yeah, man. a convex angle once prevented me from falling off a rooftop. I *do* believe in angles.
on 22 Sep 2008 at 8:25 am 2.Anointed said …
Stop being so sarcastic, Lil Tom
I have never personally encountered angels but then, if there are demons, then there must be angels too. The reason I’m saying this is because I have heard a ‘demon’ speaking through somebody some years back. We were all sure it was a demon because I knew the victim very, very well for him to be faking his voice. He could not be faking it because this thing was strangling him almost at the point of death and it was clearly not his own voice speaking.
The day they prayed for him, he was knocked off to the ground and it seemed as if somebody was strangling him. Then this deep, strange voice started speaking through him. The strange thing was that his lips were not moving but we could hear an evil voice speaking from his throat and we were sure this was an evil being. The pastors started asking the demon his name and where he came from and it replied saying it was coming from hell.
Every time they mentioned the name of Jesus the demon would go wild and shower us with curses and threatened that we would all burn in hell. We could not actually see what it looked like but it sounded like a snake because it kept making a hisssssing sound. We also realized it was not the only one but that there were other two as well because they started speaking at the same time later on.I know this sounds like a scene from a horror movie but it was real and I was there. If there are unseen evil beings like this around us, then I do believe there are also good ones that protect us…and if Jesus is not real, why would these beings be afraid to hear his name?
Demon? What you described was someone talking dramatically.
Stage entertainers have been getting people to act like chickens for decades.
I know someone who swore that they saw me levitate approximately 2 feet from the ground – this person was scared to speak to me. I was the one who had set up the experiment. I demonstrated again and showed that I had not left the ground at all!
This is the reason we need quality data rather than hearsay and eyewitness testimony.
I understand that 75% of people who have been released from prison in the USA, based on DNA evidence, were convicted based on eyewitness testimony.
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish”.
–David Hume (Of Miracles, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, 1748)
on 22 Sep 2008 at 10:37 pm 4.lil tom said …
>if there are demons, then there must be angels too.
…and bigfoot, and the lochness monster, and alien abductions, and unicorns, and….
exactly. if one fairy tale is true, then they must ALL be true. no two ways about it. (I’m not being sarcastic this time)
on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:20 am 5.Anointed said …
Lil Tom and VeridicusX,
I’m not even going to debate with you on this one. I know what I’ve seen and heard and it’s not even debatable. You don’t debate about such things.For me to convince you, you will need to see for yourself how serious and horrifying it is when a demon is manifesting in someone and it has nothing to do with a fairytale.
Satan loves it when people think he actually doesn’t exist, that way they can be ignorant like you and continue dancing to his tunes.He gives them the impression that he is this imaginary little red devil with a fork in his hands with two little horns and a tail. He is more serious and real than you think. People don’t take him seriously because he is the ‘unseen’ enemy and he only reveals himself on rare occasions when the person who is heavily demon possessed is being prayed for deliverance.
Lil Tom, it might interest you to know that the person I mentioned above was an atheist just like you. Try going to church and let them pray for your DELIVERANCE, but I’m sure the demons inside you won’t permit it so I’ll just have to keep you in my prayers for now.
on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:45 am 6.praying mantis said …
>Iâ€™ll just have to keep you in my prayers for now.
“and dear lord, please bless lil tom so that he may find the way. please release the demons that inhabit his soul. please let him find the way to the truth that is the version of christianity that *I* believe in (please, not one of the 38,000 other interpretations of the bible, or any of those thousands of awful, non-christian religions out there. I know you exist lord, because I know you exist. thank you dear lord for making ME the center of thy universe and giving me the power to insult others by telling them I will pray for their ignorant, stupidity. oh why lord are there so many morons out there who require such earthly things as “evidence” and “rational thinking” to know your existence? what fools! oh, well lord. I’m sure you’ll show them a thing or two in that awesome hell you’ve created just for them. oh and lord, please send some more demons to my atheist friends. thank you lord. amen.”
on 23 Sep 2008 at 11:20 am 7.Anointed said …
Oh, so now you feel insulted? what about all those negative, sarcastic painful stuff on this website about Christianity? Calling Christians mentally disturbed because they believe in a God that they do not understand? Isn’t that an insult?
And the moment I say you need to be set free and you need prayers now all of a sudden I’m insulting.You should stop and think that when someone says they’ll pray for you, it actually means they care and really want to help.
Get over yourselves. You need strong prayers and I will pray for you.I will ignore your sarcastic prayer.
The way that you are presenting information is known as, “Lying for Jesus”.
You are making assertions that have no basis in verified facts and which contradict facts that we do have. (Of course it only becomes lying if someone does it deliberately).
You are not saying, “On the basis of some disputed, 2000 year old documents, I believe x”. You are not even saying, “I believe x”. You are asserting what you say.
I don’t think that anyone is denying your right to freedom of thought, speech and religious practice. We are simply saying be honest.
on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:15 pm 9.lil tom said …
when you say something like “You need strong prayers and I will pray for you.” you only show how shaky your own faith is.
If you *truly* believed in the power of prayer, there would be no need to tell somebody this. further, to one who knows firsthand the silliness that is prayer (I lived in faith for 18 years of my life), it only acts as a (rather funny) insult. If you were using a voodoo doll, would you first call up the person and say “excuse me sir, but I’m going to poke some needles into your eyes.”? probably not – unless you were merely trying to insult the person, that is.
perhaps you were counting on a kind of placebo effect whereas you tell me you are praying, then if *anything* strange happens, then surely it was the power of prayer… but if prayer had any power at all, it should certainly work without you telling me you are doing it, right?
on 24 Sep 2008 at 5:07 am 10.Anointed said …
Lil Tom, I will say it again and again…you need prayers. I’m saying it because you need to realise the condition you are in. Whether you take it as an insult or whichever, the point is I have already started praying for you while you are busy trying to reason with me(as unbelievers usually love to do).
Oh, and by the way, here is another insult…God loves you and wants to set you free and deep inside you, I know you need him and are just trying to be brave (you’re doing a very good job at it if I must put it that way)
Onto other matters,
You say you have been in the faith for 18 years of your life, well, I’ve been in it for almost all my life and I also thought it was all useless nonesense. This was because I did not search for him with all my heart. Going to church because my parents were Christians and I did not have a choice. Praying because everybody at home did it. This went on until one day I realised that enough was enough, either he revealed himself to me if he really did exist or I stop wasting my time and live my life the way I pleased and abandon the Christian upbringing I had as a child.
And the Bible says if we search for him with all our hearts, we will find him. That’s what I decided to do and he revealed himself to me in a wonderful way. He did not appear to me literally but that day I felt an unexplainable love and joy rushing through me and for me, that was enough evidence because I felt a peace I haven’t felt in ages.And no, prayer is not useless, I have prayed for a number of things and I saw results.
It may not happen anytime now, but I will pray for you and one day, one day you will surrender yourself to him and stop fighting him.
“He did not appear to me literally but that day I felt an unexplainable love and joy rushing through me and for me, that was enough evidence because I felt a peace I havenâ€™t felt in ages.And no, prayer is not useless, I have prayed for a number of things and I saw results.”
Did you ever think to wonder if the “unexplainable love and joy rushing through me” had some other explanation or cause besides “god”?
What are some of the results you have seen?
on 24 Sep 2008 at 11:40 am 14.Anointed said …
Here is a thought
About the example of other planets existing outside our world. Those planets do not have life to sustain some of our human needs such as oxygen and gravity.
Was it a coincidence that the great, big bang placed us humans on the right planet with everything we need? We all know that for some of these reasons, it is not possible for us to survive on some of those planets that are either too cold or have no oxygen. Scientists have also discovered that the position of the Earth from the sun has been “measured” so well that if it had to move a bit closer to the sun we would burn to death.
If it had to move an inch away from the sun, we would freeze to death. Everything in the universe is so well placed and organized for it to have come up by itself without an all-knowing force behind it. Look at the computer for example. It’s whole make up has been so properly and intellectually put together. If you didn’t know who invented it, would you believe me if I said it’s technical parts came together by themselves over time and finally made-up this wonderful, smart thing we now call a computer? Of course you would find it silly. So why do you believe that of the universe?
Even if (let’s say God did not exist)the question would still be there as to where this intellectual, smart ‘force’ that had so intellectually created the universe disappeared because with it’s intellect, it must have been a living force because it knew exactly what it was doing during the creation. It must exist somewhere . This force my dear friends, is who the Bible describes as God.
on 25 Sep 2008 at 3:33 am 15.lil tom said …
>Look at the computer for example. Itâ€™s whole make up has been so properly and intellectually put together. If you didnâ€™t know who invented it, would you believe me if I said itâ€™s technical parts came together by themselves over time and finally made-up this wonderful, smart thing we now call a computer?
funny you should pick the computer. the computer, while man-made is a perfect model of evolution. nobody “invented” the idea of computing. it has moved from the first system of tally sticks 37,000 years ago to the first abacus which came into the picture about 4,400 years ago, to the refinement of mathematics required for computation, to the Analytical Engine developed in the 1830′s, the ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer) developed in the 1940′s and now we see the rapid evolution of computing as it becomes faster, more powerful and smaller every month these days.
surely somebody “designed” the machine you are currently using, but to say that it had a single, “intelligent designer” is pretty silly. even more-so to compare a computer with the uni/omni-verse.
>even if (letâ€™s say God did not exist)the question would still be there as to where this intellectual, smart â€˜forceâ€™ that had so intellectually created the universe disappeared because with itâ€™s intellect, it must have been a living force because it knew exactly what it was doing during the creation. It must exist somewhere . This force my dear friends, is who the Bible describes as God.
haha. another great example of complete intellectual dishonesty. read your own assertion! clarified it sounds something like: “assuming god does not exist, we are still left with many questions. therefore we can be certain that the God of Abraham* created the universe.”
*certainly it couldn’t have been any other one of the millions of gods that humans have come up with…
if you are willing to look at the question honestly, putting a creator into the equation simply adds one more thing that would have had to have been “designed” or “created”. without fail, every creationist I have ever encountered fails to explain this obvious problem of INFINITE REGRESS! creationism explains *absolutely nothing*. indeed it just requires much supernatural belief, which is unethical and unreasonable.
on 25 Sep 2008 at 8:05 am 17.Anointed said …
I gladly and thankfully accept your correction about the computer’s developments but somehow you know that my argument is not all nonesense because there’s some sense in the example I have given.
The fact that I believe in God does not mean that I do not appreciate or accept what Scientists have discovered. I believe Scientists are used by God to make us understand our world better and I don’t have a problem with their discoveries. Everything that Scientists have discovered concerning the Earth and the universe as a whole is TRUE and I’m not denying that.
But there is still one unanswered question in regard to our universe and that is it’s beginning.Even Scientists do not have an answer to how the world came about except to rely on theories that do not add-up.
Scientists have put the rest of the “puzzles” of the universe together but the most important one is still missing. The theory of evolution and the great big bang simply do not fit in the puzzle no matter how hard you try to squeeze them in. Something cannot come out of nothing or out of the blue without an “all knowing”, powerful, intellectual mind involved.
Your denying of God says this intellectual mind involved in putting the universe together does not exist.You can at least give this intellectual mind some credit by acknowleding it’s involvement in the make up of the universe. Even if you should say it exists but it is not the God of the Bible, that would be better than totally denying it’s involvement and crediting it to evolution and the big bang which do not make sense.
So please do not try and change the subject by focusing on my “mistake”. I may not exactly be good at knowing how the computer came about in detail but this I know for a fact-the computer did not make itself.
Even if it was a process over the years, human knowledge and involvement took place in the process. We can still argue that a great intellectual mind or minds have put this thing together over the years, even if it was over a period of time.The point here is still that for the computer to be what it is today, it required human involvement. Process or no process. Evolution or no evolution. Human involvement was required in the process.So my argument still stands.
Let me put all my “foolish” Christian spiritual,beliefs aside right now and reason with you at your level.You want us to talk “sense and logic”? then please answer the question.
How can the universe, as organized and perfect as it is, appear all by itself without an all knowing intellectual mind involved?
> Something cannot come out of nothing or out of the blue without an “all knowing”, powerful, intellectual mind involved.
Remember what I said about lying for Jesus? You know this how?
If everything requires an all knowing, powerful, intellectual mind – whose mind caused “God” to exist and whose mind caused “God’s God” to exist and so on ad infinitum?
Virtual particles are understood to appear and disappear from the vacuum *all the time*. You might also want to look up the concept of “spontaneous broken symmetry”.
Needless to say, there is plenty of evidence of “something out of nothing or out of the blue”. The physical theory and the mathematics do not require any disembodied, all knowing, powerful, intellectual minds.
> How can the universe, as organized and perfect as it is, appear all by itself without an all knowing intellectual mind involved?
Let’s change the words “the universe” to “reality” and see if your question still makes sense. Does it?
How can you imagine that reality could be created by an *unreal* omniscient, powerful, intelligence?
on 26 Sep 2008 at 11:50 am 19.Anointed said …
“How can you imagine that reality could be created by an *unreal* omniscient, powerful, intelligence?”
It’s pretty simple, really. First all, it’s only in your opinion that God is not real.You know by now that you and I are not sitting around at the same fire when it comes to the existence of God so your argument of how can something that is not real create reality falls flat. Because you do not believe he exists, it will be difficult for you to “imagine” that he created the universe simply because you don’t believe he exists. I on the other hand, believe and KNOW he exists.
You still have not answered the question.I understand your view of how something that is not real can create reality but then what created reality?. And don’t give me that argument of “it is possible for something to come out of nothing”. It still does not make sense. Something cannot come out of nothing without something else influencing or causing it especially something as big and organised as the universe and that IS REALITY!
If you say it’s possible (especially considering the fact that nature falls in place so perfectly as if following orders from an unknown force) then it’s YOU who’s being unrealistic. Look at the reproduction process. It’s like the hormones are following orders on what to do to create new life. Everything is so systematic that it’s HARD TO IMAGINE these things happen on THEIR OWN without an intelligent mind having given these instructions.
It’s one thing for particles to come together and form something useless and it’s another when the process is in a systematic, perfect order and comes up with a job well done.
Please consider how your own body functions. You put food in your mouth, your teeth are ready to chew it, when this job is done, your throat has a “pipe” that receives this food and takes it down to your stomach were it is crushed into smaller pieces and the vitamins are distributed to various parts of your body. The waste is taken to another “section” that deals with waste material and you know what happens next.You want to tell me that this whole process happens by chance without an all knowing “something” having originally organized it? What type of reality is that? You did not give me a satisfactory answer. Want to try again?
> First all, it’s only in your opinion that God is not real.You know by now that you and I are not sitting around at the same fire when it comes to the existence of God so your argument of how can something that is not real create reality falls flat. Because you do not believe he exists, it will be difficult for you to “imagine” that he created the universe simply because you don’t believe he exists. I on the other hand, believe and KNOW he exists.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
> You still have not answered the question.I understand your view of how something that is not real can create reality but then what created reality?
Don’t you get it? The *question itself* is nonsense. The question is meaningless. Or, to put it another way, it is *impossible* that reality has any creators.
> Something cannot come out of nothing without something else influencing or causing it especially something as big and organised as the universe and that IS REALITY!
Please look up the concept of “infinite regress”.
If it is necessary that everything have a preceding cause then there are an infinite amount of preceding causes *before* this moment. Therefore, we don’t exist and we have not been having this conversation.
If what I’ve just said is nonsense, then it is only because I am restating your idiotic assertion.
> If you say it’s possible (especially considering the fact that nature falls in place so perfectly as if following orders from an unknown force) then it’s YOU who’s being unrealistic.
> Look at the reproduction process. It’s like the hormones are following orders on what to do to create new life. Everything is so systematic that it’s HARD TO IMAGINE these things happen on THEIR OWN without an intelligent mind having given these instructions. …
Your argument from design has been refuted innumerable times. You may have heard of evolution?
If a god is needed to create something that has structure and order, then who created the god that created that god? (Hint: infinite regression here means that nothing exists).
If you decide to give reality a go and you need emotional support you can check out http://de-conversion.com. There are lots of ex-Christians there and lots of helpful articles.
Of course, there are people here who would be happy to answer any genuine questions you have.
on 26 Sep 2008 at 1:44 pm 21.MJP said …
VeridicusX, evolutionism has a little problem with infinite regression as well.
> VeridicusX, evolutionism has a little problem with infinite regression as well.
I’m pleased that you’ve raised this little problem. It’s something that has gone unnoticed by some of the best minds on the planet. People from all sorts of religions and none, (including Christianity), and people from different branches of the sciences. It’s gone unnoticed for 150 years! Unnoticed, that is, by everyone except you and me.
Please point out the infinite regression to make sure that we’ve noticed the same thing.
How about we co-author a paper and submit it to some science journals?
on 26 Sep 2008 at 2:56 pm 23.MJP said …
My observation is a relatively simple one: Most Evolutionary models show that all living things evolved from a single-cell organism. This begs the question as to where that organism came from, to which many theories work their way back to a “big bang” of sorts, again begging the question of what caused this event, to which evolutionists have several more answers, and so on…infinite regression.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by bringing up infinite regression, but my point is that no matter what “theory” you believe about the origin of man and the world, you have to accept it by faith. It is impossible to execute the entire scientific method on any theory of origins (i.e.- test the hypothesis). In my opinion, infinite regression ‘forces’ faith. I personally believe that the God of the Bible created the universe ‘ex nihilo’ (out of nothing).
I’d be interested to hear what your take is on this.
Thanks for expressing your understanding of the issues.
> … Most Evolutionary models show that all living things evolved from a single-cell organism. This begs the question as to where that organism came from, to which many theories work their way back to a “big bang” of sorts, again begging the question of what caused this event, to which evolutionists have several more answers, and so on…infinite regression.
You are right in suggesting that one thing often leads to another, but we already know that infinite regression is impossible. So it is untrue to think that there could be an infinite regress of “answers”.
> I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by bringing up infinite regression, but my point is that no matter what “theory” you believe about the origin of man and the world, you have to accept it by faith. It is impossible to execute the entire scientific method on any theory of origins (i.e.- test the hypothesis). In my opinion, infinite regression ‘forces’ faith. I personally believe that the God of the Bible created the universe ‘ex nihilo’ (out of nothing).
Faith is for children and the gullible. Adults don’t have to accept anything on faith. (I learnt this the hard way).
It is time that we all learned to ascribe logico-mathematical truth values to information. ‘x’ has a high probability of being the case, ‘y’ has a low probability, ‘z’ is false and so on.
There is no need, as far as I can see, for beliefs. If something is true, it is true whether I believe it or not. Children need to believe things in the interests of survival, adults do not.
You probably belong to a faith community where believing things in the absence of evidence and contrary to the evidence is valued. In my community that is known as self-deception and when you assert these deceptions to others that is known as lying. (I haven’t observed *you* doing this, of course).
Your beliefs about the Bible and it’s “God” have already been proven false time and time again, so that theory of cosmology is out of the question. (You may want to research why so many people say that the Bible contradicts reason, morality, the facts and the evidence, and itself).
The math and the logic already show that the universe does not have to be ’caused’. There are already hypotheses that describe the dawn of the universe solely in terms of the known behaviors of nature. No faith required.