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Christianity Thomas on 14 Jan 2011 12:25 am

A fundamental problem with the Christian belief in prayer

Why do Christians believe in prayer? How can they possibly believe in it given the reality seen in this image:

THANK YOU JESUS

Anyone who takes even a moment to observe reality sees this problem immediately. How can Christians so blithely ignore it? How can anyone who believes in prayer be taken seriously?

92 Responses to “A fundamental problem with the Christian belief in prayer”

  1. on 14 Jan 2011 at 3:00 pm 1.Anti-Theist said …

    These images shake me to my core and they are a prime example of the arrogance and blindness religion instills upon its more pliant followers.

  2. on 14 Jan 2011 at 4:23 pm 2.A Romatic said …

    I didn’t see the proof. Could one of the more pliant followers please lay out the proof? Could it be proof is now opinion?

  3. on 15 Jan 2011 at 10:55 am 3.annonymous said …

    2 Chronicles 7:14; Jeremiah 29:13; Mark 11:24; James 5:16; 1 John 3:22;Deuteronomy 1:45; 1 Samuel 14:37; Psalm 66:18; Proverbs 1:28; Proverbs 21:13; Proverbs 28:9; Isaiah 1:15; Isaiah 59:2; Micah 3:4; Zechariah 7:13; James 1:6-7; James 4:3

  4. on 15 Jan 2011 at 11:04 am 4.annonymous said …

    “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.” 1 John 5:14.
    You cannot just take a few verses out of the Bible and do a video out of it and say prayer does not work. If you took every verse out of the Bible that had to do with prayer, followed God with all your HEART, and then said it did not work then maybe you would have a point.

  5. on 15 Jan 2011 at 12:19 pm 5.Severin said …

    3 Anonymous

    Are you offering Bible as a proof?
    Another theist here, a day or two ago, told us that Bible is just a compilation of ancient Jewish texts containing Jewish rules and customs that have nothing to do with Christianity.

    You, people, should make some consensus about what to say to avoid confusion.

    Why should we trust the Bible?
    Especially in case you, theists, do not know what the book is.

  6. on 15 Jan 2011 at 12:38 pm 6.Severin said …

    4 Anonymous
    „You cannot just take a few verses out of the Bible and do a video out of it and say prayer does not work. If you took every verse out of the Bible that had to do with prayer,…“

    I saw in no verse of the Bible ANY conditional limits for prayers („pray, and it will be fulfilled IF… /condition/).
    There is NOTHING of the sort in the Bible, so you are faking the Bible!
    Blaphemy!

    Matthew 17:20
    For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
    (NO “ifs”!)
    Mark 11:24:
    Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
    (NO “ifs”!)

    John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14:
    Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
    (NO “ifs”!)
    Matthew 18:19
    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    (NO “ifs”!)
    Etc…

  7. on 15 Jan 2011 at 6:56 pm 7.Lightning Boy said …

    ah, I hate to do this but Severin I counted (4) ifs and when you read them in the context of Christ other teachings on payer I read more ifs.

    You really need to learn how to read.

    I did watch the video. Entertaining but I didn’t see any proof. Can someone point out the proof for me?

  8. on 15 Jan 2011 at 10:52 pm 8.Anonymous said …

    7.Lightning Boy said …

    I did watch the video. Entertaining but I didn’t see any proof. Can someone point out the proof for me?

    Are you blind? It lays out the definition of superstition and shows multiple times that prayer is a superstition using scientific experiments. What are you missing?

  9. on 15 Jan 2011 at 11:48 pm 9.Lightning Boy said …

    “shows multiple times that prayer is a superstition using scientific experiments.”

    Explain how these experiments pass as science?

    Are the experiments and conclusions peer reviewed?

    Did you check to see if the one being prayed to was participating?

    Did they check with Scripture to see if testing God was acceptable?

    Do you know the definition of science.

    Maybe if you lay out in detail how this passes as science.

  10. on 16 Jan 2011 at 12:46 am 10.Tedder said …

    Science says that unless an experiment is repeatable, it is not verifiable. If that is the case, prayer is very scientific. According to author Larry Dossey, in recent experiments, researchers held prayer vigils for patients in local hospitals. To verify the outcome, only certain ones were prayed for over a certain period. Different forms and manners of prayers were employed. Of the group prayed for, 75-90% either improved dramatically or completely recovered from their ailment. Of the group not prayed for, everything remained the same.

  11. on 16 Jan 2011 at 2:01 am 11.Anonymous said …

    10.Tedder said …

    According to author Larry Dossey

    The Larry Dossey who is a fraud.

    A real scientific study:

    Power of prayer flunks an unusual test

    “In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.”

    Every VALID scientific study is the same.

  12. on 16 Jan 2011 at 2:03 am 12.Anonymous said …

    9.Lightning Boy said …

    Do you know the definition of science

    This is science:

    Power of prayer flunks an unusual test

    “In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.”

    Every VALID scientific study is the same.

  13. on 16 Jan 2011 at 3:53 am 13.Anonymous said …

    6.Severin said …

    What are you talking about? I just posted verses of things that need to be done before prayer can be answered my God. Like I said before on my post, you have to take the Bible as WHOLE!!!!!!!! and not just take some verses out and say that.

    ” If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14

    ” Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” Mark 11:24

    ” And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” 1 John 3:22

    ” If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:” Psalm 66:18

    You can look up the rest your self… This is what I believe… There is no way you can prove that there is no God… Next time you take some verses out of the Bible and say one thing, how about you take all the verses out of the Bible that have to do with what ever you are trying to say and then say it. God bless you all. I love you all no matter what you say! <3

  14. on 16 Jan 2011 at 7:14 am 14.Severin said …

    13 Anonymous

    Again: YOU say so, thus interpreting the Bible your way.
    I don’t take YOUR interpretation of Bible relevant; if the Bible says one thing and you say another, I believe my eyes, not you. WHO authorized you to give interpretations of Bible? God himself?

    No “ifs” in Jesus’ promisses. He did not say “Read the whole Bible” and I will…”, but “pray, and you will get it”. Unconditionally!!!
    So, Jesus is a lier, and Bible is, accordingly, beside other ugly and inconsistent things written there, an irrelevant book, as his main protagonist spread lies.

    Prayers do not work. No need for statistics:
    ONE single child who ever died of hunger or a disease, after he/she prayed god to survive, proves that!
    WHY would your god let one single child die of hunger, neglecting his/her prayers or prayers of parents, and fulfill a prayer of some other people who prayed for hell knows what (to find their dog, to pass an exam, to be healed of cancer…)?
    If ONLY ONE BABY died after their parent prayed, or a child of 6 or 7 died, who prayed personally to survive, there are only 2 possibilities:
    a) Prayers do not work, because there is no god
    b) God exists, but is a bestial lunatic, randomly, or guided by some strange (lunatic) criterions, choosing whom to kill and whom to spare

    I do not think there is any sort of god, and if you do, and your choice is Biblical god, you are worshiping a sick lunatic.

  15. on 16 Jan 2011 at 9:08 am 15.Severin said …

    Anonymous
    At the time Jesus appeared, some 2,000 years ago, there were some 500,000,000 people on earth.
    There were less than 1,000,000 Jews, or less than 0,2 % of total population of earth.

    Jesus (the “savior”!), let 99,8% of population UNINFORMED about possibility to follow him and to be “saved”!

    He NEGLECTED some 500,000,000 people and just let them go to hell without ANY CHANCE to be saved!
    Those people never got CHANCE to be “saved”! Jesus/god let them UNINFORMED about the chance!

    Being a god, Jesus should have known that Christianity will appear in Europe, Asia, Africa, Americas, much later, in some areas (Americas, Australia) more than 15 cnturies after him, and should DO something BEFORE Colombo/Da Gama/Cook to save those billions of souls.

    I do not ask why your god did not “save” all those people. I am asking why did he deny them the possibility (oportunity, chance) to be “saved”?
    How could Mayas know anything about Jesus?

    500,000,000 people, multiplied by centuries (generations and generations), probably some 5 -6 billion souls had never CHANCE to be “saved”!

    Some Christian love!
    Some god!
    Did he create only Jews, or all those other people?

  16. on 16 Jan 2011 at 11:22 am 16.Anonymous said …

    First off, you are taking your own interpretation of the Bible. How am I giving an my own interpretation of the Bible? Those verses are coming straight out of the Bible with no changing from me… The WHOLE Bible is God’s word, so you take all of it or none of it. Just taking what verses you want out to argue with people does not work.

    ” For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” Romans 1:20

    Jesus has given Christians the the duty to go out into the World and spread his word to the ends of the earth.

    “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:19-20

    ” But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

    Aslo I never said read the whole Bible I said take the Bible as WHOLE!!! Which means if take that the verses that you wrote in the previous posts and say something about them, you have to take the verses I wrote and include them in with yours. Though reading the whole Bible is a good idea. =)

    ” If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.” John 15:7

  17. on 16 Jan 2011 at 1:05 pm 17.Boz said …

    Lightning Boy #9,

    Thank you for the voice of reason and the great questions. Atheist seem to understand science until it comes conducting a scientific experiment on prayer and suddenly they are back in 1st grade.

    The again, a test by Larry Dossey is not considered because he is a fraud. The irony is rich. Seems he would fit right in……

  18. on 16 Jan 2011 at 5:16 pm 18.Severin said …

    16 Anonymous
    “Jesus has given Christians the the duty to go out into the World and spread his word to the ends of the earth.

    He only forgot to give them means to reach other people, like planes, boats, cars…so they were 10 – 15 centuries late. In the meantime, some 5 billion people went to hell without any chance to know Jesus and to be “saved”.

    Were they responsible for that?
    Did they have any idea about Jesus and Christianity?
    Of course not!
    Jesus is DIRECTLY responsible for billions souls in hell for his criminal negligence of billions, in so long a period.
    Don’t you tell me about “love” of a god-man who neglected 99.8% of population of earth without blinking his eye.

    Then, when Christians finally reached non-christian countries, they brought Christianity on their sabres, not in their hearts.
    They were interested in gold, not in souls! They exterminated whole nations to get more gold.

  19. on 16 Jan 2011 at 6:03 pm 19.Severin said …

    Anonymous
    Essential question you avoid to say anything about(of course!) was:
    What a god fulfills a prayer of someone looking for his lost dog, and neglects the prayer of a hungry or sick child?

    What a monster is able to neglect prayers of children?
    ONE SINGLE death of a child who prayed to god to save him, is one daeth too much!

    I personally knew several cases of children in age from 1 – 8 who died although their parents prayed for them and children prayed for themselves.
    A child aged 6 or 8 can not be unsincere when raising his look to heaven and praying his god to survive.
    The prayer of the son of a family I know personally
    is still standing (for some 40 years at this moment), written by childs hand, framed on the wall of his room: “Dear God, I love you, I beg you to heal me not to die, I know you can do what yo want and I was good to my parents and to you and never said bad words and always put my room in order, and I did not pull my sister’s hair”

    What god was able to resist such a prayer?
    A monster, who probably was “rightous” enough to say to himself: kid was lying! I SOW him pulling his sister’s hair!
    So poor boy died (leukemia).
    Or, much more logical: thete were no god to answer anything!

  20. on 16 Jan 2011 at 6:29 pm 20.Severin said …

    “If you abide in Me, …”

    How god expected Mayas, Aborigins, N.A. Indians, Indonesian population, Population of China, Eskimos, Oceanian population… to abide in him, if he never informed them he existed?
    He hated them?
    He was a racist?
    He did not know they exist?

    Or, the most logical answer: there was no god to be abided in.
    Someone else wrote those verses for other interests but “saving souls”.

  21. on 16 Jan 2011 at 10:03 pm 21.Lightning Boy said …

    Thanks Boz

    The definition of science, proof, results and observation deviates as the end result desired by the user changes.

    Understandable since what is important is we prove what we KNOW to be true :).

  22. on 16 Jan 2011 at 10:47 pm 22.Hell Yeah said …

    Here is a question for you theists. If you ever found out that there are aliens out there, would that disprove the existance of your god? You ever wonder why we haven’t visited the moon again? That is because when we did visit it, we found out that aliens are using it as a base. It has been one of the biggest cover ups of all time. If you don’t believe me, do some research. The reason why the majority of people don’t know about it is because the government doesn’t want people to know about it. Can you imagine the stir our world would have once everyone finds out that aliens have always been watching over us and that there is no god? Again, research for yourself before you just say that it can’t be true before you look into it.

  23. on 16 Jan 2011 at 10:49 pm 23.JohnnyP said …

    LOL @ the THANK YOU JESUS link above.

    I actually know a woman like that. “Thank you Jesus for helping me find my car keys!” “Thank you Jesus for helping me find a parking spot!” “Thank you Jesus for getting the cat pee out of my new carpet!”

    I asked her once, if Jesus is so hyped to answer her prayers, why she doesn’t ask for something a little less self-centered, like, I dunno, healing children suffering in the cancer wards around the country. She got mad at me. I thought it was a legit question. I think deep down she knows Jesus never does big stuff like that. Only the piddly every day stuff that could (and does) happen to everyone every day without his help. And of course she disregards all the times Jesus doesn’t find her a parking spot.

    Oh, the folly of it all.

  24. on 17 Jan 2011 at 3:17 am 24.Anonymous said …

    19.Severin said …
    I have no idea how I was avoiding this question since it is the first time you asked it to me but I will try my best. What a god fulfills a prayer of someone looking for his lost dog, and neglects the prayer of a hungry or sick child?

    Well, a question like that is easy to answer because how on earth do you know God answers prayers about lost dogs? Did God tell you he did? Did you go to heaven and say “God why did you answer that prayer about the dog and not about the hungry and sick children?” Did he answer you? You did not do any of that. Just because someone prayed about their lost dog and found them does not mean God did it. So please stop asking questions about that because you cannot say he did answer a prayer about a lost dog so that argument is gone.

    These personal cases that you know of do not matter unless these people were Christians that believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and abide in Him. Which means they were saved. I am really sorry to hear their child die but was that child saved that was praying to God?

    I have looked up a few websites that explain everything you are asking about. I have read them and every verse they show is coming out of the Bible and explain exactly the way it says in the Bible. You can either read them and find your answer or just keep arguing this pointless debate.

    http://christianity.about.com/od/prayersverses/a/basicstoprayer_2.htm

    http://www.rapturealert.com/whataboutfaq.html

  25. on 17 Jan 2011 at 8:22 am 25.Severin said …

    24 Anonymous
    „… because how on earth do you know God answers prayers about lost dogs? …“

    And how, on eath, do YOU know god answers ANY prayer? Did he tell you that?

    God did not tell ME anything, but millions of christians talk and write every day about idiocies they pray for and „get answered“:
    http://www.ourprayer.org/prayers-are-answered/?
    http://www.2christ.org/prayer/
    http://epistle.us/prayerstories/classring.html

    „Just because someone prayed about their lost dog and found them does not mean God did it.“

    Right!
    But why can’t we apply the same logic to everything else, like:
    Just because someone was healed does not mean god did it.

    Where is logic in your reasoning?

  26. on 17 Jan 2011 at 9:04 am 26.Severin said …

    24 Anonymous
    „These personal cases that you know of do not matter unless these people were Christians that believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and abide in Him.“

    You don’t feel how awful your words are?
    That boy was a member of a Christian family, but WHAT if he was a Muslim?
    Was being a Muslim HIS „guilt“ before your god?
    Muslim children “do not matter” (do not count?)?

    Death of one single child MATTERS to ME, dear A, and if it does not matter to your god, if he chooses to save only Christian children and let other (innocent, irresponsible) children to die ONLY because they are not Christians, than WHAT is your god?
    No word ugly enough to describe him!

    IF such a god existed, I would never obey and worship such a monster, no matter what consequences!
    I would rather spend eternity in hell than live for eternity with a spot on my conscience, agreeing to share his double morality with as terrible consequences as killing of children only BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIANS.
    An “all loving god” it is!

    Another consequence of what you said makes me right:
    If only people who believe in Jesus are candidates to be „saved“ (YOU said it!), then he HAD to give chances to others to know him and to abide in him.

    He did NOT give any chances to some 500,000,000 people on earth, he LET THEM staying in ignorance about him for centuries, and LET THEM ALL GO TO HELL!
    He did criminal negligence of epic proportions.
    Very untidy from a god!

  27. on 17 Jan 2011 at 12:42 pm 27.Horatio said …

    You do understand what a God is right? If God created and gave ALL life, how is it criminal for Him to take it?

    Who is His judge? You Severin?

    If you cut off your nose to spite your face that says more about you than God. Frankly you remind me of an ungrateful child who lacks all understanding.

    God is untidy? Hardly! Man is untidy. Do you read about the murders, suicides and killing of ethnic groups every day around the world? The extent and continued decline is astounding. The lying, cheating, selfishness? These are men! Man is evil.

    Since man is evil will you be leaving our ranks to prove a point?

    Number 1 reason for emergency room visits for woman (#2 for men) in the UK is attempted suicides. Why? Despair and pointless purpose for living. A society that has abandoned God has lost their reason for existence.

  28. on 17 Jan 2011 at 1:02 pm 28.Anonymous said …

    “He did NOT give any chances to some 500,000,000 people on earth…”
    Did I not tell you to read the links I put in my comment? The second one explains what happens to people that do not hear his word… But just like most people that do not believe, they do not want to read anything, just argue with Christians even though the answer is given to them…

    How are my words awful? If praying worked for everything in this world what would be the point.People pray for the killings of others, money, sex, and everything else. If God answered every random persons prayer then you would be complaining about that…

    What if he is Muslim? Well, does not the Muslims have there own God? Why would you not yell at their God for not saving that person under that belief?

    Tell me how God killed that child? IF EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH LIVED AND NO ONE DIED WOULDN’T THAT BE A PROBLEM? Everyone dies at some point no matter what… Thing happen that we cannot control.

    My cousins baby, only six months old was killed by a drunk driver that went through a stop sign… The reason why this person went through the stop sign was because he had a fight with his GF like 2 minutes before he went and hit my cousins car at about 70 mph in a residential area. My other cousin and three of his friends were also killed by a drunk driver. My Grandpa was almost killed running through a fire trying to save my sister from a burning house. Should I blame God for that burning house and almost letting my Grandpa die? My other cousin had a fatal disease that he died from at the age of 12. His parents, brothers, family, and I prayed for him and he still died. Since all this is happening in my family should I blame God for it all?

    I do not see why you argue with Christians. There are Christians out there that say they are but do things that are not even in the Bible and say it is God’s work. Go live your life like you want to and enjoy it while you can. If your life is suppose to be with Jesus then so be it but if not then no one should tell you different.

  29. on 17 Jan 2011 at 2:09 pm 29.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #27

    IF EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH LIVED AND NO ONE DIED WOULDN’T THAT BE A PROBLEM?

    Wasn’t that God’s original plan? You know, before The Fall. Wonder how that would’ve worked out…

  30. on 17 Jan 2011 at 2:21 pm 30.Chance said …

    There would only be 1 billion more people on earth. Not a problem. Plenty of room.

    If and buts were candy and nuts oh what a party we would have!!!!

  31. on 17 Jan 2011 at 2:28 pm 31.Anti-Theist said …

    #27
    Why, after you say “live your life”, do you continue to troll this atheist forum? Do you not realize that you enjoy the thought of agitating those different than you? You are an instigator and harasser hear; nothing more. Does your interpretation of your holy book condone your behavior?

  32. on 17 Jan 2011 at 2:43 pm 32.Anti-Theist said …

    Horatio…
    If what you believe to be true is just that, you’re going to look quite funny burning in hell. You cannot call yourself faithful to god when your time is spent hear attempting to defame others instead of worshiping Christ. No respectable clergyman would condone your ventures to this forum under the guise in which you present yourself. You are the worst kind of hypocrite and are indistinguishable from the likes of the Westborough Church.

  33. on 17 Jan 2011 at 3:24 pm 33.Anonymous said …

    29.Chance said…

    I would probably redo the math on that one.

    30.Anti-Theist

    I am having a conversation with Severin on a public forum which is allowed, right?

    Why, after you say “live your life”, do you continue to troll this atheist forum?

    If I was trolling then this post I am writing here would be the after part. =)

  34. on 17 Jan 2011 at 3:35 pm 34.Anti-Theist said …

    Don’t attempt to convince atheists that your priority is to worship Christ while defying the principles you allegedly hold dear. You should be doing god’s work; you instead, prance around hear sounding ugly and passing judgment like just another hypocrite. You would surely be cast into the flames.

  35. on 17 Jan 2011 at 3:49 pm 35.Severin said …

    27 Horatio
    “Man is evil.”

    Sorry to dissapoint you, Horatio, but I am not evil.
    My daughter is not evil, my wife is not, my mother was not (my father was not a “good man”, but I could hardly call him “evil”,)many of my friends are decent, good, non-evil people, and I know many other people who are not evil, although they never believed in any god.

    To be correct, I can say that I know people not believing in god who are not good people, maybe even evil ones.
    To be correct, I can also say that I know a lot of evil people who declare themselves as believers and are very bad people, very evil ones.

    So, in short, being good or evil has nothing to do with believing in god.

    I do not need god to be a good man.

  36. on 17 Jan 2011 at 11:24 pm 36.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #16

    “Jesus has given Christians the duty to go out into the World and spread his word to the ends of the earth.”

    I guess the lazier ones just use the internet.

  37. on 18 Jan 2011 at 8:00 am 37.Severin said …

    28 Anonymous
    I read the suggested link, and I saw nothing there that explains Jesus’ deeds and god’s logic about it.

    Lets see the story:
    People sinned, and god decided to give them a lesson, by exterminating the whole population (big flood), including children.
    God did it for NOTHING: people continued to sin even more after they recoverd.

    Then he decided to make another performance to send another messages to people to stop sinning: to brutally kill his own son!
    He chose for the performance a small, lost corner of desert, populated by some 500,000 people, and DID the performance, and KILLED his son.
    THEN (AFTER he killed his son!) god saw his „message“ will travel to the rest 99.8% of population of the world at speed of one step a century, and decided to „judge to people according to their deeds“ (Romans 2:5-7), not according their knowing of Jesus.

    Clumsy for a god!
    He had to know the communication possibilities among people of that time BEFORE he killed his son! WHY, on earth, did’t he decide to judge ALL people according to their deeds, but killed his son to show – what? – his extreme ignorance and clumsyness?

    What were the consequences of his cruel message:
    a) 99.8 % people on earth never heard of it (or did hear, but after many centuries)!
    b) People CONTINUED SINNING more than before the performance!

    Your god was an idiot who played with his power a criminal way: he exterminated people without any purpose, he killed his son without any purpose…if he ever existed.

  38. on 18 Jan 2011 at 9:01 am 38.Severin said …

    27 Horatio
    “If God created and gave ALL life, how is it criminal for Him to take it?”

    Maybe he had “right” to do what he pleased, but what he did is in collision with his “righteousness”, “love”, compassion”, you fill our ears with, all the time.
    Sorry, but no normal human being can find any „love“, „compassion“, righteousness“, LOGIC, in putting children on sabres, ripping of pregnant women, killing innocent children in big flood, killing of his own son… RIGHT to do something is one thing, and DOING something just because it was your “right” is something else!
    ABILITY to use power is not JUTIFICATION to use those powers the way your god did.
    If your god played with his power in accordance to the „logic“: „I am the all mighty, and I WILL do what I please“, like a stupid, retarded child, then why don’t you say so, but insist on his „righteousness“, compassion“, „love“…?
    Why don’t you honestly say: our god HAD RIGHT to do what he pleased, and he DID it in the ugliest, most illogical, cruel, stupid way.
    Your god obviously did not know that power calls for RESPONSIBILITY in the first place.
    He behaved like a pouting child on a beach, making and destroying sand castles.
    As people he killed were not sand castles, but „his children“, „his souls“, living creatures with sense of pain and feelings, his pouting turned to enormeous tragedy.

    Why don’t you, at least, admit to yourselves, that you are worshiping a lunatic, cruel, retarded, irresponsible god who plays with his powers like an idiot, and just keep worshiping him without filling our ears with his „goodness“?

  39. on 18 Jan 2011 at 9:09 am 39.Severin said …

    Anonymous,
    “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. ..“

    Is THAT the logic of your god?

    I missed to inform people about what was right and what was wrong, BUT if they do something wrong (having no idea it was wrong!), they will still get some lashes!

    That is pure IDIOCY, not to speak about “righteousness”!

  40. on 18 Jan 2011 at 9:21 am 40.Severin said …

    28 Anonymous
    “Should I blame God for that burning house and almost letting my Grandpa die?”

    There are ONLY 2 possibilities:
    a) You will NOT blame god for burning the house, BUT you will also not “blame” him for answering any prayers
    b) You WILL “blame” him for answering prayers, in which case he was obviously also responsible for burning the house.

    Is your choice to “blame” god for all good events and not blame him for bad events?
    Why? What is the logic of such a reasoning?
    Aren’t ALL events his will?

    Then, if you involeve “punishments” in the story, why would god “punish” innocent children? Or why would he punish parents by killing their children?
    What logic stands behind it?

  41. on 18 Jan 2011 at 9:32 am 41.Severin said …

    Anonymous’
    “What if he is Muslim? Well, does not the Muslims have there own God?”

    So, if I understood well:
    Christian god is taking care about Christian children, and Allah is taking care about Muslim children?

    How many other gods do we have?
    And how do you know your god is better than Muslim god?

    On the other hand, IF there is one and only god, a Christian one, and Muslims are delusional, YOUR (Christian) god is irresponsible if he, as an all mighty and all loving does NOT take care of Muslim children!
    Innocent children, whose “guilt” is only in being not informed!

  42. on 09 Feb 2011 at 4:14 pm 42.Jason said …

    We all are born with original sin. Which makes us separated from God. So, if you want God to answer your prayers you must be born again. Which means to recieve a new nature. That is why God does not answer the prayers of you so called atheists. Because you have a nature that is of sin. Repent, by turning toward the Lord Jesus, asking by faith to forgive you of your sins. Then your prayers will begin to be answered.

  43. on 10 Feb 2011 at 3:15 am 43.Hoju said …

    @Jason If you as you say have been reborn which means god answers your prayers then please make one and provide the evidence of it being answered.
    Praying to god to not fall over in the shower today does not count.
    If prayer could be proven to work then there wouldnt be any atheists. We would all believe.
    If I told you that I was saved and then made a prayer that was not answered you would just blame me for not really accepting god.
    Anyone care to share their “answered prayer” story?

  44. on 10 Feb 2011 at 4:10 am 44.Mitch said …

    Hoju

    Prove Socrates existed. Ancient writings don’t count. I just wanted to set the parameters as you did with the Bible. I look forward to your evidence.

    God answers all prayers of Christians. Since you are not one why would you expect an answer.

  45. on 10 Feb 2011 at 6:37 am 45.Severin said …

    42 Jason
    “Repent, by turning toward the Lord Jesus, asking by faith to forgive you of your sins.”

    Maybe we would, if we knew what is the sin.

    Can you kindly explain to us what is sin?

    I do not lie.
    I do not steal.
    I do not kill or torture anyone.
    I respect all people.
    I am always kind.
    I love children.
    I help people, and a lot.
    I never offended anyone.
    I am ecologically responsible in my private life.
    I obey laws.
    I never fall in anger.
    Etc..

    Can you tell me how to recognize a “sin” to be able to avoid it?

  46. on 10 Feb 2011 at 10:46 am 46.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #43

    “God answers all prayers of Christians.”

    Gee, why are there so many sick, starving children suffering all over the world? No one praying for them?

  47. on 18 Feb 2011 at 6:02 am 47.Riteous1 said …

    It is part of his divine plan

    Your simple mind can not begin to fathem his genious

    He only asks that you devote your life to his grandeur

  48. on 18 Feb 2011 at 6:02 am 48.Riteous1 said …

    I just dont understand atheists

    They dont make logical sence

  49. on 18 Feb 2011 at 8:21 am 49.Severin said …

    47 Riteous
    “It is part of his divine plan”

    So, if everything is part of his divine plan, we are nor responsible for anything.

    Godd WANTED me to be an atheist!
    WHY would I even TRY to change hid divine plan?

  50. on 18 Feb 2011 at 8:33 am 50.Riteous1 said …

    It is his plan to test your faith…simple as that….the scriptures say so…there is Evidence of that

  51. on 18 Feb 2011 at 4:13 pm 51.Mater said …

    Ha ha ha ha..

    “I don’t care who ya are, that’s funny right there”

  52. on 18 Feb 2011 at 6:24 pm 52.Observer said …

    #43 Mitch You make an interesting point about Socrates, he never wrote anything we know of. So despite sources other than Plato attesting to the fact he existed, let’s assume he didn’t. So what?

    The point with Socrates/Plato is that he said intellectually important things. In fact, Socrates/Plato is at the head of a Western intellectual lineage that was responsible for the Enlightenment. Whether you are aware of it or not, the Enlightenment had a decidedly secular leaning, as well as being the progenitor of democratic government which did not exist in Europe on any scale from the end of the Roman Republic until the twilight of the 18C.

    On the other hand, Christianity says nothing intellectually useful, or important. It does though provide a very effective means to enslave people’s minds. Just as bacteria evolve to defeat remedies, bad ideas can do the same. Christianity was the form of malevolent ideology and the organizing principal that allowed the Roman Empire to continue, as well as a means to legitimize feckless, albeit shrewd, thugs who claimed the mantle of royalty with the acquiescence of the Church.

    So, while neither the philosopher Socrates, nor the bastard Jesus may have existed, it doesn’t matter. The former was a useful symbol/myth, while the latter is a destructive and pernicious totem to man’s worst qualities.

  53. on 18 Feb 2011 at 8:41 pm 53.Mitch said …

    #51 Observer said “So despite sources other than Plato attesting to the fact he existed, let’s assume he didn’t. So what?”

    The what is this. Can you prove, using scientific methods that he existed? If you cannot even prove Socartes existed, then the fact God cannot be proven is this…So what?

    Your opinion on what is intellectually important is again irrelevant; a so what? if you will. Your anger with Jesus is noted but I sense a bit of derangement and you are also quite the minority. Many may not believe in his divinity, but the majority find his teaching to be noteworthy.

    I’m glad you tackled the issue. I had about given up on anyone having a clue.

  54. on 18 Feb 2011 at 8:44 pm 54.EbonyBooty69 said …

    Mitch u r a homo

  55. on 18 Feb 2011 at 9:47 pm 55.Severin said …

    53 Mych
    ” Many may not believe in his divinity, but the majority find his teaching to be noteworthy.”

    What a perfect argument!

    Mayority must be right! About Ra, for example. About flat earth. About sun orbiting earth.

    Hitler came to power thanks to majority.

    Majority is always right!

  56. on 18 Feb 2011 at 10:23 pm 56.Luis said …

    The atheist ebony disparaging homosexuals. Atheists are such homophobes.

  57. on 18 Feb 2011 at 11:41 pm 57.EbonyBooty69 said …

    Louis:

    Bitch Please. I was saying dat to prove a point…..Religious types are bigots of the highest degree

  58. on 18 Feb 2011 at 11:42 pm 58.EbonyBooty69 said …

    They are racist, sexist ===== religious types are the buttholes of humanity

  59. on 19 Feb 2011 at 12:43 am 59.Observer said …

    #52 Mitch- I am at a bit of a loss as to what you are getting at. Severin of course called it correctly on majority, or more appropriately mob rule.

    As for the notion of God, of what use is it other than to explain away ignorance? xtian faith and theology really leads to nothing of value. Name something new, aside from the most far-out delusions of corpses reanimating, and of value xtian theology has brought about. There is nothing.

    Liberal western society, that is one in which there is personal liberty and rule of law, owes nothing to Christianity. Christianity is all about rolling over and taking it like a punk because you will get your is the hearafter (Hallelujah!!!).

    Read western philosophy.

  60. on 19 Feb 2011 at 1:02 am 60.Mitch said …

    Observer,

    Is the question that difficult? Let me shorten the narrative and let us remain on point.

    Can you prove, using scientific methods that Socrates existed?

  61. on 19 Feb 2011 at 3:13 am 61.someone said …

    So what do you think of coincidence?

  62. on 19 Feb 2011 at 7:19 am 62.Severin said …

    60 Mitch
    You strted first!
    Why don’t you tell us whether or not Pascl’s wager can be applied to Islam.

    If it will make you happy: I can not prove Socrates existed. But why is it important?

    Your turn: why can’t Muslims use P.W. to prove something about THEIR god?

    Don’t know the answer, or just don’t like it?

  63. on 19 Feb 2011 at 12:26 pm 63.JohnnyP said …

    “Can you prove, using scientific methods that Socrates existed?”

    That’s always such a LAME counter-argument. Severin is correct when he asks “why is it important?”

    No one ever murdered, prosecuted or went to war over who’s interpretations of Socrates ideals are correct.

    No one claims Socrates speaks to them and gives them special messages and then demand others comply.

    No one is going over to other countries (or even door-to-door) and pushing Socratic ideals on others.

    No one is pressuring governments to put Socrates’ ideas into public policies and laws thereby forcing them on everyone else.

    No one is claiming Socrates is going to punish anyone eternally for not believing in him.

    I could go on for a while with this, but my point has been made. In other words, believing in Socrates hasn’t done any harm to anyone anywhere any time. If the same could be said about god, no one would give a flying fuck what you believed and these forums, books, videos etc. would have no reason to exist.

  64. on 19 Feb 2011 at 12:57 pm 64.Mitch said …

    “Can you prove, using scientific methods that Socrates existed?”

    Excellent. We have made progress on the narrative. Severin & Johnny have granted that Socrates cannot be proven to have existed by means of the scientific method. Yet, one would be hard pressed to find feasible arguments that he did not exist. What we have is no proof of his existence but a belief based in faith that Socrates did in fact exist. Socrates obviously is but one case in point. The quest for origins is another.

    Consequently, why would one attempt to require the use of the scientific method for Jesus or even God? The historical documentation for Socates pales in comparison to Jesus nonetheless scoffers question the very reality of Jesus. His teachings, his followers and his scoffers do not play into the narrative of his existence. They are but mere digressions to the Jesus chronicles.

    From this narrative we spin off into the query of God. Can God’s existence be proven by means of the scientific method?

  65. on 19 Feb 2011 at 4:03 pm 65.Anonymous said …

    “…why would one attempt to require the use of the scientific method for Jesus or even God?”

    Buddy. Seriously? Go back and read the (nowhere near exhaustive) list of points in #62. If you’re going to force the will of an invisible god into peoples lives you better have some unequivocal proof that this entity exists. The scientific method would naturally be the most acceptable proof for scientifically-minded skeptics. Is that so difficult to grasp? Words in an ancient book won’t cut it. “I feel it in my heart” won’t cut it. “He got me a prime parking space!” won’t cut it.

    “He grew back my severed leg!” would.

  66. on 19 Feb 2011 at 4:04 pm 66.JohnnyP said …

    #64 was my post.

  67. on 19 Feb 2011 at 6:00 pm 67.Boz said …

    “Can God’s existence be proven by means of the scientific method?”

    Since God is the creator, not the created, it is ridiculous to think we can use the scientific disciplines to “prove” his existence. However, the indirect proof in undeniable.
    Only the delusional would believe DNA and nano-machines are self-created through natural selection.

    Johnny,
    Stop lying to yourself. A severed leg growing back only cause you to give more credit to natural selection. Please! No evidence would work for your delusion.

  68. on 19 Feb 2011 at 6:09 pm 68.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #66

    “No evidence would work for your delusion.”

    Oh I think seeing a severed limb growing back would do it for me. Maybe I’m not as hardcore as other skeptics. I’m actually open to the idea of god. Just prove it to me. And not by pointing out the pretty trees and flowers.

  69. on 19 Feb 2011 at 6:22 pm 69.Observer said …

    #63 Mitch- Do you know what the scientific method is? You can answer the question whether or not we can prove Socrates existed. If you know the scientific method, and the bible, you can also make a pretty compelling argument even for the most ignorant and stupid there is not God. “Oh dear GAWD Jayzus, ( insert whatever bullshit you people say to express fealty to your overlord ) Heal ma Granny’s pancreatic cancer and diabetes.” She will die with the same probability as anyone else of similar ethnic and socioeconomic background regardless of whether they are atheist or not.

    How is that for an experiment to prove your “God” does not exist? or at best doesn’t give a shit.

    As for Socrates, as I already pointed out we are really talking about the writings of his affluent student Plato, no one gives a flip whether he was real or not. It is that his IDEAS are worthwhile. Like a good theory, it explains and predicts. The Bible seems to predict the end of the world with fair frequency, but unlike a scientific theory or law, it is not rejected when it fails. As I have mentioned before, and it has fallen on deaf xtian ears, read Karl Popper. There are a couple books of his on the philosophy of science. They are cheap straightforward enough for your typical undergrad to get the idea.

  70. on 19 Feb 2011 at 8:42 pm 70.Horatio said …

    Buster!
    Good to see you are still as odious and contemptible as ever. Too many shots on the rugby field my boy. LOL

    Mitch,

    The Socrates parallel is a great one. Who cares if he existed is now the premier line because they have been caught in a Faith circle. It is the appalling quandary indeed. We do need to sick with the facts like “it has always existed” and yes complex cells did design, create and program themselves.

    If nothing else you unleashed their passion!

  71. on 20 Feb 2011 at 12:35 am 71.Observer said …

    Hor- What pray tell, is a “faith circle”? I know you xtian boys are fond of circle jerks- is the faith circle similar, but where you think of Jesus?

    The real problem here, and in most of these discussions, is the inability of the xtian folks to achieve abstract thought- think of it as something akin to escape velocity. In much the same way a rocket which does not achieve escape velocity will drop back to the ground versus taking off, you (xtian)folk either fail, or are incapable of abstract thought, and so can’t quite get deep concepts and are stuck in your own mental miasma.

    This has to be the explanation for why this Socrates thing seems to keep popping up. Aside from a historian/classicist for obvious reasons, no one cares whether Socrates died from hemlock or dysentery, xtians aside. What is important is his ideas.

    Xtians on the other hand worry about whether Jesus was a reanimated zombie with supernatural powers, or actually rotted. What they should be worrying about is that their entire world-view is insane and irrational, as well as a dead-end.

    One last thing Hor, glad you got a new adjective.

  72. on 20 Feb 2011 at 1:07 am 72.Mitch said …

    Thank you Horatio & Boz.
    Back to the question on hand

    “From this narrative we spin off into the query of God. Can God’s existence be proven by means of the scientific method?”

    Observer points out the xtains (sic) have the inability to think in the abstract. It would seem the facts do not back this contention. The concept of God would certainly be the definitive in abstract thinking. The favored argument seems to have been a digression to opinion on the significance of Socrates’ existence. Again, this point is moot. The inquiry is can we prove Socrates’ existence? We agreed that it was not possible. His existence is a matter of faith in the historical record.

    The new query: “Can we prove God’s existence” is quite relevant. If indeed it is not possible, how would one rationally reach an authentic conclusion?

  73. on 20 Feb 2011 at 1:24 am 73.Observer said …

    This is getting funny.

    Primitive peoples have always had Gods. What was interesting about the Abrahamic god was that in fact there was a modicum of abstraction, whether explicit or not, in that when it was invented, it was recognized that all the ignorance- weather, seismicity, sexual reproduction, psychology, etc.- was worthy of the parsimony a single deity could provide. The Abrahamic god then is one more step in the inexorable progress toward atheism.

    The humor comes in when Mitch, now taking on a pompous tone apes the form of a reasoned argument, but can not distinguish an unsupported statement from proof.

    Mitch-”The concept of God would certainly be the definitive in abstract thinking.” Of course this sentence is nonsense, in place of the adjective “definitive” do you mean the noun epitome? Regardless, what support is there for your argument aside from that you could glean from two paragraphs above? I don’t know what is more pathetic, that you derive support from the likes of the cretinous Hor and Boz, or that you might be as stupid as you appear.

  74. on 20 Feb 2011 at 4:49 am 74.BJE said …

    Boz probably resides in the south and worships the confederate flag too…

  75. on 20 Feb 2011 at 8:40 am 75.Severin said …

    70 Horatio
    “The Socrates parallel is a great one. Who cares if he existed is now the premier line because they have been caught in a Faith circle.“

    You would like it, wouldn’t you (to “prove” that atheists have “faith” too)?
    And, imagine, you could be right, but you will not like it!
    Existance or non-existance of Socrates if for me of the same importance as existance or non-existance of Odyssey, or Harry Potter: I DO NOT CARE whether the gentlemen existed or not, and my possible believing or disbelieving in their existence is based NOT on „faith“ but on quantity and reliability of pro and contra ARGUMENTS. I might, or might not believe in their existance, depending on how I accept ARGUMENTS about their existences, IF there are any.
    It has NOTHING to do with „faith“! If someone thinks existance of Socrates would be interesting or important to me, please give me arguments he existed, then we can talk!

    I base NO beliefs on „faith“, except ONE:
    As I told many times here, I can NOT exclude, by using tools of logic, that some „higher force“ brought universe in existance. It is impossible to give arguments that such a „higher force“ does not exist (so far!).
    However, I do NOT believe even in such a „higher force“!
    As I can not offer any arguments for this belief (that “higher force does not exist), you are free to call it „faith“.
    So, my „faith“ is a NEGATIVE one: „creation“ does intuitively not fit my mind, and I BELIEVE matter/energy was NOT created, but „just existed“.
    IF someone wants to persuade me oposite, I kindly expect arguments, as we all know arguments to prove positive claims are not only possible, but OBLIGATE.

    WHAT some „higher force“ (IF it exists), has to do with idiocies written in Bible (Kuran, other religious books and legends), no one with a grain of brain can explain.

    „Parallel“ with Socrates is not a „parallel“ at all. It is a bullshit.

  76. on 20 Feb 2011 at 9:01 am 76.Severin said …

    72 Mitch
    “His existence is a matter of faith in the historical record.”

    Is using the mobile phone a matter of “faith” in laws of physics”?
    Is using of electricity from atoms a matter pf “faith” in Einstein’s theories?

  77. on 20 Feb 2011 at 1:10 pm 77.Tom said …

    Severin,

    The Ancient Greeks discovered that rubbing fur on amber caused an attraction between the two causing electricity to flow. Volta followed up on this work in the 1800s. Not Einstein. My…and I too have faith in the laws of physics. So what?

    BJE & Observer,

    Thanks for your hate blast. sadly I must say you are such a hateful bunch.

  78. on 20 Feb 2011 at 6:49 pm 78.Observer said …

    #71 BJE You are most likely correct.

    #76 Tom- I am at a bit of loss as to where the hate might be. Me waxing vitriolic? Sure. Perhaps your vocabulary is too limited and that is what you meant. My screed was directed at those dimwits mentioned in my post , and all other dim wits who agree with them.

    One other point, it has been a few decades since I took an E&M class, but the Greeks certainly did not find “that rubbing fur on amber caused an attraction between the two causing electricity to flow”. Rubbing the fur on amber had the RESULT that the wool was attracted to the amber. The CAUSE was opposite STATIC electrical charges creating an electrical field NOT CURRENT. See what I mean? You people are ignorant and dumb. Why else would you believe in divine Jewish zombies, sky faeries, etc.?

    I am not sure what Sev had to say, but Einstein won the Nobel Prize in 1921 for discovering the photoelectric effect- electrical current is part of the phenomenon. Volta is of course best known for his eponymous unit of electrical current.

  79. on 20 Feb 2011 at 8:58 pm 79.Mitch said …

    It would seem the query “Can we prove God’s existence” eludes an answer. Much like Socrates, we neither can prove nor disprove God’s existence with the current scientific record. Could there be indirect confirmation for God (creation, writings, etc) much like we have for Socrates that would validate his likelihood? This, of course creates a dilemma since it would seem science is powerless to complete the task.

    Severin what in the name of Henry is “using of electricity from atoms”? Be grateful you fall under Observer’s blanket of beliefs.

  80. on 21 Feb 2011 at 12:57 am 80.Observer said …

    #78 Mitch- This is beneath asinine. Are you a troll? “Can we prove God’s existence?” We can answer this, and the answer is no. What is more, there is no evidence aside from man-created tautologies. Again, you are abusing language in an attempt to sound intelligent and failing miserably.

    To wit, “Could there be indirect confirmation for God (creation, writings, etc) much like we have for Socrates that would validate his likelihood?” Your language is pathetic. But try this-

    The supposed Socrates was a man. We know there are many of them. Most say nothing of consequence. Many say utterly stupid BS. A rare few say very intelligent things which explain and predict the world. We also know there were other pre-Socratic Greek philosophers ( this is a leap of faith with the xtian crowd since reality is not a significant part of their world view ) such as Zeno, and Thales. SO, it is not implausible there was another philosopher called Socrates.

    Compare this to this God thing. Supposed, according to the xtians, there are no other gods aside from “God”. There is also a complete lack of proof for any other god, as in they do nothing. There is no proof of any sort for any other god- they are just false idols. But somehow this “God” is supposed to be something. Yet, no one can prove it exists. In fact, aside from the earlier mentioned tautologies, there is no plausible reason to think there is a “God” let alone believe.

    So there is no dilemma.

  81. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:00 am 81.Horatio said …

    “Could there be indirect confirmation for God (creation, writings, etc) much like we have for Socrates that would validate his likelihood?”

    Naturally Mitch. Never mind Buster, he fancies himself a smart-feller. The Trolls aka Busters of the world can whine and cry from their mom’s basement but it will not change the facts. God is the default position and until man can somehow prove that design, structure, information can come out of chaos or ex-nihilo it will remain the default position.

    Dilemma solved!

  82. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:17 am 82.Tammy said …

    This is so funny to me. Jesus said it best, in thinking they are wise they become fools. And that would describe you people. Dont you know how scared you look spending so much of your time tryin to disprove a God you dont believe in ? that right there tells me just how SCARED you are. lol I think its hilarious. I dont believe in Ghosts, therefore, why would I spend any of my time in the world trying to disprove them? I could care less if others believe in Ghosts, its not hurting me that they do, but I dont so why would I waste my time studying something I dont even believe in? The fact that you do, proves, that you dont know if God is real or not and the only one you are trying to prove something to here is yourself. How Ironic that you would believe everything on earth, in life, happened by accident, thats harder to believe, than the creator. Yes, in thinking you are so wise you have become fools, but you look wise to your own eyes, you have been blinded by foolishness and you cannot even see just how foolish you have become. Get on your knee’s and beg God to forgive you before its to late.

  83. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:25 am 83.Tammy said …

    by the way, there is no such thing as an Atheist folks, not until the claiming Atheist can prove without a doubt how everything began, but they cannot, they dont know how things began, therefore, that leave the option of a “Creator” as a way it could have begun. There is nothing to fear of God folks. He will certainly ignore you if you want him to, he isnt going to barge in on your life. But you will face him one day, and you wont be able to speak at that point. So speak while you still can. Stop trying to theive away from people the only thing on this horrible earth that is still good and right. Seems to me, if you spend as much time on the garbage going on in this world, then you are spending trying to disprove a good and wonderful and perfect God, you might actually get something positive done in the world. But no, you want to try and take the only good thing people have hope left in, and ruin it. that makes you evil, that makes you a lover of hate, a lover of corruption on earth, you are not part of the solution you are part of the entire problem, but no matter what you have to say, no matter how many peoples faith you destroy (which by the way true faith cannot be touched so you only get the wannna be’s anyway) you will still answer to God, and not one person, who is in agreement with you now, will be standing next to you then. Its not a vote session, its a interview of your life session, and nobody will be there to stand up for you, unless you call on Jesus Christ to be Lord of your LIfe, then and ONLY then, will he introduce himself to you on a very personal basis, that only YOU will have the miracle of knowing he is ALIVE and well, and he is waiting for you to knock on that door of salvation. Dont be lead astray folks, and dont follow the swine over the cliff, they have nothing good for you in mind, if they did, they wouldnt be trying to steal away the only HOPE left in this world. SAD,,, you people are very SAD. I feel sorry for you, living in a hateful world with absolutely no reason, no meaning, and nothing to look forward to but DEATH.. how fun for you!

  84. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:34 am 84.Tammy said …

    Subject on giving everything you have to the poor…. first of all,,,, now that you have gone through scripture that you dont believe in and decided EVERYONE should give up all they have and give it away,, now go through the bible and figure out just exactly what POOR IS,,,, because POOR is most the people in the world okay? Just because one has the internet, and a roof over their head and live payday to payday, ummmm is a far cry from RICH okay? Stand next to bill gates and tell me how rich you think you are. Scripture says the man who dont work, dont eat. Therefore the man that works has every right to put a roof over their head food in their bellies and support the God given family they have. Do you seriously believe God expects us all to live on the street? Youre grasping at straws folks. Lazarus was a VERY Rich man and God (Jesus) told Lazarus to sell all that he has and follow him. Jesus point was, you are putting money before me. How many Christians if face to face with Jesus would drop everything they are doing in a heartbeat and follow him if he were still here in the flesh, I know I would in a heartbeat. but he is here in spirit and until his return we are to work, not sit there and bum off of others, Jesus made it clear, the apostals preached by day and worked by night, hmmm what do you suppose they were working for ???? for fun? no they were working so they could support themselves and not have to live off of other people. Okay so we give all we have to the poor, then we are poor living off the street, then a rich believer gives us everything they have, and now they are poor and we are rich, then we give it all to another poor person and they are rich and we are poor again, and on and on and on,,, are you serious? do you seriously believe this is what Jesus meant? you guys are really grasping at some hollow straws here, post some more of your rediculous ideas of the God you neither know or believe in, he will always come out on top, with the correct answer of your foolishness. ASK God to show you the TRUTH,, he isnt hiding it from you, you are hiding it from yourself.

  85. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:41 am 85.Tammy said …

    And why wont God hear Ampute’s. Because oh wise ones, the bible says this generation will be looking for signs and the only sign they will get, is the sign of Jonah, 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a whale. As Jesus Christ was 3 days in the heart of the earth. No more sign folks, he gave all the signs then and still they didnt believe him. So why would he waste his time, if he gave you signs you would think of some other lame excuses to not believe, he already knows that. Therefore, the last sign you will get is Jesus cominig in the clouds with a double edged sword and you will be begging the mountains to fall on you.

  86. on 21 Feb 2011 at 2:56 am 86.Tammy said …

    Furthermore, do you guys seriously believe that everyone who calls themselves Christian are actually true believers? theyre not. Jesus even said it, many will say Lord Lord and I will say to them depart from me, I never knew you. There you have it, right there, now I dont suspect any of you non believers ever call upon the Lord now do you? therefore he was speaking of people who claim to be believers, but they are not. As far as your stupid so called funny little inuendo on prayer,,, prayer isnt about asking for yourself, thats Vanity, thats self centered Vanity, its about asking God to give people the Spirit of belief, there is nothing on this earth worth praying about, but another persons spirit, so take your little funnies there and understand the situation before you go trying to make jokes on it, because she you dont understand the situation, then the joke is simply on you

  87. on 21 Feb 2011 at 3:29 am 87.JohnnyP said …

    RE: #81-85

    “Blah blah blah blah BLAH Jesus said blah BLAH BLAH blah blah blah call upon the Lord blah blah BLAH fear of GOD blah blah BLAH BLAH blah blah hell fire brimstone Blah blah blah blah praise his holy name BLAH BLAH blah blah blah dirty heathens will get yours Blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH”

    Boy, for the number of xians trolling here when do they find time to praise the lord? Nothing much happening in the xian forums these days? Tammy, I do believe you’ve got it all in reverse. The christbots all come here and mindlessly repeat the same old same old (not quite as…uh…garrulously as you, though, dear) in order to convince themselves of their own idiotic affirmations, ’cause they must know by now everyone else just hears “blah blah blah BLAH”.

  88. on 21 Feb 2011 at 7:11 am 88.Severin said …

    77 Tom
    “Volta followed up on this work in the 1800s. Not Einstein. My…and I too have faith in the laws of physics. So what?”

    I thought energy from fission, not electricity as natural phenomenon. I am sorry if my poor English caused misunderstanding.

    So what?
    Would you trust Volta or Einstein if they talked electricity (fission) in a way Bible (and other religion books and writings) exposes their “truths”?
    For example:
    I am your Volta (Eisnstein), and I say there is electricity (atom energy). You must obey my word and worship my electricity. My word is the truth, it is for ever, and who doubts, does sin against me (us).
    Proofs? How dare you?
    Those people rolled their sleeves up and brought some eveidences for what they claimed.
    Evidences that were clear, could be tested, were repeatable in tests, were supported by some math and logic, were interconnected to other theories….

    I am a sceptic. I do not buy every bullshit someone claims.
    Whether we talk god, Socrates or electricity, I need proofs to accept it.
    No one ever proved that god exists, gods do not fit my understanding of reality, it does not fit logic I learned, it does not fit my intuition either, and does not fit science I know something aout and scientific methods I also know something about, so, sorry, but I do not believe there is god.
    ESPECIALLY I can’t accept gods supported by idiocies written in the Bible, Kuran, Egyptian writings…
    About my opinion about some “essential higher force” (that, if exists, has nothing to do with Bible or Kuran), please see my post #75.

  89. on 21 Feb 2011 at 7:57 am 89.Severin said …

    81 Horatio
    “The Trolls aka Busters of the world can whine and cry from their mom’s basement but it will not change the facts.’“

    The Trolls aka Busters of the world oposed the idea world was not flat, for centuries. Then they oposed the ide earth is orbiting sun, for centuries.
    The trolls aka busters DENIED every single achievment clever people exposed as their opinion oposite to opinion of Trolls aka Busters.
    They (Trolls aka Busters) had NO ideas of their own, but would not like other people to see it, so they killed people who oposed them.

    Today, when T. aka B. Have no more power to kill, they come to a flower and say:
    It is SO complicated! It is beyond MY understanding! It MUST be that it is beyond ANYONE’S understanding. But it EXISTS, it is here, so it MUST be that it was created.
    It MUST be so, because I am too stupid (and too lazy) to even consider any other explanation.

    I would not believe in god even if the very first man who landed on mars reported he found an used condom there.
    I would search for more logical explanations.

    Trolls aka Busters would probably say: AHA!!!

    Then, they would probably start to think: was it, perhaps, adultery?

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