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Christianity Thomas on 13 Mar 2011 12:12 am

The Christian God needs a lesson in strategic planning or he doesn’t exist

This is a popular thread from the forums:

The Christian God needs a lesson in strategic planning or he doesn’t exist

One of the strongest arguments against the Christian God is the “argument from hiddenness”. If God allegedly loves us, wants us to believe in him, wants to redeem us, wants to have a relationship with us, and wants us to follow his commands, the fact that he is invisible, unverifiable, and uncommunicative (other than a hodgepodge of ancient texts and subjective internal voices) is illogical and a strong indictment against his existence.

There is no need for anyone not to be a believer. There is no need for any religion to exist other than Christianity. There is no need for the myriad of sects, denominations, subdenominations, and “cults” to exist either. There is no need for any disagreements among Christians regarding any doctrine. If God communicated clearly, no one would be confused about anything whatsoever.

The funniest thing about the “argument from hiddenness” is the fact that anyone would suggest it. Didn’t God write the Bible? Didn’t God flood the entire planet and then create rainbows to remind us of that flood? Didn’t God send his son to earth? Doesn’t God answer prayers today? Christians believe all of these things, and then in the same breath claim that God must remain hidden. The delusion is palpable:

245 Responses to “The Christian God needs a lesson in strategic planning or he doesn’t exist”

  1. on 15 Mar 2011 at 6:27 pm 1.EmoHeart said …

    The fact that the so called “God” hasn’t even shown us that he exists (besides ancient writing that we have no proof if its all true or a delusional human being wrote it) shows me that God is a fraud. Why do you give churches money? So they can pay their bills or buy things for themselves. Why do we need to go to church every Sunday? So that the church gets money. Why do we have to help the church with their services and community service? Because they can’t do it themselves. What’s the point in having a religion when all it causes is war? Because the government wants to decrease our population so they keep the lie going. Any questions? Feel free to ask me any chance you get, thanks.

  2. on 16 Mar 2011 at 8:51 pm 2.DBD said …

    No christian is delusional. Firstly, God placed us in the earth which he created. God also created us. We were in constant communication and communion with God in the beginning. Things weren’t as they are now. God gave us dominion over this earth. But, Adam and Eve did not trust God when he instructed them NOT to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because if they did they would surely die. Instead they relied on and trusted in the words of Satan, which were against God’s instruction by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and thus began our swift displacement from our original communion with God. We had a glory covering our bodies, which was instantaneously removed after the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is why Adam and Eve sought to place fig leaves to cover their nakedness. In their ignorance, they even sought to hide from the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God. God covered them using animal skin and told them what their fall means for future generations. However, he also fortold the virgin birth of Jesus Christ via the following sentence found in Genesis 3:15, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Notice that God pointed out that the offspring of the woman would crush Satan’s head? Who is the woman? Who is the offspring of the woman? The woman is the Virgin Mary and the offspring of the woman is Jesus. That’s why a male wasn’t discussed here. Jesus defeated Satan by dying on the cross for all of our sins. Basically, Jesus, having lived a righteous life of NO SIN, traded with us our sins, diseases, and spiritual death with His righteousness, health, healing, and spiritual life. Satan didn’t know all of this at the time of the prophesy, but if you read the bible and the whole bible has to do with Satan trying to find the righteous people and killing them because he did not want to have his head crush. The first example of Satan trying to prove God wrong came with Adam and Eve’s first two children Cain and Abel. Satan saw that Abel was good, so he influenced Cain to kill Abel before Abel supposedly would crush his head. That’s why Cain committed the first murder, he was used by Satan. You reject God because He refuses to be a geenie in a bottle for you. You want your every selfish desire to be fulfilled and you believe that if God doesn’t do as you say, then He doesn’t exist. You are deceiving yourself. No one will cherish a relationship with a geenie in a bottle. That is witchcraft. God wants to have a genuine relationship with you and everyone else on this earth. The reason why some people’s prays aren’t answered the way they want them is because they ask with wrong motives and selfish desires. God is light and in Him there is NO DARKNESS at all. So, if a person asks God for healing, but will get mad at God if it doesn’t happen the way they want it to has defeated themselves already because they are trying to have God who is ONLY LIGHT perform something DARK. It doesn’t work that way with God. It doesn’t matter how many people ask God, they must be willing to stick with God no matter what happens or doesn’t happen. You can bet your bottom dollar that many people prayed to God to NOT have JESUS DIE ON THE CROSS. But if God answered their prayers which were misguided and misunderstood, then ALL OF HUMANITY WOULD BE ETERNALLY DEAD WITH NO HOPE OF LIFE! So, prayers are answered, but not the way we would always like. The key to answered prayer is found in Romans 12:1-2. Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Then, you will be able to pray as Jesus prayed in Matthew 6:9-13. “This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’” God tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15 to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” There is a wrong way to divide the word of truth and cherry picking scriptures or verses is the wrong way. You must first be born again. Second, you consider the whole bible and all that was said, not just one scripture. Third, follow the glimmer of light shining in your life, not darkness. The way you can distinguish light from darkness is simple. In darkness you are stumbling, unsure of where to go, unsure of what to do, uncertain of the consequences. In the light, you know the next step to take and you are sure of where that next step will lead you. You don’t know the big picture because you are walking by faith, but you do know the next step. Read the story of Abraham to gain more perspective on what it means to walk by faith. Abraham was originally a worshipper of the moon god, but he heard God and he followed. Will you do the same?

  3. on 16 Mar 2011 at 9:03 pm 3.TGHO said …

    @2 DBD,

    What junk! Got any actual *evidence* that your god-being exists? Bible verses are not evidence of anything beyond the fact that bronze age goat herders didn’t know anything about how nature actually worked.

  4. on 16 Mar 2011 at 9:46 pm 4.MrQ said …

    DBD,
    Maybe you should meet some of your fellow christians on this blog. They go so far as to say the Earth is billions of years old and they believe in the Theory of Evolution. Look up Francis Collins and Ken Miller; many of the christians posting here mention and subscribe to their version of reality.

    Otherwise, you weave a mildly amusing fairy tale. But maybe next time try more “Unbelievers, you’ll swim in a sea of fire” types of lines to gain converts. You know, try fear.

  5. on 17 Mar 2011 at 5:19 am 5.sonofapreacherman said …

    That’s a whole lot of circular reasoning there, DBD. I’ve heard this same, sad, sorry, sap of a story time and time again. It means nothing. It is empty. It doesn’t ring true.

    The truth is inevitably straightforward. Lies, on the other hand, require a lot of explanations to get them just right and to tie up all the loose ends. The truth: there is no god. A lie: your story.

  6. on 17 Mar 2011 at 5:24 am 6.DBD said …

    TGHO:

    Your evidence that God exists is right here, right now! God has entered your life to answer your questions, not the way you want them answered, but to provide the answers you NEED. If you reject Him now, you are rejecting eternal life. If you reject eternal life and you die never having accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior, I declare that on Judgement Day, God will show you why you will be consumed in hell. And you will acknowledge justice; you will agree with your sentence. But, why take on a sentence of death in Hell, when you can have eternal life even though you are a sinner?

    Joseph Prince, a pastor in Singapore once said that “At the cross, he wore ‘Sin’-'ai’, the thorns, so that, he took your place. He had no sin and yet he hung in your place. Why? Because everyone of us know if we have sinned, someone must pay, someone must pay, and many of times subconsciously we make ourselves pay, or else we make our children pay, or we make our spouse pay. Alright. We have a tendency for…a propensity towards rightness, fairness. ‘Oh that is not fair’…There is something called conscious in man. Man knows when he sins, somebody must pay, and it’s true, somebody has to pay and Jesus paid for all our sins. So, you can stop hitting yourself, you can stop hitting your loved ones. You know you love them. You’re trying to punish yourself, by punishing them or yourself. Your punishment was all finished at the cross, when he wore the crown of thorns.”

    God says to you right now, “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the LORD your GOD, obeying Him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days.”

    You can choose life right now, if you choose to exercise that sixth sense, FAITH. God is NOT a geenie in a bottle. You come to Him on His terms because your understanding is limited. I pray that you would believe in God!

    MrQ:

    Christians that believe in evolution/big bang to be how humans/earth originated, don’t fully understand how to reconcile the word of God with the scientific evidence. I declare that some things are just not to be understood using our physical senses. Only faith provides the evidence of certain things.

    This is all about realms of proof. Now follow me, in a realm in which we only utilize physical observation and use of our five senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste), proof of anything in that realm is only limited by those five senses. But, what if this physical realm originated from another higher spiritual realm in which God exists and utilizes other types of observation beyond our five senses? A person can’t possibly probe that spiritual realm using only a limited set of five senses. One needs something more and that something more is called FAITH.

    So, what if for the rest of your life, you only rely on these five senses to prove anything? Then you will never have the chance to experience God because the realm in which God exists is beyond your limited ability to observe. You would only utilize your five senses to prove anything, while God can only be observed via FAITH. (ie. What if we only believed in the law of gravity without consideration of the law of lift, which supersedes the law of gravity and allows us to utilize airplanes?)

    So, what is Faith? In Hebrews 11:1 FAITH is…the evidence of things not perceived by the senses. So, to access this higher spiritual realm in which God does exist one must have faith, which does not rely on our five senses.

    Without faith, you are just as limited as a person looking at a wire connecting two telephone poles. From that person’s perspective, the wire has only one dimension, either left or right. But, to an ant traveling on that wire, there are two dimensions in which it can travel, not only left or right but in a circle around the cylindrical surface of the wire.

    So, who has faith? The bible in Habakkuh 2:4, romans 1:17, galatians 3:11, and hebrews 10:38 says that the righteous live by faith. What does that mean? Well, long story short, according to Romans 3:23 all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That means you and I have both not been able to meet God’s high moral standards. In days of the old testament, God gave Jewish people instructions to live by which included sacrificing animals to be killed instead of the death of the sinful human. Because as stated in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death. But these sacrifices were incomplete because they had to be done repeatedly to cover any new sins. Also, the instructions were a long list but were not long enough to cover every single step that a person takes in life. In the gospels of the bible, came Jesus who lived a sinless life on earth and did meet God’s high moral standards because he was not merely a human, he is God. Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross, in a way mimicing the sacrifice of animals by Jewish people of former times. But, the sacrificial death of Jesus was all we needed to be free from the consequences of sin, which is death. The rest of Romans 6:23 states that God’s gift is eternal life given by Jesus Christ our Lord. There are two reasons why Jesus is all anyone needs to not suffer the consequences of sin. 1) Jesus is the perfect sacrifice for any sinner and transforms that sinner into a righteous person, but the sinner is only made righteous through Jesus not by any works or even following the law as handed down by Moses (this can be proven by comparing old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, understanding who God is and what His covenants with humans are) and 2) when a person believes in Jesus’s ability to save him/her from death they will become indwelt with the Holy Spirit who will help said individual to eventually live a life pretty close to meeting God’s high moral standards.

    So, how does a person acquire faith? Firstly, only the righteous live by faith, meaning those who believe in Jesus Christ live by faith as stated in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” So, people who believe in Jesus will live by faith and can acquire it via Romans 10:17 which states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So you must 1st be a christian and 2nd read the word of God, the bible, and think about it in relation to your life and experiences.

    So, you do not believe in Jesus, and therefore you can not have the faith which will give you access to the realm in which God exists. So, my message to you is to TRY CHRIST. What do you have to lose? If I’m wrong, you could always go back to believing the lies of Satan. Try Him.

  7. on 17 Mar 2011 at 5:40 am 7.DBD said …

    sonofapreacherman:

    Have you ever heard of the phrase “the truth shall set you free?” Do you know where that came from? Jesus said the phrase and it is written in the bible. But, anyone who utilizes the phrase neglects what Jesus said before the phrase. Jesus said to those who believed in Him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” So, in fact, NO ONE CAN KNOW THE TRUTH UNLESS they hear and see and know and live and DO the word of God. If you do not, you can’t possibly know the truth. You only know lies.

    “Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” John 8:43-47

  8. on 17 Mar 2011 at 7:02 am 8.TGHO said …

    @6 DBD,

    E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-D

    Stop spouting glurge and turn on your brain for once.

  9. on 17 Mar 2011 at 7:44 am 9.Severin said …

    2 DBP
    “No christian is delusional.”

    If I said: “No muslim is delusional”, what would you say?

  10. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:03 am 10.Severin said …

    2 DBP
    ” Jesus defeated Satan by dying on the cross for all of our sins.”

    So, there is no Satan any more!?
    If Satan still exists, Jesus did not defeat him, and Jesus died for nothing!

    I would not expect an all-mighty, all-knowing god (Jesus = god?!) to die for nothing, unless he was an idiot – in which case he obviously was not allmighty and allknowing, in other words: he was not a god.

    What was the sense of Jesus’ sacrificing?
    What CHANGED after he died for our “sins”?
    Did people quit sinning, or WHAT?

  11. on 17 Mar 2011 at 2:34 pm 11.DBD said …

    TGHO:

    I didn’t have evidence before I came to Jesus Christ. I just dared to believe. Just like you dared to believe that the chair you are sitting in will NOT collapse before sitting in it or the sandwich you are eating doesn’t have chards of glass in it before taking a bite.

    Believe in God, the miracles will come. I have experienced a multitude of miracles and expect many more as I grow in faith. Be careful, because in the end times, the devil will utilize miracles to convince people to fight with him against God.

    In Revelation 16:13-14 it states: “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

    Severin:

    Firstly, you ask very good questions.

    I would say that any person who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ being God is first deceived and second delusional. I didn’t say it, but God did:

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 it states: “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    I didn’t say there is no Satan anymore, I said that Satan is already defeated. God defeated Satan already, that’s why all Satan has as his weapons are deceit and destruction. Satan uses circumstances to try to get everyone to believe his lies. In fact, John 8:44 refers to him as the father of lies here “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” God has reserved the judgement of the wicked and Satan for an appointed time after Satan’s actual defeat because among other reasons God loves the world so much that He is waiting for all people who would ever want to be saved to CHOOSE to be saved and then be saved. Since God is Love, He is also Patience and He gives us all the ability to CHOOSE Him. 2 Peter 3:9 states that “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    Jesus didn’t die for nothing. You call yourself nothing? You are able to experience life at such a time as this because God didn’t end the world right after Satan was defeated. If God ended the world and threw Satan and the wicked into the Lake of Fire right after Jesus died on the cross, then you and I would not have had the opportunity to exist and have the opportunity to choose God. God can’t end the world without considering your desire to choose Him because God is Love. If God were to do that, then He would not really be able to say that He loves you. The definition of love is found in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”

    There is NO COMMON SENSE in Jesus Christ’s sacrifices. In fact, commonly people do not trade good things for bad things. But, Jesus Christ is NOT COMMON. He is the ONE AND ONLY son of God as it states in John 3:16-18, ” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

    In society when someone is caught doing a crime, they must be brought to justice. The bible says that ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God and that the wages of sin is death. But God loves us, would like to have a relationship with us and doesn’t want us to have to die for being sinners. So, he sent Jesus Christ to live life as we live, to experience what we experience that causes us to sin. Jesus Christ also showed us how to live a sinless life. Jesus Christ also died in our stead. Jesus Christ took your sins and my sins and everyone elses sins that ever lived and will ever live and gave us His righteousness as a gift so that we may live eternally having a relationship with God. Any wrong that you ever have done, are doing, and will do will be considered null and void if you believe in Jesus Christ and accept the gift that Jesus Christ gave. 1 John 1:5-10 says “This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

    There were many things that changed after Jesus died for our sins. It would take me a while to get through it all, because it has to do with the old testament or covenant being finished and the new testament or covenant being ushered in. But, here’s a short explanation. John 1:17 says “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Grace is when we get what we don’t deserve. For instance, as sinners, we don’t deserve righteousness but we get it anyway. Jesus didn’t deserve our sin, but he took it anyway. Truth comes to those who believe in Jesus Christ and continue in His word as stated in John 8:30-32: “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Matthew 22:34-40 states “Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Galatians 5:18 states “But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” This is the Law handed down by Moses in the old testament. We are now UNDER JESUS CHRIST. The whole point of everything that happened in the old testament was LOVE.

    People didn’t quit sinning after Jesus died on the cross. What happened is people who chose to allow Jesus Christ to enter their hearts now have their sins be NO MORE. They can live life trying to grow in Christ, LEARNING HOW NOT TO SIN AND NOT TO HAVE SIN RULE THEM, loving others as they are loved by God, living their lives by faith, enjoying companionship with others and doing the will of God on this earth WITHOUT THE FEELING OF CONDEMNATION FOR THEIR PAST SINS AND FUTURE SINS. I hope this explains everything well. I also pray Severin that you would come to Jesus. God loves you and wants a relationship with you.

  12. on 17 Mar 2011 at 3:23 pm 12.MrQ said …

    DBD, #6/11
    That’s the spirit. You’ve ratcheted up the fear level from your initial entry.

    Now how do I tap into this spiritual realm which you speak of? I was born in southern Sweden (land of the Vikings) and could more easily buy into Norse mythology than to the biblical version(s). I could have faith that when I die I ride with the Valkyries to Odin’s great hall where I’ll drink mead and ale, party for eternity, and happily share stories with like minded believers.

    Just asking, how did you come to find Jesus? Was there something amiss in your life? Try not to be offended, but you sound like a born-again.

  13. on 17 Mar 2011 at 5:29 pm 13.sonofapreacherman said …

    To: DBD 2, 6, 7, 11:

    Blah, blah, blah, blah. Please stop preaching. Your words are perfectly clear to me, and I understand exactly what you are saying. I know the truth, and I live the truth each and every day of my life. You, however, are enfeebled by a pack of self-delusional lies, and it is disrespectful of you to continually regurgitate sermons here as you robotically attempt to convert others to your way of thinking.

    I urge you, DBD, to produce your god this very afternoon on the front lawn of the Whitehouse. Ask your god to speak to all of us at once. Get your god to project himself omnipresently around the globe so that all of mankind will stop, see and hear him simultaneously so that we may all know and agree that he is the real deal. Allow your god to prove for himself to all of us how genuine and sincere he really is. Then and only then will I be convinced of his deity. Surely this can’t be too much to ask of your god, a god who is supposedly almighty and one who purportedly wants nothing more than to grant his bloody mercy unto every man, woman and child rather than throw any of them into that hot and nasty ol’ lake of fire and crusty brimstone.

    Conversely, you could ask your god to kill me right now. Ask him to end my evil existence so that I will be stopped in my tracks from the daily blasphemy I make against his supposedly holy name. I dare your stupid god to end my existence right here and now. In fact, that’s a double dare!

    Maybe your god really can lick my lizard any day of the week (he might even develop a taste for it), but for now I’ll just plan on checking back in with you here a few hours from now and see what kind of progress your silly god might have made. I’m pretty sure I’ll still be hale and hearty. I’m even more certain that your lame god still won’t have managed to muster the huevos to make an appearance on the White House lawn — nor will he have done anything else whatsoever — because your god is not real. There is no god, DBD, but you can run down to your local humane society and pick up a dog if it will make you feel better.

  14. on 17 Mar 2011 at 6:21 pm 14.Rostam said …

    ‘I know the truth, and I live the truth each and every day of my life.”

    Son

    We all want the Truth. Could you please share the Truth with us?

    Thanks

  15. on 17 Mar 2011 at 6:59 pm 15.TGHO said …

    @11 DBD,

    Sorry, I require evidence before formulating a belief. You’re going to have to do better than that.

  16. on 17 Mar 2011 at 7:01 pm 16.TGHO said …

    @14 Rostam,

    The simple truth is that there’s no supernatural being interested in you or your life. The universe is just as it is, with no creator or designer. Unless there’s actual, definitive evidence otherwise (which there doesn’t seem to be).

  17. on 17 Mar 2011 at 7:29 pm 17.Anti-Theist said …

    The truth is that this planet holds many people with many different beliefs. You have injected yourself into a community who does not subscribe to your beliefs to harass, attack, and intimidate them into conversion. You are sick for that reason and should be ashamed.

  18. on 17 Mar 2011 at 7:44 pm 18.Oort Cloud said …

    “I urge you, DBD, to produce your god this very afternoon on the front lawn of the Whitehouse.”

    I urge Son of a Preacher Man! to produce the oort cloud right on the Whitehoue lawn!

    If you cannot, then we must assume they do not exist.

    If God spoke to your Preacher Boy you would only institutionalize yourself as delusional. Do not deceive yourself, your ilk would except no proof for God’s existence. You believe all truth is found in science. Of course, you are wrong as much as much as your tests are absurd.

    After all those years in some religion, you still do not know Jesus stated not to test God? He has nothing to prove some atheist on a blog. You thinks way too much of yourself.

  19. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:00 pm 19.DBD said …

    MrQ:

    I don’t understand your first statement, but fear is unbelief in God’s word. So, if you sense fear, it may be the forthcoming judgement to those wicked people who refuse to allow Jesus Christ to save them from hell. God has NOT given us a spirit of fear. Anyone who fears hasn’t reached perfection in love. Since God is love, then believing in God will help individuals lessen their fears. Faith is the opposite of fear; faith is belief in God’s word.

    In order to tap into the spiritual realm, one must have faith in God. FAITH is…the evidence of things not perceived by the senses. So, to access this higher spiritual realm in which God does exist, even though an individual doesn’t see, hear, touch, taste, or smell God, this person knows that God exists. Since Jesus Christ is God, one must believe in Jesus Christ and believe His story of dying on the cross so that all might receive salvation.

    You’ve made a good point. Anyone can believe anything they want. You can believe in Norse mythology if you’d like, but make sure that what you are believing is really the truth. Because if it isn’t, then you will have been deceived. And you will have no one to blame but yourself as you are condemned to Hell. If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, then you are unfortunately condemned already and you will receive penalty for believing a lie to be truth.

    For example, the Japanese were told by their government only the other day that the radiation coming from one nuclear plant was so small that it was NOT significant. Now we realize that the Japanese government lied to their citizens on many levels and in fact there are severe threats of radiation leaks from 7 nuclear power plants and the Japanese government has instituted an evacuation zone. In fact, the US evacuation zone is greater than the Japanese one. If Japanese citizens believed the lies of the Japanese government, then they will receive the penalty of radiation poisoning for believing the lies of their government to be truth.

    The same happens for people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, but choose to believe that God does not exist. They will reap the negative consequences of falsely believing the lie to be truth.

    John 3:16-18 states “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

    I was raised in church, so I can’t remember how I came to God, but I did stop attending church in my high school and college years. I was sick and tired of all of the hypocritical christians I came across. They judged other people, while having so many of their own issues. I returned to church a couple of years ago when I visited a church with a friend and heard the word of God preached, which helped me to see the importance of going to church. I realized that there may be people at church I don’t like, but why toss the baby out with the dirty bathwater? Why should I stop coming to church altogether save for a few hypocrites? I am born again. Do you know what it means to be “BORN” “AGAIN”? It means that you get a do-over. You get to start all over. All of your past sins and wrongs are null and void and you get a chance to learn the right way to live via Jesus Christ who lives in the heart of every believer.

    sonofapreacherman:

    As I said before, God loves you so much that he has given you the right to choose. “but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” You say you know EXACTLY WHAT I’M SAYING. So, if you know exactly what I’m saying, but you blatantly choose to go against what I say, then you are judging that you should be condemned. You say you know the truth. Well, if you know the truth, but blatantly decide to reject it, then you are judging that you should be condemned. You even say that you live the truth. Well if you really do live the truth, then God will ask you for the evidence of your living of the truth. God will take you at your word, because God is just. Truthfully, I can’t even say that I unequivovably know the truth or live the truth. That’s why I continue in God’s word daily. Everyday more truth is revealed to me. But, I wouldn’t dare declare what you have declared.

    Everything you want will happen, but NOT WHEN you want it. “[You want] God to speak to all of us at once. [You want] God to project Himself omnipresently around the globe so that all of mankind will stop, see and hear Him simultaneously so that we may all know and agree that He is the real deal. [You want] God to prove for Himself to all of us how genuine and sincere He really is.” Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 20:11-15, Romans 14:11

    You say, “Then and only then will I be convinced of his deity.” Once again you are admitting what you know. So, when you are condemned, don’t be surprised.

    Know that God is patient. So, all judgement is reserved for an appointed time in the future.

  20. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:13 pm 20.DBD said …

    TGHO:

    Since you NEED evidence, then you don’t NEED God. I pray for you.

    Anti-Theist:

    Are you feeling harrassed, attacked, or intimidated? Sounds like you’re afraid! You should be! If I were espousing your beliefs I would be to. Remember fear is unbelief in God’s word. Do you want a life free of fear? Do you want to not feel harrassed, attacked, or intimidated? Have faith in God, which is belief in God’s word! I will NEVER say that I am feeling harrassed, attacked, or intimidated, because the Lord my God is a very present help. “I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I KNOW I WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME. He who vindicates me is near. Who then will bring charges against me? Let us face each other! Who is my accuser? Let him confront me! It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me. Who will condemn me? They will all wear out like a garment; the moths will eat them up.” Found in Isaiah 50:6-9.

  21. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:33 pm 21.Anti-Theist said …

    You are a liar. You are scared of anything that exists outside of your arrogant little sheltered world. Man rules you, not god; and you live your life and base your decisions according to the laws man has imposed on you. You are alone and when you die you will cease to exist. The amount of scripture you hide behind attests to the infancy of your beliefs along with your underdeveloped set of priorities. Your being hear alone contradicts the morals you claim to hold so dear.

  22. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:36 pm 22.MrQ said …

    DBD,
    Congrats. You are absolutely bullet-proof. Anything fired your way which is coated with reason and dripping in logic will never penetrate the jacket you don. You are truly an example of faith in action.

    You reject rational thought, logic, and anything that contradicts your bible. That must mean, I am assuming, that you think Noah’s Ark actually floated (with pairs of ALL Earthly animals aboard) and that the Earth is about 10,000 years old. Correct?

    You have a lot to show those other christians posting here, such as horatio (a true born again). He may need a swift kick in the pants from you and a lesson in TRULY understanding the bible…He claims the Earth is billions of years old.

    BTW: When you state- “if you sense fear, it may be the forthcoming judgement to those wicked people who refuse to allow Jesus Christ to save them from hell.” then you misunderstand my first statement in post #12. I have no fear of any deity or prophet or devil or holy ghost…etc. And I don’t or can’t see Jesus in toast. I was just pointing out that you are trying to instill god into people’s lives using the well rehearsed “fire and brimstone” method.

  23. on 17 Mar 2011 at 8:45 pm 23.TGHO said …

    @20 DBD,

    Hard to need something which doesn’t exist.

    If you’re going to pray for me, please make sure to include Wotan, Zeus, Allah, Shiva and Bhuddha. Don’t want to put all my eggs in the one basket. Thanks!

  24. on 17 Mar 2011 at 9:09 pm 24.TGHO said …

    @18 Oort Cloud,

    Except we’ve directly observed the Oort Cloud. No one has ever directly observed your god/being.

  25. on 17 Mar 2011 at 10:02 pm 25.sonofapreacherman said …

    Lalalalala

    Hickory Dickory Dock
    god failed to clean my clock
    The clock struck nine and I’m just fine
    I think I’ll have a glass of wine

    Damned? I’m damned?! HAHAHAHAHAHA
    Nope!
    I have no fear, for I simply know that I know that I know there is no god, and I know that those of you who still believe in a god are consummate fools. Go ahead and waste your lives believing in all that ugly tripe, but keep your foolishness to yourselves already. My only regret is that, as death day arrives for each of you believers, none of you will retain your consciousness long enough to realize how foolish you’ve been to have wasted your lives chasing shepherds’ tales. You all deserve to rot in hell for spreading lies, bigotry and fear, but I’m not cruel enought to wish that fate upon anyone even if hell actually existed.

  26. on 18 Mar 2011 at 3:12 am 26.Horatiio said …

    TGHO

    LOL!, this must be so embarrassing for you (well, maybe you are use to it). The oort cloud is a hypothesized spherical cloud of comets. It has never been observed

    Ypu don’t know the difference between fact and fiction do you TGHO?

  27. on 18 Mar 2011 at 3:23 am 27.TGHO said …

    @26 Horatiio,

    Not heard of 90377 Sedna then, I assume?

  28. on 18 Mar 2011 at 5:42 am 28.sonofapreacherman said …

    To Oort Cloud 18:

    You also think far too much of yourself. This goes for DBD and others around here as well who puff out their chests and make overly officious-sounding proclamations about the authority and righteousness of god, Jesus, and the lord, quoting various scriptures to back up absurd doctrines and tired old dogmata. I know I’ve sounded a bit juvenile in the last couple of comments I’ve posted, but I’m making a point here. My tone may have seemed frivolous, but my message was dead serious. Your religious assertations are false and offensive to all logic and humanity. Your faith is detrimental to everything that is right and good in this world.

    I may have sounded silly in some of my previously posted comments, but you theists who post comments here are just plain ridiculous. Pontificate all you want about the lord your god and about not being disgraced by the accusations of others. Preach about judgement day until the proverbial cows come home. Invoke all the authority of the Bible which you can muster, but you can’t change the fact that you are a disgrace to sentient beings everywhere. Do not deceive yourselves. You not only sound stupid, you are stupid. End of story.

    I grew up being brainwashed by religious fanatics like you people. I was given pat answers to the serious questions I asked as a growing child, answers just like those which you so frequently troll out in your comments on this blog. The stuff you preach employs a plethora of circular reasoning. It advocates faith “or else” and it promotes a mindset of trusting and obeying without question. My elderly parents have retained their faith to this very day. I love them, but they are fools to the core. I can only pity them now.

    I chose to educate myself instead. It was frightening at first to use my brain and to question everything I had ever known. My exposure to the real world began with my education in mathematics, physics and the medical sciences during my years at university. It continued during my internship and residency, on the job and in ongoing postgraduate educational endeavors down through the years.

    Formal education, professional experiences and life in general have all played vital roles in my journey out of the darkness and bondage otherwise known as fundamentalist Christianity. I was well into my thirties before I had finally relinquished all remnants of fear and doubt about letting go of god. Today at 50 years of age I live joyfully and with a sense of inner peace, a spirit borne of the freedom and confidence I found in higher education and the relentless pursuit of expanded knowlege.

    I can say today without fear or sorrow that there is no god. I have true inner peace, and I have long ago come to terms with my own mortality. I am staid in my knowledge, and I am unspeakably grateful to no longer be chained to the selfishly petty and vindictive false god of Christianity.

  29. on 18 Mar 2011 at 8:17 am 29.Severin said …

    11 DBD

    You are in permanent contradiction.
    God “defeated” Satan, yet Satan is still doing his bad deeds. What a “defeat” was it?

    Jesus “saved” those who WANTED to be saved!
    People used their free will to decide whether to accept Christian god or not, same BEFORE and AFTER Jesus died.
    If he wanted to save those who WANTED to be saved, wasn’t it good enough to keep spreading his religion the way he already did, by preaching, for example?
    To keep INFORMING people about choices he offered, without killing himself?

    “Jesus didn’t die for nothing. You call yourself nothing?“
    So, it seems that Jesus had in mind my “soul” too!?

    Let’s say that Jesus gave some “freedom of choice” to people who KNEW something about him and his “deeds”: ladies and gentlemen, please make your choice: follow me, in which case you will be saved, or do not follow me, in which case you will burn in hell!
    Fine!
    That “dilema” finally, after 2000 years, came to me, and I can make my choice.
    Fine!
    But, what about some 500,000,000 other people living on earth at the very moment he performed his “sacrificing”?
    Your Jesus NEGLECTED THEM ALL!
    Your Jesus, obviously, took („called them“) THEM ALL FOR NOTHING!
    He never gave them any oportunity to KNOW anything about him!
    Poor people had NO choices! They just were never INFORMED about choices Jesus offered!
    Poor people from China, India, Indonesia, Australia, Americas…, knew NOTHING about Jesus and about possibility to be “saved” by accepting him!
    They had to wait for many centuries to get first information about Jesus (this information came to them on blades of sabres, but let’s leave it for future debates)!
    Many generations of those poor people had NO CHOICE but to believe what they already believed, thus being LOST, UNSAVED…probably in hell.

    Very clumsy from a god! Who can believe he was an “all loving”, if he just forgot (or, worse: NEGLECTED) majority of his “children” on earth, and decided to “save” less than 0.2 % of total poplation of earth.

    He had in mind my “soul” 2000 years after his death, but FORGOT/NEGLECTED hundreds of millions of HIS CHILDREN who lived on earth at the very same moment he lived!

    And you expect me to respect such a dark, illogical, probably very bad tempered and obviously an EVIL personality? A racist?
    Or, if he was not evil, he was obviously an idiot!
    You expect me to respect some “allmighty” who did not KNOW there were other people to be “saved” on earth?
    Thanks, but no thanks.

  30. on 18 Mar 2011 at 8:33 am 30.Severin said …

    11 DBD
    “There is NO COMMON SENSE in Jesus Christ’s sacrifices.”

    I agree!
    Jesus (=god!) is the only god ever, who sacrificed himself to himself.
    In all other religion PEOPLE scrfice something to god(s) to induce their good will to help them (people): hunt, harvest, rain…
    Christian god was the ONLY god who sacrificed himself to himself.

    It is not difficult to understand! It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand!

  31. on 18 Mar 2011 at 8:43 am 31.Severin said …

    2 DBD
    “No christian is delusional.”

    You avoid answering questions you dont like!

    Are Muslims delusional?

  32. on 18 Mar 2011 at 1:05 pm 32.A Romantic said …

    90377 Sedna is not the Oort cloud. It is classified as a scattered object. The Oort cloud is still a mystery not yet discovered.

    Preacherman,

    Nobody listens to an individual who has an ax to grind. You had a bad experience and that is too bad. There are actually millions of us who follow God, not a religion, willingly and are VERY happy. Get a grip, get some counseling and get all the bitterness behind you.

    Just some friendly advice.

  33. on 18 Mar 2011 at 1:35 pm 33.MrQ said …

    Mr/Mrs Romantic #32

    90377 Sedna is not the Oort cloud. It is classified as a scattered object. The Oort cloud is still a mystery not yet discovered.

    But does it not provide tantalizing visual clues and evidence to it’s existence? Such as comets and Sedna? Now apply the same logic and thinking to god and your second sentence becomes “The god is still a mystery not yet discovered.” There’s more evidence for the Oort Cloud, sorry to say.

  34. on 18 Mar 2011 at 1:56 pm 34.DBD said …

    To everyone on this forum:

    I have gone through a change as a result of speaking to all of you and would like to ask for your forgiveness. I heard a word from God, but I didn’t completely understand it until I attempted to do it. I must admit, that I was embracing a gospel of condemnation as MrQ pointed out, rather than a gospel of grace. I saw myself as a christian and I saw you all as atheists, but instead I was supposed to see us all as humans and discuss the word of God from an experiential christian/humanist point of view. So, my responses below are an attempt to reconcile that new revelation knowlege I have gained.

    I used to be a liar, but I am no longer a liar because of Jesus. I am presenting arguments against strongly held negative beliefs. Any choice to NOT believe in God arises from a decision to refuse the presence of God. But, there still remains a responsibility for any sin done and a punishment for any disobedience of God’s commandments.

    God helps me to NOT be afraid of anything. See I don’t have fears because I believe in God’s word. I’m not arrogant, but I am blessed and highly favored of the Lord. The Holy Spirit within me reveals knowledge to me that man does not understand. I used to be only reliant on man’s, the world’s, satan’s, his demons words and thoughts, but now I am only reliant on God’s words and thoughts. As I take on God’s words, I reformulate my thoughts, which allows me to involuntarily have good feelings (not bad ones anymore). Those good feelings cause me to make good decisions. Those decisions are indeed, NOT based on “the laws man has imposed on [me].” Those good decisions will cause me to take the correct actions. Those correct actions when done over and over again, will cause me to habitually do the God approved right things, so I will form the right habits. Upon forming the right habits, my character will be changed. With a new character, I arrive at a new destination.

    For example, I used to believe that I was alone. I didn’t have a spouse and I was living by myself. Those negative thoughts brought on feelings of sadness whenever I wasn’t around my friends. I made decisions to have a lot of friends who were needing company too, so we became dependant on each other. Those dependency actions yielded habits in which anytime someone wanted me to do something with them, I never judged whether I could or should do it, but I went for the sake of being around people. My character was one that would be easily influenced by others if they offered me a friendship. This caused me to arrive at destinations that included for example, wasting money on activities that I did not want to spend money on or neglecting my responsibilities just to be around people. I didn’t like my destinations, so I wanted to change my character, so that I would not being easily influenced by others if they offered me a friendship. But, in order to change my character, I wanted to change my habits, by not doing anything that any of my friends wanted to do at anytime. But, in order to change my habits, I wanted to change my actions, so that I didn’t depend on my friends. But, in order to change my actions, I wanted to change my decisions, so that I didn’t want to befriend anybody that came along just to have company. But in order to change my decisions, I wanted to change my feelings, so that I wasn’t sad whenever I wasn’t around my friends But then, I was at a stand still, because feelings are involuntary. When no one was around me for long periods of time, I felt sad. How could I change feelings of sadness. The Holy Spirit began a work in me, telling me that I needed to focus on God, not on myself in order to solve my problems. I eventually realized that I had to change the words that voluntarily entered my mind. I needed God’s words to enter my mind. In Hebrews 13:5, “God has said, ‘Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.’” Those words got me thinking that even though physically, I am alone, spiritually I am never alone. And of course from there, my feelings changed where I wasn’t sad anytime I wasn’t around friends for an extended period of time because I could always talk with God and walk with God. In prayer, I reached new spiritual dimensions that I never encountered in the physical realm. I now have a desire to know God more as Moses did. And then of course my changed feelings led to changed decisions which led to changed actions and so on… So, what happened here?

    2 Corinthians 10:3-6 states “We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do. We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ. And after you have become fully obedient, we will punish everyone who remains disobedient.”

    I had to knock down negative strongholds of thinking that caused me to have awful feelings and ultimately affected my destination in life. What is a stronghold? A stronghold is a frame of thinking that is constructed like a house; it has a bathroom, kitchen with utensils in it. It is elaborate constructed thoughts. So, a negative strongholds are elaborate constructed thoughts that do not rely on God and His word, while positive strongholds are elaborate constructed thoughts that do rely on God and His word. We all come into this world being taught negative strongholds from our families, friends, media, schools, communities, and so on.

    Anti-Theist, I’m here because “I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me–the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.” Acts 20:24

    MrQ, thank you for “pointing out that [I was] trying to instill God into people’s lives using the well rehearsed [gospel of condemnation] method” rather than the gospel of grace method. Now, I know the distinction. You gave me a prophetic message from God, whether you know it or not. Bless you for that! Also, I want to point out that it is not true that I am not using reason and logic. In fact, everything I have said is logical. However, my logic is based on different axioms, since logic entails the declaration of axioms which are statements that are understood to be true without verification. One’s choice of axioms can impact the way a decision is made. If a person who does not believe in God chooses certain axioms that are only based on five senses without the use of faith, they are assuming that their axioms always produce the MOST logical results. But if that person’s initial axioms are false, then, all of the premises that follow will also be false. Namely if faith is necessary to know God and a person chooses NOT to rely on faith, then their premises will also be false. So, just understand your position versus my position. Both of us utilize logic, but my logic includes faith and the five senses as an initial axiom, while your logic only includes the five senses as an initial axiom. Our premises that result will differ, but the question is who is right?

    I believe in all of the scriptures, but as I said before, since I have chosen to utilize my faith as an additional sixth sense which is capable of probing the spiritual realm, I realize that there are some spiritual aspects of the bible that will never be fully explained using only the five senses. Just like an analog-to-digital converter is needed to convert an inputted analog voltage or current to a digital signal, so is FAITH via God’s word the converter needed to convert an inputted physical reality to a spiritual reality. How is it that for example, “Noah’s Ark actually floated (with pairs of ALL Earthly animals aboard) and that the Earth is about 10,000 years old”? Faith converts a spiritual reality into a physical one.

  35. on 18 Mar 2011 at 2:12 pm 35.DBD said …

    TGHO, God does exist, but the question is will we admit to it? When we admit to it then, we will find a need for Him. I will not include false gods or idols in my prayer, that’s blasphemy. I’m prejudiced; I don’t support equal opportunity of false gods. LOL! There is only ONE TRUE GOD! Hallelujah! He is the creator of both heaven and earth and humans. Praise be unto Him for seeing me and you fit for living life! Amen. If you’re here TGHO, God wants to have a relationship with you. You are not on this earth by accident. God has a plan for you and sees you as special and significant. There is a point to life. You’ll learn it WHEN you find God!

    sonofapreacherman, I think I’m wise, but I’m not. Only God is wise. I learned that in order to be wise, I needed to become a fool. It is written in 1 Corinthians 3:18-23, “Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.”

    The origin of foolishness is clearly understood in Romans 1:18-23,25 which states “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.”

  36. on 18 Mar 2011 at 2:45 pm 36.DBD said …

    Severin, the DEFEAT of Satan was to allow humans to have a choice to have a relationship with God again. Satan is jealous of how God loves humans. It was first depicted in Genesis when Satan put a wrench in God’s plan to have a relationship with Adam and Eve. But revelation, reveals Jesus Christ to the world and how through Jesus Christ our relationship is renewed with God if we choose it. The end of the book of revelation in the bible depicts humans who are back in relationship with God again without Satan and the wicked people who trusted in him rather than God.

    God did inform people of the choices offered, but without Jesus they were eternally damned because God’s high moral standards are too high for humans to reach by themselves. So, Jesus reconciled the two. God wanted relationship with humans who were morally lower than himself, but due to the nature of His moral highness, it was impossible for us to reach. For example, no matter how hard you try to jump, you could never reach the top of the Empire State Building using your own strength. But Jesus was the conduit, he became a human but is also God. He came down to human standards to take our hands and lead us to God. Back to our example, although you can’t jump to the top of the Empire State Building from the ground floor, you can take the elevator which comes down to ground level and brings you to the top of the Empire State Building. Jesus is our elevator to God. Will you take the elevator?

    God loves all souls and all people, but everything happens at an appointed time and everyone has an appointed job by God. Jesus was supposed to minister only to the Jews. Later came Paul who ministered only to the Gentiles. And fast forward to now we have many christians who have gone out and are still going out into all the world to minister to other populations of people. It’s like a neural network. God is the Father of Logic, so God works out His plans logically. God did reveal himself to the Israelites in Exodus and they were scared of Him and didn’t want to approach Him. God was setting it up so that they could one by one visit with Him, but they were too scared of him and instead worshiped a golden calf. So, you see? Jesus didn’t neglect them all. Everything has a season and a time and a purpose. God doesn’t want people to afraid to approach Him, that’s why He sent Jesus so that we would have a conduit that was unintimidating to approach God. You really have to read the bible to understand, but before Jesus came, a dirty person who didn’t take a bath would die if in the presence of God. That is because God is light and in Him there is no darkness or dirtiness and so on. Now, if I don’t take a bath, I can still come in the presence of God because Jesus stands between me and God.

  37. on 18 Mar 2011 at 3:38 pm 37.Anti-Theist said …

    You sound like a monkey sucking its own dick…
    Your completely disconnected from society and your self-honoring mastibitorial statements fill me with nausea. You shame us all, just by being human.I hope you wake up before you hurt yourself or someone else.

  38. on 18 Mar 2011 at 9:22 pm 38.sonofapreacherman said …

    To A Romantic 32:

    I have no axe to grind nor am I bitter today. I make no bones about calling out bullcrap whenever I see it, however, and you are both rude and full of bull. Your advice was hardly friendly in tone.

    I was raised not in a religion but in a church called Assembly of God. My father was the pastor. I was raised to believe in the holy trinity, and I was brainwashed into willingly accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I was taught that I had a personal relationship with him and that as long as I maintained that salvation through repentance, prayer, and a mindset to abstain from sin, I could consider myself to be born again through the grace and shed blood of Jesus Christ.

    Don’t try to lecture me about the difference between following a religion and worshipping god. I know the difference. I also know that argument is a tired old little tool used by evangelical and fundamentalist Christians to differentiate themselves from Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism (such as Episcopalian). People like you take pride in thinking that their relationship with god is somehow more genuine, more sincere, more meaningful and more life-changing than that of members in other sects of Christianity. I advise you to check your pride, check your intelligence, and check your snarky attitude. Self-righteous Christians are just about the ugliest thing this world has ever seen.

    I haven’t made it a habit over the years to put my two cents out into the world. I’m not certain how long I’ll even stick around here. You are free to listen to what I have to say, or you can ignore me. I honestly don’t care. I only hope that even one person might take the time to reconsider their belief in god, and I hope in some small way I may have helped in that process. I have faith in humanity and in the inherent goodness of mankind. I believe that, when presented with the absurdity of their false beliefs, some people do have the capacity to accept new information and improve themselves through education. This is where I am coming from. I apologize to those who are offended by my abruptness of speech, but I do not apologize for the message I have given.

    To DBD 34 and 35:

    Thank you for at least trying to let go of that attitude of religious condemnation. I noticed, and I appreciate it.

  39. on 18 Mar 2011 at 11:20 pm 39.TGHO said …

    @32 A Romantic,

    Bzzzt!

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90377_Sedna)

    Jury is still out, but there is arguments for both sides.

  40. on 18 Mar 2011 at 11:36 pm 40.TGHO said …

    @34 & 35 DBD,

    I’m glad that your theology helps you cope in this world and to get along in life. That’s fine, it doesn’t bother me – as long as you don’t expect anyone else to agree with you or your beliefs.

    I don’t see any evidence supporting the existence of the supernatural, which includes divine beings of any sort. I’ve been alive for many long years now, and I’ve not yet encountered any reason to be religious. My life is good, I’m happy, and I enjoy myself.

    You can pray or do whatever you want, I am not going to start believing in any god without some solid, scientific evidence.

    And I’ll stand against you and your kind if you try to enforce your beliefs on others. That includes trying to make laws to change how people are treated based upon your beliefs.

  41. on 19 Mar 2011 at 10:01 pm 41.DBD said …

    TGHO:

    You said “And I’ll stand against you and your kind if you try to enforce your beliefs on others. That includes trying to make laws to change how people are treated based upon your beliefs.”

    From this statement, I ascertain that you do not want to be bound, but free.

    But before that you said, “I am not going to start believing in any god without some solid, scientific evidence.”

    From this statment, you sound like you are bound in your beliefs by scientific evidence. Now, don’t get me wrong as a scientific reseacher and engineer, I understand the importance of scientific evidence.

    In a sermon by TD Jakes, he said the following:

    “[God] does not debate the scientific community because who God is cannot be explained, it must be revealed. If it were to be explained, then God is intellectualized. And if God is intellectualized and explainable, then He couldn’t be just because some people would not have the IQ to comprehend what He explained, so God says I will not intellectualize who I am, I will come to you by faith and I will reveal myself on your level. It would not be fair for God to be explained. Little children might not understand Him. People with learning differences might have difficulty comprehending Him. People with varying IQs would not be just and on an equal platform because if you were smarter, you could understand Him better and if you understood Him better, you would have more than me and it wouldn’t be just because you came here with more intellect than I have. So, God said rather than go that way, I will just reveal myself.”

    God reveals himself on the level you’re at. Notice the comments I’ve placed in this forum. If you read them carefully, you’ll find that the answer to your request is included in all of my comments. You want scientific evidence. Then use your ability to observe via your eyes and see what I’ve written, so that you’ll understand. Learning how to understand God is one of the most difficult tasks I’ve ever had to complete in my whole entire life. But, God lives inside of me, so it makes the task doable.

    Christianity is NOT ONLY about the religious right, fighting against abortion or preventing homosexuals from being married. Christianity is also about reconciling those on the religious right with the religious left, religious up, and religious down. It’s also about helping homosexuals to obtain their God-given right to marriage and protecting the democratic rights of those who feel they have a right to choose abortion as well as helping everyone to understand how a child is a blessing from God. God accepts everyone, whether they be bigots, racists, activists, drug addicts, homo or hetero or asexual, mentally stable and mentally unstable, rich and poor, scientists and laymen etc. The reason why christians are taking a stance of imposing THEIR LAWS, NOT GOD’S LAWS on society is because we are entering the last days. God told us in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

    You see, we need you on God’s team, helping the majority of christians to understand another view of God, the one the God has placed on your heart.

  42. on 19 Mar 2011 at 10:45 pm 42.TGHO said …

    @41 DBD,

    As I’ve mentioned before, I’m not going to become a theist without some rock-solid, scientific evidence supporting the existence of the supernatural. So far, I am yet to encounter any. Your posts contain a lot of quotes and bible passages but no actual data.

  43. on 20 Mar 2011 at 12:24 am 43.DBD said …

    TGHO,

    I pray that you will realize just how much you are limiting yourself in your knowledge about God. By attempting to probe a spiritual God with physical tools in order to aquire physical and scientific evidence, you are always going to hit a brick wall. Have you heard of the Heisenberg Uncertanty Principle in Quantum Mechanics? It’s like trying to know the location and momentum of an electron at the same time. You just can’t do it. When you know the location with great certainty, you lose information about the momentum. If you know the momentum with great certainty, you lose information about the location. It is the same with God. You will lose information about God if you try to know Him utilizing your physical senses with great certainty. This will happen because God is Spirit and from the spiritual realm, came this physical reality that we currently exist in. Romans 4:17 talks about how God calls into existence the things that do not exist. This physical realm did not exist, until God called it into existence as explained in Genesis. God gave us faith, so that we could relate to Him and do as He does on this earth. If you would only realize the magnitude of the power that you are passing up on, you would change your mind set. I think you as well as all christians would greatly benefit from your formulating a relationship with God and understanding this one key concept. Basically, the very thing that you are holding onto, sound scientific evidence, is the very thing you must let go of in order to know God. This is only the beginning. Trust me, I’ve been where you now are. I’ve had to give up a lot in order to know God better.

  44. on 20 Mar 2011 at 10:19 am 44.TGHO said …

    @43 DBD,

    Unfortunately, with respect to a god or divine being, the Uncertainty Principal is towards the end of the proposition. We’ve not even gotten to the point of showing that the supernatural exists yet. You need to show that “spiritually” is actually viable and that the concept of a “soul” is valid. There’s many steps after that one; we’ve not even started the discussion around which god is potentially the one actually in existence.

    You keep quoting the bible, as if you think it will have an effect on me. I’ve read it, it’s a dull fairy tale. There’s very little in there which is factual or reliable. You might want to try something else. :)

  45. on 20 Mar 2011 at 12:28 pm 45.DBD said …

    TGHO,

    He has purposed you to show that He exists; He has purposed you to PROVE HIM. He has purposed me to tell you what His message is to you. It is then up to you to take God’s message and decide whatever it is you want to get from it. You be the scientist and use the scientific method to devise an experiment to prove or disprove God’s word. By the way, no one has disproved the existence of God, so it is your responsibility to prove Him for yourself. I have only been the “mouthpiece” of God. Since revelation is the power to do what the word says, I’ve been repeating the word of God to you, so that you can obtain revelation. Basically, I’ve been giving you the words, all you have to do is CHOOSE to try them and prove God’s existence in your own life. Once you learn to think like God thinks and say what God says, you will have what God wants you to have. So, to help you on your journey, if you CHOOSE to accept it, “take God’s message and decide whatever it is you want to get from it.” Do the word and prove the existence of God. I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you! Blessings to you in your pursuit of the existence of God.

  46. on 20 Mar 2011 at 7:50 pm 46.TGHO said …

    @45 DBD,

    I choose to reserve judgement until actual evidence arrives. Very happy to keep discussing theology (it is one of my hobbies), but very unlikely to convert to theism without rock solid, scientific evidence.

  47. on 21 Mar 2011 at 9:45 pm 47.DBD said …

    TGHO,

    The last paragraph I wrote still stands. Don’t allow lethargy via your flesh to control you. If you want actual evidence, go get it, don’t wait for it to “arrive”. Would you wait for your mate/spouse to arrive? Would you wait for your house to arrive? Would you wait for your job to arrive? Would you wait for anything that you have that’s worth having to arrive? I don’t think so. I believe that anyone can have anything they want, if they would work hard for it. God said in Matthew 7:7-12, “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.” You have asked for the arrival of actual evidence. Now, you must seek actual evidence. So, seek (look for) it via the steps I described in my previous statement. Once you seek it, you will knock (do something that you need to do) and your actual evidence will arrive. So, get busy!

  48. on 22 Mar 2011 at 3:21 am 48.TGHO said …

    @47 DBD,

    Dude, you need to read some of the other threads here, you’ll note that I’m constantly asking for evidence from the theists who post here (including yourself).

    At this point in time, I’m still yet to see any evidence offed – and I’ve been arguing theology since 1978.

    As I previously noted, the bible isn’t sastifactory as evidence.

  49. on 22 Mar 2011 at 5:30 am 49.DBD said …

    TGHO,

    You are stating that the bible is not satisfactory evidence for proving the existence of God.

    But, do you need physical evidence for everything that you do in this world and in your life? If you need scientific evidence for everything in life, life will become exceedingly difficult if not impossible to live. For example, when you get into your car, and place your key into the ignition and turn the key, you have faith that the car will start. You don’t need any physical evidence to arrive at that belief. You chose to believe what they say about your car is true. In actuality, you don’t know that it will always start up, you just have a belief that it will because of what the world told you and because of what has always worked in the past. You didn’t do a scientific test to judge whether your car would start. Likewise, whenever you sit in the chairs of your house, you have faith that they will hold you up, and never collapse on you. You didn’t need scientific evidence to come to that conclusion. Scientists and engineers would tell you, if you really need to have physical evidence, you would need to ascertain the stress and strain fields and do fracture toughness experiments on that chair. Ordinarily, you do not do that prior to sitting on it. You choose to believe and except the chair will not collapse, thus causing you to fall. Last example, when pilots are flying a plane, they know that they must rely on the gauges and believe that their gauges are accurate. Scientists will tell you that there isn’t always a certainty that those gauges will be accurate when pilots fly that plane. Pilots chose to have belief and faith that those gauges are accurate. And so do the passengers. Passengers just choose to believe that the plane will not crash even though they don’t understand how the plane was made, who the pilots are flying the plane, the gauges on the plane, etc. If you need scientific evidence for flying on a plane, you’ll never get on it.

    Likewise, in order to know God, you must have a belief and faith that his word via the bible is accurate. It is up to each individual to come to the point where they will decide to accept the word just like that individual accepted that their car would start, chair wouldn’t collapse, and plane would fly without scientific testing of each and every one of those items. Only after repeated use and reliance on God’s word in an individual’s life, will an individual have confidence and evidence in the existence of God, just as they have confidence driving their cars, sitting in chairs, and flying a plane. There exists statistics that builds our confidence in the reliability of our chairs, cars, and planes. Likewise you need statistics to build your confidence in the reliability of God and His word. Statistics come from constantly reading God’s word, constantly hearing God’s word, and constantly doing God’s word and seeing the progress and evidence that results. Statistics can also be called faith.

    You want evidence, but in everything I do, I want progress. What can I get from the belief that the chair will not collapse? I get a chair that will allow me to sit, resting my legs. What can I get from the belief that the gauges on a plane are accurate? I have the option of using a mode of transportation that will take me long distances in a short amount of time. What can I get from the belief that God’s word is true? I have the option of living this life of mine with help from God and the option of forming a relationship with the Creator of it all. Do you want to live your life to the fullest or do you want to be in lack? The choice is yours.

  50. on 22 Mar 2011 at 3:10 pm 50.sonofapreacherman said …

    ^ Another sermon: Yawn.

  51. on 22 Mar 2011 at 6:49 pm 51.DPK said …

    I would propose an experiment to DBD. I will climb a 20′ ladder with a bowling ball and express my faith in gravity that when I release the ball it will fall to the ground. He will stand directly underneath and pray to god to make the ball remain suspended in mid-air.
    Both of us have faith in things we cannot see and do not understand. I cannot begin to tell you what gravity “is”, but I have a reasonable faith based on observable evidence. I do not know for certain that the ball will fall downward when I release it, but I am reasonably certain it will.
    BDB will have faith in a loving god who looks out for him and answers his prayers, as promised in the bible.
    I can reasonably predict one of two outcomes to the test, and the ball remaining in mid-air is not one of them. Either the ball will drop and injure or possibly kill DBD, or he will jump out of the way when I let go.
    That is the difference between a reasonable faith and an irrational one. So irrational, that even the one professing it doesn’t really believe it.

  52. on 22 Mar 2011 at 7:02 pm 52.TGHO said …

    @49 DBD,

    Yes, the bible is not satisfactory evidence.

    Yes, physical evidence is required in this physical world – a theist needs to provide evidence of the supernatural as a starting point (as I have already mentioned).

    Understanding how a chair or car works is based upon physical evidence – the item functioned as required in the past, and expectations are that it will continue to function as expected in the future.

    My “choice” is to continue to request actual, physical, scientific evidence from theists.

  53. on 22 Mar 2011 at 7:26 pm 53.Horatiio said …

    “I’m constantly asking for evidence from the theists who post here”

    Yes, much like the horse taken to the water who refused to drink. This just proves you refuse to accept the evidence presented. LOL, I mean you know how many books are written proving the argument for God?

    1978, lol! It just proves you are afraid you are wrong.

  54. on 22 Mar 2011 at 7:32 pm 54.DPK said …

    I have not heard of even one book that proves the argument for god. That’s amazing news! Please provide me with a title, as I find it incredible that a book that actually proved the existence of god would not already be known world wide!
    Or, did you actually mean to say “how many books are written ATTEMPTING to prove the argument for god”?
    That’s different.

  55. on 22 Mar 2011 at 7:42 pm 55.TGHO said …

    @53 Horatiio,

    Like DPK said, please provide this evidence.

  56. on 22 Mar 2011 at 9:48 pm 56.sonofapreacherman said …

    There is no proof for god. God does not exist. End of story. You can blather, argue, explain, rationalize and pontificate ’til pigs fly, but these things are only diversionary tactics and do not constitute valid proof. Theists: produce your god here and now. When you find that you can’t do it, either admit you are wrong about the existence of your god or button your lips. Thank you.

  57. on 22 Mar 2011 at 9:58 pm 57.DBD said …

    TGHO and sonofapreacherman:

    Check out this website: http://www.amazingfacts.org/Television/ProphecySeminars/MillenniumofProphecy/tabid/82/Default.aspx

    Doug Batchelor, a former atheist, holds a seminar presenting your evidence.

    Start with the first seminar called the The Millennial Man, which reviews Daniel Chapter 2 of the bible and describes how it has already been fulfilled.

  58. on 22 Mar 2011 at 10:26 pm 58.Observer said …

    This video is torture- I can feel my IQ dropping.

    This is infinitely better:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivCoqsY0fh8

    It is also only the first part. Dig around and you can find the rest.

    Why are Rabbis so much smarter than Evangelical Christians? There are many answers starting with the requirement of a legitimate curriculum.

  59. on 23 Mar 2011 at 3:41 am 59.sonofapreacherman said …

    I was fed the book of Daniel during my formative years. I’m soooooo not convinced. Produce your god.

  60. on 23 Mar 2011 at 4:36 am 60.DBD said …

    sonofapreacherman:

    “Either sin will keep you from the Bible or the Bible will keep you from sin.” -by Moody

  61. on 23 Mar 2011 at 7:33 am 61.sonofapreacherman said …

    “ ‘Either sin will keep you from the Bible or the Bible will keep you from sin.’ -by Moody”

    Sin has not kept me from the Bible, so apparently I am sin free. I’ve read the book cover to cover more than once. I’m unimpressed with the Bible, but I can quote most any verse on demand. I guess that’s to be expected when one’s father is a Bible thumper.

    The Bible has not kept from sin either. I don’t accept the concept of sin, but I do believe some acts are morally wrong and others are morally good. Situational ethics can come into play from time to time as well. All that being said, I have done things I am not proud of, things which I consider to be wrong. I check myself when I feel my behavior is incorrect, and I constantly strive to be a better person.

  62. on 23 Mar 2011 at 10:12 am 62.TGHO said …

    @57 DBD,

    Biblical prophecy? The bible is not valid as evidence, as I previously mentioned. It’s a fairy tale. 90% of the bible is made up wishful thinking, including any prophecies included within the text. None of the prophecies written in the bible came to pass as written, some were self-fulfilled (such as the Dispora).

  63. on 23 Mar 2011 at 2:16 pm 63.DPK said …

    Hor… We are still waiting for even one of those books that proves the existence of god. You said there were many of them. Shouldn’t be so hard now.

  64. on 23 Mar 2011 at 7:51 pm 64.DBD said …

    sonofapreacherman:

    I’m not impressed that you’ve read the bible. A 4-year old can read the bible. God never asked you to read the bible. He told you to STUDY! STUDYING INCLUDES WAY MORE THAN READING! When a person STUDIES, they UNDERSTAND AND LEARN TO PUT IT INTO PRACTICE. If you stopped at reading, now I understand why you’re NOT a christian today. Laziness prevents one to study! STUDYing takes time and effort and brain power! Don’t allow sin to keep you from the Bible.

  65. on 23 Mar 2011 at 8:14 pm 65.DPK said …

    Yes preacherman… it is YOUR fault. Not only must you study the bible, it helps to have someone else explain to you what god REALLY means when he instructs you on things like how to properly beat your slaves and when it is permissible to sell your daughter into prostitution or the proper way to slaughter a goat and burn it’s flesh so it make a smell pleasing to god.
    When my kids were little, whenever I wanted to teach them an important live lesson, like “Don’t eat rat poison.” or “Look both ways before you cross the street.” I would always write it down in a foreign language and bury it somewhere in the yard and see if they found it. For even more fun I would make it in a form of a puzzle they had to figure out. It was so much fun, and I always figured, if they didn’t want to work hard enough to find out what I was trying to tell them, well then they deserved to get hit by a car or die of rat poison. Man, I loved those kids so much… it was so much fun watching them fight over what daddy really meant!
    Hey DBD…. have you studied the Koran? Not read it, studied it?? I doubt it, because if you had, you would be a Muslim today. If you don’t believe me, ask any devote Muslim, they will tell you I am right.
    The problem with you is you can’t step outside of the brainwashing created by your own delusion to see how ridiculous your statements are. If the bible seems ridiculous and contradictory to you… just keep at it until you get like us and are able to just completely ignore all the bullshit and only focus on the good stuff.

  66. on 23 Mar 2011 at 9:03 pm 66.A said …

    “I can quote most any verse on demand.”

    How about I Hezekiah 3:27

  67. on 23 Mar 2011 at 9:58 pm 67.Severin said …

    64 DBD
    “When a person STUDIES, they UNDERSTAND AND LEARN TO PUT IT INTO PRACTICE.“

    I found the verse in which god directly orders us to stone people who work on sabbath.
    I studied it, and studied, and studied, AND studied…, then I concluded:
    a) I can not put that in practice! I can’t stone anyone, it is against my nature
    b) It is forbidden by law (in my country), to stone people, so I could get in jail if I stone someone, even if would be able to
    c) I understood nothing, I have learned nothing from that specific verse

    Then I studied the verse in which god directly orders us to stone non-virgin brides on the treshold of their fathers.
    Conclusion: same as above

    Then I looked for verses that I might put in practice, according to my nature and according to law, but could not find any.
    One that could have sense orders me to love my neighbour.
    Well, my neighbour is an asshole, who beats his dog, and I can’t love him.

    Is something wrong with me?

  68. on 23 Mar 2011 at 11:36 pm 68.DBD said …

    Severin:

    You studied two of the laws of sin and death.
    You studied one law of the Spirit.

    Good, now STUDY THIS:

    Romans 8:1-2

    Therefore, there is now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    What does this mean to you in light of your past studies?

  69. on 23 Mar 2011 at 11:43 pm 69.DPK said …

    Uh.. can I guess?
    All powerful god gave us the laws of sin and death (uh… where in the bible are they called that? Must have missed it) and then all knowing god changed his mind and said “forget all that crap! WHAT was I THINKING? Dats all CRAZY talk.”

    “Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete.”
    “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.”

    Hmmm.. heaven and earth.. still here.. well, earth at least.. all I can really speak to.

  70. on 24 Mar 2011 at 7:20 am 70.Severin said …

    Thak you, DBD ,but the verses you offered are completely unclear to me.

    Soemone there offers me to “set me free from the laws of sin and death”?
    But I feel free already!
    I never violated any law (maybe with car, yes), I never ofended anyone (not to mention that I never stole something or killed someone), I like people and people like me, I live a nice, joyful, but responsible life…I feel EXCELLENT!
    I would consider any attempt to be “set free” from anything, against my will, a violation of my personality.
    I DO NOT NEED help!

    I can not be “set free” of “laws of sin”, because I do not recognize the concept of “sin”.
    What IS “sin”?
    Your ugly old book is inapplicable in my case. I do not need it.

  71. on 24 Mar 2011 at 11:47 am 71.sonofapreacherman said …

    Uhhh, DBD, I guess you haven’t paid a bit of attention to my posts which have detailed some of my history. Of course I’ve done more than just read the Bible. My father is a minister. I was required to study the Bible for 18 years, and I was coerced into attending Southeastern University after I had completed high school. My life has been steeped in theology.

    My mother’s side of the family has a long history in the Christian ministry. My grandfather founded a church. My great grandfather founded a church. My late uncle was a pastor whose legacy is a massive thriving church in a major urban center in the upper midwest. He also founded several churches in Central and South America. One of my cousins is currently a prestigious professor at a well-known Bible college in the central part of the USA. Denominations represented include the Assemblies of God and the Church of the Nazarene

    My father’s side of the family likewise has a long history of service to the Christian faith. My aunt was a minister. Two cousins are pastors. Two other cousins are key players in Operation Mobilization International. My father founded multiple churches. We traveled around the world for 3.5 years giving away books, Bibles and blankets while preaching Christianity to the masses. Denominations represented on my father’s side of the family include the Assemblies of God and the Free Methodist Church of North America.

    Throughout my youth I was required to attend Bible studies, prayer meetings, Sunday morning and evening worship services, Wednesday evening church services, Sunday School, Christian retreats, revival meetings, missionary services, missions trips, Vacation Bible school, 3 weeks of annual church summer camp and on and on. You name it, I had to do it. I had to participate. I had to set the example for all the other kids in church. There was no way for me to zone out or escape any of the teachings, preachings, lessons, studies, training seminars, films, days of fasting, weeks of prayer, watch night services, councils and conventions.

    I am convinced there is no god. It is not for lack of understanding. It is not for lack of knowledge. It is not for lack of exposure to the so-called life-changing call of God’s Holy Spirit. It is not for lack of conviction. It is not for lack of seeking. It is not for a lack of open-heartedness. It is because I HAVE seen, heard, prayed, waited, worshipped and experienced the entire realm of fundamentalist born-again Christianity. I gave it my all. I sincerely believed. I committed my life to Jesus Christ, and I finally began to realize after well over twenty years of living, breathing and feeling it that it’s all a crock of utter shit. Another 20+ years have passed since that first revelation, and I am more convinced than ever that there is no god.

    Today I am a successful practicing physician, and I am still convinced there is no god. I am no longer cowed by shame or fear. I no longer disbelieve silently while others freely spread the poison of their faith. There is no god, and I’m not afraid to say it. My life is filled with joy and peace far greater than any I experienced during my life as a Born Again Christian. Today I am free of the lies and intimidation of modern day fundamentalist, Pentecostal and evangelical Christianity.

    There is no god. To date there is no proof upholding the existence of any god. It’s all a big rotten fantasy. End of story.

  72. on 24 Mar 2011 at 1:44 pm 72.Lou said …

    I read another’s comment about the bible that I agree with. He wrote “Nothing like old recycled arguments and claims from a book that was composed over a period of several hundred years by several different authors and then edited by a council of the religious to fulfill both religious and political goals to support ones argument. I prefer data derived through testable, repeatable, and potentially falsifiable hypotheses.”

    Quoting the bible, a book written by people only to support their belief in god, is weaker than presenting no evidence at all. I simply cannot understand quoting the bible as evidence of anything for which there is no other evidence whatsoever. It’s what I see as chosen ignorance (e.g. stupidity). It’s proof that ignorance is bliss.

  73. on 24 Mar 2011 at 4:12 pm 73.sonofapreacherman said …

    Lou said, “It’s proof that ignorance is bliss.”

    Ignorance really IS bliss!

    I have found, however, that there is more bliss in the freedom and knowledge of atheism than in the bondage of religious ignorance. I know who and what I am. I know I am mortal. I know I have this one opportunity to experience this grand thing we call life. I know I am making it the best that I possibly can. I know I can find joy in everything that I experience.

    I know I have the courage to call a foul when I see it. I know that within me I have the power and wisdom to make good choices and to be a productive member of society contributing to the betterment of mankind along the way. I know I can help others by showing them love, kindness and compassion in my daily life.

    I know I am fully prepared to let go when the wild ride of life is done. I know I’ll have no regrets for the years I have spent living with my eyes wide open. I know that the fear of god no longer controls me like it did when I lived in religious ignorance.

  74. on 24 Mar 2011 at 5:21 pm 74.Lou said …

    73.sonofapreacherman said

    “Ignorance really IS bliss!

    I have found, however, that there is more bliss in the freedom and knowledge of atheism than in the bondage of religious ignorance.”

    I agree with you. But the problem is that a religious person claims to receive the same thing from their particular religion. They don’t get bliss from knowledge because they choose to ignore knowledge because they simply can’t comprehend and/or accept evolution, the big bang, and death without an afterlife, and similar ideas that conflict with their “worldview.”

    They have what I call the “religious gene.” They simply can’t accept reality, therefore they cope with it through delusion – deities, god’s will, after-life, intelligent design, etc. Most them can never change. It’s simply impossible for them.

  75. on 24 Mar 2011 at 5:50 pm 75.DBD said …

    Severin,

    You ask a good question. Even christians are completely confused about what sin is because they unfortunately do NOT study the bible as they should. That is why they clobber homosexuals, for example. I WAS in that category too! I am now working to increase my bible studying so that I can be able to know and explain very well what God has said.

    To answer your question, what is sin? 1 John 1:7-10 explains that violation of the light that God has revealed to you is sin and James 1:22-25 explains how people deceive themselves by believing lies to be truth due to rejecting the light that God provides via His word by NOT doing His word. God is light and in Him there is NO DARKNESS at all. follow the glimmer of light shining in your life, not darkness. The way you can distinguish light from darkness is simple. In darkness you are stumbling, unsure of where to go, unsure of what to do, uncertain of the consequences. In the light, you know the next step to take and you are sure of where that next step will lead you. You don’t know the big picture because you are walking by faith, but you do know the next step. You should read and study the passages above, don’t just take my word for it.

    Sonofapreacherman,

    Thanks for taking the time to explain your past to me. Sure, I understand that you have come from an extremely religious heritage. I’m sure from your extensive bible studies, you remember that the Pharisees and Sauducees were fundamentalist religious zealots whom Jesus constantly had to rebuke. Christianity is often times overshadowed by religiousity. There may have been a lot of pain that you incurred from being in such an environment, but don’t take it out on God. God loves all of His children, but He does have a report card to deliver to His children possessing various favorable and unfavorable religious personalities. Read Revelation Chapters 2-3. We are currently in the spiritual age of the Church of Laodicea, but many christians have religious personalities that run the gamut of any of the seven churches listed in Revelation Chapters 2-3.

  76. on 24 Mar 2011 at 6:30 pm 76.Lou said …

    75.DBD said …

    “You should read and study the passages above, don’t just take my word for it.”

    Why not, there’s no difference in accepting the word of an internet stranger as apposed to a fictional book written thousands of years ago by many different men for the purpose of supporting their religious beliefs and philosophy, and that has been translated, amended, and edited many different times by many different people.

    Right, don’t just take DBD’s word for it when you have the bible going for you.

  77. on 24 Mar 2011 at 6:52 pm 77.DBD said …

    Severin,

    I neglected to give you some practical examples of sin. From Romans 8:1-2, we learn that people are bound to the law of sin and death if they walk after the flesh. So, what is flesh/sin? Galatians 5:16-26 explains it all. It also explains how to walk in the Spirit for those who are following Jesus.

    Study this:

    So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

  78. on 24 Mar 2011 at 7:24 pm 78.Anti-Theist said …

    I know not one atheist who even believes that your sins / spirits exist DBD.

  79. on 24 Mar 2011 at 8:38 pm 79.DPK said …

    I live a life that I would best describe as being full of “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

    I don’t believe in supernatural beings and do not accept Jesus as my savior. I don’t have any gods in my life and feel no need for them. I live a moral life based on common sense and decency. I am a good person and have raised 2 good children… without any gods or biblical hocus pocus. So, where does that leave me? You bible says being a good person is not enough, the only path to salvation is accepting Jesus as my savior.

    So, where does that leave me according to your “laws”? Condemned, I assume.

  80. on 24 Mar 2011 at 10:06 pm 80.sonofapreacherman said …

    DBD said, “I’m sure from your extensive bible studies, you remember that the Pharisees and Sauducees were fundamentalist religious zealots whom Jesus constantly had to rebuke. Christianity is often times overshadowed by religiousity.”

    Wow! What is it that you just don’t get?! I’ve already explained to you in great deal how I lived a Christian life which placed the emphasis on spirituality and not on religiosity. I prayed the prayer of salvation, and I repented of my sins whenever I felt that I had fallen short of what my personal savior expected of me. I spent countless hours in humble, prayerful patience on my knees waiting for my god to speak to my heart. I sang hymns of praise and worship with my arms stretched out to the heavens as tears of joy rolled down my face. I sought for over two decades to maintain what I believed was my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Do I have to beat this concept into your head with a rolled up newspaper? Do I have to scream it into your ear with a megaphone? How else can I convince you that I was the antithesis of Pharisee-like religiosity? The truth of the matter is that I was committed with every fiber of my being to my lord and savior, but my lord and savior turned out to be naught but a big fat lie mixed with a whole lot of my own endorphins. My living lord did not exist, and frankly it took me much too long to figure this out. I wasted far too many precious years on a boatload of absolute crap, and I cannot adequately express how grateful I am to finally be free from the imprisonment of false faith, false hope and false promises known as Christianity.

    Reading the Bible passages which you recommend is something I will never do. I do not believe in the validity nor the veracity of your scriptures. I reject your sermons. I am done with your god and your Bible. Stop proselytizing!

  81. on 24 Mar 2011 at 10:47 pm 81.Burebista said …

    DPK

    I believe SOP. Many do fall into a false religion and they convince themselves they have the real thing. Judas was with Jesus 3 years but he was never the real deal. Remember Luke 9 where many came to follow Christ but were unwilling to pay the price. You can only pray they will humble themselves and Christ will reveal himself to them.

    Gods Best

  82. on 24 Mar 2011 at 10:49 pm 82.Burebista said …

    Sorry, that should have been to DBD.

  83. on 25 Mar 2011 at 12:35 am 83.DPK said …

    Good point. You know, I have believed in my heart since about the age of reason 12-14, that there was really no one watching the store and it was all baloney. I guess I can understand someone who has real faith… I just don’t. And saying I do, or pretending I do doesn’t make it real. I never was angry at god, or turned away from him because of some perceived fault… I just became cognizant of the reality that he is imaginary. To me this is simply as obvious as the fact that things fall to the ground when I drop them.
    At the end of things, if there is a god and he is knowing and loving as those who believe say, I can’t imagine he will judge me any harsher for following my heart, and my brain… which he gave me than for those who “believed” out of convenience or simply followed the herd because it was socially acceptable.
    You say that many fall into a false religion and then convince themselves they have the real thing. You do realize that they are saying the EXACT same thing about YOU… right? How do you know you haven’t done exactly that?? Don’t tell me you know in your heart.. they feel exactly the same way… Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, Janes, Druids, Atheists. They all feel in their hearts that they are following the truth.
    The difference is the atheists are the only one who actually have observable evidence and reason on their side. I think that’s a key difference.

  84. on 25 Mar 2011 at 2:12 am 84.DBD said …

    Anti-Theist,

    Not believing in the existence of sin or spirit doesn’t absolve anyone.

    DPK,

    You have two choices!

    sonofapreacherman,

    You may have had religion, but you NEVER had spirituality. Anybody can cry, roll on the floor, jump up and down, raise their arms in the air, and scream! Just ask a 5 year old. But a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ, isn’t for those who faint at STUDYING AND DOING GOD’S WORD. I have memories of my interactions with Christ, just like with a physical person. I’m learning more and more about His personality. I ask Jesus for things and He supplies my needs. I ask Jesus questions and He answers me. He is always with me. Once again, if you can’t read and STUDY and DO God’s word, you’ll never reach an intimate, personal relationship with God. You’ll never know Him. And I don’t care how many times you ask Christ to come into your heart or raise your hands or cry or sing.

    Burebista,

    I concur.

    DPK,

    Things fall to the ground when you drop them due to gravity, but have you or anyone else ever seen gravity? Do you even know why they don’t go accelerating through the ground? That’s due to the electromagnetic force. Have you seen the electromagnetic force? By faith we believe in the existence of those things that we do not perceive with our senses. That includes gravity, the electromagnetic force. Scientists believe in the wave-particle duality of light, but no one has ever seen an actual photon, just light. By faith, I believe in the existence of God, even though I do not yet perceive him with my senses. I have never perceived an idea, but I have had one. I don’t know what love looks like or tastes like, or smells like, or feels like, or sounds like, but I have experienced it. There are many things that we experience, with NO interaction with our senses, but we accept their existence because of our experiences. I’m telling you that if one Studies God’s word and Does God’s word, a person will experience God and know of His existence.

  85. on 25 Mar 2011 at 2:38 am 85.DPK said …

    You are correct. As we have explored in previous posts, we all have faith in things we cannot see or do not fully understand, like gravity, the weak and stong nuclear forces, because we can see good evidence that they are real and we can test them.
    I offer you the same test I proposed before. I will hold a bowling ball 20′ over your head and profess my faith in gravity that it will fall when I release it. You will stand underneath and pray to god in Jesus’ name that the ball remain suspended in the air so that you may avoid injury.
    No matter how great you faith in god is, you will either jump out of the way or have your skull cracked by a bowling ball.
    That is what I mean by a reasonable belief vs an irrational one.
    I don’t doubt your sincerity, but from my point of view your advice sounds much like “continue to force yourself to accept god until the brainwashing takes hold… it may take years, but if you keep telling yourself you believe, eventually you will convince yourself.” That’s how it seems to me anyway. I don’t have a choice. I cannot “believe” what I don’t believe. I just can’t “choose” to believe in something. That is not belief anyway. That is simply lying to yourself. And yes, it is true, if you lie to yourself long enough and hard enough you will eventually believe your own lie.

    “I’m telling you that if one Studies God’s word and Does God’s word, a person will experience God and know of His existence.”

    Ok, I will ask you once again… WHICH god?” Because there are many many others with completely different gods from yours that will tell me the same thing… and they will believe it just as sincerely as you. Don’t you think the ancient Ra worshipers felt the power of god as they were sacrificing virgins on the alter?

  86. on 25 Mar 2011 at 2:58 am 86.DBD said …

    DPK,

    As for your experiment/test. Even though God gave us faith, he didn’t ask for us to abandon our other five senses too! Faith is an extra sixth sense, without it, you wouldn’t have been able to experience love. But, you did use your eyes to see the person you love and so on… It would be foolish to abandon your five senses to use only faith, just like it is foolish to abandon your sense of faith to only rely on your other five senses. Sounds familar?

    The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God the Father of creation, God the Son (Jesus Christ) of redemption, and God the Holy Spirit of regeneration. If you read the bible you’ll find there are many names for God and they all revealed a certain characteristic of God’s. For example, do you know what Jesus’s first name was and what it meant?

  87. on 25 Mar 2011 at 3:39 am 87.DPK said …

    awh.. that’s a real cop-out answer and not deserving of the respect I was beginning to have for you. That’s a rationalization in the worst form. Let’s review:
    You believe that god is all powerful, so suspending a bowling ball is not beyond his powers… I mean he parted the sea and flooded the earth.
    You believe that god loves you.
    You believe that god answers prayers. Jesus tell us so in the bible many times. Whatever you ask of my father in my name… it will be done.
    So, you believe these things, but the reality based part of your brain knows that the ball not falling toward your head is simply not an option, even though god routinely did much more impressive parlor tricks in the bible. Apparently he has no real issue with this.
    So you rationalize your stated belief in order to continue your delusion about god’s existence. And I know you will continue to do so despite my points.

    Again, I ask you HOW you know that Yahwee, the Jewish warrior god of the bible, and his alter egos, Jesus, Holy Spirit, et al… is the RIGHT one. I know you will tell me because he has revealed himself to you. But try to open your mind to this concept… LOTS of other gods have revealed themselves to LOTS of other people who were just as sincere in belief as you are! They have ALL been discarded onto the trash heap of non-existent gods. There are other competing current gods who are diametrically opposed to your god. I assume you think THEY are all bogus… but their followers think YOURS is bogus and they are just as sincere as you are and will describe the SAME spiritual experiences that you do. What if you’re wrong… what if you’re ALL wrong. What if you get to heaven and a really pissed off Ra wants to know why you haven’t sacrificed and virgins? What if it’s Allah and he is pissed about you worshiping Jesus as god! What if it’s Richard Dawkins and he’s laughing his ass off at you?

    Jesus first name… I don’t recall, Yashus or something like that? I don’t know what it means. I don’t care. Biblical trivia and name games hold no meaning for me.

  88. on 25 Mar 2011 at 4:59 am 88.DBD said …

    DPK,

    It is not a cop-out answer.

    John 15:7 states: If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you and continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

    To ask God to do something against His word means that the person is NOT one with God and God’s words does NOT abide in the person. So, to ask God to play your game or to go through your test is against God’s word. Your tactic was already tried before by satan when he tempted Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7, “Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”"

    Once again, STUDY God’s word and DO God’s word and God will reveal himself to you. God sets the rules via His word; you do NOT set any rules, you learn the rules and you follow the rules. God gave you choice to know Him because He LOVES YOU. You may choose to NOT know HIM and NOT know HIS Words, but I wouldn’t recommend that.

    I know God is the right God via His word. His Scriptures reveal Himself to Me. God abides in me and I abide in God. That is why I know Him.

    John 14:19-24 states “Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

    The first name given to Jesus is Emmanuel meaning God is with us.

  89. on 25 Mar 2011 at 8:31 am 89.Severin said …

    DBD
    “It also explains how to walk in the Spirit for those who are following Jesus.”

    I am not following Jesus.

  90. on 25 Mar 2011 at 9:06 am 90.Severin said …

    77 BDB
    “It also explains how to walk in the Spirit for those who are following Jesus.”
    “For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit…”
    “But if you are led by the Spirit,…”

    I do NOT follow Jesus.
    I, especially, don’t feel like “walk in the spirit”, or like being “led by spirit” (whatever it means)
    I don’ even recognize the concept of “spirit”, especially not with a capital “S”.

    If your book applies to ones who do (follow Jesus, are “led by spirit”…), I am NOT the one.

    Thanks, anyway, for your efforts, that, unfortunately, tell me nothing.

  91. on 25 Mar 2011 at 9:21 am 91.Severin said …

    86 DBD
    “Faith is an extra sixth sense, without it, you wouldn’t have been able to experience love.”

    Sorry to say, DBD, that is a big BS!

    I never had any faith, and I did experiance love: to a woman, to my daughter, …

    I can agree that love itself could be “blind” (like faith!), but it has nothing to do with faith.
    It has to do with evolution!

    In my age (I am 68), I use to say to ladies, when talking “love”, that love is a trap of evolution. It is!
    “Love” is in function of mating and care for successors.
    In fact, it is in function of TRANSFERING GENES to next generations.

    Nothig more, nothing less, but it IS nice! It IS well to feel it!

  92. on 25 Mar 2011 at 11:48 am 92.sonofapreacherman said …

    DBD, you are deluded. First you say I was too much into religiosity. Then you say I was too much into spirituality. Let me tell you something: you are too much into yourself! Your prideful and judgemental ways have doomed you to a life of ignorance. Your religious experience is just as false as any I ever had, but you are too stuck on yourself to realize it. Your ability to reason clearly has been compromised by your ego and by your faith. I’m done with you and your circles upon circles of f*cked up reasoning. Your religion is as offensive as you are. My life is whole and complete without your god and without anyone else’s god. I am atheistic without apology, without fear, and without delusion.

    Burebista, open your eyes. Your religion is just as false as mine was. Nearly every person of faith is convinced that their religious belief is the only 100% correct religious belief and that all other religious beliefs are somehow defective. How juvenile is that?! Grow up already.

  93. on 25 Mar 2011 at 1:05 pm 93.Lightning Boy said …

    The Son says”

    “Your prideful and judgemental ways have doomed you to a life of ignorance.”

    And then the Son says”

    “Your religious experience is just as false as any I ever had”

    Paradox of Hypocrisy?

  94. on 25 Mar 2011 at 3:17 pm 94.DPK said …

    DBD… sorry, it IS a cop out answer. Your contention that god will do as you ask as long as you don’t ask because that would negate your faith is the prime example of circular logic and sounds exactly like what a manipulative person would conjure up and write in a holy book in an effort to convince a simpler minded person to do his bidding. Like the Emperor’s New Clothes, you must first suspend disbelief before you can see “reality”.
    Seriously? “To ask God to do something against His word means that the person is NOT one with God and God’s words does NOT abide in the person.” You don’t see the obvious double speak in that statement? If you ask god something and you get it, it is proof that god exists. If you ask god something and you don’t get it, it proves god exists because it is against his will and he knows better than you. If you ask god something and you get something completely different, that proves god exists because he loves you and answered your prayer in a way that superior. But that covers all possible outcomes! Heads I win, tails you lose. That’s a PT Barnum god not worthy of a rational human with a high functioning power of reason.
    How would god suspending a bowling ball… which would SURELY result in my conversion and the salvation of my soul, and perhaps many others, go against god’s word while raising the dead, walking on water, raining manna from heaven and multiplying loaves and fishes does not?

  95. on 26 Mar 2011 at 1:42 pm 95.Anti-Theist said …

    The most intriguing answer would be, “what does the individual fear so badly that an otherwise intelligent person believes in / creates intricate arguments for these obvious fairy tales;” I think it obvious that these internal impenetrable walls of religion / god are protecting the deluded from something.

  96. on 26 Mar 2011 at 11:42 pm 96.DPK said …

    That’s an easy one to answer. Fear of death. Simple as that. All theistic beliefs revolve around the concept of life after death. How else could ancient kings and church leaders persuade people to die for them? They promise an eternal life better than the miserable one they have now.
    Heroin.

  97. on 28 Mar 2011 at 3:14 am 97.DBD said …

    Severin,

    It is clear that you are NOT following Jesus. None of us would be able to believe in the existence of God if it had not been for Jesus coming to us and standing at the door of our hearts knocking. For Revelation 3:20 states: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” To hear God’s voice means to hear His Word, which is found in the Bible. If you neglect God’s word, you neglect God. Noone can be accepted apart from their word. ie. I can’t call a friend a friend apart from his/her words. If I don’t believe or care for or listen to his/her words, how can I call them friends?

    Simply put, humans live in a body, possess a soul, and are a spirit. Our soul either allows its body to be master or its spirit to be master. After the fall of Adam and Eve, where man allowed for their body to instruct their souls, their spirit became dormant. Separation came about between man and God. God was no longer able to exist in man, because man allowed darkness into their souls. Since God is light and in Him there is NO darkness at all, God could no longer reside in man. Jesus Christ came to reverse what Adam and Eve did. Jesus Christ paid our sin debts for us, since he is the Creator, he is the only One who can redeem His creation from our fall. A person who accepts this gift by believing in and relying on Jesus Christ, then receives the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes in them and their spirits are revived. God can once again reside in His people, but it is not because we don’t sin anymore, it is because Jesus paid all of our past, present, and future sin debts. So now as you correctly ascertained, a person must now be led by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit as opposed to being led by the flesh and walking by the flesh. The Spirit is God’s way of doing things. The flesh is the world’s way of doing things and is opposed to God’s way of doing things; it has to do with the desire to selfishly gratify ourselves according to a wrong way of thinking that came from our thinking being in line with the world and NOT with God. To walk in the Spirit means to think the way God thinks and to do the way God does. It becomes a way of living for Christians who have God living in them and are also living in God. Galatians 5:16-26, then becomes an essential passage of scripture.

    If love has to do with evolution, why don’t animals experience it? You ever love a bumble bee? Would you give up your life to save a bumble bee, likewise would the bumble bee give up its life to save yours. Jesus loved us so much, he gave up His life for us. John 3:16 states For God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. There are three types of love mentioned in greek. Eros, erotic love, Philos, friendship/familial love, and Agape, God’s unconditional love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 explains it best: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.” When God commands us to love others as ourselves and love God with all of our heart, mind, body soul. That is the type of love we must aspire to do.

    The feeling of love which is something that is not physically manifest is the reason why you have to have faith to experience it. Love is NOT matter, so you can’t use your physical senses to probe it, only faith!

  98. on 28 Mar 2011 at 3:29 am 98.DBD said …

    sonofapreacherman,

    I never said you were too much into spirituality, read what I wrote again. Spirituality comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, of which you never had, because if you did, you NEVER would’ve left. You may have had religion, but not spirituality.

    You need to challenge your way of thinking. Where did it come from? The world. The world informs who you are today, not God. From the time you were a baby, words from the world were injected into your mind. Ever watch TV, talk to your friends, go to school? All are words from the world. Words from the world entered your mind and are entering your mind and will enter your mind, these words then become the way in which you think, your thinking then informs your feelings about things, your feelings impact the decisions you make, and the decisions you make then inform the actions you take, the actions you take then cause you to form certain habits, the habits you form cause you to arrive at a certain destination, which is in line with the world and opposed to God. The only way to not be in line with the world’s way of thinking is to start with God’s word and make God’s word first in your life. God’s words informing your thinking, Godly thinking would inform your feelings, good feelings would inform your decisions, good decisions would inform your actions, good actions would result in Godly habits, Godly habits will cause you to be in a position to be at a destination that is aligned with what God wants.

  99. on 28 Mar 2011 at 3:34 am 99.DBD said …

    DPK,

    Suspending a bowling ball per your instruction would go against God’s word simply because the Scriptures say “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” If God did things against His word just to fulfill your or anyone else’s selfish desires, then that would mean God’s word isn’t true and everything held by His word, including this universe would spin out of existence.

    God is His Word. God’s Word is Truth. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Seeking Life after bodily death has to do with seeking God who is Life. There is NO FEAR of DEATH, only LOVE of LIFE, LOVE of GOD, LOVE of JESUS. LIFE=GOD=JESUS=GOD’S WORD=TRUTH=THE WAY=LOVE. God is LOVE. There is NO FEAR IN LOVE because anyone who fears has NOT reached perfection in LOVE.

  100. on 28 Mar 2011 at 6:55 am 100.Severin said …

    99 DBD
    ““To hear God’s voice means to hear His Word, which is found in the Bible.“
    Muslims say:
    Koran is Allah’s (god’s) word, Bible is not.

    “LIFE=GOD=JESUS=GOD’S WORD=TRUTH=THE WAY=LOVE.”
    Muslims say:
    Life = Allah =Allah’s word = truth = the way = love

    Prove them wrong!
    Whom should I trust, in case I would be ineterested in some “truth” of that sort, and why?

    WHY should I trust you?
    Why should I not trust them?

  101. on 28 Mar 2011 at 10:43 am 101.TGHO said …

    @99 DBD,

    And yet Gideon, Elijah and Isaiah all tested the christian god in the bible.

  102. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:07 pm 102.Lou said …

    97.DBD said …

    “Simply put, humans live in a body, possess a soul, and are a spirit.”

    Simply put, that is B.S., and there’s no evidence of a soul or a spirit.

    “If love has to do with evolution, why don’t animals experience it?”

    We are animals. And there is evidence that lower forms of animals experience emotions.

    “You ever love a bumble bee?”

    No, but I have felt love for other pets that I had. I have been loved by other people. But I have NEVER felt love from any god that you describe.

    “The feeling of love which is something that is not physically manifest is the reason why you have to have faith to experience it.”

    No, I don’t.

  103. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:09 pm 103.DPK said …

    DBD..
    Don’t drink the Kool-Aide man!
    Seriously? That’s your answer? A bunch of brainwashed gibberish?
    If I was going to invent a god and a religion, the first rule I’d make is “Believe in me… or else!” and the 2nd one would be “Don’t ever test me.”
    Kinda preempts a lot of potential problems.

    I’m afraid you won’t win any converts here by answering rational arguments with bible-speak.

  104. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:12 pm 104.Lou said …

    99.DBD said …

    “Suspending a bowling ball per your instruction would go against God’s word simply because the Scriptures say “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”

    How convenient. Your god can’t stop a falling bowling ball from crushing your skull when the bible says ask and you shall receive, yet your god has plenty of time and energy to whip-up earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes, tornadoes, droughts, and floods to test us.

  105. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:13 pm 105.DPK said …

    I would guess anyone who would claim that animals do not feel emotions has never had a dog.
    What a ridiculous statement.

  106. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:17 pm 106.DBD said …

    Severin,

    Provide the references in the koran where that is stated please.

    No, you prove them wrong. Work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling! I’ve worked mine out, if you want it, you’ll work your own out for yourself.

    TGHO,

    No, the devil attempted to test God; the devil wanted to test God’s ability to do what He said He could do. The devil was specifically attempting to get Jesus to do evil. If Jesus had taken the devil’s tests Jesus would have committed sins. The devil was asking Jesus to PROVE that He was the Son of God by jumping off of the temple’s highest point and commanding angels to save Him; this is a temptation of the pride of life, which is evil and is a sin. If Jesus had pride in his authority over angels, He would have jumped off the building to prove to the devil that he was as powerful as His word stated. A person who constantly proves his/her authority to others is fulfilling his/her own pride that they have that higher position. When Jesus said, DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST he meant DO NOT TEST GOD’S ABILITY TO DO WHAT HE SAID HE CAN DO. So, the devil was basically asking God to prove that He really is God and that he really is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

    Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah and Hezekiah were NOT TESTING GOD. They were NOT testing God’s ability to do what He said He could do. They know that God can do what He said, so they did NOT want God to prove that He CAN do something. Also, they were NOT tempting God to try to get Him to sin or do evil. These chosen ones of God wanted to prove for themselves God’s word. They were men of faith, who needed evidence for their faith because God will never ask us to have blind faith. They needed for their faith to be confirmed within their own hearts. So, Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah and Hezekiah KNOW THAT THEY KNOW THAT THEY KNOW THAT God really is God and that He really is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. They were asking God, I know you can do ANYTHING, but God will you really do this thing that you said FOR ME?

  107. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:20 pm 107.DPK said …

    How about if instead of you agreeing to stand under the bowling ball, which would be you “testing” god. If we kidnapped you and put you under the ball? Then god would be saving you, the faithful. Funny how he cures illness, helps football teams win games and assists actors and musicians in acquiring Oscars and Grammy’s… but you seem to know full well that there is no way in hell he’s gonna stop that bowling ball from falling.
    Don’t you see how YOU have to devise some elaborate, multi-layered rationalization that defies even what it says in your own bible to explain this. Whereas I have to postulate only one simple explanation that fits all the evidence and makes perfect sense. God will not prevent the bowling ball from cracking your skull because god exists only in your imagination. He is not real. He is completely, 100% fictional. THAT is the reason you cannot test him!

  108. on 28 Mar 2011 at 1:29 pm 108.DPK said …

    “Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah and Hezekiah KNOW THAT THEY KNOW THAT THEY KNOW THAT God really is God and that He really is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. They were asking God, I know you can do ANYTHING, but God will you really do this thing that you said FOR ME?”

    So how would this be different from YOU (who is faithful, knows god, and knows that he really is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent) asking him to stop the bowling ball from cracking your skull? I don’t see the distinction. A test is a test. If you never wanted to test god, you would never ask him for anything… since he knows better anyway, why would you ever presume to ask him to change his mind? You wouldn’t, right? So if your wife or child got cancer, you would never ask god to make them well. Right?

  109. on 28 Mar 2011 at 2:01 pm 109.Anti-Theist said …

    Many animals mate for life / have been known to die defending one another; just because we have a name for it doesn’t make it an exclusively human trait. Animals also get horny, angry, and lazy. We aren’t that special, just arrogant.

  110. on 28 Mar 2011 at 2:57 pm 110.Lou said …

    106.DBD said …

    “They were men of faith, who needed evidence for their faith because God will never ask us to have blind faith.”

    LOL! Except that’s EXACTLY what your god (and you) asks of us.

  111. on 28 Mar 2011 at 4:29 pm 111.DPK said …

    I saw on the news last night the story of a fire in an historic building in Philadelphia. The owners lived in an apartment above. The fire seriously damaged the building and the 2 occupants of the apartment barely made it out alive. One was seriously injured and his survival is not certain.
    The survivor was on TV attributing his and his friend’s escape as being attributed to god. It was thanks to god that he was spared and not burned to death. Which of course begs the question… why didn’t god just put the fire out, or prevent it from happening in the first place?
    Why would god save these people from the fire, but not save DBD’s head from a bowling ball?
    It’s a mystery.

  112. on 28 Mar 2011 at 5:30 pm 112.Lou said …

    70.Lightning Boy said …

    “Its not opinion, it is fact. Of course Jefferson was referring to God as the creator.”

    What’s debatable is if it was the “God” of the bible.

    In the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom Jefferson wrote:

    “Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free….that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry…

    Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall…suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities.”

  113. on 28 Mar 2011 at 5:45 pm 113.Severin said …

    106 DBD
    “Provide the references in the koran where that is stated please.”

    Sorry, my fault! I actually did not read Kuran systematically, and I can not give you references. I only guessed it claims Allah is the only god, love, the way, love…

    However, I DID hear many Muslims, privately and on TV, sayin such things, and the fact is: they all think Allah is everything, Bible is BS and Christians are delusional.

    Prove them delusional, or admit YOU are.

  114. on 28 Mar 2011 at 6:16 pm 114.Severin said …

    106 DBD
    “No, you prove them wrong.”

    Christians and Muslims are equal for me. I do not see any substantial difference between them.
    What I say for Christians, you may apply to Muslims as well, and v.v.

    If someone interested in accepting a religion addressed to me to tell him whether to chose Islam or Christianity, and WHY would he/she take Christianity instead of Islam (or v.v.), I would tell him/her that I don’t know.

    What would YOU tell him/her?

  115. on 28 Mar 2011 at 6:32 pm 115.Lou said …

    DBD,

    Why is it that Christians require atheists to prove that God doesn’t exist, but Christians aren’t required to prove that Allah, the Muslim god, (or any other god) doesn’t exist?

  116. on 28 Mar 2011 at 6:37 pm 116.Severin said …

    106 DBD
    “Work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling!”

    That much about a god of endless love, goodness, compassion and understanding!

    Is THAT how you see your god?
    Terrible!

    You don’t need hell after you die! You are living your hell now! Every second of your life seems to be worse than hell, if you temble and fear all the time.

    I don’t!
    As I said, I don’t feel as being imprisoned or endangered, so I don’t need “salvation”, whatever it is.
    I feel excellently, thank you.
    I live a wonderful life!

  117. on 28 Mar 2011 at 7:06 pm 117.Lightning Boy said …

    “What’s debatable is if it was the “God” of the bible.”

    Actually, not that is without debate. Christianity does NOT require you to be a a Christian or fear the death penalty as with Islam. Jesus dealt with unbelievers regularly, lovingly and in truth. Therefore Jefferson’s words ring true and fit within the framework of the Bible.

  118. on 28 Mar 2011 at 7:13 pm 118.DPK said …

    LB… are you now saying that Christianity does NOT require you to accept Jesus as god and your savior in order to enter heaven? ie… you do not have to be a Christian to be “saved” or freed from original sin??
    Because that seems to be what you just said, and if that’s true I think you will get an argument from the Christians more than from the atheists.
    You have just single-handedly redefined Christianity.

  119. on 28 Mar 2011 at 7:18 pm 119.Lightning Boy said …

    DPK

    I am speaking as a member of culture you are not forced to convert.

  120. on 28 Mar 2011 at 7:34 pm 120.Lou said …

    117.Lightning Boy said …

    “What’s debatable is if it was the “God” of the bible.”

    “Actually, not that is without debate.”

    “Christianity does NOT require you to be a a Christian or fear the death penalty as with Islam.”

    I don’t understand how your reply related to whether or not Jefferson was referring to the “God” of the bible.

    If it’s not debatable, then the evidence is that he wasn’t referring to the “God” of the bible.

  121. on 28 Mar 2011 at 7:35 pm 121.Lou said …

    119.Lightning Boy said …

    “I am speaking as a member of culture you are not forced to convert.”

    Could someone please translate that comment into English?

  122. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:01 pm 122.Xenon said …

    Lou

    That might depend. Do you speak Severin English or American English? Seems plain to me.

    Lou is saying the culture of Christianity allows other beliefs to exist. It is the reason Thomas Pain exited in America but not in Irag.

  123. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:42 pm 123.Lou said …

    122.Xenon said

    “Lou is saying…”

    Maybe you meant Lightning Boy?

    “…the culture of Christianity…

    Christianity is not a culture, it is a religion.

    “…allows other beliefs to exist.”

    Really? From Exodus:

    “You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

    “It is the reason Thomas Pain[e] exited [sic] in America but not in Irag.”

    Christianity is the reason? Don’t be ridiculous. Only six people attended his funeral. He was outcast by Christians because of his criticism and ridicule of Christianity.

  124. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:42 pm 124.DBD said …

    Lou, 104

    You said, “yet your god has plenty of time and energy to whip-up earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes, tornadoes, droughts, and floods to test us.” Wrong, God never intended for any of these natural disasters to be on earth. In fact, before the fall, Adam and Eve were naked and could be naked due to the perfect climate. It was only after they ate the apple that their glory disappeared and they saw their nakedness. These natural disasters all came after sin came. Man brought in natural disasters due to their disobedience of God. Death came after sin came. Humans and animals did not kill each other before the fall. Cain was the first to kill another human.

    “God never meant for man to walk on thorns. It was never in the beginning. When sin came, thorns came, curse came, death came, destruction came. That’s why Jesus wept at a funeral because he remembered it was never meant to be like this. Loved ones are never meant to die. Man is never supposed to grow old. Man is never supposed to have disease. It’s not part of God’s plan. Sin brought all these things in. And God brought in his son to be the answer.” Joseph Prince

    Jesus never caused storms, while He was walking on earth. For example, the devil caused a storm to prevent Jesus from reaching land. Jesus calmed the storm. The devil is called the prince of the air for a reason.

    Mark 4:35-41 states, “That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?” He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?” They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”"

    If people want protection from these natural disasters, they need to know God and have faith in God, if they don’t want protection, then they won’t.

    Lou, 110

    God asks us to have faith using His word. If He said it, then it is true and if we walk in it, it will manifest in our lives.

    Lou, 115

    I don’t require anything of anyone. But, if someone is not in denial and is walking in the light, they would want to prove for themselves that my God is true.

  125. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:43 pm 125.DBD said …

    Anti-theist and Lou 102 and DPK 105,

    Animals mate and have emotions, but they don’t reason or love. They don’t have the ability to reason, if they did, they wouldn’t be so loyal to masters who abuse them for example. Mice wouldn’t eat cheese attached to a trap, if they could reason. Humans are NOT animals! God made us unique. He also made us to have authority over animals, but since we gave away our authority when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, we lost it. That’s why lions will kill humans. The only people who can claim it now are christians who walk in the fullness of God.

  126. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:43 pm 126.DBD said …

    DPK, 107

    God exists, but your geenie in a bottle doesn’t exist.

    DPK, 108

    Since God’s word is always true, I can go to His word to obtain healing for example. But, of course I need to be following all of God’s word and NOT trying to treat Him like a geenie in a bottle by cherry picking verses and ignoring others. One word doesn’t cancel out another word, one word must supplement the other word.

    DPK, 111

    Your test is a set-up requiring a geenie in a bottle, which does not exist. For those people, I can’t and won’t judge them. I just pray for them.

  127. on 28 Mar 2011 at 8:43 pm 127.DBD said …

    Severin, 113

    I don’t respond to hearsay.

    Severin, 114

    The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is Jesus Christ is true. Read His word and prove it for yourself, just as I do for myself everyday of my life. Resist the impulse to be lazy, to do nothing, and to rely only on your worldly beliefs because your salvation hangs in the balance.

    Severin, 116

    Working out your salvation in fear and trembling means that as we live our lives a lot of negative circumstances occur that cause us to fear and tremble, but even though you are in fear and trembling work out your salvation anyway. As you WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION, you will acquire soundness of mind, deliverance, healing, preservation, prosperity, and safety.

  128. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:03 pm 128.Lou said …

    124.DBD said

    “Wrong, God never intended for any of these natural disasters to be on earth.”

    Then your god isn’t omnipotent and omniscient. That renders worthless any other of your comments about him.

  129. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:05 pm 129.Severin said …

    106 DBD

    I told this several times on this blog:
    I live, in the first place, a HONEST life.
    I do not offend, I do not steal, I do not kill, I do not lie, I respect all people, I am responsible for myself, my family, society I live with, and for my planet.
    I work a lot. I fulfill all duties society expects from me.
    I help people a lot, the best way I can (and more, never asking for their religion), and I feel joy in living that way.
    I also love.

    I do not believe in any sort of god or supernatural being, but let’s assume there is one:

    No such a being ever addressed to me to prove his existance.
    He sends me „messengers“ in form of hundreds of denominations of different religions, all of them claiming they are the ONLY messengers of him, BUT all of them claiming different things about god and offering me different (and contradictory!) rules I should accept and live accordingly, to „deserve“ god’s attention and to be „saved“ (whatever it means).
    They CAN NOT be right, all of them!
    How can I (capital „I“) distinguish who is right?

    I don’t trust those people, and why would I?!
    I don’t trust you citing Bible more than someone citing Koran, and why would I?
    None of you/them has god’s credentials!
    Only a very diotic god would give credentials to so many different “messengers” of him.

    Now, if there is some „allmighty idiot“ somewhere there, who is sending me so many different (and contradictory) messages, but still wants to punish me ONLY because I do not trust his idiotic, contradictory „messengers“, SO BE IT!

    Shame would be his, not mine!

  130. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:07 pm 130.Lou said …

    125.DBD said …

    “Animals mate and have emotions, but they don’t reason or love. They don’t have the ability to reason, if they did, they wouldn’t be so loyal to masters who abuse them for example.”

    LOL! Of course animals can reason. But let’s take your faulty logic to the next level. If YOU had the ability to reason, then you wouldn’t be so loyal to your master who is a child-murdering lunatic.

  131. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:08 pm 131.Lou said …

    127.DBD said …

    “I don’t respond to hearsay.”

    But you expect everybody else to.

  132. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:17 pm 132.Xenon said …

    “Only six people attended his funeral.”

    Only six people were there because he was an arrogant loud mouthed blow hard nobody liked. It had nothing to do with atheism. It is possible to be an atheist and still a compassionate loving person.

    lol! Remeber our founders were not Christians……they were THEIST…lol

    Since you are suddenly the historian. check into what Mrs Adams had to see about our Paine.

    Lou, you are very unreasonable and frankly very hypocritical. I don’t see how you can be reasoned with. You and Severin should work well together.

  133. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:31 pm 133.Severin said …

    DBD

    Hearsay?
    Please read a few verses from Koran. Then tell us what is wrong with it, IF something is wrong!

    [2.28] How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.
    [2.29] He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.
    [2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

    [11.1] Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware:
    [11.2] That you shall not serve (any) but Allah; surely I am a warner for you from Him and a giver of good news,
    [11.3] And you that ask forgiveness of your Lord, then turn to Him; He will provide you with a goodly provision to an appointed term and bestow His grace on every one endowed with grace, and if you turn back, then surely I fear for you the chastisement of a great day.
    [11.4] To Allah is your return, and He has power over all things.

  134. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:35 pm 134.Severin said …

    127 DBD
    “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is Jesus Christ is true.”

    As you can see, Koran states only Allah is true!
    Whome should I trust and why?

    How can I distinguish who is right?

  135. on 28 Mar 2011 at 9:46 pm 135.sonofapreacherman said …

    Severin asked DBD:
    “How can I distinguish who is right?”

    DBD doesn’t know anything except that DBD is absolutely right about absolutely everything. DBD is apparently the truth, the light, and the way unto the truth, the light and the way. It’s kind of like DBD is God II.

  136. on 28 Mar 2011 at 10:09 pm 136.Biff said …

    Sev

    You have a tough choice. Standing on the sidelines pretending there is not deity behind the universe will get your questioned answered. Ironically Islam makes more sense than atheism.

  137. on 28 Mar 2011 at 11:34 pm 137.Lou said …

    132.Xenon said …

    “Lou, you are very unreasonable and frankly very hypocritical. I don’t see how you can be reasoned with. You and Severin should work well together.”

    Whether or not Paine was as you or I described is 100% irrelevant to your ludicrous, unsupportable, false claim that “It [Christianity] is the reason Thomas Pain exited in America but not in Irag.”

  138. on 29 Mar 2011 at 3:02 am 138.TGHO said …

    @106 DBD,

    I think you misunderstand what the word “test” means. Those three stories in the bible are clearly people asking their god to perform a task, and the outcome of the task will affect their decision. That’s what people call “testing”.

  139. on 29 Mar 2011 at 3:06 am 139.DPK said …

    DBD said “Humans are NOT animals!”

    Ok sorry, it took me a full 5 minutes to stop laughing over this one.
    Sorry, you are just too deluded to even try to reason with anymore.

  140. on 29 Mar 2011 at 6:39 am 140.Severin said …

    113 Biff
    “Ironically Islam makes more sense than atheism.”

    I expected such an answer from a theist, but it was not my question.

    Of course, as all answers of theists, this one is:
    - Out of topic (answer to question that was not posed, running away from a problem, fogging)
    - Just a personal claim, without arguments

    The question was: how can I distinguish who is right: Islam or Christianity?
    Then: which Islam denomination/which christian denomination should I chose, and why?
    What arguments should I follow if I wanted to make my choice among Islam and Christianity, then among many denominations of those religions?

  141. on 29 Mar 2011 at 10:43 am 141.Biff said …

    “The question was: how can I distinguish who is right: Islam or Christianity?”

    How did you distinguish Atheism was right?

    Would you like me tell you who to marry too? Did someone tell you who to marry?

    My point was, YOU must investigate and answer the question. Standing around claiming there is no God while it is obvious that God does exist is just a cop out. The only catch is, it must be legitimate without preconceived ideas.

  142. on 29 Mar 2011 at 10:59 am 142.Severin said …

    113 Biff
    “Islam makes more sense than atheism”

    IF there is god, you are right!
    In that case both, Islam and Christianity makes sense COMPARED TO ATHEISM.

    How about compared to each other?
    O.K., fine, let’s say: there is god!
    Let’s say we all have to obey and respect him (her? it?) to deserve “salvation” (whatever it is; going to paradise after death?).
    To obey and respect him (not to make him angry, not to tremble before him, not to have fear…), we have:
    - To drink his blood in form of wine/to avoid drinking wine
    - To eat pork/to avoid eating pork, as strictly forbidden
    - To have only one wife (more than one strictly forbidden!)/to have more than one wife
    - To paint his appearance in churches/to avoid it as strictly forbidden
    - To believe in trinity/to believe in single entity
    - To believe god had a son/to believe god had no son
    - To believe in going to paradise (salvation?) ONLY as a Muslim/to believe in going in paradise ONLY as a Christian

    The right question is: if god exists, is he an idiot?
    An “allmighty” unable to give right, uncontradictory instructions about how to behave, how to live, how to worship him, ALL being instructions that are ESSENTIAL for “salvation”?

    It is not easy to believe in “allmighty idiots”!
    So, I don’t!

  143. on 29 Mar 2011 at 11:22 am 143.Severin said …

    141 Biff
    “How did you distinguish Atheism was right?“

    Selling fog again?

    When/where did I say atheism was right?

    It is YOU who claim there is god/theism is right!!!
    Do you?

    I ONLY say: I do not believe it!
    Concept of god does not fit my logic, my knowledge, science I recognize, so I do not believe there is one.
    Maybe there is god, I would not know, but to convince me, what I need is MUCH more than soemone’s claim!
    Especially when claims are contradictory, illogical, cruel, IDIOTIC (like making man from mud, horses with wings, incestous mating, big flood without kangaroos, talking snakes, trinity/single entity, son/no son, resurrection/no esurrection…)

    „…while it is obvious that God does exist…“

    Sorry, it is not obvious to me.
    You are always welcome to offer some arguments to support your opinion about „obvious“ existance of god.
    I will keep my OPINION (not claim!) untill then.

    It is much more confortable for me to avoid trembling before some idiot who pretends to be “allmighty”, but does not know how to convince people that he exists.

  144. on 29 Mar 2011 at 11:52 am 144.Severin said …

    141 Biff
    “YOU must investigate and answer the question.”

    O.K., at least I have a chance to “investigate” and “answer the question”.
    As I am a simple human being, unable to distinguish between divine dillemas, because my heart does not tell me anything about possible chioces, neither does my brain, I chose NOT to believe in gods, untill some of them gives me right instructions personally.

    But, what oportunity was given to Mayas, Incas, Eskimos, North American Indians, people from Polynesia, Aborigines…. to “investigate” and “answer the question”?

    An “allmighty idiot” in action!?
    He (she?, it?) neglected hunderds of millions of “his children”, denying them a CHANCE to learn something about him, for 15 centuries, and more? He let poor people pulling hearts from living individuals in name of some snake with feathers, or in name of sun?
    Ts, ts, ts…

  145. on 29 Mar 2011 at 12:03 pm 145.Severin said …

    BDB, Biff,

    What consequences cold I expect (by your opinion)from my not believing in god(s), if I live a decent and honest life, as I described in #129?

    What will happen to me?

  146. on 29 Mar 2011 at 1:42 pm 146.Lou said …

    141.Biff said …

    “How did you distinguish Atheism was right?”

    Atheism isn’t right (correct) or wrong (incorrect). We are attempting to “distinguish” (determine) that theism is correct or incorrect. Theism, in the general sense, is the belief in a god. Atheism, in the general sense, is the rejection of that belief. Show us that the belief in god (theism) is correct.

    Repeating – atheism, in the general sense, is the rejection of the theist belief. It, in and of itself, is neither correct (right) or incorrect (wrong). Therefore, we don’t have to make any distinction about atheism as you suggest. We only have to make such a distinction about theism. If theism is shown to be true, then that automatically eliminates the atheists’ doubt.

    Think of it this way, atheism means -

    “Deists, show us that your belief is correct. Show us some irrefutable evidence that your belief is true.” That is neither correct or incorrect.

    P.S. Hearsay, personal experience (delusion), and circumstance are not irrefutable evidence.

  147. on 29 Mar 2011 at 1:45 pm 147.Lou said …

    Corrective – “Theists,” not “Deists.”

  148. on 29 Mar 2011 at 3:15 pm 148.MrQ said …

    Biff #141

    My point was, YOU must investigate and answer the question……claiming there is no God while it is obvious that God does exist is just a cop out.

    Why don’t WE try to use the evidence at hand and see if god/gods emerge from our analysis of the data. We tried it once or twice and you always seem to flee in fear.

    So, again, start with some basic information. Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Our universe is 14 billion years old. Biff, let me know how this sounds to you. Horatio is on board with a 4.5 billion year old Earth.

    Try not to cop out this time.

  149. on 29 Mar 2011 at 4:51 pm 149.Biff said …

    Severin,

    I have no idea what you are talking about in #142. You seem to indicate since you cannot grasp the concept of God He does not exist. On the contrary, if God acted and behaved in a manner man saw as fit it is doubtful He could be God. We are such fragile and finite creatures how could we even begin to completely grasp God.

    I don’t think God is the idiot, it is men. We just like to tell ourselves how intelligent and marvelous we are but in reality we practically powerless.

  150. on 29 Mar 2011 at 4:55 pm 150.Biff said …

    “When/where did I say atheism was right?”

    I have seen you post in the past you are on this site because you might be able to keep a young person from going into theism.

    Either you are telling a fib, or you have decided to sell a product you don’t believe in. In any event, that it is disingenuous.

  151. on 29 Mar 2011 at 5:16 pm 151.Lou said …

    149.Biff said …

    “We are such fragile and finite creatures how could we even begin to completely grasp God.”

    Then why does God attempt to reveal himself through Jesus, prophets, and the Bible? If you are correct, and if God is omniscient, then God wouldn’t attempt to reveal himself to men, because “how could we even begin to completely grasp God[?]”

    “I don’t think God is the idiot, it is men.”

    Men? Created by God in God’s image?

    “We just like to tell ourselves how intelligent and marvelous we are but in reality we practically powerless.”

    Actually, no, we don’t. Let’s start with the belief in fictional gods…

  152. on 30 Mar 2011 at 6:11 am 152.Severin said …

    149 Biff
    “I have no idea what you are talking about in #142.”

    If there is only one god and so many religion, then god is an idiot requirenig from people, through different religion, different and contradictory things, that people are not able to accept, believe, or do.
    How can I believe in trinity and in single entity in the same time? How can I believe god has son, and god had no son, in the same time?
    Or, are there many gods?
    Or, maybe there is none?

    150 Biff
    Again, I never said atheism was right, and I never claimed there was no god.
    I claimed that there are little chances that god exists, and I do not believe there is a god.
    I always claimed: IF there is god, it is not my concern, unless he/she/it adresses to me, and should not be anyone’s concern without direct evidences, for example hid direct addresing to people.
    Otherwise, you see what we have: million different, contradictory religions, each claiming to be the right one! It would be fine if those religions were peacefull, but they are all aggressive and all of them spread hate to everyone who is not with them.
    IF god exists, and allows such a mess, then he must be either an idiot, or very evil.

    So, please, do not twist my words, I know perfectly what I am saying.

    I DID claim RELIGIONS were wrong and dangerous.

  153. on 30 Mar 2011 at 7:04 pm 153.TGHO said …

    @141 Biff,

    What I want to know is how much investigation of islam *you* did before choosing christianity. What about wicca? Hinduism? Taoism? Mormonism? Etc., etc.

    The only reason you’re christian is that you were born into a mostly christian society, and most likely have christian parents. If you’d been born in India, you’d be hindu. If you’d be born in Saudi Arabia, you’d be muslim.

    Conversely to this situation, the majority of atheists were raised in a religion – and then they started their investigations.

  154. on 30 Mar 2011 at 7:06 pm 154.TGHO said …

    @149 Biff,

    Practically powerless? We’ve got the power to destroy this Earth almost completely. We’ve got the power to cure diseases which have killed hundreds of millions in the past. We’ve got the power to level mountains, drain seas, redirect huge rivers, etc., etc. That’s not “powerless”.

  155. on 31 Mar 2011 at 5:53 am 155.Severin said …

    Biff, DBD,

    What will happen to me if I don’t believe in god?

  156. on 04 Apr 2011 at 1:22 am 156.Holy Bible said …

    I’ll answer for them, Severin: you’ll go to hell. And that’s not me being judgemental; that’s God’s judgement.

  157. on 04 Apr 2011 at 5:55 am 157.Severin said …

    156 Holy Bible

    Thank you!

    So, your god really IS an asshole, behaving like a spoiled child.
    He will send honest, decent and responsible people (like me) to hell only beause I don’t believe he exists, without making the smallest effort to confirm his existance to people!?

    Ts, ts, ts…

  158. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:53 am 158.DBD said …

    Severin (155),

    You asked, “What will happen to me if I don’t believe in God?”

    It is natural for us all to seek justice. We want justice for when people do bad or wrong things to us. For example, do you support the seeking of justice for a person who was attacked by a rapist or lost their life at the hands of a murderer? How about a person who was lied to by a liar?

    All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; this includes you and me, not just the rapists and the murderers. The rapists and the murderers have committed worse sins than you and me, but nevertheless we’ve all sinned.

    One example of a sin that we’ve done is to lie. Have you ever lied before? April fools just passed; did you make a “harmless” lie to trick someone? It may be harmless in that it didn’t hurt anybody, but lying is a sin; it is a wrongdoing. When a person doesn’t lie or tells the truth, it is right doing. When a person lies, what should be their judgment? When Pinocchio lied, his nose grew. I guess since a person uses their tongue to say a lie, if a person were justly judged maybe their tongue should be removed? I don’t know. When does a lie transition from harmless to harmful? Everyone has their own rules on that.

    God has rules too. God is fair, so when a person does wrong to another person, He seeks justice for the person who was wronged by judging the person who committed the sin. But, now we have a problem here. What is the adequate judgment for a person who commits a sin? The bible says in Romans 6:23 that for the wages of sin is death… That means that anyone who sins dies. So, do the logic. Since all people have sinned and anyone who sins dies, then all people die. Well, that’s true. We were born, we live our lives of sin, and then we die. So, we die because of our natural tendencies to sin. Sickness is a slow form of death. If penicillin were never discovered people would die from pneumonia, for example.

    What really dies is the body of a person. But is a person only composed of body parts with organs and tissues? No. A person is also a soul. A person’s soul contains his/her mind used to think voluntarily, emotions used to feel involuntarily, and a heart which is the place where a person has desires and motives. Although the body as we know of it dies and goes back to dust, the soul is reserved for judgment by God. Actually both the soul and a miraculously reconstructed body of a person will be judged by God. So, when a person dies, only their body dies, the soul “sleeps” until judgment day.

    God has other qualities as well. God is faithful and merciful. Lamentations 3:22-23 state Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions (mercies) never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. Faithfulness is a trait that has to be proved eternally. A spouse can be faithful for many years and then commit adultery in one night and lose all of his/her trait of faithfulness. God is faithful to us. He created humans because He wanted to have a relationship with us. He even wants to have a relationship with us even though we separated ourselves from Him when we sinned. He is so merciful and compassionate that He decided to pay our debts in full to sin. When a person gets a bill that details their debts, the person must pay the debt. Well, all humans received bills that detailed our debts due to our sins; our debts are that our souls and bodies must all die in hell. But God sent His son Jesus, who lived a pure and sinless life on earth to die instead of us. Jesus took our sins, so that we HAVE THE OPTION to no longer receive judgment of death for our sins because Jesus took our sins. So our sins are no longer ours if we choose to accept the gift. The rest of Romans 6:23 states “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” However, a gift has to be accepted. If I said, “Severin here’s a million dollars.” And if I tried to hand you a suitcase with a million dollars in it, don’t you know that you will never have the million dollars unless you take the suitcase from me. The same is true with the gift of God. God says, “Severin, here’s eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” But, if you don’t believe in Christ Jesus, you can never have eternal life.

    Why does a person who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior now have eternal life? Because their sins are no more. Jesus was the only person qualified to choose take my sins because He never sinned. Jesus was able to pay my sin debt because he had more than enough or infinite capital or wealth in the form of sinlessness and purity and glory to pay it. Only a person who has cash can pay a bill, but if all humans have only bills, no one human can pay their own bills let alone another person’s bills.

    The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is that a non-Christian is wicked and a Christian is righteous. A non-Christian is wicked not because they sin more than a Christian, but because they have rejected God’s gift to wipe out their sin debts. A Christian still “does wrong”, but God DOES NOT SEE the wrong that a Christian does. All God SEES in a Christian is Jesus Christ because the Christian is in Jesus Christ. God knows that Christians sin, but He doesn’t see their sins. The knowledge that we sin is utilized NOT to judge us, but to help us learn how to live a life free from sin.

    We have a second chance to pursue righteousness through Jesus Christ, so that we can have the gift of righteousness, which is eternal life. Only those who are righteous can have the ability to live forever. God can’t live forever with sin. Who would want to live forever with evil? There were times, when you got sick; would you want to live forever being sick? I hope not! That’s torture. I want to live forever being healthy and healed. That’s life.

    When people die, they die either in Christ or wicked. If they die in Christ, they will have eternal life and will NOT be judged for any sin. In fact, they will judge the demons and wicked people and will live eternally with God exploring the untold and the unimaginable as of yet. If they die wicked, both their soul and their miraculously reconstructed bodies will be destroyed in hell.

    So, as I have told you before. The choice is yours. There is a massively huge bible that you can pick up and read and prove for yourself if God is real. Faith is evidence, but it isn’t proof. Proof is many evidences stacked up to back up an individual’s belief. Faith is reserved for each individual. So, what can/will you believe God for? Try Him out. Ask God to help you on your journey. Ask Him to show you and help you find your way to Him.

  159. on 05 Apr 2011 at 11:01 am 159.TGHO said …

    @158 DBD,

    Wow, there’s so much wrong in that post I don’t even know where to start.

    The brainwashing is pretty much complete with you.

  160. on 05 Apr 2011 at 11:41 am 160.JohnnyP said …

    @ DBD

    Although I don’t believe most of the things you and other christians on here profess to, I have to admit it’s a breath of fresh air having a christian on here who is not a smug, arrogant, a-hole and tries to at least give thoughtful answers. That being said…

    “One example of a sin that we’ve done is to lie.”

    When someone greets me with “How are you?” and I answer “Fine” when I am not fine, have I sinned?

    When my wife asks “Do I look fat in this?” and I answer “No” for reasons I’m sure need not be stated here, have I sinned?

    When I dislike a co-worker but keep it to myself and treat that person in a friendly manner for the sake of a peaceful work environment, am I being dishonest? Dishonesty is a form of lying, yes?

    “A Christian still “does wrong”, but God DOES NOT SEE the wrong that a Christian does. All God SEES in a Christian is Jesus Christ because the Christian is in Jesus Christ. God knows that Christians sin, but He doesn’t see their sins. The knowledge that we sin is utilized NOT to judge us, but to help us learn how to live a life free from sin.”

    So once you have passed from earthly life into the “Eternal Life/Heaven” phase, what happens to that inherent sinful nature? Since christians are still susceptible to sin even with Jesus dwelling within their heart, does god have to remove it in order to keep heaven sin-free? If he is so willing to remove ones sinful nature in the transition from here to there, why doesn’t he just do that when we’re born and that way no one will have to end up in hell? Because that will negate his gift of free will? Well, does one have free will in heaven, where sin is impossible? If free will means having a choice between good and evil, what does free will in heaven mean?

    “Ask God to help you…find your way to Him.”

    I never understood the reasoning behind this popular christian suggestion. If one does not believe, how can one make themselves believe enough to pray effectively? I can say the words, but they would have no meaning. Does that matter to god?

  161. on 05 Apr 2011 at 3:15 pm 161.Lou said …

    158.DBD said …

    “You asked, “What will happen to me if I don’t believe in God?”

    It is natural for us all to seek justice.”

    You are equating rape and murder to disbelief in a god that provides no evidence that he exists?!

    There’s really something wrong with you.

    “We want justice for when people do bad or wrong things to us.”

    Yes, justice – not maniacal and eternal torture at the hands of a child-murdering lunatic.

  162. on 05 Apr 2011 at 4:55 pm 162.Severin said …

    158 DBD
    “All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; this includes you and me, not just the rapists and the murderers.“

    This does not include me.
    I made MISTAKES in my life, including lying, but ALL mistakes I ever did, could be measured/judged ONLY through the consequences they caused to other people, or to other living beings directly or indirectly.

    I can not use a god as a reference, because I do not believe in gods.
    If a deity still exists somewhere, it is OBLIGATE to inform me CLEARLY and UNDOUBTEDLY what it WANTS from me!
    How, the hell, could I know what anyone, including god, wants from me, if I was not informed?
    Then (after being informed), if I have free will, I will DECIDE whether to obey deity, or not.
    Maybe I am ready to risk NOT to obey a deity, even if I knew it existed, and got information from it, if I don’t agree its „trade offer“ („do/don’t do things to deserve something“).
    Maybe I prefer to live my way, and to go to hell!
    And if I don’t have free will, it will be deity’s will anyway. I can’t do anything. In that case, I shall do what a deity wants, not what I want, I will have no chance to make my choices.

    Untill then (untill a deity directly tells/orders me what to do and how to live), the extent at which my behavior influences HUMAN BEINGS, and OTHER BEINGS (including plants) living on earth, is the only reference I recognize as a “compass” for my behavior.

    Everyone can be sure that I will NEVER decide to do anything wrong to human beings, or other forms of life, present on this planet.

    If I get crazy (at the moment I see it as only possibility to do something bad) and do something, society has well established mechanisms to stop me, to isolate me and to punish me.

  163. on 05 Apr 2011 at 5:52 pm 163.DBD said …

    JohnnyP (160)

    Thanks for the compliment. I am trying to change my ways because I don’t want to just be accepted by my Christian friends, but I want to be accepted by others who do not adhere to Christianity, whilst giving them my perspective and listening to theirs. I must sow acceptance in order to reap acceptance. That being said, this is the same attitude Christians should have when living their lives. Galatians 6:7 states “Do not be deceived and deluded and misled; God will not allow Himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdained, or mocked by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside.) [He inevitably deludes himself who attempts to delude God.] For whatever a man sows, that and that only is what he will reap.”

    You may have encountered Christians who weren’t very pleasant to talk to, but that’s what is so great about Christianity. A person doesn’t have to be perfect. And we don’t have to take personally wrong things done to us by another person. Not only that, when someone approaches you sinfully, for example, you can rebuke him/her lovingly as guided by the Holy Spirit. God says in Galatians 6:1 “BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also.”

    It’s true. Many times, we lie for example to stop a cascade of problems that can come from revealing truth in a society that is so deceived (believing lies to be truth). And as you pointed out, many of those lies are “harmless”. It is our way of attempting the prevention of more problems to erupt. But, the questions are, is the act of lying a sin and should we (even harmlessly) lie? Yes they are sin, and we should not lie. Now, here’s what I’ve learned from my own experiences. There are beliefs of mine that are contrary to the church in general, but I believe are in line with God and His word. The church is also deceived on some aspects of God’s word. That’s why for example, some churches condemn people. I’ve done it too. It takes a long time learn to stop doing something that everyone around me does wrongly. But, I’m learning to stop this practice more and more each day. In the past, I’ve lied when asked questions by church people, to prevent any problems from erupting. But, when I did that I was wrong and I was attempting to manipulate the circumstances. I should be intent on telling the truth at all times, trusting that God will back me up and support me in the manner. God enlightened me on that a few months ago. So, now I am prepared to tell the truth when encountering church people who ask me questions that reveal our different beliefs and I am expecting God to deliver me from any wrongdoing church people may or may not do in response. Even Jesus told the truth when asked any question, even when it was seemingly more convenient to lie. And there were times when people became angry with Him and tried to kill Him before His death on the cross. But, He did not die until the time appointed to Him by God. Luke 23:46 states “Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.”

    Everyone lies, but the real question is why do we lie? Essentially it is fear. Fear is opposed to faith and has to do with disbelief in God’s word. I lied many times disbelieving that God would help me deal with the whirlwind of issues that would come at me from deceived individuals. In the process, I also deprived individuals of a chance to learn truth. Proverbs 26:28 states “A lying tongue hates those it wounds and crushes, and a flattering mouth works ruin.” Hate is the opposite of love. If a person who lies hates others, then lying breaks the commandment to love others as you love yourself. Would you ever want the truth or would you want the lie? Do you want love or do you want hate? Something that seemed so harmless now erupts into a whirlwind of sin.

    1 Corinthians 13:4-8 describes love in this way: “Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily. It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]. It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail. Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]. Love never fails.”

    If love is what was previously stated, just negate everything to get an understanding of what hate is. For example, hate is self-seeking. Aren’t telling harmless lies about preservation of self?

    So, how do you deal with, for example, your wife asking “Do I look fat in this?” Tell her the truth. There is a prevailing stereotype that fat people are ugly, but that’s not true. Ugliness really comes from character traits, not physical stature. What your wife wants to know is does the outfit, make her look physically unattractive? Certain outfits don’t look right physically. For example, a skinny woman wearing a skirt that reveals her butt cheeks/crack of her butt is not attractive. Girls/Guys wearing their pants low enough to reveal their underwear/boxers are also unattractive.

    As far as the coworker situation goes, if the coworker asks you “do you like me?” Be respectfully truthful; don’t lead them on. Be respectful and cordial at work. You don’t have to take the person home with you. In addition, don’t run around freely telling people that you hate them because that is rude and disrespectful. The point is, don’t lie when asked a question because you would be misleading them and deceiving them.

    You asked, “So once you have passed from earthly life into the “Eternal Life/Heaven” phase, what happens to that inherent sinful nature?” To answer this question, first we need to understand the three-fold nature of man. We are all living souls. That means we are body and soul. Christians are also spirit because the Holy Spirit resides there and has awakened the spirit. The spirit of non-Christians is dormant, inactive, or suspended. A spirit can only be active when Jesus Christ dwells in the heart of a person as that person’s personal savior. The Holy Spirit occupies the spirit of humans who have accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts as their personal savior. For Christians, their spirits are already saved, their souls are being saved, and their bodies will one day be saved. God cannot live in sin, so God only lives in the spirit of man. The souls of Christians, which includes man’s mind, emotions, and heart are being saved. This process occurs via Romans 12:1-2, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” As a Christian changes his/her way of thinking by replacing worldly thoughts, feelings and emotions with Godly thoughts, feelings and emotions, they are saving their souls little by little. The body becomes a living sacrifice, because the body is passing away and is doing the holy work that the soul being renewed prompts of it in the meantime.

    When humans die their earthly bodies pass away. Christians will receive new glorified bodies when Jesus Christ comes. The unsaved portions of their souls will no longer be remembered. Isaiah 65:17 states “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.” 2 Corinthians 5:17 states that “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” Of course faith without works is dead. So, we have faith in 2 Corinthians 5:17 and we work it out, so that this becomes true. Ezekiel 36:26 states “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” But, of course for any Christian, sinful desires can still creep in (happened to me) so by faith like David we declare as stated in Psalm 51:10 “Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.”

    You asked, “Since christians are still susceptible to sin even with Jesus dwelling within their heart, does god have to remove it in order to keep heaven sin-free?” So, based on what I said before, yes God removes the stony hearts of those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, but one had to choose to accept the gift of salvation from Jesus Christ.

    You asked, “If he is so willing to remove ones sinful nature in the transition from here to there, why doesn’t he just do that when we’re born and that way no one will have to end up in hell?” Psalm 51:5 states “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Since the mother is a sinner, the baby that she bears will inevitably be a sinner too. This arises from the fact that the fruit of a tree is not separate from the tree. If a person has a plum tree, it will produce plums, not bananas. It is only natural. I can’t expect God to make my plum tree produce bananas. It goes contrary to nature. The same happens for when we are born into the world. But, God can provide a way out of this madness. God says accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal savior. Then a person will have their spirit revived and the Holy Spirit will live in the person. If God is in us, that means we are in God and we produce Godly fruit. John 15:1-8 states “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”

    There’s a lot of information that you can glean from the above passage, but notice that Jesus tells Christians to remain in Him, that means a person must choose God and choose to stay with God. Just because a person is given a new heart at birth, doesn’t mean that they will remain in God for the remainder of their lives. Free will and choice is very important here. God loved satan and named him Lucifer, which means “light-bringer”. But, satan chose to hate God and reject God’s love. There are many people who join satan and choose to reject God and His love.

    You asked, “If free will means having a choice between good and evil, what does free will in heaven mean?” Right, free will on earth means having to choose between good and evil. Once a person chooses good and goes to heaven, there will be no more choice of good versus evil because all people, demons, and the devil that are evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Also, God will create a new heavens and a new earth. Isaiah 65:17-25 states, “”See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain, nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.”

    You asked, “If one does not believe, how can one make themselves believe enough to pray effectively? I can say the words, but they would have no meaning. Does that matter to God?” God will meet you where you are at. So, say whatever words work for you. Follow the glimmer of light shining in your life, not darkness. The way you can distinguish light from darkness is simple. In darkness you are stumbling, unsure of where to go, unsure of what to do, uncertain of the consequences. In the light, you know the next step to take and you are sure of where that next step will lead you. You don’t know the big picture because you are walking by faith, but you do know the next step. Hosea 6:3 states, “Then shall we know, IF we follow on to know the LORD…” Basically, you will not know until you follow on to know the Lord. But, once again that IF means you have the choice. None of us would be able to believe in the existence of God if it had not been for Jesus coming to us and standing at the door of our hearts knocking. For Revelation 3:20 states: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” To hear God’s voice means to hear His Word, which is found in the Bible and which I have stated on this forum. If you neglect God’s word, you neglect God. No one can be accepted apart from their word. ie. I can’t call a friend a friend apart from his/her words. If I don’t believe or care for or listen to his/her words, how can I call them friends? So, start with Revelation 3:20, ask God to make this real to you and understandable to you. Begin to communicate with Him based on what you know about Him. John 14:21 states, “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

  164. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:00 pm 164.DBD said …

    Severin,

    Read what I wrote to JohnnyP to understand lying and wrongdoing.

    Believe what you want to believe. You do have free will. People can choose to believe lies to be truth or to believe truth. But, I just wanted to say that God did “inform [you] CLEARLY and UNDOUBTEDLY what [He] WANTS from [you]!” You’ve heard it from me via this forum and from God via His Bible. Hosea 4:6 states “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because they have rejected knowledge…” Don’t reject this knowledge.

  165. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:07 pm 165.Lou said …

    164.DBD said …

    “But, I just wanted to say that God did “inform [you] CLEARLY and UNDOUBTEDLY what [He] WANTS from [you]!” You’ve heard it from me via this forum and from God via His Bible.”

    This is a perfect example of delusion. First you wrote “God did “inform [you]…” Then you write “You’ve heard it from me [and]…via His Bible.” If God directly informed me or anybody else of anything, then it wouldn’t be necessary for you and a Bible to do it. God NEVER directly informed me of anything. And seeing that you and I are the same, then he didn’t inform you either.

  166. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:30 pm 166.DBD said …

    Lou (165),

    You and I are not the same. God is in me and I am in God. In John 14:15-17, Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” I am in Jesus Christ! That is who I am.

    What you said is delusion. I say the truth. John 15:26-27 states, “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.” So, I am testifying to you all about truth NOT lies. Delusion is believing lies to be truth. I believe Jesus to be truth. Jesus states in John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If JESUS=TRUTH, then testifying about JESUS is testifying TRUTH. Therefore, there exists NO delusion for me. Anyone who rejects the truth that I say, rejects knowledge of God. Hosea 4:6 states “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because they have rejected knowledge…” Don’t reject this knowledge.

  167. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:35 pm 167.Lou said …

    163.DBD said

    Why don’t you understand that pasting line after line of scripture is absolutely pointless? It is no different that you saying “I am God.” In other words, it’s only a book written my men that is used to coerce people to believe in something that makes no sense, and for which there is no personal experience.

  168. on 05 Apr 2011 at 6:39 pm 168.Lou said …

    166.DBD said …

    Lou (165),

    “You and I are not the same.”

    Yes, beyond any doubt, we are EXACTLY the same. If god spoke to you, then he would speak to me.

    I don’t reject knowledge, I reject superstition and delusion.

    Hitler also thought he did his work in the name of god. Like you are, Hitler was delusional.

  169. on 05 Apr 2011 at 7:15 pm 169.DBD said …

    Lou (167),

    You have to admit that I am being true to who I say I am. If I say that God is in me, then should not my words be God’s words, so in that case, pasting line after line of scripture would NOT be pointless. I’m just being true to who I say I am. You can’t prove that I’m NOT being true to who I say I am. It is different than saying “I am god”. That is blasphemy. Saying I am god is in direct contradiction with the loving God commandment. I am in UNITY with God, not the same person as God. Being in God, means being unified in words, thoughts and actions with God, not being a god. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The breath of God brings life. It brought life to man and it brings life to Scripture. God’s word is Jesus. The bible is the only living book in the library of congress. John 1:14 states “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” It may have been written by men, but it was said by God. 2 Peter 1:20 states, “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.” Men are annointed by God to do work on earth. God doesn’t do work that He could annoint man to do. Writing and speaking God’s word on earth was given to men to do.

    Lou (168),

    We are not exactly the same. God speaks to everyone, but the one who is changed is the one who believes what God spoke. John 14:23-24 states, “Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” I believe in Jesus and His words, therefore, God has come to me and made His home with me. I am different from you because God is in me, due to the choices I have made.

  170. on 05 Apr 2011 at 7:30 pm 170.Lou said …

    169.DBD said …

    Lou (167),

    All of what you wrote is nothing but convoluted, nonsensical, delusional ranting. I’m not going to waste anymore time responding to it.

    Lou (168),

    “We are not exactly the same.”

    Yes, we are. We were born with a “clean slate.”

    I was raised attending a Christian church, Sunday school, and vacation bible school. In all those years the preacher and many Sunday school teachers spoke to me, but God never spoke to me. God did not choose to speak to you and not to me. God did not speak to either of us.

    “God speaks to everyone, but the one who is changed is the one who believes what God spoke.”

    Why can’t you understand this – for the last time – GOD HAS NEVER SPOKEN TO ME. I know, I was there. And if god didn’t speak to me, then he didn’t speak to you. Considered in the context of your religion, the only way you can be different than me in that respect is for you to be either God or Jesus. You aren’t THAT delusional, are you?

  171. on 05 Apr 2011 at 8:19 pm 171.DBD said …

    Lou (170),

    God does speak to me. Most times God, Himself, doesn’t speak in an audible voice for a person to hear with their ears because speaking to the heart is way more effective and important. God only spoke to me once audibly and that was because He needed me to escape danger. He said the same phrase several times. I obeyed and as a result, I escaped great danger. When I hear through my ears a Pastor say something or read with my eyes what even an atheist writes that resonates in my spirit, I know that God spoke to me through that person. An example is Mr.Q’s comment in #22 of this forum, “I was just pointing out that you are trying to instill god into people’s lives using the well rehearsed “fire and brimstone” method.” Shortly, after that I apologized to everyone on this forum, saying in comment #34, “To everyone on this forum: I have gone through a change as a result of speaking to all of you and would like to ask for your forgiveness. I heard a word from God, but I didn’t completely understand it until I attempted to do it. I must admit, that I was embracing a gospel of condemnation as MrQ pointed out, rather than a gospel of grace. I saw myself as a christian and I saw you all as atheists, but instead I was supposed to see us all as humans and discuss the word of God from an experiential christian/humanist point of view. So, my responses below are an attempt to reconcile that new revelation knowlege I have gained.”

    When God speaks to the heart of a christian, the christian gains an enormous amount of information in like a nanosecond. I’d rather hear God that way, because I get a large packet of valuable information in a very short time interval. To explain what God says when He speaks in that way would take much longer to describe using words. God speaks to all people through His written word. A person will never hear God if they reject His written word. There have been times where I have asked God a question, in an attempt to hear from Him in my heart, but I rejected His written word. At those times, I couldn’t hear God. The moment, I embrace God and His word, I hear Him. There have been times where God directly intervened through a Pastor’s sermon to stop me from believing a lie that I was just told. It is amazing how much God will talk to you, if you pay attention to his word. Proverbs 3:1-7 states, “My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.”

  172. on 05 Apr 2011 at 9:12 pm 172.Severin said …

    164 DBD
    “You’ve heard it from me via this forum and from God via His Bible.”

    You might be an honest man, and you probably are, but I don’t trust you when you speak about god.
    Not that I think that you are lying or cheating. Not that I think you are trying to persuade me in something YOU don’t believe! I honestly don’t!
    I just think you are not right. So, I can accept existance of god only because you say he exists.
    To believe such things like existance of a deity, I need a lot more than ANYONE’s word, be it my mother or my daughter, or Einstein, or… you name who…
    I can not go against my mind (logic, experience, knowledge).
    And I am very sceptical in all other things, too.

    I ESPECIALLY can not accept existance of Biblical god!
    If BIBLICAL god existed, and addressed to me personally, and proved himself a god by doing some miracle, then I would believe he EXISTS, but I wuld never ACCEPT him.
    Hell?
    Fine!
    Better hell, than accepting and justifying monstruos god’s deeds described in Bible.
    Better hell, than (by accepting his horrible deeds), to feel as his accomplice.
    My conscience would not endure it!
    How could I accept (+worship!) someone who ordered ripping of pregant women? Someone who killed millions, including innocent children (in big flood)? A creature who „tested“ Abraham’s faith by ordering him to slaughter his son?
    That is not a god by my taste.

    Bible is full of idiocies that do not fit reality, so – lacky we! – Bible CAN NOT be a „word of god“, unless that god was an idiot.
    Maybe I could, somehow, accept the fact that god was a cruel lunatic (without accepting his lunacy!), but to have an idiot for a god (allmighty, all knowing…) does not fit my common sense.

    Bible does not prove existance of god.

  173. on 05 Apr 2011 at 9:24 pm 173.Severin said …

    …and citing Bible to me has no sense.

  174. on 05 Apr 2011 at 9:32 pm 174.Severin said …

    169 DBD
    „2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    Did he say: „ALL Scripture….USEFUL for TEACHING….RIGHTEUSNESS…..GOOD WORK.“?

    How about this one:

    Hosea chapter 13
    Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

    Good work!

  175. on 06 Apr 2011 at 5:45 am 175.Severin said …

    163 DBD
    “There is a prevailing stereotype that fat people are ugly, but that’s not true. Ugliness really comes from character traits, not physical stature.“

    Are you so naive, or just pretending?

    When I was a young employee (about 40 years ago), my lady boss tryed to seduce me, pretty directly, when we were together on a conference: 15 years older than me, drunk, smelling on brandy and sweat, and ugly like hell. She wanted me to sleep with her.
    I had to use a lot of „diplomacy“ to get out of situation!
    Including, of course, a lot of lies.

    Should I have been honest with her?
    Should I have told her that my „mechanism“ just would not „work“ with her, that I had no lust, specifically for her, because she had wrinkled skin, big nose, hairs under her lips, and practically looked more like a man than like a lady?

    She was a good personality, and today, after 40 years, we are still good friends and see each other. I like her a lot, and she likes me a lot, and is a good friend with my wife, and loves my daughter.
    Imagine how would this nice and long lasting friendship end if I did not use some lies 40 years ago!

  176. on 06 Apr 2011 at 11:21 am 176.JohnnyP said …

    RE: DBD #163

    Well, I do appreciate the time you took to answer my questions in #160 and the very apparent sincerity with which you write.

    If I ask you where you get all that deep insight from I imagine you’ll say from the Holy Spirit. How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit? Because the message resonates in your soul, you’ve said (to paraphrase). I totally get that. But the message doesn’t resonate with me. It doesn’t connect. It’s kind of like what Lou is saying. If god is speaking to me directly, or through you as you’ve suggested, it doesn’t feel like it. And if “feeling it” is how one knows it’s god speaking, than he’s never spoken to me because I never felt it.

    I consider myself to be more of a skeptic than an atheist. I’m open to the idea of a deity, so it’s not that the message is being rejected by a stubborn or closed mind. I just need more evidence than words (from a book or a person’s mouth) can provide, because I find much of the bible to be illogical, inconsistent, idiocy that my logical sensibilities shoot down. I’m not saying this to insult or offend you—like I said, I appreciate your sincerity and respect that—it’s just a way of explaining why I’m at where I’m at.

  177. on 06 Apr 2011 at 1:28 pm 177.DBD said …

    Severin (172),

    Undoubtedly your skeptism is a special quality of yours given you by God. We need more Christians to be skeptical, rather than just go on embracing things people say without checking up on it, whether Christian or non-Christian. However, what I’ve noticed about you is that your skeptism is a bit lazy, which isn’t very good. If you are to be skeptical, at least be willing to work hard and be well studied. In 2 Timothy 2:15, God tells us to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” This is no offense to you. Just something for you to consider, so that you will improve in your life. I am very skeptical too, but I like to test and prove all things as well. God tells us to do this too in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

    You said, “I can not go against my mind (logic, experience, knowledge).” The bible says in Romans 3:4, “Let God be true, and every human being a liar.” I think you would agree that ALL HUMANS LIE. So, that means you lie. I lie. We all lie. Don’t lies come from OUR minds? So, if you CAN’T go against your mind, then you CAN’T go against a lie. So, how do you know what you are or aren’t lying about? It could be that you are lying about God.

    Just a question, do you know what Hell is? Hell doesn’t exist yet. It is pending judgement for the devil, demons, and wicked people who followed Him never accepting Jesus Christ. A miniature example of Hell is seen in the judgment that occurred for the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you remember, Lot, his wife, and two daughters escaped the judgement that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah. Fire and brimestone fell from the sky and consumed all that was on the land and its inhabitants. That is similar to how it will be when judgment for the devil, demons, wicked people. Hell will literally be on earth in an act of purifying the earth and then a new earth will be created for the righteous. Only the righteous will live forever with God. The devil, demons, and wicked will exist no more.

    Severin (174),

    Let’s analyze the verse you’ve found in Hosea 13:16. Here’s how you STUDY! The key to understanding why all of those bad things happened to those people has to do with the first phrase, “Samaria shall bear her guilt”. What does guilt mean? “Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realises or believes–accurately or not–that they have violated a moral standard, and bear sole responsibility for that violation.” (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt). So, Samaria realizes/believes that they have violated a moral standard and bears sole responsibility for that violation. What were the moral standards that they violated? Well, you can’t cherry pick a verse and ignore the verses before this one. You must read verses 1-15 to understand the moral standards they violated. Verse 2 tells us the violation, “Now they sin more and more; they make idols for themselves from their silver, cleverly fashioned images, all of them the work of craftsmen. It is said of these people, “They offer human sacrifices! They kiss calf-idols!”" Verses 4,5, and 6 tells us why they were wrong, “But I have been the LORD your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. I cared for you in the wilderness, in the land of burning heat. When I fed them, they were satisfied; when they were satisfied, they became proud; then they forgot me.”

    What if you helped someone and they treated you like you did nothing for them? Is it just/right for you to be treated like trash, when you were someone’s savior? The people under the old covenant were told that if they break one law under it, they would have curses fall upon them. Not because God hates them, but because God loves them and is fair. If a person raped and murdered a child, wouldn’t you seek justice and seek the death penalty for the rapist and murderer. Well, the same is the case for what God did under the old covenant.

    Have you played the wack-a-mole game? When one mole comes up, even though you hit it and think you’ve won, another mole comes up, when you go to hit that one, another mole pops up. Well that’s what God found himself doing under the old covenant. The mole is sin. And even though God could judge someone for one sin, then another sin would pop up that would need to be judged, then another sin, and so on. Unless a person’s heart is changed, sin won’t be defeated. That’s why Jesus came, to change the heart’s of man from evil to good desires. In verse 14, God says, “I will deliver this people from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?” Why did God say that, but then allow verse 16. God was prophesying in verse 14, what God would be able to do for us after Jesus came.

    Now just to analyze the judgement found in verse 16 in a little more detail. If we first read verses 9 and 10, we read, “You are destroyed, Israel, because you are against me, against your helper. Where is your king, that he may save you? Where are your rulers in all your towns, of whom you said, ‘Give me a king and princes’?” Then verse 16 states, “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” So, taking these three verses together, we realize that these are a people who did not rely on God, who could save them, rather they chose to exalt their own kings and rulers who couldn’t even prevent an assault on them from cruel enemies of theirs. It was the cruel enemies who caused them to “fall by the sword,” caused “their little ones [to] be dashed to the ground, caused “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open.” God didn’t do this. At the request of these sinful people, they brought judgment on themselves by relying on sources other than the one and only true God who really could save them. The moral of this story is that we should not deny God, who is the only One who can save us. On this earth, people exalt man above God and time and time again, man fails to even meet their own expectations, causing turmoil for themselves and others.

    If you are able to learn to STUDY in this way and in a more exhaustive way than this, you will genuinely learn about God. Rather than just cherry picking a verse, not fully reading it, you will read the whole bible and read other translations of it, read the original hebrew and greek, learn about the historical accounts of this time and so on. STUDYING is essential, but not the only ingredient to understanding the Scriptures. You need Jesus. You need the Holy Spirit. You need the Father.

    Severin (175)

    Yes, you should be truthful at all times. I’m glad that everything worked out for you. I’ve lied before, but things did work out. That doesn’t mean that God wants you to sin. When God told Abraham that he would have a son, Abraham and Sarah (his wife) agreed to have Abraham have sex with his female servant, who bore his child called Ishmael. They did this because Sarah (his wife) had a DEAD womb due to how old she was. But, nothing is impossible for God. Even though Abraham sought to fix the problem of his wife’s DEAD womb by having sex with another much younger woman, God had his own solution. In fact, Sarah had a baby, Isaac at the age of 99 years old. It was from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that Jesus came. And through Jesus came everyone in the world who would believe in Jesus Christ. Even though I wasn’t born Jewish, I am born again through Jesus Christ, who is the seed of Abraham. And all of the promises made to Abraham, now belong to me, since I am now an heir of the promises and covenants made to Abraham. I didn’t have to be born Jewish, to be an heir of the promises and covenants made to Abraham. I only had to be accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior and become a child of God. Romans 8:28 states “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” God works everything for the good of those who love Him. My father cheated on his wife to sleep with my mother to have me. He lied to my mother saying that he couldn’t have children and that he was single. My father wanted me aborted. But, here I am. If my father were following the ten commandments, he wouldn’t have committed adultery with my mother and I wouldn’t have been born, he wouldn’t have lied, and he wouldn’t have suggested I be murdered. But, all of that worked out for my good and to the good of the people who I’ve interacted with because I’m alive. God worked all of that sin out to the good of those who love Him and have been called according to his purpose.

  178. on 06 Apr 2011 at 1:52 pm 178.Lou said …

    177.DBD said

    I’m not going to quote all of your comments, but I have this reply that seems well suited for them:

    If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with b.s.

    “But, all of that worked out for my good and to the good of the people who I’ve interacted with because I’m alive. God worked all of that sin out to the good of those who love Him and have been called according to his purpose.”

    There’s nothing like rationalizing irrational beliefs and ideas.

  179. on 06 Apr 2011 at 2:07 pm 179.DBD said …

    JohnnyP (176),

    Jesus said to THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN HIM, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” “Jesus answered [in John 14:6], “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So, Jesus is the truth, but in order to know Him, you must continue in His word, the bible. You must do the very thing you say you can’t do, when you said, “I just need more evidence than words (from a book or a person’s mouth) can provide.” Hebrews 11:1 states that Faith is the evidence of things that are not perceived by the senses. God is not perceived by the senses, so faith is the evidence of God. Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus said in John 14:21, “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” I needed God’s word, first, which produced faith in me, which caused God to reveal himself to me.

    You need to be willing to embrace something to have it. If I offered you one million dollars, you wouldn’t have it, unless you embraced it. So, you’ll have to embrace God’s word via the bible, Jesus, and the commandments of loving others as Jesus loved us, loving others as you love yourself, and loving God with all of your heart, soul, strength, mind.

    Remember faith is evidence. Evidence comes from hearing the word of God. You just need to hear more of the word of God. I can send you some websites to check out some of the ministers who will teach you more of the word of God. Listen to them and you will build your faith. Make sure you back up what they say with what is found in the bible, if you can’t then don’t be so apt to accept it. There are a few times where they might get political or make mistakes. Hey, they are human too! Proof only comes after you’ve stacked up all of the evidences coherently. Each of these websites, have free media available to view online to learn more about God. http://www.kcm.org, http://www.creflodollarministries.org, http://www.intouch.org, http://www.joycemeyer.org, http://www.bennyhinn.org, http://www.ustream.tv/user/phstream/videos, http://www.josephprince.org, http://www.amazingfacts.org/Television/tabid/75/Default.aspx, http://www.victoryinchrist.org/victory-tv, http://www.joelosteen.com, and http://www.crystalcathedral.org

    Follow the glimmer of light shining in your life, not darkness. The way you can distinguish light from darkness is simple. In darkness you are stumbling, unsure of where to go, unsure of what to do, uncertain of the consequences. In the light, you know the next step to take and you are sure of where that next step will lead you. You don’t know the big picture because you are walking by faith, but you do know the next step. I’ve given you the next step. Have a blessed journey. God is waiting for you!

  180. on 06 Apr 2011 at 2:24 pm 180.DPK said …

    DBD,
    Thank you for thanking the time to share your thoughts and observations. You are obviously a deeply committed and sincere person, and unlike many religious people I have met, it seems you have spent a great deal of time soul searching and looking for answers that you seem to have found for yourself in Christianity.
    But, (you KNEW there would be a but, right?) in reading your posts, it is obvious to me that the process you went through to accept this belief that god has a personal relationship with you, is exactly the same process that one goes through to be brainwashed and indoctrinated into a cult.
    I have no doubt your feelings are real, but they come from within you, not without. The evidence for this is that many, many other people have had the same type of spiritual “awakening”, but to different “gods” or to more “universal” levels of heightened consciousness, absent of gods.
    You quote from the bible a lot, but you also ignore other people who supply quotes from the bible that contradict what you say about the nature of your god. That is because the bible is such an eclectic collection of “stuff” that it can (and does) be used to support almost any position or any hypothesis. That is why most skeptics must discount it as any sort of authority on anything. If nothing else, the nature of the bible itself discredits it as being inspired by a perfect being, because it is not perfect, not even close.
    You seem to discount the fact that one’s ability to believe or not believe in a supreme being is simply a matter of choice. If you decide to believe then god will come into your heart and you will. To me, this is like saying “if you tell yourself a lie, eventually you will come to accept it as true”. This is human nature and is evidenced by the process you have outlined yourself at great length here about changing your behavior to change your habits to change your expectations to change you thought process. This is basically brainwashing yourself into believing what you want to believe.
    I do think it takes a certain kind of person to do this, and other types of people cannot.
    I too, was raised in a religious household and was exposed to “god’s word.” My parents and siblings, were, and are, very devout religious people. But, even as a child, I never “got it”. While they would see the trappings of churches,statues, ceremonies and incantations as inspiring reverence and mystery, I saw only silliness. When they listened to a minister or priest preach and sermonize, I heard nonsense and falsehoods.
    Did god make me this way? Why do you think YOU are so special that YOU are chosen to hear god’s word, while so many of us are NOT. Why were YOU chosen to be saved, while 2/3rd of the world’s population is doomed? Remember, by your own faith, you believe that god made each of us in his own image.

  181. on 06 Apr 2011 at 2:24 pm 181.DBD said …

    JohnnyP,

    Another really good website is: http://www.moorelife.org/freedownloads.php

    Check out the Walking in the Light sermon too!

    We are in a war. We don’t see it, but we see the evidence of it. It is the fight between good and evil. The more you learn about God, you will defeat evil. The devil doesn’t want to lose you, but the devil has already lost you!

    Here are a series of videos explaining this cosmic conflict in more detail:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6YcmNWM_4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUWhpF1-Ixs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4YMZdUYzU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw-f3h7Uav8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGf_5bnLTgM

    This video explains what will happen at the end of the world: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-236603451790404943#

  182. on 06 Apr 2011 at 2:38 pm 182.DBD said …

    JohnnyP (176),

    Jesus said to THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN HIM, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” “Jesus answered [in John 14:6], “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So, Jesus is the truth, but in order to know Him, you must continue in His word, the bible. You must do the very thing you say you can’t do, when you said, “I just need more evidence than words (from a book or a person’s mouth) can provide.” Hebrews 11:1 states that Faith is the evidence of things that are not perceived by the senses. God is not perceived by the senses, so faith is the evidence of God. Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus said in John 14:21, “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” I needed God’s word, first, which produced faith in me, which caused God to reveal himself to me.

    You need to be willing to embrace something to have it. If I offered you one million dollars, you wouldn’t have it, unless you embraced it. So, you’ll have to embrace God’s word via the bible, Jesus, and the commandments of loving others as Jesus loved us, loving others as you love yourself, and loving God with all of your heart, soul, strength, mind.

    Remember faith is evidence. Evidence comes from hearing the word of God. You just need to hear more of the word of God. I can send you some websites to check out some of the ministers who will teach you more of the word of God. Listen to them and you will build your faith. Make sure you back up what they say with what is found in the bible, if you can’t then don’t be so apt to accept it. There are a few times where they might get political or make mistakes. Hey, they are human too! Proof only comes after you’ve stacked up all of the evidences coherently. Each of these websites, have free media available to view online to learn more about God. www(dot)kcm(dot)org, www(dot)creflodollarministries(dot)org, www(dot)intouch(dot)org, www(dot)joycemeyer(dot)org, www(dot)bennyhinn(dot)org, www(dot)ustream(dot)tv/user/phstream/videos, www(dot)josephprince(dot)org, www(dot)amazingfacts(dot)org/Television/tabid/75/Default(dot)aspx, www(dot)victoryinchrist(dot)org/victory-tv, www(dot)joelosteen(dot)com, and www(dot)crystalcathedral(dot)org

    Another really good website is: www(dot)moorelife(dot)org/freedownloads(dot)php

    Check out the Walking in the Light sermon too!

    We are in a war. We don’t see it, but we see the evidence of it. It is the fight between good and evil. The more you learn about God, you will defeat evil. The devil doesn’t want to lose you, but the devil has already lost you!

    Here are a series of videos explaining this cosmic conflict in more detail:

    www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=vh6YcmNWM_4
    www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=uUWhpF1-Ixs
    www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=AG4YMZdUYzU
    www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=hw-f3h7Uav8
    www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=jGf_5bnLTgM

    This video explains what will happen at the end of the world: video(dot)google(dot)com/videoplay?docid=-236603451790404943#

    Replace the (dot) with .

    My past posts weren’t immediately accepted because I had too many links, so I took out the . in the addresses and replaced them with (dot)

    Follow the glimmer of light shining in your life, not darkness. The way you can distinguish light from darkness is simple. In darkness you are stumbling, unsure of where to go, unsure of what to do, uncertain of the consequences. In the light, you know the next step to take and you are sure of where that next step will lead you. You don’t know the big picture because you are walking by faith, but you do know the next step. I’ve given you the next step. Have a blessed journey. God is waiting for you!

  183. on 06 Apr 2011 at 3:40 pm 183.DBD said …

    DPK (180),

    You said, “is exactly the same process that one goes through to be brainwashed and indoctrinated into a cult.”

    A cult is a group of people who force others to conform to their beliefs and disconnect from society to satisfy the cult’s selfish desires. Christianity gives people choice and isn’t normally a cult, unless extremists force their selfish desires on their parishioners. I do not belong to a cult. I have chosen God. I have chosen truth. I am not brainwashed or indoctrinated although I USED to be, until I got wise and proved God for myself. As a young christian, I just accepted and regurgitated what I was told hurting others. I was wrong about a lot of my beliefs. In fact, you’ll find that the Pharisees and the Saudicess were like that too! When Jesus came he corrected them and rebuked them. They tried to kill Him for that. Saul before he became Paul thought that he was killing Christians in the service of God. So, you’re right. There is a danger in indoctrination. That is why God tells each person “as you have always obeyed…continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.”

    Working out your salvation in fear and trembling means that as we live our lives a lot of negative circumstances occur that cause us to fear and tremble, but even though you are in fear and trembling work out your salvation anyway. I had fear of my fellow christians not accepting the word of God that I knew to be true. As you WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION, you will acquire soundness of mind, deliverance, healing, preservation, prosperity, and safety.

    Salvation has to be worked out, not just accepted. That’s why I’ve said over and over again STUDY!

    You said, “The evidence for this is that many, many other people have had the same type of spiritual “awakening”, but to different “gods” or to more “universal” levels of heightened consciousness, absent of gods.”

    That is not evidence. You’ve observed their religious traditions, fascinations, and infatuations. Group think is very common among groups of people. But, I’m unique, I don’t try to follow people, never have, never will. My evidence or faith comes from hearing the word of GOD, the word of LOVE, the word of TRUTH, the word of THE WAY, the word of LIFE!

    You said, “You quote from the bible a lot, but you also ignore other people who supply quotes from the bible that contradict what you say about the nature of your god.” I do not do that. I’ve explained countless times that cherry picking verses will get you no where. I demonstrated an example of how to study to Severin in comment number 177.

    —EXCERPT—
    “Let’s analyze the verse you’ve found in Hosea 13:16. Here’s how you STUDY! The key to understanding why all of those bad things happened to those people has to do with the first phrase, “Samaria shall bear her guilt”. What does guilt mean? “Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realises or believes–accurately or not–that they have violated a moral standard, and bear sole responsibility for that violation.” (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt). So, Samaria realizes/believes that they have violated a moral standard and bears sole responsibility for that violation. What were the moral standards that they violated? Well, you can’t cherry pick a verse and ignore the verses before this one. You must read verses 1-15 to understand the moral standards they violated. Verse 2 tells us the violation, “Now they sin more and more; they make idols for themselves from their silver, cleverly fashioned images, all of them the work of craftsmen. It is said of these people, “They offer human sacrifices! They kiss calf-idols!”" Verses 4,5, and 6 tells us why they were wrong, “But I have been the LORD your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. I cared for you in the wilderness, in the land of burning heat. When I fed them, they were satisfied; when they were satisfied, they became proud; then they forgot me.”

    What if you helped someone and they treated you like you did nothing for them? Is it just/right for you to be treated like trash, when you were someone’s savior? The people under the old covenant were told that if they break one law under it, they would have curses fall upon them. Not because God hates them, but because God loves them and is fair. If a person raped and murdered a child, wouldn’t you seek justice and seek the death penalty for the rapist and murderer. Well, the same is the case for what God did under the old covenant.

    Have you played the wack-a-mole game? When one mole comes up, even though you hit it and think you’ve won, another mole comes up, when you go to hit that one, another mole pops up. Well that’s what God found himself doing under the old covenant. The mole is sin. And even though God could judge someone for one sin, then another sin would pop up that would need to be judged, then another sin, and so on. Unless a person’s heart is changed, sin won’t be defeated. That’s why Jesus came, to change the heart’s of man from evil to good desires. In verse 14, God says, “I will deliver this people from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?” Why did God say that, but then allow verse 16. God was prophesying in verse 14, what God would be able to do for us after Jesus came.

    Now just to analyze the judgement found in verse 16 in a little more detail. If we first read verses 9 and 10, we read, “You are destroyed, Israel, because you are against me, against your helper. Where is your king, that he may save you? Where are your rulers in all your towns, of whom you said, ‘Give me a king and princes’?” Then verse 16 states, “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” So, taking these three verses together, we realize that these are a people who did not rely on God, who could save them, rather they chose to exalt their own kings and rulers who couldn’t even prevent an assault on them from cruel enemies of theirs. It was the cruel enemies who caused them to “fall by the sword,” caused “their little ones [to] be dashed to the ground, caused “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open.” God didn’t do this. At the request of these sinful people, they brought judgment on themselves by relying on sources other than the one and only true God who really could save them. The moral of this story is that we should not deny God, who is the only One who can save us. On this earth, people exalt man above God and time and time again, man fails to even meet their own expectations, causing turmoil for themselves and others.

    If you are able to learn to STUDY in this way and in a more exhaustive way than this, you will genuinely learn about God. Rather than just cherry picking a verse, not fully reading it, you will read the whole bible and read other translations of it, read the original hebrew and greek, learn about the historical accounts of this time and so on. STUDYING is essential, but not the only ingredient to understanding the Scriptures. You need Jesus. You need the Holy Spirit. You need the Father.”
    —END OF EXCERPT—

    The devil knows the word of God and cherry picked them too. I explained that too in comment numbers 88 and 106.

    —EXCERPT—
    “To ask God to do something against His word means that the person is NOT one with God and God’s words does NOT abide in the person. So, to ask God to play your game or to go through your test is against God’s word. Your tactic was already tried before by satan when he tempted Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7, “Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”"

    “No, the devil attempted to test God; the devil wanted to test God’s ability to do what He said He could do. The devil was specifically attempting to get Jesus to do evil. If Jesus had taken the devil’s tests Jesus would have committed sins. The devil was asking Jesus to PROVE that He was the Son of God by jumping off of the temple’s highest point and commanding angels to save Him; this is a temptation of the pride of life, which is evil and is a sin. If Jesus had pride in his authority over angels, He would have jumped off the building to prove to the devil that he was as powerful as His word stated. A person who constantly proves his/her authority to others is fulfilling his/her own pride that they have that higher position. When Jesus said, DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST he meant DO NOT TEST GOD’S ABILITY TO DO WHAT HE SAID HE CAN DO. So, the devil was basically asking God to prove that He really is God and that he really is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.”
    —END OF EXCERPT—

    I’ve said time and time again on this forum that the WHOLE BIBLE must be STUDIED in context. It must be rightly divided? You must ask yourself, Who’s he talking to? What is he saying? Why is he saying it? How does it relate to me? and so on…

    You said, “To me, this is like saying “if you tell yourself a lie, eventually you will come to accept it as true”. This is human nature and is evidenced by the process you have outlined yourself at great length here about changing your behavior to change your habits to change your expectations to change you thought process. This is basically brainwashing yourself into believing what you want to believe.
    I do think it takes a certain kind of person to do this, and other types of people cannot.”

    The point I was making is that the things we do, are a direct result of what words we take in. We all take in words from the time we were first born. We see and hear words from our families, friends, television, music, employers, fellow employees, books, strangers, billboards, textbooks, and magazines. The question is, not are you taking in words that are forming your thoughts, but are the words that you are taking in truth or lie? The word of God is truth. Since you’re inevitably going to take in words, take in true words, not false words!

    You said, “Did god make me this way? Why do you think YOU are so special that YOU are chosen to hear god’s word, while so many of us are NOT. Why were YOU chosen to be saved, while 2/3rd of the world’s population is doomed? Remember, by your own faith, you believe that god made each of us in his own image.”

    Yes, God doesn’t want you vainly following religious practices and traditions. He wants you to cultivate a relationship with Him because He loves you. To SonofaPreacherman I explained, “Thanks for taking the time to explain your past to me. Sure, I understand that you have come from an extremely religious heritage. I’m sure from your extensive bible studies, you remember that the Pharisees and Sauducees were fundamentalist religious zealots whom Jesus constantly had to rebuke. Christianity is often times overshadowed by religiousity. There may have been a lot of pain that you incurred from being in such an environment, but don’t take it out on God. God loves all of His children, but He does have a report card to deliver to His children possessing various favorable and unfavorable religious personalities. Read Revelation Chapters 2-3. We are currently in the spiritual age of the Church of Laodicea, but many christians have religious personalities that run the gamut of any of the seven churches listed in Revelation Chapters 2-3.”

    All in all, God wants to save you too. I’m not the only one He cares for and loves. You sound sincere. Keep asking questions. Eventually, you’ll find that God is the only true God and that God’s word is the only true word.

  184. on 06 Apr 2011 at 3:59 pm 184.Lou said …

    Is anybody really reading all of that?

  185. on 06 Apr 2011 at 4:38 pm 185.DPK said …

    I would like to, and perhaps will find the time later to do that. If nothing else, it is obvious to me that DBD is sincere, so I have to respect that. One quite early in his dissertation hit me though:

    “I do not belong to a cult. I have chosen God. I have chosen truth. I am not brainwashed or indoctrinated although I USED to be, until I got wise and proved God for myself.”

    Sounds exactly like what a cult member would say.

    DBD, not trying to just dis you, but being outside of your delusion makes it so much easier to dismiss you as a nutjob, and I really don’t mean to do that. It’s just I’ve heard all this stuff before, and sorry.. god is not speaking to me through your words. If god gave me my (admittedly feeble) intellect, than it is god that is telling me not to believe you. Didn’t god say something about “seek only the truth” and discard that which is false? Everything you claim, when compared to my real observations about how the world actually works… seems false to me. I can’t really change that, it is how I perceive it. I’m sure your god would not want me to abandon my faculties of reason and accept what my brain (which he provided me) is simply not true.
    I think Mark Twain said it best, “Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.”

  186. on 06 Apr 2011 at 6:58 pm 186.DBD said …

    DPK (185),

    Do you ever wonder where the thoughts you have come from? Whose words inform your thoughts? For example, you gave a quote from Mark Twain to define faith. “Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.” God also gave you a definition of faith from Hebrews 11:1 in the bible. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, it is the evidence of things not perceived by the senses.” Let’s imagine for a moment that I’m right and God is real and truth. If this is the case, you’ve just rejected knowledge of God for knowledge of Mark Twain. Mark Twain is obviously not a god, he’s human just like me and you. So, you’d rather take the words of a man who is dead, than God who is eternal? 1 Corinthians 3:18-19 states, “Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.”

    The quote you used by Mark Twain is foolish. There is already a word that defines believing something you know ain’t true, that word is deception! Deception is defined as the act to propagate beliefs that are not true!!! (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception) So, DPK and Mark Twain are both deceived because they say that faith=deception! I know webster would not agree with you.

    It is normal for us to hear and read words and take them in and form thoughts with them. Just make sure that the words you base your thoughts off of are TRUE. God’s words are all true.

    You need to challenge your way of thinking. Where did it come from? The world. The world informs who you are today, not God. From the time you were a baby, words from the world were injected into your mind. Ever watch TV, talk to your friends/family/strangers, listen to Mark Twain quotes, read a book/magazine, watch a commercial, read junk mail, go to school, etc.? All are words from the world. Words from the world entered your mind and are entering your mind and will enter your mind, these words then become the way in which you think, your thinking then informs your feelings about things, your feelings impact the decisions you make, and the decisions you make then inform the actions you take, the actions you take then cause you to form certain habits, the habits you form cause you to arrive at a certain destination, which is in line with the world and opposed to God. The only way to NOT be in line with the world’s way of thinking is to start with God’s word and make God’s word first in your life. God’s words should inform your thinking, Godly thinking would inform your feelings, good feelings would inform your decisions, good decisions would inform your actions, good actions would result in Godly habits, Godly habits will cause you to be in a position to be at a destination that is aligned with what God wants. And you’ll have joy, peace, assurance, and freedom!

  187. on 06 Apr 2011 at 7:45 pm 187.DPK said …

    “Let’s imagine for a moment that I’m right and God is real and truth. If this is the case, you’ve just rejected knowledge of God for knowledge of Mark Twain.”

    Let’s imagine for a moment that I’m right and god is completely imaginary (which fits better with the OBSERVABLE evidence in the world). Then you have rejected knowledge of reality for false knowledge of god. Haven’t you?

    “There is already a word that defines believing something you know ain’t true, that word is deception!” There is another word that better defines it, that word is delusion!

    “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, it is the evidence of things not perceived by the senses.”
    This is one of the many noble sounding quotations that make no sense. “Faith” is not substance of anything. Faith is belief with complete lack of substance. It is not “evidence of things not perceived by the senses.” It is a complete lack of evidence. Just because you can quote a passage does not mean it is true, or even makes sense. That is why what you call Faith, I call deception.

    “So, you’d rather take the words of a man who is dead, than God who is eternal?”
    I would rather take the words of someone who was real, and who thought actually makes sense to me, than a god who is nothing more than a figment of someone’s imagination.

    “God’s words are all true.”
    DBD, you and others have been challenged many time here to explain the many, many passages in the bible that would seem to disprove the assertion that god’s words are all true. And many, many time you have avoided the subject or gave answers that require mind numbing mental gymnastics to try to accept. For an exhaustive listing of FACTUAL contradictions in the bible see:
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
    This alone is proof that you assertion that “god’s words are all true” is incorrect. If god’s words are all true, then they cannot contradict themselves… but they do.

    “Words from the world entered your mind and are entering your mind and will enter your mind, these words then become the way in which you think, your thinking then informs your feelings about things, your feelings impact the decisions you make, and the decisions you make then inform the actions you take, the actions you take then cause you to form certain habits, the habits you form cause you to arrive at a certain destination, which is in line with the world and opposed to God.”

    Again… cult thinking. Believe first (change your thinking) then your thinking will change your feelings, your feelings will change your decisions and habits… this is textbook indoctrination. It is sad that you can’t see that. I must change the way god CONSTRUCTED me to think, in order to convince myself that everything the evidence that HE left for me is telling me is wrong, and some holy book written by bronze age shepherds is truth. WHY? What is your reason to think god would make it so difficult and contrary to reason?
    Every step forward made by human kind has resulted from the process of examining evidence, proposing hypotheses, testing, evaluating and refining to determine what is REAL. This process has served mankind better than any other. You want us to discard that, and start with conclusions based on ancient superstitions, and then work and study and work harder to convince ourselves that THAT is reality. That, friend is the very definition of self-delusion.
    Sorry, can’t go there.

  188. on 06 Apr 2011 at 7:59 pm 188.TGHO said …

    @182 Lou,

    Nope. It’s all biblical quotes and special pleading to believe in a deity “just because”.

    I asked DBD before to provide actual evidence, all he could post was biblical references.

  189. on 06 Apr 2011 at 8:51 pm 189.DPK said …

    DBD…
    I know you believe that you have communication with god and he speaks to your heart. Please just answer the following simple questions with YES or NO answers according to what god tells you. Again, please do not babble on with quotes from scriptures. God only speaks the truth, and the truth is either yes, or no.
    Should we kill homosexuals?

    Should adulterer’s be put to death?

    Did Noah’s family have to commit incest in order to re-populate the world after the flood?

    Is it ok for us to slaughter every living thing in a country we invade if they worship a false god?

    Should a woman ever have authority over a man?

    Is it ok to own slaves?

    If we do own slaves, it is ok to beat them?

    Do we have to hate our Fathers and Mothers if they are not followers of Christ?

    If children are disrespectful to their parents, is it ok to kill them?

    Are there times when it is ok to sell our daughters into prostitution or slavery?

    I could go on, but that’s enough for now.
    I look forward to god’s response, through you, of course.

  190. on 06 Apr 2011 at 9:18 pm 190.Severin said …

    177 DBD
    Are you sure you are a normal human being?
    Are you aware of what you say?

    You are trying to justify unjustifiable.
    I am disgusting.

    God’s ripping of pregnant women and dashing of innocent children was O.K., because he repayed insults done to him – is THAT what you are saying?
    Unfortunately, it is!

    How can you live with that?
    Is it NORMAL to you that someone rips women and kills children when offended?
    It seems that it is.

    I would rather die than justify such deeds.
    Child’s smile and woman’s life are precious to me.

  191. on 07 Apr 2011 at 6:20 am 191.DBD said …

    DPK (187),

    You said, “Let’s imagine for a moment that I’m right and god is completely imaginary (which fits better with the OBSERVABLE evidence in the world).”

    There was a time when people falsely believed in spontaneous generation. For example, bananas left on a kitchen table would soon have fruit flies swarming around them. People thought that the fruit flies magically appeared without having an origin, but in fact those fruit flies came from eggs that were laid on the bananas prior to bringing them home from the grocery store.

    There is observable evidence for God. Nothing exists without a creator. A building needed an architect. A song needed a musician. Humans are manipulators of natural things to make artificial things. No human can make blood, that’s why we need transfusions. I don’t care how much a human understands how a cell works, a human can’t create one. If a human can’t even create blood, how could humans have evolved from animals or this earth have evolved from gases? The sun, stars, earth, plants, and humans had to have a creator? Psalm 8:1,3-6, state, “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name throughout the earth! When I look at your heavens, the creation of your fingers, the moon and the stars that you have set in place—what is a mortal that you remember him or the Son of Man that you take care of him? You have made him a little lower than yourself. You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him rule what your hands created. You have put everything under his control.”

    You said, “There is another word that better defines it, that word is delusion!” That is correct deception=delusion, but you said that faith=deception=delusion. Obviously, that is not true. That is the reason why you have a difficult time having faith in God, you believe that faith=deception=delusion. That is illogical. So, illogical results follow.

    You said, “”Faith” is not substance of anything. Faith is belief with complete lack of substance. It is not “evidence of things not perceived by the senses.” It is a complete lack of evidence. Just because you can quote a passage does not mean it is true, or even makes sense. That is why what you call Faith, I call deception.”

    If God is who He says He is, if He really is a Creator, then, the definition of faith does make sense. If one believes that God really does exist and is all powerful, then belief in God would mean a belief in all that He is able to do. He was able to create the heavens and the earth by His word. So then faith in God means belief that if you hope for something, God will cause it to become a substance. That’s powerful! Faith in God means that things that are in line with God’s will that are not currently manifest will become manifest if you believe and trust in God. In Mark 11:23, Jesus states, “I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.”

    You said, “For an exhaustive listing of FACTUAL contradictions in the bible see:
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html This alone is proof that you assertion that “god’s words are all true” is incorrect. If god’s words are all true, then they cannot contradict themselves… but they do.”

    God’s words “seemingly” contradict themselves to people with no trust in Him. God told me in Proverbs 3:5 to “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” The key to NOT FINDING CONTRADICTIONS in God’s word is learning that our knowledge of God is limited by our own understanding, so trust is essential. Job learned that lesson, if you read the book of Job in the bible. You are leaning onto your own understanding without trusting in God, so therefore you believe that God’s words contradict themselves. In Isaiah 55:8-9, God tells us “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

    You said, “Believe first (change your thinking) then your thinking will change your feelings, your feelings will change your decisions and habits… this is textbook indoctrination.”

    I never said believe first, I said change your words first. Are the words entering your mind true? Also, I only stated the natural way by which all people think. All people think from words entering their minds. All people feel based on their thoughts on a subject matter and so on. But, God won’t indoctrinate anyone. It’s impossible to be indoctrinated by God for a few reasons. One, God is Love and gives everyone the choice to accept Him or reject Him. God is giving humans a chance to live with Him for eternity, but only under His terms. If you don’t love God, then you don’t want to live with Him forever. That’s okay. Two, walking in the Spirit is contrary to the nature of man. If someone accepts the word of God without being critical of their own understanding, then they’re deceiving themselves, but not God and God will attempt to enlighten them. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 states, “But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.”

    You asked, “What is your reason to think god would make it so difficult and contrary to reason?”

    God never made it so difficult. We made it so difficult, beginning with Adam and Eve and continuing on and on and on. Psalm 51:5 states “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Since the mother is a sinner, the baby that she bears will inevitably be a sinner too. This arises from the fact that the fruit of a tree is not separate from the tree. If a person has a plum tree, it will produce plums, not bananas. It is only natural. I can’t expect God to make me a plum tree that produces bananas. It goes contrary to nature. The same happens for when we are born into the world. But, God can provide a way out of this difficulty. God says accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal savior. Then a person will have their spirit revived and the Holy Spirit will live in the person. If God is in us, that means we are in God and we produce Godly fruit.

    DPK (189),

    You said, “God only speaks the truth, and the truth is either yes, or no.”

    Wrong. Truth is NOT yes or no. Jesus said to THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN HIM, “If you CONTINUE in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” “Jesus answered [in John 14:6], “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So, Jesus is the truth, but in order to know Him, you must continue in His word, the bible.

    You and I both know the answer to those questions, if we apply the law of love to them. But, cherry picking a verse or two to show that for example, slavery was permitted at one time for some reason, doesn’t rightly divide the word of God. God tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15 to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” There is a wrong way to divide the word of truth and cherry picking scriptures or verses is the wrong way. And also, once again you are leaning unto your own understanding, rather than trusting God, which also causes you to have faults.

    The WHOLE BIBLE must be STUDIED in context. It must be rightly divided? You must ask yourself, Who’s he talking to? What is he saying? Why is he saying it? How does it relate to me? and so on. You could make God out to be evil, if you cherry pick verses to prove that point.

    Severin (190),

    You said, “God’s ripping of pregnant women and dashing of innocent children was O.K., because he repayed insults done to him – is THAT what you are saying?”

    No, I said, “…we realize that these are a people who did not rely on God, who could save them, rather they chose to exalt their own kings and rulers who couldn’t even prevent an assault on them from cruel enemies of theirs. It was the cruel enemies who caused them to “fall by the sword,” caused “their little ones [to] be dashed to the ground, caused “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open.” God didn’t do this. At the request of these sinful people, they brought judgment on themselves by relying on sources other than the one and only true God who really could save them. The moral of this story is that we should not deny God, who is the only One who can save us. On this earth, people exalt man above God and time and time again, man fails to even meet their own expectations, causing turmoil for themselves and others.”

    You said, “I would rather die than justify such deeds. Child’s smile and woman’s life are precious to me.”

    God feels the same way, but these people rejected the God who could save them for kings and rulers who would cause them to be plundered and killed.

  192. on 07 Apr 2011 at 6:36 am 192.Severin said …

    189 DBD
    “Nothing exists without a creator.”
    Nothing = nothing!?

    How then can creator exist without a creator?

    And if creator still CAN exist without a creator, then ANYTHING can.

    Where did you learn elements of logic?

  193. on 07 Apr 2011 at 8:32 am 193.Severin said …

    189 DBD
    “God feels the same way, but these people rejected the God who could save them for kings and rulers who would cause them to be plundered and killed.”

    Your god did not feel the same way!
    If he felt the way I felt, he would FORGIVE.
    If he was not satisfied, he could do ANYTHING to make situation better.
    Wasn’t he an allmighty.
    Among billion solutions he had in his arsenal, HE CHOESE TO KILL. Innocent children, who, by definition, could not be responsible for anything!

    Killing of children IS EVIL. Period.
    If a god kills children, it is STILL evil. It does become “nice” because a god does it!
    It is VERY, VERY EVIL, beyond comprehention of decent human beings. No „but“, no explanation, no justification, IT IS EVIL. It is BAD, it is WRONG, it is BESTIAL, it is for crying.

    Let your evil god alone and turn to yourself.
    Look at you eyes in the mirror and ask yourself: who am I?
    Can I be so evil to accept killing of children?
    Can I be so evil to look for justification for someone killing children and ripping pregnant women?
    Then, if your answer would still be „yes“, you will know something is very wrong with you.
    Then you can seek help, if you want.

  194. on 07 Apr 2011 at 4:11 pm 194.DPK said …

    DBD… hang with me now, you are close to a breakthrough!
    “There is observable evidence for God. Nothing exists without a creator.”
    This is demonstrably false. If nothing exists without a creator, then god needed a creator… by your own definition… then, infinite regressions… who created hi, and who created him?” If you will say “God exists without a creator, then you have invalidated your first statement that “nothing” exists without a creator. Ya can;t have it both ways. If you accept that god can exist without a creator, than it is possible that other things exist as well. Science is well documented how simple matter in closed systems can organize itself into more complex structures without need of an engineer. So, point one… fail.

    “I don’t care how much a human understands how a cell works, a human can’t create one.”
    Not quite yet, but I think we will see this within our lifetimes. Just like your analogy of spontaneous generation, you cannot equate “don’t know” to “can’t know”. There have been lots of thing not known to man that were attributed to god. Science and reason have pealed these away one by one.

    “If God is who He says He is, if He really is a Creator, then, the definition of faith does make sense.” Your definition of faith being “the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not perceived”. The best applicable definition of “Faith” in this context is from Webster’s : “firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust ”
    Things “hoped for” have no substance… you are talking gibberish nonsense.

    “Jesus states, “I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.””
    You REALLY want to go there? I have never seen a mountain move? Have you? Do it and prove me wrong. Epic, epic fail.

    “God’s words “seemingly” contradict themselves to people with no trust in Him. ”
    Delusion. Believe me, and then you will believe what I tell you, would I lie?” Again, this makes no sense. The bible says “Thou shalt not kill”. Then it instructs to kill adulterers and homosexuals. How is that “seemingly” contradictory?
    Sorry…. Fail.

    “I never said believe first, I said change your words first.” Tomato, tomato…. what you mean is “brainwash yourself”. Suspend reason and then you will believe…. duh!

    “Since the mother is a sinner, the baby that she bears will inevitably be a sinner too.” What?? If my mother was a murderer, does that mean I will be a murderer? That defies all logic, and this biblical notion of the sins of the father sounds way more like a man’s invention than a perfect being. What kind of a monster holds a child accountable for the actions of their parents?

    “Truth is NOT yes or no.” Uh, yes, sometimes it is. Like in the series of questions I posed you that you conveniently ignored. The answer is yes, or no. Is it ok to kill homosexuals, or not? That is a yes or no question. God exists, or he does not, there is no middle ground. One of us is absolutely 100% right and the other is completely 100% wrong. “Knowing Jesus” does nothing more than give you an “out”… you can’t reconcile what the bible says with what you know is right so you defer to it being beyond your understanding, but you trust that it does in fact, make sense. Cop-out.
    I’ll give you an answer… No! it is not ok to kill someone because they are homosexual. That is immoral. Do you agree??? Yes or No please.

    “cherry picking a verse or two to show that for example, slavery was permitted at one time for some reason, doesn’t rightly divide the word of God.”
    Again, verbal gymnastics. There is NO doubt from multiple passages in the bible that god was ok with the idea of slavery. Nowhere in the bible does god say, “Thou shalt not own slaves.” “Slavery is wrong.” nowhere. You and I both know that slavery is immoral and wrong, and it doesn’t matter if it was 2 thousand years ago or not. GOD, eternal source of right and wrong, would not change his mind and decide maybe he was wrong about that.
    “Cherry picking” is what YOU must do in order to be able to ignore the more disdainful things that exist in god’s perfect word. Sure, you can spend a lifetime constructing elaborate explanations… we call this rationalizing and it is the product of delusion.
    But, there is an answer. One that is simple, and makes all of these “problems” go away. If you step outside of your delusion and look at everything we talk about from the perspective of “god is imaginary”… then all the problems and contradictions make perfect sense… it fits… perfectly.
    The ONLY unanswered question left then, is “where did everything comefrom, if not from god?” Well, I don;t have an answer… but it’s perfectly ok to say “I don’t know.” You don’t HAVE to accept an elaborate fairy tale to try to explain it. It’s ok.

  195. on 07 Apr 2011 at 7:40 pm 195.DPK said …

    To expound a bit on the concept of the rationalization necessary for faith, without make the above post even longer ;-)(vbg), please consider this prime example.
    One of the principles of the Roman Catholic faith is that of transubstantiation. The belief that during consecration of the host during the mass, the bread and wine is physically transformed into the body and blood of Jesus for consumption. Not figuratively or symbolically transformed, but PHYSICALLY transformed. Many Catholics I speak to are shocked to hear this and find it laughable. Any idiot can plainly see that the bread and wine has NOT magically transformed into human flesh and blood. But that is one of the principles of faith that Catholics must accept. The church has written at length about how this “miracle” occurs… a hat, for instance, can be made of leather, but the leather is not the substance of what makes a hat… you can take the leather and make a vest, and though it is still the same “stuff”, now it is a vest and not a hat! Along with endless drivel about the holy spirit and on and on to explain that while the bread and wine IS, in fact, physically transformed by god into the ACTUAL flesh and blood of Jesus for us to eat and drink (ew), the holy spirit manages to keep it’s outward physical appearance unchanged (to what end, I don’t understand other than if you asked your congregation to actually eat human flesh and drink blood you wouldn’t have many sticking around for the 2nd offering).
    Now this is a perfect example of having to construct elaborate, complicated and convoluted explanations for something that has a very simple, truthful answer. The bread and wine continues to look like bread and wine because nothing has happened to it. It has not been miraculously transformed into flesh and blood disguised as bread and wine. You have to do quite an awful lot of yes DBD… SELF DECEPTION… to convince yourself that it has. This is a DELUSION. This is “Faith is believing things you know ain’t true.” And, unfortunately, it is a requirement for belief in a supernatural god.

  196. on 07 Apr 2011 at 8:14 pm 196.Horatiio said …

    LOL! somebody actually refers to the skeptics annotated Bible as a genuine reference tool?

    My my the richness of the conversation just continues to get better. I know understand why the atheists are so easily lead into their delusions.

  197. on 07 Apr 2011 at 8:31 pm 197.DPK said …

    “LOL! somebody actually refers to the skeptics annotated Bible as a genuine reference tool?

    My my the richness of the conversation just continues to get better. I know understand why the atheists are so easily lead into their delusions.”, said Horatiio while not addressing or refuting even a single article sentence of anything written.

    I guess that’s to be expected from someone who’s 2 sentence response begins with “LOL”.

    Any other gems of wisdom you care to share today?
    I notice you too failed to answer ANY of the direct questions I asked of DBD. Why is that? Perhaps because the only two answers you can possibly give can only make you look foolish and dim-witted?
    How the theists squirm and squeal when caught in the horns of a dilemma. Look out everyone, I think I see more scripture quotes coming.

  198. on 07 Apr 2011 at 8:34 pm 198.Lou said …

    194.Horatiio said …

    “LOL! somebody actually refers to the skeptics annotated Bible as a genuine reference tool?

    My my the richness of the conversation just continues to get better. I know understand why the atheists are so easily lead into their delusions.”

    As opposed to using the “real” Bible as not only a “reference tool,” but as a basis for a “worldview?!

    LOL indeed.

  199. on 07 Apr 2011 at 10:38 pm 199.Horatiio said …

    DPK I must admit I didn’t read your post. If you asked questions directly to DBD then why would I respond LOL! The skeptic Bible caught my eye and brought me great laughter.

    Would you be referring to your bable about the RC?

    I’m not RC but if you care to shorten your question to something I don’t need to search for I would be glad to respond.

    Thanks DPK!

  200. on 07 Apr 2011 at 10:42 pm 200.DPK said …

    No problem. It’s obvious from most of your posts that you don’t really bother to read much before you respond with your canned responses and mockery.
    FWIW, the reference you mocked was only an index which made no claims or assertions but merely referenced real biblical passages… so the real reference you find so amusing is your own holy book. Thanks for making my point.
    D

  201. on 08 Apr 2011 at 1:09 am 201.MrQ said …

    DPK/Lou
    You boys have a lot more energy than do I. What’s absolutely clear is that Hor, DPK, Xenon, et al NEED the bible to be true. For whatever reason it MUST be bulletproof to them.

    When one tries to question their biblical beliefs and cast the light of logic, reason, and science on their beliefs they scurry for the shadows, running down into the depths of the sewers where they dwell. As an example, Hor will go so far as to say the Earth is 4.5 billion years old (and the universe is 14.5 billion years old) but he has great difficulty (and resistance) in explaining (or exploring) how a god fits into that time frame. For him it boils down to “life arose on our planet and goddidit”. He seems to accept Francis Collins assertion that evolution occurs without divine intervention. I KNOW he will fail to respond to this entry with anything of substance….Maybe he’ll throw an LOL at me.

  202. on 08 Apr 2011 at 1:12 am 202.MrQ said …

    What’s absolutely clear is that Hor, DPK, Xenon, et al

    Sorry. That should read “What’s absolutely clear is that Hor, DBD, Xenon, et al “

  203. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:17 am 203.Severin said …

    199 MrQ
    …“life arose on our planet and goddidit”

    I can understand that people believing in Bible defend Bible, no matter what I think about them.
    I categorize them:
    a) children/teenagers, still having highly developed „parent authority“ syndrome
    b) adults with IQ below 80, limited by Mother Nature to recognize/use logic
    c) intelligent but sick adults, who don’t WANT to recognize/accept anything

    I am also full of understanding for people who „moved“ the „beginning“ from Biblical “creation” to BB, still claiming that (some) god did it.

    What I can not understand:
    Why people who believe god caused the BB and started evolution, still defend Biblical „moral code“?

    On the other side, what do I expect to understand, if “LOL” is their strongest debate tool?

  204. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:47 am 204.Severin said …

    Gentlemen theists,

    Could you kindly declare what yo really believe?
    How can we discuss if we have no clear idea about what you believe?

    To help you, I will categorize possibilities for you:

    A) Biblical (for Muslims: Koran) god is the one and only god. Bible (Koran) is absolute truth. Thre are no other truths but Bible (Koran). There are no such things as Big Bang and evolution.
    B) Some higher force (god, deity, spirit, creator…) caused BB some 13.5 billion years ago. He/she/it also put the „sead“ of life on earth to beginn life, that, after that, spontaniously developed in evolution

    You are free to add whatever you want to this list as C), D)…, just make it CLEAR.

    So, dear:
    Horatio
    Boz
    Xenon
    DBD
    Holy Bible
    Biff
    Burebista
    A Romantic
    (At al.)

    Can you kindly put some A) or B) (or a „C“ or „D“) for us to know WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVE.

    Because it is obvious that you do NOT believe same things!

  205. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:49 am 205.Severin said …

    Sorry, “seed”, not “sead”

  206. on 08 Apr 2011 at 11:42 am 206.Horatiio said …

    DPK

    Hey, I’ve got to be honest. I only play the game slick. When I deal with adults who keep the conversation on an adult level, I act with respect. When they resort to names and mockery I respond with laughter. Its your choice.

    No, I don’t believe bread and wine magically transform.

    No I don’t believe Time and Chance “diddit”.

    The Skeptics Annotated Bible is a joke. If you use it as a reference you will not be taken seriously.

    IF a man creates a cell, then that will prove intelligence was needed. Of course, if successful, man will do it in a Lab. lol (sorry)

  207. on 08 Apr 2011 at 12:15 pm 207.MrQ said …

    Hor,
    Don’t be afraid of science; It has been very helpful. You and your fellow believers always seem to say that what we know and understand of the universe will be “different” 100 years from now…..It’s called progress, by the way, and is nothing to fear.

    I picture you and your clan in the days of Galileo preaching to people; asking them to abandon these reckless ideas that we are NOT the centre of the universe.

    Hor -Do you think that we have a “different” understanding of our world since the days of Galileo? Is that a bad thing to you?

  208. on 08 Apr 2011 at 12:29 pm 208.MrQ said …

    Hor, DBD:
    The Bible is a joke. If you use it as a reference you will not be taken seriously.
    (Hor -sorry, just borrowed a little from your post #204)

  209. on 08 Apr 2011 at 2:53 pm 209.DPK said …

    Hor: “IF a man creates a cell, then that will prove intelligence was needed.”

    There he goes, jumping to erroneous conclusions again.
    It seems that Hor has seen the handwriting on the wall is is now covering his backside on biogensis for future arguments.
    In his defense, he has already refuted most of the more ridiculous positions taken by many fundamentalists. Good for him.

    If man creates a living cell, it proves only that intelligence was needed to understand it, not for it to happen. Hydrogen bombs are certainly very complex mechanisms. The idea that you could just take a cloud of hydrogen and it would somehow assemble itself into a working fusion reactor is beyond comprehension, huh?

  210. on 08 Apr 2011 at 3:34 pm 210.DPK said …

    “No, I don’t believe bread and wine magically transform.”

    Good, we’re getting somewhere. I believe there is hope for you yet.

    So, you concede that theists construct elaborate rationalizations and ad hoc hypotheses in order to explain principles of their faith which are obviously untrue. It seems you are free of most of the delusions of religious thinking. The only one you seem to have a problem with is creation. Ok. I can see your point. I don’t really have much problem with the idea of a creative force or law in the universe. I don’t think it is fair to manifest it as a personal intercessory god. If you want to call the laws of physics “god” ok. They obviously exist, so call them what you want. Just don’t try to tell me they listen to my prayers, manifest themselves in burnt toast, care who I sleep with, delight in the smell of burning goat flesh, or demand blood sacrifices in atonement for some imaginary transgression of ancient ancestors. The laws of physics do not care if I worship them, they do not “love” me, and they are not going to judge me and reward or punish me based on whether or not I believed in them.

  211. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:02 pm 211.Horatiio said …

    Ah sure DPK. Didn’t see a question in there so we move on.

    Maybe you, My Q-less or Ant-Theist could share with us which science we should fear as theist? It is on the verge of bringing on a LOL!

    I look forward to these revelations.

  212. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:09 pm 212.Anti-Theist said …

    I don’t think you should fear any science.

  213. on 08 Apr 2011 at 6:32 pm 213.DPK said …

    Neither do I.
    D

  214. on 08 Apr 2011 at 7:47 pm 214.Horatiio said …

    Great! We are all in agreement. There is no science that contradicts the position of a theist. So why make such an accusation DPK? Was this an attempt to disparage a entire group of people?

    I do enjoy reading the recent trend o atheist to down play the complexity and design in creation in order to continue their own facade. I guess the great strides in science have been a threat to the atheist position. For me, they only strengthen my beliefs

    Creation-Creator
    Design-Designer
    Laws-Lawgiver

    Have a great weekend.

  215. on 08 Apr 2011 at 8:06 pm 215.Anti-Theist said …

    #212

    Many theistic principles are absolutely contradicted by science. Why are you trying to win a debate by sounding crazy?

    The rest of your post is too out of focus to even respond to. I thought you were going to play nice if given respect. Was that a joke?

  216. on 08 Apr 2011 at 9:01 pm 216.DPK said …

    I didn’t say science doesn’t contradict any religious principles, I said you need not fear it. Is the only way you can try to make a point is to try to put words in other people’s mouths?
    Science is a process for determining TRUTH… nothing more. You should not fear the truth. Religion, on the other hand is at best, a search for justification, and at worst, dogma.
    Hor, you are quick to jump to conclusions and you still haven’t answered the fundamental problem to your assertion. If
    Creation-Creator
    Design-Designer
    Laws-Lawgiver
    Then who created, designed, and governs god?
    By your own admission, he must have one…….

  217. on 08 Apr 2011 at 9:26 pm 217.MrQ said …

    Hor:

    Maybe you, My Q-less or Ant-Theist could share with us which science we should fear as theist? It is on the verge of bringing on a LOL!

    You seem to struggle with evolution. Somehow you use your “theistic science(TM)” to suggest that if REAL SCIENCE was accurate then HD motorcycles should/could be washing up on our beaches. Almost worthy of a LMFAO.

    Hor, you suffer from HUYA syndrome and LOL-itis. You’re a silly man with a NEED to keep the myth of Jayzus alive lest you return to the beer bong/whiskey chaser days of old.

  218. on 08 Apr 2011 at 9:31 pm 218.Xenon said …

    I missed the point. Help this old theist out. Which theistic principles are contradicted by science?

  219. on 08 Apr 2011 at 9:49 pm 219.MrQ said …

    Xenon #216

    Which theistic principles are contradicted by science?

    Might depend on who you ask. Let’s try your outlook, shall we?

    1)Are you OK with a 4.5 billion year old Earth and 14.5 billion year old universe? Hor is. Other christians are not.
    2)How about the Theory of Evolution? Francis Collins and Ken Miller are OK with it. How about you Xenon? Are you a typical American Christian…afraid of evolution.

    How’s that for starters? We can work out and expand our “discussion” from here. Will you answer these simple questions or dodge around like Hor?

  220. on 08 Apr 2011 at 10:35 pm 220.DPK said …

    Yeah, depends on which theist you ask… they all have different beliefs.
    Here’s one. Prayer. Most theists insist god answers prayers. Every valid scientific study has shown prayer has no effect.

  221. on 08 Apr 2011 at 10:50 pm 221.TGHO said …

    @212 Horatiio,

    Except you already conceded in another thread with regards to the complexity argument. Still waiting for any of the theists to actually provide some evidence of compexity in nature.

  222. on 08 Apr 2011 at 10:50 pm 222.TGHO said …

    @216 Xenon,

    The theist belief in magic for one.

  223. on 09 Apr 2011 at 3:00 am 223.DPK said …

    I’m still waiting for the theists in this discussion to answer ANY of the many challenges or direct questions presented them.
    In 220 posts I haven’t heard anything of substance other than LOL and some bible passages and other complete nonsense. I did get Hor to admit that he doesn’t believe in transubstantiation, so at least his psychosis is not total.

    Why am I not surprised?

  224. on 09 Apr 2011 at 6:33 am 224.Severin said …

    216 Xenon
    “I missed the point. Help this old theist out. Which theistic principles are contradicted by science?“

    I’ll be glad to!
    If you accept logic is science, then the claim „everything needs a creator“ is contradictory.
    Don’t you see it?
    If creator is „something“, and „everything needs a creator“, then the creator NECESSARILY needs a creator too, according to this very claim.
    Except in case he is „nothing“ (in which case we don’t have one).
    I doubt you could negate this logic without burning “fuses” in your brain.

    Atheists have no such problems: we accept the idea of universe WITHOUT CAUSE.
    If theists say that „something“ (god) is possible to exist without cause, to „just exist“, we don’t see ANY problem in extrapolating such idea to claim: matter/energy is possible to exist without cause! It „just exists“ and transforms according to its inherent „intelligence“ from one form to another.
    As DPK said: if you want to call laws of physics „god“, it is O.K. for me. Holds water!
    Holds logic! Fits science!
    Fits common sense.

    In other words: if SOMETHING (god) does not need a creator, WHY matter/energy can’t be that “something”?

  225. on 09 Apr 2011 at 8:57 am 225.Severin said …

    Xenon,
    Of course, if you now say that “everything needs a creator EXCEPT GOD”, such a claim should be well elaborated, and I think that it can’t be elaborated wothout involving magic.
    Then, again, I can say, and you have no arguments to oppose: “everything needs a creator, except matter/energy”.

    You avoid such traps if you accept something CAN exist without a cause, and if god, why not something else, too?
    We see “else”, we can measure it, we know a lot about it, we know much about laws “else” follows, we even know that the BB did NOT “boom” from nithing, but from a “cluster” of matter/energy (something like a big black hole)…
    If it “boomed’ from nothing, thanks to some god, we are starting to catch our own tails again: where did god “boom” from?

    If you cant positively prove god, you at least have to explain why something else (matter/energy) is excluded from this logic. WHY is the very same logic valid for something, and not valid for something else?

  226. on 09 Apr 2011 at 9:19 am 226.Severin said …

    Xenon, Horatio

    Please pay attention to #208 DPK:

    “If you want to call the laws of physics “god” ok. They obviously exist, so call them what you want. Just don’t try to tell me they listen to my prayers, manifest themselves in burnt toast, care who I sleep with, delight in the smell of burning goat flesh, or demand blood sacrifices in atonement for some imaginary transgression of ancient ancestors.”

    Do YOU believe your god cares who you sleep with?
    Do YOU think your god listens to your prayers?

    A “god” who caused the BB (or who transformed himself to other form through the BB) is interested to peep into your bedroom?

    Please! I am sure you know it better!

  227. on 09 Apr 2011 at 12:30 pm 227.Xenon said …

    So you all agree that there is no conflict between theism and science? I really thought that would be the conclusion. A couple of you attempted to delve into particular religions but alas that was never the question.

    Prayer proven “scientifically” to be false? Lets check the parameters.

    1. Did God agree to the test?
    2. Was God willing to fulfill the particular request?
    3. Last I read Jesus gave the command to not test God. I think that debunks the test if He is not willing to participate.

    You really cannot be taken seriously with such ridiculous statements.

    Theist who have differing beliefs is actually a positive trait. Atheist tend to be clones who really do not think for themselves but allow blogs, Dawkins, Harris and Meyers tell them what to believe.

    Theist do not believe in magic. That would be an atheist trait. They do not believe in universes popping into existence or do they believe in matter that has existed for eternity.

    Lets try another. Socrates has been proven false by science. Do you agree?

  228. on 09 Apr 2011 at 3:27 pm 228.DPK said …

    Xenon, the brainwashing is strong with you.
    “Last I read Jesus gave the command to not test God. I think that debunks the test if He is not willing to participate.”
    That’s kind of like Jim Baker saying, “I’m not a thief!”
    1st… EVERY prayer is a test, whether there are a bunch of grad students compiling data or not. You pray for something, you either get what you asked for or you don’t. That’s a test.
    Now, even assuming that god was aware of the specific double blind scientific test that were being conducted and refused to participate, if god answers ANY prayers at all, there would be data left behind. Since Jesus said “whatever you ask of the father in MY name, he will do it” let’s assume that it is the CHRISTIAN god we are talking about and that only CHRISTIAN 9who invoke Jesus’ name) will get prayers answered. In that case, we would see an obvious change in the laws of probability for christians vs anyone else. Christians would have higher rates of cancer remissions, they would get more job promotions, loose fewer homes to foreclosure, survive heart attacks more frequently, get into better colleges in higher percentages, not get killed or injured in accidents at a statistically significant rate. We don’t see this.
    Here is what you are ignoring, please pay attention.
    The ONLY way god can avoid detection, or being tested, is for him to NOT ANSWER ANY PRAYERS AT ALL. That’s the only way he can possibly avoid leaving evidence of his intercession in human affairs. So, if god is not to be tested, he cannot answer prayers, ever. He has to just let it alone and let natural probability work.
    Curiously, this is EXACTLY what we observe when we look at the world. No anomalies for Christians or any other religious sect…..ZERO.
    So, must you conclude? Either god lied and he does not answer any prayers at all, or god is imaginary and prayers aren’t answered because there is no one to answer them.
    Now who is making “ridiculous” statements?
    If your stock broker came to you and said, “Give me all you money and I guarantee you I will ear you a 100% return on your investment. The only stipulation is, you must NEVER look at your monthly statement. If you do, you will find that all your money is gone, but as long as you don’t look, I promise to double your money in 1 year.”
    You’d run the other way, right?
    Jesus says, “My father will grant you anything you ask, as long as you don’t look for results (test).”

    You said, “Theist do not believe in magic.”
    Definition:
    magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers.
    Care to retract your statement now, or will you tell me god does not have supernatural powers?

    Why are you so fixated on Socrates? Do you think all your convoluted thinking is going to be changed by one old and tired Philosophy 101 argument?
    It has already been explained to you that science does not “prove” anything, it provides the BEST explanation for things based on observable evidence.
    Whether Socrates actually existed as a person, a legend, an historical amalgamation of figures, or any other hypothesis you can conjure up that fits with the observable evidence has absolutely no bearing on the existence of a supernatural god. But if you still think you have a point, please make it.

  229. on 09 Apr 2011 at 5:38 pm 229.Xenon said …

    DPK

    Again you failed to answer the question Has science proved Socrates existed or not? Since you have proven prayers are not answered this should be easy.

    Come on now. Stop hedging and make a definite statement.

  230. on 09 Apr 2011 at 6:10 pm 230.DPK said …

    Don’t care.
    Do you read? Do you understand ANYTHING about the scientific method?

    For the 10 thousandth time… Mathematics provides proofs, science provides hypotheses that are supported or not supported by evidence.

    I have done no research at all into the evidence for Socrates. I have answered your question to the best of my ability. I cannot “prove” Socrates existed or did not exist and more than I can “prove” god exists, or that my father existed… all I can do is provide evidence to support the idea, or refute it.

    I personally do not care enough about the issue to do the research into Socrates.

    If you really want to provide evidence that would support the idea that Socrates did not exist, go right ahead. I don’t see where it is relevant to the topic, but knock yourself out.

    If you have a point, make it so we can discuss it, if you don’t, give it a rest. You are really starting to sound like a one trick pony.

    BTW, thank you for admitting that prayer does not work. Finally we are getting somewhere with you.

    Now, can you explain to me WHY prayer doesn’t work? Here’s a hint: It is either that Jesus lied in the bible, or god is imaginary, unless you have another idea that fits the evidence better?

  231. on 09 Apr 2011 at 6:48 pm 231.DPK said …

    BTW, even if Socrates did not exist, and was invented by Plato, it would not factor into the validity of the ideas attributed to him. I especially like this one, which applies here aptly:

    “Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know.”

  232. on 09 Apr 2011 at 7:20 pm 232.Xenon said …

    Well DPK if you cannot use the scientific method to prove something as simple as Socrates then God and prayer are out of the question.

    Thanks for proving my point. Now that we agree let me share a simple point with you.

    Keep science in the arena where it belongs, the natural, the here and now. Science is a tool with limitations. It cannot answer many questions. Expand your mind and work toward being a well rounded individual.

    Good luck to you.

  233. on 09 Apr 2011 at 8:33 pm 233.Severin said …

    226 DPK (and other atheists),

    For the 50th times I was tricked by Xenon’s „friendly“ tone (#216), and tryed to debate a fair way, just to get back in my face his LOLs, „clones“ (before that I, and other atheists, were „drones“, and worse), and direct lies („So you all agree that there is no conflict between theism and science?“) as premisses for his further „conclusions“.

    I think that I am fair in my debating, and I see you are more than fair, and very friendly.

    I will stop adressing to Xenon, he is not worthy of my attention.

    You do what you want, and my suggestion is to just ignore him.
    He will eat his pillow when he sees that there is no one he can poison with his helpless bitterness, but I think he deserves it.

  234. on 09 Apr 2011 at 9:25 pm 234.DPK said …

    Xenon,
    I hope you didn’t stay awake all night thinking of that one. That’s pretty sad. I bet you heard it from a TV preacher, right? “Expand your mind…” Seriously?

    Severin,
    Thanks man. Hey, there’s only such much you can do. You know what they say, “You can lead a horse to water, but it’s still an ‘effin horse!”

    I think we made our points well. Hey, BDB finally stopped rambling, Hor admitted that theists make up elaborate rationalizations to explain things that are clearly untrue, and Xenon admitted that god does not answer prayers… not even ones to win debates with atheists, apparently… so all in all, a good outcome.
    My work is done.

  235. on 09 Apr 2011 at 10:09 pm 235.TGHO said …

    Looks like Xenon has been thoroughly refuted in this debate.

    “Theists don’t believe in magic”
    – seriously??? Did he seriously claim that? Cripes. The whole basis of religion is magic and magical claims. Magical thinking permeates the theist mindset completely.

    Severin, DPK, first round of beers is on me. :)

  236. on 10 Apr 2011 at 12:01 am 236.Boz said …

    TGHO & DPK

    I read over the last part of the thread. What are you guys exactly congratulating yourselves over?

    I read numerous opinions however no peer reviewed supporting documents and no links to data supporting any or your opinions.

    Severin, why are you so upset? You may be fair in your debating but we would never know. Your post are so poorly worded nobody has a clue what your point is suppose to be.

  237. on 10 Apr 2011 at 12:16 am 237.TGHO said …

    @234 Boz,

    You might want to actually note your specific concerns here. Are you trying to claim that we need to present journal articles outlining how theists believe in magic? Are you asking for specific scientific points which contradict the theist worldview? What is your actual complaint?

    Secondly, don’t be an arse to Severin. English is his second language, and he apparently is self-taught. I challenge you to go and learn Mandarin or Danish by yourself and write coherently and understandably.

  238. on 10 Apr 2011 at 2:34 am 238.DPK said …

    Xenon,
    On second thought, if you are still here, I may have been a little stubborn with you. You were asking for a yes or no question to your Socrates question, and I was insistent on you understanding why one wasn’t available, I realize now after some further consideration, this may have been to tough a transition for you. You are used to dogmata being feed to you.
    So here is a better answer for you:
    As long as you will accept the same standard of proof that you do for god, then I can say yes, I can absolutely positively prove the existence of Socrates to you, no problem.
    Please do be aware that with THIS standard of proof (the same one you accept for god) I can also positively prove the existence of leprechauns, fairies and unicorns.
    However, if you insist on holding me to provide a reasonable preponderance of evidence that Socrates actually existed, I must, of course insist that you provide the same for god. That sounds fair, now doesn’t it?
    I hope that is a more satisfactory answer for you, and I apologize for making it difficult for you to understand before.

  239. on 10 Apr 2011 at 6:41 am 239.Severin said …

    234 Boz.
    “Severin, why are you so upset? You may be fair in your debating but we would never know.”

    I am not upset, thank you for asking. I just do not like someone calling me “clone” and “drone” from time to time. Not that it upsets me, I only think people shoud behave more decently on public blogs.

    Don’t you be so pesimistic!
    Some day you will know!

  240. on 12 Apr 2011 at 6:22 pm 240.EmoHeart said …

    How come we have no evidence of all the bible verses being true?

    Oh wait we do!

    The verses from the real bible are true, and the bible we read is lies. Proof the bible is fake:

    “The Bible is not the “word of God,” but stolen from pagan sources. Its Eden, Adam and Eve were taken from the Babylonian accounts; its Flood and Deluge is but an epitome of some four hundred flood accounts; its Ark and Ararat have their equivalents in a score of Deluge myths; even the names of Noah’s sons are copies, so also Isaac’s sacrifice, Solomon’s judgment, and Samson’s pillar acts; its Moses is fashioned after the Syrian Mises; its laws after Hammurabi’s code. Its Messiah is derived from the Egyptian Mahdi, Savior; certain verses are verbatim copies of Egyptian scriptures. Between Jesus and the Egyptian Horus, Gerald Massy found 137 similarities, and those between Christ and Krishna run into the hundreds. How then can the Bible be a revelation to the Jews?”

    All of you who think the bible is the word of “God” or Jesus think again.

  241. on 12 Apr 2011 at 6:33 pm 241.Truett said …

    Let me go ahead and debunk what Emoheart cut and paste off a website. Follow the link and find out the truth.

    http://www.focusmagazine.org/Articles/mythhistory.htm

  242. on 12 Apr 2011 at 7:05 pm 242.Lou said …

    “238.EmoHeart said …

    How come we have no evidence of all the bible verses being true?”

    Not only is the bible untrue, it’s unnecessary. Why would GOD have to speak to us through a book?

    That reminds me of Star Trek V – why does GOD need a star-ship?

  243. on 12 Apr 2011 at 8:02 pm 243.TGHO said …

    @239 Truett,

    Except your link is to an christian apologetics website which ignores the data, refuses to examine the evidence and tries to only uphold their preconceived worldview.

    Unfortunately for you, this is incorrect.

  244. on 02 May 2011 at 3:31 pm 244.EmoHeart said …

    Unfortunately you dont know how to read or accept the truth.

  245. on 30 Oct 2011 at 5:31 pm 245.VickieMcfarland said …

    When you are in a not good position and have got no money to move out from that, you will have to take the personal loans. Just because that will help you emphatically. I take credit loan every time I need and feel myself great just because of it.

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