Feed on Posts or Comments 30 September 2014

Christianity &Islam &Judaism &Rationals Thomas on 09 Feb 2011 12:37 am

The Hopelessness of Atheism

Is atheism hopeless? Is Christianity meaningful?

If you were thinking, you wouldn’t be wasting your only mortal life chasing phantasms and delusions.

See also: “Atheism is an intellectually shallow, morally stunted, and socially regressive blight on humanity.” – Jim O’Neill

75 Responses to “The Hopelessness of Atheism”

  1. on 10 Feb 2011 at 12:23 pm 1.Mitch said …

    I think as an atheist one can certainly live tremendous hope. I mean if there is no God then there is no ultimate accountability. No fear going before a Just and Holy God to give an account of one’s life. One can live the life of their choosing as a result of this, with no fear of retribution. This is hope to the atheist. But is the hope just a delusion?

    The life for an atheist is 75 years here then an eternity of nothingness. A hundred years from now the life of an atheist is forgotten forever and their existence forgotten. A synonym for hopeless is desperate and I would think desperate describes the plight well.

    Join this with the fact, the atheist may be wrong. Then the hopelessness will turn to outright dread when standing before God in judgment. Let face the reality, there is a solid chance the atheist is wrong in their worldview. It is quite the gamble since they have not even satisfied one possible outcome.

    In the UK, a nation who has become more secular and less spiritual in the last 60 years, the number two cause of woman in emergency rooms is attempted suicides. Suicide is also in the top five for men. This is quite an alarming statistic. That seems to dictate an onslaught of hopelessness among the people.

  2. on 10 Feb 2011 at 6:56 pm 2.Anonymous said …

    Mitch:

    In the UK, a nation who has become more secular and less spiritual in the last 60 years, the number two cause of woman in emergency rooms is attempted suicides. Suicide is also in the top five for men. This is quite an alarming statistic. That seems to dictate an onslaught of hopelessness among the people.

    Nice stat, but wrong. This page shows that suicide rates in UK are 20% lower than in (highly religious) US (9.2 vs. 11.1):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    This page shows suicide rates in UK are falling:

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/sui0111.pdf

  3. on 10 Feb 2011 at 7:14 pm 3.Tigerboy said …

    I wholeheartedly agree with Thunderf00t’s assertion that an eternity of ANYTHING would be horrific. People who long for “eternal paradise” haven’t got a realistic grasp on the concept. Life is precious BECAUSE it is finite. Life without death would be the opposite of precious. In fact, it would soon become suffering. (Yet, there would be no escape!) Thinking beings need challenges to overcome. In order to feel “satisfied, accomplished, and fulfilled”, we NEED adversity. Failure MUST be one of the possibilities. Otherwise, from whence comes the feeling of accomplishment? Eternity lounging in the land of milk and honey would be stagnation. You would never be challenged by anything. You already know the outcome to any challenge. There could be no failure. Every single day would be exactly like all the others. That is the very nature of “perfection.” It cannot deviate. Stagnation. Stagnation becomes boredom. Boredom becomes shrieking torture! It can never end. Eternity after eternity after eternity. You are desperate for something to be different. But you can’t even kill yourself! Paradise sounds totally horrifying.

  4. on 10 Feb 2011 at 8:39 pm 4.HAL 9000 said …

    http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmeaninglesshopeless/a/AtheismHopeless.htm

  5. on 10 Feb 2011 at 8:55 pm 5.Mitch said …

    Anonymous

    Learning to read for content will keep communication flowing. I list emergency visits for suicide attempts, and you pull up stats that have nothing to do with emergency visits. Do you see the irrelevance of your links?

    But did you notice how many very secular nations were at the top? I don’t put a lot of stock in the WHO since there numbers are so convoluted by politics of the nation so….I don’t hold them against you.

    Tigerboy,

    you actually follow Thunderf00t? You and Tf00t actually know what eternity would be like although you don’t believe man can live throughout eternity? Ironically, the Bible says a little about eternity but I don’t think you and Tf00t would be interested. Milk and honey? That is some strange eternity.

  6. on 10 Feb 2011 at 10:01 pm 6.Tigerboy said …

    What, Mitch, you can’t imagine a hypothetical?

  7. on 11 Feb 2011 at 1:41 am 7.v8 said …

    Mitch #5:

    I list emergency visits for suicide attempts, and you pull up stats that have nothing to do with emergency visits.

    Uhhhh, wouldn’t EVERY suicide go to the emergency room? You are grasping at straws because the stats prove you are wrong.

  8. on 11 Feb 2011 at 3:31 am 8.Hines said …

    “Uhhhh, wouldn’t EVERY suicide go to the emergency room?”

    How stupid, when you find someone who has blown their brains out on the bathroom floor, obviously dead for hours, you don’t take them to the emergency room. They go to the morgue.

    Are there people really this stupid or are you just argumentative?

    Major in the minor when you have no case.

  9. on 11 Feb 2011 at 10:35 am 9.Severin said …

    1 Mitch
    “No fear going before a Just and Holy God to give an account of one’s life.”

    Now just imagine how wonderful lives atheists live!
    Hey, no fear! Isn’t it SOMETHING today?

  10. on 11 Feb 2011 at 12:31 pm 10.Mitch said …

    No doubt Severin a life of no accountability is quite the draw for an atheist. Considering it has been around as long as God it is baffling there are not more is it not?

    I could put on a blind fold and be lead it to the den of a bear and I would have no fear as well. I prefer to keep my eyes open. The word “Fear” when used with God means a reverent respect of who God is. No the fear you espouse.

  11. on 11 Feb 2011 at 3:45 pm 11.Severin said …

    Mitch,
    As I am bad in English, I looked for the right meaning of the word, and it turned that I already understood it well:
    “Accountability, n. The state of being accountable; liability to be called on to render an account; the obligation to bear the consequences for failure to perform as expected; accountableness …”

    I am a responsible and reliable man.
    If your god does not like me just because I don’t believe he exists, it is his problem, not mine.
    He never did anything to make me believe he exists, and now he threatens me with eternal hell if I don’t!
    BAD personality!
    If I depend on such a bad personality, so be it: eternity in hell will be much more challenging than eternity in heaven. Never bored!

    But, I am also accountable! If I have to pay something for my wrong deeds, there are: my family, my friends, my partner, my fellow humans, through their institutions and laws… ALL of them have right to call me to render an account, as I live with them, and influence their lives, as they influence mine.

    Lucky me, I was never called to render any account till now. Probably because I never failed to “perform as expected”.

    If I did, my conscience would be my first punishment!
    I do not need gods to teach me what is right and what is wrong.

  12. on 11 Feb 2011 at 3:54 pm 12.Severin said …

    Mitch,

    Can you, or someone else, enlighten me about WHAT exactly god expect me to do?
    HOW do you think god expects me to perform?
    WHERE can I find WHAT god expects of me?
    Is there any “manual” about how to satisfy god(s)?

  13. on 11 Feb 2011 at 7:47 pm 13.Mitch said …

    “If your god does not like me just because I don’t believe he exists, it is his problem, not mine.”

    I’ll pass on your message. The total chutzpah of the statement is quite telling. I have never met anyone who claims such perfection. I don’t think I could ever tell a man who has lived as spotless of an existence as you what God demands.

  14. on 12 Feb 2011 at 12:14 am 14.Tigerboy said …

    Spotless or not, Mitch, Severin’s existence and behavior are EXACTLY as your God wishes them to be.

    If one believes in an all-powerful being, He controls everything, right? Severin’s chutzpah is just as God wishes it to be, right? Severin is BLAMELESS and incapable of behavior any different. That’s what the believer in an all-powerful God is claiming.

    All child molesters must be operating according to God’s plan, too. Murderers, too.

    Or, maybe God controls absolutely everything EXCEPT Severin and his chutzpah, and the child molesters, and the murders. (Well, then He DOESN’T control EVERYTHING!)

    God is either all-powerful, which means everyone else is blameless and innocent, or sin DOES exist and God is NOT all-powerful!

    The concepts of “sin” and “evil” cannot coexist with an omnipotent God, unless God, Himself, is evil.

  15. on 12 Feb 2011 at 12:21 am 15.Boz said …

    Ha Ha Ha, What?

    I think you may have forgotten “All mommies are bad because mine left”.

    Website theology……

  16. on 12 Feb 2011 at 9:07 am 16.Severin said …

    13 Mitch
    Thank you Mitch, I am not perfect (for example, I smoke), but I can say for myself that I am a good human being, and all people who know me personally tink so as well.

    I know well what people, society, human race, my planet, expect from me, now: How can I learn what GOD expects from me?
    Maybe I would be ready to please him too, if I knew what he expected from me.

    Every single theist on this blog claims (I would say: patronizes me/us, atheists) that we have to perform the way god wants us to perform, but NONE of them, EVER, answered the simple question: WHERE can I (we) find “rules” (laws, instructions..) about how to adjust my/our behavior to god’s wishes.
    HOW can I know what god expects me to do or not to do, to please him, BESIDE things I already do or don’t do, in attempt to live in harmony with people/society/planet/universe?
    I did not suck those instrucions with my mother’s milk, just as I did not suck math or chemistry, but I had to LEARN them, if I wanted to KNOW them. I FOUND books about math and chemistry, but I never found instructions about how to adjust my behaviour with god’s will.

    Maybe you can help?
    How, for example you know what god wants from you?

  17. on 12 Feb 2011 at 1:18 pm 17.Mitch said …

    “Maybe you can help?”

    No, not really. Nobody can live up to the law “no not one” which is why Jesus came in the first place. Its not about the law, its about grace and mercy in a relationship with Jesus Christ (Romans 5:8). You must realize that as good as you think you are, you are still a sinner (Romans 3:23). That is what God wants. Following God and His precepts comes through that relationship. But if you don’t even believe in the Lord, its really not possible for you. Anticipating your next question, if you don’t see proof of God, I can’t help you.

    Tigerboy,

    Like Boz, I can’t follow the logic.

  18. on 12 Feb 2011 at 2:26 pm 18.Christian Hicks said …

    I thank the heathen unbelieving Godless hell-bound people for participating in this forum.

    Some people claim that God doesn’t exist. The ONLY reason they could claim such a thing, is because they are blinded by the ways of Satan and don’t want to be accountable to anyone, probably cause they want to rape children.

    Now these terrorists loving atheists keep talking about how its not logical to believe in God.

    Well explain this mr atheist…….

    1) The bible is true
    2) The bible is the word of God
    3) The word of God is true
    Therefore the bible is true.

    See this is what these Darwin worshipers, don’t get, speaking of Darwin, do you know what these evolutionists think humans came from ? That’s right they think that we came from monkeys, I mean have you ever seen a monkey give birth to a human ? of course not, stupid stupid atheists.

    Let me tell you according to GODS word, not infallible mans word where humans came from. Humans came from God created about 6000 years ago, who were put in a garden and were tempted to eat forbidden fruit from a talking serpent. THATS the real history of humanity friends.

    Now you see morality is grounded in God, if we don’t believe in God ya know what will happen ? Everyone will be murdering and rapeing each other that’s what will happen.

    Let me tell you something about miracles, I once heard from some guy, that his friends saw some dude raise from the dead, of course mr atheist DENIES such PROOF of miracles.

    What we need to do, is get back to good old christian values that his nation was built on. Like godly morality, family values, denying women the vote, keeping rich people rich and sending blacks to the back of the bus.

    You wanna know how we can be sure that the USA is Gods special nation, cause we have in god we trust on our money, thats how, take that you commie bastards.

    Mr atheist questions how I can be sure what is Gods will, well you see I Have these views, then the holy spirit testifies to me with an inner conviction that these views are true, see mr atheist can’t understand the ways of God.

    It is more important now than ever we get back to our christian roots, we live in changing and dangerous time, there is war, and terrorists, the concentration of media and the politics being beholden to who has the most money, sickness and disease and poverty so we must focus our energies on the issues that matter most which are…..

    GAYS
    GUNS
    ABORTIONS

    Thank you.

  19. on 12 Feb 2011 at 4:56 pm 19.Severin said …

    17 Mitch
    “Maybe you can help?”
    “No, not really.”

    But you still put Bible under my nose!

    HOW do you know which parts of the Bible I have to accept, obey and follow, and which ones to avoid?Which parts of the Bible are applicable to me/you and which ones are not?
    HOW can I distinguish them?
    Shall I obey god’s orders to kill “consumed brides” and people working on sabbath, or not?
    If not, WHY NOT, if it is god’s word?
    Again, if some parts of the Bible are NOT applicable to me, WHY should I accept, obey and follow ANY OTHER part of the Bible?

    WHO is authorized to tell us what parts of the Bible are actual and when?

    That is a big problem for me, and I see, as all other theists, you are not ready to share your knowledge with me.
    Or, maybe thee is NO knowledge at all?
    Maybe you just DON’T KNOW!?

  20. on 12 Feb 2011 at 6:50 pm 20.Mitch said …

    Severin,

    Exactly how did I put the Bible under your nose? If you don’t want to hear the Bible, don’t ask questions about it. You asked a question. I answered. You are an atheist therefore the Bible will not make much sense to you. Let me use it again.

    “The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing”

    I reviewed a previous thread where Biblical interpretation was expounded upon quite well. It’s not a immense problem; it is one of lack of effort. It’s not that you cannot understand, it is because you don’t want to. I perceive one who just wants to dispute, or seek out a one sentence answer? You won’t get it here.

    When you ask the same questions but rebuff the answers, you are beyond helping. It is a two way street. Go back to the thread where this was laid for you.

  21. on 12 Feb 2011 at 9:02 pm 21.Tigerboy said …

    Mitch:

    You can’t follow the logic that this hypothetical, omnipotent God designed, created, and controls EVERYTHING that happens within His Universe? Therefore, He bares all the responsibility and blame for ALL the sin and evil that exists?

    It’s a fairly straight forward concept. Try harder.

    God runs everything. Good and bad. We’re just his pawns.

    Creating us as beings who sin, and then punishing us for acting in the way that He created us to be, even punishing us ETERNALLY for acting in ways that He designed, is sick and sadistic.

  22. on 12 Feb 2011 at 9:10 pm 22.Tigerboy said …

    Mitch:

    Not that I believe it for a second.

    It’s called a hypothetical.

    A totalitarian dictator who watches our every move from the clouds, ready to mete out punishment. What a shrieking nightmare. I am so glad it’s obvious bullshit.

    You actually long for this nightmare?

    You find comfort in it?

    Sounds horrific.

  23. on 12 Feb 2011 at 9:32 pm 23.Boz said …

    I like to kiss Mitch

  24. on 12 Feb 2011 at 10:13 pm 24.Tigerboy said …

    Christian Hicks says:

    —”What we need to do, is get back to good old christian values that his nation was built on. Like godly morality, family values, denying women the vote, keeping rich people rich and sending blacks to the back of the bus.”

    Hicks, I want to thank you. Thank you for demonstrating so clearly how religion leads to small-mindedness and bigotry. We could already see all your misspelled words, but then you just put your stupidity and hatred right out there on a big, silver platter. Usually, Christians make a greater effort to hide their inherent bigotry. Not Hicks. Here’s one Christian who really embraces the fact that he’s an imbecile.

  25. on 13 Feb 2011 at 3:47 am 25.William said …

    Tiger-BOY & Hicks

    We ALL know you are the one and same troll. What you do is give atheist a bad reputation and make us all seem as ignorant as you.

    Grow up and go to bed.

  26. on 13 Feb 2011 at 9:01 am 26.Tigerboy said …

    I would love to know what I said that got William’s panties in a twist. He seems to be claiming to be an atheist, which would put us on the same side of these issues.

    Which of my comments caused an atheist to call me “ignorant?” Just curious.

    Most of my comments on this thread have had to do with supporting a very specific point made by Thunderf00t, in the video.

    William, are you claiming Thunderf00t is “ignorant” and gives atheists a “bad reputation,” too? ‘Cuz, we are saying the same thing, and I happen to think Thunderf00t makes a lot of sense. I think he’s pretty smart.

    I make no claims that I say ANYTHING nearly as artfully as he would, but Thunderf00t and I are discussing the very same things. The logical fallacies inherent to wishing for absolutes like “eternal paradise.”

    Why is that ignorant? I don’t get it.

    Also, I’m not sure why you think I have anything to do with Hicks. I commented to Hicks exactly once. Now, all of the sudden, “we ALL know you are the one and same troll.”

    Really.

    Guess again, William.

    (I have to say that I’m not all that impressed with your powers of deduction.)

  27. on 13 Feb 2011 at 2:20 pm 27.Anti-Theist said …

    What we (depicting multiple entities) have discussed here in the past is the intrigue of “rationalists” breaking down into frothing combatants toward each other and toward theists whom remain uninterested in our views of reality. If an obvious satire posted by the alleged Christian hick is enough to turn self claiming, respectful personalities against one another; maybe naps are in order. Do not neglect your pride / dignity here; they are quite needed in this place that the Christians are attempting to make too hostile to frequent.

  28. on 13 Feb 2011 at 3:26 pm 28.Tigerboy said …

    The “Christian Hicks” comment was not “obvious satire” to me the first time I read it. I have encountered similar posts, on other blogs, that were absolutely genuine. “Hicks” made hateful statements. I felt the need to respond.

    Upon rereading it, I now recognize that it is really, really unlikely to be real. I was fooled by the satire, and I apologize for responding to it.

  29. on 13 Feb 2011 at 6:02 pm 29.Severin said …

    Tigerboy

    I think CH’s post was sarcasm, but gentleman should explain hiself.

  30. on 13 Feb 2011 at 8:13 pm 30.Burebista said …

    It is the same old low down tactic used by some atheist. Post a hateful rant, pretend to be Christian and consequently make the religious look like bigoted dolts. Its been done here before.

    Its quite obvious when it appears. Pointing out Tigerboy as the obvious source is not beyond belief. Anyone who would hold up a stuttering insiduously-snide and snarkily-arrogant You-Tube intellectual as a source is a likely candidate.

  31. on 18 Feb 2011 at 2:22 am 31.BJE said …

    its true tho even if he is just trolling because there are many christians who still believe in that biggotry

  32. on 18 Feb 2011 at 2:44 am 32.BJE said …

    My opinion:

    I believe that no one knows for sure what the truth is. Both sides have an argument that is faulty to some degree.

    I do accept that the atheist argument is not perfect. However, the christian argument is MUCH less believable; nothing more than so called “Facts” and “Truths” from an ancient MAN MADE DOCUMENT. Now Christians, answer me this: If I claimed god was telling me to write down “x” in a document, (x being a variable), would you believe “x”? If X was that Jesus is our saviour, you would undoubtedly agree. If X was “Humans can physically swim down to the bottom of the Atlantic Trench and live” you would tell me that I’m Wrong. But how can you know what “God” told me?

    BECAUSE THERE IS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT HUMANS CANNOT SWIM TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ATLANTIC TRENCH.

    so…..what did we learn……….?

    We learnt that EVIDENCE IS THE BEST MEASURING STICK…..

    Anyone claiming to have a Connection with God is having an interpersonal connection with THIER OWN CONSCIENCE!!!!

    If, by chance, there is a supernatural being, which is a possibility (however possible is up to you), what are the chances he is this vengeful CHRISTIAN GOD wanting to punish his own creation???

    hmmmm…….id say infinitely low….

    Sorry christians…..deal with it

  33. on 22 Feb 2011 at 2:28 am 33.Forgotten said …

    The Internet is great, isn’t it? It’s like a super extensive Bible to me. All the information … It’s great. First of all, I’m 14. Call me naive… Whatever. I don’t believe in God or whatever bullshit people keep pushing in front of me. I was/am being raised in an Islamic family. I’ve read the Bible (quite a few laughs there.) I tried to believe… More than you can imagine… I believed for the majority of my life. Throughout my younger years, I would ask my parents impossible to answer questions:
    -How’s heaven like?
    -Who’s going to hell?
    -Where are the angels?
    -Why can’t I hear God?
    -Where is heaven? In space?
    -Will I be with you when we are all dead?

    I was quite philosophical as a child wasn’t I?
    Being ‘gifted’ (as my community calls it — I just laugh at that) with better logical reasoning than my peers… I just couldn’t get my mind around the idea of a omniscient, all powerful God!

    I still challenge people to prove to me God is real. Obviously enough, my age group isn’t exactly the best of debaters…

    I haven’t revealed this secret to my parents… Nor would it be in my best interests…

    But there it is. A challenge to all you evangelicalists by a 14 year old. Prove to me God is real (I would love to believe again — Ignorance IS bliss in this case, isn’t it?)

  34. on 22 Feb 2011 at 6:45 am 34.Severin said …

    33 Forgotten
    You touched me!
    How would I not be touched when I (68) see someone in age of 14 to say something about “majority of my life” and “through my younger years”!
    I am 68 now, and it is wonderful to see someone in age of 14 who has his personal integrity and his own opinion, and uses his own brain to think.

    I would never call you naive.

    Keep using your intelligence.

  35. on 29 Sep 2012 at 10:21 pm 35.Jimbeaux said …

    Prove God is real? You can’t even prove YOU are!

    Brass tacks, the horror that was the 20th century, and much of the 21st so far is being done by atheists. Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant of Detriech Bonhoeffer, and what happened to him at Hitler’s orders. Stalin was a seminarian – anyone calling him a Christian lately? The fact that churches in Germany during Hitler’s reign didn’t oppose him, or excommunicate him is no more an indication of Hitler’s Christianity than the fact that Obama (and many others) calls himself a Christian and not only would allow, but trumpet support for abortion means they’re Christian. NO person, Christian or otherwise is sinless, but please don’t try to convince me that a committed Christian would PURPOSELY engineer the murder of six millions Jews and still be an actual, believing Christian, as this kind of contention is fit only for the pages of “The Inquirer”. Throughout history, the big murderers have been avowedly atheist. If you wish to be an atheist, be one, but don’t engage in silliness such as Hitler was a Christian, unless you are willing to ignore the MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary, which ignorance is sadly the hallmark of the average atheist, who hates God and His followers not from any rigorous study, but because they hate a God who would dare call them sinners, and who would dare call them to repentance for the same.

  36. on 29 Sep 2012 at 10:35 pm 36.Lou(DFW) said …

    35.Jimbeaux said …

    Now that your rant is over, please provide some evidence for your imaginary god.

  37. on 29 Sep 2012 at 10:42 pm 37.Lou(DFW) said …

    35.Jimbeaux said …

    “[I]gnorance is sadly the hallmark of the average atheist, who hates God and His followers not from any rigorous study, but because they hate a God who would dare call them sinners, and who would dare call them to repentance…”

    Oh boy, here we go with another drive-by nutcase who must lie about atheists in order to support his god delusion.

  38. on 30 Sep 2012 at 12:28 am 38.alex said …

    “Prove God is real? You can’t even prove YOU are!”

    ok, idiot. i don’t exist. is that your god proof?

    ok. hitler wasn’t a christian. is that your weakass proof for your bullshit god?

    your shitty, childish diversions don’t work here. pointing out other irrelevant shit ain’t gonna prove your god, you fucken moron. get the fuck outta here.

  39. on 30 Sep 2012 at 7:23 am 39.Severin said …

    35 Jimbeaux
    “Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant”

    Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922:
    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. …”

    He continued his speeches full of hate for next 12 years as DECLARED CHRISTIAN.
    Millions of declared Christians were listening to him, and finally VOTED for him, in the most democratic elections ever.

    There were practically no atheists in Germany of that time.
    A Christian spoke, and Christians voted for him.

  40. on 30 Sep 2012 at 4:56 pm 40.Anonymous said …

    Jimbeaux, thank you for showing us the true and hateful side of Christianity. Your post is full of fail from start to finish.

    You argument that Hitler couldn’t have been a Christian because he was responsible for genocide is ludicrous. Apparently you have not read your bible nor have your studied history. Christianity, and your god Yahweh, exude intolerance, xenophobia, and hatred.

    Where you excelled at demonstrating what a disgusting excuse for a human being you *personally* are was in your reference to Bonhoeffer.

    Apparently you feel that one Christian is “worth” more than the lives of nearly six million Jews. How astonishingly perverse you must be.

    You are a disgusting and despicable excuse for a human being and as good as example that anyone could have of how religion turns ordinary people into evil and despicable monsters. It’s too bad that hell doesn’t exist – you belong there along with the rest of your Christian soldiers.

  41. on 30 Sep 2012 at 5:25 pm 41.DPK said …

    Notice the logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty. Jimbeax starts with the “no true Scotsman” ploy. Hitler was not a “real” Christian. This automatically insulates Christianity from any possible shortcomings or failures.. If the priest molests children… Not a ” true Christian”. The crusades, papal misconduct, burning witches…. Not ” real” Christians. Genocide, misnogomy, homophobia, infanticide in the bible? That’s the “old” god of the “old testament”…doesn’t count.
    Then they turn around and equate atheism with crimes against humanity. But notice the atheists position.. No one says “we’ll, Lenin wasn’t a “true” atheist. Sure he was. He was also a genocidal monster. Atheism didn’t CAUSE his genocide, anymore than Christianity CAUSED Hitler’s”
    So, jimbeax’s attempt at provisioning the well by equating disbelief in gods…. (And any gods will do) with being evil falls completely apart with even a cursory examination of the truth. Yet, like the liars they are, they persist with their endless attempts to divert attention, using any means possible, from the one obvious fact… That there is no reason to believe that ANY of the claims they make about the existence of their make believe gods are actually TRUE. If there were, they would simply present the evidence and end the discussion. But they won’t, because they can’t.
    Fail.
    Next.

  42. on 30 Sep 2012 at 7:51 pm 42.Truth said …

    “Hitler was not a “real” Christian.”

    What made him a Christian? What is the test? If you can make the case, I will accept your depiction.

  43. on 30 Sep 2012 at 7:53 pm 43.Truth said …

    “Atheism didn’t CAUSE his genocide (Lenin).”

    How do you know? What is the test? If you can make the case, I will accept your depiction.

  44. on 30 Sep 2012 at 7:55 pm 44.Truth said …

    “Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant of Detriech Bonhoeffer”

    They have no clue who this hero of WWII was and nor his bravery. I’m interested to see if they can prove my two requests.

  45. on 30 Sep 2012 at 8:27 pm 45.alex said …

    “Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant of Detriech Bonhoeffer”

    who cares? say what you want about hitler and it doesn’t prove shit about a god.

    atheists are hopeless? au contraire. atheists know time is short and they try to live right. theists are the exact opposite as they pontificate about in their righteousness, smug in their biblical heavenly fate, and then try to shove their crap down in everybody’s throat. if the idiots are so secure in their destiny, why don’t they leave folk alone and just go on about their shit, in fucking private, in their own fucking wwww site? these rude shitheads remind me of morons noisily, smacking their lips while eating in front of a hungry, homeless bum, muttering, “get a fucken job”.

    what have the atheists done to these theist assholes? protest their anti-gay marriage laws? demanded equal treatment for women? some shit like that?

  46. on 30 Sep 2012 at 9:06 pm 46.alex said …

    “Atheism didn’t CAUSE his genocide (Lenin).”

    “How do you know? What is the test? If you can make the case, I will accept your depiction.”

    caucasianism didn’t CAUSE his genocide (Lenin).

    you fuckers brought it up. you asserted that lenin’s atheism caused his genocide, it’s your proof.

    if you say, lenin’s foot fungus caused his genocide, i say, shit you say, and you ask me to make my case?

    i say saddam hussein didn’t have WMD and you ask me to make my case? gtfooh.

  47. on 30 Sep 2012 at 9:31 pm 47.Lou(DFW) said …

    42.Truthless said …

    “Hitler was not a “real” Christian.”

    “What made him a Christian? What is the test? If you can make the case, I will accept your depiction.”

    First, it’s irrelevant to evidence for your imaginary god as to whether or not any person is/was an xtian.

    Second, you’re a typical theist fraud who thinks that unless their claim is dis-proven, then it’s true.

    Third, who cares what you will accept?

    Do you have any evidence for your imaginary god or not?

  48. on 30 Sep 2012 at 9:33 pm 48.Lou(DFW) said …

    44.Truthless said …

    “Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant of Detriech Bonhoeffer”

    “They have no clue who this hero of WWII was and nor his bravery. I’m interested to see if they can prove my two requests.”

    If you want to discuss WWII heroes, then go to a WWII forum.

    Do you have any evidence for your imaginary god or not?

  49. on 30 Sep 2012 at 10:08 pm 49.Truth said …

    DPK

    Your spokesmen flunked horribly. You claimed No True Scotsman was used. Can YOU prove it? Was Hitler a Christian? If so, what made this true?

  50. on 30 Sep 2012 at 10:13 pm 50.alex said …

    “Your spokesmen flunked horribly.”

    unlike you morons, atheists don’t have a pope, spokesmen, clan leaders, et all. quit the bullshit. you don’t get to ask stupid questions.

    present your god proof, otherwise stfu.

  51. on 30 Sep 2012 at 10:56 pm 51.Severin said …

    49 Truth
    “Was Hitler a Christian? If so, what made this true?”

    a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
    b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
    c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
    d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

    f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

    g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.
    f) Hitler declared himself as Christian. No one ever denied his claims

  52. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:06 pm 52.Severin said …

    Truth et al.

    Hitler WAS a Christian, and millions of Christians who had listened his speeches for more than decade, VOTED for him.
    Atheist did not vote for him, maybe with few exceptions, for a good reason: there were NO ATHEISTS in Germany at any significant number, at that time.

    THAT fact is much more important then the “dilemma” about Hitler’s Christianity!

    Millions of “good Christians” listened his speeches, then they finally decided he was good for them, and VOTED for him.
    Millions of “Good Christians” LIKED his speeches and APPROVED the intentions he indicated in his speeches. Holocaust was indicated in his speeches, and “good Christians” said “amen” to it by voting for Hitler, whoever he was, Christian, or non-Christian.

  53. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:22 pm 53.Truth said …

    Hitler quote:

    “National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.”

    Sounds more like an Atheist doncha think? I bet Lou hangs out at McDonalds but that does not make him a hamburger. Your church membership now refuted,

    If I claim I am an Atheist will it make it true? His supposed personal claim now refuted.

    Would you like another attempt Severin?

  54. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:24 pm 54.Truth said …

    “Atheist did not vote for him, maybe with few exceptions, for a good reason”

    Unless you have proof of this I most throw out this claim. Hearsay and inadmissible. Actually, he sounds like the perfect Atheist candidate.

  55. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:29 pm 55.Severin said …

    Truth

    Lenin was not elected.
    But how many atheist were there in Russia on the beginning of 20th century?
    I will tell you: Lenin himself, and an extremely small bunch of others around him, probably less than 0.5% of population of the entire Russia. Let me be benevolent and say, O.K. 5% (absolutely impossible in Christian Russia in 1917, but let the number stay).

    HOW did this extremely small group of atheists grab the power over hundreds of millions of Christians, which (power) turned to enormous crime soon?

    BY LYING to hundreds of millions of Christians that they, when they come to power, will give people what they needed: LAND, in the first place (Russia was about 90% agricultural, semi-feudal country at that time, but almost all land was the property of nobles, and peasants were semi-slaves). Free education for their children (that was the only part of their promises which they maintained!). Free healing and medications. Milk and honey! Paradise on earth NOW, not after death!

    Christian masses BROUGHT LENIN and a bunch of his atheist to power.
    Christian masses died for Lenin and his atheists.
    Millions of good (but stupid) Christian died from rifles and canons of czar’s soldiers, and rifles and canons of “sanitary brigades” sent from England, Germany, France, Italy…, to help the czar to keep his power.

    What do you think a thousand or few thousand atheist could do alone, surrounded by hundreds of millions of Christians, if THOSE CHRISTIANS did not support them?

  56. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:30 pm 56.LL said …

    Here is a great example for the atheist here. Many atheist were once a member of a Christian church. Should we now continue to call them all Christians even after their demise?

  57. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:37 pm 57.Severin said …

    Truth,

    In short:
    1. Tens of millions of Christians VOTED for Hitler AFTER they had opportunity to hear his ideas and his intention
    2. Hundreds of millions of Christians supported Russian revolution. THEY won it for Lenin.

    WHY is it important whether or not Hitler and Lenin were atheists, when, in fact, CHRISTIANS brought both maniacs in power?

  58. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:38 pm 58.Severin said …

    Truth (finally)

    Truth

    Are YOU a true Christian?

    How could you prove it, if someone required evidences from you that you were a true Christian?

    What could you say in favor of your claim?

  59. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:41 pm 59.Truth said …

    Severin are you 10? Do you REALLY believe Lenin and Hitler came to power telling the masses what they intended to do? Are you familiar with the word politician? You are so gullible.

    Lenin came to power in Russia after the October Revolution of 1917 and with promised distribution of land among peasants, socioeconomic reforms, and an end to Russia’s role in WWI. If you have lived under the Czar you would have liked the promise too. We know what he did to Christians thanks to your ilk.

    LL is right, So you are still a Christian too, yes Severin?

  60. on 30 Sep 2012 at 11:43 pm 60.Truth said …

    Are YOU a true Christian?

    No Severin, I am an atheist. All I have to do is claim it.

  61. on 01 Oct 2012 at 12:10 am 61.Severin said …

    54 Truth
    ” Actually, he sounds like the perfect Atheist candidate.”

    Are you trying to say that Germany was a predominately atheist country at the beginning of 20th century, and atheists elected Hitler?

    More atheist than Christians in Germany at the beginning of 20th century?

    Don’t you see how ridiculous you are?
    Why don’t you accept facts?

    The evil of Hitler and the evil of Lenin, were both brought by CHRISTIANS, in one case by free election, in another case by supporting the tyrant and dying for him.
    If we know that, the matter of their personal atheism or non-atheism is irrelevant.

    They were sick monsters, but good Christians did not recognize them as such until it was too late.
    End. Period.

  62. on 01 Oct 2012 at 12:33 am 62.Severin said …

    60 Truth
    “No Severin, I am an atheist. All I have to do is claim it.”

    As always when cornered, you use lies to get out. Maybe yo want to show your lie as a sort of sarcasm, but, in fact, you DON’T KNOW how would you make us believe that you are a “true Christian”, or “untrue Christian, or whatever Christian.

    Do not worry! We recognize you a Christian!
    But YOU are, in fact, UNABLE to prove it yourself!
    However, you DO dare to try to disprove someone else’s Christianity.

    “Lenin came to power in Russia after the October Revolution of 1917 and with promised distribution of land among peasants, socioeconomic reforms, …”

    That is EXACTLY what I said!
    Are you, in your despair, trying to turn my own words against me?
    So, Christians brought an atheist to power, I see that you agree, by repeating my words as they were yours, but you have no idea what to do with this fact, but to only parrot it.

    Or, maybe you will start trumpeting that atheist were majority in Russia too?

    That is below any line! That is dishonest.

  63. on 01 Oct 2012 at 12:45 am 63.Severin said …

    59 Truth

    Lenin was a liar, a typical, but very talented demagogue.

    Hitler was both, but his hateful speeches discovered much of his future plans: “:”Lebensraum”, “Drang nach oesten”, “Jews are parasites and we need to solve the Jew problem, …”, found place in his very early speaches, years before Christians “bought it”. And, of course, they “bought it (and voted for him(, because they LIKED what he spoke.
    They LIKED the idea of getting rid the Jews. They LIKED the idea of having slaves in other countries, which will work for them. Hitler very openly exposed his ideas BECAUSE he knew that Christian masses LIKE to ear those ideas.

    Or, maybe you are right. Maybe there were +50% atheists in Germany, who elected Hitler (ha, ha, ha)

  64. on 01 Oct 2012 at 12:49 am 64.alex said …

    “Severin are you 10?”

    are you an idiot? yes. clinging to your moronic belief and arguing with atheists? what’s in it for you? nada. just the satisfaction of fucking with people.

    you got nothing but bullshit diversions. hey lookee here, looky there. nothing. your god is powerless and you keep propping it up. go away. your porn has finished loading. make sure you turn on -incognito on your chrome options, idiot.

  65. on 01 Oct 2012 at 1:10 am 65.Severin said …

    I do NOT think that “good German Christians” had any idea about what is really going to happen.

    I am sure that even the stupid Christians would reject open plans for extermination of Jews in gas ovens.
    Hitler did not mention physical extermination of Jews, no!
    However, the SIGNS of Hitler’s intentions were pretty clear in his numerous speeches.
    He mentioned how evil, lazy, stupid, Jews were, and are “sucking blood” from Germany. He mentioned “solutions” in his speeches, not holocaust.

    But, I am asking you directly:

    If you, as a good Christian, heard someone speaking that African American are evil, lazy, stupid, and suck blood from Americans, and suggested “final solution” of this problem, what would YOU think?
    I am sure you would RECOGNIZE THE THREAT, and would be at least VERY cautious to such a talk, even if you, deep in your privacy, maybe did not like black people and Jews
    I do not doubt that you would condemn every sign in someone’s speech that could potentially lead to PHYSICAL extermination of those people.
    German Christians did NOT recognize the hints, and they voted Hitler.
    That are facts.

  66. on 01 Oct 2012 at 1:23 am 66.Severin said …

    59 Truth
    “We know what he did to Christians thanks to your ilk.”

    Thank you, you desperate creature!

    If everyone were “my ilk”, this world would flourish in tolerance and love.
    You can’t know it, but I know, and some 1-2000 people who know me personally, know it.
    I do not need more.

    I am trying to find a human being in you, but you are playing very dirty games, more and more.

    Let it stay on your (Christian) cheek!

  67. on 01 Oct 2012 at 2:06 am 67.Truth said …

    “Do not worry! We recognize you a Christian!”

    No, just as you guys claim that Hitler grew up in a church makes him Christian, my claim I am atheist makes it so. Who are you to question my allegiance?

    I do agree the atheist monsters Lenin and Hitler did deceive the people. They were masters of propaganda. Anyone who attempted to blow the whistle quickly disappeared.

    Sorry, you boldly tooting your horn of how wonderful the world would be if we were all like you makes me want to vomit. That alone lets me know it would be full of arrogance. Yes, your humility is astounding.

    Mr. Humility, if the Germans knew what Hitler was up to, why were they forced to take tours of the concentration camps after the war?

    You never proved that atheist did not vote in Hitler as you claim? Where is the proof Severin?

  68. on 01 Oct 2012 at 2:07 am 68.Truth said …

    Lest I forget.

    I am trying to find a human being in you, but you are playing very dirty games, more and more.

  69. on 01 Oct 2012 at 3:25 am 69.DPK said …

    For someone who has chosen the moniker of “truth” you seem unable to recognize it, and also notably unwilling to provide it.
    Whether Hitler was a “true Christian” or a “true Scotsman” is irrelevant. If you recall, the subject was only mentioned in response to jimbob’s feeble attempt at provisioning the well:

    “Brass tacks, the horror that was the 20th century, and much of the 21st so far is being done by atheists.”
    Which was then promptly followed by the “no true Scotsman” fallacy by adding:
    “Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Christian is ignorant of Detriech Bonhoeffer, and what happened to him at Hitler’s orders. Stalin was a seminarian – anyone calling him a Christian lately? The fact that churches in Germany during Hitler’s reign didn’t oppose him, or excommunicate him is no more an indication of Hitler’s Christianity than the fact that Obama (and many others) calls himself a Christian…”

    No one cares if you claim to be a Christian or an atheist. What we care about is if you have any actual evidence that your imaginary god actually exists. Until you provide that, you are just a fart in the wind, unpleasant, but of little consequence.
    Why don’t you stop trying to divert attention by arguing about whether atheists or Christians elected Hitler? (Seriously? That’s your position? Sad.) Why don’t you just present your evidence for god, so we can show you what an idiot you are for actually believing it?

  70. on 01 Oct 2012 at 3:57 am 70.DPK said …

    I don’t know why spell check keeps changing “poisoning” to “provisioning”, but of course I meant to write “poisoning the well”…..

  71. on 01 Oct 2012 at 5:43 am 71.Lou(DFW) said …

    66.Severin said …

    59 Truth
    “We know what he did to Christians thanks to your ilk.”

    “Thank you, you desperate creature!”

    It’s your time, but you are wasting it on an obvious nut.

  72. on 01 Oct 2012 at 7:42 am 72.Severin said …

    67 Truth
    “No, just as you guys claim that Hitler grew up in a church makes him Christian, my claim I am atheist makes it so.”

    O.K., fine.

    I intuitively recognize not specifically Christians, but generally religious people, from their way of debating.
    I might be wrong in my “classification”, because I really do not know WHAT is it that makes one a Christian.

    Why are you avoiding telling us?
    Are Christian attributes secret? Maybe something you should be ashamed of?

    Tell us, what specific attributes, characteristics, deeds, look, food, (whatever) makes one a Christian.

    If you can’t explain THAT, then how is it possible that you can recognize non-Christians?

    Was Pinochet a Christian, for example?
    Were the judges who sent Salem witches to death Christians?
    Were popes who were on top of inquisition and burned people Christians?
    Was the judges who burned Giordano Bruno Christians?
    What about slave holders in America in 19th century, were they Christians?
    Or, were they all atheists, or WHAT?

    WHAT are criteria for being a Christian.

  73. on 01 Oct 2012 at 8:01 am 73.Severin said …

    67 Truth
    “You never proved that atheist did not vote in Hitler as you claim?”

    I don’t have to. What I actually said was that CHRISTIANS brought Hitler to power.
    I will gladly accept possibility that I was wrong, and that ALL atheists in Germany voted for Hitler.

    YOU said atheists brought him to power.
    (“Hitler was an atheist candidate”)

    Now, you only have to tell us how many atheists were there in Germany to win elections.
    Simple math tells me: at least 50% of adult population.
    So, Truth, were there 50% atheists in Germany to over-vote Christians and bring Hitler to power?

    Simple “yes” or “no” will do.

  74. on 01 Oct 2012 at 3:23 pm 74.DPK said …

    Severin…. Truth’s definition of a “Christian” is anyone he says is a christian, and his definition of “not a christian” is likewise anyone he says is not a christian.
    The theists must try and maintain the ability to move the goalposts at will. It is the only way they can continue to rationalize their silly beliefs.
    Then they demand you prove a negative:
    “You never proved that atheist did not vote in Hitler as you claim? Where is the proof Severin?”

    Ehem… Mr. “Truth”… YOU never proved that Zeus didn’t create the universe. Where is your proof, Truth?

    Now, if you are done trying to divert attention away from the fact that you and all the other theists here continually, and pathetically, avoid the actual topic of discussion, perhaps you can add something of substance to the conversation and provide the evidence that the god you want so desperately for everyone to believe in and worship actually exists. Until you do that, all your yapping and squawking is meaningless. How about it, “Truth”? Will you pick up the gauntlet that all the other theists here have dropped and give it a shot? Show us why we should believe ANYTHING you claim about the nature or reality of your imaginary, magical god.

  75. on 29 Jul 2013 at 9:07 pm 75.Steve Finnell said …

    WHAT CAN I DO TO NOT BE SAVED?

    What can you do to not be saved? In order to not be saved, all you have to do is ignore the New Covenant terms for pardon.

    The following are some of the ways you cannot be saved under the New Covenant.

    1. You cannot be saved by a whirlwind.

    2 Kings 1-11 And it came about when the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven…..11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

    You cannot be saved by a whirlwind under the New Covenant terms of pardon.

    2. You cannot be saved by works of love and faith.

    Luke 7:44-50 ……47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; ….50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    The woman had her sins forgiven because she washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, kissed His feet, and anointed His feet with perfume. She loved much and had faith. Men today cannot be saved by works of love and faith. That is not the terms of forgiveness under the New Covenant.

    3. You cannot be saved by the publican parable.

    Luke 18:9-14 …..But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!” 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Men today cannot be justified like the publican. The publican did not confess that Jesus was resurrected from the grave. There is no evidence the publican even believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Simply saying a humble prayer to God does save anyone. The publicans were Jewish tax collectors. Saying the prayer of a Jewish tax collector is not the terms of forgiveness under the New Testament.

    4. You cannot be saved under the Judaizer’s salvation plan.

    Galatians 5:1-5…..3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    You cannot be saved by blending Christianity and the Laws of Moses. That is against the terms of pardon under the New Covenant.

    5. You cannot be saved like the thief on the cross.

    The thief believed that Jesus was the Christ.(Luke 23:39)
    The thief feared God.(Luke 23:40)
    The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. (Luke 23:42)
    Was thief saved? Yes.

    The thief did not believe in his heart that Jesus was raised from the dead by God the Father.(Romans 10:9)
    The thief was not baptized in water. (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Peter 3:21)

    If you believe you can be saved like the thief, then you have to believe you can be saved without being baptized in water, and that you can be saved without believing in your heart that God resurrected Jesus from the grave

    The thief died under the old covenant and got a direct pardon from Jesus. Men, today, are living under the New Covenant. You cannot be nailed to the cross today and get a direct pardon from Jesus. Jesus is not on the cross He has been raised from the dead by God the Father.

    6. You cannot be saved like Enoch.

    Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God: and he was not, for God took him.

    Enoch did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Was Enoch saved?Yes.
    Enoch did not confess that God raised Jesus from the dead. Was Enoch saved? Yes.
    Enoch did not believe that Jesus shed His blood on the cross so he could have his sins washed away.. Was Enoch saved? Yes.
    Enoch was not baptized in water. He was not immersed for the forgiveness of his sins. Was Enoch saved? Yes.
    Was Enoch born of the Spirit? No. The Holy Spirit of promise was not given until the Day of Pentecost. Was Enoch saved? Yes.

    Can men today be saved like Enoch? Absolutely not. Men, today, can only be saved by meeting the terms of pardon under the New Covenant, also know as the New Testament.

    7. You cannot be saved like the paralytic.

    Luke 5:18-20 And some men were carrying on a bed a man who paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and set him down in front of Him. 19 But not finding any way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down through the tiles with his stretcher, into the middle of the crowd, in front of Jesus. 20 Seeing their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

    Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic because of the faith of friends. Can men today be saved like the paralytic? No, they cannot.

    The paralytic was saved without personal faith.
    The paralytic was saved without repenting.
    The paralytic was saved without confessing Jesus as the Son of God.
    The paralytic was saved without being baptized.
    The paralytic was saved without believing that God raised Jesus from the dead.
    The paralytic was saved without confessing Jesus as Lord and Christ.
    The paralytic was saved before the New Covenant was available.

    TO BE SAVED TODAY MEN HAVE TO MEET THE TERMS OF PARDON UNDER THE NEW COVENANT.

    The New Covenant was not in effect until Jesus died. The birth of the church of Christ was the Day of Pentecost.

    Hebrews 9:15-17 For this reason He is the mediator of the new covenant, so that , since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who lives made it.

    The apostle Peter told all men how to be saved under the New Covenant. (Acts 2:22-41)

    NEW COVENANT TERMS FOR PARDON.

    FAITH: John 3:16
    REPENTANCE: Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Luke 24:47
    CONFESSION: Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:37
    WATER BAPTISM: Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22:16, Colossians 2:12-13, Titus 3:5, John 3:5, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-7

    YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY CHRISTIAN BLOG. Google search>>>>steve finnell a christian view

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