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Christianity Johnson on 11 Sep 2008 12:00 am

Conventional logic vs. Religious insanity

26 Responses to “Conventional logic vs. Religious insanity”

  1. on 11 Sep 2008 at 9:52 am 1.PSR said …

    That would be hilarious if it weren’t so sad

  2. on 11 Sep 2008 at 11:58 am 2.Armchair General said …

    Hey look, this cartoon is a dead horse and Johnson is beating it. The horse, that is … I’m not sure what he does with his free time.

  3. on 11 Sep 2008 at 1:53 pm 3.OC said …

    Armchair General,

    There being no flaw in its logic, the cartoon succinctly proves your God to be imaginary, and shows God’s proponents to be bombastic fools.

  4. on 11 Sep 2008 at 2:20 pm 4.Armchair General said …

    Pfft … you’ve got Snag using absurdly un-scholarly sources as “proof” and now you’re upholding this cartoon as “proof.” Ha hah hah … hang on a second, I think I’ve got a Marmaduke strip that actually proves God exists…

  5. on 11 Sep 2008 at 6:28 pm 5.Foolish believer said …

    In conventional logic, replace the statement “I [have] a baseball” with the statement “The first particle that ever existed appeared from nowhere”

  6. on 11 Sep 2008 at 8:43 pm 6.lil tom said …

    “The first particle that ever existed appeared from nowhere”

    who ever made that claim?

    I find it astounding that the biblethumpers imagine that anyone has ever made this claim, especially the sciences.

    here’s the situation: religions claim “we KNOW where the first particle came from. God created it!”
    science says “we do not know where matter came from, but we are working on finding that out by studying the known universe to our best ability.”

    so that leaves the religious fools with a lot of explaining to do! in fact they are the ones who can never seem to explain away the glaring problem of the infinite regression of the creator. did he come from something? or nothing? by simply taking a moment to think about infinite regression, one sees that adding a creator to the equation just means one more thing that would have had to come from nothing (or something else)! and to say “well, god always existed” would be better explained by putting it: “the universe in some sense, MAY have always existed.

  7. on 12 Sep 2008 at 7:50 am 7.Foolish believer said …

    lil tom is absolutely right. We have the same problem. The Universe MAY have always existed; God MAY have always existed. In any event, as humans, we have limited knowledge and always live with uncertainty. We have to start our rationalization by establishing statements that we accept as facts. Based on these facts we can then infer further statements that seem logically correct.
    I humbly choose to believe in God and it actually helps me to rationalize so many things. There are also so many witnesses that can testify to the life changing experiences they have had by coming to a belief in God. This might not work for others, but everyone has their free will, resources and circumstance. When I die – and that is one fact: we will die (scientific or religious) – if God does not exist and our being dissipates into scattered matter, did my choice to believe in God alter anything?

    p.s. I don’t like being classed as a “religious fool”, as religion is man-made. I am in awe of the things science discovers as well. The wonders of the Universe being revealed day by day leave me just in awe of God – who I choose to accept as the eternal spirit of goodness, love and creation (including evolution science :-))…. our battle is not against each other, it is against the powers that seek to destroy goodness and love

  8. on 13 Sep 2008 at 7:22 am 8.lil tom said …

    Believer,

    thanks for your message of optimism and hope. As an atheist who wants to help others out of cults (I was raised mormon) I admit I can be a bit bitter at times.
    I’m aware that the many people of various faiths do not impose their beliefs on others. It is not my goal to bash religion or to put people down. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever that people choose to believe what they wish. I’m all for new ideas and different angles of thinking. Its only when ideas founded on baseless claims push their way into places where they don’t belong that there is reason for alarm. I think we can safely say that religion and politics don’t mix if we wish to live in a democracy. I think it can clearly be determined that creationism is not science nor should it be taught as such in schools. Yet, these and many other facets of other people’s beliefs have a very real effect on all of us. decisions on censorship, war, book bannings, civil rights, punitive measures, etc are commonly motivated by religious faith.

    As a believer, please try to put yourself in the shoes of a non-believer/skeptic. in fact you have already countless times in your life when you decide that a person doesn’t provide ample evidence. example: Say a friend of yours who you generally trust, becomes convinced suddenly that he has the ability to fly. excited, you ask him to demonstrate. ‘oh, well, the thing is – I can only fly when nobody’s looking’ he says. surely you would question his claim at this point. now you have a choice to let him believe his little delusion, or to take him to see a shrink. at first you let him have his private belief, but then he won’t stop talking about how GREAT his flights are and how awesome it to the point where it is causing a rift. it’s not a private belief if he’s talking about it. now he’s on Letterman and his ideas are catching on. now hundreds, maybe thousands believe they, too can fly but only when nobody’s looking. kids are falling out of windows, people are skydiving without parachutes, and there’s no way to “prove” them wrong. they’re flying, they KNOW they’re flying but they don’t have to prove it to you. You try to point out that people are dying, this is madness.. but the retort is always that “you just don’t understand how perfect it is to fly. and anyhow, if people would only stop “looking”, those poor kids wouldn’t fall, they’d fly freely!”
    I think you get the idea..

    there is no common ground. no conversation to be had, yet religious people love to flaunt their faith in a way that only makes them look that much crazier to the outsider (not unlike a bigfoot or elvis-walks-the-earth believer). this to the chagrin of both parties to the point of total hatred.

    why is it acceptable to question nearly every aspect of human behavior, yet it remains taboo to question the extremely bold and very public beliefs people profess to be Truth?
    I think it is completely fair game. we would all do well with more honest, non-combative conversation about these issues. but how to go about it?

    I visit christian blogs and clearly the New Atheists are only strengthening the convictions of many. people end up just insulting each other to no end, and debates go in circles. how can we generate an honest discussion. is it possible?

    I think we can safely say that we’ve ALL held irrational beliefs at some point in our lives just as we’ve all met somebody else who holds an irrational belief. how do you approach the other without being patronizing or offensive?

  9. on 13 Sep 2008 at 8:38 am 9.Foolish believer said …

    lil tom:

    i seriously have a problem with “religion”. it gives me the chills when one looks at things like the crusades and slavery. ok, given that I belong and have my membership in a certain church and I do not deny that I am a follower of Christ and His teachings, I don’t do this blindly and without question. Yes, Christianity is a religion as it labels a set of people that conform to a particular set of beliefs. However, whenever someone take the doctrines of Christianity (or any “religion”) and uses them for personal gain, the destruction of people, cutting-off people and the justification of taking advantage of people, its time to question!

    I am hesitant to comment directly on your statement “creationism is not science nor should it be taught as such in schools”, as I don’t know what your full intentions are with that statement. However, I believe the following:

    (1) creationism and science should not be seen as contradictory

    (2) creation is not about mystical, supernatural mumbo-jumbo; it is the story of life emerging through a sequence of scientifically-observable events; when Brian Cox explains creation from a particle physics perspective, during his TED talk about the LHC, the parallels to the Bible’s more primitive dissertation are fantastic; the work on string theory (even if still a theory it is cool) also blows my mind – it is as though these theoretical strings could be a representation of God’s voice in the Universe causing things to take shape (however, because of my convictions and beliefs, I am more prone to jump to these visions than others)

    (3) the goal of scientific work is not to dispute/refute the existence of God; it is to discover laws that are useful to sustain God’s creation i.e. our intended purpose

    (4) schools need to teach children how to do relevant work that leads to results that are productive and help to sustain life, the earth and beyond

    Returning to the analogy on “flying friend and flying children”; I think if my friend tells me that he can only fly when I am not looking, he is already cutting me off and therefore I question. If I am commanded to stop looking at children and let them fly, then I am being cut off from knowledge and set apart, hence I start to question. In the unbeliever’s shoes, yes, Christians are a bunch of crazies – but its because we sometimes get carried away with the emotional joy we experience living a life of faith, that we say and do crazy things.

    That said, if one flaunts their faith or understanding in an effort to say “ha, i am better than you”, then we will always go wrong. Every conversation, experiment and debate must be entered into with the expectation that we may discover something new that destroys everything we accepted as truth before. It all comes down to how we enter into debates, in my opinion. There will never be common ground if we begin with destructive rather than constructive motives. That said, within the context of this blog, the decision to believe or not to believe in God is the beginning and end of the discussions here. Since we are coming in with our predetermined convictions and the intention of disproving each other, there will be no common ground. We are searching for truth, but the problem we will always have is that I treat Truth and God as synonymous, while you might treat them as mutually exclusive (correct me if I am wrong). For me, even if you point me to something new that is provably true, I treat it as something new revealed about God.

  10. on 13 Sep 2008 at 9:31 pm 10.Tracie said …

    Does anyone else have a headache? Let it go people … God is ManMade … and always has been. He did not create us, we created HIM to give our lives purpose … instead of just accepting the fact that we are viruses set upon the path of destroying our host.

    When we die, we die. That’s it … nothing more … no crystal palace on golden streets … no big ole gods sitting on thrones … and no lake of fire.

  11. on 15 Sep 2008 at 7:53 am 11.Chirst's spokesperson said …

    Oh, really? If he does not exist then I wonder who was that God that responded to my challenging question about healing me from a broken heart I had a few years ago.I also believed He did not exist until I had an experience.I was hurting from a broken heart after my so called boyfriend dumped me. And mind you, I was at a Bible school I was forced to attend by my Dad. I challenged God to prove His existence to me by firstly healing me from my broken heart if He really cared at all. That same day a lady walked up to me and out of the blue she just said ‘God told me that there is someone who has broken your heart and He send me to tell you that He wants to heal you from it,” The interesting part is that no one knew that I was going through an emotional pain but myself, the lady didn’t even know me personally and I always pretended to be OK in front of everYbody.

    She prayed for me and I broke down in uncontrollable tears and the heartbreak left me instantly I did not even think about my ex again from that day on. Now tell me that’s a coincidence. After that incident, no one is going to tell me that God does not exist because I have seen His hand move in my life even though I have never SEEN Him. The incident I told you is just one among many. He exists, you just need to call on Him with your whole heart and He’ll answer you, believe me…

  12. on 16 Sep 2008 at 4:49 am 12.Thankful But Not to God said …

    I sat at my computer tonight, and I am so thankful that I ran into a video from this site on YouTube. Coincidence, certainly, but exactly what I had been looking for none the less. Living as an atheist in the Bible Belt in a small Mississippi town is hard in and of itself. Years ago, I wanted desperately to find God, had reached and all time low in my life addiction, failed marriages, etc. etc. My sins were not few. I sought God for comfort. I read the Bible over and over and over and over. I read other Books such as the Book of Mormon, went to churches, talked to missionaries, trying to find God. I prayed and prayed and prayed. And NOTHING EVER HAPPENED! The more I read it THE MORE IT DIDN’T MAKE SENSE! People would say to me, to read it and to pray, and I did day after day. I wanted to believe in redemption for my mistakes so desperately that I was willing to believe anything. I asked questions and no one had any answers. I would take chapters and compare them, but it was like mixing up puzzles and trying to make them all work together to make a picture. People prayed for me, I went to church, I got blessings. They said to ask in my heart and God would reveal the truth to me, but the only truth that was revealed to me is that GOD IS NOT REAL. COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE REAL. I was devastated. This was it. I had to live with myself, my mistakes, my failures, there was no heaven, no forgiveness. But then I realized that I needed to forgive myself, and live my life as best I could because FOLKS THIS IS IT! I probably could of found God then, if I hadn’t actually read the Bible so much, lol, people kill me here. I don’t know any other atheists in this area. I guess what I am trying to say is thanks for not making me feel so alone. Maybe I am not even posting to the right place on this site. But maybe the guy who did those videos will stumble across this and realize that HE gave his life purpose, NOT GOD, HE gave a moment of his life meaning, NOT GOD, just by touching another life in a positive way. And it was mine.

  13. on 16 Sep 2008 at 5:17 am 13.Christ's Spokesperson said …

    “Thankful but not to God”, I feel really sorry for you.For you to accept Jesus in your life does not require any supernatural miracle for Him to prove He exists and to show that your sins have been forgiven. When I became born-again, I did not feel any different from anybody else but I knew I was forgiven,you have to believe you are forgiven otherwise it all won’t make any sense to you.

    And when you read your Bible, if you read it like any other ordinary book, that’s how it will appear to you…”just another ordinary book”. My life revolves around that Book simply because I have discovered the secret of it. In every situation I find myself in, I always find comforting verses that refer to my situation because I read that book under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and He reveals it’s truths to me. Of course if you take it as an ordinary book…that’s how it will appear to you…based on your faith.

  14. on 16 Sep 2008 at 6:26 am 14.PSR said …

    Christ’s Spokesperson,

    It is strange that Christ would need a spokesperson. Since he is all-powerful and omnipresent, why doesn’t Christ speak for himself?

  15. on 16 Sep 2008 at 7:46 am 15.Christ's Spokesperson said …

    PSR, Like I said in one of my comments, God is a spirit and for Him to operate, He must use a body, not just any body but of a believer who represents Him.

    Even when Jesus was on Earth He said the Father was in Him and He was speaking the words of the Father and those who were listening found it ridiculous.As the Bible itself puts it…the things of God are foolish to those who do not believe.You know, PSR, your question reminds me of Jesus when He was on the cross when they were challenging Him saying, “If you are the Son of God get yourself down from that cross,”

    People mocking me because I’m simply His mouthpiece just like He was mocked. Jesus also said, “If the world hated me, they will hate you too,”…very interesting indeed. You are simply fulfilling what He has said.

  16. on 16 Sep 2008 at 10:20 am 16.PSR said …

    Christ’s Spokesperson

    “God is a spirit and for Him to operate, He must use a body, not just any body but of a believer who represents Him…” “People mocking me because I’m simply His mouthpiece”

    God is also all-knowing. If I ask you something that you don’t know but that an all-knowing being would, why can’t you answer the question?

  17. on 17 Sep 2008 at 2:08 am 17.Thankful But Not to God said …

    I wasn’t asking for a miracle, in fact I wasn’t asking for anything. I prayed for truth. I prayed that God would open my heart to him. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I read and read and read. Then I decided that even though the Bible might contain some moral lessons that were good. The stories were in no way even plausible. It just didn’t make any sense. Nothing about it made any sense at all. I found the sexism totally offensive. The acts of God to be horrific and the entire story to be so incredibly ludicrus that only a moron would believe such stuff. Don’t feel sorry for me, I feel sorry for you to be so gullible and incapable of logical thought.

    Have you even watched the vids? It might open your eyes up a little…

  18. on 17 Sep 2008 at 4:55 am 18.Christ's Spokesperson said …

    Thankful but not to God, if you do not understand a Maths sum, does it simply mean it has no meaning? No? or does it simply mean Maths does not exist or apply to your life in any way? Would you have given up on a subject at school simply because you do not understand it?

    The point here is that just because you do not understand something, it does not mean it’s not affective in any way. Does the word ‘revelation’ mean anything to you? To understand the Bible (and for it to make sense), one must look at the larger picture.

    The problem with most people is that they confuse the Old Testament with the New. In the Old Testament, the Law was enforced because people were not reconciled with God (horrific acts of God as you put it). They had to do certain things in order to meet the requirements of God, yes, even if God had to be a little harsh on them (What else would a parent do if the child repeatedly is disobedient?)because God cannot stand sin.

    God saw that even with the enforcements of these laws, people were still distant from Him. So He send Jesus to die for them once and for all, to make it easier for people to be reconciled to Him. That’s why the New Testament says we no longer live by the law (Old Testament Law) because Jesus Has provided the way. What is so difficult to understand about that? Don’t say God does not exist simply because you do not understand how He works.It’s the same thing as a Father who loves his kid but the kid keeps throwing all the love the father has for him back in his face with the nasty things he does.The father punishes the kid for a while and then naturally draws him back to himself.The father hates the sin but still loves his son.

  19. on 17 Sep 2008 at 5:19 am 19.Christ's Spokesperson said …

    PSR,

    To come back to your question,I must say you have really made a good point there. But can I ask you something?

    If someone were to deny the authority of George Bush as president, wouldn’t you think it absurd if Bush flies all the way to that State just to try to convince that person that he is indeed the president? Obviously if Bush hears about this person he’ll just laugh it off and brush it aside because he knows he is the president regardless of what some might say in their denial of him.(someone who is loyal to Bush and who is close to that person will be the one trying to convince him)

    Same thing with God. Do you expect Him to suddenly appear with a loud, thunderous voice just because he wants to prove a point to a group of unbelieving people about his existence while he knows he is indeed the God of the universe? Why should he when he has left us with his word that tells us all about him? when he has believers who can testify about him? If you do not believe in his word and in those that he uses to testify about him then it’s up to you. That’s why the Bible says that though they be seeing (the miracles) they do not believe, though they be hearing (the word) they do not believe…

  20. on 17 Sep 2008 at 11:16 am 20.PSR said …

    Christ’s Spokesperson,

    Continue to think about it. Eventually, if you are intellectually honest with yourself, you will see the truth. The reason why you cannot say more than you know, even though you claim to be channeling an all-knowing being, is because the all-knowing being does not exist. You are imagining the whole thing.

    The example with George Bush falls flat because GB is not all-powerful or all-knowing, he has never claimed to love me or to be my creator, he has never said he wants a personal relationship with me, and he does not threaten to torture me for eternity if I do not follow the right path.

  21. on 17 Sep 2008 at 12:03 pm 21.Thankful But Not to God said …

    Using a math problem is a really good example of my point too. Just because we haven’t figured out the equation to sum up the creation of the universe doesn’t mean that we never will. I like to think of myself as a logical, rational person and I believe that given enough time humanity will eventually figure things out. I don’t need to make up some rationalize for the creation of the universe. It was created naturally even if we don’t know how it all works exactly at this point in history. Your God will eventually be overcome by science and reasoning, just like every other God of every other culture in the past, it is only a matter of time before fact replaces superstition.

  22. on 17 Sep 2008 at 12:45 pm 22.Christ's Spokesperson said …

    Thankful but not to God,

    In the book of Daniel in the Bible, it is clearly stated that in the last days (which is our days now) ‘KNOWLEDGE WILL INCREASE AND PEOPLE WILL RUN HERE AND THERE AROUND THE WORLD, CURIOUS AND WANTING TO KNOW HOW IT ALL STARTED’, in simple terms, we can say that the Bible predicted that in our time, people (our scientists) will be full of wisdom.It’s funny how everything that is happening around us today is already in the Bible when you people claim it does not make sense.

    You don’t impress me with science overcoming God, God already knew that in our time, people will have the knowledge they posses now.They are simply fulfilling scripture and there’s a reason for that.

    And no, Christianity is not going to die down. It will just become more and more powerful as we are nearing the end of time.People are getting saved all over the world as we speak. Please note that I’m not saying this out of a stubborn heart but simply out of love.

  23. on 18 Sep 2008 at 3:04 am 23.Thankful But Not to God said …

    But you see the Christian faith IS DYING. You can’t kill the nonbelievers anymore, and our numbers grow. And us – with our science, and technology, and experiments – will eventually destroy the gods of myth and superstition and replace them with knowledge and truth.

    You can cling to any God you choose, but in the end, and maybe not even in your lifetime or mine, but in the end, logic and reasoning will prevail. I believe in humanities potential to grow – to evolve.

  24. on 20 Sep 2008 at 3:06 am 24.Glenn said …

    I know what ur saying, there is no God, we came from the big bang. Feck yeah we did, but out of that big bang came a supreme being i’m not saying it’s god’ i’m saying there’s something there. Put it this way, ever done the quija board, ever done the tarot, ever listned to Mr Crowley, there’s more to this life, and i for one believe in higher beings, not E.T and all that shit, but a higher being i’m not a christian, but i do believe there is a supreme being. If you look at nature, there is always a higher being, for example the wolf has an alpha male, the lion has the head of the pride, the United states has the president and the U.K has the queen, and i’m sure you have a somebody who you conform to. Think about it we aren’t here for nothing. Look at the Universe as a whole. In conclusion, there is a heaven… not sure if there is a hell.

  25. on 20 Sep 2008 at 3:12 am 25.Glenn said …

    To reply 22, we have been told over and over the world is coming to an end, lol, i don’t mock but get a reality check it’s not, full stop. We are here and we will be long after ur daed and our grandchildren. Wise up!!!

  26. on 20 Sep 2008 at 3:34 am 26.Glenn said …

    In the bible it says it started with Adam and Eve, full stop. That means in-breading, which isn’t good for any culture or society as a whole. Incest is a sin in Gods eyes, and not too good biologicaly but if the human race came about the way the bible says, then is not a sin. Also Mary at the time of her immaculate conception was 13. Wake up and realise, the words that are in your scriptures are false, and they have to be, come on.
    A good reply to this would be welcome, because maybe i’m missing something.

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