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Christianity Johnson on 19 Sep 2008 03:10 am

Should conservatives be removed from positions of authority?

Have you ever wondered where religion comes from? This article discusses one possible explanation:

Why Do We Believe Impossible Things?

According to the article:

Wolpert argues that our wide range of beliefs, some of which are clearly false, grew out of a uniquely human trait. Alone in the animal world, humans understand cause and effect, and that, he says, led ultimately to the invention of tools, the rapid rise of sophisticated technology, and of course, beliefs. Even the earliest humans understood that many events that shaped their lives resulted from specific causes. Therefore, there must be a cause behind every event.

Searching for that cause, Wolpert says, led to the rise of religion because surely there must be some purpose behind all this, some ultimate cause at work in the universe.

The article leaves one thing unresolved. It is fairly easy to understand why children believe in impossible things. But what about adults? It is obvious, for example, that the belief in a prayer-answering, Bible-writing “God” is ridiculous (see GodIsImaginary.com for details). Yet Christians cling to their beliefs with tenacity, in the face of all kinds of evidence proving their beliefs to be nonsense. Why does this happen?

This article offers an explanation:

The Power of Political Misinformation

According to the article:

Political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler provided two groups of volunteers with the Bush administration’s prewar claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. One group was given a refutation — the comprehensive 2004 Duelfer report that concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the United States invaded in 2003. Thirty-four percent of conservatives told only about the Bush administration’s claims thought Iraq had hidden or destroyed its weapons before the U.S. invasion, but 64 percent of conservatives who heard both claim and refutation thought that Iraq really did have the weapons. The refutation, in other words, made the misinformation worse.

A similar “backfire effect” also influenced conservatives told about Bush administration assertions that tax cuts increase federal revenue. One group was offered a refutation by prominent economists that included current and former Bush administration officials. About 35 percent of conservatives told about the Bush claim believed it; 67 percent of those provided with both assertion and refutation believed that tax cuts increase revenue.

In a paper approaching publication, Nyhan, a PhD student at Duke University, and Reifler, at Georgia State University, suggest that Republicans might be especially prone to the backfire effect because conservatives may have more rigid views than liberals: Upon hearing a refutation, conservatives might “argue back” against the refutation in their minds, thereby strengthening their belief in the misinformation. Nyhan and Reifler did not see the same “backfire effect” when liberals were given misinformation and a refutation about the Bush administration’s stance on stem cell research.

What this article suggests is that many conservatives cannot think or reason clearly. They cannot filter fact from fiction. In fact, they appear to prefer fiction. And the “overlap” between conservatives and Christians is high. This would imply that many Christians cling to their beliefs, despite all the evidence that their beliefs are ridiculous, because their brains are not working correctly.

In light of these discoveries, a controversial but appropriate question would be this: should people who cannot filter fact from fiction be allowed to serve in positions of responsibility in our society? Isn’t this a form of mental illness that we are seeing in this study? This section is particularly damning:

“Thirty-four percent of conservatives told only about the Bush administration’s claims thought Iraq had hidden or destroyed its weapons before the U.S. invasion, but 64 percent of conservatives who heard both claim and refutation thought that Iraq really did have the weapons. The refutation, in other words, made the misinformation worse.”

In other words, when given facts, many conservatives refuse to accept them and go with the fiction instead. It certainly sounds like a form of mental illness.

26 Responses to “Should conservatives be removed from positions of authority?”

  1. on 19 Sep 2008 at 8:13 pm 1.SteveK said …

    MEMO
    ———
    To: Johnson
    From: Irony Department

    Please follow this link to increase your daily intake of irony to the recommended levels. It should serve to cure you of your current ailment.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html

    ————
    In his 1983 book “The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener,” skeptic and science writer Martin Gardner cited the decline of traditional religious belief among the better educated as one of the causes for an increase in pseudoscience, cults and superstition. He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.

    ……………
    We can’t even count on self-described atheists to be strict rationalists. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life’s monumental “U.S. Religious Landscape Survey” that was issued in June, 21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force. Ten percent of atheists pray at least weekly and 12% believe in heaven.

    ……………
    The night before his performance on Conan O’Brien, Mr. Maher told David Letterman — a quintuple bypass survivor — to stop taking the pills that his doctor had prescribed for him. He proudly stated that he didn’t accept Western medicine. On his HBO show in 2005, Mr. Maher said: “I don’t believe in vaccination. . . . Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory.” He has told CNN’s Larry King that he won’t take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn’t even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.

    …………….
    END MEMO
    …………….

  2. on 20 Sep 2008 at 12:08 am 2.PSR said …

    This post explains the McCain campaign strategy:

    Step 1 – Lie to your constituents
    Step 2 – Let news media or opponent refute your lies
    Step 3 – Constituents believe lies even more

  3. on 20 Sep 2008 at 7:04 am 3.anonymous said …

    Maher isn’t an atheist, he’s a satirist.

  4. on 21 Sep 2008 at 7:21 pm 4.P-Dunn said …

    I wonder what Christopher Hitchens, a conservative, would have to say about this.

    http://brainisignorant.blogspot.com – Word for Word response to WWGHA and GodIsImaginary.

    ~Patrick

  5. on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:35 am 5.PSR said …

    “I wonder what Christopher Hitchens, a conservative, would have to say about this.”

    You would assume that he would want to learn more. It is a very interesting study if the results are repeatable.

  6. on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:35 am 6.SteveK said …

    Is that the name of the guy who runs this website, Marshall Brain? I’m guessing it’s a pseudonym. Is Johnson the equivalent of what the Brain does or is Johnson some other part of the body?

  7. on 22 Sep 2008 at 9:18 am 7.Anointed said …

    “Why do we believe impossible things?”

    I think this question should be reversed to: “Why don’t we believe impossible things”.

    We all know the real case is that humans beings do not believe things that have no proof so I think it’s wrong to ask why they believe impossible things because the majority don’t!

    And for us who do…why not?

    It is simply not fair to discourage other people from believing in the impossible just because you don’t. I do not believe in living a limited life. If my doctor tells me I have Cancer and have three months to live, I will simply thank him for his effort and tell him God has the last report on my health and refuse to accept the news if I BELIEVE I WILL BE HEALED. Scientifically it is crazy but the Bible says ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR HIM WHO BELIEVES…BELIEVES…BELIEVES…BELIEVES…

    Even if we believe and it does not happen…what harm is there in daring to think the impossible?

  8. on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:50 pm 8.VeridicusX said …

    @Anointed #7

    > It is simply not fair to discourage other people from believing in the impossible just because you don’t. I do not believe in living a limited life…

    Me, me, me. It’s all about me isn’t it? No concern for the consequences.

    > Even if we believe and it does not happen … what harm is there in daring to think the impossible?

    Some of us value honesty and practice personal integrity. Some of us love the truth and practice mental hygiene, i.e. reject lies.

    Faith costs lives. Of course, you are free to think and say what you want, but know this, it is unethical to promulgate beliefs which are meritless and baseless. It’s worse than closing your eyes and putting earplugs in and then telling children that it’s safe to cross the road.

    When you make unqualified assertions *without valid evidence* YOU ARE LYING.

    Someone somewhere may believe your lies and act on them:
    http://www.startribune.com/local/27784834.html?elr=KArks:DCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

  9. on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:05 pm 9.VeridicusX said …

    @SteveK #1

    > He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.

    Christianity … the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father, (he became a zombie because he had to sacrifice himself to himself to stop himself killing everyone else), can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood, (some vampirism going on there as well), and telepathically tell him you accept him as your lord and master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
    –Anonymous. (Paraphrased).

    Nope, nothing paranormal there at all.

    > … 21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force. Ten percent of atheists pray at least weekly and 12% believe in heaven

    Could it be that some atheists were pretending to be suffering from a religious mental defect? Or perhaps it really was some theists. Maybe they thought that the question was, “Are you a theist?”.

    > Mr. Maher said: “I don’t believe in vaccination. . . . Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory.” He has told CNN’s Larry King that he won’t take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn’t even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.

    Perhaps his brain has been short-circuited by religion?

    Irony indeed.

  10. on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:00 pm 10.SteveK said …

    Verid,
    Your mental contortions are quite impressive. Believe what you must.

  11. on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:06 pm 11.SteveK said …

    “When you make unqualified assertions *without valid evidence* YOU ARE LYING.”

    See the evidence in the report referenced in #1 and see the assertions in #9. I leave it to the reader to form their own conclusion.

  12. on 22 Sep 2008 at 6:37 pm 12.VeridicusX said …

    The reader might want to acquaint him or herself with the difference between satire and assertion. This could save many years of “faith” and thousands of dollars in tithes.

  13. on 23 Sep 2008 at 12:08 am 13.lil tom said …

    steveK,

    a reader’s response:

    the “evidence” of your first post is funny (for starters because you claim that belief in the supernatural is an antedote to pseudoscience! also, an atheist who believes in a heaven or a god is NOT AN ATHEIST!) and so deserving of a comical response.

    so I’d conclude that #9 is a pretty killer response to the evidence. well done!

  14. on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:09 am 14.Anointed said …

    VeridicusX,

    “Some of us value honesty and practice personal integrity. Some of us love the truth and practice mental hygiene, i.e. reject lies.”

    Tell me, what is truth, Veridicus? do you know what truth is first of all?

    Living without God is not truth…it is denial.Denying that there is a creator, denying that he died for your sins, denying his entire existence and choosing to be your own gods. That is not valuing honesty and truth…it is called denial.

    I did not say people should reject reality, I said they should be left to believe that they can overcome any difficulty they may face in life and that is not “closing your eyes and putting earplugs in and then telling children that it’s safe to cross the road.”,

    You really love taking things out of proportion to make it sound silly but that’s not what I meant and you know it.

    “Faith costs lives”

    Yes it costs lives because Christians are being killed by non-believers in some countries because of what they believe in.

    And when I mean “faith” I don’t mean literally jumping from a bridge and expect the angels to catch you half way because I get the feeling that’s what you mean.

    “it is unethical to promulgate beliefs which are meritless and baseless.”

    Yes it is unethical to the human nature…not to God.

  15. on 23 Sep 2008 at 9:56 am 15.VeridicusX said …

    @Anointed #14

    Thanks for your response. I will point out that I am addressing certain ideas, not attacking anyone, and certainly not attacking you.

    > Tell me, what is truth, Veridicus? do you know what truth is first of all?

    Truth is that which conforms to the facts. Truth is that which conforms to actuality and reality.
    This means that there is a “principle of coherence”. This is, the principle that truth is self-consistent.
    From this we can conclude that any information that is incoherent, (that is, self-contradictory), and/or any information that contradicts verified or verifiable facts, (that is, inconsistent), is false.

    To summarize. Any statement that contradicts itself and/or the validated evidence is false.

    Reason and logic are expressions of the self-consistency of reality.
    Reason, logic and applied mathematics are analogues of reality, describing the relationship of truth or reality to itself.

    It is then simply a matter of checking any assertion against itself and against the evidence. If it is incoherent or inconsistent – that is, if it violates the principle of coherence, it is false.

    You might want to try this with the five resurrection accounts:
    http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=stone

    You might want to try this with Leviticus 11:20-23 and compare it with this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwTehiNCXzA

    You may want to consider how sacrificing an innocent person can ever be justice. If you kill an innocent person for someone else’s crime you now have two crimes. If you allow yourself to be killed for someone else’s crime you have just partaken of injustice.

    And so on for thousands more examples both inside and outside of the Bible.

    > Living without God is not truth…it is denial.Denying that there is a creator, denying that he died for your sins, denying his entire existence and choosing to be your own gods. That is not valuing honesty and truth…it is called denial.

    Remember what I said about baseless and meritless assertions? A creator “God” is itself an incoherent conjecture.
    If something created reality, then that something is unreal! Which is to say, a theistic creator “God” is impossible.

    To assert things without valid evidence is dishonesty.

    > … choosing to be your own gods.

    Your assertion here is false, (as is usual with theists).

    God – A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part or all of nature or reality.
    god – a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; “he was a god among men”
    god – One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed

    I don’t worship, idealize or follow anyone. I, like many others who are concerned with reality, only subject my mind to evidence, reason and compassion.

    > …it is called denial.

    It’s called honesty. People of integrity don’t believe (false) things because of fears and wishful thinking. People of integrity increasingly don’t voluntarily believe anything at all.

    If you present valid evidence based on facts and which do not contradict reality, I will assign a truth value to it.
    I won’t believe it though. Faith is only required in the absence of valid evidence. [Heb 11, Rom 8:24].

    As I’ve said elsewhere, some people think that we must go through life believing things as if life is some sort of “Gullible’s Travels”.

    >> I did not say people should reject reality, I said they should be left to believe that they can overcome any difficulty they may face in life and that is not “closing your eyes and putting earplugs in and then telling children that it’s safe to cross the road.”

    > You really love taking things out of proportion to make it sound silly but that’s not what I meant and you know it.

    It is in fact what you’ve just said again, it’s just that you don’t know it.
    We *cannot* overcome any difficulty we may face in life. That is part of reality. The research shows that positive thinking has no lasting effect on the course of cancer.
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=cancer+%22positive+thinking%22+research+%22no+effect%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

    >> “it is unethical to promulgate beliefs which are meritless and baseless.”

    > Yes it is unethical to the human nature…not to God.

    Given that the theists’ god is provably non-existent one is only left with immorality.

  16. on 24 Sep 2008 at 10:24 am 16.Anointed said …

    Veridicus, thanks for the short-cut (link)

    “We *cannot* overcome any difficulty we may face in life. That is part of reality. The research shows that positive thinking has no lasting effect on the course of cancer.”

    Oh yes we “can”, we can overcome our difficulties (but in Jesus only) and since you do not believe in him, I’m not surprised that you accept trouble as it comes with no objections. Of course trouble will overcome you…because you do not have back-up (Jesus) so what do you expect? This life was meant to be travelled through with God, but if you kick him to the curb and deny his existence, of course you will never overcome your trouble but trouble will overcome you.When researchers look into these things, they conclude matters based on their ‘human understanding’.

    And I’ve noticed that time and time again you are coming up with this ‘proof, evidence and facts’ argument. Honey, as crazy as this may sound, I believe and know that I know that I know that God exists. It’s an assurance that only the Holy Spirit can give you within your heart and not Science.That’s why you are tiring yourself by repeatedly asking for evidence of God because the evidence is withing the heart.

    You still do not get it that life here on Earth is not all there is. Our human understanding is limited to certain things only and once something operates outside of this understanding, it is only a human reaction not to understand it and as a result, easily deny it’s existence.This means that you’re simply operating in your circle of understanding and would not accept anything that operates outside it.

    It’s the same thing as saying there is no other planet besides this one we live in simply because you cannot see all the other distant planets and is easy to think the planet Earth is all there is (now don’t get excited, I’m only using this as an example. I know that it has been proven and shown that other planets exist). Now if Science had not discovered those other planets, would you believe me if I had said there are also other planets besides our Earth that are even far bigger than this one? Just because they have not been discovered or you can’t see them, does not mean they’re not there. Don’t get confused, I’m not contradicting myself here. My argument is focusing on the human mind and how it works.

    I do not blame you for not understanding how God operates because it’s a human, natural reaction to reject something that does not fall under your understanding. The more people try to understand God, the more confused they get. This is because he is God and does not operate under the laws and rules of the things he created himself. He is too big for our understanding.That’s why humans do not understand him simply because he does not prove himself in the way we want him to (under our rules and laws of nature or what we know is logic sense). Of course everything else falls under the rules of nature because it’s part of nature. The Bible itself says this is all about faith. What is faith?

    “Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things unseen,”

    I know how confused you must be right now and this is because you are operating with your human understanding. There are just some things you cannot see but deep down in your heart, you know they are there.It’s like taking an umbrella on a blue sky and saying it’s going to rain. There is no evidence of rain but something in your heart is giving you the feeling that it will rain soon.It’s the same with God. You cannot see him but the assurance deep in your heart is there and this can only happen through the Holy Spirit.

    You simply cannot acknowledge God without the Holy Spirit placing that assurance in your heart. People are using the tools of science to try and figure out who God is God and they will never.What we need to understand is…we are the creation and he is the creator because trying to understand how he works is like chasing after the wind.

    All you need to know right now is that he died for your sins on the cross 2000 years ago and he has given us his word to live by (which is all that matters).Ignoring his word and looking for answers elsewhere will only confuse you more. You also cannot understand the Bible without revelation from the Holy Spirit (which you can only have once you’re born again) and a lot of people, because they do not understand it have put it aside.

  17. on 24 Sep 2008 at 5:09 pm 17.VeridicusX said …

    @Anointed #16

    Thanks for your response.

    To clarify …

    >> We *cannot* overcome any difficulty we may face in life. That is part of reality. The research shows that positive thinking has no lasting effect on the course of cancer.

    Would be clearer as …

    We *cannot* overcome ABSOLUTELY any difficulty we may face in life. That is part of reality. The research shows that positive thinking has no lasting effect on the course of cancer.

    I am not advocating fatalism.

    ***

    Although I’m pleased that you’re concerned with my wellbeing and happiness, you still don’t get the bit about honesty and integrity do you? Fantasy and reality is all the same to you, isn’t it?

    You are trying to use your version of “reason” and “rationality” to tell me to abandon reason and rationality.

    The fact that you have told me that you have no reliance on truth and reality is all I need to know. It means that whatever you say has low reliability.

    > “Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things unseen,”

    Is a lie. Faith is not evidence. Evidence is evidence. Faith is belief despite the evidence.

    I’m sorry, (not for what I’m saying, but for your feelings), but your hope that I’m mentally unstable is dashed, I’m firmly rooted in reality and your appeal to ghouls, ghosts and gods is just so much meritless, faith-based nonsense.

  18. on 24 Sep 2008 at 8:07 pm 18.lil tom said …

    anointed, do you not see how foolish your patronizing attitude and your foolish preaching looks here in a board of people who have overcome the very absurdities you are trying to push here?

    you are wasting your breath if you think you will convert anyone here. I can only imagine that you are here because you question your own faith (which is again and again demonstrated in your need to tell others how holy you are, and how they are in big trouble with the lord)…

    >Now if Science had not discovered those other planets, would you believe me if I had said there are also other planets besides our Earth that are even far bigger than this one? Just because they have not been discovered or you can’t see them, does not mean they’re not there. Don’t get confused, I’m not contradicting myself here. My argument is focusing on the human mind and how it works.

    you are confused. you use a scientific example of something we have discovered via science, yet you claim again and again that god can only be known in unscientific ways. your confused example is totally pointless.

    >I know how confused you must be right now and this is because you are operating with your human understanding.

    not confused at all. you are transparent as can be. you on the other hand are certainly not using human understanding!
    that always cracks me up. believers always say that god can not be understood. any idea of him is anthropomorphic. his will is beyond our human understanding. but then in the next breath they’ll gladly condemn non-believers or tell us what god thinks about us. they love to have it both ways. to fear god and to be his spokesperson. and then I wonder: why would god choose such incompetents to be his mouthpiece? why are the majority of people who I admire and respect non-believers? why are the pious so often hypocritical and obnoxious?

    (I normally try to keep comments fairly respectful, but your comments are extremely dishonest and rude, so I do not feel it is out of bounds to be a bit blunt with you… you clearly do not wish to have an honest and intelligent discussion.)

  19. on 25 Sep 2008 at 10:42 am 19.VeridicusX said …

    Anointed,

    This is how you proved the non-existence of your god …

    > The more people try to understand God, the more confused they get. This is because he is God and does not operate under the laws and rules of the things he created himself.

    god is immortal.
    god is omnipotent.
    god is not subject to logic.

    Therefore, god can create pepper sauce that is too hot for him to eat and kill himself with it.

  20. on 25 Sep 2008 at 1:08 pm 20.Anointed said …

    What’s the matter, Lil Tom? Why are you being so emotional? Have I angered you so much that you say I don’t deserve to be spoken to with respect? Is it because I said I’ll pray for you or what?

    Being called a fool in the name of God is part of the package of serving Him and I’ll take it as it comes. Jesus and the disciple’s work here on earth did not go smooth either so why should mine be when the Bible clearly tells us it won’t be easy for all of us.

    ” you are wasting your breath if you think you will convert anyone here.”

    I know this…and that’s why I said it may not happen now, but someday,you will bow down to the very God whom you are rejecting and denying.

    I can only imagine that you are here because you question your own faith (which is again and again demonstrated in your need to tell others how holy you are, and how they are in big trouble with the lord)…”

    Holy? I’m not holy, Lil Tom, I’m a sinner just like you. The only difference between us is that I have allowed Jesus to come into my heart and forgive me by accepting that he died for my sins(which doesn’t mean anything to you).

    Veridicus,

    Like I said, you will never understand God in your human nature of thinking (this statement does not seem to be sinking in your mind no matter how many times I repeat it).

    I’m speaking spiritual matters (which you confuse with fairy-tales) and you are speaking physical matters that come with scientific evidence, these are two very different things and cannot add-up and that’s why perhaps you cannot understand me.Which brings me to the conclusion that maybe we should end our discussion here. One cannot reason the things of God with someone who is not willing to open up to the possibility of Him.

  21. on 26 Sep 2008 at 12:06 am 21.lil tom said …

    anointed,

    >What’s the matter, Lil Tom? Why are you being so emotional? Have I angered you so much that you say I don’t deserve to be spoken to with respect? Is it because I said I’ll pray for you or what?

    no. it’s because you continue to spout such stupidities as : “…and that’s why I said it may not happen now, but someday,you will bow down to the very God whom you are rejecting and denying.”, in a vain attempt to be condescending. you’re good at spouting insults and hellfire, an occasional, tired creationist argument, but haven’t yet added anything interesting or intelligent to the conversation.

    if you insist on publicly announcing your intention to pray for me (because *you* think I need it, even though you also say no one can know god’s will…), then I’ll publicly announce that I shall wave my magical wand over the head of a magical cabbage head I’ve constructed in your image in the hope that it will help you with your reasoning skills and your ability to be a kind person (you can’t PROVE it won’t work!). later, I’ll make a nice soup and have a lovely dinner with it. maybe I’ll sacrifice a few virgin moose, too for the volcano god Pele, just for good measure.

  22. on 26 Sep 2008 at 12:58 am 22.ray of happiness said …

    I am amuse of your prove on no one can enter Heaven.
    Ok. But the point I want to say… It is not easy to enter Heaven. But it is not impossible. Before I justify how heaven could exist scientifically, I will first make a statement then I will explain the items you mention in the youtube movie.

    ONE statement I will make boldly is
    “God and God’s creations are one”
    This statement means, everything you can see, feel, touch
    eat, drink, smell, trees, stones, water, computer… and
    even you yourself are formations from God and God and all God’s creations are one, nonetheless, God is the driving forces of all that exist in the pass, exist in now and exist in future.

    And there is a fallacy of thinking that God MUST exist in a human form (eg. Jesus) God must able to speak… God must do this or do that… that is all misconception. God is all there is, even the cockroach you step on, the tree you cut, the poor and helpless, all are God and God creations.

    Then questions springs up, if I am GOD, why don’t I know that ? why I don’t have GOD’s power ? why I cannot turn stone into Gold ? Why I am so miserable, why I am so poor ?
    you know, these questions you are asking from a tiny little human perspective. It is not entire GOD perspective. As a Human, which is part of the GOD. You have limited abilites and limited consciousness, limited power and limited life. But WHO can denied GOD can have GOD’s power, who says GOD cannot turn stone to gold ? that’s all is happening in nature and according to nature. (nature is part of GOD).
    As an analogy is given, car is make up by many parts, those part are manufacture in different factories. GOD is consist of everything that exist and if you insist to split, you can split GOD to Human, Animal, Plants… etc categories. But all that is your own Imagination and your own categorization in your little brain. The prove is, the brain you use to denied everthing, that even yourself cannot understand how it function, how intelligent come to be, because it is not ‘created’ by you, nature creates it and it is part of GOD, and so were you ‘using’ it and denied GOD. Got the idea ?

    Now comes to your prove.

    1 : What must I do to inhereit eternal Life ?
    Love God, Love neighbor, Eternal Life
    So can you Love GOD ? Love neightbor,
    Which is EVERYTHING… if you can LOVE everything
    where is your hatred ? If you do not have hatred
    your love is the love of GOD. GOD is everything.
    and GOD is Eternal. you Get what I mean ?
    Your little human ego perception expanded. And you
    are no longer ego bound limited consciousness. You
    gain the GOD consciousness and GOD is eternal. Do you
    Agree ?

    2 : Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal….
    Do not give false testiment…
    As you are stuck in your tiny human ego, you can only
    think of yourself, your benefits, you own happiness.
    You do not have the GOD perspective eg, everything
    is me, everything is myself, how can I cut my left hand
    with the right hand ? (murder) GOD consider every
    little life, stones, trees, grass as GODSelf. So GOD
    will not do any harm to anything. BUT Human is
    different. Even if you become so evil also GOD forgives
    you, is it not enough prove ?

    3 : Sell everything give to the poor…
    Sell everything, what does it mean ? It mean
    Give all. If you indulge your self as a Human,
    you probably think that is “insane”. IF You think
    again. All those things you have with you is not really
    yours. When you born, you brings nothing. And the more
    you think and the more you gain, you are likely rooted
    into your limited human ego. Because GREED is Human
    nature. and Give all is GOD Nature. GOD gives because
    GOD is all that is, whatever GOD gives is still
    belong’s to GOD. But Human keep, because Human think
    they are on their own. If you can Give All to those
    who need, then you will realize life is actually larger
    then what you think using your little human brain.

    4 : Then come follow me…
    Jesus invite you to follow the way of GOD,
    Which is the way of Heaven.

    5 : Hate father, mother, wife and children, brothers..
    sisters… Hate life itself… Give up everything…
    This is the contradiction you pointed out in the
    youtube. Do you know what is Hate father, Hate mother,
    wife and children really mean ? Let me give you an
    example. If there is an apple tree planted by you.
    some one pass by and cut down the tree you plant for 20
    years. So as a common Human, anger is inevitable. Now
    I expand it to your parents, your children, your wife
    etc. If you possessively LOVE but not genuine GOD’s
    equal love. What will you do if some one hit your
    parents ? you will kill or fight back ? revenge ?
    condemn etc ? because you think my parent is mine.
    such thinking is Human thinking, and Human can only
    best be born in Human world. GOD’s love is, if you
    hit my left cheek, I give you my right, after all
    you and my parents are ONE. For those who cannot Hate
    the possessive love to all you hold dear, but own them,
    cheerish in them, they never realize GOD’s love.
    Without GOD’s love how can you born in
    heaven ? That is what Jesus mean by hate your parents !

    6 : Eat flesh, drink blood.
    For this I no need to explain, GOD’s fresh = your
    bread. GOD’s blood, your bir in the bar. GOD is all
    there is ! You drink and you eat everyday.
    And you still complaint GOD is not good enough to you !
    How ingratitute of you little human ! I (GOD) manifest
    into herds, flocks, fishes… and you consume without
    consider my pain when I were slaughter by your advance
    slaughtering house. Can you little human do the same ?
    become a fish and let me kill for food ?

    7 : Little children..
    Can you be innocent again ? like the little child.
    with little need, little greed, little hatred.
    So I (GOD) don’t have to bleeding with all the killing
    and wars in the world ? Can you be mercy upon me (GOD)
    ?

    8 : Born again… born of water and the spirit. wind
    blows..
    Born of spirit has no forms. Wind here is one of the
    four great elements of nature not the ‘wind’ you see.
    wind here is mean movements. water means fluidity,
    fire mean heat, and earth mean solidity.

    9 : Pharisees. is group of people that tried their best
    to follow the ways of GOD, they have not all perfect
    but at least they try. And you should not mention on
    rules, Suppose there is no Rules that you can have
    WARs, quarrels, hatred but why you still making them ?

    10: Believe in God
    Do you believe in GOD ? do you believe and trust even
    your own wife ? GOD is everything, believe in GOD
    means believe in everything ! in GOD perspective,
    GOD believe everything. why ? because GOD is everything
    ! you cannot grasp it with Human Self centered
    perspective !

    The last, you say ‘heaven’ is just fairy tales, and my answer to you is “Yes, it is for you, and you only.”
    There is place far far better then earth, creature
    far more kind and holy then humans, far more selfless, greedless, happy, cheerful and kind. Where they were close to GOD and that places they live is call Heaven, you cannot go to heaven until you can do what Jesus says. It is not GOD’s punishments, it is your own rejection, your own choice and your own fault. If there is beings in heaven means it is possible to go there, and many kind humans has already born there. Some choose to come back and is stay among us. So you say why Jesus didn’t appear ? and my answer is He doesn’t appear in Jesus form as you know in the bible ! and you actually see GOD with your bright open eyes yet you do not even recognize it !

    I hope my explaination could shade you some lights,
    When in the deep night you cry in your bed, GOD is crying too. When you pray to the stars, GOD hears every words,
    But whatever you pray and do, think… Is it the GOD way or
    Human selfish way ? if 1000 Human do the same selfish deed
    How would GOD feel ? Can you have mercy upon GOD too ?
    If you fail to save the earth, how can GOD grant you
    the key to heaven ?

    Let us be like a little children.
    Ray of Happiness.

  23. on 26 Sep 2008 at 1:17 am 23.lil tom said …

    let us thank ray for that little bit of insight into the mind of a true believer…
    I stand corrected! there you go… *proof* that heaven exists. all of the atheists and rational thinkers of the world owe you a huge apology! we had it all wrong and you’ve shown us. thank you. thank you, Ray.

  24. on 26 Sep 2008 at 7:56 am 24.Anointed said …

    Lil Tom,

    Would you please stop dodging the real issue here.I asked you a question, remember??

    The reason you say the creation topic is “tiring” is because you know for a fact that it’s the only mysterious gap Scientists have not filled that could prove the existence of a maker and you’re trying to avoid it by all means.The fact that you fail to answer this question and would rather say I’m not really contributing anything to the discussion table that is worth discussing is because you know you cannot answer the question.

    You are hiding behind your sarcasm and it doesn’t really paint a good picture for you.

    Any how, I’m out of here, I rest my case.I will sincerely keep you in my PRAYERS because I really do care about your salvation-even if I seemed a little harsh sometimes.

  25. on 26 Sep 2008 at 8:43 am 25.VeridicusX said …

    Anointed,

    I answered your question here:
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=203#comment-15172

  26. on 26 Sep 2008 at 8:09 pm 26.lil tom said …

    anointed,

    I apologize. I honestly didn’t realize that your question was a question. next time please try to phrase your questions in an orderly way so that I know how to respond.

    now, in case you’re unfamiliar with the example of Bertrand Russell’s Teapot, it is perfectly in line with the question you are asking:
    “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

    now, do you suppose it should be the job of science to fill in the gaps of the teapot theory? is it rational to believe that this teapot exists until science can prove otherwise?
    the situation is identical to that of a creator, and I do hope this answers your question.

    you are arguing your own personal incredulity. “I can’t imagine a universe without a creator, so therefore there MUST be a creator”. this is not rational thinking. and without evidence, the question is beyond pointless. I believe Bigfoot created the universe, no, I believe it was harry potter, no, it was a giant unicorn (and science can’t prove it *wasn’t*!)

    the reason the gap exists in the first place is that it is that the question cannot be answered. of course an god with an eternal lack of evidence can never be proven to exist. that is a given. the gaps of biblical fact are narrowing as science expands not because science has sought to prove religion wrong, but because science answers questions that religion never asked. and that is the situation here. I think the question is flawed from the beginning. the very language is flawed. when we say “the creation of the universe” it indeed begs the identity of the “creator”. it’s a problem of semantics. in light of rational thought, we of course have no reason to *presume* that the universe was created by another thing (that would have to have been created, too).

    when you assert (without a shred of evidence) that our universe (stuff) was created by a god (of non-stuff?) out of… what? something? nothing?… the question itself is meaningless. get it?
    the assertion is that a creator (who had to come from either something else or nothing) created our something (either from something else or from nothing). it’s meaningless and only leaves us with MORE explaining to do.

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