follow the Old Testament books which you are referencing from, do not own any slaves in today’s world.
    “Not quite correct. Augustine felt that slavery was inevitable – the product of sin, not a sin in and of itself. “The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow — that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.””
    “St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15”
    The quote that you have referenced does not contain a denial of the fact that slavery is sin. It does however demonstrate that Augustine, as I stated, “opposed slavery”.
    Furthermore, it is historical fact that St. Augustine led many of the clergy members under his direct authority to free slaves “as an act of piety”.
    Augustine, “Of the Work of Monks”, p. 25, Vol. 3, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Eerdman’s, Reprinted 1986.
    St. Augustine wrote a very passionate letter to the Emperor of Hippo, urging him to make laws that would stop the selling of slaves, and he put a specific emphasis on stopping the selling of children.
    The Saints, Pauline Books & Media, Daughters of St. Paul, Editions du Signe (1998), p. 72.
    “This is probably bullshit. Research at Cambridge by Dr. Roy Flechner casts doubt on the traditional story of St. Patrick being taken as a slave to Ireland as a teenager before escaping back to Britain.”
    I noticed that you used the words “probably” and “doubt” to describe your so called PROOF that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” “is bullshit”. This shows that you lack certainty and confidence, as does “Dr. Roy Flechner”, in your belief that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is false.
    Also I wonder how “Dr. Roy Flechner” calculated that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is “probably” wrong.
    Also you only list one scholar, “Dr. Roy Flechner”, that supports your position, while I can do the same thing. Lets agree that there are scholars that believe in the “the traditional story of St. Patrick”, and there are those who do not. Unless we can get them all, or at least an overwhelming majority, to agree to one side of this issue, the listing of scholars becomes pointless. It is pointless because for every scholar that speaks in favor of your belief I can list another that sides with my beilief.
    “According to Flechner, once Patrick was faced with the obligation to become a Decurion following the void left by his father, he preferred to emigrate overseas. Ireland would have been a natural choice, given its proximity and links with western Britain.”
    This is false due the fact that that Patrick did not return to Ireland until he was given the position of bishop. Also Ireland had few links between Britain due to the massive amount of cultural differences, as well as the fact that Ireland was still populated mostly by people who practiced a form of paganism that was viewed as so vile that the roman pagans had made it illegal to practice in Britain.
    Confession of St. Patrick. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.
    “The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction: the only way out of slavery in this period was to be released by manumission or redeemed, and Patrick never says he was redeemed. The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.””
    Once again you have displayed a significant amount of doubt in your own agruement by stating that “The traditional story” “is likely to be fiction”. By doing that you have once again shown your own uncertainty.
    First I would like to know if this is your own determination or is this what “Dr. Roy Flechner” determined.
    Also instead of stating facts, you provided what appears to be a personal, and certainly false assumption, that “The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.”. Your assumption must be viewed as false because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up your claim about Patrick’s motive for writing .
    Furthermore, you stated that the only way out of slavery in this period “was to be released by manumission or redeemed”, yet you overlook the third and most obvious way of being freed, which is escaping, which is exactly what Patrick did.
    “Confession of St. Patrick, Part 17”. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.
    “Ireland did not have a monetary economy at this early stage, so exchanging his family land in Britain for money would have been pointless. Slaves, however, were a highly valued commodity and Patrick mentions that his family owned slaves, which was common for aristocratic families in Britain at this time.”
    Notice that you did not state that Patrick owned slaves, you stated that “his family owned slaves”. Also it would have been completely impossible for Patrick to use any of his “money”, much less the “money that his family” had, due to the fact that he was cut off from them when he was kidnapped in his youth and forced into slavery overseas.
    “Confession of St Patrick” written by St Patrick himself, which is a firsthand account written by the Bishop himself.
    “No, it was just something else they adopted and incorporated into Christianity from earlier religions.”
    Once again you make the mistake of speaking about Christianity as if it were one united belief system, when in reality there are many different types of Christianity, many of which are false.
    If you are going to criticize individual Christians for racism then go ahead, in fact I would happily help you.
    But if you are going to accuse Christianity, as a whole, of being a racist belief system then you must prove that each and every one of the thousands of denominations that exist are all teaching racism.
    Generalizing so many different belief systems is not logical, because they all teach different things.
    “Except for the Christian Crusaders who ate the flesh of Muslim soldiers after the seige and capture of Ma’arra (there were multiple, independent, first hand accounts of that little party). Not to mention the thriving trade in medicinal cannablism which lasted long after the Christianisation of Europe. As usual the facts disagree with messy’s grandiose claims.”
    First of all you did not list any sources to back up these claims, which already makes your credibility look even more questionable than it already does.
    Secondly, this does show that I made a mistake in how I worded my claim. Instead of typing “Christians managed to wipe out the practice of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe as well as North and south America”, I should have typed “Christians managed to wipe out the vast majority of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe, as well as in north and south America.
    Thirdly, this does not prove that Christianity teaches cannibalism. The only thing that this shows is that there were some Catholic Christians, hundreds of years ago, that betrayed the Catholic Church by violating the Catholic anticannibalism teachings. Although I will admit that in some rare cases, where people are in situations like that of the tragic Donner Party, if you have absolutely no other way to stay alive, then people are allowed to “eat” the flesh of man. This however does not give anyone the right to murder those around them for food, because that is still considered murder which is viewed as a “grave sin”.
    “To be fair I’m not just judging *all Christians* as a group. I lump all of the other irrational theists in there too. Any illogical looney who insists that their God is real and not just a product of their imagination. In fact the fact that there are so many different brands of Christians is just more evidence that the Christian god does not exist. You’d think an all knowing, all powerful god would have no problem presenting itself in such a way that everyone gets the exact same message with no room for different interpretations, but apparently not. Instead you get all these different versions of the Christian god who just happen to act in just the way those doing the interpreting imagine He would behave.””
    If you are going to call us “illogical looney”s then you have to present a reasonable and well documented argument to prove your belief.
    And I agree that many Christians are illogical and looney and I would happily help you criticizes them.
    But your position assumes that all forms of Christianity are false, and you group their belief systems in with other belief systems that are completely different from theirs. Doing that is not logical at all by any standard.
    If I used your same method of “lumping” all theist together and criticizing them as one group, and used that same method to criticize all atheists as one group, then I would be just as illogical as you.
    No offence.

  112. on 22 May 2017 at 10:45 pm 112.The Messenger said …

    Fred, I know that you are attempting to dodge my full response by commenting on this post, so i have done you a favor and have posted my full response in comment 111.

  113. on 23 May 2017 at 1:27 am 113.The Messenger said …

    We often hear accusations that “Adolf Hitler was an atheist and look what he did!” The idea that Hitler believed in God, that he even claimed Christ as his own, is so shocking to people that they will go to any lengths to deny it. But the notion that Hitler was an atheist has already been soundly refuted.1 He was unmistakably a god-fearing Christian.

    It is claimed that the quotations and evidence of Hitler’s belief were a ruse, propaganda for the benefit of his Nazi followers. This is hardly plausible. After all, if Hitler had to pretend to be a god-fearing Christian to sway his Nazi supporters, that means Nazis had to have been god-fearing Christians. Certainly, Nazism in general was no kind of atheism. It was without doubt a Christian movement, even rabidly anti-atheist. Like the McCarthyites that came after them, the Nazis equated atheism with their arch-enemy Bolshevism. Atheism was among their many charges against the Jews. Even the SS [Editor’s note: After publication the author learned these belt buckles were standard uniform only in the German regular army, not the SS. He apologizes for the error.] wore Gott mit uns, “God is with us,” on their belt buckles.

  114. on 23 May 2017 at 1:28 am 114.The Messenger said …

    This was the official position of the Nazi party. And it went to the very same extremes that we see among Christian Fundamentalists in America today. For instance, read this excerpt from the 24th principle of the Nazi party, from the infamous Twenty Five Points (1920):

    We demand the freedom of religion in the Reich so long as they do not endanger the position of the state or adversely affect the moral standards of the German race. As such the Party represents a positively Christian position without binding itself to one particular faith.

    Likewise, the 1933 Nazi Concordat with the Catholic Church, Article 21:

    Catholic religious instruction in elementary, senior, secondary and vocational schools constitutes a regular portion of the curriculum, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious instruction, special care will be taken to inculcate patriotic, civic and social consciousness and sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian Faith and the moral code, precisely as in the case of other subjects.

    So there can be no doubt that the Nazis were thoroughly and devotedly Christian, eager to inculcate Christian theism for future generations.

  115. on 23 May 2017 at 1:29 am 115.The Messenger said …

    This is especially important, since hundreds of thousands of Nazis carried out the Final Solution, not one man. If they disagreed with Hitler’s orders, they could have ignored them or sandbagged the process. To the contrary, all survivor accounts agree: Nazis involved in carrying out Hitler’s orders were eager, even zealous for the task. So what Hitler himself believed is almost irrelevant. Had he rejected certain elements of Nazism openly, he would likely have been deposed and replaced with a more suitably Christian villain to carry out the Final Solution.

    “God with us,” the Nazi motto on military belt buckles.

    But we have no evidence that he was perpetuating a ruse. Even in unguarded moments, he asserted faith in God and Christ. His entire philosophy was thoroughly intertwined with and built upon the religious assumptions of Christian theism.

    Even so, a more subtle argument has arisen about Hitler: that yes, he was a believer, but he was vehemently anti-Christian. Unlike the accusation that he was an atheist, which is based on no evidence whatsoever, this claim at least rests on supposed direct quotations of Hitler. Though Hitler did criticize priests and the church and certain Christian dogmas quite a bit, so do many god-fearing Christians. But clear attacks on the whole of Christian theism are also attributed to him. Here is a typical example from Jonathan Glover’s Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century (1999, pp. 355-6):

    Hitler was passionately hostile to Christianity: “I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie . . . Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar.” He accepted a broadly Nietzschean account of Christianity as a conspiracy of Jews for a slave revolt against their Roman conquerors: “Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society.”

  116. on 23 May 2017 at 1:30 am 116.The Messenger said …

    All of these quotations (and others like them that you will probably see bandied about on the web) come from a single source: Hitler’s Table Talk. This is purportedly a notebook based on the shorthand of two secretaries to Hitler, Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker, instructed by Hitler’s right-hand-man Martin Bormann to record for posterity whatever Hitler said in his bunker in Berlin, usually at tea. They recorded official orders as well as things he said off the cuff, and logged entries by date and time of day. Bormann intended to edit the notes and publish them as a definitive party manifesto for the victorious Reich.

    It is likely these notes were real. Six original pages from the notebook still exist in the Adolf Hitler Collection at the Library of Congress, which should be authentic.3 There are also two completely independent manuscripts that agree in such a way as to corroborate the existence of a genuine original, and historian Werner Jochmann, in his edition of one of these, cites several notes and letters confirming that the Table Talk was indeed being made and collated by Bormann during the war. And one of the note-takers, Henry Picker, kept his copy of the notes and published them soon after the war, swearing to their authenticity. He later procured sworn testimonials to this by fellow bunker officers, even arch-Nazi Engel himself.

    There are two versions of the original German of Hitler’s Table Talk. One version of the notebooks was edited and collated by Martin Bormann, called the Bormann Vermerke (“Bormann Notes”), which until recently existed only in the private collection of Francois Genoud. He bought it in 1948 from an Italian official, who in turn received it from Bormann’s wife Gerda, who took the manuscript with her when she fled the Allied invasion in 1945, dying in an Italian detention camp in 1946. This text continues to 1944. The other version is that of Picker, who received his copy from Heim upon replacing him, then added his own entries until Heim’s return. This text only reaches to mid-1942, because Picker was then reassigned and no longer had access to Heim’s notes. The Bormann Vermerke also contains entries made by Bormann, and presumably Heim, during the period covered by Picker’s text, which are inexplicably not found in his copy. There is also supposed to be a third copy, which Bormann forwarded to an office in Münich, but it was lost (most likely destroyed by Allied bombs).4

    The two surviving manuscripts have spawned an endless number of printed editions in various languages. Apart from changes of title, publisher, and publication date, these are the major variants: First came the German of Henry Picker in 1951 (2nd ed. in 1963; 3rd in 1976) entitled Hitler’s Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier, 1941-42 (“Hitler’s Table Talk in the Central Headquarters”). In 1952 came a French translation of half the Bormann Vermerke, by Genoud himself, called Libres Propos sur la Guerre et la Paix: Recueillis sur l’Ordre de Martin Bormann (“Candid Remarks on the War and the Peace: Collected by Order of Martin Bormann”). A second volume was promised but never produced. Then in 1953 the entire Bormann Vermerke appeared in English, edited by H. R. Trevor-Roper (but translated by R. H. Stevens and Norman Cameron). This bore the titles Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941-1944 and Hitler’s Secret Conversations, 1941-1944. A new edition of this appeared in 1973, and a third in 2000.

    However, the original German of the Bormann Vermerke did not appear until 1980, presented by Werner Jochmann in Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944: die Aufzeichnungen Heinrich Heims herausgegeben von Werner Jochmann (i.e., “Monologue in the Central Headquarters . . . the Notes of Heinrich Heim edited by Werner Jochmann”), which had appeared piecemeal in a German periodical some years earlier. But Jochmann’s text lacks the entries made by Picker, due to a copyright dispute.

  117. on 23 May 2017 at 1:30 am 117.The Messenger said …

    Picker’s edition carries the strongest claim to authenticity. It has the actual German, was the first to be published, and has the support of eyewitness testimony. It also had scholarly backing, “Arranged on behalf of the German Institute for the History of National Socialism, initiated and published by Gerhard Ritter, professor of history at the University of Freiburg” (translated from the title page). Not only was Picker one of the actual stenographers (from 21 March to 2 August 1942), he also acquired Heim’s notes directly, bypassing Bormann. Another historian, Walter Mediger, even checked Picker’s first edition against these original notes, made corrections in the second edition, and testified to its accuracy.

    Next in authority is the scholarly work of Werner Jochmann, who publishes the German of the Bormann manuscript employed by Genoud and Trevor-Roper’s translators. Though it passed through many hands, including Bormann’s, it agrees with Picker’s text to such a detailed extent that we can be assured the two texts have a common ancestor, which must be the actual bunker notes themselves. The Jochmann text contains some entries lacking from Picker, but otherwise there are only trivial variations in wording here and there. Jochmann supports his text’s authority by including photocopies of actual pages from the manuscript, handwritten notes by Heim and Bormann, and other items. He also demonstrates from letters and documents how the notes came to be made. Of course, even at best, Picker and Jochmann only present hasty notes made by a second party, not necessarily a true verbatim record of what Hitler said. Everyone underplays this fact, except Jochmann, who emphasizes it. And since everyone involved, including Hitler, saw this as the basis of a future published manifesto, it was not the entirely unguarded commentary that some claim.

    Clever minds might consider the possibility that the Bormann Vermerke was actually fabricated by Genoud, by simply copying and expanding on Picker’s German. But we can actually rule that out from an examination of Picker’s first and second editions. Genoud correctly translates several words and sentences in 1952 that were accidentally omitted from Picker’s 1951 release, but restored by Mediger in 1963. Thus, Genoud must have had access to a genuine manuscript, and that must be the one Jochmann finally released in 1980. This, in fact, corroborates the authenticity of both German originals, at least where they agree.

    Such is the state of the source for Hitler’s remarks. “I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie,” Hitler supposedly said on 27 February 1942. “Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.” From this you would certainly conclude that Hitler believed all Christianity was a lie, a disease he wished gone. But the German does not say this! And there lies the scandal. The text of both Jochmann and (the corrected) Picker agree in every detail, yet say something completely different from the English everyone quotes. I will give you my own literal translations so you can see for yourself.

  118. on 23 May 2017 at 1:31 am 118.The Messenger said …

    Let’s take the “disease” remark first. Here is what Picker/Jochmann says (the preceding three sentences must be included now for context, though all but the first of these sentences are completely missing from Trevor-Roper and Genoud):

    I have never found pleasure in maltreating others, even if I know it isn’t possible to maintain oneself in the world without force. Life is granted only to those who fight the hardest. It is the law of life: Defend yourself!
    The time in which we live has the appearance of the collapse of this idea. It can still take 100 or 200 years. I am sorry that, like Moses, I can only see the Promised Land from a distance.

    At once you can see the English endorsed by Trevor-Roper and used by Glover (and everyone else: this is the only English translation in print) is a lie. There is no “disease of Christianity.” Rather, in place of that phrase is a reference to what Hitler says in the preceding sentences, which Trevor-Roper’s English doesn’t even include: the idea of expediency, survival of the fittest, the “necessary evil” of using force to implement your will. That is what Hitler wishes will end (and he certainly believed it would, when the Third Reich finally became the utopian state of every Nazi’s dreams).

    The story doesn’t end there. The Trevor-Roper-endorsed translation of this passage is not from any German manuscript at all. It is a verbatim translation of Genoud’s French! Worse than that, it is an inept translation. Stevens and Cameron commit a common amateur’s mistake, one that only makes sense if they were translating from the French, for no other language has the construction that they bungle here. They give the first sentence above as “I admit that one cannot impose one’s will by force, but I have a horror of people who enjoy inflicting sufferings on others’ bodies and tyranny upon others’ souls.” This fanciful translation perfectly matches Genoud’s imaginative French rendering of Hitler’s much more concise and sober German. But it also contains a mistake. Here, they have Hitler saying that you cannot impose your will by force, whereas the German (and Genoud’s French) says that you cannot impose your will except by force (which makes much more sense given Hitler’s following ‘qualification’). As it happens, in French you would say this in a way that looks like you are saying the opposite: Genoud uses the infamous ne . . . que formation. Only a competent translator can spot the difference. Stevens and Cameron didn’t (at least not here–examination of other passages shows that they knew enough to translate the same construction correctly elsewhere).

    Numerous other evidence like this confirms the general conclusion: the published English is from the French, not the German. This means that Stevens and Cameron must have lied to or misled Trevor-Roper, claiming they had translated Genoud’s German manuscript. Moreover, the ultimate source for the doctored quotations is Genoud. The immediate and most important conclusion is that the Trevor-Roper edition, the only English version in print, is worthless. No one who quotes this text is quoting what Hitler actually said.

    Now let’s look at the “Christian lie” quote. Picker and Jochmann actually say (again giving the preceding sentence for context): “To do something false against one’s own knowledge, that is out of the question! One should never personally fall in line with such a lie” (Jochmann presents both sentences in first person).5 Though the context still happens to be a criticism of the Church–Hitler implying he followed the “true” Christianity that the Church somehow betrayed–he does not call Christianity a lie. And here it is even more clearly a distortion, since the sentence “I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie” does not seem to fit here, and is thus more evidently an interpolation, whereas its counterpart, “One should never personally fall in line with such a lie,” fits perfectly, carrying over and completing the thought of the previous sentence, which is about hypocrisy in general.

    There are many other suspect quotations. I checked over a dozen, in four separate entries. All of them ended with similar results. For example, one oft-repeated quote comes from 13 December 1941: “But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery” (Stevens and Cameron’s English, again matching Genoud’s French verbatim). But the original German says, “Christianity teaches ‘transubstantiation,’ which is the maddest thing ever concocted by a human mind in its delusions, a mockery of all that is godly.” The difference in meaning here is radical, and again shows how Genoud (hence the Trevor-Roper translation) has distorted Hitler’s criticism of one form of Christianity (which implies he believed there was a true Christianity) into a thoroughly anti-Christian sentiment.

    However, for one quotation I ran into a different problem. We already saw Glover quoting an entry for 19 October 1941 where Hitler is made to say that all Christianity was “a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society.” This is, in fact, an accurate translation of what appears in the Bormann Vermerke. But Picker has no entry for this date at all. In it, Hitler equates Christianity to syphilis as the two diseases that destroyed Rome. The context indicates he means early Catholicism, not “true” Christianity, but it is strange that Picker never received this entry from Heim. Jochmann indicates that the following entry (for 21 October) was made by Bormann personally, and the 19 October entry might have been his, too.

  119. on 23 May 2017 at 1:32 am 119.The Messenger said …

    This mysterious entry is remarkably similar to that of 13 December, which appears in all editions. I translate the relevant part here:

    Christ was an Aryan.6 But Paul used his teachings to mobilize the underworld and organize a proto-bolshevism. With its breakdown, the beautiful clarity of the ancient world was lost.

    Here, Hitler’s position is more subtle. First, Hitler does not deny Christ but claims Christ for himself (Jesus was an Aryan and therefore his noble predecessor). Second, he attacks not Christianity but the Catholic tradition, in effect the elements of church doctrine that are pro-communist and anti-fascist, and thus hostile to Hitler’s authoritarian program. As it happens, in both entries Hitler refers to the “ancient world” as “beautiful,” refers to its “breakdown,” and talks about the “mobilization” of “Proto-Bolshevism.” It seems possible, then, that the mysterious entry for 19 October is something Bormann reconstructed from a faulty memory of what was actually said three weeks later, which Picker and Heim produced correctly.

    Stevens and Cameron are certainly guilty of some shameful incompetence, if not outright dishonesty. Nor does Trevor-Roper have much of an excuse. But the real culprit is François Genoud. David Irving tells how Genoud attempted to hoax him in the 1970s with a forgery of “Hitler’s Last Testament.”7 Genoud even confessed the forgery to Irving, declaring in his defense, “But it’s just what Hitler would have said, isn’t it?” He was evidently willing to perpetrate a hoax, thinking it permissible to fabricate the words of Hitler if it was what he believed Hitler “would have said.” His motives for doctoring the Table Talk may be unfathomable. Genoud was a very strange man with a colorful history: a Swiss banker and Nazi spy who laundered money for the Third Reich, a self-professed neo-Nazi even up to his suicide in 1996 (though, stranger still, he never supported the holocaust), a voracious purchaser and profiteer of Nazi archives, and an admitted financer of terrorists.8

    All this is not to say that Hitler does not criticize the Church and various Christian dogmas, even in Picker’s and Jochmann’s versions of the Table Talk. For instance, in an entry for the afternoon of 13 December 1941, Hitler rails against the idea of a physical resurrection and in favor of a spiritual one, and takes a very cynical view of Catholicism, voicing many of the same criticisms one might hear from a candid (and bigoted) Protestant. Of course, Hitler was raised Catholic and was never excommunicated, although he was apparently critical of many Catholic dogmas. Yet he makes it clear that he believes in God, Christ, the immortality of the soul, and divine providence. For instance, on 27 February 1942 Hitler is quoted as saying “The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator,” a sentence curiously omitted from Genoud and Trevor-Roper.

    Surveying Hitler’s remarks on religion in the Table Talk, Jochmann remarks that “Hitler was by no means unreligious.” It is the Genoud-Trevor-Roper text that distorts this picture far beyond that, painting Hitler as a quasi-atheistic anti-Christian. It is clear that Picker and Jochmann have the correct text and Trevor-Roper’s is entirely untrustworthy. Hitler was no more anti-Christian than your run-of-the-mill Protestant bigot. His Christianity was odd, surely, but so is that of many die-hard believers today.

  120. on 23 May 2017 at 1:57 am 120.GOD said …

    The Messenger, here is the proof that I exist. I am writing to you to prove it. By the way, my name is Thor and I have a hammer. So….

  121. on 23 May 2017 at 11:33 am 121.click the following post said …

    click the following post

    Find the best school pa system that’s available plus on sale. Get it now!

  122. on 23 May 2017 at 1:44 pm 122.freddies_dead said …

    87.The Messenger said …
    Part 2 of my response to Fred. There will be a part 3.

    Ooooo, can’t wait.

    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. “

    Unless you can show actual documented proof that your “vast majority” of Hitler followers kept their faith while following him then I can’t believe your claim.

    The religious made up a massive majority of the people at the time of the second world war. Unless you have evidence that they all suddenly renouced their gods it’s fairly safe to assume they maintained their beliefs during the war. The German soldiers even went into battle with “Gott mit uns” (God with us) on their uniforms. When it comes to the higher ups – like Hitler – I’ve presented the evidence we have that they were believers.

    On the other hand am able to prove that the majority of those who were in the German resistance were Christian, including their honored leader Claus von Stauffenberg.

    Lol, no he’s not. The only reason messy can make this claim is for the same reason I can make mine – the majority of people at the time were religious. We only really know for sure the main players – like Hitler and von Stauffenburg – everyone else we look at the demographics of the day and we extrapolate from there. The majority of the Reich were believers just like the majority of the resistance were.

    Also there is recorded evidence of correspondence and cooperation between the Pope and the German resistance. The communications between one another were made possible the devote catholic Josef Müller.

    Reichskonkordat.

    “In direct contradiction of the Christian Gods instructions regarding the treatment of slaves, lol? No they didn’t.”

    Actually they did,

    Ohhhhh nooooo they didn’t! Argumentum ad pantomimem. Since messy offers no evidence I may as well have some fun.

    and also I can tell that you are referring to the Old Testament laws which were done away with in the New Testament.

    “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Um, Jesus disagrees.

    Also I am not sure where you are getting your interpretation of scripture from, as I have been in the catholic church my entire life and have never heard a single member of the clergy ever support the practice of slavery.

    I got it from the same place I get anything relating to what Christianity teaches, the Bible. The Bible identifies many types of slaves and gives the regulations about their keeping/treatment. It condones slavery and Christians have used that to support the practice of slavery.

    Furthermore, I would like to point out that even the Orthodox Jews, whom still follow the Old Testament books which you are referencing from, do not own any slaves in today’s world.

    Unfortunately, despite the worlds general movement away from the barbaric practices found in holy books – the Bible included – slavery still exists. I’d be very circumspect about claiming a large religious group is entirely free from the practice. The Walk Free Foundation generates a global slavery index which ranks 167 countries according to the prevalence of slavery. Israel is actually pretty decent coming in at number 142 on the list (list from 2014). However, that means that there are still around 6,500 slaves in Israel alone. That doesn’t include jews elsewhere of course.

    “Not quite correct. Augustine felt that slavery was inevitable – the product of sin, not a sin in and of itself. “The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow — that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.””
    “St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15”

    This quote that you have referenced does not contain a denial of the fact that slavery is sin.

    The claim that slavery is sin isn’t actually a fact – merely a claim. You presented no evidence to support it. Indeed the quote I supplied shows that Augustine saw slavery as an inevitable consequence OF sin, NOT a sin itself. The Bible condones slavery and gave instructions on how slaves should be treated – you could beat one to death for example … as long as it took them a couple of days to die.

    It does however demonstrate that Augustine, as I stated, “opposed slavery”.

    The quote I posted shows Augustine felt slavery was a punishment for sin i.e. it is a condition, not a sin itself. Of course he preached against people sinning, but he did not, as you claim, travel around opposing slavery – instead he opposed the sins which may result in slavery.

    Furthermore, it is historical fact that St. Augustine led many of the clergy members under his direct authority to free slaves “as an act of piety”.
    Augustine, “Of the Work of Monks”, p. 25, Vol. 3, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Eerdman’s, Reprinted 1986.

    Does messy understand what an “act of piety” is? It is about personal reverence to God. It’s nothing to do with helping to free the enslaved and all to do with the person doing the freeing. Forgiving whichever sin had led the person to slavery in the first place as a kind of “Look at me God, aren’t I great for being such a forgiving person?”. Quite literally trying to get the clergy to look more holy to God.

    Also Augustine wrote a very passionate letter to the Emperor of Hippo, urging him to make laws that would stop the selling of slaves, and he put a specific emphasis on stopping the selling of children.
    The Saints, Pauline Books & Media, Daughters of St. Paul, Editions du Signe (1998), p. 72.

    The reason the Christian Emperors allowed the selling of children in the first place was to reduce the practice of infanticide. Also, Augustine’s letter to the Emperor was not to stop slavery as such, but more an entreaty to enforce the regulations and make more laws to prevent slaves being treated as badly as they were. Not a bad thing, but not really a call to end slavery.

    “This is probably bullshit. Research at Cambridge by Dr. Roy Flechner casts doubt on the traditional story of St. Patrick being taken as a slave to Ireland as a teenager before escaping back to Britain.”

    I noticed that you used the words “probably” and “doubt” to describe your so called PROOF that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” “is bullshit”. This shows that you lack certainty and confidence, as does “Dr. Roy Flechner”, in your belief that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is false.

    I never claimed to have “PROOF” and my refusal to use such absolute terms is nothing more than intellectual honesty regarding what is known about St. Patrick i.e. not a whole hell of a lot. Quite simply some of what we think we know contradicts the way things were back then and casts doubt on the story.

    Also I wonder how “Dr. Roy Flechner” calculated that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is “probably” wrong.

    By spending years studying the evidence. I wonder what makes messy an expert in ancient Celtic history?

    Also you only list one scholar, “Dr. Roy Flechner”, that supports your position, while I can do the same thing. Lets agree that there are scholars that believe in the “the traditional story of St. Patrick”, and there are those who do not. Unless we can get them all, or at least an overwhelming majority, to agree to one side of this issue, the listing of scholars becomes pointless because for every scholar that speaks in favor of your belief I can list another that sides with my beilief.

    Messy is simply admitting that the evidence is ambiguous enough to support both interpretations – what happened to his certainty and confidence?

    “According to Flechner, once Patrick was faced with the obligation to become a Decurion following the void left by his father, he preferred to emigrate overseas. Ireland would have been a natural choice, given its proximity and links with western Britain.”

    This is false due the fact that that Patrick did not return to Ireland until he was given the position of bishop.

    Lol, in one version of events, yes. In Flechner’s version, which messy has already conceded has equal support, that didn’t happen.

    Also Ireland had few links between Britain due to the massive amount of cultural differences, as well as the fact that Ireland was still populated mostly by people who practiced a form of paganism that was views as so vile that the roman pagans had made it illegal to practice in Britain.

    Lol, now messy’s an expert on early Anglo-Irish relations? The sheer proximity of Ireland to Western Britain meant it was inevitable that the two should become linked – as they remain so today. From the early raiding parties which Patrick claims to have been a victim of, through to proper trade links bewtween the two.

    “The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction: the only way out of slavery in this period was to be released by manumission or redeemed, and Patrick never says he was redeemed. The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.””

    Once again you have displayed a significant amount of doubt in your own agruement by stating that “The traditional story” “is likely to be fiction”. By doing that you have once again shown your own uncertainty.

    Intellectual honesty. When the evidence is thin on the ground, as it is when talking about events some 1500 years ago, it’s not always possible to say things with certainty. Anyone claiming to do so it not being intellectually honest about what the evidence truly supports.

    First I would like to know if this is your own determination or is this what “Dr. Roy Flechner” determined.

    Not personally being an expert on ancient Celtic life I tend to defer to those that are.

    Also instead of stating facts, you provided your own personal and certainly false assumption that “Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.”.

    Note that messy only provides his own personal and probably (there’s that intellectual honesty again) false assumption that someone writing autobiographically wouldn’t want to show themselves in the best light.

    Furthermore you stated that the only way out of slavery in this period “was to be released by manumission or redeemed”, yet you overlook the third and most obvious way of being freed, which is escaping, which is exactly what Patrick did.

    Which is what Patrick claimed he did. There’s no evidence beyond his own story that he was ever enslaved in the first place and of course it’s mere coincidence that he “escaped” at the 6 year mark – where certain slaves were traditionally freed according to the Bible.

    “Confession of St. Patrick, Part 17”. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.
    “Ireland did not have a monetary economy at this early stage, so exchanging his family land in Britain for money would have been pointless. Slaves, however, were a highly valued commodity and Patrick mentions that his family owned slaves, which was common for aristocratic families in Britain at this time.”

    Notice that you did not state that Patrick owned slaves, you stated that “his family owned slaves”.

    Yes, Patrick’s family owned slaves.

    Also it would have been completely impossible for Patrick to use any of his “money”, much less the “money that his family” had, due to the fact that he was cut off from them when he was kidnapped in his youth and forced into slavery overseas.

    If he was kidnapped and didn’t just bugger off to Ireland to avoid taking his father’s place as Decurion.

    “Confession of St Patrick” written by St Patrick himself, which is a firsthand account written by the Bishop himself.

    That’s the claim and of course no-one ever tries to make themselves look better when they tell the story of their life.

    “No, it was just something else they adopted and incorporated into Christianity from earlier religions.”

    Once again you make the mistake of speaking about Christianity as if it were one united belief system, when in reality there are many different types of Christianity, many of which are false.

    So says messy. Of course he believes that it’s his version that’s the “True” Christianity. If only one of those factions could demonstrate that their God actually exists, then we’d know. You’d think an omnipotent entity could actually show itself to everyone so they’d be certain, but apparently that’s too difficult.

    If you are going to criticize individual Christians for racism then go ahead, in fact I would happily help you. But if you are going to accuse Christianity, as a whole, of being a racist belief system then you must prove that each and every one of the thousands of denominations that exist are all teaching racism.
    Generalizing so many different belief systems is not logical, because they all teach different things.

    Nope. You see every one of those denominations use the Bible as their basis. Sure they all like to cherry pick which bits they actually accept from the Bible, but that’s their problem not mine. The Bible itself condones racism therefore it’s right to say that Christianity condones racism.

  123. on 23 May 2017 at 1:44 pm 123.freddies_dead said …

    111.The Messenger said …
    This is the third and final installment of my response to Fred.

    For some reason messy thinks writing the same thing twice is somehow part 2 and 3. I won’t rehash the things he’s pointlessly repeated.

    However, he concludes…

    “Except for the Christian Crusaders who ate the flesh of Muslim soldiers after the seige and capture of Ma’arra (there were multiple, independent, first hand accounts of that little party). Not to mention the thriving trade in medicinal cannablism which lasted long after the Christianisation of Europe. As usual the facts disagree with messy’s grandiose claims.”

    First of all you did not list any sources to back up these claims, which already makes your credibility look even more questionable than it already does.

    Google cannibalism in Europe, it’s not difficult.

    Secondly, this does show that I made a mistake in how I worded my claim. Instead of typing “Christians managed to wipe out the practice of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe as well as North and south America”, I should have typed “Christians managed to wipe out the vast majority of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe, as well as in north and south America.

    I note messy is failing to provide any sources to back up his claim. I wonder why he feels I should be held to that standard when he isn’t going to hold himself to it.

    Thirdly, this does not prove that Christianity teaches cannibalism. The only thing that this shows is that there were some Catholic Christians, hundreds of years ago, that betrayed the Catholic Church by violating the Catholic anticannibalism teachings. Although I will admit that in some rare cases, where people are in situations like that of the tragic Donner Party, if you have absolutely no other way to stay alive, then people are allowed to “eat” the flesh of man. This however does not give anyone the right to murder those around them for food, because that is still considered murder which is viewed as a “grave sin”.

    This is my body, take and eat. This is my blood, take and drink. They’re not just words either, transubstantiation teaches that the Eucharistic elements transform into the body and blood of Christ at consecration. Catholicism has at it’s core a cannibalistic ritual.

    “To be fair I’m not just judging *all Christians* as a group. I lump all of the other irrational theists in there too. Any illogical looney who insists that their God is real and not just a product of their imagination. In fact the fact that there are so many different brands of Christians is just more evidence that the Christian god does not exist. You’d think an all knowing, all powerful god would have no problem presenting itself in such a way that everyone gets the exact same message with no room for different interpretations, but apparently not. Instead you get all these different versions of the Christian god who just happen to act in just the way those doing the interpreting imagine He would behave.””

    If you are going to call us “illogical looney”s then you have to present a reasonable and well documented argument to prove your belief.

    You believe in an imaginary God. I don’t need any more than that. Unless messy would like to prove the existence of his God? He hasn’t tried so far, just takes it for granted that he doesn’t need to prove the one thing that all his arguments rest on.

    And I agree that many Christians are illogical and looney and I would happily help you criticizes them.

    I love the way messy seems to think he’s not one of those Christians.

    But your position assumes that all forms of Christianity are false, and you group their belief systems in with other belief systems that are completely different from theirs. Doing that is not logical at all by any standard.

    They are, I do and it is. Why shouldn’t I judge all claims regarding imaginary gods the same way? It would be illogical – and a pointless waste of time – to do otherwise. If messy thinks his God is somehow different from all the other imaginary gods then he’s welcome to try and show that.

    If I used your same method of “lumping” all theist together and criticizing them as one group, and used that same method to criticize all atheists as one group, then I would be just as illogical as you.
    No offence.

    If I was criticising Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists for not keeping the Sabbath or Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews for not observing Ganesha Chaturthi then that would be illogical, but I’m not. There is one single claim that all theists make – “My God exists”. I’m criticising that one claim and as such it makes sense to criticise them all at once.

    It’s quite simple messy. Stop moaning about Hitler and Stalin and making out that Catholics have done some good things. Prove the existence of your God. Tell us how we can distinguish between your God and something you may merely be imagining.

  124. on 23 May 2017 at 11:34 pm 124.metal building erection said …

    metal building erection

    Find professional design build general contractor that’s in stock plus currently available today!

  125. on 01 Jun 2017 at 10:09 pm 125.facility construction said …

    facility construction

    Find here professional Construction Management that’s now in stock plus at great prices today!

  126. on 02 Jun 2017 at 10:52 pm 126.tenant improvement contractor said …

    tenant improvement contractor

    Find here top quality building erectors that’s in stock plus currently available today!

  127. on 03 Jun 2017 at 10:05 am 127.metal building erection said …

    metal building erection

    Find here the best steel building erector currently available plus on sale today!

  128. on 03 Jun 2017 at 10:02 pm 128.Dumonds chair said …

    Dumonds chair

    Find here the top available dining room set now available in addition currently on sale you can get now!

  129. on 04 Jun 2017 at 12:51 am 129.bedroom set said …

    bedroom set

    Get the greatest new Dumonds dining room set that are available and at great prices you can get now!

  130. on 08 Jun 2017 at 4:56 pm 130.web design agency said …

    web design agency

    Find the best website content currently available now in addition at great prices. Get it now!

  131. on 12 Jun 2017 at 5:17 am 131.mobile web designer Santa rosa said …

    mobile web designer Santa rosa

    Find professional Website content santa rosa currently available in addition on sale. Get it now!

  132. on 13 Jun 2017 at 3:45 pm 132.WordPress website maintenance said …

    WordPress website maintenance

    See top quality Content writer santa rosa that’s available now in addition at the best price. Get it now!

  133. on 14 Jun 2017 at 6:09 am 133.marketing consultant said …

    marketing consultant

    Find here top Santa rosa web design that’s available now in addition at great prices. Get it now!

  134. on 14 Jun 2017 at 11:45 am 134.about his said …

    about his

    Find the brightest new Dumonds side table now now in stock plus at the best price you can get now!

  135. on 14 Jun 2017 at 11:01 pm 135.clock mechanism kit said …

    clock mechanism kit

    See the best available square metal clock dials currently available in addition currently on sale you can get now!

  136. on 16 Jun 2017 at 9:39 am 136.Dumonds coffee table said …

    Dumonds coffee table

    Find the top new Paul Dumond that’s in stock and at great prices you can get now!

  137. on 16 Jun 2017 at 7:13 pm 137.clock motor wholesale said …

    clock motor wholesale

    Find here the top available clock dials faces that’s now in stock in addition on sale you can get now!

  138. on 16 Jun 2017 at 9:33 pm 138.seo said …

    seo

    Find here top santa rosa seo currently available now in addition reasonably priced. Get it now!

  139. on 17 Jun 2017 at 8:15 pm 139.wireless pa system said …

    wireless pa system

    Find here top school bell systems that are available in addition at great prices. Get yours today!

  140. on 24 Jun 2017 at 4:22 am 140.yerba mate weight loss said …

    yerba mate weight loss

    Get most popular how to make yerba mate that are available now in addition at the best price. Get it now!

Trackback This Post | Subscribe to the comments through RSS Feed

Leave a Reply