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Christianity &Islam &Judaism Thomas on 23 Oct 2011 12:31 am

A good comment, and a reason why no thinking person can believe in God

This argument was made by DPK in a comment on this thread:

I have friends that I communicate with on a professional discussion forum who are devout Christians.

A while back their youngest child became seriously ill, and they took to the boards begging for people to pray for him. The exchange went something like:

“Our 8 year old Timmy is in the hospital with pneumonia. His fever is very high and the doctors are very concerned. Please everyone… pray for him.”

Of course all the other devout Christians started praying, adding them to their prayer groups and offering up special requests to god on Timmy’s behalf.

Next day the message was, “Timmy is worse today, his fever spiked at 104 last night, and they had to put him in a cooling blanket to bring his fever down. Today the doctors are changing his antibiotics in the hope they can better fight the infection. PLEASE, pray HARDER!”

And, of course, the faithful responded with promises to redouble their praying activities.

That night, “The prayers WORKED!!! Timmy’s fever is down to 101 and he is asking for something to eat. He is getting better!!! Thank you all and PRAISE GOD!”

What the hell?

When I hear these kind of stories I always picture St.Peter coming to god and saying… “Little Timmy is circling the drain, Lord. He’s got pneumonia and is spiking a dangerous fever. Some prayers are coming in for him.”

God repiles, “I KNOW Peter, who do you think GAVE him pneumonia?? Now, how many prayers have their been?

Peter: “958, so far Lord. Seems like a lot of people care about little Timmy.”

God: “Pffft… if that’s all, Timmy’s worm food. I’m going to make him worse. Tell you what, if the prayers top 2000, I’ll make him better. Otherwise, tough shit for Timmy…. hahahaha”

Peter: “Ok, I’ll text you if we hit 2000. By the way, there’s this orphanage on fire in South America… 200 kids are trapped inside.”

God:… “50,000… I don’t wanna hear about it until the prayers hit 50k dude. Don’t waste my time….”

The stupidity of people who believe that God answers prayers defies imagination. How can any intelligent person believe something that is so obviously ridiculous?

253 Responses to “A good comment, and a reason why no thinking person can believe in God”

  1. on 23 Oct 2011 at 5:10 pm 1.DPK said …

    Wow.. I made a featured post!
    Think I can get a book deal now??
    D

  2. on 24 Oct 2011 at 1:18 am 2.Anonymous said …

    Good post. Now cue the anecdote about someone who had their hand blown off by an IED, the surgeons amputated the limb at the elbow, the local church held a prayer rally and, miraculously, a new arm grew overnight.

    Oh wait, that’s exactly what doesn’t happen. Ever. Isn’t it?

  3. on 24 Oct 2011 at 1:36 am 3.MrQ said …

    Pray for someone to get better and they do – xtians then say isn’t god great and merciful and loving.
    Pray for someone to get better and they die – xtians will say they’re in a better place now (and isn’t god great and merciful and loving)
    I call it Lo-god-ical Reasoning (TM).

  4. on 24 Oct 2011 at 1:57 am 4.Anonymous said …

    Which brings us to another nonsensical point about prayer.

    If god knows best, and “decides” to do whatever he was always going to do in his omniscience – sending someone to a “better place” – what is the point of prayer?

    “Dear god, please cure this person unless, of course, you’ve decided they should become brain-damaged through fever, or you’ve decided they should die, or be crippled, or whatever. So, basically, dear god, do whatever you were always going to do and ignore us peasants as you always do”.

    Seriously. WTF. Not only doesn’t prayer work, with biblegod as described, it can’t work.

  5. on 24 Oct 2011 at 2:19 am 5.DPK said …

    It does seem nonsensical to entreat god to change his mind when you already acknowledge he already knows what is best and everything happens according to his plan. With that in mind, if you get cancer, why would you seek medical treatment? Why wouldn’t you just accept that you having cancer is part of god’s plan and accept it with joy?
    I always ask those of faith, when they tell me about their faith in god’s plan and his loving mercy in answering prayers, “When YOUR kid is sick, do you take him to a doctor, or a minister?” They usually look offended and tell me I just don’t understand how god works. No shit.

  6. on 24 Oct 2011 at 3:04 am 6.Anonymous said …

    Well, how does this god business work? I’ve asked but can’t get a straight answer.

    Case in point, a couple having trouble conceiving a second child. Now, the astute observer might consider the fact that one of them had a medical problem that was related to fertility as a factor but, no, whenever another child was mentioned it as followed by “god willing” or “according to god’s will”. So, I asked them, how does it work when they are trying for a child but god is saying no?

    Does god, I asked, operate at the egg level? Does he prevent an egg being fertilized? Does he prevent the implantation in the uterus? Does god have a quota for viability?

    Or, I asked, does god fiddle with the sperm? Maybe he controls the path of each individual little swimmer? He’s god, after all. Maybe he nudges them in and out of position? Something like a cosmic pinball game. Tilt!

    I was serious, mostly. However, this couple were not amused. Very, very, not amused.

  7. on 24 Oct 2011 at 3:24 am 7.Anonymous said …

    In the post above, I was inquiring if my Christian friends believed that their god’s plan operated at a cellular level. That would mean that the actions of every cell of every creature ever existing would be planned to the minutest level.

    But then, that’s not sufficient. Assuming their god being in control, the plan would need to extend down to the molecular level at least. Think about someone dying from anaphylaxis following an allergic reaction, for example. I find it odd that people that propose such order to the universe don’t stop to consider the implications of their claims.

    That’s one hell of a controlling personality. Or, it’s a figment of some ancient desert dweller’s mind.

  8. on 24 Oct 2011 at 3:31 am 8.A Christian Guy said …

    This “argument” provides no argument. If this was a try out for a debate team, and that was your argument, they’d kick you out of the room without a backwards glance. Commentary was provided on prayer, which was basically the following,

    “Wow, that person prayed and their kid got better. but hey! someone else prayed and theirs didn’t! God must be real!”

    followed by

    Gee, aren’t Christians stupid.

    Seriously, if that’s the argument here, pretty sad.

  9. on 24 Oct 2011 at 3:43 am 9.DPK said …

    It’s not an argument. It’s an observation.

    There is no “argument” that prayer doesn’t work.. that is a measurable FACT. So, there is nothing to debate.

    If you disagree, let’s hear your evidence in support of the efficacy of prayer.

    And please don’t respond with the tired old “god cannot be tested”. Every prayer is a test, whether you intend it to be or not. If god, in fact, refuses to be tested, then that would prevent him from answering ANY prayers, because to do so would provide data, and that would amount to a test result.

  10. on 24 Oct 2011 at 3:55 am 10.DPK said …

    “Assuming their god being in control, the plan would need to extend down to the molecular level at least.”

    Bad shit, apparently, happens when god is distracted helping NFL players score touchdowns… and other important stuff like that. Other than that, he’s got it all under control.

    Lighting rods on churches??? What’s THAT all about? Seems like an obvious display of a severe lack of faith to me….

  11. on 24 Oct 2011 at 8:41 am 11.Anonymous said …

    This “argument” provides no argument. If this was a try out for a debate team, and that was your argument, they’d kick you out of the room without a backwards glance.

    A Christian Guy, as has been explained, it’s not an argument; it’s a fact that prayer has absolutely no measurable effect whatsoever on events in the real world. None. Zip. Nada.

    Now, to your observation. Assuming you were trying out for the debate team, what would be your argument FOR the existence of your god? So far every argument I’ve seen phrased here is made in terms of things we don’t yet know (God of the gaps / argument from ignorance). These are not positive assertions for the supernatural.

    So, please, rather than the typical theist “Well, that doesn’t disprove god” response, please let us finally see an argument for god. Any god. You pick the god but, please, also tell us which god you are arguing for.

  12. on 24 Oct 2011 at 9:01 am 12.Anonymous said …

    It’s interesting, that prayer provides one of the few testable attributes of the theists belief system so it’s also interesting to see how prayer gets surrounded in excessive special pleading just to make sure it becomes immune to criticism.

    For example, Here is an example of the complete and utter nonsense Christians spout in order to defend the failure of prayer. In particular, note the following:

    [As we pray, our trust in God should allow Him latitude to answer however He deems best. We especially need trust in God should it become apparent that the answer to prayer is...].. request denied

    This is total horseshit. It’s a contradiction. You cannot be mentally sound and believe both that (a) god answers prayers when you (b) espouse that god does whatever he thinks is best. i.e. whatever he wants and whatever he was going to do had you not asked him to intervene. That’s truly delusional.

  13. on 24 Oct 2011 at 4:26 pm 13.DPK said …

    True… that position is no different from saying: “The fact that god does not answer prayers and only does things according to his plan is proof positive that god always answers prayers.”

    Christian Guy, how far would you get with the debate team on THAT premise? You might make it at Liberty… but I think even Notre Dame would laugh you off the podium.

  14. on 24 Oct 2011 at 6:56 pm 14.Lou (DFW) said …

    12.Anonymous said …

    “For example, Here is an example of the complete and utter nonsense Christians spout in order to defend the failure of prayer. In particular, note the following:

    [As we pray, our trust in God should allow Him latitude to answer however He deems best. We especially need trust in God should it become apparent that the answer to prayer is...].. request denied”

    That’s what happened in when Texas Governor Rick Perry did “proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas. I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on those days for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal way of life.”

    God’s answer was a resounding NO!(or there is no god that answers prayers) Texas is still suffering from the worst drought in its recorded history.

    And just how does Perry think god can rebuild communities?

  15. on 24 Oct 2011 at 7:02 pm 15.DPK said …

    And if god, in his infinite wisdom, had decided that a Texas drought was part of his master plan, why would Gov. Perry be SO presumptuous as to request that GOD change his mind???

    Really, “thy will be done” is the only prayer that would be acceptable to god, and that doesn’t really need a prayer, ’cause it’s gonna’ happen anyways…

  16. on 24 Oct 2011 at 8:04 pm 16.MegaByte said …

    CG said “Seriously, if that’s the argument here, pretty sad.”

    CG it doesn’t stop there. Go and look at the 50 proofs for God does not exist. Seriously, it is called 50 proofs.

    http://godisimaginary.com/

    These are supposedly educated individuals and yet they call these proofs.

  17. on 24 Oct 2011 at 8:16 pm 17.Come on said …

    > Go and look at the 50 proofs for God does not exist.

    OK, I looked at the first one:

    http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

    It seems straightforward – the Bible’s claims about answering prayers are all bullshit, as described on that page. It could not be made any clearer.

    If God claims to answer prayers in specific ways in the Bible and does not, either God is a liar or God does not exist. If God is a liar and God is supposed to be perfect, then that contradiction means that God (who is defined to be perfect) does not exist.

    Therefore God does not exist. QED.

    What more do you need? Your God of the Bible is clearly imaginary.

  18. on 24 Oct 2011 at 8:39 pm 18.Observer said …

    #17 Come on – Good to see another bright person shows up when the dullard Christian Guy appears. Gives one hope.

  19. on 24 Oct 2011 at 8:50 pm 19.DPK said …

    While I agree that many of them cannot be accurately described as “proof”.. (you cannot prove that an imaginary being does not exist, after all)… taken individually, and then as a whole, they present a pretty compelling argument that the current day god, like every other god, is simply a fantasy of human construct.

    Megabyte… since you seem pretty convinced that these 50 points are all fallacious, how about you enlighten us, the uneducated, and refute them for us, one by one?

    I’ll make popcorn. This should be good.

    (prophecy… he won’t answer… snarky smirk..)

  20. on 24 Oct 2011 at 9:25 pm 20.MegaByte said …

    “Megabyte… since you seem pretty convinced that these 50 points are all fallacious”

    Not needed, they are self-refuting. Tell you what, you improve the veracity of each individually then I will let you know how you have done.

    Here is the general pattern:

    I will make the case for no God.
    God does not act like I expect.
    Therefore God does not exist.

    Prophecy: DPK will not succeed.

  21. on 24 Oct 2011 at 9:59 pm 21.Come on said …

    >Tell you what, you improve the veracity of each individually

    We have already looked at the first one:

    http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

    It has been proven: The Bible’s statements about prayer are bullshit.

    How should the veracity be improved?

    Also, why don’t you admit it’s all the bullshit?

  22. on 24 Oct 2011 at 11:11 pm 22.Zed said …

    MegaByte, are you Horatio by any chance?

    You make statement such as “…they are self-refuting” yet your refuse to share this refutation with anyone. The obvious conclusion to the observer being that you have nothing.

    Why should anyone “improve” something when you’ve yet to show what needs improving? Conclusion, you’ll just respond “LOL” or “it’s self-refuting”. Are you Horatio, you argue like Horatio?

    Now, the subject of this thread is the self-evident nonsense of prayer. Lou brought up the abject failure of Perry’s 72 hour prayer rally. It’s a great example – what greater good do you think your god has planned for Texas by causing such devastation?

    Christians stack the deck when it comes to a discussion of prayer. They argue ahead of time that the outcome is yes, no, wait, or something else. In other words, they claim every possible outcome, including positions that are unfavourable, as vindications of their faith. In other words, they take the natural order of things — that which we expect to happen without supernatural intervention — and claim absence of effect equal to effect.

    So, let’s see you stop trying to change the subject. Let’s see you stop with the red herrings. Let’s see you do something that no-one else has had the gumption to do. Let’s see you prove that your god exists and that your god answers prayers in a way that could only point to a supernatural intervention?

    My prophecy. You won’t even try.

  23. on 24 Oct 2011 at 11:30 pm 23.DPK said …

    “Not needed, they are self-refuting. Tell you what, you improve the veracity of each individually then I will let you know how you have done.”

    Well, as you see, I and several others do not agree with your groundless assertion that they are “self refuting”. So I see no need to “improve the veracity.” Every statement written is, in fact, true. The only points to be debated are if they demonstrate that god is imaginary. I think they do. So, if you do not care to explain exactly WHY you think they do not, then we have nothing to discuss… so why are you here yammering?

    Here is the ACTUAL pattern from point one:
    Christians claim the Bible is the word of god.
    The bible states that god answers prayers.
    God does not, in fact, answer prayers.
    Conclusion:
    The bible is not the word of god.
    or
    The bible is the word of god, but he lies.
    or
    The god as described in the bible does not exist.

    So, which is it?

    Convince us #1 is fallacious, and we’ll move to the other 49.

  24. on 24 Oct 2011 at 11:38 pm 24.DPK said …

    So far, my prophesy seems to be holding true. We shall see, but my feeling is my clairvoyant powers will be demonstrated.

    Here is my next prediction. MegaByte will attempt to change the subject and once again try to shift the burden of disproving his imaginary friend back on me.

    MB… I have a 50 ton invisible giraffe living in my backyard that sometimes grants wishes and occasionally farts oxygen. Please prove that I don’t.

  25. on 25 Oct 2011 at 12:02 am 25.Dez said …

    A red herring is an irrelevant distraction from the issues at hand. Red herrings have the potential to distract one’s mind from cool, calm rational reflection. Fortunately, you can train your mind to spot red herrings and avoid the distractions.

    Here’s an example. At the end of proof #1, the author says that Jesus was lying when he said “Nothing will be impossible for you.” We know he was lying, he says, because there are lots of things you plainly cannot do no matter how much you pray. He then concludes the reason God doesn’t answer prayers is simple: God is imaginary.

    This is just a distraction. The idea that Jesus was a liar is provocative but distracting. Even if he was a liar, it doesn’t follow that God doesn’t answer prayers; and no evidence was given for thinking God doesn’t answer certain prayers in certain contexts.

    Besides, the context of Jesus’ statement in Matthew 17 actually makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was talking about casting out evil spirits: thus, no obstacle (or “mountain”) blocking that goal is impossible to remove. He’s not saying we can turn our favorite number into a flower. I think this should be clear to a careful reader from any generation. But all of this is irrelevant, anyway. Suppose for the sake of argument that only someone familiar with first-century idioms could understand what Jesus meant. Would it then follow that Jesus was mistaken about prayer, or that God is imaginary? Of course not.

    The author takes us off course when he declares that a perfect being would not use first century idioms. That’s an interesting proposal, but it’s off course because it’s irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue on the table is whether God answers prayers, not whether a perfect being would use idioms.
    To make this clear, suppose that a perfect being wouldn’t use idioms, and suppose that Jesus did use idioms. What follows is that Jesus wasn’t perfect. That’s a very provocative conclusion to Christians, which is why it is so easily distracting. But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Jesus’ statements about prayer were accurate or whether or not there is a perfect being. That’s what’s at issue.

    But while we are distracted, there is a ready-made response to the proposal that a perfect being would never use idioms: it’s that for all we know, a perfect being might package some truths in the form of idioms to motivate people to cultivate the habit of seeking truths. To see the truth, sometimes you must avoid simple answers and search deep.
    Let’s think carefully about proof #1 and see if succeeds in showing that god is imaginary. If it does, that’s big news; we’d have found out something very interesting. We may express proof #1 succinctly as follows:

    • Premise 1: According to the Bible, if we ask for all cancer to be cured, it will be.
    • Premise 2: But, if we ask for all cancer to be cured, it won’t be cured.
    • Therefore: The God of the Bible is imaginary.

    Let’s start by thinking about the logic of this argument. Suppose its premises are true. It then follows that at least some of the Bible’s statements about prayer are mistaken. But now notice that the conclusion says more than that. It says that the God of the Bible is imaginary. How does that follow from the premises? To reach that conclusion, we need an additional premise—something like this:

    • Premise 3: If some of the Bible’s statements about prayer are mistaken, then the God of the Bible is imaginary.
    Now it’s worth pointing out that the author of proof #1 doesn’t even discuss anything like Premise 3. It appears to be a background assumption. But for the proof to succeed, Premise 3, or something like it, needs to be demonstrated. Otherwise, the argument is logically invalid: the conclusion doesn’t follow from its premises.
    My sense is that the vast majority of people would find Premise 3 implausible. After all, it seems perfectly possible for a morally perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being described by the Bible to be real whether or not the Bible itself makes mistakes. So, Premise 3 is questionable (to say the least).

    Someone might reply that perhaps “the God of the Bible” just means “the God that would exist if the entire Bible were true.” In that case, Premise 3 would be axiomatic. However, then the conclusion would be compatible with there being a perfectly good, all-powerful, and all-knowing being. And certainly any argument that’s compatible with there being a perfectly good, all-powerful, and all-knowing being is not an argument that God is imaginary.
    So, if proof #1 is indeed an argument that God is imaginary, then it relies on a dubious premise; therefore, proof #1 fails to establish its conclusion. It seems, then, that reflective truth-seekers wouldn’t be moved by it.

    We could stop here. The proof fails to establish what it claims to establish.
    But the proof fails in more ways than one. According to this proof, the Bible’s statements on prayer imply that God would cure all of cancer on account of our prayers. But the proof fails to rule out (or even consider) the following possibility: background conditions on prayer are implicit in the text.

    Consider that according to Matthew’s account, Jesus says, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.” He goes on: “not as I will, but as you will” (Matt. 26:39).

    And elsewhere, he says, “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven… your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:9-10).
    It appears that Jesus thinks prayers must be possible to answer (so, no asking for square circles). And prayers must accord with God’s will.

    Why, then, does Jesus say that “everyone who asks receives”? A standard answer, which proof #1 fails to address, is that background conditions on prayer are implicit and would have been understood by his audience.
    Indeed, that’s exactly what Jesus’ earliest followers thought: the Johanine text says that we know that we have what we ask for if we ask according to his will (John 5:14-15).
    Now it certainly does seem good for all cancer to be cured. But the crucial question is this: could God instantly cure all cancer without thereby forfeiting a higher good? That’s a difficult question, and proof #1 doesn’t even attempt to answer it.

    For all that proof #1 says, it may be that our fighting against cancer with mental and physical energy forges courage, compassion, and unique and special relationships between everlasting beings. What if some cancer allows us to become heroes in loving others? More generally, what if a finite stage of suffering can act as a means to certain everlasting bonds of love that far outweigh that suffering?
    These are admittedly complex and difficult questions, with many books and articles devoted to them. So, if someone claims to prove that suffering cannot act as a means to outweighing goods, he better have a carefully spelled out argument to back that up; otherwise, reflective truth-seekers won’t be moved. Proof #1 offers us nothing of the sort; therefore, it fails in to establish its premises.

    A Real God isn’t a Magical God
    Jesus compares faith to a seed, not a magical wand. Seeds grow with time to produce fruit. There’s a process. And some methods of cultivation are more effective than others.

  26. on 25 Oct 2011 at 12:07 am 26.Dez said …

    Come On & Zed,

    AKA the blogmaster – glad you got involved.

    I’m glad I could counter your very crude construal.

  27. on 25 Oct 2011 at 12:51 am 27.DPK said …

    Dez,
    Congratulations on a well thought out and explained response. The other theists here could take a clue from you.
    THIS is how debate is supposed to work… well done.

    Please note that I said before in post 19, that “proof” was a poor choice of terminology on the part of the author. I do not think any one of these 50 points can be looked at as “proof” that god is imaginary. Indeed, like my 50 ton giraffe, god cannot be disproved, and neither can leprachauns.

    However, your long and convoluted apology for the seeming disparity between what the bible (perhaps on the surface) says about prayer vs what we actually observe would seem to be counter, to me, anyway, to what would expect from the perfect word of a perfect being. Would the all powerful creator of the cosmos really need you to provide a 1000+ word explanation of “what he really meant? Is that logical? I think not.

    You do not seem to have a problem with the idea that the bible contains errors. I agree. To me, this is evidence that the bible is NOT the perfect word of a perfect being. D you agree?

    In any event, as I pointed out, no single argument presented there is “proof” that god is imaginary. But, taken as a whole, I think it highlights the many many absurdities of belief in a supernatural being. A body of evidence, so to speak.. all pointing in the right direction.

    Now, speaking of red herrings… let me point out yours. You have not provided us any actual evidence that god DOES answer prayers, have you? The fact apologists simply claim every possible outcome as an “answer” does not really constitute evidence. I think even you will admit that.

  28. on 25 Oct 2011 at 12:54 am 28.Anonymous said …

    Dez #25:

    •Premise 3: If some of the Bible’s statements about prayer are mistaken, then the God of the Bible is imaginary.
    Now it’s worth pointing out that the author of proof #1 doesn’t even discuss anything like Premise 3. It appears to be a background assumption.

    Definition of God:

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/god

    “A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.”

    Statements from Proof #1:

    “And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of “inspired” human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying.”

    “Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect. When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying.”

    Did you miss all of this?

    That’s a difficult question, and proof #1 doesn’t even attempt to answer it.

    Obfuscation.

    The God of the Bible is provably lying about prayer. Therefore God is not perfect. Therefore God as defined is imaginary.

  29. on 25 Oct 2011 at 1:46 am 29.A said …

    This is a verse that seems to sum up this entire blog to me.

    Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (Matthew 7:13-14).

    This argument is based of R.C. Sproul’s book, Defending Your Faith.

    How did the universe come about? There are a few possibilities.

    Life is an illusion.
    This possibility has been disproven by Rene Descartes: “Cogito ergo sum.”

    We are all self-existent beings.
    If you go back far enough, you will find that one person was the first person ever. Humans have not existed for an infinite amount of time.

    The universe was created by chance.
    I see this as being a very common argument among atheists. However, the fact of the matter is that chance can not cause anything. Chance has no causal power. Chance is not a thing.

    The universe is self-existent.
    If the universe was created by the “Big Bang,” as often claimed, there is still one question that must be answered: How did the “Big Bang” occur? From what did it come about?

    The universe was created by a self-existent being.
    Every effect must have a cause. However, there must be a transcendent, eternal being that set off this chain of effects. Can you rationally conceive the idea of an eternal, self-existent being? Deep down, logically, the thought makes a bit of sense. We see that the existence of a self-existent being is entirely necessary, due to the fact that our universe did indeed begin at one point or another.

    Our God is one who is faithful, just, immutable, unfailing, and eternally loving. He sent us His Son to die for all mankind, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), providing us a way to once again be reconciled to Him in the way we were created, in His own image (Gen. 1:27).

    So I tell you: according to the words of the one, true God, there is eternal life. “For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is inevitable for all men. The big issue is where man will go. Heaven or Hell. Hell is a real place. So is Heaven. And it will be much better and more awesome than it is often portrayed. The children of God will be able to live with God forevermore, along with all others who have been saved from their sins by the grace of Jesus Christ.

    Look back at the opening verse of this post. Which road will you take?

  30. on 25 Oct 2011 at 2:23 am 30.Observer said …

    #25 Dez- This is much better than the typical idiocy theists post here. I will have more time to get into what your wrote, but your spiel is laden with red herrings too, and is merely apologetics, as DPK pointed out above, that really says nothing, but makes loads of excuses.

    To your credit, when compared to the simple-minded idiocy of #29 A above, it is at least refreshing, and wildly better than the buffoonery of another character that goes by 40YA. Thank you for taking the time to intelligently support your lost cause.

    A howler from #29 demonstrates complete ignorance of a proof:
    “Life is an illusion.
    This possibility has been disproven by Rene Descartes: ‘Cogito ergo sum.’” Only a complete idiot would write something as insipid as this.

    #25 One more point- I have not listened/watched the 50 proofs, but it does seem that while they are not terribly formal, they do as 28 Anonymous described, seem to win using contraposition.

  31. on 25 Oct 2011 at 4:20 am 31.Heather said …

    I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO POST THIS STUPIDITY I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU TO GOD!!!!I HOPE YOU ALL REALIZE HIS TRUTH AND CHANGE YOUR MINDS ABOUT HIM…OR YOU CAN SPEND THE REST OF ETERNITY IN HELL..BUT I HOPE THAT YOU DONT SO PLEASE OPEN A BIBLE AND READ IT..THEN YOU REALLY NEED TO PRAY YOURSELF..AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FOR YOUR DOUBT DISBELIEF!!!GOD PLEASE PUT YOUR HAND ON THESE PEOPLE AND SHOW THEM YOUR WAY..AMEN

  32. on 25 Oct 2011 at 1:37 pm 32.Lou (DFW) said …

    31.Heather said …

    “I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO POST THIS STUPIDITY I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU TO GOD!!!!”

    “GOD PLEASE PUT YOUR HAND ON THESE PEOPLE AND SHOW THEM YOUR WAY..AMEN”

    Thanks Heather! You just started a new experiment that will be evidence that prayer doesn’t work. Because if it did, then I wouldn’t be posting this comment.

    Did anyone get saved by Heather’s prayer?

    Apparently, even typing in upper-case and adding multiple exclamation marks doesn’t get god’s attention.

    AMEN BROTHER!!!

  33. on 25 Oct 2011 at 2:52 pm 33.DPK said …

    HEY HEATHER !!!!!!!
    THANKS FOR YOUR CONCERN. I’M JUST FINE THOUGH !!!!
    NO NEED TO SHOUT. I HAVE READ THE BIBLE… ALL OF IT.
    HAVE YOU?
    CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?
    Ok, wait, that’s better now… damn that was loud. Anyway, I’ve asked this of many christians before, and have never gotten an answer. Why does god need me to believe in him? I mean, he needs me to believe in him so badly that he is willing to make me spend “the rest of eternity in hell” if I don’t… which, you have to admit, is a pretty awful thing to do to someone and seems to be rather un-godlike, don’t you think? Anyway, why does the all powerful, eternal creator of the universe need so desperately for me to believe in him? Seems rather pathological to me.

  34. on 25 Oct 2011 at 3:42 pm 34.Lou (DFW) said …

    30.Observer said …

    “#25 Dez- This is much better than the typical idiocy theists post here. I will have more time to get into what your wrote, but your spiel is laden with red herrings too, and is merely apologetics, as DPK pointed out above, that really says nothing, but makes loads of excuses.”

    Regardless of how long or how well thought their replies, ALL theists replies are “red herrings” unless they contain evidence of god. But, NONE of them EVER do. Why? Simple! Because there is no evidence of god because god doe snot exist. It’s that simple.

    Theist must answer one of three ways:

    1. God does not exist.
    2. Belief in god is based upon faith (imagination), not any actual evidence
    3. God is real, and here is the evidence for god. (The bible and personal knowledge is not evidence of god.)

    Any other answer is a “red herring,” including denials of Big Bang, Ambiogenesis, and evolution.

  35. on 25 Oct 2011 at 4:19 pm 35.DPK said …

    True that Lou, but you have to give some respect to someone like Dez who at least makes an attempt to present an argument in a somewhat intelligent and organized manner, no?

    I mean at least it’s not Hor with his moronic LOL’s and baseless claims.

    Dez’s position does seem to reflect the ultimate retreat to deism though… admitting that god does not really behave according to the god “model” described in the bible, but refusing to accept the possibility that he simply does not exist.

    I’ll take that over the insipid babble regurgitated forth in #29 anyday. At least he has given some thought to the subject….

  36. on 25 Oct 2011 at 4:21 pm 36.Lou (DFW) said …

    35.DPK said …

    “True that Lou, but you have to give some respect to someone like Dez who at least makes an attempt to present an argument in a somewhat intelligent and organized manner, no?”

    Yes

    “I mean at least it’s not Hor with his moronic LOL’s and baseless claims.”

    Correct – Hor is a liar and fraud.

  37. on 25 Oct 2011 at 4:22 pm 37.DPK said …

    Notice too that, as predicted, MegaByte is silent. My powers of clairvoyance are astounding.

  38. on 25 Oct 2011 at 9:56 pm 38.Anonymous said …

    HEATHER! THANKS FOR YOUR CONCERN. I HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE PRAYING FOR ME BUT THE MORE THE MERRIER!

    If it helps, several of my friends tell me that Satan, himself, has hardened my heart and made me blind to the existence of the one true god.

    In particular, they tell me that Satan uses “Science” as a tool to make it look as though god does not exist. Once I am able to understand that “Science doesn’t know everything” and that “some things can’t be proven by Science”, I’m told I’ll be able to “believe”. It seems that I need a paradigm shift where I substitute belief for facts.

    So, in your prayers, could you please arrange for me to be unaware of the thousands of years of progress made by mankind? Could you also pray to undo all my educational achievements, work-related skills and experience, and anything that might cause me to place critical thinking skills ahead of emotion?

    I’m thinking that if you can help me experience life in the manner of an uneducated, illiterate, cattle herder of several millennia ago, then I might have a better chance of “finding god”, whatever that means.

    THANKS FOR THE SHOUT OUT. LUVS YOU GIRL! XOX

  39. on 25 Oct 2011 at 10:04 pm 39.Anymouse said …

    To have a painting theorist be am artist, for there to be a building there must be a builder, for you there must be a creator. We never evolved from monkeys or anything else there is a God who created our world and the
    people.

  40. on 25 Oct 2011 at 10:55 pm 40.MrQ said …

    for you there must be a creator. We never evolved from monkeys or anything else there is a God who created our world and the
    people.

    ….and all this occurred within the past 10,000 years?

    Anymouse, I know it’s sad, but the reality is evolution works. My creator was my mom and dad…Do I need to explain? His jism met up with my mom’s egg and voila…perfection ;-)

  41. on 25 Oct 2011 at 11:04 pm 41.DPK said …

    “To have a painting theorist be am artist, for there to be a building there must be a builder, for you there must be a creator.”

    And then, to have a creator, there must be another creator, and another, and another… right?

    “We never evolved from monkeys or anything else there is a God who created our world and the people.”

    We didn’t evolve FROM apes… we ARE apes.. both apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor. Once you get past 6th grade you will learn all about it. It’s called evolution, and if it isn’t true, then your god went to an awful lot of trouble to plant an overwhelming mountain of evidence in an effort to trick us. Why would he do that?

    Now if you have some actual evidence that your magical god actually exists, we are waiting to hear it. Otherwise you are just jaws flapping in the wind.

  42. on 25 Oct 2011 at 11:23 pm 42.Horatiio said …

    “We didn’t evolve FROM apes… we ARE apes.. both apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor.”

    That is priceless. Sure they did DPK. Is curious George your spawn? To quote a well know biologist with just a little spin, – DPK I know it looks like we evolved from Apes but you must remember we did not.

    DPK want a banana? Now here is a warning because I care. If you must procreate don’t let your spawn swing from the chandelier. They are not apes!

    LOL!!

    Mr Q,

    I flipped on the light switch today. Hey! I created electricity!!!! I must apply for a patent.

  43. on 25 Oct 2011 at 11:33 pm 43.DPK said …

    Congratulation Hor, you have now definitively proved to the entire world that you are an even bigger moron than even Observer and Lou had thought. Now THAT’s saying something.

    Yes, I like bananas.

  44. on 26 Oct 2011 at 12:23 am 44.Zed said …

    Horatiio, that evolution is a fact is beyond dispute. Even most mainline churches accept evolution as a fact. You screaming and waving your undies in the air whilst having a fit only serves to make you look desperate.

    As ever, you have a chance for fame. All you need do is produce evidence that disproves evolution. You’ll be one of the most famous people on the planet. Why you don’t step up prove your point and claim your place in the history books is quite baffling.

    Meanwhile, before we disappear down the rabbit hole of “origins”, where’s your evidence for the efficacy of prayer? So far, no-one has produced any and it’s looking like no-one is going to even try.

    Speaking of bananas, href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4″>here’s the canonical example of theist stupidity in confusing human cultivation with intelligent design. Ray Comfort’s subsequent back-peddling would fit nicely into the posts on this forum.

  45. on 26 Oct 2011 at 12:45 am 45.Anymouse said …

    . My creator was my mom and dad…Do I need to explain? His jism met up with my mom’s egg and voila…perfection ;-)

    Mr. Q where did your parents and so forth come from??
    Evolution is not a FACT it is a THEORY sucha a with anything Scientist come up with!

    Dpk- what facts prove evolution to be true? I am past 6th grade and I learned evolution is a THEORY!

  46. on 26 Oct 2011 at 12:48 am 46.MrQ said …

    Hor

    I flipped on the light switch today. Hey! I created electricity!!!! I must apply for a patent.

    No, Hor, you didn’t. As most school age children already know, what you’ve done is completed an electrical circuit by flipping a switch. Likewise, when you put the key into the ignition and start the car, you have NOT invented/created an automobile – all you’ve done is start a car.

  47. on 26 Oct 2011 at 12:52 am 47.MrQ said …

    Anymouse,

    Evolution is not a FACT it is a THEORY sucha a with anything Scientist come up with!

    Errrr, ummmm, anymouse. Can you look up the definition for a theory? One I found online is:

    the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

    So, do tell, are you a believer in a young Earth? Less than 10,000 years?

  48. on 26 Oct 2011 at 1:08 am 48.DPK said …

    “I am past 6th grade and I learned evolution is a THEORY!”

    Well, you obviously have never had a high school or college level science class or you would never make such a ridiculous statement.

    Do you think a theory is something that someone just dreamed up the night before?
    The word you are looking for is hypothesis. Gravity is a theory too, as are the laws of planetary motion and the periodic table.

  49. on 26 Oct 2011 at 1:40 am 49.Anymouse said …

    What FACTS back up evolution?? I have yet to know from your brilliance.

  50. on 26 Oct 2011 at 1:43 am 50.Anymouse said …

    A theory is an unproven idea or speculation, all I have found say the same thing!

  51. on 26 Oct 2011 at 1:45 am 51.Anymouse said …

    Human evolution has never been proven!!

  52. on 26 Oct 2011 at 1:50 am 52.DPK said …

    It’s not my job to educate you. The world is at your fingertips and if you wish to wallow in ignorance, that is your choice.
    Please don’t procreate.

    You can start here if you want to learn something though:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

    http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/evolution/facts.html

    “A scientific theory is a well-supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions. Scientific theories describe the coherent framework into which observable data fit. The “theory of evolution” is the framework that best explains observed changes of species over time and best predicts the new observations that continue to be made in evolutionary biology and related sciences.

    The scientific definition of the word “theory” is different from the colloquial sense of the word. Colloquially, “theory” can mean a hypothesis, a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation that does not have to be based on facts or make testable predictions. However, in science, the meaning of theory is more rigorous. A theory is hypothesis corroborated by observation of facts which makes testable predictions. In science, a current theory is a theory that has no equally acceptable or more acceptable alternative theory.”

  53. on 26 Oct 2011 at 2:07 am 53.DPK said …

    It’s not my job to educate you. The world is at your fingertips and if you wish to wallow in ignorance, that is your choice.
    Please don’t procreate.

    You can start here if you want to learn something though:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

    http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/evolution/facts.html

    “A scientific theory is a well-supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions. Scientific theories describe the coherent framework into which observable data fit. The “theory of evolution” is the framework that best explains observed changes of species over time and best predicts the new observations that continue to be made in evolutionary biology and related sciences.

    The scientific definition of the word “theory” is different from the colloquial sense of the word. Colloquially, “theory” can mean a hypothesis, a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation that does not have to be based on facts or make testable predictions. However, in science, the meaning of theory is more rigorous. A theory is hypothesis corroborated by observation of facts which makes testable predictions. In science, a current theory is a theory that has no equally acceptable or more acceptable alternative theory.”

  54. on 26 Oct 2011 at 2:13 am 54.MrQ said …

    Anymouse

    A theory is an unproven idea or speculation

    Maybe I should have asked you to look up “Scientific Theory”. Sorry to provide the rude wake up call.

    You sound an awful lot like some young Earth creationist nutbar whack job. Again, how old do you believe the Earth to be?

  55. on 26 Oct 2011 at 2:28 am 55.Anonymous said …

    “A scientific theory is a well-supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions. Scientific theories describe the coherent framework into which observable data fit. The “theory of evolution” is the framework that best explains observed changes of species over time and best predicts the new observations that continue to be made in evolutionary biology and related sciences.

    The scientific definition of the word “theory” is different from the colloquial sense of the word. Colloquially, “theory” can mean a hypothesis, a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation that does not have to be based on facts or make testable predictions. However, in science, the meaning of theory is more rigorous. A theory is hypothesis corroborated by observation of facts which makes testable predictions. In science, a current theory is a theory that has no equally acceptable or more acceptable alternative theory.”

  56. on 26 Oct 2011 at 3:05 am 56.Anonymous said …

    Come on, who is this day and age still clings to the notion that evolution is “just a theory”? Anyone advancing that kind of nonsense deserves nothing but scorn and derision. I say ignore them, or laugh at them, but engaging them simply provides a false sense of legitimacy.

  57. on 26 Oct 2011 at 3:28 am 57.Lou (DFW) said …

    42.Horatiio said …

    “To quote a well know biologist with just a little spin,”

    In other words, what Hor posts is a lie.

    “DPK I know it looks like we evolved from Apes but you must remember we did not.”

    Please provide the source of that quote, unless it’s simply another one of your lies.

  58. on 26 Oct 2011 at 11:05 am 58.Anonymous said …

    Horatiio – Your alternative hypothesis to evolution is that a magic man in the sky created the first human from some dust and the first woman from man’s rib?

    YES! Let us see the evidence that sky daddy did it. Oh do share!

    LOL!

  59. on 26 Oct 2011 at 5:51 pm 59.Anonymous said …

    Evolution has nothing to do with prayer and its presentation here is simply a diversion for theists to avoid facing up to their inability to provide proof for their claims.

    Even if the concept of evolution was to fall flat on its face today, that would still not change the fact that there is no evidence for gods nor for the effectiveness of prayer. It’s prayer that this thread was mean to be discussing.

    Despite multiple requests, all that has been presented so far is rhetoric. Dez above introduces several red-herrings, as well as attacking a strawman version of the first proof from God Is Imaginary. Further, he commits the approach of cherry-picking from the bible and ignoring contradictory verses. He tries to dodge god’s lack of interaction by claiming without authority that god isn’t a magical god. In that case he’s certainly not discussing the omnipotent god described in the bible so using the bible to argue that case is inept.

    We’re left where we started with various claims that can be summed up as: God answers prayers yes, no, wait, or something else. Prayers that are in accordance with god’s will and plan are answered, the others are not. Because humans can’t understand god’s will, they also cannot understand his answer. God answers prayers in a way that fits in with the natural order of things.

    Therefore, because god only answers prayers in a way that is indistinguishable from god not answering prayers, god exists.

    In that case, why not simplify the equation and accept the stunningly obvious conclusion that gods are imaginary.

  60. on 26 Oct 2011 at 6:03 pm 60.Horatiio said …

    Great! We are Back to proving man evolved from apes via this primordial soup.

    What brave young man would like to prove this theory to be true?

    I got the popcorn ready. As soon as it is proven I’m in so this could be a pivotal moment.

  61. on 26 Oct 2011 at 6:14 pm 61.Lou (DFW) said …

    “58.Horatiio said …

    Great! We are Back to proving man evolved from apes via this primordial soup.”

    No, we aren’t. Why do you bother to post such idiotic comments?

  62. on 26 Oct 2011 at 6:30 pm 62.DPK said …

    Great! We are Back to proving man evolved from apes via this primordial soup.

    No, that’s already been amply demonstrated. If YOU care to go down that road again, then what we are “back to” is you attempting to prove an invisible, magical being poofed man into existence from dirt and breathed life into him through his nostrils.

    I’ve got a bigger bag of popcorn, and a 12 pack of beer, so I’m waiting…………

  63. on 26 Oct 2011 at 6:35 pm 63.DPK said …

    and Hor… I didn’t correct you before because you already had made such an ass of yourself, but your continued use of the claim that “man evolved from apes” shows how little you understand. Go back to community college and take a class on evolutionary biology and you will learn that man did not evolve FROM apes, both apes and man evolved from an earlier, common ancestor. So my statement that “we did not evolve FROM apes, we ARE apes” is true.
    But you can continue to stick your head up your ass and pretend that it smells like roses in there if you want. Just do humanity a favor and please don’t procreate.

  64. on 26 Oct 2011 at 6:39 pm 64.Anonymous said …

    “No, we aren’t. Why do you bother to post such idiotic comments?”

    He does it as a form of the Gish Gallop. The intent is that every time you engage on this subject you lose control of the conversation and attention is diverted away from the topic in hand. The flurry of comments that then follows effectively buries the failure of the theists to produce any form of evidence or coherent argument for their cause.

    In his case, his cause if better served by having you “defend” your position rather than he prove his assertion. It’s simply a reversal of the burden of proof tactic.

    Actually, I know you know this – but as long as he keeps repeating these comments then he and his ilk can keep the so-called controversy alive.

  65. on 26 Oct 2011 at 7:46 pm 65.Anonymous said …

    Horatio #58:

    Great! We are Back to proving man evolved from apes via this primordial soup.

    What brave young man would like to prove this theory to be true?

    I got the popcorn ready. As soon as it is proven I’m in so this could be a pivotal moment.

    There is a tremendous amount of scientific evidence demonstrating that “man evolved from apes via this primordial soup”. Although a more accurate way to say it would be to say that “homo sapiens and other primates evolved from a common ancestor, and all of life on earth formed through an initial act of abiogenesis.” The fact that you choose to ignore all of that scientific evidence is your prerogative.

    However, it would be interesting to know the sequence of events that you are proposing to replace the scientific evidence. How do you choose to explain the fossil record stretching back hundreds of millions of years, all of the millions of extinct species, and the relationship between those extinct species and the extant species we witness today?

  66. on 26 Oct 2011 at 7:55 pm 66.DPK said …

    He has an explanation for it… god did it.

    That’s all he’s got though. If you’re looking for something that actually fits the observed evidence and makes sense, we’ll, no luck there.

    I remember talking to a young earth creationist who insisted the earth, and the rest of the universe was created about 6,000 years ago. I asked him why we can see light from distant galaxies well over 6,000 light years away. His answer was that when god created the universe, he created those light rays, already in transit, as if they had been traveling for billions of years.

    Such is the bat shit crazy thought process of the deluded mind, of which Hor is crown prince.

  67. on 26 Oct 2011 at 9:27 pm 67.Anymouse said …

    Human evolution has never been proven! Where did we get the ability to think or to speak?? Where did these ” ancestors” come from dpk?! The earth is around 6000 years old, when God created it! Sorry I was not specific enough in the fact that Human, or according to dpk, ape evolution has never been proven! God created everything, how we see It is what God created, the 6000 light years us how it was seen when god made it. If you happen to bring up the big bang, where did those two masses come from?

  68. on 26 Oct 2011 at 9:43 pm 68.DPK said …

    Are you a shill just trying to make theists look like utter complete morons?

    Get yourself an education and stop listening to other morons. Your assertions are so insanely stupid they don’t even warrant a response other than laughter.

    Now go away or we shall taunt you further…
    D

  69. on 26 Oct 2011 at 9:54 pm 69.Anymouse said …

    Im so taunted,not. Where did these two masses come from, Thiests are morons because they come up with ridiculous ideas. Example of God- why were more people not killed in the Joplin tornado?? Children , note not just one, but many saw butterfly people protecting them and all over the city.

  70. on 26 Oct 2011 at 10:04 pm 70.Anymouse said …

    There is a God who loves you even with all of your mistakes, he loves everyone and wants you to live in eternity! God sent angels to protect those children and all those other people.

  71. on 26 Oct 2011 at 10:09 pm 71.MrQ said …

    Anymouse bleated:

    The earth is around 6000 years old, when God created it!

    Me and, strangely enough, Hor beg to differ. We say it’s 4+ billion years old.

  72. on 26 Oct 2011 at 10:25 pm 72.DPK said …

    This guy HAS to be Lou or Observer or someone just trying to make the theists look stupid. PLEASE tell me this is a joke… no one is REALLY that idiotic. I hope. Yes, even Hor has more sense that this dolt. hahaha

    D

  73. on 26 Oct 2011 at 10:44 pm 73.Anymouse said …

    DPK I assure you I’m neither, so why were more people not killed in a such devastating event??

  74. on 26 Oct 2011 at 10:49 pm 74.GODISREAL said …

    I completely agree with Anymouse, there were angels present that day and the earth was created by God, God is the first and the last and it will always be that way. Some questions Dpk is ignoring or doesn’t know the answer to is where did th two masses originate from and where did your ancestors , that you come from, come from?? I am praying for God to act in everones life that I here.

  75. on 26 Oct 2011 at 11:03 pm 75.MrQ said …

    Mr GodIsrael
    Are you in the same congregation as Anymouse? Perhaps Phelps Baptists?

    Ask a fellow xtian who posts here. He is goes by Horatiio or Horatio and he, like me, say the Earth is 4+ billion years old.

  76. on 27 Oct 2011 at 12:11 am 76.Anonymous said …

    Anymouse, wrong question. You should be asking yourself why would a loving god kill (or allow to be killed) so many people with a tornado? Please answer that question.

    You sound like an abused spouse who claims: “well, he only broke three of my ribs, I deserved it, it could have been worse, I know he still loves me”.

    If you are not a troll, then please seek help. That you believe in angels and butterfly people suggests that you are quite out of touch with reality.

    Before you go though, please tell us, what proof do you have that your exists other than in your imagination?

  77. on 27 Oct 2011 at 12:16 am 77.Anonymous said …

    Godisreal, who created your god? You can’t believe that this universe needed a creator but your god doesn’t. That would be nonsensical.

    While we are at it, why isn’t your god answering your prayers for him to come into my life?

  78. on 27 Oct 2011 at 12:32 am 78.Anonymous said …

    Godisreal, which god do you believe is real? It would be helpful if you’d explain how you came to pick that one out of the crowd and why?

    In terms of creation myths, which one are you arguing for? Babylonian, African, Navajo, Norse, Aboriginal, Mayan, Comanche, Egyptian, Inuit, etc? Sorry that this list is incomplete, but you can add to it with your personal favorite.

  79. on 27 Oct 2011 at 1:40 am 79.Horatiio said …

    Wow, now DPK has changed the message. Now we didn’t, evolve from Apes. Get the story straight guys. Which is it?

    Share some of this powerful fossil evidence. Will this include the latest artist renderings.

    I’m ready to believe. Provide some compelling proof.

  80. on 27 Oct 2011 at 1:51 am 80.Anymouse said …

    God is a fair and just God. The tornado brought everyon together, these children that saw the angels have describe them protect them from debris. God is real!! ( I don’t know the godisreal person but we are on the same exact page, as they pointed out you keep ignoring where these masses came from, I have answered all of your questions so please fille in with your knowledge, I am praying that you understand the multitude of children who never knew eachnother has describe them. That God is real and he loves you!

  81. on 27 Oct 2011 at 1:53 am 81.GODISREAL said …

    God. There is only one God but multiple gods, he goes by alpha and omega , king of kings savior almighty God father,

  82. on 27 Oct 2011 at 2:14 am 82.Anonymous said …

    Anymouse, you didn’t answer the question in #74. I’ll repost it for you:

    “Anymouse, wrong question. You should be asking yourself why would a loving god kill (or allow to be killed) so many people with a tornado? Please answer that question”.

    GIR – what kind of answer is that? Be specific. Which god are you referring to? Does he have a name? What is it?

    You also dodged the question. There are literally hundreds of gods that people have and do worship.

    How and why did you pick that specific one? How is it that this god is not answering prayers? I think it’s because no gods exist. What is your answer?

  83. on 27 Oct 2011 at 2:22 am 83.Anonymous said …

    Horatiio, the story is that you are nothing but an angry troll. You never answer questions put to you. Instead, you repost the same old chestnut as a way of diverting the conversation away from you having to prove your point.

    Why don’t you tell us the answer to the questions that you dispute? You’ve had the non-supernatural explanation, let’s see YOUR answers.

  84. on 27 Oct 2011 at 2:33 am 84.GODISREAL said …

    There is only one true God. The names he goes by is Father, savior, king of kings, alpha and omega. Now why don’t you answer the questions anymouse ask you!

  85. on 27 Oct 2011 at 2:33 am 85.MrQ said …

    You’ve had the non-supernatural explanation, let’s see YOUR answers.

    Anon, you’ll need to ask Hor to provide the bullet points ;-)
    Oh wait…..We’ve tried that once and got nowhere.

    Hor’s argument can be summed up and distilled down to: We don’t know exactly how life began so goddidit. A god of the gaps argument, if you will. Apparently his world view includes a 4+ billion year old Earth but that’s as scientific as he will go.

  86. on 27 Oct 2011 at 2:49 am 86.Anonymous said …

    GIR – those questions have been answered multiple times in this blog, you can scroll back and read them for yourself. Repeating these questions is just a diversion from the point. They are also irrelevant to the question of prayer.

    However, you are (we assume) asserting that your god DID create the universe. In that case it’s incumbent upon YOU to prove the point. Even if no-one could explain where life came from, that still doesn’t mean a god did it. Calling the unknown to be supernatural is a foolish and silly default to take.

    Now, you still haven’t explained how you came to select your god from the pantheon of other gods. You say it’s the one true god. What evidence do you have that the other gods are false and how do you explain that other people are equally convinced that YOU worship a false god?

    Do you believe that your god answer prayers? If so, how do you explain the fact that prayer has been shown to be totally infective in affecting the real world?

  87. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:11 am 87.GODISREAL said …

    The question that I see as unanswered falls on mrq. 45

  88. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:14 am 88.GODISREAL said …

    Also he does answer prayers, maybe not your because you don’t believe the reason for him and the awesomeness of him. Become a believer and stop criticizing something you have never experienced!

  89. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:16 am 89.Anonymous said …

    GIR – “Now, you still haven’t explained how you came to select your god from the pantheon of other gods. You say it’s the one true god. What evidence do you have that the other gods are false and how do you explain that other people are equally convinced that YOU worship a false god?”

    Your answer is?

  90. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:17 am 90.PRAYERWORKS!!! said …

    God was before time. Because He created time. That is why He is called the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End. Eternity is not time forever, but the absence of time. Time is likened to Earth, a place. The end of time is when you die because you escape time and enter eternity: the absence of time.

  91. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:20 am 91.GODISREAL said …

    I came to know my God through him saving my life. All other gods are simply worldly items that people have chosen to worship. There is only one God, a truthful and forgiving God:)

  92. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:22 am 92.Observer said …

    #58 Hor-moron-filth As was pointed out to anyone willing to take a look, there is a great lecture given by a, and I realize this has far less credence for you than a jabbering incontinent preacher, molecular biologist. He elaborates about how the about how homo has 46 chromosomes versus the ape 48 chromosomes. For anyone with an IQ in excess of 90 it is compelling.

    Here is a thumbnail sketch, without the background which you no doubt lack and seriously need.

    http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Human_Ape_chromosomes.htm

    and

    http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

  93. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:26 am 93.Observer said …

    #89 GODISREAL Great. I am glad that you specifically identified God as your own. I presume that this is not the imaginary Abrahamic God we prate on about so endlessly. Did you also have imaginary friends when you were a tot, are they still with you? Are you schizophrenic?

  94. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:28 am 94.Observer said …

    #89 PRAYERWORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hallelujah Brother! There is this damnable question that keeps popping from the likes of Lou(DFW), DPK, et al.: It is this Creation business that is the problem- Who created God?

  95. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:30 am 95.GODISREAL said …

    This God is Abrahms father, he is not imaginary, I have answered your questions why don’t you answer who created you, or what you evolved from.

  96. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:30 am 96.Anonymous said …

    PW – there is no “before time” and without time, causality is null and void.

    And your proof for these assertions is?

  97. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:31 am 97.Observer said …

    GIR- Frankly, I am fond of Odin. You do realize the hanging the stocking bit, the reindeer sleigh, leaving treats etc on xmas eve is a carry over of the pagen Yule Tide eve celebration for Odon and his wild ride? The point you should understand is that your God is likely just an amalgam of previous gods. It is all pretty silly.

  98. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:32 am 98.GODISREAL said …

    Observer, he explains it crystal clear in88. Great point btw:)

  99. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:37 am 99.GODISREAL said …

    AnOn, I as a christian understand it perfectly, my God , if you look towards 88 was befOre all gods so hens not a mix, it is not silly it is called faith.

  100. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:55 am 100.MrQ said …

    Mr GodIsrael says:

    The question that I see as unanswered falls on mrq. 45

    I would like to suggest that the species Homo sapiens evolved around 250,000 years ago, if I remember the numbers correctly. So, if you want to trace my lineage that’s where it starts.
    Look up “mitochondrial eve” as a search on Google for more information. But you literally believe the world to be 6000 years old and that Noah’s Ark is an historic event. So I will assume that you won’t try too hard to dig for any real evidence or information.

  101. on 27 Oct 2011 at 4:09 am 101.Anonymous said …

    I’ve never understood the theist ability to make statements like “my god exists outside of / before time” and to do so with a straight face, especially as these statements are simply plucked out of thin air.

    It’s even more baffling that such statements are qualified to be taken on “faith” whilst the self-same theists will absolutely refuse to accept real-world explanations that are based on actual evidence.

    It’s as if there is some pride in saying “Despite all the evidence to the contrary I still believe in my bronze age superstitions. Belief trumps facts”. If this was anything other than religion these theists would be either be laughed out of town or locked up in a mental hospital.

  102. on 27 Oct 2011 at 3:36 pm 102.RJ said …

    RE: #86

    “…he does answer prayers, maybe not your[s] because you don’t believe the reason for him and the awesomeness of him.”

    How many chritians here or that you know of ever pray for something they know is impossible? And I’m talking literally impossible. Not a long shot. Not just “unlikely” or “highly improbable”. But impossible in every sense of the word.

    *If a loved one gets cancer, do you pray god heals them? Of course you do.
    *If a loved one is stricken with sickness, do you pray for their speedy recovery? Of course you do.
    *If a loved one needs major surgery, do you pray all goes well? Of course you do.
    *If a loved one loses an arm or leg in an accident, do you pray another one grows back? Of course you don’t.

    Why not?

    Because christians will only pray for things they know deep down are scientifically possible, even if it’s something highly unlikely, but will never pray for something they know is scientifically impossible.

  103. on 27 Oct 2011 at 4:05 pm 103.Zed said …

    Because christians will only pray for things they know deep down are scientifically possible, even if it’s something highly unlikely, but will never pray for something they know is scientifically impossible.

    Yet, as soon as medical science advances and a new treatment is available, let’s invent one — fingertip rejuvenation, Christians will then feel free to pray for their god to regrow someone’s fingertip. If it succeeds, it’s their god “working through” someone.

    It seems that this god can only do what man can do and the reason should be clear:

    man + god = man; where god = 0.

  104. on 27 Oct 2011 at 4:59 pm 104.GODISREAL said …

    I pray for the warped minds here, Satan has had you fooled and you will not like livingnin a fiery hell.

  105. on 27 Oct 2011 at 5:09 pm 105.Anymouse said …

    For all the athiest, who/what created your ancestors you evolved from?? You have yet to answer.

  106. on 27 Oct 2011 at 5:36 pm 106.Zed said …

    GIR – A serious question.

    How do you know that Satan hasn’t fooled you? If he is such a trickster, how do you know that Satan hasn’t convinced you to worship a false god?

    How do you know that Satan didn’t create the scripture and is delighting in watching you walk towards hell? Perhaps Islam is correct after all?

    Maybe your god doesn’t answer prayers because you are praying to the wrong god?

    If Satan can trick me, how do you know he didn’t trick you?

    Anymouse, your question has been answered time after time – please go to http://www.talkorigins.org/ Do you believe that your god created man from dust? What proof do you have for that? By the way, what relevance does this question have to why your god doesn’t answer prayers?

  107. on 27 Oct 2011 at 6:42 pm 107.Horatiio said …

    Huh,

    still not one shred of direct evidence on the evolution of humans from apes? to the men of today. No evidence of evolution out of the primordial soup of any creature.

    Many red herrings up above but no proof.

    LOL!! This song and dance has played before.

    I’m still ready to believe. Anything compelling believers?

  108. on 27 Oct 2011 at 6:56 pm 108.observer said …

    For the drooling unwashed theists out there…

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-26-2011/lisa-randall

  109. on 27 Oct 2011 at 6:59 pm 109.observer said …

    #105 Hor- You pathetic clown, once you stop LOL learn what kids in a decent high school biology class should know, then revisit #90 above.

  110. on 27 Oct 2011 at 7:21 pm 110.observer said …

    #96 Godisreal(in your mind) With respect to 88, assume:
    “God was before time. Because He created time. That is why He is called the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End.”

    In other words time is an open set, which should imply the existence of a completion, which is the same as saying there is outside of time as PW defines it.

    “Eternity is not time forever, but the absence of time.” Eternity is defined as the non-temporal existing in the completion of the the set, call it T, of time. So the union of time and eternity makes up the set T, which by definition, is in the universe, but also is the salient dimension of the universe we live on.

    “Time is likened to Earth, a place. The end of time is when you die because you escape time and enter eternity: the absence of time.”

    Here then the entire nonsense is exposed. Have you or PW ever known someone to die? Did the clocks stop? By virtue of being able to observe death and register its occurrence, time has passed. Perhaps not surprising, PW has a very primitive understanding, even child-like, of the universe. In the same way that an infant or slow toddler thinks that something when removed from his sight it is gone forever, Prayerworks thinks that when he croaks, the universe as we know it will cease to continue as he moves into eternity. This is astonishingly hubristic as well as moronic, but clear and intelligent thinking is not a hallmark of theists.

    Godisreal- I am always astonished that folks are so easily taken in. Prayerworks! has excreted a fetid stream of bullshit, perfumed with complete sentences, correct spelling, and punctuation, which you have gobbled-up with relish. Most folks are somewhat more discriminating.

  111. on 27 Oct 2011 at 8:04 pm 111.benson abraham said …

    i was very much eager to see something like this. Because i am such a person or may be the only one who is currently doing his PG in biotechnology, but still believes that earth was formed in 6 days.
    You may think that i am a true christian believer , but it is not so, I am a polythiest. I believe that all religions and science is from God, so that he can decieve us.
    How??
    1. God is all powerful, so only someone like HIM can be a threat to him.
    2. Man had that potential. RECALL : when moses went to pharoah, he dropped his stick, which became a snake. But the other magicians also did the same. The only difference is that God’s power overpowered.
    If mankind would have gone in the same path, maybe a day would have come when our powers would have overpowerd God’s.
    Tell me what is he supposed to do to hide his power (technology) away from us? The answer is simple, somehow make him believe that he is created not in the image of God, but some kind of a monkey.
    3. Time is applicable to man, but not God. We cannot change the past, but God can.
    RECALL : In the wedding of cannan, jesus converted water into wine. First there was water in the jar,which is the truth. Second, after the conversion there was wine in the jar, which is the truth. Now how much you test, you can never come to know that initialy it was water in the jar. So what will you believe to be the truth?
    Think!
    If God change the history of earth, then in wat will you believe, the one that was intially created or that has been altered.
    [In the whole bible, there is only one place, where is a mention of particular word or a spell (which we are all familiar off) which would have probably change the history of the earth.]
    4. I am a polythiest, so i believe that other religions from the same God. Because if, there would have been no concept about good, bad, sin, heaven etc. no body could have understood what the apostles meant by saying Jesus has sacrificed his life to save us from our sins.
    If i am wrong please correct me and follow me on bensonabraham86 in TWITTER
    THANK YOU!!!
    BE A FREE THINKER………….

  112. on 27 Oct 2011 at 8:08 pm 112.MrQ said …

    Hor (#105) said:

    Huh

    About sums up your life does it not?

    I’m still ready to believe. Anything compelling believers?

    You’ve referenced Francis Collins in the past….Have you forgotten?
    For a reality check: Visit biologos.org and review. Thank me later.

    Happy Halloween to you Hor.

  113. on 27 Oct 2011 at 8:15 pm 113.Cleo said …

    Not much to pick up from this thread other than:

    “In terms of creation myths, which one are you arguing for? Babylonian, African, Navajo, Norse, Aboriginal, Mayan, Comanche, Egyptian, Inuit, etc”

    Contrary to the intent this poster gives more credence to creation. The reason we observe so many creation myths is due to the reality that a creation did indeed take place. These many people groups had no contact with one another but they all gave an account to a definite beginning. Therefore we must conclude, unless facts can prove otherwise, that creation did take place.

    This is my only post. Those who like the childish name calling can save their key strokes.

  114. on 27 Oct 2011 at 9:29 pm 114.MrQ said …

    @ Cleo

    we observe so many creation myths is due to the reality that a creation did indeed take place.

    Or could it be that the human imagination developed a desire to seek to understand where we came from. Something which would prove impossible without advanced technologies and a comprehensive understanding of the natural world and universe. It’s easy to see how myths and stories developed with primitive humans. Rainbows, solar eclipses, volcanos, etc were unexplainable, mysterious, and often signs from some god.

  115. on 27 Oct 2011 at 9:55 pm 115.Asher said …

    Cleo

    And yet none came up with a story about creatures crawling out of hot lava soup and eventually becoming all known creatures. Even the primitives could not buy such a scenario.

  116. on 27 Oct 2011 at 10:00 pm 116.Zed said …

    Cleo, your entire post is one large fallacy. But let’s just focus on this part: Therefore we must conclude, unless facts can prove otherwise, that creation did take place.

    No. That’s an example of sloppy thinking. You are starting from a conclusion and cherry picking observations to support your position and are reversing the burden of proof – I could say “I have an invisible pink unicorn in my basement and until you prove me wrong, I am right. It’s nonsense, of course, but so too is your conclusion.

  117. on 27 Oct 2011 at 10:09 pm 117.Zed said …

    Asher, you are trying to paint a strawman but your reasoning is obvious.

    You are absolutely correct in that primitive people with little or no education, no knowledge of science, no knowledge of critical thinking are hardly likely to have been able to guess at the complexity behind the real world.

    You are correct. Primitive people’s lack of education and experience meant that the only explanations they could give would be childish and without merit. The question is, why do you accept the myths and fables of people we would now consider to be ESN to be “true”. Aren’t you embarrassed by that?

    Also, Asher, why do you only take exception to one or two things out of all of what science has brought us? Do you reject medicine, electricity, refuse to get on a plane, never use a GPS system, live in a mud hut and so on?

    No, of course you don’t. Those advances, using the same sciences that dispel your silly myths, don’t also tell you that you are not special and that a nice man in the sky isn’t really going to welcome you home when you die. That’s your real objection, isn’t it? Well, get over it, god is imaginary, as is heaven, hell and the whole nonsense from the bible.

  118. on 27 Oct 2011 at 10:21 pm 118.observer said …

    #113 Asher “Cleo

    And yet none came up with a story about creatures crawling out of hot lava soup and eventually becoming all known creatures. Even the primitives could not buy such a scenario.”

    So Asher, with what seems to be a professed infallible grasp of the ontogeny of human knowledge, and modesty, given that there are numerous myths about the Sun, why is it there are no myths about hydrogen fusion? Why are there no myths about helium fusion?

    Your argument is completely asinine to anyone who is less dull than you.

  119. on 27 Oct 2011 at 10:27 pm 119.observer said …

    #109 benson abraham- I will grant you the lowercase “i” is appropriate in your case. It is comforting to know you are doing biotech; urinalysis testing should keep you out of trouble. May you give more thought to your work than to your religious views.

  120. on 27 Oct 2011 at 11:05 pm 120.Horatiio said …

    “Do you reject medicine, electricity, refuse to get on a plane, never use a GPS system, live in a mud hut and so on?”

    Irrelevant…..this is observational science not historical science therefore you present a red herring. Lou would call you a liar. LOL!! Oh Lou is precious..

    Now Zed or DPK or Lou (whoever you are), back to the real question.

    Where is all this evidence that proves (note the word proves) we evolved from Apes or what ever primordial creature you claim we came from.

    Hmmmm, now to think of it you believe we are related to all creatures so this challenge should be easy.

    Hey while on the subject, show us the science, the facts if you will that disproves creation. I am ready to believe.

    Prediction: No evidence will be presented.

  121. on 27 Oct 2011 at 11:48 pm 121.DPK said …

    The evidence you seek has been presented many times and is widely available.
    “There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
    There is no point trying to debate with the latest crop of lunatics here. They do not listen to reason, logic, or evidence because they are willfully ignorant. It is truly sad, in this day and age, to see so much ignorance and stupidity displayed with pride and arrogance.
    I refuse to debate with imbeciles; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. You just can’t fix stupid.

  122. on 27 Oct 2011 at 11:54 pm 122.Anymouse said …

    How did everyone come about? Is it that we originated from two masses that had no life, and then went on to “magically” form together a body of some sort? The link posted says nothing about how life was formed, or created. This blogs name gives it all away that there is a God, also the creator of Lucifer/ Satan is God. I have learned that evolution is a word. Human evolution has to start with some form of life, so for all the theists out there, please do tell me where this form of life came from. Prayer is a strong power that man has to communicate with God. I have no idea how I stumbled across this site but everyone here has to relize that to live you must have life.

  123. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:17 am 123.DPK said …

    Here’s the truth.
    What “caused” the big bang? What happened “before” if the phrase even has any meaning?
    I don’t know. Neither do you.
    Stop pretending that you do.
    How did life actually originate on our planet? I don’t know. Neither do you.
    I do know that it is a VERY big universe and that matter and energy follow natural laws.
    There is no reason to think there is an invisible, supernatural, magical being directing the show. Until you can provide some real evidence that such a being actually exists, and is not a product of man’s imagination…. just like every other god that people have worshiped and believed in who are now in the dustbin of discarded and non-existent gods, I do not accept your assertion.
    Just because you cannot explain some natural phenomenon does not mean it cannot be explained, and it does not give you the right to make up some wild ass bat shit crazy story and claim it is true just because you are terrified to die and want to live forever.
    Your ignorance of even basic scientific knowledge is stupefying. I don’t understand how you can function in the world with such willful ignorance.
    Can you explain to me exactly how your cell phone works? Can you describe, and prove to me exactly the process of you speaking into a small box magically makes your words come out of another small box half way around the world??? Does that mean that there are then tiny invisible angels that magically fly back and forth at the speed of light and can change their voices to sound just like yours? That makes as much sense as your creation story.
    Here’s the facts, despite what you believe, the world is NOT 6 thousand years old. The universe is about 14 billion years old. The Earth is about 4 billion years old. All life on earth, including you, evolved from simpler microbial life forms over billions of years. No magic being poofed it into existence. When you die, the electrochemical processes in your brain stop and your consciousness stops. You do not magically travel to some far away paradise to live for all eternity. The natural laws that govern the order of the universe do not love you. You do not have a personal relationship with them. They do not listen to your thoughts and they do not grant you wishes.
    Grow up, get an education, live the life you have and be thankful for being gives several decades as a sentient being on a beautiful world with an intellect… use it.

  124. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:54 am 124.Horatiio said …

    DPK, congratulations. For the fist time here you made some sense. Little me review.

    “How did life actually originate on our planet? I don’t know.”

    Exactly! If you are relying solely on science you must be honest that you do not know!

    “I do not accept your assertion.”

    What assertion?

    Your ignorance of even basic scientific knowledge is stupefying.

    Example please?

    Can you explain to me exactly how your cell phone works?

    Yes, actually I am quite familiar with the engineering of cell phones.

    “despite what you believe, the world is NOT 6 thousand years old. The universe is about 14 billion years old.”

    Sure mate, but where is my claim? Do you know for certain that the real truth is the universe is 14 billion years old? No possibility that could change?

    You are making progress. If we can get your buddies on board that would be real progress.

  125. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:55 am 125.Lou (DFW) said …

    118.Horatiio said …

    “Prediction: No evidence will be presented.”

    Says the guy who NEVER, EVER presents evidence for his imaginary god. All of these long drawn out arguments are nothing but distractions from the topic – god and religion, not creation, Big Bang, ambiogenesis, evolution, or prayer. Hor knows it, that’s why he continuously introduces them to the discussion, or lack thereof, for god’s existence. And as I quoted earlier, debating these subjects with bozo’s like Hor is akin to debating about astrology or faith-healing. It’s pointless to argue with caveman thinking.

  126. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:20 am 126.DPK said …

    It is sad to point out that the only way Hor seems to be able to advance his position is by taking statements out of context and pretending that I said something different that what I stated.

    ““How did life actually originate on our planet? I don’t know.”

    Exactly! If you are relying solely on science you must be honest that you do not know! ”

    I have never said I “KNOW” how life originated on this planet. What I said was “I don’t know… AND NEITHER DO YOU.”

    ““I do not accept your assertion.”

    What assertion?”

    The assertion that gods exist, interact with humans, provide eternal life, punish for sins, demand worship, and perform miracles.

    “Your ignorance of even basic scientific knowledge is stupefying.
    Example please?”

    Anymouse stated that the earth and universe were created in 6 days and are approximately 6 thousand years old and that all life on earth was created in it’s present form at that same time… He, or one of his fellow idiots, also said that god created light rays from galaxies billions of light years away, already in transit, to make it look like the universe was older than it actually is. They also stated that angels, disguised as butterflies, saved people from death in the Joplin Tornado.

    “Yes, actually I am quite familiar with the engineering of cell phones.”

    Good for you. But I think they are magic. Prove me wrong. You can’t can you?

    “Do you know for certain that the real truth is the universe is 14 billion years old? No possibility that could change?”

    Yes, it is possible that it could change, if new or better evidence becomes available. Is there any chance it could change from 14 billion years to 6 thousand? No.

    Do you know for certain that a god created the universe? Any possibility that could change?

    Your thinking process is so muddled and contradictory it is astounding you can function in the world. You must be very good at rationalizing your “beliefs” with reality.

  127. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:30 am 127.Lou (DFW) said …

    124.DPK said …

    “It is sad to point out that the only way Hor seems to be able to advance his position is by taking statements out of context and pretending that I said something different that what I stated.”

    That’s because Hor is fraud. He is psychologically and intellectually dishonest.
    It’s one thing to simply be ignorant, but it’s another thing to lie about, distort, and misrepresent the truth and what others say. At least someone who’s ignorant is honest.

  128. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:56 am 128.Anymouse said …

    The children described them as butterfly people- not butterflies. I never said He made the rays in transit- they have yet to reach the earth- if I recall I said Go made it the way we see it now. So the dead sea scrolls were never found- history of my God – and scientist never said they were over 2000 years old. I believe not, they were found- evidence.

  129. on 28 Oct 2011 at 4:17 am 129.benson abraham said …

    #117 wat an advice. Thankyou. I thought tat u might think beyond limits. But i find no difference between u and other religious people. Just obsessed with wat u think…..

  130. on 28 Oct 2011 at 4:21 am 130.DPK said …

    “described them as butterfly people- not butterflies. I never said He made the rays in transit- they have yet to reach the earth- if I recall I said Go(d) made it the way we see it now.”

    I rest my case.

    D

  131. on 28 Oct 2011 at 4:26 am 131.Anonymous said …

    “It is sad to point out that the only way Hor seems to be able to advance his position is by taking statements out of context and pretending that I said something different that what I stated.”

    That’s because Hor is fraud. He is psychologically and intellectually dishonest. It’s one thing to simply be ignorant, but it’s another thing to lie about, distort, and misrepresent the truth and what others say. At least someone who’s ignorant is honest.

    Which is why it’s probably time to simply reply to his posts with a comment about how he’s a troll intent only on preventing any conversation that leads to requests for evidence on the existence of gods. It must be scary to have spent your entire life in servitude to a imaginary friend, thinking, believing that your reward is coming in heaven, only to find out that it was all a fairy story.

  132. on 28 Oct 2011 at 4:32 am 132.DPK said …

    “It must be scary to have spent your entire life in servitude to a imaginary friend, thinking, believing that your reward is coming in heaven, only to find out that it was all a fairy story.”

    Sadly, that revelation will never happen, because when you die, you are dead, and will not realize you are dead and Jesus is not waiting for you with puppies and ice cream. But it is tragic that some people cannot appreciate the value of the life they have without the pathological need for another one.

  133. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:35 am 133.Severin said …

    105 Horatio
    “still not one shred of direct evidence on the evolution of humans from apes?”

    That is because humans did NOT evolved from apes, and because no one ever said they did.
    As someone said here, humans ARE apes.
    (Sorry apes, I have no choice but to include Horatio to the group! But there must be somewhere a “missing link” from wich species like Horatio and Mr. Bean have been evolved!)

  134. on 28 Oct 2011 at 11:10 am 134.Anonymous said …

    Sadly, that revelation will never happen, because when you die, you are dead, and will not realize you are dead and Jesus is not waiting for you with puppies and ice cream. But it is tragic that some people cannot appreciate the value of the life they have without the pathological need for another one.

    Except there are no puppies in heaven, because only humans have a “soul” – not that there’s an explanation of this works or how bronze age people determined that. Unless, of course, you’re one of those Christians who believes that pets (but not all animals of course) do go to heaven because that’s a more comforting thought.

    How it is that these believers can amend their bumper book of fairy stories on a whim, simply to make themselves more comfortable with the price of their servitude is truly amazing. Scary, inconsistent and delusional, but still amazing.

  135. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:03 pm 135.Curmudgeon said …

    Atheist are so pathetic. When a poster like Hor challenges their thinking and reveals their fallacies he becomes “the troll”.

    Geez, at least he doesn’t come here as anonymous. You are the troll my cowardly friend.

    This site is not about proving the theist POV since it is not a theist site. It is for atheist to defend the suppositions of this site. Namely if God does not heal amputees he does not exist. Just another of many fallacies. Defend it with some logic troops.

    WWGHA fails miserably

  136. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:11 pm 136.Horatiio said …

    DPK

    This is for you:

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm

    Now this is science because it meets the requirements of the scientific method.

    Since you don’t understand the scientific method I could see why you think cell phones are magic.

    If after studying this you still don’t understand give a jangle. I can send you some engineering sketches taking it down to the chip level.

    Love ya DPK!

  137. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:47 pm 137.Lou (DFW) said …

    133.Curmudgeon said …

    ‘Atheist are so pathetic. When a poster like Hor challenges their thinking and reveals their fallacies he becomes “the troll”.’

    ARE YOU KIDDING?! The only thing Hor ever challenged here is my patience in dealing with undisciplined children.

    “Geez, at least he doesn’t come here as anonymous. You are the troll my cowardly friend.”

    As opposed to someone named Curmudgeon?! Are you really that much of an idiot?

    “This site is not about proving the theist POV since it is not a theist site.”

    This blog is for the dicussion of religion and god. If theists want to assert the existence of their imaginary god, then they should be able to provide evidence for it.

    “It is for atheist to defend the suppositions of this site. Namely if God does not heal amputees he does not exist. Just another of many fallacies. Defend it with some logic troops.

    What are “logic troops?”

    “WWGHA fails miserably”

    As opposed to how you and your ilk succeed in providing evidence for your imaginary god?

  138. on 28 Oct 2011 at 1:51 pm 138.Lou (DFW) said …

    134.Horatiio said …

    “DPK

    This is for you:

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm

    Once again, Hor replies with a 100% irrelevant tangent that provides no evidence for his imaginary god. How cell phones work is irrelevant to the discussion – even to the extent to how DPK referred to them. Once again, Hor attempts to misrepresent what someone wrote in a feeble attempt to deflect and divert what he perceives as an attack on his imaginary god.

  139. on 28 Oct 2011 at 2:27 pm 139.DPK said …

    I think it’s a riot that How would reference an article from Marshal Brain’s “how stuff works” website.
    Hor, don’t you know who created wwgha.com and godis imaginary.com?

    hahaha.. you’re such an idiot.

    Anyway, your idea of how cell phones work have no proof. The whole electromagnetic wave thing is just a theory, after all. It’s never been proven. Please provide bullet points that show how you can PROVE that there is no magic involved.
    Since you obviously can’t, therefore I am right and you are wrong.

  140. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:46 pm 140.Observer said …

    One more time
    From #90

    #58 Hor-moron-filth As was pointed out to anyone willing to take a look, there is a great lecture given by a, and I realize this has far less credence for you than a jabbering incontinent preacher, molecular biologist. He elaborates about how the about how homo has 46 chromosomes versus the ape 48 chromosomes. For anyone with an IQ in excess of 90 it is compelling.

    Here is a thumbnail sketch, without the background which you no doubt lack and seriously need.

    http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Human_Ape_chromosomes.htm

    http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

    From #107
    #105 Hor- You pathetic clown, once you stop LOL learn what kids in a decent high school biology class should know, then revisit #90 above

    Hor- By the way, weren’t you one of the clowns who has in the past referred to evolution as a process that loses information? Or at least commended one of those idiots? That tells us how much you understand cellphones.

  141. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:46 pm 141.Observer said …

    #124 DPK Fine job laying bare the stupidity and dishonesty of the cretinous slob Hor.

  142. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:49 pm 142.DPK said …

    “Geez, at least he doesn’t come here as anonymous. You are the troll my cowardly friend.”

    He actually thinks “Curmudgeon” is less anonymous than “Anonymous”!

    That would be funny, if it wasn’t so indicative of his general intellectual status and thought processes which are generally on the level of schoolyard taunting.

  143. on 28 Oct 2011 at 3:56 pm 143.Lou (DFW) said …

    137.DPK said …

    “Anyway, your idea of how cell phones work have no proof. The whole electromagnetic wave thing is just a theory, after all. It’s never been proven. Please provide bullet points that show how you can PROVE that there is no magic involved.”

    Electromagnetic waves, gravity, evolution – HA! They are all “fallacies” of scientific thinking (nonsense)!

    Hor is a perfect example of how theists cherry pick science. That is, they accept science when it supports their position, but they reject it when it doesn’t or when it opposes it. This is only one example of how Hor operates as fraud. When someone is pushing the greatest fraud known to man (god), then he must resort to fraud in order to promote it. How do astrologers and faith-healers operate? Through fraud, that’s how. And that’s how theists operate, too.

  144. on 28 Oct 2011 at 5:02 pm 144.DPK said …

    As the late, great George Carlin said, “The greatest bullshit story ever sold. Nothing holds a candle to religion.”

  145. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:09 pm 145.Horatiio said …

    LOL!! You guys really do make my day.

    Cur thanks for the wonderful analysis. Its OK however, I don’t take any of these guys seriously.

    Now, bringing us back to point and ignoring DPKs cell phone red herring and personal attacks let us ask again. Think hard now.

    I am ready to believe. Provide facts/proof/direct evidence we evolved from whatever species you believe we evolved from. Where did we apes (LOL!!) evolve from.

    Got fossils?

    Thanks guys.

  146. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:22 pm 146.Horatiio said …

    Nose Buster!!!

    I almost missed you welcome back!!

    Escaped from the basement again? Hey maybe you can do what the others cannot. Let me look it over…….

    ………….

    Sorry, nose buster, similarity (homology) = evolutionary ancestry axiom is not facts, evidence. It means we have similarities.

    I call convergent evolution on you nose buster! LOL!!

    I din’t even need to post another’s work.

  147. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:25 pm 147.girtm44 said …

    Atheist just don’t get It, they use their god named Atheism to try to disprove the God Of the Bible,They prove to me that there is a real true God of Love that created this universe.

    Because, why do they spend so much time trying to disprove something that they know don’t exist?

  148. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:29 pm 148.Lou (DFW) said …

    143.Horatiio said …

    “Now, bringing us back to point…”

    Yes, let’s get to the point – EVIDENCE FOR YOUR IMAGINARY GOD, not Big Bang, not ambiogenesis, not evolution, but YOUR IMAGINARY GOD.

    “…and ignoring DPKs cell phone red herring…”

    First of all, it wasn’t a red herring. But, oh look everybody, after seeing the use of red herring here, Hor hasn’t learned how to correctly apply the term. A red herring is the basis for ALL of Hor’s comments that are in lieu of a direct reply to please provide evidence of your imaginary god.

    “…and personal attacks let us ask again.”

    Ask what again? Why you can’t concentrate on the subject? Provide evidence for your imaginary god.

    “Think hard now.”

    You haven’t provided anything to think about, except to wonder why you are such a dolt.

  149. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:35 pm 149.Lou (DFW) said …

    143.Horatiio said …

    “Now…ignoring…personal attacks let us ask again.”

    Then 144.Horatiio said …

    “Nose Buster!!!

    I almost missed you welcome back!!

    Escaped from the basement again? Hey maybe you can do what the others cannot. Let me look it over…….”

    Hor, not only are you OCD, but ADD as well. And yet you accuse others of having mental issues?! And now you’re back to your “Broadway in the basement” fantasy of watching “Nosebuster” dance with Wiccans? Yeah, Harris is a nut, but you aren’t.

  150. on 28 Oct 2011 at 6:46 pm 150.A said …

    Horatio

    The proof we evolved from apes is not complex. We look a great deal like apes. We have taught apes to communicate using sign language. We must have evolved from apes.

    You need to study some biology.

  151. on 28 Oct 2011 at 7:54 pm 151.MrQ said …

    From the Hor:

    I am ready to believe. Provide facts/proof/direct evidence we evolved from whatever species you believe we evolved from. Where did we apes (LOL!!) evolve from.

    Got fossils?

    Yes…. Many fossils. Also, got DNA and a whole bunch of time. Where is the problem Hor? Look at fellow Zombie believers such as Collins and then comment-> biologos.org , in case you forgot. Use the highly evolved brain, Hor, use the brain.

  152. on 28 Oct 2011 at 8:01 pm 152.DPK said …

    Horatiio concedes he cannot provide either proof or bullet points as to why we should accept the idea that cell phones are not magic boxes that only function through the power of the Lord and his angelic helpers!
    We are making progress. Now that you see that there is no way to defend or “prove” (in your vernacular) ANYTHING against wild, crazy-ass deluded claims of magic and things born of human imagination, please stop asking for evidence that you will simply reject out of hand because you don’t wish to believe it.

    Now, close your eyes, click the heels on your ruby slippers together 3 times and say “I wish the atheists would believe, I wish the atheists would believe….” Then go back to Broadway in the Basement and ask the dancers if you can preach to the audience during intermission. Oh wait, that would be just you, huh? Well, at least you’ll get a warm reception from that crowd.
    LOL

  153. on 28 Oct 2011 at 9:02 pm 153.Horatiio said …

    A,

    I thank you for your genuine effort. Let me quote you:

    “The proof we evolved from apes is not complex. We look a great deal like apes.”

    Hmmm, so, anything that looks similar automatically means they evolved one from the other? Now think about it, is this real proof? Could it be a common Creator could also account for this similarity? Remember biologist claim they know the universe looks created but we must remember it was not, so….

    No, you claim we evolved from apes. When you and the other atheist get together could you come to some sort of consensus? You and you buddies are all over the board on this one.

    Thanks for trying.

  154. on 28 Oct 2011 at 9:20 pm 154.MrQ said …

    The Hor again:

    No, you claim we evolved from apes. When you and the other atheist get together could you come to some sort of consensus?

    Not just atheists accept evolution…. did you conveniently fail to remember again, Hor? Include Catholics and Baptists as Theory of Evolution advocates. Since you have touted Collins in the past, visit biologos.org , a website from a Baptist no less, and see what they have to say about evolution. Thank me later, Hor.

  155. on 28 Oct 2011 at 11:21 pm 155.Lou (DFW) said …

    152.MrQ said …

    “Not just atheists accept evolution…. did you conveniently fail to remember again, Hor?”

    We all need to understand something about Hor – it’s just as pointless and futile to argue evolution or any other science with him as it is to argue with an astrologist or a faith-healer that their particular fraud has no basis in fact or scientific theory. Just as they are, he is a fraud. He will NEVER, EVER provide any evidence for his position because there is none. We will only lie about, twist, and distort any scientific truth. He will only offer juvenile insults such “Nosebuster” and “Broadway In The Basement.” He (and his aliases) is a fraud and troll, nothing more. I think it’s even safe to say that he has mental or psychological issues that cause him to “act-out” here. We are only enabling him.

  156. on 29 Oct 2011 at 12:30 am 156.Evidence said …

    None of evolution. Dead sea scrolls that prove God is not imaginary. This will be my only post as the atheist simply donot want to show support for evolution. All the atheist say is that God is imaginary, yet they provide NO evidence.

  157. on 29 Oct 2011 at 12:34 am 157.Evidence said …

    I never saw it till now but 145 proves my point:)

  158. on 29 Oct 2011 at 2:25 am 158.MrQ said …

    I bet Ev (post #154/155) thinks that little pink unicorns are imaginary, yet he/she will provide NO evidence.

  159. on 29 Oct 2011 at 2:27 am 159.Anonymous said …

    @154 – this is, indeed, interesting. So far no theist has produced any evidence at all for any god. All we’ve seen is circular reasoning… “the bible says god exists, therefore god exists” – obviously, that’s not evidence nor an acceptable proof.

    Please explain to us how the dead sea scrolls prove that your god is real and not imaginary?

  160. on 29 Oct 2011 at 2:36 am 160.Anonymous said …

    MrQ, actually I think Evidence is saying that unless we have evidence to prove that little pink unicorns are imaginary, then they they are real.

    Of course, once we prove that little pink unicorns don’t exist, then he’s free to challenge someone to prove that little blue and green striped unicorns called Donald aren’t imaginary, otherwise his logic insists that they are real.

    Or something like that.

  161. on 29 Oct 2011 at 11:50 am 161.Lou (DFW) said …

    154.Evidence said …

    “None of evolution. Dead sea scrolls that prove God is not imaginary. This will be my only post as the atheist simply donot want to show support for evolution. All the atheist say is that God is imaginary, yet they provide NO evidence.”

    Apparently people like him fail to read and/or comprehend http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

    The evidence there is far more convincing than any dead sea scrolls, bible, koran, book or mormon, etc. Furthermore, despite the fact that evolution does not require “support” from atheists anymore than does gravity, evolution, true or not, is 100% IRRELEVANT to the existence of god! Why can’t these thick-headed theists understand that simple concept?

  162. on 29 Oct 2011 at 12:22 pm 162.Lou (DFW) said …

    154.Evidence said …

    “This will be my only post….”

    155.Evidence said …

    “I never saw it till now but 145 proves my point:)”

  163. on 29 Oct 2011 at 12:47 pm 163.Anonymous said …

    The evidence there is far more convincing than any dead sea scrolls, bible, koran, book or mormon, etc. Furthermore, despite the fact that evolution does not require “support” from atheists anymore than does gravity, evolution, true or not, is 100% IRRELEVANT to the existence of god! Why can’t these thick-headed theists understand that simple concept?

    Because they don’t want to and because they have no evidence for the existence of their gods?

    Because they have been indoctrinated with sloppy thinking skills, taught to believe stupid things, trained not to question bronze-age superstitions, and it’s a badge of honor to believe when the evidence says otherwise.

    Because, despite their holy books being inerrant many theists have failed to keep up with their churches changing the rules about what they can or cannot believe. After all, after being informed for years, literally years, that evolution isn’t possible, even the best-trained theists have difficulty switching from abject hate-mode to “oh, of course the bible supports that. We just didn’t know how to interpret this obscure and irrelevant verse in a way that helps us keep face in the march of progress”.

    And, finally, because an education where you are taught that things happen when you wish very, very, hard and plead to a zombie to make you all better, tends to leave people somewhat stupid. Actually, very, very, stupid.

  164. on 29 Oct 2011 at 3:00 pm 164.40 year Atheist said …

    Atheism is based on the repressive philosophical stance of total materialism, in a single, physical reality, a self-refuting position that is required for support. And Philosophical Materialism attempts to co-opt empirical science as its foundational principle, falsely implying that the voluntary materialism of empirical science translates to total materialism and a single, physical reality – a proposition easily refuted, and one never proposed by science.

    When Atheists demand evidence, they mean physical evidence. If non-physical entities are claimed, Atheists demand physical evidence as proof. This is consistent with their repression of reality into a single, physical reality, and their misapprehension of the principles of science.

    If evidence is sensory, then all the questions surrounding the quality and reality of the sensory inputs come into play. These have been discussed in detail before, including the errors that are possible; the techniques, including the scientific method, for minimizing the potential errors; the problems of dogma and ego which sacrifice accuracy for agenda.

    But there is another source which is non-sensory. It is intuitive, intellectual.

    If the evidence is intellectual (non-sensory) then new questions arise. For example, how can these purely intellectual understandings be tested physically? How do they interact with the material world? How can I know if they are valid?

    I can document my contact with the First Principles and my comprehension of the nature of those principles. But I cannot supply physical evidence for impartial testing. I can do the same with logic. I can do the same with math, especially higher math. Nor can I share my actual experience of comprehension – the moment of understanding; I can relate that experience as an historical anecdote, but the personal nature of apprehending and comprehending – say math or logic, for example – means that it is up to each individual to capture the experience for himself. This is entirely different from physically existential experiences, which can be shared simultaneously, although viewed from separate personal viewpoints.

    None of these entities, First Principles, logic, math, were discovered by examining the physical world. They were discovered by examining the non-physical, intellectual region of existence – a reality that is non-material.

    How to deny this reality? Is there a rational way to deny this non-material reality without denying the source of rationality itself which is non-material? The only philosophers to deny non-material reality and its contents are those who devolved into Anti-Rational philosophies.

    Even evolutionists and scientism-ists agree that logic exists, math exists. But then they must develop new denials, such as Dennett’s idea that consciousness is only an illusion, or Minsky’s idea that the mind is merely a meat machine, and that free agency doesn’t exist – all attempts to kill the idea of dual realities. And all without a hint or jot of material evidence to support them.

  165. on 29 Oct 2011 at 3:48 pm 165.Lou (DFW) said …

    162.40 year Atheist said …

    “Atheism is based on the repressive philosophical stance of total materialism, in a single, physical reality, a self-refuting position that is required for support.”

    Why do you continue to falsify the meaning of atheism, especially when it isn’t necessary? All you must do is provide evidence of your imaginary god. It’s that simple. No lying about atheism is required.

  166. on 29 Oct 2011 at 5:05 pm 166.Observer said …

    #162 40YA Your foolishness is unbounded.

    Hor- Repeatedly I have posted the information on the Great Apes chromosomes, and the smoking-gun telemere sequences from non-homo Great Apes in the human centromere. You choose to ignore real information, and proceed to impress us with your alleged facilities at phone repair ( of course, if you are actually involved with cellphones, such shoddy hiring practices could help explain why the US is now around last in communication infrastructure for developed countries ).

  167. on 29 Oct 2011 at 5:06 pm 167.Observer said …

    Hor- The centromere is in human chromosome 2.

  168. on 29 Oct 2011 at 5:39 pm 168.Anonymous said …

    The other piece of nonsense from 40YA’s post is that he is simply trying to dress up the argument that as he has no evidence for his god then his god must exist outside of space and time – whatever that means.

    An argument for a god that exists in a non-material evidence-free alternate reality yet is claimed to physically manifest and interact with his adherents is as about as desperate as one can get.

  169. on 29 Oct 2011 at 6:46 pm 169.Anonymous said …

    Or to sum up 40YA’s ~500 word screed in 10 words or less. “God cannot be proven to exist, therefore god exists”.

  170. on 29 Oct 2011 at 7:11 pm 170.Severin said …

    162 40YA
    ” I can do the same with logic. I can do the same with math, especially higher math.”

    Then why don’t you, finally.
    I asure you some of us do understand both logic and math, including “higher math”.

    But we would be very satisfied with explanations without evidences. With DESCRIPTIONS,for example.

    HOW did god create universe? WHEN? You dont have to support your arguments with math (logic would be highly appreciated), you just TELL US some details about it.

    fter you expose your vision of god crating universe, explain what, the hell, THAT god has to do with Christianity, and what is Christianity (or any other religion) actually based on.

    A blah-blah moron you are.

  171. on 29 Oct 2011 at 7:57 pm 171.Anonymous said …

    As if we didn’t know that the blah-blah moron has things backwards, here’s some excerpts from his journal. It from the post he cut&posted above and is reference to someone challenging him as does Severin above.

    Many decades ago I attended a Christian Science meeting. I came away with the firm idea that the “seekers” would not accept a deity if he showed up in a pillar of fire and set their hair on fire. They want not to believe and not to be subject to the humiliation of being subjects instead of elites.

    You say you want to believe or at least be convinced, yet you continue to muck around in the physical reality only. You are wasting your time, it is not there.

    Once again, we see someone claiming that the position is “to want not to believe” when the position is absence of belief. He also shows the us-and-them attitude and denigration towards people who ask him for proof. Does this clown think that people want not to believe in dragons, and want not to believe in elves and, want not to believe in fairies, or is this special pleading just for gods?

    Finally, he concludes with an attempt to hide his god where no-one can look for it. It’s so odd that theists will claim something exists, claim that something is true, yet when you ask them to demonstrate this, they tell you it can’t be done. In the words of Bill Engvall, “here’s your sign”.

  172. on 29 Oct 2011 at 9:02 pm 172.DPK said …

    Pretty much what I was thinking reading 40 year’s post. If his supposed god does not exist in the physical world, and does not interact with the physical world, then what is his purpose? If he does not exist in the physical world, but DOES interact in the physical world, then there must be evidence left behind.
    Ya can’t have it both ways. And what is the difference between claiming the reality of gods, and claiming the reality of ANY other imaginary creature or entity you care to bring up, like non-physical purple horned unicorns or 50 ton invisible giraffes? The exact some logic could apply to them. Then we would have to say that anything you can imagine is real… and in an imaginary sense, I suppose it is. It’s a real imaginary creation. For example… almost everyone knows who “Peter Pan” is. They have a picture of him in their minds, they can describe him, his attire, his personality, his exploits… he is a “real” imaginary creature. But to claim that Peter Pan actually exists??? Well, you’d need to be seriously deluded to think that.

  173. on 29 Oct 2011 at 9:39 pm 173.Anonymous said …

    DPK, the difference between non-physical 50 ton invisible Giraffes that have the power to heal and perform miracles, and non-physical gods that have the power to heal and perform miracles is that you’d have to be nuts to believe that non-physical 50 ton invisible Giraffes can perform miracles but non-physical gods, well they’re the real deal. Everyone whose been dead for over 2000 years knows that!

    After all, if non-physical 50 ton invisible Giraffes were real, then every culture in the world would have stories about them, but they don’t! You didn’t think of that did you, you smarty-pants atheists! LOL!!1!!!1!!11!!!

    Atheists are so silly with their reliance on being consistent and applying the same standards to primitive superstitions as they do to modern day fairy stories.

  174. on 29 Oct 2011 at 11:57 pm 174.The kid against the world said …

    There is evidence that proves that God exists but people still choose not to believe in it. For example somebody may believe that man has never set foot on the moon even though there are pictures and other evidence that proves it, they still choose not to believe it. And to the people who say that God never answers prayers well he does but there is a reason why he doesn’t answer. In the book of Mark, Jesus says “Have faith in God, truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes what they say will happen, it will be done for them. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. For example if you was praying one day and asked for cancer to be cured around the world you will have to believe that it has been done you can’t just expect it to be done if you have doubt in yourself. That is how people were healed by Jesus because they had complete faith. You can’t experiment this because God is way smarter than you are he knows all about science, and arithmetic. He is the one who made the universe so he should know. Satan was like God’s right hand man but then he thought he can do better. Later on there was war in heaven, Ark Angel Michael and his army helped defend heaven and defeated Satan, then God cast him out to hell. Satan was then known as the father of lies and the trickster. And now he is tricking man to worship him instead of God. There are consequences to this atheistism it is all explained in the book of Relvalations. And if you say that people like me who believe in God are crazy well we’re not. And put yourself in God’s shoes, wouldn’t you be angry at your creation? You better be glad that he isn’t as angry as he was in the new testament or else we would all be dead, trust me nobody was as angry as he was especially in Genesis.

  175. on 30 Oct 2011 at 12:46 am 175.Horatiio said …

    “This is consistent with their repression of reality into a single, physical reality, and their misapprehension of the principles of science.”

    40YA

    Another great post as always. The facts the atheist attack you and not your facts proves the point.

    Atheist really do have little understanding what science actually proves and what science attempts to explain. Since they don’t understand science they believe whatever they hear as truth. Nose Buster (nick for Observer) shows he has no idea.

    I did get get DPK to admit he has no clue regarding origins so progress is being made.

    Keep posting. It is great to read some well thought out arguments from an adult.

  176. on 30 Oct 2011 at 12:48 am 176.Observer said …

    40YA – Make us laugh. Pray tell, what “higher” math are you familiar with Bozo?

  177. on 30 Oct 2011 at 1:16 am 177.Observer said …

    #172 Kid- First learn to write simple sentences and to spell. Second, learn elementary critical thinking and logic. Then give some thought to what you believe. Keep in mind, the Bible was written to justify itself. It was apparent to the hucksters that wrote the Bible prayer was useless for getting anything done in the real world. They had to make up stories like those you quote to explain the obvious uselessness of the activity.

    Get a real education, and not one from one of the xtian diploma mills like Liberty, Oral Roberts, and the 700 club joke Regency. Try to get enough knowledge to get decent SATs, then at least go to a state university if you live in North, Midwest, West, or NC.

  178. on 30 Oct 2011 at 1:23 am 178.Observer said …

    #173 The Hor is now telling us he has learned something about what science is, and what it is not. Apparently he has done a lot of work since his last post. Please enlighten us buffoon of the blog. And by the way, what did you make of the Homo versus other Great Ape chromosomes. Please tell us in the context of you newly acquired knowledge about science, and specifically, tell us why all the other geneticists and biologists I have ever heard are at odds with you the authority. And do not fail to explain why what I said about the centromere of human chromosome 2 is wrong.

    Of course you will do nothing stated above because you are a know-nothing fool.

  179. on 30 Oct 2011 at 2:23 am 179.DPK said …

    Hor, you are so full of shit it’s not funny.
    I stated honestly, I do not “KNOW” (implying certainty) how life originated… and neither do you.
    You restate that to say I “don’t have a clue.”
    I have an abundance of clues… it’s called evidence. What do you have? Fables and stories? My evidence is not yet conclusive.
    Tell us o learned one. EXACTLY how did life originate on the Earth? Since I “haven’t got a clue” your certain knowledge will ba a great gift to the world. Please be prepared to back up your claims with actual evidence.
    You are such a blowhard.

  180. on 30 Oct 2011 at 3:27 am 180.Anonymous said …

    So much free food here, but let’s leave some for someone else. So, let’s pick one. Kid said

    And put yourself in God’s shoes, wouldn’t you be angry at your creation? You better be glad that he isn’t as angry as he was in the new testament or else we would all be dead, trust me nobody was as angry as he was especially in Genesis.

    OK, I’m in god’s shoes. I’m, according to Xtians, perfect, infallible, and ever-loving. I’m the perfect being who has knowledge of all that was, is, and will be.

    As god, I have the ability to create perfection, instead I create man. I know that he’s flawed, I know how, and I know exactly what he’s going to do. Because I created him flawed, I know that’s he’s going to mess up and I know how.

    So, you ask me, in this god’s shoes, wouldn’t I be angry at the imperfection I created even though I could have done better. Wouldn’t I, as god, be justified at being angry at my creations for being as I made them?

    Well, if I was an ordinary, kind and caring person, let alone an omni-benevelont being, then obviously no – I’d not be justified in being angry at my creations. But, if I was an ego-maniacal, psychopathic, sick bastard with an abusive personality who delighted in tormenting and hurting things that were only doing what they were designed to do. Then, yes, I suppose so.

  181. on 30 Oct 2011 at 4:23 am 181.DPK said …

    Aside from that, Genesis is in the Old Testament… and isn’t anger a human flaw?
    Didn’t god already know he would be angry and have to kill all those people? So why did he make them in the first place?
    It says in the story of the flood, that after god killed (almost) every living thing on the earth (except those on the ark, and presumably fish, and marine invertebrates.. and marine mammals, some amphibians, I guess most algae and bacteria, and oh yeah.. olive trees) that he “regretted” what he had done, and gave mankind rainbows as a sign of his promise never to do it again.
    Uh, excuse me? How can an omniscient, perfect being have regrets? He surely would have known he was going to regret what he had done and either not done it, or undone it afterward.
    Kid, I could spend three hours pointing out all the complete absurdities in your post. For goodness sake, wake up and give some thought to the absolutely ludicrous things you are saying.

    “if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes what they say will happen, it will be done for them.”

    Why then, have we NEVER seen any mountains thrown into the sea? Are you saying no one has EVER really believed that to be true? No one in the history of the world?

    “Satan was like God’s right hand man but then he thought he can do better. Later on there was war in heaven, Ark Angel Michael and his army helped defend heaven and defeated Satan, then God cast him out to hell.”

    And wasn’t it god who created Satan, knowing full well exactly what would happen? Your god seems like quite a screw up… he can’t seem to get anything right! I think if there is a race of gods, your god must be like the high school drop out loser of all the gods… the one who fucks up everything he tries. Maybe that’s why he hasn’t been around of late… maybe he’s in like “god juvie” or even doing hard time in god prison. When he gets out, he’ll be back to mess with us some more.
    Yeah.. that’s probably it. Makes as much sense as any of your fables anyway…

  182. on 30 Oct 2011 at 2:39 pm 182.Truth said …

    Observer claims he gave information on human chromosome 2. He then asks why it is wrong? Here is what he stated:

    “He elaborates about how the about how homo has 46 chromosomes versus the ape 48 chromosomes. For anyone with an IQ in excess of 90″

    OK, we have the 46 chromosomes vs 48 chromosomes argument here. To be completely accurate we have a 95% commonality. So everyone is now suppose to jump for joy and proclaim the truth that Apes and man have a common ancestor? Similarity does not equal truth. This is a conclusion that could be followed up with the following.

    Here is some more compelling evidence. We have a human genome that contains DNA more complex than most computer programs and containing more information than a set on encyclopedias. THAT is compelling evidence for a Creator to anyone with any intellect.

    Observer will not agree because he cherry-picks what he does and not believe. It is classic intellectual dishonesty.

  183. on 30 Oct 2011 at 3:11 pm 183.Joe said …

    Re #164 @40Year Atheist

    This is one of the very few more intelligent comments here, so I will take out the time to reply.

    You claim that atheism is subject to a “repressive philosophical stance of total materialism”, which is why atheists fail to see that there might be another type or level of reality, a reality beyond the sensory physical empirical reality. You continue by further elaborating on this claim and by giving examples of knowledge that, according to your claim, is part of this second, non-sensory reality (logic, mathematics).

    I see 5 intellectual problems here:

    1. Philosophers of the mind have long debated (within the Western world tradition explicitly since Descartes) whether the human mind is made of some special “mind stuff” sui generis or is part of the physical reality. Nowadays, in particular against the background of more recent developments in an area of research that is called “analytical philosophy of the mind”, fewer and fewer philosophers feel that there are sufficient reasons to assume that humas are dealing with two types of reality, a sensory and a non-sensory one. There are at least two major reasons for this development:

    a) A philosophy of the mind that is based on a dualism of “mind stuff” versus physical reality leaves more questions open than it can answer (in particular the question of how these two realities could be related to each other).

    b) Neuroscience has provided overwhelming evidence (via MRI) that the intuitive and intellectual things going on in our mind have empirical correlates in the physical reality, to an extent that it seems that the reality of the mind is identical with the physical reality (though we might perceive the former in a different way than the latter).

    Because of these developments you will not find many philosophers of the mind anymore who still share your idea of a dualism. I doubt that these recent advances in the philosophy of mind will ever allow us to find an intellectually honest way of re-describing the human mind in terms of a dualism again.

    2. You use Math and Logic as examples of the second type of reality and claim that with mathematical and logical truth “the personal nature of apprehending and comprehending … means that it is up to each individual to capture the experience for himself. This is entirely different from physically existential experiences, which can be shared simultaneously, although viewed from separate personal viewpoints.”
    You probably know that Mathematics (in particular higher Mathematics) uses proofs, i.e. Mathematics does not just rely on individuals capturing the experience for themselves. Instead, proofs can be checked by many people at the same time (and nowadays many proofs can even be checked by computers). This is why I doubt that a claim of mathematical truth is as different from a claim of truth regarding the physical reality, as you seem to surmise.

    3. Even if there exists such a second type of reality, the Bible suggests that physical reality is strongly influenced by the non-sensory reality. God is described as someone who interferes with human history (Israel), who gets involved in the physical reality (God is said to answer prayer) and who even becomes part of physical reality (“the word became flesh”). So if a second non-sensory reality exists, it should still be possible, according to the Bible, to find sound sensory evidence for interventions in the non-sensory reality. But this evidence does not exist.

    4. There are numerous stories of people who lost their faith in God after having been devout believers for decades (I am among these). However, there are no stories about people who accepted the truth of a logical statement or a mathematical theorem and suddenly arrived at the conviction that they were wrong. This suggests the idea that, even if there exists another, non-sensory reality, the reality of Mathematics and the reality of God are different realities. So, for the sake of intellectual honstesty, you would have to operate with 3 realities (if you want to keep your ideas about mathematics, logic and the mind): the physical reality, the intellectual reality and the spiritual reality. For the third reality you would still have problem 3. mentioned above.

    So much for now. Just some food for thought.

  184. on 30 Oct 2011 at 3:29 pm 184.RJ said …

    RE: #174 “Kid”

    “Satan was like God’s right hand man but then he thought he can do better. Later on there was war in heaven, Ark Angel Michael and his army helped defend heaven and defeated Satan, then God cast him out to hell.”

    It makes me crazy that it never occurs to the yo-yos who believe all that claptrap to notice the gaping holes in these biblical myths.

    Firstly, isn’t heaven supposed to be perfect? A place where sin can’t exist? Yet you unquestioningly believe that circumstances to cause a war—and the war itself—can take place in this sinless place of perfection? And that imperfect and thus sinful beings can exist in the first place in that perfect place? Where did Satan get his sinful nature from? And if heaven was so pure and perfect, then it follows that the beings existing there would have to be pure and perfect as well. Which means Satan was perfect, too—and yet he was still capable of such sinful, rebellious thoughts, this perfect being.

    Mindboggling.

  185. on 30 Oct 2011 at 4:33 pm 185.The kid against the world said …

    Like most people in the world, I do have questions about the Bible. Sometimes answers cannot be given. I don’t hate atheistic people because I can understand why they don’t believe in God, but I choose to believe because I have so much faith. God made us to have the freedom of choice, so we don’t act like robots. Humans were perfect at the beginning, but Satan tricked Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge. Then she gave the fruit to Adam. That is when mankind became imperfect. So my point is that everything has been perfect at one point but it won’t stay the same forever. God created Satan perfect but remember that God created the freedom of choice. Satan chose to be imperfect.

  186. on 30 Oct 2011 at 5:17 pm 186.Observer said …

    #182 Truth (Dumbass) It is a sorry state that your reading comprehension is below a 2nd grader. The issue is neither the commonality of the DNA nor the number of chromosomes per se, it is the location of the vestigial telemere sequences in the middle of chromosome 2 of Homo. Try to learn something about what your intend to criticize prior to displaying fully your ignorance and very probably withering denseness.

    AND ultimately, your argument hinges on our ignorance of molecular biology. This is another god-of-the-gaps argument. Consider consider the amount of knowledge gained about molecular biology in the past 50 years. What will be the missing bits of our knowledge if the trajectory of knowledge growth continues unabated for another 200 years? Will “God” the realm of be then? Relegated to predicting lottery winning numbers and the yen/renmembi cross?

  187. on 30 Oct 2011 at 5:20 pm 187.Observer said …

    “Will “God” the realm of be then? Relegated to predicting lottery winning numbers and the yen/renmembi cross?” should read

    “What will the realm of “God” be then? Relegated to predicting lottery winning numbers and the yen/renmembi cross?”

    Apologies- Typing too fast.

  188. on 30 Oct 2011 at 6:19 pm 188.Vivian said …

    I belong to a group for missing children. Whenever a child goes missing the same thing happens. I was annoyed when somebody advised people to pray so that their children dont go missing. I think teaching your kids not to meet with people they meet online might be a better way.

  189. on 30 Oct 2011 at 6:58 pm 189.Coleman said …

    It seems the argument for the thread is”I don’t understand how God works so He does not exist”.

    This is an obvious logical fallacy therefore the argument is moot.

  190. on 30 Oct 2011 at 7:21 pm 190.Lou (DFW) said …

    182.Truth said …

    “Similarity does not equal truth.”

    Yet creationists use it as evidence for a common designer.

    “Observer will not agree because he cherry-picks what he does and not believe. It is classic intellectual dishonesty.”

    Actually, it’s creationists who cherry pick the evidence of evolution. When animals have common characteristics, it’s because they had the same designer – god. But when they have dissimilar characteristics, that’s used as evidence against evolution.

    That being said, either way, it’s 100% irrelevant to discussion of the god fantasy. The ONLY thing relevant to the discussion is for theists to produce evidence for their imaginary god, but they NEVER, EVER do.

  191. on 30 Oct 2011 at 7:26 pm 191.Lou (DFW) said …

    175.Horatiio said …

    “The facts the atheist attack you and not your facts proves the point.”

    Lying about “atheism” is not factual.

    “I did get get DPK to admit he has no clue regarding origins so progress is being made.”

    No, you did not. He wrote no such thing. Again, your compulsion for lying is demonstrated, rather than any evidence for your imaginary god.

    “Keep posting. It is great to read some well thought out arguments from an adult.”

    As opposed to someone who writes about his “Broadway In The Basement” fantasy wherein he imagines another poster dancing with Wiccans?

  192. on 30 Oct 2011 at 7:53 pm 192.RJ said …

    RE: #85 “Kid”

    “Humans were perfect at the beginning, but Satan tricked Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge. Then she gave the fruit to Adam. That is when mankind became imperfect.”

    Kid, think about what you’re saying. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they wouldn’t have (1)disobeyed god (2)been capable of being tricked. And if all was perfect before The Fall, how could Satan (i.e. evil) be present? Wouldn’t his presence negate the perfection???

    And going back to your earlier statement (#174):

    “[Archangel] Michael and his army helped defend heaven and defeated Satan, then God cast him out to hell.”

    An all-powerful, all-mighty God who can just speak anything into and out of existence needs an “army” to defend heaven and defeat Satan?? Seriously? And why “cast him out to hell”? Why didn’t he just destroy him? He didn’t think twice about killing a multitude of men, women, and children in a flood because they pissed him off. But Satan, who is “the father of lies and the trickster” gets to continue his existence?

    Have you any critical thinking skills at all???

  193. on 30 Oct 2011 at 8:17 pm 193.Observer said …

    #189 Coleman

    “It seems the argument for the thread is ‘I don’t understand how God works so He does not exist’.

    This is an obvious logical fallacy therefore the argument is moot.”

    Golly Gosh Coleman! Gee Whillikers! You really tripped us up! Your unmitigated brilliance crushes all of us heretics. Where can I get saved? Will it include a free lobotomy so I will be able to think like you?

  194. on 30 Oct 2011 at 8:22 pm 194.Observer said …

    #188 Vivian. You are absolutely correct. You give a perfect example of using rational thought to arrive at a solution to a vicious and insidious problem in our society. This is also akin to educating children about intelligently and thoroughly teaching children about sex and drugs.

    Unfortunately, there are far to many fools, such as a frequent poster on this site named “Horatio”, who would go the prayer route, trust in gawd, it’s gawd’s will, etc.

  195. on 30 Oct 2011 at 8:31 pm 195.Anonymous said …

    I don’t hate atheistic people because I can understand why they don’t believe in God,

    Can you, do you understand why atheists don’t believe in not just your god, but any god? Why do you think that is?

    but I choose to believe because I have so much faith.

    Now, you are quite honest here and, honestly, your position is what confounds so many of us. You shouldn’t have to choose to believe because of faith, yet you do. Another way of putting that is that you believe in your particular version of god despite the lack of evidence and despite the obvious contradictions and failings. That’s what faith is all about. Now at this point Hor or one of the other trolls will pipe in that atheists have “faith” in science but that’s just a diversionary tactic.

    You’re getting quite a pounding here, Kid, but hopefully you can see that everyone is simply trying to get you to think.

  196. on 30 Oct 2011 at 9:54 pm 196.LL said …

    “Can you, do you understand why atheists don’t believe in not just your god, but any god? Why do you think that is?”

    I can’t say, frankly it is baffling. Obviously they don’t have the relationship with Christ which I understand. But anyone who is intellectually honest could never look at creation and claim there is no God. It would seem likely they suppress the knowledge of God.

    Based on the youth who get involved in this sect, society always have these fringe beliefs based in nonsense so I chalk it up to that.

  197. on 30 Oct 2011 at 11:32 pm 197.Observer said …

    #196 LL It is great that another intellectual heavyweight, and one invoking his relationship to the Halloween appropriate wish-fulfilling Jewish zombie Jesus, who just KNOWS creation implies the existence of the God of the Bible, complete with the idiocy of the Genesis myth, and wondrous fables of the Ark with all the pairs of animals, dinosaurs, bugs, various and sundry genocides, you name it. LL what is the goofball cult you belong to?

  198. on 30 Oct 2011 at 11:36 pm 198.Anonymous said …

    LL, you have a relationship with Christ? How does that work? A relationship is a two way thing, presumably you communicate (talk, pray, etc), does Christ speak back to you? Do you hear his words in your head? Same for your god, does he speak to you out loud?

    So you look around and see “God”. How do you know which of the thousands of gods to attribute this creation to? Also, if you have this knowledge, please tell us HOW did he do it and who created him?

    What about all the other gods in mythology and the other creation myths? Are they right or wrong and why? You do reject Allah, Thor, Odin and friends, don’t you?

    Finally, it seems that you are Christian. So, why exactly do you think that 2000 or so years ago, a group of uneducated desert nomads, most of whom could not read or write, who believed that a flat earth was the center of a tiny universe, with stars were fixed in the heavens, with no knowledge of science were able to determine the answer to one of the greatest mysteries ever? How did they do this, other than making shit up?

  199. on 31 Oct 2011 at 12:53 am 199.Horatiio said …

    “Based on the youth who get involved in this sect, society always have these fringe beliefs based in nonsense so I chalk it up to that.

    Its true LL but it is called Aspergers syndrome. I have read some of the studies. Its fits the atheism disease perfectly! We need to encourage them to get help.

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/05/29/people-with-aspergers-less-likely-to-see-purpose-behind-the-events-in-their-lives/

    Have a great week boys, play nice and get some help.

    Your friend Hor.

  200. on 31 Oct 2011 at 1:22 am 200.Alex said …

    I resent the statement at the top of the page calling Christian believers stupid, because I am one and it’s really not nice to call people stupid. DPK, are you God? I seriously doubt that you are God. And if you’re not God, I really don’t think you know what God thinks or does. How can you possibly claim to understand what God does when you are just a mere human, a speck of dust to God’s infinite wisdom and power? Yet, we’re all specks of dust to God’s infinite wisdom and power, yet He cares for and loves each and every one of us and he has a plan for each and every one of our lives, including yours. If someone has to get super sick, then miraculously better for even one person to come to know Christ, that is better than no one getting sick at all and no one coming to know Christ. Maybe if you just tried to understand that God is a whole lot smarter than you before you go and call thousands of people who have come to know Him stupid. But seriously, God has a plan for your life, whether you like it or not. I think you should learn more about God by maybe going to church or reading the Bible. It could change your life.

  201. on 31 Oct 2011 at 1:58 am 201.Anonymous said …

    Ah, Horatio the forum troll is back on his Asperger’s kick. He does this to avoid admitting that he has no evidence for his imaginary god.

    As an example of Horatio’s dishonesty, the “study” he cites was an undergrad’s project involving 61 people. That’s 61 out of billions. It actually showed that some people don’t need to invent reasons for perfectly natural events. Horatio, and other desperate theists, like to make the results out to be something other than they are.

    Horatio also, conveniently for him, but unfortunately for him, also leaves out the part where a correlation was noted between the answers of those people who see the hand of god in things and those that have symptoms of schizophrenia.

    So, go for it Horatio, let’s see you explain how your god created the universe. Don’t forget though, by your own citation, you’ll be doing so as someone exhibiting signs of schizophrenia.

  202. on 31 Oct 2011 at 2:01 am 202.Anonymous said …

    Alex, of course DPK doesn’t understand what your god thinks. How could he, when all gods are imaginary?

    Think differently? Move past claiming that your god exists and prove that he exists. It’s really that simple yet no-one here can do so.

  203. on 31 Oct 2011 at 2:31 am 203.DPK said …

    200.Alex said …
    “I resent the statement at the top of the page calling Christian believers stupid, because I am one and it’s really not nice to call people stupid. DPK, are you God?”

    Alex, why do you doubt that I am god? How do you know that perhaps I’m not the real god and I’m just trying to reach you with the truth about the false god you worship. How do you know I am not simply trying to show you the truth? Seriously, how do you KNOW?

    D

  204. on 31 Oct 2011 at 2:38 am 204.DPK said …

    Have a great week boys, play nice and get some help.

    Your friend Hor.

    Horatiio… I have many friends who are people of faith. For the most part they are decent and honest people, although we disagree on basic philosophical issues.
    You are not one of them.

    If I were a christian, I would be embarrassed and ashamed to count someone like you as a fellow christian.

    You are not my friend. You are a lying, intellectually dishonest and completely disingenuous person and a disgrace to anyone who actually believes their is a god judging their actions.

    LOL

  205. on 31 Oct 2011 at 2:43 am 205.Lou (DFW) said …

    199.Horatiio said …

    “Its true LL but it is called Aspergers syndrome.”

    It’s not true. You are a liar.

    “I have read some of the studies. Its fits the atheism disease perfectly!”

    Really? Please post some links to these alleged studies.

    “We need to encourage them to get help.”

    And “we” encourage you to get help for your compulsive lying “disease.”

  206. on 31 Oct 2011 at 4:09 am 206.Alex said …

    “Alex, why do you doubt that I am god? How do you know that perhaps I’m not the real god and I’m just trying to reach you with the truth about the false god you worship. How do you know I am not simply trying to show you the truth? Seriously, how do you KNOW?”

    DPK, because you are saying that there is no GOD! OR GODS! You obviously would not be a god saying that there are no gods at all and that we came from some speck of dust that expanded with no help from god! LOGIC!!!

  207. on 31 Oct 2011 at 1:11 pm 207.DPK said …

    Ok, you caught me. I’m not god. But the point was that your belief in any particular god or gods is based on nothing more than someone saying, “such and such is true.” And you accept it on faith.

    People used to worship Zeus. I assume you realize he was completely imaginary? People used to worship the sun. I assume you realize that the sun is not a god?

    Now, since you quoted LOGIC, tell us what logical reason you have to believe that your particular god is any different from those? Show us some evidence to support the idea that any of the claims you make about the reality of your god are actually true. We are all waiting to hear.

  208. on 31 Oct 2011 at 3:03 pm 208.RJ said …

    “Alex, why do you doubt that I am god?”

    “…because you are saying that there is no GOD! OR GODS! You obviously would not be a god saying that there are no gods at all and that we came from some speck of dust that expanded with no help from god!”

    Kinda sounds like Alex is implying he would believe DPK was God just on his word if DPK was saying godly things instead…doesn’ it…? Which gives credence to DPK’s reply: “Your belief in [god] is based on nothing more than someone saying, “such and such is true.”

  209. on 31 Oct 2011 at 3:11 pm 209.RJ said …

    RE: #201

    “…let’s see you explain how your god created the universe.”

    Didn’t he just go “Let there be this, let there be that” for 6 days? And then he was so exhausted from all that Let-There-Be-ing he needed to rest for an entire day!

  210. on 31 Oct 2011 at 7:36 pm 210.Observer said …

    #209 RJ Very well said!

  211. on 31 Oct 2011 at 8:38 pm 211.DPK said …

    “Which gives credence to DPK’s reply: “Your belief in [god] is based on nothing more than someone saying, “such and such is true.”

    Well, it worked for Joseph Smith, so there is no denying that you can make up almost any crazy ass story and people will buy it.

    But the well documented and scientifically sound theory of evolution?? No way are they believing that!

    Magic golden plates that can only be translated with magic rocks? No problem. An entire nation of Israelites living in North America pre-Columbus. Sure!

    Boggles the mind.

    Hey Alex… still waiting to hear your logical explanation about why you think gods exists, and that your particular god is the right one. Come on now, you said logic proved that I’M not god.. so there must be some logic that tells you Yahweh IS, right??

  212. on 01 Nov 2011 at 9:09 am 212.Severin said …

    196 LL
    “Obviously they don’t have the relationship with Christ which I understand.”
    1. Are you telling us that Muslims, Jews, …, are atheists because they have no relationship with Christ?
    2. What is your realtionship with Christ? “Relationship” is a two direction road. Is Christ communicating with you directly? Does he speak to you?
    If not, how do you know he is real?
    When I was a kid, I “communicated” with my Muncho immaginary friend, then, when I got about 7 or 8, I understoot it was delusion. Muncho NEVER, EVER communicated with me. It was one direction way: I was the only one who talked!

    “But anyone who is intellectually honest could never look at creation and claim there is no God.”
    I think I am intelectually honest. For example, when I don’t know something, I honestly say I don’t know it. I do NOT force stupid, illogical alternative explanations, like many different gods, only because I do not understand something.
    Of course, I would immediatelly say there is a god if I SAW creation. So far, I have not seen any. No one can tell me how to distinguish creation from non-creation.
    Can you?

  213. on 01 Nov 2011 at 3:13 pm 213.SRFJR said …

    Hello everyone, I’m new to this forum and felt compelled to contribute because there seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation on this Post. Prayer seems to be the hottest topic.

    God is a Father and only answers the prayers of his children. If you are not willingly reconciled to God through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice for your sins, then you are not His child. Ergo, no answered prayer.

    God always answers the prayers of his children. But sometimes we don’t like/recognize His answer. Sometimes he says “yes”, sometimes “no”, and sometimes “wait”. But he always listens and answers- in his time and way, not ours.

    As to evidence for God, the problem is not a lack evidence for God, but that we have ignored the evidence that already exists. Read Romans Chapters 1 and 2 and you will see that God has placed evidence for himself within the heart of each person. It is innate. First, The immenseness and order of creation demands an intelligent “Creator”(even if you did not see the act of Creation!). And secondly, God has placed “conscience” within each one of us. Its that small still voice that tells us whether we are doing right or wrong at any given moment. All peoples now and in history intrinsically know right from wrong. Thats why all cultures have had more or less the same laws and standards. Lying, cheating, murder, adultery, etc. are always considered wrong everywhere. Conversely, good deeds are always applauded.

    So creation and morality are two evidences of God that demand a verdict. If your verdict is that there must be a God, then I urge you to seek Him. When you respond to the light you have received, more will be given to you. God will reveal himself to you. Read the Gospel of John to find out more.

    If however your verdict is that God still does not exist or matter, then unfortunately you fall into the category of persons that Romans chapter 1 says “suppress the truth because of wickedness”. In other words, you love your sin more than God. You want to be your own God instead of turning to the true God. I see a lot of pride, hatred, anger, bitterness, and arrogance displayed on this forum. Why cling to this empty way of life when you can turn to Christ and have your sins forgiven? Then and only then can you live a live of peace, hope, and love.

  214. on 01 Nov 2011 at 4:43 pm 214.RJ said …

    RE: #213

    *Sighhhhhh….*

  215. on 01 Nov 2011 at 4:50 pm 215.Lou (DFW) said …

    213.SRFJR said …

    “Hello everyone, I’m new to this forum and felt compelled to contribute because there seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation on this Post. Prayer seems to be the hottest topic.”

    Your entire answer is nothing but typical theist rationalization nonsense.

    “God is a Father and only answers the prayers of his children. If you are not willingly reconciled to God through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice for your sins, then you are not His child. Ergo, no answered prayer.”

    If god created me, then I am his “child.” I shouldn’t have to be “willingly reconciled to my “father.” If parents required that of their children, then because of our morality, we would punish them and take their children from them.

    “God always answers the prayers of his children. But sometimes we don’t like/recognize His answer. Sometimes he says “yes”, sometimes “no”, and sometimes “wait”. But he always listens and answers- in his time and way, not ours.”

    How does one know the difference between “no” and “wait?”

    “As to evidence for God, the problem is not a lack evidence for God, but that we have ignored the evidence that already exists. Read Romans Chapters 1 and 2 and you will see that God has placed evidence for himself within the heart of each person. It is innate.”

    The bible is not evidence of anything except words written by men, not a god. Why does god need a book to explain his maniacal ways?

    “First, The immenseness and order of creation demands an intelligent “Creator”(even if you did not see the act of Creation!).”

    There are much more plausible, logical, and believable explanations than god did it. Even if there aren’t, then “creation” is not evidence of a god. It’s only evidence of “creation.”

    “And secondly, God has placed “conscience” within each one of us. Its that small still voice that tells us whether we are doing right or wrong at any given moment. All peoples now and in history intrinsically know right from wrong. Thats why all cultures have had more or less the same laws and standards. Lying, cheating, murder, adultery, etc. are always considered wrong everywhere. Conversely, good deeds are always applauded.”

    Where is the evidence that some god implanted “conscience?” Do you think that animals have “conscience?” There’s evidence that they do.

    “So creation and morality are two evidences of God that demand a verdict.”

    No, they are not.

    “If your verdict is that there must be a God, then I urge you to seek Him. When you respond to the light you have received, more will be given to you. God will reveal himself to you. Read the Gospel of John to find out more.”

    People seek god all the time. But he never reveals himself. If he did, then this blog wouldn’t exist.

    “If however your verdict is that God still does not exist or matter, then unfortunately you fall into the category of persons that Romans chapter 1 says “suppress the truth because of wickedness”. In other words, you love your sin more than God. You want to be your own God instead of turning to the true God. I see a lot of pride, hatred, anger, bitterness, and arrogance displayed on this forum. Why cling to this empty way of life when you can turn to Christ and have your sins forgiven? Then and only then can you live a live of peace, hope, and love.”

    The heck with you and your xtian judgement and hypocrisy. The vast majority of people who do not believe in god are moral, law-abiding people. There is a large record of xtian hypocrites who are immoral adulterers, pedophiles, and thieves. Where is your god when those who operate in his name are violating us?

  216. on 01 Nov 2011 at 4:53 pm 216.Observer said …

    #213 SRFJR Praise the Lord Brother! That really clears things up for me. Should I drop to my knees and start braying “JEEHAYSUS!!” now, or wait until I can find a local cretin-fest this Sunday?

    But one of a treasure-trove of idiotic points you make needs be answered first. I will agree that the universe, which you hopefully are colloquially calling “creation”, is immense. But how can you possibly say it is orderly in anyway that does not require loads of explanation to excuse the manifold randomness? How do you explain a good Christian mother developing something as disorderly as a fatal breast cancer? To me, uncontrolled cell growth from the very organ that allow the species to propagate leading to the destruction of the individual sounds pretty far from orderly, humane, or anything other than the product of a very messy chemical process.

  217. on 01 Nov 2011 at 5:14 pm 217.Lou (DFW) said …

    216.Observer said …

    “But how can you possibly say it [the universe] is orderly in anyway that does not require loads of explanation to excuse the manifold randomness?”

    No kidding! How anyone can imagine that the universe is the work of some intelligence when there’s nothing intelligent about it?

  218. on 01 Nov 2011 at 7:48 pm 218.Observer said …

    #213 SRFJR (is this a reference to father on son incest? Is that where you found our beloved wish-fulfilling Jewish zombie?)

    I just saw this sordidness from God’s Creation in today’s paper …

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/science/animal-cannibalism-may-make-good-evolutionary-sense.html

    I am pretty sure the pitchfork carrying guy isn’t able to “create” so it must be your “God” with all his perfection of design.

  219. on 01 Nov 2011 at 10:56 pm 219.Anonymous said …

    Here’s a plain English version of the story SRFJR and friends were trying to tell us. Really makes sense, too.

    http://www.fakebible.com/

  220. on 01 Nov 2011 at 11:08 pm 220.Megabyte said …

    SRFJR,

    A very good answer but you will only continue to find anger and bitterness here. They are not interested in discussion, only arguing, belittlement and derision. This is not true of all atheist but of most here.

    As a dear friend of mine has recommended it is best for some just to give them a hug and put them down for a nap. Only those with a true inquiry are worth the time.

  221. on 01 Nov 2011 at 11:34 pm 221.Anonymous said …

    Megabyte, welcome back! You’ll find that there were several questions directed to you but you disappeared soon after they were posted. See #19, #22 and #24 and in that general area.

    Now that you are back, it would be instructive to see your answers to them. Thanks!

  222. on 01 Nov 2011 at 11:42 pm 222.Lou (DFW) said …

    220.Megabyte said …

    “A very good answer but you will only continue to find anger and bitterness here. They are not interested in discussion, only arguing, belittlement and derision. This is not true of all atheist but of most here.

    As a dear friend of mine has recommended it is best for some just to give them a hug and put them down for a nap. Only those with a true inquiry are worth the time.”

    Megabyte, you fraud (sound familiar), enough of the condescending, holier-than-thou attitude. Show us some real evidence of your imaginary god. We know you can’t do that. So, go ahead, answer the questions or you “…are not interested in discussion, only arguing, belittlement and derision.”

    “Only those with a true inquiry are worth the time.”

    Oh, you already provided an excuse as to why you won’t (can’t). I fully expect that you will disappear again.

  223. on 02 Nov 2011 at 2:00 am 223.Suh said …

    Anonymous,

    Hiding out? I think you have some unfinished business over here on this thread.

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=2022

  224. on 07 Nov 2011 at 12:50 am 224.Alex said …

    Well DPK, looks like you’ve got me. Maybe I don’t have a truly logically proven argument aboutwhy God is in fact Lord of all things, but you know what I do have? I have two things. 1) The Bible. The most widely read book in the world. The book that is completely historically accurate and also morally good. It was written over a span of hundreds of years, yet all of the stories match up. I do not believe that this book would have been possible without thie influence of God. When I read through the Bible, I see God’s hand at work in every chapter and verse. Same thing when I look around at the world. I don’t see some spontaneous explosion, I see something that was fearfully and wonderfully made by God. Have you ever read the Bible? Maybe you should. 2) Faith. I’m not the only one in the world who has faith. I know you have faith. For example, when you go to sit in a chair, do you question its structural integrity? Do you test it by adding more and more weight to see if it will hold you? Do you just hover over the chair because you don’t want to take your chances? No! You sit down! You unknowingly have faith that the chair will hold your weight. That’s what I have with God. I know that, no matter what, God will always be there to carry my weight. Faith doesn’t always have a logical explaination, but that doesn’t mean that the faith is invalid. Besides, what if judgement day really does come and you had no faith, so you gat thrown into the lake of fire for all of eternity? So let me see, if you’re right, and there is no God, then there is no penalty for my belief in Him. But if I’m right, and God is real, then so is Heaven and Hell, and you would end up going to the latter, but I would go to the former. Hmmm… Which situation seems better? Food for thought.
    Sorry if I don’t respond too quickly. As a junior in high school, I have a lot of homework and very little time, so you’ll get your answers, this is important to me, just be patient.

    Oh, and RJ, I’m a GIRL. Not a boy, thank you very much.

  225. on 07 Nov 2011 at 12:58 am 225.Alex said …

    SRFJR, I am a Christian, but I believe that everyone, saved or not, is a child of God, but if they choose not to accept Christ as their personal Lord and savior, then they do not inheirit the Kingdom of God. If someone has real faith in God when they pray to Him, their prayers will be answered, but as you said, they may not like the answer.

  226. on 07 Nov 2011 at 1:17 am 226.Observer said …

    #224 Alex With reference to the Bible being the most read book in the world, or certainly I will grant you at least one of the most read books on the planet, what does that prove? McDonald’s is likely the largest restaurant in the world, and Coca-Cola is likely the most consumed drink. That should inform your perspective somewhat.

    There is still time to educate yourself. Get away from the grinding stupidity of Christianity and learn something.

  227. on 07 Nov 2011 at 1:30 am 227.Alex said …

    Observer,
    Maybe you should do the same with your atheism or whatever you claim to be. And what I was saying with the Bible being the most widely read book in the world is that its obviously important and it’s most likely got some merit to it. Coca-Cola and McDonald’s wouldn’t be so widely-spread if they didn’t taste so good.

  228. on 07 Nov 2011 at 2:41 am 228.Anonymous said …

    Alex, it would be better if you wrote in your own words. Much of what you have presented is boilerplate apologetic, not to mention cut and paste.

    So, the bible is widely read. Appeal to popularity. If everyone simply followed the masses we’d still believe that the world was flat. Leaches used to be popular for medicinal usage. What would you prefer, Alex? The once popular leach or modern medicine?

    How do you see your god’s hand in the bible? It was written by man. The bible is full or contradiction and nonsense. It’s you that has not read the bible, or you’ve had it read to you. Just start with Genesis 1 and 2. Read it for yourself, don’t let someone else “interpret” it for you. Do you even know who wrote the bible, when the bible was written, and how it got to be the canon that it is now?

    Clearly your education is lacking about the cosmos and the universe, that’s not a dig. Get a science education Alex and stop repeating your pastor’s nonsense about explosions. Learn to think and you’ll find the universe is more amazing than any story book.

    So you think your god made the world? What proof do you have? HOW did he make it? What process did he use? WHO created this creator? You have NO answers for any of that so, please, don’t kid yourself that you do. Do you really believe he created Adam from dirt? Really? Seriously? Come on! You are simply substituting fairy stories for your lack of knowledge. This is the god of the gaps, or argument from ignorance.

    Standard cut and paste nonsense about “faith”; please learn to think for yourself. You really need to understand the difference between faith, something that you hold to despite lack of evidence, and your knowledge that the chair will hold because its repeatable and testable and based on sound scientific principles. About the only thing repeatable about your god is that he doesn’t exist, nor does he answer prayers.

    By the way, you are right – there is nothing logical about faith yet you hold to it as if it’s a virtue. It’s not, it’s a weakness and it’s used as a way to control you. Since when is believing something that’s utterly and completely nonsense a good thing? Do you still have faith in Father Christmas? Would having faith there be a good thing? You’ll claim it’s different. It’s not.

    Oh no, not Pascal’s Wager – again. Does anyone have anything better? Look, man has worshiped over 10,000 gods and you xtians have some 38,000 different denominations of your religion. You present a false dichotomy. What if you are worshiping the wrong god? Maybe Zeus is the man after all? What if you are the wrong flavor of Christian? What if you are wrong? You’ve spent your entire life in servitude to a bronze age myth-man. You’ve wasted your life worrying about the non-existent hell. I’ve spent my life living the only life we have. You lose.

    Finally, Coca-cola and McDonald’s. Again with the popularity. You do know that they are engineered to cater to your weaknesses, to make you want them despite that fact that neither of those is good for you, right?

  229. on 07 Nov 2011 at 3:46 am 229.Alex said …

    #228 Anonymous,
    Hi. Yeah. I did not repeat anyone’s words in any of my responses. I’m sorry that that is just how I feel, but please do no t accuse me of plagiarism. Have you studied the Bible in depth, then? Have you gone back to the Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic versions that it was originally written in? If not, I don’t think you have the right to call it nonsense or contradictional. Oh, and I have studied the Big Bang and I know that it was more than just an explosion, but I really don’t feel like going into the mechanics of it in depth, so I simply say explosions. God made the world by calling it into existence. And if God really is God, then he would have no problem making Adam from dirt or Eve from his rib. I do in fact think for myself. I’m not a cookie cutter Christian. I don’t necessarily agree with everything my pastor or church believes. And you know what, I don’t care if you think I might be wrong or if anybody else thinks that i might be wrong about God and Jesus or anything else, because all that matters to me is that God gets all of the glory. I love being God’s servant, cause let me tell you, it is WAY better than being a servant to the world.
    So, you can try to prove that God isn’t real all you want, but it won’t sway my faith.

  230. on 07 Nov 2011 at 4:31 am 230.Anonymous said …

    Alex, plagiarism is a close imitation, it’s doesn’t have to be word for word. You’re repeating common phrases but, OK, perhaps it wasn’t intentional and my point was more along the line that you’re simply trotting out the party line.

    None of what you’ve written is original. The chair analogy, go search for it; the comments on Hebrew, Greek, yep standard fare; Pascal’s Wager, Christianity 101; bible being historically accurate, twaddle and all over the internet; seeing god’s hand, basic Sunday school fare; and so on.

    I notice you avoided all the hard questions. Still no answer on how this god called the world into existence. He just did isn’t an answer. Circular logic abounds in the “if god is god then he can… statement”. That might work in church, but not in the real world.

    And you know what, I don’t care if you think I might be wrong or if anybody else thinks that i might be wrong about God and Jesus or anything else, because all that matters to me is that God gets all of the glory. I love being God’s servant, cause let me tell you, it is WAY better than being a servant to the world.”

    So, in other words, you don’t want to think you just want to believe. Agreed, many people find it easier not to think. Too bad that you’re throwing away your life on the word on a bunch of bronze age goat herders. Too bad.

    Finally, you end with a classic Christian logical fallacy. You see, no-one needs to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns, or disprove that you are an alien from Mars. None of those things are real, hence we don’t need to disprove them. Likewise, your god doesn’t exist and it’s up to you to prove that he does. You can’t prove the existence of this god, hence your retreat to faith.

  231. on 07 Nov 2011 at 11:17 am 231.RJ said …

    Regarding “Alex”

    Guys, I have a sneaking suspicion you’re being played. She says she’s a highschool student, but her writing reads more like an adult trying to sound like a highschool student. Her writing style is just way too inconsistent. Plus she’s saying all the same things in the same way that are known to get you guys going. It’s all too cliche.

    Although I fell for it too at first, after following her last few posts I’m not buying it anymore. The final tip-off was her indicating she’s “gone back to the Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic versions” of scripture. That requires a certain level of intellect that is nowhere present in the way she articulates her posts.

    Nuh-uh. Not buying it.

  232. on 07 Nov 2011 at 12:10 pm 232.Observer said …

    Regarding Alex the reference to classical “Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic” gets my bet as just aping something she heard in church or saw on Jayzuzz TV. The cretins make reference to these languages to give themselves some credibility. That she doesn’t quite get the distinction between Arabic and Aramaic supports my argument. I confess listening to xtian idiots on the radio sometimes, Comedy Central is only on cable, and some of these clowns will pull out a Greek word and build some sort of tortured story/twisted logic around it. The hoi polloi are easily impressed. It is hilarious.

  233. on 07 Nov 2011 at 1:32 pm 233.Anonymous said …

    re 232, yep – it really doesn’t matter if you read the bible in Dutch, Swahili, green or red ink. It’s still primitive superstition unsupported by facts.

  234. on 07 Nov 2011 at 2:14 pm 234.DPK said …

    Alex, to answer your question, yes, I HAVE read the bible. The whole thing, not just the parts that were spoon fed to me in church. It was one of the defining moments in my realization that it was all a bunch of fairy tales. I have not read the bible in Hebrew, Greek or Arabic… have you? Seriously, as a junior in high school you speak Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic? Or did you just hear that from some silver haired preacher as an excuse as to why the bible is full of such contradictions and atrocities?
    It is said that at such a young age you have decided to abandon reason in favor of some mindless dogmatic brainwashing. Think about it, if your god was real, why would it take faith, which as Mark Twain said, is “believing in stuff you know ain’t true”, to believe it. Why do you have to suspend the ability to reason, which your god supposedly GAVE YOU above all other animals, in order to rationalize his very existence.
    Open your mind and think about what you are really saying when you say that “all you care about is that “god gets all the glory”. What you are really saying is you don’t care about what is real or what is true, you only care about maintaining your own delusion at any cost. And why is that? Because someone told you to? To avoid some eternal punishment? To make you feel warm and fuzzy inside? To avoid disappointing your parents? Because you have been taught to fear? Think about what you believe about the nature of your infinitely wise and loving god and ask yourself if sending people to eternal torment in hell for the crime of not worshiping him is in keeping with the nature of a supreme being. That would be akin to me beating my dog to death with a sledge hammer (over and over and over again, if that was possible) for the crime of not coming when I called her. What would you think of a master who did that?
    Now ask yourself WHO WOULD benefit from the ability to keep people in line, filling the church pews and collection plates by fostering such a fear?
    The answers you pretend to seek are actually all around you if you simply open your eyes and look at everything you have been spoon fed with an open mind and a healthy skepticism.

  235. on 07 Nov 2011 at 10:29 pm 235.Cleo said …

    Alex

    You are on a blog. Ignore the plagiarism accusations. No idea on this blog is original. The apologetics of 100 years ago are still as solid as the apologetics of today. They have never been disproven anymore than God’s Word has been disproven.

    Its all good. I like to see what the latest claims are by the deniers. They get more creative but they still have nothing of substance.

  236. on 07 Nov 2011 at 11:20 pm 236.Truth said …

    Let mental culture go on advancing, let the natural sciences progress in ever greater extent and depth, and the human mind widen itself as much as it desires, beyond the elevation and moral culture of Christianity, as it shines forth in the gospels, it will not go.

    Goethe

  237. on 08 Nov 2011 at 1:49 am 237.Alex said …

    Thank you Cleo and Truth. As I said before, I’m only in the eleventh grade and I’m not trying to pretend I know all of the answers to Christianity. And I really AM in the eleventh grade (RJ). No, I don’t speak Greek, Hebrew, or Arabic (although I actually meant Aramaic, and not just after reading Observer’s post, not that you would believe me on that anyway), although I do know some people who have studied the Bible in all of those languages, but you know what guys? This is what I believe. I was just compelled to write on this blog because it’s just a whole bunch of people slamming Christianity because they have nothing better to do in their awesome lives free from any type of bondage to a greater being. It just makes me kinda sad to hear all of these people who have rejected God and are trying to lead others away from Him. I wasn’t trying to lead you guys to believe that I had studied the Bible in foreign languages, I was simply asking if you had. Sorry my writing is not up to par with your expectations, Observer. After writing so many essays in a very organized manner, it’s nice to let my thoughts just flow out from time to time.
    But seriously guys, this is really cutting into my homework time (cause i’m in HIGHSCHOOL with two AP classes).
    Oh, and to whoever asked me who created God: who created your speck of dust that expanded into the universe? Just wondering.

  238. on 08 Nov 2011 at 1:56 am 238.Alex said …

    Observer,
    Please don’t group all Christians into the category of idiots. Although I do admit that some are, I know that they are not all idiots. That would be like calling all nonbelievers idiots. Not nice. And “xtians?” Now that’s just childish.

  239. on 08 Nov 2011 at 2:46 am 239.Truth said …

    Alex

    My middle child, my daughter, is a jr in HS. Don’t sell yourself short. Your story is the strongest testimony you will ever offer another about God and His work. Desiring to learn the original languages is also a notable goal.

    Be warned, coming here will get you called all sorts of nasty names. No, not all atheist are nasty, but most I have read here are pretty bad. Witnessing it for yourself, learning there tactics and arguments is a good move for a HS student. All three of my kids I make sure are prepared for these tactics before college.

    Serve Him well.

  240. on 08 Nov 2011 at 2:48 am 240.Anonymous said …

    Alex, Alex, Alex, I’ve studied the bible in English and one of those ancient languages. I could read it to you in others if you’d like. Not that it would help, it’s still nonsense. The language isn’t the issue, the content is.

    Well, ignoring your attempt at a strawman for the “spec of dust” idiocy, odd for someone who claims to have “studied” as you said ealier. The answer you are searching for is that why would it be a who? You’re the one with the anthropomorphic deity.

    Why can you not understand this? You’re the one making the claim. You provide the evidence. Stand up for your beliefs. Show it’s not just in your head. Show us.

    Also, what’s with the persecution complex? Is that what they teach you in RE? People here are pointing out that ALL religion is nonsense, but Xtianity does provide a treasure trove of nonsense to highlight.

    The truth is that your belief in god is just a self-reinforcing delusion.

    If you need to leave your god behind to learn how the world works, that’s you simply maturing into reality and out of fairy-story land. You found out that Santa Clause was imaginary, same for the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Letting go of your indoctrination with gods is next.

    We’re still waiting on you for your proof of your imaginary god, but it’s seems you’ve got nothing, not even an argument.

  241. on 08 Nov 2011 at 3:23 am 241.Alex said …

    Truth,
    What a coincedence! I am also a middle child of three! Sorry, just had to point that out. Thank you so much for the support. I guess being couped up in private Christian schools all of my life has sheltered me from the reality of just how mean nonbelievers can be about refuting the Word. I never knew that they cared so much about something that they really wouldn’t care about at all if their “proof” of where the universe originated was completely sound. I am glad that I now see what their arguments and tactics are so that I can prepare before going to college. Good luck in preparing your children for this big, mean world.
    God Bless

  242. on 08 Nov 2011 at 4:14 am 242.Observer said …

    #241 Alex- Assuming you are not lying, the good news is you are still young, and will soon be out of your school. The bad news is you may have a very difficult time gaining admission to a good university. Be sure to prepare well for your SATs, it is likely your only hope. Given that you are on this site, you have the opportunity to expose yourself to a higher level of integrity than to what you are accustomed. Hit Dawkin’s website, look at some of his interviews with other greats. Learn some science (not to be confused with technology).

    And if only there were a “God” so God Damn the people who put bright children in private xtian (Christian) schools would actually have some meaning.

  243. on 08 Nov 2011 at 4:55 am 243.Alex said …

    Observer,
    I do not object to learning everything I can before heading off to college, so thank you for your input. My high school really isn’t that bad, though. It is a college preperatory school and I know that students who come here do, in fact, get accepted to good colleges and universities. Every year after the seniors have found out where they are going to college, they post all of the colleges that the seniors have been accepted to up on a board. There are many extremely good colleges and universities that get posted, such as Stanford, USC, UCLA, Duke, Yale, Cornell, UC Berkeley, UC Irvine, and even Harvard. And trust me, all I have been doing is preparing for the SATs. Oh, and also, I am taking biology right now, and even though it is a Christian school, we are still taugh with evolutionary views. We may or may not necessarily belive them, but we still have the chance to at least understand what we are rejecting or accepting as the truth. So, they do not shelter us from the secular belief system, rather, they expose us to it and give us a choice.

  244. on 08 Nov 2011 at 5:39 am 244.Anonymous said …

    alex@234 Guys, he’s a troll

  245. on 08 Nov 2011 at 5:48 am 245.Alex said …

    Who’s a troll?

  246. on 08 Nov 2011 at 4:51 pm 246.DPK said …

    Alex… as I said before, I HAVE read the bible, and I was in fact where you are… in Christian school being spoon fed christian myths and idealogy.

    Do yourself a favor… review this small section of this website:
    http://godisimaginary.com/i5.htm
    Then review your bible studies with an open mind.
    Would the all loving supreme being really say and condone such things? In ANY language?
    Now, your learned bible professors that have studied the bible will have endless “excuses”. Many of them are actually laughable, all of them are rather convoluted. Ask yourself if the perfect word of a perfect being would require someone to “explain away” all the problems, or would it be simple, pure, and well, perfect?
    Do not mistake the fact that many on these blogs ridicule and point out the absurdities of faith as hatred. It is not. It is simply exasperation. “There are none so blind as those who will not see.” This statement fits perfectly with the backward and primitive notion that faith, believing something without evidence or good reason, is somehow a virtue. It is not. Reason has been the foundation of ALL of mankind’s progress throughout history. Dogmatic religious faith has been the ball and chain that humans have dragged tediously along the path to progress.

  247. on 09 Nov 2011 at 12:43 am 247.Horatiio said …

    Alex

    Let me save you from the useless and boring link DPK provided. The argument is this.

    I don’t understand the Bible therefore God does not exist. Since you an obviously bright 11th grader, I don’t need to explain the fallacious reasoning used by the author.

    Of course an atheist would not understand the Bible. The Bible made this claim thousands of years ago (I Cor 1:18, Ps 14:1). Sadly, they don’t even realize how often they prove the Bible right. I provide a link to help explain their thinking.

    http://www.christinyou.net/pages/atheism.html

  248. on 10 Nov 2011 at 6:56 am 248.Alex said …

    DPK,
    I have already been to that page, actually. In fact, that whole website was what lead me to this blog and compelled me to defend my faith. Do you understand that once, we were all accountable for our own sin until God sent Christ to die for us? That is why the Old Testament is so harsh and different from the New Testament. And no, I was not “spoon-fed” that “excuse.” It makes sense. What happens when we break the rules in our society? We are punished. What happens when we break God’s rules? We are punished. That’s where Jesus comes in. He took the blame for what we’ve done so that we won’t have to be punished. All that’s necessary to escape punishment is to accept Jesus as the one who will take the blame. That’s it. Nothing more required. No, you don’t have to read the Bible everyday or go to Church every Sunday or talk to all of your friends about how much you love God. You just have to accept Jesus into your heart.
    And thanks for the link, Horatiio.

  249. on 10 Nov 2011 at 11:57 am 249.Anonymous said …

    What happens when we break the rules in our society? We are punished. What happens when we break God’s rules? We are punished. That’s where Jesus comes in. He took the blame for what we’ve done so that we won’t have to be punished.

    God sacrificed himself to himself to atone to himself for the sins of the imperfect people he created with the foreknowledge of what they would do.

    Yeah, makes perfect sense when told to a to a bunch of uneducated nomadic goat-herders. Nowadays, not so much.

    Enough already with the stories. Where’s the proof?

  250. on 10 Nov 2011 at 1:55 pm 250.Lou (DFW) said …

    248.Alex said …

    “You just have to accept Jesus into your heart.”

    That is nothing but nonsensical, irrational, childish, babbling. There is no Jesus to “accept,” there is no “heart” into which to “accept” him.

    On the other, you have a literal brain with at least a modicum of intelligence. Use it to accept the FACT that there is no supernatural being to “accept” into your figurative “heart.”

  251. on 10 Nov 2011 at 2:05 pm 251.MrQ said …

    248.Alex said …

    You just have to accept Jesus into your heart.

    I thought that was Tinkerbell’s schtick; if you don’t believe in her she dies.
    Alex, if you have the faith, good on you. If you need proof to back the faith, good luck.

  252. on 10 Nov 2011 at 2:07 pm 252.DPK said …

    Alex, I understand the fable. Now ask yourself what sense that makes in the context of a supreme being. What is the purpose of punishment in society for “breaking the rules”? It is supposed to do 2 things. Protect other members of society from harm from someone who does not care about their well being, and rehabilitate the offender so the crime is not committed again. (Granted, our system of punishment is a miserable failure, but that;s the intention, none the less).
    Now ask yourself what would happen if when you committed a crime if you could designate someone else to take the responsibility and punishment for you? Does that make sense? What if your dad said, “every time you break a house rule I’m going to beat your brother.” Or even more accurately, “Alex, I killed your brother to atone for anything bad you might do. This way, he took the punishment for you because we love you.”
    You’d think your father had lost it, no?
    Now step it up a notch. The “father” you are talking of is a perfect, all powerful, all knowing, all loving creature. HE sets the rules. WHY would such a being REQIRE a human sacrifice as “payment” for sins? Especially sins that he created people with the full knowledge that they would commit because they are incapable of living up to his expectations? Why would he do this?
    Does this sound more like a myth dreamed up by primitive people for whom “sacrifices” were a way of life, or the perfect plan of a perfect being?
    You need to think critically about the nonsense you regurgitate. You don’t think you have been indoctrinated, but you have. Think about the meaning of the words you are saying. A whipping boy? The idea that you can off load your crimes to a surrogate is morally bankrupt. The idea that a supreme being demands blood sacrifice is laughable. The idea that the divine creator requires worship and love from the likes of you and me is absurd. The concept that a god would be interested in, and wish to monitor and control things like who you sleep with, what you eat and when, what you do on Sunday, if you’re respectful to your parents, even the idea that he is offended by your thoughts….. really?? That’s what you really believe?
    And ok if you do. Just realize that many people have grown way past such silly myths and recognize them for what they are. Legends and fable that have no more to do with reality that any other god legends that people have invented and discarded over the ages.

  253. on 10 Nov 2011 at 2:49 pm 253.RJ said …

    RE: #252

    DPK—brilliantly put! And that kind of loopy logic permeates through all the OT stories. You would have to be just plain unable to reason or even willfully forfeit that ability to get past all that idiocy. And of course really, really want to believe it enough.

    I’ll even go so far as to say that it’s not the supernatural aspects of the bible stories that throws me off. It’s logical that if there was a god, he’d be supernatural and have the ability to perform supernatural feats. The central problem for me is how illogical and nonsensical the stories are. And as you pointed out, god’s nature, as presented in the bible, is not consistent with that of a supreme, perfect being. He’s not even consistent with himself, as contradictions and inconsistencies abound throughout scripture. The bible is far, far from perfect to be the product of a perfect being. I don’t think too many christians have actually stopped to think about just what “perfect” means.

    I would likely be more open to the idea of god otherwise.

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