Feed on Posts or Comments 30 August 2014

Christianity &Islam &Judaism Thomas on 31 Dec 2010 12:01 am

One fact to completely refute creationist claims

Creationists make up approximately half of the adults in the United States. In this video, Richard Dawkins is asked: “Do you think there could be one sentence that would convince a creationist to seriously doubt their theory?” For his answer he chooses the pattern of resemblances of genes:

While the pattern of resemblance in genes is valid answer, it is likely to go over the heads of creationists, most of whom have no real idea what a gene is or how it functions in a cell.

A more convincing answer is the utter stupidity of the “intelligent designer” if such a designer were to exist. Everyone can see this stupidity simply by reflecting on their own bodies, as described in this article:

Intelligent Design Made Mankind?

It is shocking that anyone could look at the myriad problems in the design of the human body alone, much less in the rest of “nature”, and then propose that there is an “intelligent designer”.

112 Responses to “One fact to completely refute creationist claims”

  1. on 31 Dec 2010 at 12:53 am 1.Tigerboy said …

    The notion that we are “perfect in our design” is absurd.

    Any of the common maladies of mankind will demonstrate how poorly adapted we are. How common is failing eyesight? What percentage of the populace suffers from back pain? How common is the need for hip replacements? Bad knees? Why do people develop cancer? Heart disease? Diabetes?

    The mere fact of the excruciating pain women experience during childbirth demonstrates that we are a species with a head that is too large to easily pass through the birth-canal, and a birth-canal that has narrowed, due to the species’ relatively new bipedalism.

    Perfection? Hardly.

  2. on 31 Dec 2010 at 6:55 am 2.clay said …

    child bearing is hard because of the woman’s sin in the garden

  3. on 31 Dec 2010 at 7:18 am 3.clay said …

    the problem with most creationists is that they don’t know the bible. for instance, the correct translation in genesis is one day and not the first day, BIG difference. in Job 36:26 it says “Behold God is great and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.” When God put years in that verse it meant the creation had already happened, for there was no time until the creation. god has revealed to me many things, he is awesome!

  4. on 31 Dec 2010 at 2:19 pm 4.Ian said …

    From #1

    “The notion that we are “perfect in our design” is absurd.”

    I was curious as to the source that makes such claims?

    I can’t recall any group religious or secular that makes a claim that the human being is perfect.

  5. on 31 Dec 2010 at 4:28 pm 5.Hell Yeah said …

    “child bearing is hard because of the woman’s sin in the garden”

    What? How funny it is that you believers put anything that is negetive to human sinning, which stemmed from a fairy tale about biting an apple in a garden. And anything positive, is god’s love. LOL.

  6. on 31 Dec 2010 at 7:37 pm 6.Ben said …

    If you are an atheist read this link:

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/watchmaker.htm

    The article is utterly ridiculous and funny in how it attempts to portray the human being as poorly designed. Yes, it is so poorly designed that most of its systems cannot be duplicated and a great deal is still not understood.

    There was also no apple in the garden unless you make the assumption.

    Atheism is indeed blind.

  7. on 01 Jan 2011 at 9:11 am 7.Severin said …

    2 Clay
    „child bearing is hard because of the woman’s sin in the garden“

    Man (Adam) did not „sin“?
    Your „perfect“ god punished women by painful child bearing, but did not punish men?

    A „sexist“ god? An imperfect (unrightous) god?
    Or, what are we talking about?
    Hm, hm,…

  8. on 01 Jan 2011 at 9:17 am 8.Severin said …

    4 Ian
    “I was curious as to the source that makes such claims?”

    Maybe you should ask Ben!

    #6 Ben
    “The article is utterly ridiculous and funny in how it attempts to portray the human being as poorly designed.”

    It seems that Ben DOES think human beings were prerfectly designed.
    If they were not, WHY?
    Was god an

    Isn’t somewhere in the Bible said that god created man “on his own image” (or something like that)?

  9. on 01 Jan 2011 at 9:18 am 9.Severin said …

    “…was god a diletant?” was my question.

  10. on 01 Jan 2011 at 9:43 am 10.Severin said …

    6 Ben
    “Yes, it is so poorly designed that most of its systems cannot be duplicated and a great deal is still not understood.“

    Did you say „MOST“?
    Did you say „GREAT DEAL“?

    Some time ago we were able to „duplicate“ NO systems of human body (except wooden legs), and understood NOTHING about how it functions.

    Now “NO” became “most“ and “NOTHING” became “a great deal“!
    You are negating yourself! Because we obviously made some progress in both understanding and duplicating!
    Today we understand a lot, and are able to heal many diseases, including „duplicating“ some parts of human body.

    Where will it end?

  11. on 01 Jan 2011 at 3:18 pm 11.Curmudgeon said …

    “The article is utterly ridiculous and funny in how it attempts to portray the human being as poorly designed”

    Atheist have to denigrate the design in nature. It is the only means of living in their denial of a great designer.

  12. on 01 Jan 2011 at 4:50 pm 12.Observer said …

    #2,#6,#11 Clay-Ben-Curmudgeon (Biff, Romantic, Hor, other trolls/xtians ) Happy New Year! Let the idiocy begin anew!!!!!

    Happy New Year to the sane out there too!

  13. on 02 Jan 2011 at 8:35 pm 13.Dutch said …

    #11
    “It is the only means of living in their denial of a great designer.”

    When your entire existence revolves around a premise of no God, you will not give it up easily. It is much like the “battered wife syndrome”. These woman would take their chances of being beaten rather than go it alone. Atheist would rather ignore all the ingenuity in creation rather than face God’s existence.

  14. on 02 Jan 2011 at 9:44 pm 14.Severin said …

    13 Dutch
    “Atheist would rather ignore all the ingenuity in creation rather than face God’s existence.”

    As I (and all other atheists!) said many times:
    We will stop ignoring the ingenuity of creation as soon as we get some evidences of his (its?) existance.

    Your problem seems to be: you are NOT ABLE TO PROVE existance of your creator.

    Atheists have no problems at all:
    We just do not believe anyhing without proofs.

  15. on 03 Jan 2011 at 12:15 am 15.Curmudgeon said …

    Dutech said
    “revolves around a premise of no God”

    That is easily understood . Atheist have no definition for Truth. They believe science is the study of Truth and while it does indeed point to truth often, science is not the study of Truth.

  16. on 03 Jan 2011 at 12:58 am 16.MrQ said …

    , science is not the study of Truth.

    Science studies reality.
    What is Truth, capital ‘T’ and all?

  17. on 03 Jan 2011 at 6:38 am 17.Severin said …

    15 Curmudgeon
    “Atheist have no definition for Truth.”

    You have it?!
    Why don’t you share the definition of Truth with us?
    Why don’t you share the source of that Truth with us?

    I tried with a Muslim, an orthodox Christian, and a catholic, who all claimed I do not know about the Truth, but were not able to tell anything but that god was the Truth, and god was in their hearts, and that the Truth was written in Kuran/Bible.

    I can not see what they have in their hearts (I can guess they have muscles and blood as everyone), I read Bible several times without discovering the Truth, and read Kuran and saw different “truth” there than written in the Bible, but in principle the same fairy tale BS.

    Maybe you have better definition and better sources.

    Enlighten us, we desire to know the truth.

  18. on 03 Jan 2011 at 1:58 pm 18.Deit said …

    Severin & Mr Q,

    Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?

  19. on 03 Jan 2011 at 2:15 pm 19.MrQ said …

    #18, Deit

    Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?

    Re-read post #16.

  20. on 03 Jan 2011 at 2:49 pm 20.Anti-Theist said …

    We atheists do not hold the truth you’re looking for; the informationaly enamored are locked doggedly in a procedural scientific search for knowledge, where said procedures allocate no pursuit of unsubstantiated supernatural deities. The intellectually satisfied masses that give weight to organized supernaturalist organizations fear being ignorant and its implicate implications / insinuations; an all encompassing “truth” is demanded by such insecurities, not science.

  21. on 03 Jan 2011 at 3:05 pm 21.v8 said …

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth

    truth
    –noun, plural truths ?
    1.
    the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
    2.
    conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
    3.
    a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
    4.
    the state or character of being true.
    5.
    actuality or actual existence.
    6.
    an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
    7.
    honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
    8.
    ( often initial capital letter ) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
    9.
    agreement with a standard or original.
    10.
    accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
    11.
    Archaic . fidelity or constancy.

    Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

    “The question of what is a proper basis for deciding how words, symbols, ideas and beliefs may properly be considered true, whether by a single person or an entire society, is dealt with by the five major substantive theories introduced below. Each theory presents perspectives that are widely shared by published scholars.[5][6] There also have more recently arisen “deflationary” or “minimalist” theories of truth based on the idea that the application of a term like true to a statement does not assert anything significant about it, for instance, anything about its nature, but that the label truth is a tool of discourse used to express agreement, to emphasize claims, or to form certain types of generalizations.”

  22. on 03 Jan 2011 at 4:28 pm 22.Deit said …

    Mr Q said “Science studies reality.”

    Mr Q, sorry but science is the acquisition of knowledge, not the study of reality. Knowledge does not equal reality. I think you confuse this with the branch of philosophy known as metaphysics.

    So I ask again. Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?

  23. on 03 Jan 2011 at 4:38 pm 23.Anti-Theist said …

    In smaller words…
    Yes.

  24. on 03 Jan 2011 at 4:53 pm 24.Deit said …

    Anti-Theist

    I gather you feel you answer for all atheist but I feel Mr Q and Severin (who I addressed originally) should be allowed to answer from their perspective.

    Thanks for understanding.

    But since you enter into the fray and admit to not knowing truth, How would you know you have seen the truth if it presented itself?

  25. on 03 Jan 2011 at 5:09 pm 25.Anti-Theist said …

    Through commonly evolved methods of perception / observation and reasoning granted through what would be and has always been independently / gathered research and unbiased study; the same methods that have competently failed to garner any credible evidence respecting the existence of any supernatural deities / miracles.

  26. on 03 Jan 2011 at 6:50 pm 26.Christian said …

    These two websites are lies and decivings of the devil,why do you bother the Bible is real,God is very real,and Jesus Christ saved us from our sins!!!
    This site is foolish to say such absurd things with lame evidence!!!!!
    Biblegateway.com is way better than this crud!God created us in his very image how could anyone say that being human is horrid and has defects?!?!?
    Sure,we have sin but that is merely the devils way and Jesus has died and risen again to save us from our sins so if we PRAY TO GOD we will be forgiven!!!!!
    And to prove the Bible and God are real here is something to think about:The Bible was written ,right? Who in the world wouyld write a book that long bout the events before?Well it wouldn`t be a crazy man for sure!And it wouldn`t be someone without religion, right?Well it had to be someone led by Spirit that is of course the spirit of God!!!!
    So to all fools who make sites like these REMEMBER THIS: I will always be there giving my opinion on youre horrendous sites

  27. on 03 Jan 2011 at 6:56 pm 27.Idontahavereligionyet said …

    What you say “Christian” is very true I believe I think you speak the truth.I will read the Bible every year now to seek God.I will visit Biblegateway.com and buy a Bible,read it,and seek God!!!

    -Thank you
    I can now change my username to IamaChristian or FollowerofGod and I will help you in giving thoughts on what these horrid sites say!

  28. on 03 Jan 2011 at 7:06 pm 28.Anti-Theist said …

    Never before have I had such reservations about theist intelligence; you have done a great deal of damage to your cause and the already vainly fought efforts of your peers.

  29. on 03 Jan 2011 at 7:56 pm 29.Deit said …

    Anti-Theist

    Nice try but all you did was describe science. With two exceptions. Unbiased does not exist exist and reasoning is opinion.

    I suppose you are sticking with you do not know what truth is and would not know it even if you did see it.

  30. on 03 Jan 2011 at 8:29 pm 30.Anti-Theist said …

    I tried nothing; if my answer so happened to resemble the definition of science, so be it. “Unbiased” exists in the open mind and eludes you due to your excessive need to be told what to think. I will accept that my reasoning and opinion are interchangeable; I being the leading rational educated authority of what I believe make my word final as does your word, in your life, believing in whatever adolescent musings your contend to accept as true. I know reality and will not condone / subscribe to your, or your bigoted tribes, definition / characterization of “truth”. The difference is that I can “see” my truth, my reality; your tales and truths are only found by accepting the teachings of hypocritical molesters and the study of raping, murdering, racist, homophobic, bronze age, contradicting, evil (evil) tombs.

  31. on 03 Jan 2011 at 9:09 pm 31.Deit said …

    Anti-Theist

    You are quite the paranoid individual. Step away from the ledge….slowly. A couple of questions should not send you over the edge so easily. You excessive blah blah and and indefensible myopic narcissistic ramblings cause me to fear for your well being. I will refrain from further questioning but do please seek assistance for a licensed psychologist.

    Mr Q and Severin

    feel free to address my earlier questions but only if you can do so rationally.

  32. on 03 Jan 2011 at 9:56 pm 32.Horatio said …

    Deit

    LOL, as one who has debated with AT here on this blog, he hasn’t a clue to what “unbiased” means. I mean his babbling just spews of ignorance, intolerance and cluelessness. The only truth he knows is what is fed to him off of blogs or Dawkins manuals of hate.

    Happy New Year AT!

  33. on 04 Jan 2011 at 12:19 am 33.Hell Yeah said …

    “Jesus Christ saved us from our sins!!!”

    I guess we can sin all we want now since Jesus saved us from our sins and it won’t matter how much we sin, because Jesus already saves us from them. LOL

    And yes, Science is the study of reality. What else would science be?

  34. on 04 Jan 2011 at 4:47 am 34.MrQ said …

    Hmmm…Let’s see. How about an evaluation of the difference between truth and Truth. I don’t know if that is what Deit seeks, but what the hell.

    Some truths: The earth is billions of years old; Evolution happens; There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on our planet….

    Some Truths: When we die we are judged by Elohim, Jesus, and Joseph Smith; When we die we are entitled to 70 virgins; When we die we fly with the Valkyries to Odin’s great hall; The Earth is only thousands of years old; Noah built and ark for the world wide flood and stashed it with all of the species of animals on Earth; Evolution is stupid because it’s dumb; The Earth is floating in a saucer of milk situated on the South Pole…..

    So, Deit. Do you see a difference between truth and Truth? Our good friend, Horatio, the extreme anti-science guy, has feet in both worlds. Perhaps he can explain how the Earth is billions of years old and how Adam/Eve fit into that world.

    The truth is a reasoned and logical examination of reality as we see and understand it.

    The Truth is what someone believes. I suppose it is also known as faith and is, or should be, immune from logic and reason.

  35. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:17 am 35.Severin said …

    22 Deit
    “So I ask again. Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?”

    I do admit it.
    Of course, as you obviously DO know what the truth is, I expect you to explain it to me.

    Or, do you?

  36. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:40 am 36.Severin said …

    26 Christian
    “…and Jesus Christ saved us from our sins!!!”

    Your Jesus did not save anyone.
    Did something change after he “sacrificed” himself to himself?
    People continued to “sin”, so his “scrificing” was for nothing.

    It is typical for your god to do terrible things without any results!

    First he drawned the whole human society (including children and animals!!!) because he obviously did something wrong when he created them. Not to mention that he, as an allmighty, could have make things better without so many killings.

    After he commited this massive crime, NOTHING changed! People continued sinning!
    An imbecile, incapable god, unable to do what he intended!?

    Then he scrificed his son to himself (practically himself to himself, if Jesus = god), and what happened?
    NOTHING!

    One would expect god’s deeds to have some rational consequences, but NOTHING happened after the big flood, and NOTHING happened after “sacrificin” of Jesus, and someone expects me to respect such an incapable imbecile!?

    If he ever existed, he should be hanged to his balls for all the unnecessary, senseless pains he gave to humans.

  37. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:56 am 37.Severin said …

    26 Christian

    Not to mention Jesus’ indifference to hundreds of millions of OTHER human beings who lived at the same time he lived.
    He did not care for hudreds of millions of people in China, Americas, Europe, Africa, Australia…

    He did not give them any chance to be “saved”!
    He did not even INFORM them there were chances for them to be “saved”!

    He LET those people to go to hell without ANY compassion, not to mention love!

    Please do not expect me to respect racists and misanthropes such as your Jesus obviously was.

    IF he ever existed, of course.

  38. on 04 Jan 2011 at 2:05 pm 38.Deit said …

    “The truth is a reasoned and logical examination of reality as we see and understand it.”

    Who is we? Why does this group of we (whoever you deem them to be) get to determine ultimate truth? So are you attempting to relegate a class of citizenry to this role?

    You start at the beginning with a couple of facts and then sprinkle in some theories. Do you know the difference?

    Fact: I am typing on a mac

    Theory: Macroevolution

    Fact: Micoevolution

    Theory: The Big Bang

  39. on 04 Jan 2011 at 4:02 pm 39.MrQ said …

    Deit,

    Theory: Macroevolution
    Fact: Micoevolution

    You’re a little confused.

    A scientific theory is something supported by numerous facts. If you have evidence that contradicts the Theory of Evolution, you are free to present it for critical review.

    Your Truth is probably Adam and Eve. But that would indicate a lack of critical thinking.

  40. on 04 Jan 2011 at 4:46 pm 40.Deit said …

    “If you have evidence that contradicts the Theory of Evolution, you are free to present it for critical review.”

    Which parts Mr Q? I assume here you refer to macroevolution? The facts or the theory Mr.Q? The facts are unquestioned. But how is the interpretation infallible? ID and Creationist advocates use the same facts.

    So you propose that theories represent truth? That would seem to be a problem since so many theories have over time to be found to be not truth.(thus the name)

    Why is the theory of evolution different? What makes it truth?

  41. on 04 Jan 2011 at 6:02 pm 41.MrQ said …

    The facts or the theory Mr.Q?

    See the link:
    http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html

    Theories in science are supported by facts….. Numerous facts. These are not ideas conjured up by the local witch doctor/priest.

    Facts help to find the truth. Since theories are comprised of facts, see the preceding sentence.

    The Truth is what someone thinks and believes has occurred. (A&E, Noah’s Ark, etc) No factual support required to sustain belief. Often this idea is an ABSOLUTE. But is it true?

  42. on 04 Jan 2011 at 6:58 pm 42.Deit said …

    Mr Q,

    It seems you are running in circles. You do not seem to have a grasp on what truth is either. I suggest you read up on Creationism and ID. They use the same facts as evolution. So, do you believe all three beliefs are therefore true?

    Facts are truth. The interpretation of the facts is opinion and not necessarily truth.

  43. on 04 Jan 2011 at 7:21 pm 43.MrQ said …

    do you believe all three beliefs are therefore true?

    What are the three belief systems you speak of? Muslim/Xtian/Jew?

    You do not seem to have a grasp on what truth is either.

    Change truth to Truth and your statement is bang on.

    Do you understand what a scientific theory is? It seems that the concept evades you. Anyhow, do you know of a Theory of Intelligent Design that has been peer reviewed? Love to see it!!

  44. on 04 Jan 2011 at 7:47 pm 44.Deit said …

    Oh, now something must be peer reviewed to be truth? Truth MUST reside in the field of science?

    Mr Q, you seem quite lost, unaware and lacking in understanding. You have no clue what is truth, fact, hypothesis or even theory.

  45. on 04 Jan 2011 at 7:54 pm 45.Rostam said …

    Deit,

    Give “No Clue” a break. You are talking way over his head here. Can’t you see he is trying to spin this into a religious debate. That is the only argument he has at his disposal. You need to play along.

  46. on 04 Jan 2011 at 7:55 pm 46.MrQ said …

    Mr Q, you seem quite lost, unaware and lacking in understanding. You have no clue what is truth, fact, hypothesis or even theory.

    That’s funny. I was thinking the same thing about you.

    When you start thinking critically, get back to me. Otherwise, stay lazy.

  47. on 04 Jan 2011 at 8:00 pm 47.Rostam said …

    I found this for No-Clue. It only took a short goofle search. Let us just say, he has no clue! Ha Ha

    Another Pro-ID Paper Passes Peer Review
    scordova

    It is therefore very natural that many scientists believe that life is rather a subsystem of some Mind greater than humans …

    At the encouragement of Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute and Dave Abel of the The Gene Emergence Project and The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Albert Voie submitted this work to a peer-reviewed journal.

    Albert Voie has a PhD in Biology and a background in Artificial Intelligence.

    (English is not his native language, and I would presume it is not the native language of the reviewers. I hope that will be taken into consideration.) Here is a link to the paper:

    Biological function and the genetic code are interdependent

    The Electronic Version of the Journal, Chaos, Solitons, and Fractals which includes this article is here:
    Volume 28, Issue 4, Pages 845-1112 (May 2006)

    The paper passed review, and was accepted August, 2005.

    To give a little background, Dave Abel was a reviewer of Hubert Yockey’s recent book on information theory and the origin of life. Abel’s recent peer-reviewed paper on the origin of life entitled Chance and Necessity Do Not Explain the Origin of Life mentions the problems posed by Turing machines (computers) which appear in all biological systems.

    Voie explores these ideas further and outlines important considerations. Computers of necessity must transcend the chemical and physical properties of the materials which make them. Voie illustrates why the origin of biological computers (or any other computer for that matter) can not be attributable to chemical and physical laws alone.

    Congratulations to Albert Voie, and may more such papers be published.

  48. on 04 Jan 2011 at 8:00 pm 48.MrQ said …

    Oh, now something must be peer reviewed to be truth? Truth MUST reside in the field of science?

    Is that a bad idea? Follow the facts, use the theories, and then maybe you’ll see the light ;-).

    Oh NO, the heavy mental hitter Rostam has appeared. And promply offers up zilch. Not surprised.

  49. on 04 Jan 2011 at 9:53 pm 49.Deit said …

    Mr Q,

    Careful what you ask for. That is not the only ID paper peer-reviewed but that is not the point. But since that seems to be a big deal for you, are you a supporter of ID?

    You already admitted you do not seem to have a grasp on what truth is and the concept seems foreign to you. I think that must be a real stickler.

  50. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:03 pm 50.MrQ said …

    Deit,
    ID is for IDiots. Just another feeble attempt of the Christians attempting to dumb down the education system.

    That is not the only ID paper peer-reviewed but that is not the point.

    Shiver me timbers!!! You mean there’s more. Do tell. Links…. please.

    Back on topic…Science studies reality. If your god exists, relax, it will be found. If the god is not supported by the evidence, learn to accept. Looks like we have bupkis thus far; no theory, no facts for god. That’s the truth! Your Truth may vary.

  51. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:32 pm 51.Deit said …

    Mr Q,

    OK, whatever you say Mr. Q.

    Good day to you.

  52. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:46 pm 52.MrQ said …

    Deit,

    I find it very encouraging that you and some of the other regular Christian visitors (Horatio, X-the gas bag, Rostam, and the rest of the extended family) are always lounging around here. It is a step, perhaps the first one, in your awakening. Keep seeking truth. Question your faith; you all know it does not make any sense. Follow Flew to his conclusions…There is no caring loving god, no afterlife. Sad, I know, but true.

  53. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:50 pm 53.Severin said …

    Deit, you are not fair!

    You asked us to admit that we do not know what the truth (Truth?) is.

    I admited (I think AT, #23, did too), and I kindly asked you to give us answers to the very question posed by YOU.
    Is it possible that you only brake winds here, trying to trick us with your pretentiousness, and illusory knowledge, having, in fact, also no clue about truth/Truth?
    Prove me wrong!
    Do not use cheap tricks to get out from a problem you initiated.

    WHAT is the truth, Deit?
    YOU started this part of debate, very directly, naming me to give you my answer.
    I humbly admited I had no clue what the truth/Truth was, now it is your turn!

    That is the way a normal debate runs, NOT by avoiding questions when they become too sensitive for you.
    So, what IS the truth?

  54. on 04 Jan 2011 at 10:58 pm 54.Severin said …

    Deit,
    “Severin & Mr Q,
    Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?”

    It was only to remind you to what you said.

    We admited we had no answers.

    Waiting for yours!

    P.S.
    Saying: “I do not know” is not avoiding!

    Say it, OR give the right answer: WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

  55. on 04 Jan 2011 at 11:04 pm 55.MrQ said …

    Sev,

    Do you actually think you’ll get an answer from Deit? He has cut his loses and run for the hills. Isn’t it always the way it goes with folks who literally buy into fables of magic talking snakes and world-wide floods.

    Good luck, Sev.

  56. on 05 Jan 2011 at 1:21 am 56.Horatio said …

    Deit,

    Absolutely beautiful manipulation. You completely unhinged Q-less and AT and I didn’t see 1 single religious reference.

    Rosta,

    Outstanding delivery on the peer reviewed ID paper. Completely blew away Q-less.

    lol, I just enjoyed reading the exchange. Here is some truth for Q-less and AT. You guys have no answers to the big questions. You religion is letting you down.

  57. on 05 Jan 2011 at 1:36 am 57.MrQ said …

    Horatio, Post #56

    No useful content
    Full of Ad Hominim attacks
    No contributions to thread
    Full of fallacies
    No class

  58. on 05 Jan 2011 at 7:05 am 58.Severin said …

    55 MrQ
    We are lucky odors are untransferable by electronics!
    They arrogantly brake winds over us from their “heighs”, trying to pretentiously patronize us.
    But, we know that such an arrogance is typical for demagogues.

    Those people, as you can see, authorized themselves to patronize others: they think that only THEY may pose questions and insist on answers, and who, the hell, are we, to pose questions to THEM?

    Their “strategy” is to manipulate and to “unhinge” people, as H. admited in his moment of sincerity, paying no attention to arguments and logic.
    The very method THEY were exposed to, at times they were brainwashed.
    I am sorry for those people, they are incurable, BUT
    other people read this blog too, and I will remind others, from time to time, about a way of their “debating”.

    Your #55 is perfect.
    I also think that their negating of logic is based on psyhology, not on natural stupidity. Maybe I am wrong about their “incurability”?!

  59. on 05 Jan 2011 at 8:55 pm 59.Xenon said …

    I don’t think the atheist worldview is concerned with truth. Don’t they just say others are delusional and then they do not know? If they don’t know how can they claim another is delusional? It is such a illogical stance.

    I caught an interview with some atheist last night and he claimed he had the truth. There is no God and the religious are being duped. Of course he refused to back up one single assertion. If this is true, shouldn’t those who believe “what you see is all there is” be able to back such a bold accusation? Seemingly not and to use there own logic, bring the proof.

  60. on 06 Jan 2011 at 6:14 am 60.Jacob James said …

    As for the family tree… i listened in science class, and am very interested in the human body, as well as genes, and cells. Why would he make it easy? we wouldnt need faith if the answer was imediatly spread out before us, saying here it is!
    He placed dead ends and false trails to test faith… for what else do we have? You cant prove that there is a God using science…and you cant prove that there is not a God. Becausehe is above our terms, we cannot begin to fathom how he works or why he does things….
    Richard dawkins???… Go back to school, or why dont you actually listen and try and understand the christian side of the story. If you want to look at cells, try googling laminin!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4zgJXPpI4

  61. on 06 Jan 2011 at 8:42 am 61.Severin said …

    60 Jacob James
    “Why would he make it easy? we wouldnt need faith if the answer was imediatly spread out before us, saying here it is!”

    Why would he NOT make it easy?
    To answer something, we don’t need faith, we need knowledge.
    You probably forget that most of wonderful scientists neglected their faith to come to their achievments that moved the human society forward.
    Giordano Bruno died for his going against his faith, Galileo almost died…

    “Go back to school, or why dont you actually listen and try and understand the christian side of the story.”

    WHY Christian? Why NOT Muslim?
    And if you explain why Christian, then tell us WHICH Christian!

  62. on 06 Jan 2011 at 8:46 am 62.Severin said …

    59 Xenon
    ““I don’t think the atheist worldview is concerned with truth.“

    Why don’t you finally tell us what the bloody truth is?

  63. on 06 Jan 2011 at 12:42 pm 63.Horatio said …

    “If this is true, shouldn’t those who believe “what you see is all there is” be able to back such a bold accusation?”

    No, you wouldn’t One thing to keep in mind. Atheist are typically very liberal. What is the liberal mantra? Say something enough times and eventually people will believe. Listen to anything Nancy Pelosi says and you will find a majority of it is lies. However, nobody ever calls her on the lies. The same goes with the atheist apologist.

  64. on 06 Jan 2011 at 4:12 pm 64.Anti-Theist said …

    Why is the term “Liberal “ thrown around like foul language? Liberal causes are quite noble and boast voting rights for minority groups, abortion rights for women, gay rights, and government entitlements such as education and health care.

  65. on 06 Jan 2011 at 4:35 pm 65.Xenon said …

    Funny how Looney libs see entitlements as a plus! I feel certain looney libs and sane conservatives see education as important. However…

    Liberals are about spending money we don’t have, wide open borders, giving away other peoples’ money (but not their own), blaming others, no responsibility and anally politically correct keeping people dependent on government.

    A recent study has found about 20% of the American public is mentally challenged in some respect. It just so happens 20% of America are looney libs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BomWbtXWbA8

  66. on 06 Jan 2011 at 6:49 pm 66.Anti-Theist said …

    Post #65 is rather condemnatory (and shows clearly a lack of study applied to the philosophy)coming from a disciple of Christ; had it been communicated in a less abrasive manner, many (not including myself who remains unaffected by loose slander)who were offended could have been spared ill feelings concerning its author.

  67. on 06 Jan 2011 at 7:54 pm 67.Horatio said …

    At,

    I dunno AT. If you go out making claims others are offended when you are not, that seems a bit arrogant. Wouldn’t others need to make that call for themselves? Isn’t it also quite hypocritical considering you past comments?

    You don’t know much about being a disciple do you? Christ offended the self-righteous and the criminal element often. Calling a spade a spade is what Christ was all about. Liberals and Unions are synonymous in my vocabulary.

  68. on 06 Jan 2011 at 8:11 pm 68.Anti-Theist said …

    It’s your prerogative to attack unprovoked; some liken your actions to something more noble than others I’m sure. I am a disciple by definition; liberal facets of my character allow me a sense contradictory to the “one man as an island” mentality often encouraged by conservative teachings.

  69. on 06 Jan 2011 at 8:45 pm 69.Anti-Theist said …

    The statement concerning Liberals and unions being related / grouped for purposes of ridicule seems rather disconnected from the average person who enjoys being part of a community working and protecting said communities interests. Said goals in the united states are virtually never interests involving Christianity for society rightfully puts itself first / above Christ even if, when they say differently.

  70. on 06 Jan 2011 at 9:44 pm 70.Xenon said …

    Unions go without saying Horatio. They lie, cheat, steal and are an outdated concept that makes it difficult for us to compete in the world market. Notice who our liberal president always looks out for first when bailing out companies.

    The November elections are a great indicator of where America is when it comes to the liberal/conservative issue. Nothing like class warfare and dependency to keep liberals in office. Not this time.

  71. on 07 Jan 2011 at 3:49 am 71.MrQ said …

    Sev, post#54

    We admited we had no answers.
    Waiting for yours! …..Say it, OR give the right answer: WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

    So, Sev, it seems like the extended family is not capable of or willing to answer your simple question. Deit, Hor, X, Ros….waiting…..

  72. on 07 Jan 2011 at 6:48 am 72.Severin said …

    65 Xenon
    “Liberals are about spending money we don’t have, wide open borders, giving away other peoples’ money (but not their own), blaming others, no responsibility and anally politically correct keeping people dependent on government.”

    Very much description of Jesus, isn’t it?

  73. on 07 Jan 2011 at 7:03 am 73.Severin said …

    Deit,

    We are still inpatiently waiting to explain us what the truth is!
    Or, are you “big” only in provoking people, and become an ignorant when you have to say something concrete?
    A demagogue?!

    I remind you to #18 and #22:
    Deit:
    “So I ask again. Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?”

    That question of yours imply that you are an expert in “truths”.
    I admited I was not, and here I ask again: what IS the truth, Deit?

    No answer?
    I expected that!

  74. on 07 Jan 2011 at 9:12 pm 74.Curmudgeon said …

    Well I didn’t mean to start such a long drawn out argument. Deit did a nice job of pulling out of Mr Q and anti-theist what was already known. The truth for an atheist is live, die and rot. Is it universal truth? Probably not. There probably is a a God since every civilization has believed in some sort of higher power and after-life. I don’t believe in coincidences of this size.

    And then there is the obvious design element in creation. Another coincidence I don’t by into.

    Xenon is on the money on the new liberals. JFK would be a conservative today.

  75. on 08 Jan 2011 at 4:01 am 75.MrQ said …

    Cur,

    Your turn. What is Truth/truth? Let me know. Is it a whack load of virgins for me? Will Joseph Smith, Elohim, and Jesus judge me? Tell me…I just gotta know.

  76. on 08 Jan 2011 at 4:22 am 76.Curmudgeon said …

    Mr Q,

    Live, die and rot is your truth. Grasp it, hold it and live it. Sounds divine, yes?

    When you are ready to discover some Truth, you look into it. Don’t be lazy or just stick with live-die-rot. I have a sneaky suspicion you are not a guy anyone can tell anything unless it fits your preconceptions.

  77. on 08 Jan 2011 at 5:19 am 77.MrQ said …

    Cur, post#76

    Just as I thought; You don’t know either.
    But what we do know is that the body often rots after death. Reality sucks, don’t it?

  78. on 08 Jan 2011 at 5:25 am 78.michelle said …

    Severin #72

    would you really call yourself an atheist or are you just unsettled by the negative impressions that you have of Jesus? You somehow are yearning to know the truth about Him and no one else can reveal that to you but Jesus Himself. I myself had unanswered questions about Him and He revealed them to me. I am not here to be ridiculed so spare me . I am speaking from my own experiences. The only way to experience the real effects of a fire is to actually put your hand in it.

    You do have genuine questions and they do make sense and anyone with any sense of reasoning would question certain things about Him like I did.

  79. on 08 Jan 2011 at 1:15 pm 79.Curmudgeon said …

    “Reality sucks, don’t it?:

    Not at all Mr Q. I admit if I were of the atheist mindset I would agree. If you decide to seek out the Truth you will be greatly relieved or horrified depending on how you apply it.

    Individuals who are mature do not seek Truth on blogs. It is done through individuals we know and trust but primarily through independent investigation. I know you would like to start some big argument where you demean and poke fun, but it will be one way.

  80. on 08 Jan 2011 at 2:33 pm 80.Severin said …

    78 Michelle
    It is never my intention to ridicule anyone. Exceptions are people who arrogantly pose questions they can not answer themselves; such people I can not call other names but demagogues, especially if I kindly answer their questions, either by using some arguments, or by honestly saying: I do not know!
    I personally feel myself a real atheist, but because I am not able to give any formal logical proof that there is no god (as you probably can’t give fomal proofs that there is no Amon Ra or Zeus, Odin…), you may call me a very (very!) suspitious agnostic.
    If there was some “higher force” which “caused” universe to get in existance (which I take as illogical, and do not believe it, just can not prove the oposite), then no god from any religion on earth had nothing to do with it, including Jesus. Universe is far too big for one small Jesus and for ANY god invented by humans (which typically “created” universe from eggs, fog, “chaos”, “created” people from ‘dust”…)
    I never negated existance of Jesus as a MAN, although there are too few real sources to confirm his existance.
    What I can not, and do not accept, is his divinity, as I do not accept ANY divinity.
    So, if some Jesus ever existed, it might be an interesting historical issue, but has nothing to do with faith. If he ever existed, PEOPLE misused him by making him a “god” for THEIR oportunistic golas.
    Of coarse I never felt/heard any “voice” of any god (including Jesus), even not in dreams, but as a rational human being, I am always ready to change my opinion if some god adresses to me directly (and porves himself/herself/itself a god).
    I can not trust people claiming bullshits without any logic, in books written in bronze age.
    If Christianity is one and real religion, why then we have so many muslims, who ALSO claim their religion is the one and only true?
    And why so many other “strong” and “long lasting” religions just dissapeared?

  81. on 08 Jan 2011 at 3:00 pm 81.Severin said …

    74 Curmudgeon
    “There probably is a a God …”

    WHAT? “PROBABLY”?

    Welcome in club of doubting!
    And: YES! Live, die and rotten IS my truth!
    THAT is why I personally live the ONLY life i have the best way I can.
    And, as we dicussed many times before, it does NOT include drugs, booze, killing, robbing, raping …it includes RESPONSIBILITY in the first place: for myself, my family, my fellow human beings, the planet I live on…
    I live a decent and joyful life, KNOWING that I will rotten when I die, and only chemicals will remain from my body (hoping they will be of some use for the planet).

    WHAT is wrong with that?

    I do not have an “immortal soul!”
    Living such a life, I have no FEARS of anything what might come after I die; NOTHING will come, but “nothingness”.
    I was in “nothingness” for hell knows how long before I was born, and I do not feel anything bad in that.
    Knowing it, I will die with smile on my lips (probably within next 10 – 12 years, as I am 68 now, but if it comes earlier, I will smile either).

  82. on 08 Jan 2011 at 3:17 pm 82.Severin said …

    74 Curmudgeon
    “Individuals who are mature do not seek Truth on blogs.”

    Can yoy, please, explain us the difference between “truth” and “Truth”?
    I have some other sources but Wikipedia and blogs, but could not find what “Truth” means.
    Can you also inform us HWERE to look for truth/Truth?

  83. on 08 Jan 2011 at 4:32 pm 83.MrQ said …

    Sev, Definition from #21 above:

    ( often initial capital letter ) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience

    This is likely the definition which a believer works from. Some of the other definitions such as: “conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.” apply to people with skeptical outlooks.

    Cur

    I have a sneaky suspicion you are not a guy anyone can tell anything unless it fits your preconceptions.

    Why would you say that? I am a reasonable yet skeptical individual. Why would I personally take to heart your Truth versus my Muslim neighbours version of Truth? Or the Truth(s) held by some other “believers”?
    What are these “preconceptions” you accuse me of holding?

    Individuals who are mature do not seek Truth on blogs. It is done through individuals we know and trust but primarily through independent investigation.

    One should always question their beliefs, analyze the data, ask questions, and seek answers. That is what I try to do – Why is that bad? Being skeptical keeps me from buying prayer matts, from Nigerian money scams, from believing in ghosts and aliens, etc, etc.

  84. on 08 Jan 2011 at 8:00 pm 84.Curmudgeon said …

    “‘One should always question their beliefs, analyze the data, ask questions, and seek answers. That is what I try to do – Why is that bad?”

    Who claimed it was bad? Do you really do it or do you just mouth the words? I have watched exhanges on this blog. It certainly is not evident.

    DO you seek with an open mind or do you seek to prove what you already believe? Therein lies the difference. In the new ago of the www I have noticed much less true seeking and more googling to support existing beliefs. Its too bad.

  85. on 08 Jan 2011 at 8:30 pm 85.MrQ said …

    Cur,#84

    Do you really do it or do you just mouth the words? I have watched exhanges on this blog. It certainly is not evident.

    I’d like to think that everything I know and understand is open to modification as I learn. That’s what looking for truth requires.

    If one already “knows” the Truth, then they have narrowed themselves to the constraints of whatever belief system they aspire to. For instance, many of your fellow Christians will differ from you in their understanding of Truth. Certainly other religions have their own unique Truths. The problem is that no amount of faith will ever make something real.

  86. on 09 Jan 2011 at 2:05 am 86.michelle said …

    Severin,

    Do you think history is valuable regardless of how old it might be? We rely on history to pass on to us what we were not able to witness for ourselves and trust that it is accurately recorded.God also warned that if anyone adds or takes away from the contents of His word(Rev.22:18-19)they will be dealt with.

    Yes, there are other religions and supposedly they have other Gods.I was never introduced to any other God but Jesus. I also have never heard a muslim or any other religious group giving credible witness about their God. It is ridiculous for anyone to proclaim that something is real unless they have experienced some form of proof.
    Do you consider experience and witness as proof?
    If someone tells me that the fire burns, I wouldn’t be able to understand it or relate to it until I have actually put my hand in it for myself.

    There are also people who call themselves christians who the Lord says on his return He will say to them ” depart from me, I know you not”. He also said to beware of false prophets because many shall come in His name.

    There are ways of finding out the truth, that is if one really wants to know the truth, and if God is real then His word must also be real and that would mean that there also is a heaven and a hell and also a devil.

    I will add one true story. A child was in an accident, went in a coma and died.The mother who never knew god, cried out in anger, blaming God and said “God,I hate you”. Suddenly a voice responded and said to her ” That was the first time you spoke to me and I love you”. The mother was so astounded, as a result she got saved.

  87. on 09 Jan 2011 at 8:31 am 87.Severin said …

    86 Michelle
    “If someone tells me that the fire burns, I wouldn’t be able to understand it or relate to it until I have actually put my hand in it for myself.”

    Sorry, I would use a thermometer to measure the temperature BEFORE I put my hand in the fire, if I would not know anything about fire.

    My brain is a sort of “thermometer” for recognizing (distinguishing) things.
    My education is an additional tool helping me to distinguish things, although it is not quite necessary in case of gods.
    Experiance is too broad a concept to take it as evidence in most cases. How many people “experianced” aliens?
    Same with witnesses. I personally know a man who “witnessed” appearance of Mary. Should I take his “testimony” as relevant?
    Even in Court witnessing is often dubious.

    “The mother was so astounded, as a result she got saved.”
    Did her child survive?

  88. on 09 Jan 2011 at 9:04 am 88.michelle said …

    Severin,

    As far as aliens, I will have to accept the word of someone credibly trustworthy or reject it until I have tangible proof-that is, seeing one for myself, that is if they manifest physically.

    The thermometer only reflects through measurement and is just as good as someone saying God exists but not until until you encounter him for yourself that you actually know who He is and that He is real.

    I can assure you that when you finally decide to seek Him, You will find Him and there will be nothing dubious about it. You will have an indelible experience that can never be compared to anything in your lifetime.

  89. on 09 Jan 2011 at 2:28 pm 89.Anti-Theist said …

    When your mind and “Truths ”are publicized before people who reject your beliefs, you (personally as there are others moderate enough to ovoid the disconnection you amplify so efficiently)only drive them deeper into the adjacent end of the ideological spectrum; evangelicals prove to be, time and time again, the primary force driving / expanding Atheism. I will use this opportunity now to thank you for your work in the emboldening, encouraging, vitalizing; bolstering, and heartening of Atheism. You are to atheism what Christianity is to education; a true to life “don’t end up like me ” poster child wrapped in a extravagant ribbon. Trust please that the most damaging assault you could inflict upon Atheism would be to stop frequenting this, and other, rationalist forums. This post is not prescribed to michelle exclusively, but is instead intended to be a blanket “thanks ” to all our resident theists; keep the fight alive people, Atheism wouldn’t exist in its hulking capacity without you.

  90. on 09 Jan 2011 at 3:26 pm 90.Dutch said …

    Evidence for God is so obvious one must close their eyes to ignore it. (Romans 1, Ps 19)

    What would constitute evidence of God for an atheist? Miracles? No God created the heavens and earth and they still deny it?

    Raising the dead? No, I have personally witnessed such an event in India and here in the US. Many cases are also documented throughout the ages atheist still do not believe.

    Coming to earth? No Jesus did that and the scoffers still remained.

    See the atheist presents an impossible scenario. No evidence would persuade an atheist. They do not want to believe and nothing will persuade them. They would simply claim it was natural, a mistake or we don’t know yet. This is why the Bible never takes on the atheist other than to call them a fool.

  91. on 09 Jan 2011 at 3:56 pm 91.MrQ said …

    What would constitute evidence of God for an atheist?

    How about regenerating an arm for an amputee? Now that would indeed be a miracle!! Certain animals are already capable of such feats.
    http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22955/

    How about a race? Let’s see who develops the technology faster…Humans or god(s). With the latest developments in stem cell research, my money is on us.

  92. on 09 Jan 2011 at 5:34 pm 92.Severin said …

    90 Dutch
    “Raising the dead? No, I have personally witnessed such an event in India and here in the US.”

    If it was not some performance to get some money from you and other public, it is called “surviving”, not “rising the dead”: The “dead” person was not really dead (he/she probably shared your money with the „miracle maker“).
    On the other hand, IF it was rising the dead, and it is so common, what was so special in Jesus’ rising from dead? Some guy here (I think it was dxt) claimed that Jesus’ raising from death was what made him god. Why do we need gods, if people in India and the USA come back to life, after they die, every now and then.

    “No God created the heavens and earth and they still deny it”
    We don’t DENY anything. We just DO NOT BELIEVE it. We incline to more logic theories about universe, supported by some logic, but DO NOT trust them blindly. We wait to see more evidences.
    To make us believe YOUR theory, you have to prove it.
    For the beginning, try to explain why should we trust you and your religious books, and not Kuran, stone writings in Egypt (saying that Ra was the creator), stone writings in S. America (saying some feather snake was a creator), Oceanian legends, China religious books,…., as we do not see substantial differences among them. beside the unconsistencies (bullshits) all those books contain, that bloody multitude of different gods confuses us a lot.

    If you proclaim those writings are bullshits, tell us why the Bible is not.
    Because you say so?
    THAT will not do!

  93. on 09 Jan 2011 at 6:02 pm 93.Severin said …

    88 Michelle
    As afr as aliens, I would hardly accept anyone’s word.
    Unlike god, whose existance fights logic and science, I do believe there are aliens in the universe.
    However, DISTANCES in the universe are so enormeously big, that there are practically no chances that they visited us ever.
    Light (running 300,000 km/sec!) needs 4 years to come from our closest star to us, and there is too small a probablity that there is intelligent life 1000 light years from earth.
    So, I would be VERY suspicious to any “witnessing” about aliens.

    On the other hand, thermometer gives us FACTS. If someone tells me water is not hot, he might have different feeling of what is hot. Thermomether will NOT lie, ever.
    If I know that proteins coagulate at certain temperature (not to mention pain), and I see it on the thermometer, I will NOT trust anyone, and will NOT put my hands in such a water, no matter who says what.
    Those are some modest examples of using brain, knowledge and tools to conclude something, to direct your actions according to your conclusions.

  94. on 09 Jan 2011 at 8:27 pm 94.Severin said …

    Deit,

    Where are you?
    You owe us some answers.

    Shall we conclude you are an arrogant ignorant, a “lion” when posing questions, and a chicken when kindly asked to answer them?

    Yes, we shall.

  95. on 09 Jan 2011 at 8:51 pm 95.michelle said …

    Severin
    I am just trying to convey to you that you will need more than brain, knowledge or tools to come to the realization of Christ’s existence. No one can really explain it to you. They can always share their experience but you have to have your own.It will take faith and trust for one to seek Him, and once they are able to do that and accept Christ, the holy spirit then dwells within them.

    The Lord will then give you revelations of things that you could in no other way understand, that a college degree could not prepare you for, or all the money in the world could not give you access to, or the intelligent mind could not fathom.

    He is real, and when you discover him He will reveal to you those things that have raised so many questions in you mind,so-called discrepancies in his word. He will make you to understand and give you peace. I know you will find Him because you have a genuineness to find, to seek, to know and to understand the truth for what it really is.

    I love you and I care about you. God bless you.

  96. on 09 Jan 2011 at 9:15 pm 96.Anti-Theist said …

    Despite blind sincerity, good intention does not condone constant harassment; this display resembles a toddler suffocating an infant while trying to feed it. Thankfully Severin is far from helpless and won’t tolerate having your faith shoved down his throat. Sad though to think of impressionable children you surly would / have indoctrinated; never will they think for themselves as mommy is quite willing to think for them.

  97. on 09 Jan 2011 at 9:55 pm 97.Horatio said …

    Sev,

    Get a life and stop pining for Deit. You haven’t answered a question with any logic since your inception.

    At,

    Please don’t pollute the minds of any children.

    Michelle,

    Well stated. You are on the right track.

  98. on 09 Jan 2011 at 10:00 pm 98.Dutch said …

    “How about regenerating an arm for an amputee?”

    Why would that change your mind? How about the liver? Some animals God evolved with that ability.

    No, you would call it evolution. So again, no evidence is possible therefore your mind is closed.

  99. on 09 Jan 2011 at 11:21 pm 99.MrQ said …

    Why would that change your mind? ….No, you would call it evolution. So again, no evidence is possible therefore your mind is closed.

    OK, how about the big fellow showing up and just saying “Believe in me or else you’ll fry in hell”.
    BTW, what do you have against the Theory of Evolution? Look up biologos.org for a Christian perspective on that issue.

    What would it take for you to remove any doubt and abandon god? Or change from a Jesus follower to a Muslim/Buddhist/Sikh/etc? What if god showed up and smacked you upside the head with one of his manifold arms and said “Jesus is not the way”; would you change your mind?

  100. on 10 Jan 2011 at 12:07 am 100.Dutch said …

    “OK, how about the big fellow showing up and just saying “Believe in me or else you’ll fry in hell”.”

    No you know you would just call that a delusion or a residual LSD trip. Your mind is closed and therefore you really are not open to proof. I have had this exercise with close-minded atheist. Joyfully, I have see some atheist come to know God. Some are really open to proof. They got to the point where they were tired of running from God and having no answers when tragedy strikes.

    “What would it take for you to remove any doubt and abandon god?”

    Its not possible. See I have experienced God in my life (Romans 12:2) and since I have had the joy of transformation, causing me to disbelieve is not possible.

  101. on 10 Jan 2011 at 12:27 am 101.MrQ said …

    Dutch
    From #100

    causing me to disbelieve is not possible.

    From #98

    therefore your mind is closed.

    And who exactly has the closed mind?

    Maybe your “experience” with the big fellow was, as you say:

    a delusion or a residual LSD trip.

  102. on 10 Jan 2011 at 2:51 am 102.MrQ said …

    Dutch

    you really are not open to proof.

    I am a reasonable guy with an open mind. What is the proof you speak of?

    Some are really open to proof

    Count me in. I love proofs and facts.

    having no answers when tragedy strikes.

    My philosophy about this in two words: Shit happens.

    I have no doubt that whatever “transformative” experience that you have had it has convinced you of the existence of god. That’s good for you if it makes you feel good and keeps you on the straight and narrow. Realize that not everyone needs to go through a “transformative” experience to thoroughly enjoy all life has to offer. Some people happily lead moderate lives. Others require groups like AA to help them achieve happiness. Be happy, Dutch.

  103. on 10 Jan 2011 at 3:10 am 103.Dutch said …

    Mr Q

    Exactly how would you go about proving a negative to me? I could understand if you had something great to share that made a real difference. In your philosophy, how will my life or eternity change? If I am wrong how will that impact my eternity? No God and No Hope doesn’t seem to be a draw. Count me in if you can pull it off.

    I have no need to prove God to you. I have already proven you are closed and I would never waste my time on a blog going through such a activity. I take it seriously. That’s up to you. I only help those who genuinely seek God. Those who do not will never find him. God resists the proud but reveals himself to the humble.

    Your philosophy is pretty grim. Mine is God is good.

  104. on 10 Jan 2011 at 6:54 am 104.Severin said …

    95 Michelle
    “He is real, and when you discover him…”

    I don’t need gods, even in case they are real (which I don’t believe without evidences).
    If some of them exists and needs me for some reason, I am available to be “discovered”.

    If he ever discovers me (it MUST be personal contact, I do not trust priests), and informs me he was the one from the Bible who ordered massacres of children and pregnant women, killed the whole population of earth for NOTHING, then killed his own son, also for nothing, I will reject him, probably also spit on him.
    I am ready to spend eternity in hell if necessary rather than live according to moral rules of such a monster.
    If I accept HIS moral rules, I would suffer in paradise much more from my conscience, then from any torturing Mr. God could invent for me in his hell for not accepting him.

    And, again: a god of “love” who punishes people with eternal torturing ONLY because he missed to inform them about his existance in a proper way?
    Revenge is NOT i my nature, why would I accept his “morality of revenge”, the only “morality” he knows, and live (and die) with it?

  105. on 10 Jan 2011 at 7:08 am 105.Severin said …

    97 Horatio
    “Get a life and stop pining for Deit.”

    I am pining for answers, not for Deit.
    HE asked us (me and AT):
    Deit #18 and #22:
    “So I ask again. Do you guys mean to really admit you have no answer for what truth is?”

    We admited we had no answer, and kindly asked HIM to give us answers we missed.

    Then, as typical for theists, he run away in some mouse hole, peeping out and waiting a moment to come back on scene with some bombastic questions he is not able to answer himself.

  106. on 10 Jan 2011 at 7:16 am 106.Severin said …

    98 Dutch
    “How about the liver? Some animals God evolved with that ability.”

    Did animals pray for it?
    Does a lizard pray god for a new tail?

    Strane god! He gives animals new livers and tails without praying and disobey prayers of his own “children”.

  107. on 10 Jan 2011 at 7:43 am 107.Severin said …

    100 Dutch
    “Your mind is closed and therefore you really are not open to proof.“
    „Some are really open to proof.“

    I swear I am open to proofs, but you never provided any.
    When I was 5 or 6 I could hardly understand the earth was not flat. Such a claim was in collision with my experiance.
    Then people persuaded me that was the fact with some evidences I was able to understand and to accept, without any math, shemistry, physics…
    I accepted those evidences (ship on the horizon) and ACCEPTED some new knowledge AGAINST the efforts of my brain to refuse something that was not so obvious.
    Later, I accepted Newton,…because he GAVE clear evidences for his theories, evidences that ANYONE was able to understand and to CHECK, including me.
    Sttill later, I accepted Einstein and Darwin, for the same reasons: people gave clear evidences that everyone could check easily. Moreover, their theories WORK in practice whch everyone, without much education, can see.

    You prove your god real, and I will immediatelly start to believe in him.

    I never said i will ACCEPT him, but that is another story.

    Please have in mind that existance of universe ONLY proves that universe exists, nothing more and nothing less. It does not include „automatically“ a creator, at least I don’t see the connection.

    Some other proofs?

  108. on 10 Jan 2011 at 7:58 am 108.Severin said …

    103 Dutch
    “Exactly how would you go about proving a negative to me?“

    No one is trying to prove there is no god.
    As described in the BIble/Kuran (etc), God does not fit anything we know and experiance, but I would never go to formal disproving of his existance, because it is logically impossible.
    Do you believe in mermaids? Can YOU support your disbelieve in mermaids with some formal logic and PROVE me they do not exist?

    One who claims something POSITIVE (i.e.: god exists, mermaids exist, it is possible to brake an atom and get electricity, earth is a globe…) has to prove his claims to make people trust him/her.
    So, we do not claim there is no god, we just DO NOT BELIEVE IT.
    All we can cautiously say is: gods, as described in any religion, do not fit anything, therefore the probability they exist is minor (I would say: none, but only for myself).

  109. on 10 Jan 2011 at 8:22 am 109.Severin said …

    Dutch
    „In your philosophy, how will my life or eternity change? If I am wrong how will that impact my eternity? No God and No Hope doesn’t seem to be a draw.“

    What hope? It seems that your biggest problem is fear of dying and going to „nothingness“.
    Some people solved that problem WITHOUT assistance of bestial Chriistian/Muslim/Egyptian/Aztec… gods, by just believing in reincarnation.

    I solved that problem long ago, by accepting the fact that I will die one day, and never live again. My „I“ will dissapear, will never exist again.
    I am AWARE of that, and, consequently, I have NO FEARS AT ALL. My HOPES are turned to LIFE, BUT I hardly work to realize them, I do not just WAIT them to be realized by someone, including gods.
    My only concern is to live this only life I have a decent, responsible and joyful way, and I am doing it.
    I enjoy my life! No drugs, no booze, no raping (YES consent sex in any available „quantity“!), no robbing, no killing…a LOT of working, learning, traveling, enjoying in my family, other people (not all), enjoying the universe surrounding me, from a single flower, to galaxies…fulfilling my CURIOSITY, my thirst for knowledge…

    Then I will die.
    If there is some „paradise“, it must be a boring place compared to what I experiance in my life. WHAT, the hell, should I expect more then LIVE for some time?

  110. on 10 Jan 2011 at 8:35 am 110.Severin said …

    103 Dutch
    Dutch,
    “I have no need to prove God to you.“
    But you have obligation!

    If you came to a debate with other people who do not share your opinion, with a claim that god exists, you obviously HAD some intention. For example to convince atheists that god exists.
    In that case, you HAVE to offer proofs, it is expected in a debate, it is a decent, a kind, a fair way of debating.

    If you don’t want to debate, don’t! But if you like it, it would be fair to offer some evidences for what you claim.
    Otherwise debaters will just neglect what you say. No one will take you seriously.
    In that case you can expect some mocking, of cours, but not for long: debaters will just stop answering you after they see you are only CLAIMING something, without making efforts to support it.

  111. on 10 Jan 2011 at 11:03 am 111.Severin said …

    “…BUT I hardly work to realize them…”

    What I ment was:
    I work A LOT to realize them, and do not wait someone to realize them for me….

  112. on 18 Feb 2011 at 6:07 am 112.Riteous1 said …

    This guy is a tool who will burn in the depths of hell for his sins

    REPENT AND YOU WILL BE SAVED BY HIS HOLINESS

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