Feed on Posts or Comments 25 May 2018

Christianity Thomas on 01 Feb 2011 12:16 am

What happens when Christians need to tell the truth? Frequently they cannot

What happens when Christians need to tell the truth? Frequently they cannot. We see this regularly on Fox News:

Another example:

The Wall Between Church And State

Prior to the Christian Right Wing movement, the government of the United States operated as a neutral body that did not favor any one religion over another. God was not mentioned on our money, nor was God part of the Pledge of Allegiance. There were no national day’s of prayer, and churches were NOT exempt from paying taxes. Even the Founders themselves believed in separation of church and state. For example, in an 1802 letter to the Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut, Thomas Jefferson wrote…

But not anymore…

The first part of their plan is to “re-educate” Americans by rewriting history to favor their cause. That includes creating false quotes attributed to the Founding Fathers. The main perpetrator of this practice, is David Barton, President of his Wallbuilders organization and Glenn Beck pal. Barton has freely admitted to creating quotes and falsely attributing them to Founding Fathers. Here are three made up quotes by Barton.

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”
– false quote attributed to Patrick Henry

“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
– false quote attributed to George Washington

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves … according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
– false quote attributes to James Madison

Why do Christians have so much trouble with the truth?

51 Responses to “What happens when Christians need to tell the truth? Frequently they cannot”

  1. on 01 Feb 2011 at 4:24 pm 1.Hoartio said …

    I don’t see the connection to Fox News report and quotes from the founders. Fox haters are like the guys who get beat up on a regular basis by a more superb athlete. Fox is more accurate, more balanced and more fair than the other guys thus they crush the competition.

    Just look at MSNBC and CNN.

    For the founders, our blog-master states the position incorrectly right off the bat. This is typical of the the lunatic left. Lets look:

    “Prior to the Christian Right Wing movement, the government of the United States operated as a neutral body that did not favor any one religion over another.”

    This has never been the claim. The claim IS, that God has been a major part of our government and it is the God of the Judeo-Christian heritage. This is without question. The actions, the quotes, the DI and men who founded the natio leave no doubt.

    Prayer in Congress, school and special events
    Bible Study in Congress, school and special events
    Holidays for christian-based parades!

    The historical revisionist, again with great boredom, refer to the Danbury Baptist letter. First, not a part of the Constitution or any Federal document. Second, written to insure Danbury no state church would be formed.

    Sorry fellas, facts hurt sometimes.

    BTW, Amsterdam has a underbelly of absolute horrible filth. That is fact as well.

  2. on 01 Feb 2011 at 9:34 pm 2.Hello21 said …

    So Horatio, do you think the government should be openly christian? Which christian laws should be put in place and should we follow that aren’t in place now? What would you change about government to be more or less christian? Do you think we should go the way of Saudi Arabia and become a theocracy with the main difference being that we are a christian theocracy whereas theirs is a muslim theocracy? I’m interested to know what it is you are advocating exactly.

  3. on 03 Feb 2011 at 2:32 am 3.Sister Chromatid said …

    Oopsy, Horatio– your news viewing habits and faith based reasoning have made you wrong again!

    Fox News viewers are the MOST uninformed: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/john-farrell/2010/12/22/university-study-fox-viewers-more-misinformed.html

    Of course, who needs facts, when you have faith, eh?

    Not Christians!

  4. on 03 Feb 2011 at 2:45 am 4.Horatio said …

    Hmmmm Chromosome

    So what does this have to do with Fox News? University of Maryland? US News? Uh, yeah sure. You run with that if it makes you feel better. Can you point out how this poll makes a “FACT”? LOL!

    Fox the most trusted according to this poll!


    LOL!! You are so silly

  5. on 03 Feb 2011 at 4:50 pm 5.Anti-Theist said …

    Most Christians inherit their life of fabrication and dishonesty, but once they reach our governments age of consent they become accountable for believing what they’ve been told to believe by the pedophiles and bigots running their churches. Theists have trouble with the truth due to the fact that the most important thing in their life, more important than their children, wives, careers, or health; requires that they be as gullible foolish children to believe in it.

  6. on 04 Feb 2011 at 11:10 am 6.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #2

    “I’m interested to know what it is you are advocating exactly.”

    Me too. But it looks likes you’re not going to get an answer from him on this one, H21. I think you put him on the spot.

    Although, having dealt with these Christbots many times, I can likely give you a reasonable guess:

    Forced prayer and bible study in the schools. Same-sex marriage abolished and homosexuality made punishable by prison (although to be truly biblical, they’d have to be executed). Abortion for any reason outlawed and those seeking and those providing such would be jailed (or, again, executed to be biblically accurate). No unmarried couples allowed to live together. No divorces. Adulterers jailed. Keep foreigners with their demonic religions out of the country or force them to convert if they’re already here and want to remain. Observance of the Sabbath strictly enforced. No scientific studies that would contradict anything in the bible. Women’s fashions would of course change drastically. Oh, and guns for everyone.

    Is that about right? Did I miss anything?

  7. on 04 Feb 2011 at 1:03 pm 7.Horatio said …

    “I’m interested to know what it is you are advocating exactly.”

    Hello21 you are not a comprehensive reader? I’m advocating the freedoms our founders had in place when they put the union together. If you are not clear on what these are, read a history book written before 1950.

    John John,

    You cannot abolish something that has never been legal silly. But you are correct, I don’t believe in redefining a word to suit a few in the minority.

    Don’t like that 2nd amendment hey there lefty? lol Yes, I’m packing.

  8. on 04 Feb 2011 at 3:21 pm 8.Anonymous said …

    RE: #7

    “Don’t like that 2nd amendment hey there lefty? lol Yes, I’m packing.

    Not enough faith in Jesus to protect you, I guess. You gotta love the xian mindset: “I trust in Jesus! I have faith in God!” But just in case he is only imaginary…

    Heh heh. Love it.

  9. on 04 Feb 2011 at 5:51 pm 9.Horatio said …


    It gets even better. I own a car too! I thank God for both especially with wingnuts like you running around. Ah, the predictability of the simple mind.

    You pasty white basement dwelling pot smokers do not need to fear the guns of us legal carrying citizens. Fear your enemies. The tea-baggers, the conservatives and republicans.

  10. on 04 Feb 2011 at 7:54 pm 10.JohnnyP said …

    Gee, Hor. You didn’t explain why you need guns to protect you when you’ve got Jesus…? Maybe just a weeee bit of doubt in there, huh?

  11. on 04 Feb 2011 at 8:45 pm 11.Lou said …


    Some people hunt. This is what men/woman do to kill animals for food. You might have heard of it.

    Jesus is protecting Horatio. He provided a gun to ward off the evil and maybe hunt.

    Why do you hate guns? Do you deny people protect themselves and hunt for food?

  12. on 04 Feb 2011 at 10:26 pm 12.JohnnyP said …

    Hi Lou. Nice to meet you.

    No, see Horatio specifically stated “I thank God for [guns] especially with wingnuts like you running around”, which clearly indicates he has it for protection. He said not a word about hunting.

    “Jesus is protecting Horatio. He provided a gun to ward off the evil and maybe hunt.”

    So Jesus provides the guns. I didn’t know that. Be sure to ask Him why He provided those Columbine dudes with theirs (for starters). Please post back and let me know what He says.

    “Why do you hate guns? Do you deny people protect themselves and hunt for food?

    Whether I hate guns or not really isn’t the issue. I’m just trying to understand why a christian needs a gun. But now I’ve learned that faith in Jesus doesn’t mean you believe he’ll protect you. He just provides you with a gun and
    let’s you fend for yourself. So your faith is actually in the gun. Okay, I get it now. Sorry for my ignorance. I always thought you guys believed Jesus has your backs. Thanks for clearing that up.

  13. on 04 Feb 2011 at 11:40 pm 13.Lou said …

    “Whether I hate guns or not really isn’t the issue. ”

    Sure it is, I made it an issue. Why do you hate guns? You made guns the issue, now I expand the issue. Do you hate hunting too? Killing animals for food is a bad idea? C’mon, come clean Johnny. I bet you hate our founders too?

    I have two rifles and I target shoot. Ah, another reason to own.

    Let me provide a quick language study. The fact Hor does not say he hunts with guns does not mean he doesn’t hunt.

    That is an assumption by admission you cannot make.

    So, again, why do you hate guns?

    Nice to meet you Johnny,

    Why do you hate guns? Then I promise to give an answer to the columbian dudes.

  14. on 05 Feb 2011 at 3:59 am 14.JohnnyP said …

    So we’re going to do the ol’ Christian Side-Step, are we? You know, where you attempt to detract from the question at hand by making an issue instead of whether I hate guns and even throwing an accusation of hating our founders in there(???). Nice try. But, okay, we’ll do it your way. I don’t hate guns (or our founders). I personally don’t feel the need to shoot at things. I’d prefer guns be exclusively for use by law-enforcement officers. The fact that any nutjob can own a gun makes me just a tad nervous. Okay? I can understand how the average person could think of it as protection. But a christian? What happened to faith and/or trust in Jesus to “deliver us from evil”?

    Which now brings us back to the real issue…

    “The fact Hor does not say he hunts with guns does not mean he doesn’t hunt.”

    For some reason you’ve taken it upon yourself to speak on his behalf, but whatever. He may or may not be a hunter. He didn’t say. What he did say was that he thanks god he owns a gun because of wingnuts (like me) running around. I take that to mean he has it for protection. Because that’s what he said. Get it? Then you come along and say “Jesus is protecting Horatio. He provided a gun to ward off the evil and maybe hunt.” I’m only going by what you both said. You actually said Jesus provides guns for protection. Seriously, man? I’m quoting you, dude.

  15. on 05 Feb 2011 at 4:16 am 15.Anonymous said …

    I don’t understand how nobody knows Lou and Horatio are trolls by now. Poe’s Law be damned.

  16. on 05 Feb 2011 at 4:49 am 16.Horatio said …


    Lets see where you understanding is here. Jesus promises to protect me from what? I’d love to hear what you believe in this realm. I read Dawkins and was in awe.

    I have a gun for protection if I need it provided to me by God through the ability to work and run a business. Lets say my country trained me well in that capacity. You probably think all of our military are sorry Christians for carrying weapons. Would that be the case Johnny?

    I understand where you are coming from. Being an atheist, you are more than likely part of the very far left. You like to give hand outs to individuals rather than having them do for themselves. Keep them down you might say generation after generation. God provides me tools and expects me to take responsibility. I trusted and He provided.

    You claim not to understand. You are obviously not a father or you are a very bad one. A good father teaches their children responsibility.

  17. on 05 Feb 2011 at 7:39 am 17.Severin said …

    Horatio, Lou,
    STATE PER 100,000
    (1) Louisiana 13.0
    (2) Maryland 9.5
    (3) Mississippi 9.3
    (4) Nevada 8.8
    (5) Arizona 7.9
    (6) Georgia 7.6
    (7) South Carolina7.2
    (8) California 6.8
    (9) Tennessee 6.8
    (10) Alabama 6.6

    (1) Maine 1.2
    (2) South Dakota 1.3
    (3) New Hampshire 1.4
    (4) Iowa 1.6
    (5) Hawaii 1.7
    (6) Idaho 1.8
    (7) North Dakota 1.9
    (8) Oregon 1.9
    (9) Massachusetts 2.2
    (10) Rhode Island 2.3

    Now YOU compare the data with:
    a) Number of adherents to religion/number of atheists in those states
    b) Weapon legislation in those states

    Then compare the data with Western Europe (1.5) or Canada, where weapons are forbidden to carry around (1.73).

  18. on 05 Feb 2011 at 8:06 am 18.Severin said …

    Lou, Horatio,

    I hate guns, rifles, and all other weapons.
    I hate hunting.

    If I am hungry, I buy food.
    Money for food I earn by working.
    I want my grandchildren to have some animals to see before “hungry” hunters kill them all.
    Are you so poor that you need to hunt to survive?
    Or you just enjoy killing living creatures, well instructed by your blood thirsty god?

    If I meet a lunatic, I prefer him NOT to carry a gun!
    If a lunatic attacks me by hands, I can defend somehow, or run away, but if authorities allowed him to carry a gun, I am dead!
    I have confidence in legal authorities of my country which protect me well enough (murder rate in my country 1.6) and is trying to protect me better (but what is 1.6 compared to Louisiana or Maryland, or average of 5 murders on 100,000 in “Christian” USA!).

    That is the way how civilized people reason.

    I am NOT telling the USA are not civilized!
    But if other people continue (or start) following YOUR logic, you will sink to savagery.

    I am terrified with oyur reasoning.

  19. on 05 Feb 2011 at 12:39 pm 19.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #15

    “I don’t understand how nobody knows Lou and Horatio are trolls by now.”

    Actually, I recently have begun to suspect these guys are all the same person using different names to create the illusion of solidarity. They all misspell the same words and make the same grammatical errors. Coincidence?

    RE: #16 Hor, I’m just going to let your response speak for itself. Most will get it without any help from me.

    Severin, I do admire your steadfastness, not to mention your optimism that you’ll make a dent. Good luck with that, bud.

  20. on 05 Feb 2011 at 2:20 pm 20.Xenon said …

    @17 Severin,

    What? Do you actually allege the larger the atheist populace of a state the fewer murders the state will encounter? Do you appreciate how few atheists are in the US? Do you then conclude all atheists are not gun owners?
    I hate to burst you bubble but Washington DC has the most murders in the nation per/100,000. They also have the strictest gun laws. Coincidence? I think not.

    Guys realize that Anonymous and Johnny P are the same person.

  21. on 05 Feb 2011 at 3:00 pm 21.Anti-Theist said …


  22. on 05 Feb 2011 at 10:47 pm 22.Severin said …

    20 Xenon
    “Do you then conclude all atheists are not gun owners?”

    I do not use false conclusions. I never said that “all atheists are not gun owners”.

    However, % of atheists in most countries in the world (and most states of the USA) fits too well with murder statistics and general statistics of crime, to be coincidence.
    Study statistics!

  23. on 06 Feb 2011 at 2:22 am 23.Thomas said …

    @ Severin

    Do you even read what you type? You make absolutely no sense and your conclusions are ridiculous.

  24. on 06 Feb 2011 at 6:39 am 24.Severin said …

    23 Thomas
    More atheists less murders and other criminal.

    Less guns on streets, less murders.

    It is not linear correlation, but seem to be a rule if you compare statistics.
    I do not understand what is ridiculous there.

  25. on 06 Feb 2011 at 2:09 pm 25.Anti-Theist said …

    From The Times

    RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

    According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

    The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

    It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

    Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

    The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

    “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

    “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

    Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

    He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

    The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

    Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

    He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

    Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

    He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

    “The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

    “The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

  26. on 06 Feb 2011 at 7:39 pm 26.Hines said …

    There are two major scientific methods: observation and intervention (”sit and watch it spin, or poke it and watch it wobble”). This article is supposedly observation, but if so, the study design has to be better described as well as his method of controlling for extraneous variables.

    For example, when comparing across cultures, you can have multiple variables that can account for differences. To blame religion (or lack thereof) for all differences between continental culture and American culture is immediately questionable.

    Europe is better off than America? Hmm. English is the defacto standard, the dollar the common currency by which everything is measured. Foreign leaders send their kids first to America to go to college, not Europe. They stay for the good jobs, the safety, the opportunity. And we have the largest economy by far. Germany doesnt even have the GDP of California. On top of this, Europe is shrinking. Except for the former communist countries, European countries are in long-term population decline.

    Is Europe’s lack of religion plus? To find out, you don’t compare Europe to America, you compare (for example) France 1990-2000 to France in, say, 1930-40. This way you factor out many cultural factors while showing the effect of a more religious, less secular-humanist (if not outright socialist) populion. His failure to control for extraneous factors shows it as failed methodology if not pseudoscience.

    Journals post a study, and subject it to critical review of peers. Most serious social scientists would post to more reputable journals, not this one. It won’t get much critical review, but will create more heat than light. Not even Scientists are above being intellectually dishonest.

  27. on 06 Feb 2011 at 7:43 pm 27.Biff said …

    Ant-Theist as true to form does not review his own post. Gregory Paul is not a social scientist and a member of The Council for Secular Humanism. Hos work was discredited 5 years ago as would be expected.


  28. on 06 Feb 2011 at 8:47 pm 28.Anti-Theist said …

    Politics Daily
    “most untrusted name in news, World Net Daily”

  29. on 06 Feb 2011 at 9:02 pm 29.Anti-Theist said …


  30. on 06 Feb 2011 at 9:18 pm 30.Biff said …

    lol, now a video from a guy called FFreeThinker? I wonder where his bias lies?


    Gregory doesn’t post in a more reputable journal because Greg is not a social scientist, he is an paleontologist and illustrator. Atheist societies have been shown to fail. The USSR and China make this truth so readily apparent. I don’t need YouTube for that reality.

  31. on 06 Feb 2011 at 9:37 pm 31.Anti-Theist said …


  32. on 07 Feb 2011 at 2:32 am 32.Dutch said …

    This is atheism when it hits reality


  33. on 14 Feb 2011 at 3:34 am 33.Steve said …

    Wow, I was browsing the web and found this site and I am glad I did. I really appreciate the authors taking the time to get right to the heart of the issue.

    My issue with most people is that they don’t love the truth and take issue with the side that provides them the most comfort or the most power. I.e.: Democrats believe Democrats never do wrong and Republicans never do right, and vice versa. I really don’t have time for any people like that since they don’t think, they debate. And they’ll never admit fault or change their mind. Surely there are millions of people who do this regarding faiths as well.

    I think we need to look at facts, carefully consider them, and come to reasonable conclusions. Even to the Santa Claus story. It’s a theory out there, and yes, it would be good to review the facts, and I do think that it’s pretty clear that this is a fable.

    From my thinking, I am convinced that the theory of evolution is just a theory and looks good on the chalk board, but it doesn’t make sense. Where are the facts? Where are the supposed missing links. Gee, we find one possible missing link and go ape (bad pun), but if this has been going on for a few million years, the world should be littered with fossils. I was raised secular and tried to believe in evolution and when I think about it, and how the cosmos is so ordered, I cannot believe it.

    The complexity of a one-cell animal is beyond imagination. I am a public school kid and not so bright, but are we really going to believe that billions and billions (that’s for you Carl Sagan) coincidences occured to bring us where we are today? That seems to me to be a lot of faith…faith that I don’t have. And what about emotions…love, timidity..do those make any sense? Are we going to put our trust in the “if enough monkeys sit in front of a keyboard, one will type the complete works of Shakespeare” theory? That seems completely crazy.

    But I don’t get to decide the truth. I hope everyone understands that. We can all debate what the truth is, until we’re blue in the face, and if 100% believe one thing, that doesn’t make it true. It makes it popular. If I disagree with the 99% majority, I’ll get acerbic emails and put-downs from people who think themselves much smarter and advanced than me, and they probably are. But I hope they don’t think their snide remarks will make me believe their point of view. They will, however, make me believe they are insecure and immature.

    If the evolutional “typing monkeys” theory is the proven true, then I will support it, but I think that’s a theory that’s been put out there and I know people who believe it only because it’s convenient and comforting and haven’t taken 5 minutes in their life to think it through. Also, it’s still not made it to the “law” stage that I’m aware of…which is odd for something that’s been around for over a century.

    I think we need facts and not agendas. Aren’t you tired of people trying to force their agendas on you? I have no intention of forcing my views on anyone and I don’t think I could anyway.

    I’ve come to the conclusion in looking at this for 25+ years…probably because I’m slow…and cannot believe that evolution is true. So seems to me that if we didn’t get here by accident, we were put here on purpose.

    I believe the Bible as true. I looked and looked and it seems to make the most sense to me, mostly because the Bible is the only spiritual book that I know that makes predictions that come true. It seems to me that if a book makes predictions and those predictions always come true…that would deserve some special consideration.

    I read a book by a guy named Bryan Mistele, who is uber-smart about Prophecies of the Bible. If you want to expand your reading, take a look. If the Bible text is predicting events with accuracy (we’re talking facts, not opinions), wouldn’t that be something pretty spectacular? One thing I liked about this book is that he didn’t bring the agenda. He treated things fairly, stated his opinion and leaves it at your feet. Isn’t that the best way to talk with someone?

    One thing that I read in all the threads and I feel a need to apologize for is that Christians are often foolish, and often worse. I know…I am one. The church has done more to set back the cause of Christianity than pretty much anyone. Please accept this humble apology. I know if you look at a video of my life with the thought that you’re going to be a Christian or not, then you will not.

    But fortunately, I don’t have a religion. I have a relationship with a God who I believe loves me, adores me, cares for me and has a wonderful future for me. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I’ve given it my best and I think it’s right. Religion just sucks. Sorry, but that’s true. And the church is guilty of pushing it’s religious agenda out to all of you, and for that I am sorry and embarrassed.

    But I am never sorry or embarrased about Jesus. He is the role-model. Please, look at him, not me, not the church. If he is a figment of imagination, then, please ignore the fable. I agree we don’t have time for fables. But read what he said. Love, honor, truth, kindness, sacrifice, gentleness, humility. This was his message. Does anyone have a problem with those things?

    Thank you for providing a forum on such an important topic. I don’t know why God does not heal amputees. I don’t understand why children are raped and the rapists go free. I don’t think I can grasp answers to these deep questions anymore than an ant can grasp interplanetary travel.

    I’ve learned that in this life I’m really not enough. I’m not smart enough, not strong enough, not good enough, not quick enough, not popular enough, not honorable enough. But I have a relationship with someone who I believe has all that covered.

    Best to you all.


  34. on 14 Feb 2011 at 7:33 am 34.Severin said …

    33 Steve
    “Where are the supposed missing links. Gee, we find one possible missing link and go ape (bad pun), but if this has been going on for a few million years, the world should be littered with fossils.“

    There are no such things as „missing links“, or, better to say, all fossils are “links”.
    Evolution is not a line!
    It is a „tree“. Only the ends of smallest branches are „green“: the exising, living species.
    The rest of the tree is dead. The „fossil branches“ show us how the tree growed and developed, and how species died according to changes in their enviroment.
    The world IS „littered“ with fossils!

    „The complexity of a one-cell animal is beyond imagination.“
    So was the atom (rainbow before it, clouds, wind, the earth was considered flat, electricity was not explained, microorganisms were not known…), practically EVERYTHING was „beyond imaginaton“ ONCE, and we know today pretty well how things function.
    Don’t you notice we are learning more and more?
    Are you putting yourself in the position of people who burned Giordano Bruno because his claim that earth is orbiting sun was „beyond imagination“ (AND was deangerous for religion to claim so, as it made religion teachings of that time wrong)?

    I would suggest a little bit more optimism!

    Many things seemd to be inexplicable once, and are well eplained today, and are getting more end more explained.
    If we do not understand something, it does not mean at all that it is inexplicable: we only need time, as for ALL things we explained untill now, which were „unexplicabe“ and „beyond imagination“ some time ago.

  35. on 14 Feb 2011 at 7:46 am 35.Severin said …

    33 Steve
    „But read what he said. Love, honor, truth, kindness, sacrifice, gentleness, humility. This was his message.“

    This was also the message of my mother, who was an atheist.
    This is also MY message, and I do not believe in god(s), neither I accept Jesus (at least not as a god!).
    I do not need god to tell me what love is.
    I do not need gods to distinguish good from bad.

    People who hate, rape and kill, do not need god either: they do what they want, no gods make them better people, ever.

    In short: who need gods? WHAT is their purpose?

    Both, problem and solution, are somewhere else, not in gods.

  36. on 14 Feb 2011 at 12:09 pm 36.Horatio said …

    I rarely read post as long as yours, but your approach from,”let the facts lead to the conclusions” so intrigued me I made the exception. You are correct, very few take this approach. They have a conclusion and they search for bits and pieces to support it. A series I recently went through called “The Truth Project” takes a look at many of these fallacies.

  37. on 14 Feb 2011 at 8:10 pm 37.Severin said …

    36 Horatio
    “They have a conclusion and they search for bits and pieces to support it.”

    “They” means – who?
    Science raised from “bits” and “pieces”, and thanks to heroes who were brave and honest enough to fight their fears before ugly faces of religions that forced them to be silent under threat of death.
    There is no other way.
    Science sometimes wandered to blind streets, but got back to straight ways again.
    From flat earth to knowledge about billions of galaxies.
    From “earth/fire/air/water” (dry/wet/hot/cold) to knowledge of physics, “fair enough” to enable power from atoms, GPS, and many other things that YESTERDAY were “beyond imagination”.

    ONLY your god is an unquestionable eternal idiot, who makes people from “dirt”, and gives them 98% of DNA of primates.
    Sorry, not ONLY your god; ALL gods ever made up by humans are/were the same idiots.
    Sorry again: not eternal, as he was made up only some 2,000 years ago, and will not last longer than Ra lasted.
    Christianity belongs to “expendable goods of history”, as all religions were.

  38. on 14 Feb 2011 at 11:30 pm 38.Lou said …

    Frank Tipler a physicist at Tulane U claims that science proves God’s existence. Its done, not that is was needed. All we really need to do is observe all the design in all of creation. The conclsuin of the existence is SO obvious.

    The REAL trick is to prove Plato existed….using science of course. I have ascertained all of the writings were forged by opportunist who just wanted him to exist:).

  39. on 15 Feb 2011 at 2:39 am 39.Grant said …

    I have always been a little perplexed on why Christians would ever debate the existence of God. It is much like debating with those who deny man landed on the moon or the holocaust deniers. It is a pointless exercise because these are fringe groups who refuse to see the evidence presented before them. You can deny anything if you set your mind to it. It’s not an issue of intelligence but of myopia.

    The history of man and God is intertwined and his existence is proven on every facet of man’s existence from science to art. Let the deniers continue with the delusion indictments and their blogs. Smile politely and back away slowly.

  40. on 16 Feb 2011 at 12:50 am 40.JTK said …

    Grant, those who deny your god outnumber those who believe in him. Just who is the fringe group?

    From your other post I get the impression you arrived here from some right wing fairytale land where everyone believes in the same god.

    If you have evidence for your god then you don’t require faith. That means you have no evidence, but you do like to pretend.

    Lets see you present this evidence or display proper understanding of what the word actually means. Blind faith isn’t convincing in the slightest. I’m sure you don’t find the blind faith of a Muslim or Hindu convincing at all, so you would have to be a hypocrite to expect others to find yours convincing.

  41. on 16 Feb 2011 at 2:52 am 41.Ben said …

    “those who deny your god outnumber those who believe in him.”


  42. on 16 Feb 2011 at 6:32 am 42.evil.exposer said …

    Who created you? Who created blood? Water? Animals? Thought? Emotions? Did you? How arogant and self righteos can people be? Why does Cancer exist? Why is there pain? Why are we not perfect? Your answers are not answers. They are minature thoughts from a created brain that has more capacity than you or anyone will ever be able to comprehend. Eienstein thought the Universe was static, he was wrong! Its growing, expanding, and your mind is shrinking, closing out all possibilities for concious contact in a 4th demension, where God hopes to make contact with you. Sad, but the faithful still pray not because it makes them feel superior or good, but because their soul has a companion known as the Holy Spirit. Dare to dream, and you may see a glimpse either in conciousness or in that 4th deminson. God the Father created things that we cannot understand, it takes Faith and a willingness to die for Him, so that you may know Him really if you take the two most important commandments as spoken by His son Jesus Christ, Have no Gods before me and Love thy neighbor, you have Heaven.
    So many Gods just like you said. So many unanswered prayers,because Cancer exists. Is that your proof? Why didnt Jesus come done off the Cross and beat up Ceasar, do you know why? You read the bible with no belief, how would you know.
    Try reading John,JAMES,Hebrews and suspend your masterful mind while reading it, then try to live up to what is commanded in those 3 books and then come back and say God doesnt answer prayers because Cancer exists. You should look at NDEs alittle closer, and look for miracles that brainy doctors have no answer for. Then go look at the airwaves and how information flows through the air, and try to mimic it. NO I dont mean send out a radio wave to another lifeform in another state or country. I mean try to go through space and time like a radio wave, then when you cant because you cant go look up what Science cannot explain, you might just want to start where Darwin started, and go one step back, the origin of the cell. Non believers have a great deal of Faith in the unknown. Look, please contact me if you have any questions and we can look to see if the answers exist in the realm of reality.

  43. on 16 Feb 2011 at 6:33 am 43.evil.exposer said …


  44. on 16 Feb 2011 at 7:58 pm 44.Severin said …

    38 Lou
    „The REAL trick is to prove Plato existed…. „

    Frank Tipler:
    „God is the Cosmological Singularity. A singularity is an entity that is outside of time and space—transcendent to space and time—and it is the only thing that exists that is not subject to the laws of physics.“

    The REAL trick is to explain what the hell „cosmological singularity“ has to do with biblical god, and with idiots who believe the cosmological singularity came on earth to make people from mud.

    The REAL trick is to connect Tipler’s „god“ with Christianity (or with ANY OTHER religion) and idiocies it teaches.

    Tipler never claimed Earth was 6,000 years old and a god „puffed“ earth from nothing, then made a man form mud.

    To use Tipler as someone who „proves“ YOUR god right is wrong strategy!

    He just DOES NOT support idiocies Christians (Muslims, Ra-ists…) claim(ed)!

  45. on 16 Feb 2011 at 8:11 pm 45.Severin said …

    42 Evil Exposer
    “Eienstein thought the Universe was static, he was wrong!”

    Yes! Imagine: people once thought earth was flat! They were wrong!

    WHAT god(s) have to do with that, I can’t see.

  46. on 16 Feb 2011 at 8:15 pm 46.Severin said …

    41 Ben
    „those who deny your god outnumber those who believe in him.”

    1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
    2. Islam: 1.5 billion
    3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
    4. Hinduism: 900 million
    5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
    6. Buddhism: 376 million
    7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
    8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

    Do you believe Hinduists, Muslims, Budhists (etc) believe in YOUR god?

  47. on 16 Feb 2011 at 8:23 pm 47.Severin said …

    42 E.E.
    “Try reading John,JAMES,Hebrews and suspend your masterful mind while reading it, then try to live up to what is commanded in those 3 books and then come back and say God doesnt answer prayers because Cancer exists.”

    Try reading Leviticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Numbers, Deutenoromy…
    Then come back and explain WHY should we live according to 3 books you recommend, and NOT according to books I listed here.

    WHY, E.E.?

  48. on 16 Feb 2011 at 10:27 pm 48.Biff said …

    “those who deny your god outnumber those who believe in him.”

    Those who believe in a God outnumber those who don’t. And?

  49. on 17 Feb 2011 at 3:19 pm 49.Severin said …

    48 Biff
    “Those who believe in a God outnumber those who don’t. And?”

    So, Christian god is just “a god”?
    One of many, as article “a” obviously implies!

    You contradict yourself, don’t you see?

    Are you living on “an earth”?
    Maybe on “a mars”?

  50. on 18 Feb 2011 at 5:39 am 50.BJE said …

    Biff your logic just made me throw up in my mouth a bit.

  51. on 18 Feb 2011 at 5:42 am 51.BJE said …

    The bottom line for this specific post


    Although Fox news is good for one thing….

    it makes me laugh!!!!!!

    btw, anyone else think Nancy Grace is a terrible person? (CNN)

    i watched her show for a minute and wanted to slap her and ask her wtf she is doing

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