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Christianity &Islam &Judaism Thomas on 21 Nov 2011 12:55 am

God/Allah: an obnoxious, demonic troll

Sam Harris talks about the nature of religion:

He says:

You’re all aware of course that the Koran exists and claims to be the perfect word of the creator of the universe. You are aware that once having heard this possibility and rejecting it, you are all going to hell for eternity.

He then goes on to ask, what if the Koran is right? It is identical to the Christian claim that if you don’t believe in Jesus that you are going to Hell. These claims cannot both be right.

Either way, billions of people are going to Hell if there really is a “god” and the Bible or Koran are correct.

A more important question: Why is the “god” portrayed in these books as such an obnoxious, demonic troll? Why would a supposedly “all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving” being want to brutally torture anyone for eternity? Why would such a being, if he were to exist, allow there to be multiple religions, guaranteeing the torture of billions?

Simple questions like these lead any intelligent person to understand that God and Allah are both imaginary. It’s obviously nonsense on so many different levels.

Why would anyone choose to believe in such nonsense? Why would anyone spend their time worshiping a being who is so obviously an obnoxious, demonic troll?

74 Responses to “God/Allah: an obnoxious, demonic troll”

  1. on 21 Nov 2011 at 4:00 am 1.gods helper said …

    the reson he lets people go to hell is becouse people pick to. they sined and do not get it right with god they go there. ex. if a person kills and they dont care then they go to jall but with god he will forgive you no mather what they do

  2. on 21 Nov 2011 at 4:08 am 2.gods helper said …

    hevn there is no way to know how you get there. like elemets 113-15it is there but you people dont know . evolushon IS A THROY Just made up stuff that grow in to more

  3. on 21 Nov 2011 at 5:00 am 3.DPK said …

    Thanks for explaining it all for those of us that are too stupid to understand, helper. What would we do without you?

  4. on 21 Nov 2011 at 8:25 am 4.Julia Fernandes said …

    Dear Mr Sam Harris,

    First and foremost please say sorry for calling God, Allah, uncharitable terms such as demonic.

    What do you know about God or Allah? Who says God is to be found in the scriptures? Who said God has to be defined and confined by what is written in books?

    Who is God? God is the One who Has created this whole Universe. His essence is nothing but LOVE and LOVE.

    HE LOVES ALL HIS CHILDREN. WE ALL BELONG TO HIM. HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END.

    God is a just God. He never tortures anybody.

    Do visit my blog and read all the stories. Every single story is true and drawn from my own personal experience that reveals how God works in the most amazing ways.

    Thanks and God bless

    Julia

  5. on 21 Nov 2011 at 9:37 am 5.Zed said …

    “evolushon IS A THROY”

    It is, why did no-one tell me this. Help me out, is gravity (graveetee?) also (just) a THROY?

  6. on 21 Nov 2011 at 3:30 pm 6.Lou (DFW) said …

    4.Julia Fernandes said …

    “Do visit my blog and read all the stories. Every single story is true and drawn from my own personal experience that reveals how God works in the most amazing ways.”

    He does amazing things for you, but he won’t heal suffering amputees. He doesn’t sound like a just god to me.

  7. on 21 Nov 2011 at 5:56 pm 7.DPK said …

    He also does wonderful things for you, while allowing thousands of children to die of hunger or disease every single day. What is so special about YOU that god favors you over so many others?
    You are not only delusional, you are highly narcissistic.

    I’m going to rite a booke on the throy of gravatee and showe how its kompetly rong. Anybudy who no’s GOD also no’s onlee HE in his GRATENESS, makes gravatee. Yous are all so dum to not no that.

  8. on 21 Nov 2011 at 6:39 pm 8.Lou (DFW) said …

    4.Julia Fernandes said …

    “God is a just God. He never tortures anybody.”

    Then the biblical story of god sending Jesus to be tortured to death on the cross is not true? Do you want to split hairs over the idea that god sending Jesus to be tortured is not the same as him actually doing it? Is the fact that god allows millions of innocent children to die of disease, famine, and war not torture?

    Not only does your god torture, but he does so manically.

  9. on 21 Nov 2011 at 6:58 pm 9.DPK said …

    “Not only does your god torture, but he does so manically.”

    What about the passover story when he sent the angel of death to kill the first born male child of every egyptian family? Did that not happen, or was that not torture? I’m so confused…………

  10. on 21 Nov 2011 at 10:26 pm 10.Zed said …

    The Skeptics Annotated Bible has a whole page dedicated to biblical torture. One can only presume that Julia is reading some kiddie version full of fluffy animals and the like. Perhaps she’s never actually read the bible, or maybe she’s just making stuff up.

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/torture.html

  11. on 21 Nov 2011 at 10:57 pm 11.Xenon said …

    “You’re all aware of course that the Koran exists and claims to be the perfect word of the creator of the universe. You are aware that once having heard this possibility and rejecting it, you are all going to hell for eternity.”

    Sam, you actually are not accurate but let us assume you are for arguments sake. But what is your point? How does this impact the truth claim of Jesus?

    If they are both false, why waste your life? Do you feel you calling is an evangelist for atheism?

    How about another red herring. You are aware if you receive no oxygen for the next 15 minutes you will receive brain damage?

  12. on 21 Nov 2011 at 11:48 pm 12.DPK said …

    Actually Sam has it exactly right:

    What does Islam say about non-believers?

    Summary Answer:
    There is no place in the Quran where Muhammad commands Muslims to love people of other religions. By contrast there are at least three dozen verses that tell Muslims to fight against non-Muslims and about 500 that speak of their place in Hell. They are from each period in Muhammad’s life, scattered across 87 of the Quran’s 114 chapters.

    To put this in perspective, nearly one out of twelve verses in the Quran says that Allah hates non-Muslims to the extent that he will torment them for eternity in horrible ways. The Suras that make reference to this comprise about 95% of the Quran’s total volume. If Allah creates infidels merely to fuel the fires of Hell, then there is little reason for Muslims to believe that such lives are of any worth in this world either.

    The Quran:
    As mentioned, there are nearly 500 verses from 87 Suras that speak of Hell. This is just a sample:

    Quran (40:71-72) – When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned

    Quran (22:19-21) – But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

    Quran (4:56) – Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

    Quran (56:92-94) – But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

    As to what regard Muslims are to show for those who don’t believe, the Quran says to be ruthless toward them, since they are going to Hell anyway:

    Quran (9:73) – O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

    Quran (66:9) – O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.

    Quran (8:55) – Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve
    Quran (9:30) – And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah… Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

    Quran (4:52) – Those (Christians) are they whom Allah hath cursed…

    Quran (4:47) – O you (Jews) who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.

    Quran (5:59-60) – This verse begets the infamous belief on the part of some Muslims that Jews are descended from swine and apes, since it says that wicked Jews (at least) were transformed by Allah in the past. (See also 2:64)

    The Quran also contains dozens of verses that specifically describe Jews in the ugliest, most hateful terms. These parts of the Quran are indistinguishable from hate literature.

    Now, what does this say about the “truth claim” of Jesus. Well, if you are too dense or deluded to see the parallel, I don’t think we can help you.

  13. on 22 Nov 2011 at 12:18 am 13.A said …

    PDK How about just posting the link and stop with the thievery.

    Unlike Harris’ assertion, we do not go to hell for knowing the truth and rejecting it under Islam. You can go to hell at the whim of Allah even if a faithful follower. You can also go to hell even if you never knew the claims of Islam.

    Atheist really should stick to what they know. Lack of…

  14. on 22 Nov 2011 at 1:19 am 14.DPK said …

    Unlike Harris’ assertion, we do not go to hell for knowing the truth and rejecting it under Islam.

    So you are saying that according to Islam, if you do not believe in Allah or follow Islam, you do NOT go to hell??? What happens to you then?

    D

  15. on 22 Nov 2011 at 4:17 am 15.Zed said …

    I must be a god as I predicted this very afternoon that it was about time that Horatio turned up and started slinging mud as is his wont. And there it is! Absolute proof. Well, as much proof as any Xian has anyway.

    By the way, Horatio and Curmudgeon were due to present evidence of their god then ran away when called out. Did they ever post anything other than excuses?

  16. on 22 Nov 2011 at 5:14 am 16.DPK said …

    “By the way, Horatio and Curmudgeon were due to present evidence of their god then ran away when called out. Did they ever post anything other than excuses?

    Nope. Surprised?

  17. on 22 Nov 2011 at 11:45 am 17.Zed said …

    “By the way, Horatio and Curmudgeon were due to present evidence of their god then ran away when called out. Did they ever post anything other than excuses?

    Nope. Surprised?

    No, but saddened.

    More and more it seems that a significant portion of the theist contributors (although it seems a portion of that are the same person) comment here solely as a means of expressing their hatred of anyone who causes them to question their delusions.

    They have no arguments, just a need to throw stones and made childish arguments simply to demonize and defame. They avoid the opportunity to defend or prove their claims, but jump in for the chance to rabidly point fingers and demonstrate their familiarity with playground behavior.

    I have a large body of theist friends. True, some of them believe that Satan exists and we’re bound to hell. But only one of them actually thinks that non-believers are evil, amoral, or express any of the stupidity that we see from the likes of 40YA-hole, Ben, Biff, Curmudgeon, Horatio, Suh, and their ilk.

    It’s the later that scare me as it shows the damage, hatred, and intrinsic violence associated with their desperation to believe. Too bad, really, as those self-same haters are the ones that will hasten the cause of religion being assigned to the trash-can of primitive and ancient superstitions where it rightly belongs.

  18. on 22 Nov 2011 at 1:13 pm 18.Xenon said …

    “But only one of them actually thinks that non-believers are evil, amoral, or express any of the stupidity that we see from the likes of 40YA-hole, Ben, Biff, Curmudgeon, Horatio, Suh, and their ilk.”

    As he calls another poster a a-hole he makes these claims. You are new here Zed so I will give you a break.

    So if these posters believe such things you can post quotes proving these beliefs. So let us see them.

  19. on 22 Nov 2011 at 2:24 pm 19.Lou (DFW) said …

    18.Xenon (AKA Hor) said …

    “So if these posters believe such things you can post quotes proving these beliefs. So let us see them.”

    Why don’t you challenge those posters to to present their evidence for god, as well “Hor’s” proof rather?

    Hor, evermore the fraud…

  20. on 22 Nov 2011 at 2:30 pm 20.Lou (DFW) said …

    13.A (AKA Hor)said …

    “PDK [sic] How about just posting the link and stop with the thievery.”

    When theists here C&P line after line of bible scripture and other religious propaganda, it’s evidence of god. But when someone posts line after line of the Quran as evidence that debunks what theists claim, then it’s “thievery.”

  21. on 22 Nov 2011 at 4:37 pm 21.DPK said …

    Yeah.. let’s follow the discourse:

    “Sam, you actually are not accurate but let us assume you are for arguments sake. But what is your point?”

    …there are at least three dozen verses that tell Muslims to fight against non-Muslims and about 500 that speak of their place in Hell…. followed by numerous direct quotes detailing how non-Muslims will burn and be tortured in hell.

    “Unlike Harris’ assertion, we do not go to hell for knowing the truth and rejecting it under Islam. You can go to hell at the whim of Allah even if a faithful follower.” (and this is a “just god?.. but that’s another argument)

    So you are saying that according to Islam, if you do not believe in Allah or follow Islam, you do NOT go to hell???

    >>>>>>>>>>Silence<<<<<<<<<<

    What’s with the propensity of the faithful here making unsubstantiated and demonstrably false claims and then refusing to even attempt to back them up? Do they think they aren’t going to get called out on their false assertions? You can pull that off from the pulpit, on TV, or in a book, but not here. Wise up.

  22. on 22 Nov 2011 at 5:50 pm 22.Observer said …

    #17 Zed “the stupidity that we see from the likes of 40YA-hole, Ben, Biff, Curmudgeon, Horatio, Suh, and their ilk.” & “will hasten the cause of religion being assigned to the trash-can of primitive and ancient superstitions where it rightly belongs”

    I hope your optimism is not sorely misplaced. There is one possible correction I would like to point out: you omitted the inert windbag Xenon in your list of rabble. But, arguably his lack of distinction most likely appropriately slots him with the aforementioned rabble “ilk”. So, you probably had it best all along. Good posts.

  23. on 22 Nov 2011 at 7:05 pm 23.Ben said …

    As he calls another poster a a-hole he makes these claims. You are new here Zed so I will give you a break.
    So if these posters believe such things you can post quotes proving these beliefs. So let us see them.

    __________________silence________________

    There will be no supporting quotes. The only ones really expressing stupid and illicit remarks are the atheist. This is why they are so immensely disliked.

  24. on 22 Nov 2011 at 7:13 pm 24.Lou (DFW) said …

    23.Ben said …

    “__________________silence________________”

    As in the resident theists replies for their evidence and “proof” that god exists.

    “There will be no supporting quotes. The only ones really expressing stupid and illicit remarks are the atheist. This is why they are so immensely disliked.”

    What makes you think that you aren’t “so immensely disliked?”

  25. on 22 Nov 2011 at 8:37 pm 25.Cleo said …

    “Why would a supposedly “all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving” being want to brutally torture anyone for eternity?”

    He does not desire to do this.. God states “He does not wish that one would perish”. This is why Jesus came, lived and died for the sins of mankind. He paid for your sins so you would not have to do so. If you reject Christ, you send yourself to hell.

    “Why would such a being, if he were to exist, allow there to be multiple religions”

    The Bible states “beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing” so you would not be taken in by false teachers. Those who stay in God’s Word and know the teachings would not be taken in by false teachers.

    John 14:6 is a great test for any belief.

  26. on 22 Nov 2011 at 9:28 pm 26.Heather said …

    I prefer to call the monotheistic god a child tyrant, because basically I am more moral & ethical than it. It really entertains me when any of the followers of monotheistic religions try to proclaim their god as peaceful & loving. To christians, I always ask if they’ve ever read the old testament. Where’s the peace & love there?

  27. on 22 Nov 2011 at 9:33 pm 27.Lou (DFW) said …

    25.Cleo said …

    “Why would a supposedly “all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving” being want to brutally torture anyone for eternity?”

    “He does not desire to do this..”

    But he does it anyway, despite your illogical, irrational, and nonsensical explanation. If any parent treated their children as your god does his, then they would be imprisoned and their children placed in foster care.

    “Why would such a being, if he were to exist, allow there to be multiple religions”

    “The Bible states “beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing” so you would not be taken in by false teachers.”

    You didn’t answer the question, to wit: why…allow there to be multiple religions?

  28. on 22 Nov 2011 at 10:12 pm 28.DPK said …

    “You didn’t answer the question, to wit: why… allow there to be multiple religions?”

    Obviously, to “test” your faith. Of course, god already knows what will happen, if you will pass or fail… but he seems to delight in the game, no? Win, you go to heaven, lose, the lake of fire… It must be boring being eternal AND already knowing everything that will happen… he has to do what he can to spice things up a bit here and there, and if it means a few billion souls cast into the pit of torment… well, that’s just how he do, yo?

    but he loves you……….
    he loves you, and he needs your money………….

    Saw the great George Carlin’s bit on religion last night on the tube. The man had a gift for putting things in perspective and still make you laugh about it.

  29. on 22 Nov 2011 at 11:42 pm 29.Cleo said …

    Heather said:

    “because basically I am more moral & ethical than it.”

    Heather this is very interesting. On what standard have you determined you are more moral than God?

    God allows multiple religions because he gives man free will. He gives you a free will to say “No God”. He speaks of your kind a number of times within Scripture. You have free will to proclaim foolishness.

  30. on 23 Nov 2011 at 12:10 am 30.DPK said …

    But he also gave me an intellect, and HE, more than anything, made me an atheist. Why did he do that? Why has he revealed himself to you, but not me? Why has he given you the ability to believe in him, but not me? Don’t tell me it’s “my choice”. One cannot just decide to “believe”. And feigning belief isn’t really the same thing now, is it? What is your position on those that claim belief in god just to avoid the possibility of eternal punishment? Will that type of belief be acceptable to god? What about those who believe in god, but don’t accept Jesus? Damned, or do they still get a pass from god? What about people like me, who is a good person, treats people fairly and with compassion, tries hard to be moral in all things, but simply cannot accept the concept of a supernatural god because; 1.. there is no evidence that such a thing exists, and 2.. what is presented as evidence simply makes no sense at all to me. Am I damned while a less moral person who goes to church every Sunday worships Jesus gets saved? Really?

    On what standard has Heather determined she is more moral than god? I suppose the “standard” that tells us all it is immoral to kill innocent children, stone people to death for trivial “sins”, permit, even promote, slavery, and rip open pregnant women. I take it you don’t agree these things are immoral?

  31. on 23 Nov 2011 at 2:57 am 31.Zed said …

    Cleo you said If you reject Christ, you send yourself to hell.

    Let’s look at the Quran 2:6-7 “As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.” Familiar, isn’t it?

    I don’t think you’ve explained how you know that the Bible’s version of god is correct. Again, how do you know this?

    Let’s look at Satan. Arguably, he’s got one over on god. After all, in your stories, he was able to convince Eve to eat the apple. God’s punishment and anger strongly suggests that he was surprised by this (not omniscient), else he’d have foreseen it and prevented it, or given Eve the ability to discern evil, which she didn’t yet have.

    So, how do you know that Satan hasn’t presented the bible to you to lead you astray, and that Allah is the true way to heaven? After all, if you’d been born in the middle east, your views would be switched.

    So, tell us also, what proof do you have that the Quran is falsehood and that the bible is true?

  32. on 23 Nov 2011 at 2:58 am 32.Zed said …

    HTML fail above, my bad.

  33. on 23 Nov 2011 at 4:13 am 33.DPK said …

    I’ll wager she has no proof, no reason. Faith is believing in the absence of evidence, or even common sense. The fact that it is considered by many to be a virtue is one of humanities greatest embarrassments.

  34. on 23 Nov 2011 at 6:05 am 34.Zed said …

    Cleo said:

    The Bible states “beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing”

    You quoted that, so one presumes that’s meant to be verbatim. Are you sure you are actually quoting the bible correctly? A quote is different from paraphrasing.

    If you tell me that the bible says something but when I read it you’re not being accurate, perhaps you are also not being accurate in your other statements? Perhaps Satan has adjusted your memory so that you won’t go to heaven?

  35. on 23 Nov 2011 at 6:36 am 35.Severin said …

    25 Cleo
    “This is why Jesus came, lived and died for the sins of mankind.“

    I would appreciate to hear a deeper analysis of Jesus’ “comming, living and dying for the mankind”.
    I do not understand it at all!
    WHY did Jesus „lived and died for the sins of mankind“?
    Was he a volunteer, or someone sent/asked/ordered him to “live and die for the mankind”?

    Then, more importantly: to „live and die for something“ means to try to INFLUENCE (change) things you are living and dying for, under high price of your own life. One has to have GOALS to achieve if he lives and dies for something. There must be a PURPOSE of such a decision (hey, to live and to DIE for something!).

    WHAT EXACTLY were Jesus’ goals?
    WHAT was his intention to do with his “living and dying for the mankind”?
    To do WHAT? To change WHAT?
    WHAT was the purpose of his act?
    WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED after Jesus “lived and died for the mankind”?
    WHAT EXACTLY CHANGED after his death?

    People stopped sinning?
    Sinners stopped going to hell?
    Ex-sinners from hell were pardoned for their sins and were transported to heaven?

    WHY, PRECISELY, did Jesus live and die for?

  36. on 23 Nov 2011 at 6:10 pm 36.Cleo said …

    DPK, how do you determine or KNOW what is a “trivial” sin?

    Heather I would still like to hear your input on how you KNOW you are more moral than God.

  37. on 23 Nov 2011 at 7:26 pm 37.DPK said …

    I think planting your field with more than one crop, wearing 2 or more different types of cloth as clothing, working on the Sabbath would certainly qualify as “trivial” sins, especially when the prescribed punishment is death. I also don’t think homosexuality is a sin at ALL.
    I take it you disagree?
    Have you ever done any work on a Sunday?
    Have you ever been disrespectful or rebellious towards your parents? Have you ever eaten lobster or shellfish? If so, do you consider them grievous sins punishable by stoning?
    Tell us what you think Cleo? Are you going to fall back on the mind numbingly stupid argument that WHATEVER god does is moral, because he is the source of morality? That’s a convenient catch 22 that no sane person can actually buy into. A 5 year old can tell you that it is immoral to stone someone to death because they are gay, or because they work on Sunday. They don’t need a holy book to figure it out either.

  38. on 23 Nov 2011 at 8:04 pm 38.Cleo said …

    DPK

    Your opinion justifies what is trivial and what is not? You are the one to make the call? Would that be the KNOWING for trivial vs major?

  39. on 23 Nov 2011 at 8:24 pm 39.DPK said …

    All morality comes from within. So does yours. You know it is wrong to stone someone to death for homosexuality or adultery, so you don’t do it, even though the bible says you should. You know it is wrong to lie or steal, so you agree with what the bible says. But you also know that there are times when it IS moral to lie, or even steal, and yes, even kill. YOU make that judgement… based on what???? Your own internal sense of right and wrong.
    The bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” But YOU know that if someone is threatening your life, or the life of another, you are morally justified in killing them in defense. Don’t you? Where does THAT knowing come from?
    You also know that it is not morally right to slaughter children, or to keep slaves…. both things the god of the bible is clearly ok with. YOU decide what is right and what is wrong.
    Don’t be silly.

  40. on 23 Nov 2011 at 8:42 pm 40.Lou (DFW) said …

    38.Cleo said …

    “Your opinion justifies what is trivial and what is not? You are the one to make the call? Would that be the KNOWING for trivial vs major?”

    Assuming you are referring to “sins,” then it’s an easy answer – there are no such things as “sins.” Whether they’re trivial or not is irrelevant. A “sin” is just as imaginary as the religion to which it belongs.

  41. on 23 Nov 2011 at 9:49 pm 41.Cleo said …

    So if morality just comes from within you are just a product of your culture, right DPK? So it is moral for terrorist and others to murder, rape and torture in other cultures like post-war Iraq since their inward morality states it is OK?

    So then your argument would be nothing is immoral. Everything is OK as long as it comes from within?

  42. on 23 Nov 2011 at 9:54 pm 42.Lou (DFW) said …

    29.Cleo said …

    “Heather this is very interesting. On what standard have you determined you are more moral than God?”

    The same standard that you believe this:

    “God allows multiple religions because he gives man free will. He gives you a free will to say “No God”. He speaks of your kind a number of times within Scripture. You have free will to proclaim foolishness.”

    You are both deluded. THAT is your “standard.”

  43. on 23 Nov 2011 at 10:31 pm 43.DPK said …

    No, morality is relative, and there are always going to be “differences.”
    Let’s look at it this way… the terrorists you spoke of think their morality comes from god. They think god wants them to blow you up because you pray to a different invisible man than they do. Does it?? How do you KNOW?
    Now, if I, or you, found out where these people were hiding, building bombs and plotting to rape and kill people, would we be moral to bomb their camp and kill them, or let them continue doing god’s work?
    Would that moral justification come from god.. or you? How do you KNOW? How do you KNOW their god isn’t the real one and he actually DOES want them to kill you for not believing?
    It just isn’t as simple as you try to make it out to be. It IS a product of human society, and social interaction, and social norms… always. One person looks at mercy killing as evil, another looks at it as kindness and compassion. Can it be both? Morality in warfare ALWAYS depends on which side you are on. The Catholics say it is immoral to use condoms… most rational people say condom use helps prevent the spread of AIDS… which is it? If god is the absolute source of morals, is one side always right and the other always wrong?
    You are trying to put a simple answer on a complex idea.
    In any event, ALL morality, even that in the bible, comes from MAN… because MEN wrote it. The god you think authored the bible is but a figment of your imagination.

  44. on 23 Nov 2011 at 11:03 pm 44.Zed said …

    Cleo, I see you chose not to answer the other questions. Please try, we’re interested in your responses.

    As for your take on DPK’s position, well consider yours. If you’re going to down the route of your god being the provider of moral law, you’re going to slam head-first in to a form of the Euthyphro dilemma “Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?” – What is your answer to that?

    Now, your problem is that if your god alone decides what is moral, then it’s also arbitrary. Tomorrow he could declare eating chocolate immoral and stoning babies goodness. You’d be forced to change your views on a whim.

    So, yeah, considering that I doubt DPK would smote someone on a whim, countenance smashing babies heads against rocks, or engaging in genocide, he’s probably a whole lot more consistent and realistic than your god.

  45. on 24 Nov 2011 at 12:10 am 45.Cleo said …

    “No, morality is relative, and there are always going to be “differences.”

    If morality is relative, then you have no basis to judge God, jihadist, terrorist or serial killers. They are only doing what comes from within. You are only a product of your culture DPK. Because you are just another man/woman; your version of good is no more relevant than the version of good Hu Jintao or Hugo Chavez. So how would someone like Heather be capable of judging herself more moral than another – even God?

    You admitted above there are times it is moral to lie, steal, cheat. How do you make that call? How would others who deal with you feel about these inconsistencies. You would seem to be very difficult to trust.

    Something to think about. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

  46. on 24 Nov 2011 at 12:52 am 46.Zed said …

    So, Cleo, is the way that you keep your delusion alive to simply avoid and ignore questions posed to you?

    Do you feel that if you don’t actually think about your position then you won’t be put in the awkward position of having to consider if your views are rational and consistent?

    Can’t imagine that your faith is built upon anything other than a house of cards then if you’re that afraid of having to think about what you believe.

    Something to think about indeed.

  47. on 24 Nov 2011 at 12:56 am 47.DPK said …

    Well, simply put, it comes down to a relatively simple test. Does this hurt anyone? Is it fair? Does it further the good of my fellow humans, or not?
    Of course I am a product of my culture. Is that a surprise? You are as well. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you would be walking ten steps behind a man with your face covered and your eyes averted and you would think it was god’s will. Would you be right? You could be imprisoned for speaking your mind as you have here. You would think that was the will of god… for you, it would be.

    So, what’s your point? We can’t judge the morality of god? Sure we can… just as I can judge the morality of people who treat women as lower class or who fly airplanes into buildings. Why? Because it hurts people.

    But sometimes I think it’s moral to hurt people too… so what’s the difference?
    The difference is WHY. I think it’s moral to hurt people who are trying to hurt me, or others, in order to stop them. THEY think it’s moral to kill me because a make believe god wants them to. You don’t see a difference?

    I noticed that you avoid actually answering any questions presented about the nature of morality that comes from the bible. This is perplexing. Why don’t you explain it. Is everything that god commands, or has commanded in the bible, moral? It’s a pretty simple question really… it either is, or isn’t.
    If it is, then you have the problem of explaining how ripping open the bellies of pregnant women, slaughtering men, women, and children, and stoning people to death for all manner of sins is actually moral.
    If you don’t then you have the problem of explaining how a perfectly good god can condone and prescribe immoral behavior.
    We will wait for your response. If you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously, please don’t dodge the questions again.

  48. on 24 Nov 2011 at 1:50 am 48.Observer said …

    #45 Cleo- Please do something no other theist has done on this site- defend what we unbelievers believe to the the psychopathic god of your Bible. Lou, DPK and Zed have done a good job of calling you out. Why do you side-step, duck and weave, and in general evade the questions?

  49. on 24 Nov 2011 at 2:31 am 49.Ben said …

    DPK, Lou, Zed & Observer,

    None of you answered Cleo’s questions. DPK tried but only danced. I will repost

    “You admitted above there are times it is moral to lie, steal, cheat. How do you make that call? How would others who deal with you feel about these inconsistencies. You would seem to be very difficult to trust.”

    DPK, Lou, Zed & Observer why is you morality better than Mao or God?

  50. on 24 Nov 2011 at 3:18 am 50.Zed said …

    Ben, in which post did Cleo ask me a question I didn’t answer? Are you also going to chide Cleo for avoiding everyone’s questions too? If not, then you’d be tone-trolling, so do post your rebuke.

    To your question. Which out of the 10,000 gods and 38,000 denominations of Christianity, does your question refer? Also, are we referring to a hypothetical story-book god or one that you believe actually exists? If the later, can you, first, please provide evidence of the existence of this god?

  51. on 24 Nov 2011 at 3:40 am 51.DPK said …

    I did answer the question. My morality is based on the ideas of; does it hurt anyone, is it fair, does it better the common good, and IF not, WHY? What is the motivation or justification? That is why my morality is better than Mao, or Yahweh.
    Now answer my question… Is everything that god commands, or has commanded in the bible, moral?
    You don’t need to even justify your answer, yet. Just tell us what you think.
    Why will no one answer? You say that god is the source of all morality, but you seem pretty loath to defend your statement.

  52. on 24 Nov 2011 at 5:42 am 52.Severin said …

    45 Cleo
    “If morality is relative, then you have no basis to judge God, jihadist, terrorist or serial killers.“

    If morality is not relative, it must be absolute. If it is absolute, what is its source?
    Where can I find a moral code that will tell me what is right and what is wrong to do, if I can’t decide myself?
    What/who will tell me what is moral and what is not?

    Please do not let this question unanswered. I really don’t know where to find the code of absolute morality, and need and expect help.

    I must say that I read the Bible more than once and did not find aything I would agree with there. However, maybe I missed something.
    Maybe you can direct my attention to verses that actually represent a moral code I shoud follow in my life.
    Or, maybe you can direct my attention to any other absolute moral code, to help me learning what to do with myself, when „in dubio“.
    Please!

  53. on 24 Nov 2011 at 1:18 pm 53.Ben said …

    Zed

    It is simple. When you enter into a conversation be willing to answer the posed question, not add others by changing the subject. In other words, stop trolling and stop using multiple monikers.

    DPK,

    “That is why my morality is better than Mao, or Yahweh.”

    Why DPK? Lying and cheating is the common good? It is also Fair? I don’t think so. So you think your decisions equal the common good and fairness? How arrogant. I bet Mao believed his decisions were common good and fair too.

    Now explain why Mao and Yahweh should use your version of morality if it only equals the common good and is Fair.

    Common good/Fair – Sounds like a politician’s speech. Hope! Change! Common good! Fair!

    Zed, feel free to add something.

  54. on 24 Nov 2011 at 1:19 pm 54.Ben said …

    Sure Severin:

    Matt 22:37-38

  55. on 24 Nov 2011 at 2:36 pm 55.Anonymous said …

    It is simple. When you enter into a conversation be willing to answer the posed question, not add others by changing the subject. In other words, stop trolling and stop using multiple monikers.

    Ben, do you mean, “do as I say, not as I do?”. I note that rather than admit that you were wrong you didn’t answer my question, you just made more stuff up. It’s clear that you have no proof for your proposed deity, which is why you need to attack anyone who asks you to defend your views.

    Oh well, your record speaks for itself.

  56. on 24 Nov 2011 at 2:37 pm 56.Zed said …

    Oops, that was me@55 , Z

  57. on 24 Nov 2011 at 4:34 pm 57.Severin said …

    54 Ben
    “Sure Severin: Matt 22:37-38”

    Moron!
    I did not ask for instructions whom to love, I asked for source of absolute morality, a moral code I can use in my life. Instructions about what is right to do and what is not right to do is all what I need.

    “Love your god (… whatever you do)” is all the Bible can offer as a moral code?
    Oops, it is not!
    Kill your disobedient children (but do not beat your slave to death; however you can sell your daughter if you wish, to an ugly old man, and are obligate to kill your bride when you discover she was “consumed” before she married you), all that, and more, is all also there.

    Shall I follow THAT, or is there something I missed?

  58. on 24 Nov 2011 at 5:56 pm 58.Lou (DFW) said …

    49.Ben said …

    “DPK, Lou, Zed & Observer why is you morality better than Mao or God?”

    Why do you ask such a question? I never made any such comment. You and Hor constantly lie on this blog in order to defend your delusion and attack atheists. I would think that your god-provided morality would prohibit such behavior.

  59. on 24 Nov 2011 at 5:59 pm 59.Biff said …

    Why is it atheist are so hung up on Mosaic Law. U would think the fact no Christians follow Mosaic law would be a clue

    Loving your neighbor as self is not a moral absolute? Well go figure.

  60. on 24 Nov 2011 at 6:21 pm 60.DPK said …

    Ben…”U would think the fact no Christians follow Mosaic law would be a clue…”

    You would think it would be a clue that the bible is not a source of morality… which is what we were discussing? Thank you Ben, for making the point crystal clear. Now, if you now want to claim that the bible is NOT the word of god and we should only listen to the N.T. part of it… Let’s talk about the commandment to “sell everything you own and give to the poor.” Have you done that?

    Ben….”It is simple. When you enter into a conversation be willing to answer the posed question, not add others by changing the subject.”

    Astonished, I simply can’t believe that YOU of ALL people, with the possible exception of Hor, would have the cast iron balls to say something like this…. incredible!

    Have you answered this?
    “Now answer my question… Is everything that god commands, or has commanded in the bible, moral?
    You don’t need to even justify your answer, yet. Just tell us what you think.
    Why will no one answer? You say that god is the source of all morality, but you seem pretty loath to defend your statement.”

    Uh, no? Instead you change the subject with another red herring.

    Ben…”Why DPK? Lying and cheating is the common good? It is also Fair? I don’t think so.”

    That’s because you are an idiot and a liar. I said “sometimes” it is moral to lie, cheat, steal and even kill. You can’t envision any scenario where it would be moral to lie??? hahahaha…. I hate to be a Jew hiding in Nazi Germany with you as a neighbor. “Jesus forbids me to lie, Mr. Nazi Stormtrooper… there are jews hiding in the garage next door. Now I have done the right thing by telling the truth.” You’re such an idiot. Now if the bible was an ABSOULUTE source of morality, “Bearing false witness” is ABSOLUTELY forbidden….. Your argument, not mine.

  61. on 24 Nov 2011 at 8:03 pm 61.Ben said …

    “I said “sometimes” it is moral to lie, cheat, steal and even kill.”

    Sounds like justification. Sometimes is irrelevant since we don’t know when you would do it. When is it OK to lie, cheat and steal? Taxes? the 1%? your wife?

    Biff,

    It is not that they don’t know, have been told or can easily find out why, it is just a way for them to get off subject.

    DPK has still yet to answer the questions asked him. I really don’t think he will. I will try another.

    DPK,

    I might be able to help you with your query. Do you believe animals are capable of immoral acts? Do they steal, cheat and murder?

  62. on 24 Nov 2011 at 8:14 pm 62.A said …

    DPK

    Are you really that big of a simpleton. Why would you neighbor even need to answer the Mr. Nazi Stormtrooper? Refusing to answer is not a lie. More importantly if you are a Jew why do you call yourself an atheist.

    Simpletons who cannot think on their feet deserve what they get.

  63. on 24 Nov 2011 at 10:17 pm 63.Severin said …

    A
    “More importantly if you are a Jew why do you call yourself an atheist.”

    Being a jew is not religion. It is nationality.
    It is the same as if you asked someone why does he called himself a professor, if he was a German.

    Idiot!

  64. on 25 Nov 2011 at 4:17 am 64.DPK said …

    62A…. Way to completely miss the point, and you call ME a simpelton?? hahaha…
    The point was Ben said it is never moral to lie… your answer is if I’m an atheist I can’t be a jew, so why worry about it? Did you walk to school, or carry your lunch? Idiot.

    Liar Ben… what question was asked of me that I did not answer?
    Shall we review the direct questions YOU were asked that you did not answer?

    Let’s go back to just one, and this will be the third time I have asked.
    “Now answer my question… Is everything that god commands, or has commanded in the bible, moral?”

    I’m not going to let you drag us off topic again with silly questions about animals.

  65. on 25 Nov 2011 at 3:57 pm 65.DPK said …

    Ok. Looks like once again, the theists and christians have run away from this discussion when they couldn’t change the subject.

    Why will NO ONE answer this simple question? “Is everything that god commands, or has commanded in the bible, moral?”

    It’s a pretty simple question. It only requires a yes or no answer. Why do they avoid it with silly questions about if animals have morals or how an atheist could be a jew?

    Here is the reason. Either answer, yes or no, puts them in an untenable position. If they say, “No, everything god has commanded in the bible is not moral.” Well, that’s a problem because it proves an immoral god, something they say cannot be.
    If they say “Yes, god is the source of morality and everything he does or commands is absolutely moral.” then they have the problem of reconciling the atrocities and clearly insane acts and commandments described in the bible in term that a sane person could accept as moral, which is frankly, impossible. As even Ben admits, “No Christians follow Mosaic Law.” True… well no sane ones anyway.
    Even ignoring the old testament, which is by the way, a total cop out, we still have problems. For example, Jesus said “Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and come follow me.” Is this moral? Well, maybe… if you are a single person with no dependents or such, that might be a moral and charitable thing to do, even though no modern christians, including the ones here, actually do this. But, what if you have dependents who actually depend on you to provide them food, clothing shelter? Would you be a moral person if you sold all your stuff, left your family (as Jesus also commands) and went off to find Jesus? No, you would be a crazy ass deadbeat who abandoned your children.

    So, this simple question says an awful lot about the bible as the ultimate, absolute source of morality and goodness. No wonder none of them will dare to answer the question. Instead they will change the subject, throw up red herrings, call us simpletons, and try to talk about designers and the “theory” of evolution, heaven and hell, other religions, anything else. But note… they will NEVER answer the question.

  66. on 26 Nov 2011 at 5:37 pm 66.Obvious said …

    If I believe in Islam

  67. on 26 Nov 2011 at 11:25 pm 67.Zed said …

    DPK@65 – Yes, it’s a shame when theists duck straightforward questions relating to what they previously posted. I notice that Cleo also ignored me when I posted a similar point.

    It’s sad that theists feel comfortable making their claims about morality and goodness yet when asked to explain a contradiction they either run away or change the subject, often “demanding” answers to the same straw man arguments that have been refuted on many previous occasions. Such a puzzling contradiction for a group that consistently won’t answer questions put to them.

    Oh yes, 40 or so posts further on, and Horatiio and Curmudgeon still haven’t provided their promised proofs of their god, have they?

  68. on 27 Nov 2011 at 3:25 am 68.Lou (DFW) said …

    67.Zed said …

    “Oh yes, 40 or so posts further on, and Horatiio and Curmudgeon still haven’t provided their promised proofs of their god, have they?”

    The only proof Hor has for his imaginary god is 90.

  69. on 28 Nov 2011 at 6:14 am 69.READ THIS IF YOU R RIGHT said …

    I’ve noticed that everything against this God seems to be quite . . .angry and almost defensive.Now, when someone gets defensive it’s usually because they know that they are wrong and are afraid that they are wrong. Don’t stop yet or u will prove me right and u wrong, or r u afraid to read on because u r, indeed, wrong? Keep reading. There is no need to be defensive if u r right, for, if u r right, then why do u need to be so defensive and seemingly afraid that u r wrong if u r wholly convinced u r right? If one knows one is right, then there is no need to be defensive or angry, for u r right! But, if u hav even a shadow of a doubt tucked back in the most remote recess of yor mind, one will tend to get afraid that they r wrong and cover it by being angry and defensive. DO NOT STOP NOW IF U STILL THINK U R RIGHT. Now, I know I cannot change yor mind, for it is not my place to do so, but see sum sense, will u? At least stop mocking and mistreating us Christians for u will gain nothing by treating and making fun of Christians; in fact, u will gain an ill reputation by doing so, atheists. In conclusion, Even though u do not believe in Him, may the one true God somehow bless u.

  70. on 28 Nov 2011 at 6:45 am 70.PLEASE NOTICE THIS!!!!!!!!!!! said …

    YOU HAVE SO MANY HOLES IN YOR ARGUMENTS AND BELIEF. I WISH I COULD

    CHANGE

    YOR MIND BUT I CANNOT. I WISH I COULD MAKE YOU SAVED, BUT I CANNOT.

    AND IT JUST BREAKS MY HEART SO BAD THAT I SADLY AND FRUSTRATINGLY

    CANNOT.

    BUT KNOW THIS; GOD LOVES YOU EVEN NOW. HE WOULD DIE FOR U AGAIN

    AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN ANDAGAIN AND AGAIN IF IT

    MEANT YOU WOULD COME JUST A

    SIMPLE FOOT CLOSER TO HIM. HIS LOVE FOR U AS AN INDIVIDUAL IS

    BEYOND COMPREHENSION. HE HAS U ENDURE HARDSHIPS SO THAT U MAY

    GROW TO BE BETTER THAN BEFORE. HE ALWAYS, ALWAYS HAS A PLAN FOR

    EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS

    EVEN THOUGH WE MAY NOT AT FIRST SEE IT.

    He LOVES you, man. Why do u deny the Lord your God like a child turning away from

    And refusing to see an amazing toy that’s right in front of him/her and is all he or she ever wanted?

  71. on 28 Nov 2011 at 7:59 am 71.HEY, LOU! SOME ANSWERS! said …

    Dear Lou

    For one, u r completely correct that God is not being “just”. God was not “just” when

    he sent his Son to die on the cross and give us a hope for eternal life, for all we

    Derserve is hell, for we could not hold to the Law that God gave, thus deserving

    death. ( by the way, all sins are deserving of death, even the little ones, for all the

    punishments of the laws listed in the old testament are acts of mercy, seeing as each

    sin deserves death) When Jesus did that, He was being merciful. Now, God the father

    is just.

    For God the father is the one Who made the flood to destroy all the sinful people

    beyond redemption. God the son is the one who was not just by giving us a chance

    For eternal life. In the old testament there was no jesus or God the son, only God

    The father; a perfectly just, unreachable God. Now, since we can’t have an unjust God

    Ruling the universe, God sent His one and only son; jesus to be unjust by sacrificing

    His own life and giving all who believe eternal life: completely unjust. But since Jesus,

    God’s son did the unjust, but wonderfully merciful, thing, God is still perfectly just, yet

    Still giving us a chance at eternal life! Therefore, God is, indeed, just.

    Now, the second, sin is not imaginary. Sure, we would all like it to be imaginary, but it

    Is most definitely not. First of all, let’s start with what sin is. Sin is an action that has

    Crossed the boundary of what is right. It is a way to put a title on something that is

    Not right. Now, if sin was imaginary, then killing thousands of people would be

    Considered ok. No punishments at all. We all know that is simply wrong. Therefore,

    Sin IS real,

    Since it is possible for an action to cross the boundary of what is right.

    Third of all, to add to your statement that God should not let anyone go to hell since

    It is so brutal to punish someone that way and that he does not desire to do that, well

    He doesn’t desire to do that. Like Cleo said earlier, God gives us free will so that we

    Can choose. He does give us numerous chances to choose him and does not judge

    Anyone unfairly who does not know Him. If someone has heard of God but does not

    Accept Him, then they will go to hell, even though it breaks God’s heart, but He will

    Not make us do anything; we have to choose. After all, God is more than fair just

    Giving us the chance of heaven.

    As for allowing there to be other religions, once again, God has given us free will. He

    Wants us to come to Him of our own accord, not because we are forced so that we

    Can love Him as He wants to be loved; something we cannot force. And when we

    Come to Him, of our own accord, our names will be added to the Book of Life and

    There will be celebration and enormous joy among God and the angels in heaven for

    Every single soul that is saved. You see, when we come to Him of our own free will, it

    Makes it all the better and more sincere so that every follower of God is a TRUE

    Follower.

    I hope that you read this to the end, and I hope that it helps understand God’s love

    For u and His want for a relationship with u. For He LOVES you soooo much, even

    Now.

    May God bless you in so many ways, Lou. :)

  72. on 28 Nov 2011 at 12:12 pm 72.Anonymous said …

    “At least stop mocking and mistreating us Christians for u will gain nothing by treating and making fun of Christians”

    Why? You reap what you sow, and your beliefs are so stupid that you don’t deserve anything better than being mocked.

  73. on 28 Nov 2011 at 3:45 pm 73.DPK said …

    69.READ THIS IF YOU R RIGHT said …

    “I’ve noticed that everything against this God seems to be quite . . .angry and almost defensive.Now, when someone gets defensive it’s usually because they know that they are wrong and are afraid that they are wrong.”
    You should really watch the video at this link as it addresses what you are commenting about better than I ever could.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=2070

    What you are really saying is “Why don’t you all just keep quiet in the back of the bus and don’t make trouble……..”

    Not gonna happen.
    And for the utter, irrational nonsense you posted in 71? Really, a just god who created an unjust copy of himself in order to do something he couldn’t do himself? An eternal being who died as a whipping boy for our “sins”… sins he created us to commit? He gives us free will, but everything happens according to his perfect plan?
    Have you actually given ANY thought at all to the absolute bullshit you spew forth? And you expect people to “respect” your beliefs without question or criticism? Sorry, I think you’re delusional. Why won’t you “respect” my belief and stop trying to change my mind? There is no need to be defensive if you are right. Is there?

    “BUT KNOW THIS; GOD LOVES YOU EVEN NOW. HE WOULD DIE FOR U AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN ANDAGAIN AND AGAIN IF IT MEANT YOU WOULD COME JUST A SIMPLE FOOT CLOSER TO HIM.”

    First, what does it mean for an eternal being to “die”? Nothing. 2nd, if he wanted me to come closer to him, all he’d need to do is stop all the dying… it hasn’t worked yet, and maybe, I dunno, show up? Wouldn’t be hard at all for him to convince me that he is real… if he loves me sooooo much, why doesn’t he just do that? He “showed up” all the time to people in the old testament… so what’s the problem? After all, if everything happens according to his perfect plan, why did he make me an atheist?
    D

  74. on 15 Dec 2011 at 1:32 am 74.Black wolf said …

    Im sorry, DPK, The Lord did not MAKE you an atheist, YOU made yourself an atheist. I belive, perhaps, the Lord doesnt heal amputees because they do not need to be healed. Before you all start arguing about his love even when he does not heal amputees, listen. In this day and age we have so many things, new things, in science and medicine, and yes, I as a Christian give much credit to science. We have prostetics that are almost as good as the originals now, sometimes even better. If you were hurt, but your father saw that you could carry on, and would heal, would he dote on you? Mine would be proud and encourage me, not pity and treat me as an invalid. Sometimes we dont need to be healed, but just need the help and encouragement of the ones who love us. Take a look at Bethany Hamilton, does she LOOK like she needs to be healed? No, she is as strong as ever. Our sins are our own, and our own alone, by our choices do we commit them, we are to blame for them. We are not perfect, and will never be as the human race, we are fallible, and that is no fault of the Lord, but of our own disobedience.

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